Peter Greene: What I Dont Want to Hear About the Pandemic

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1. Susan L Osberg says:

   November 15, 2021 at 10:16 am

   Yes, I agree. The garbage and denial is getting very very old.

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2. Flerp says:

   November 15, 2021 at 10:24 am

   Here’s a typical photo of our Governor here in New York. Also, here’s a typical statement instructing everyone that as the holiday season is upon us, we all must get vaccinated and wear masks.

   Is this you? Yet we should all wear a mask now? https://t.co/N6ZCpHpD5w pic.twitter.com/V56RrWpGDK

   — Justin Spiro, LCSW 🇮🇱 (@Jusrangers) November 14, 2021

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   • Joel Herman says:

     November 15, 2021 at 5:59 pm

     And your point is .

     https://variety.com/2021/legit/news/broadway-will-require-audiences-and-performers-to-be-vaccinated-for-covid-19-1235031419/

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     • NYC public school parent says:

       November 15, 2021 at 6:28 pm

       Gov. took off her mask to take a photo. That means no one should wear masks.

       The Gov. made a mistake. Should we lift all mask mandates in NY because of it?

       The thing is that people on the far right don’t want to have a real discussion about mask mandates. In fact, have you ever really heard flerp say he wants all mask mandates banned? Of course not. He just occasionally invokes a story about a poor 5 year old in kindergarten class having to wear masks or a Gov. who forgets to wear one in a photo. Innuendo that mask mandates are bad without having to defend it.

       I support mask mandates. I don’t expect everyone to always be wearing a mask because people forget — I have done so myself.

       I do expect that when reminded that they are supposed to be wearing a mask, they put one on instead of acting like an entitled jerk and saying that they will not.

       Some people get a lot more joy out of “gotchas” than in just seeing if the person who made a mistake is a jerk or tries to rectify their mistake.

       I didn’t know the law called for harsh punishment for those who forget to wear a mask, are reminded they forgot, and then put one on. The law expects people to forget at times.

       I have seen obnoxious folks not wearing masks on purpose, who refuse to wear masks when reminded of the law.

       And they are very different than folks who forget and put on the mask when asked.

       But for people who feel victimized by Democratic politicians who support mask mandates, I can understand how upset this photo would make them.

       (full disclosure: I have forgotten to put on my mask sometimes. full disclosure: when I am reminded of it, I apologize and thank the person and put on my mask. Does that make me a hypocrite for supporting mask mandates?)

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     • Flerp says:

       November 15, 2021 at 6:51 pm

       Ah, so being vaccinated means you don’t need to wear masks, got it. Thx, Joel!

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     • NYC public school parent says:

       November 15, 2021 at 7:34 pm

       Very confused with the above answer.

       Is flerp saying that vaccinated people should NOT have to wear masks at any time in any place, starting right now? Does flerp think it is a terrible idea that Democrats like Hochul wants to wait to lift mask mandates until they see whether the next few months bring infection rates and hospitalizations down or increase them?

       Because if that is flerp’s position, I strongly disagree that everyone who is vaccinated should be exempt from wearing masks now. Especially as we know that vaccine protection does wear off.

       If flerp supports some mask mandates for vaccinated people, then seems like he is a lot more of a hypocrite than a Gov. who forgets to wear a mask.

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     • Joel Herman says:

       November 15, 2021 at 8:38 pm

       Flerp

       You posted 2 pictures of the Governor . Since Mid May neither circumstance required a mask and both circumstance had vaccine mandates. So is there a vaccine mandate in Schools , Is there a mandate on Public Transit . Medical Facilities require masks even with the vaccine mandate.

       Is that your objection?

       Thou doth protest too much.

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3. Linda says:

   November 15, 2021 at 10:39 am

   Relevant questions for Greene to address are, does he think Covid public policy has any impact on voting at any level of the government. How does he think the ballot box will respond related to voter perceptions about Biden’s Covid policy and its impact, like supply chain blockages and inflation.

   Relative to staff shortages, given resumed high infection rates, the need for repeated vaccinations (people’s wear-out with the process), development of new variants in the human population and increasing numbers of Covid transfer to animals other than humans which increase odds of mutation, what’s his prediction and solution.

   If Greene is right, votes for the GOP accrue regardless of Covid considerations and there will be no political fallout from restrictions that span years or decades then, we can support his sentiments….and, we can conclude about the GOP’s abandonment of democracy, c’est la vie?

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   • Joel Herman says:

     November 15, 2021 at 6:59 pm

     Why is it you think that any of those voters who object to mandates and vaccines have ever or were ever going to vote for a Democrat.

     Polio only killed <5000 people a year only infected 60,000 . Well that’s not true as that like Covid, a very large percentage of cases were asymptomatic . It took 25 years to eliminate polio in the US . And children today 40 years later still are vaccinated at rates well over 90%. Every state in the Union requires 3-4 doses to get into elementary school.

     So what is your point. As soon as every child is vaccinated the masks can come off .
     By the way if a Trumpanzee croaks “ask me if I care”. If he KILLS someone’s immune compromised Grand Ma I do .

     You already stated that the supply chain issues are not Bidens fault.
     Current Covid restrictions in the US have absolutely nothing to do with the Supply Chain. The shut downs(or threat of ) in Asia do.

     An American consumer who was not spending on leisure and entertainment is flush with cash and spending on goods . A Just In Time supply chain that corporate America bragged about the efficiency of for decades can not handle the extra demand.

     The only thing that stops an angry parent upset about masks and vaccines is a good parent who wants to” stand their ground”. And as I can see it the vaccinated far out number the un vaccinated and its time they got angry.

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     • Linda says:

       November 15, 2021 at 7:48 pm

       The right plan is for Biden to issue a national mandate? What’s it going to look like? Let’s consider how his plan will be received in the sparsely populated Upper Peninsula. Mich. is a state Biden won in 2020. In 2016, Trump won.
       Will the mandate get Biden votes or lose him votes?
       Democratic governors were forced into issuing their own mandates,
       any thoughts about anticipated consequences at the ballot box?

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     • Linda says:

       November 15, 2021 at 8:19 pm

       Other people’s perceptions may be unfairly wrong. We can be self righteous in our truth. But, after votes are counted, both groups live with the same consequences.
       Joel, we should put our faith in your assessment that Flerp’s photos don’t sway voters nor, will the Governor of Mich. lose votes based on her decisions about Covid? And, because Biden isn’t responsible for inflation, voters won’t switch to his opponent.

       On the flip side, DeSantis’ response to Covid will either have no impact on his votes or, it will cost him the election at the national level against Biden.

       Should I feel better about the chances Dems. have to win governorships and the presidency?

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     • Joel Herman says:

       November 15, 2021 at 8:51 pm

       You are assuming that voters who voted Democratic in the highest turn out election in multiple decades will swing. That swing voter is pretty much a myth.

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     • Joel Herman says:

       November 15, 2021 at 8:57 pm

       The question is will Democratic voters be motivated to show up in the same record numbers . That is a matter of passing policy and using language. Democrats have struggled with both for decades.

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     • Linda says:

       November 16, 2021 at 8:15 am

       The Va. Gov. race was a one-off in your assessment, from which we can conclude one thing. Voters can be induced to vote Dem despite variables in the political landscape?

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   • Joel says:

     November 16, 2021 at 10:10 am

     According to exit polls 85 % of the voters who voted for Trump in the highest turnout Presidential election in a slew of decades came to the polls. The turn out for Democrats was 66%. Even though that beat the turnout in 2017
     That is a 19 point enthusiasm gap.

     We don’t have to asked why those right wing voters were fired up they still prefer dewormer to vaccine.

     Why are those who voted in the 2018 and 2020 Elections for Democrats not fired up.

     Language ,message and a failure to deliver wanted change.
     The congress of the United States regulates drug prices. They do it by granting monopolies on prescription drugs. The opposite of free markets.

     Is it too much for Americans to expect that, that Democratic congress lower drug costs.

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     • dianeravitch says:

       November 16, 2021 at 11:13 am

       Biden’s initial proposal included lowering prescription drug prices but a handful of Dems and every Republican opposed it. Will Republicans win votes by promising never to lower the cost of prescription drugs? One of my drugs costs $600 a month but Canadian pharmacies sell the exact same drug for $40 a month. Big Pharma makes strategic donations to key politicians to protect its brands.

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     • Máté Wierdl says:

       November 16, 2021 at 12:29 pm

       I had an ointment in a small container which was $1800 in the US, $200 in Canada and $80 in the UK. But the doc told me, she is not allowed to write the prescription for foreign drugs, though they were the same US company’s product in all three countries. Just Canada and the UK do not give the freedom to drug companies to screw us.

       Apparently Republicans like to give this freedom.

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     • Joel Herman says:

       November 16, 2021 at 5:14 pm

       dianeravitch

       The Republican voter ,votes on “Values “. Republicans don’t need to worry about screwing them ” they have God on their side”

       There is always a handful of Democrats. No matter what the majority.
       Be it 50/50 + 1 or 60 votes.

       But Democrats do not even know how to positively frame the accomplishments they make. Because the same corporate wing of the party do not truly believe in what they profess.

       I sat down for an hour with my LI congressman back in 18. I guess he figured it was better to pamper me then be embarrassed at every Town Hall meeting. (as that there is only 1 he that is a Democrat from LI you should be able to figure it out.) . At the end he hands me an economic proposal from his “Problem Solvers Caucus” .By the end of reading it . I was ready for the vomit bag. Right down to bringing back child labor.

       But as clueless as he was at least he is not the female congresswoman from long Island who back in 15 pushed through Fast Track Trade authority moving TPP forward for Obama, one of only 26. Had he needed 27 or 40 they would have been there. And then she just voted to block drug price reform in committee .

       So my congressman likes to say he is in a competitive District. It has been gerrymandered several times . It has been Democratic for at least 40 years. I guess a 13 point margin is close.

       At least with Republicans they know they are screwing their voters . And tell those voters they are doing it.

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4. Chiara says:

   November 15, 2021 at 10:42 am

   The echo chamber issued another directive:

   “No, what happened should not surprise us. It should, in fact, deepen our resolve for the changes that so-called reformers have been seeking for decades: high-functioning, 21st century schools and districts driven by evidence instead of politics, and immediate high-quality choices and options for those who do not have access to such schools and districts.

   “Now more than ever, we need deep and lasting reforms. Opponents of such changes must be called out for what they are doing: standing in the way of what students need.”

   Anyone who opposes any ed reform plan should be “called out” as “standing in the way”

   There is no room at all for dissent in this “movement”. If you don’t 100% buy what they’re selling you are “standing in the way of what students need”.

   Say, for example, you don’t agree that launching hundreds of charter schools and pushing through massive voucher programs are “what students need”. That means you are the opposition. Don’t agree that policy makers should be pushing ed tech product? Again- no room for that opinion. Banned.

   All the decisions have already been made. K-12 will BE privatized and there will be no dissent AND all dissent that comes from outside the echo chamber will be portrayed as harming children. Just so we’re clear- the “choice” agenda is the only choice.

   https://www.the74million.org/article/lake-the-covid-crisis-cracked-our-education-system-a-new-reform-coalition-must-come-together-to-fix-it-in-the-interest-of-children/

   Supporting/improving public schools is incompatible with ed reform. They’ve already decided the system must be pitched in the trash and replaced with whatever privatized system they deem ideologically acceptable, not based on education but based on market dogma.

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5. Chiara says:

   November 15, 2021 at 10:50 am

   Can anyone criticize any ed reform plan or scheme or is that by definition “standing in the way of what students need” given that ed reformers have decided, en masse, that “what students need” will be decided in the echo chamber and is not subject to appeal or review?

   Can anyone even analyze their work? After all, they both know “what students need” and then only do “what students need”. There’s no need for any evaluation of their work at all.

   We were told in Ohio that charters and vouchers were “what students need” by these same people. How has that worked out for us? The state’s been stagnant on public education for a decade. Maybe we could ask people who aren’t wholly invested in proving their market theory correct, people who have some kind of real, outside evaluation mechanism instead of an echo chamber of their own making?

   What if I don’t think “students need” privatization? What if I’m looking at ed reform work in my own state and it was WILDLY oversold and does not perform anywhere near as well as the salespeople assured us it would? I should double down on choice? Why?

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6. Chiara says:

   November 15, 2021 at 11:01 am

   Here’s the rigorous ed reform analysis of the new charters opening up all over:

   https://fordhaminstitute.org/ohio/commentary/ohio-charter-news-weekly-111221

   100% cheerleading. It’s remarkable because many of these schools have not even opened and they are ALREADY excellent!

   As you can see, this is pure “science”. The new charters met the ideological benchmark- they are NOT public schools- so therefore the ed reform movement has succeeded.

   This scientific method they use works the other way too- all public schools are failing. You don’t have to read past the word “public” for this analysis. Charter and voucher= excellent. Public = failing.

   These are the echo chamber members you are hiring and paying to set public school policy- people who opposed to the existance of public schools. How has that worked out for public school students? Not well? Why is anyone suprised?

   The one question no ed reformer can answer? “What have you accomplished for students who attend public schools this year”? Nothing. They return no value at all to students in public schools, yet the public is paying thousands of them in government.

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7. retired teacher says:

   November 15, 2021 at 12:20 pm

   Austria just ordered an in-home lockdown for the unvaccinated. When public health is at risk, government should have the right to step in an demand compliance. Government must support the interests of the greater good. Anti-vaxxers and maskers should peddle the false “freedom” argument somewhere else. My eleven year old grandson got his first dose of Pfizer last week, and he has had no bad reaction.

   Schools are having difficulty finding substitutes. My district is offering certified teachers $10.78 per hour in schools in where there are no Covid mitigations other than the individual choice to wear a mask. They wonder why teachers aren’t eagerly signing up!

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   • dianeravitch says:

     November 15, 2021 at 12:37 pm

     Retired teacher, I agree with you. A pandemic is a public health crisis. Government must act to protect the common welfare. Those who insist on their “right” to be unmasked and unvaccinated endanger everyone else and prolong the pandemic. I hope the day arrives when they are not allowed into any public spaces—buses, trains, planes, restaurants, schools—or to work where they might cause an outbreak because of their stupidity.

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     • Bob Shepherd says:

       November 15, 2021 at 1:01 pm

       Agreed. I would add, and they might cause an outbreak of their stupidity.

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     • retired teacher says:

       November 15, 2021 at 1:17 pm

       These anti-science folks are often the same people complaining about the economy. Trying to ignore the hazards of the pandemic only prolong the drag on the economy as more people get sick, and many others stay home. It’s a defeatest downward spiral.

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     • ciedie aech says:

       November 15, 2021 at 2:09 pm

       yes, hard reality: messes like this one are how fascism gets a foothold. People are manipulated into working against their own best interests and then told that there is no solution other than hard-nose authoritarian leadership

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     • Bob Shepherd says:

       November 15, 2021 at 3:44 pm

       Exactly, RT, Ciedie!

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     • LeftCoastTeacher says:

       November 15, 2021 at 7:44 pm

       Stupidity is contagious and there are serious outbreaks of it on Twitter, YouTube, etc. The government should ban the unvaccinated from all social media first and foremost. They threaten national security. With stupid.

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     • Linda says:

       November 15, 2021 at 8:41 pm

       Bob and Ciede-
       Joel says Dems’ elections won’t be influenced by Covid ramifications that impact the U.S. nor, by government Covid public policy decisions.

       If that’s true, we better get more Dems out to vote and, we better have some selling points unrelated to Covid. And, Dems will need to have on hand a rebuttal for GOP Covid messaging. In terms of net voting outcomes, do Dems gain more with a message that they tamped down Covid deaths or, that they own the restrictive Covid mandates?

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     • Joel Herman says:

       November 16, 2021 at 6:59 pm

       Linda.

       From day one I have told my Congressman to go big or go home. I could have saved some time and aggravation by just pouring a drink and seeing if Denmark has room for American expats with a pension.

       But on the Covid question. I would be running non stop commercials in Florida comparing deSantis to Jim Jones.. The more disturbing the better. 20 thousand dead since June with vaccines available is a mass murder compared to a few hundred in NY. You do it with 501cs when Republicans complain tell them to go to hell if the shoe fits wear it . You do it now not after primaries in June . How the hell can we have 100,000 dead since June most in Red states or in Red counties of Blue States.

       But the Cult members have to be attacked as well for taking up needed hospital beds denying medical services to others who need it and infecting the vulnerable .

       “In October, 25 out of every 100,000 residents of heavily Trump counties died from Covid, more than three times higher than the rate in heavily Biden counties (7.8 per 100,000). October was the fifth consecutive month that the percentage gap between the death rates in Trump counties and Biden counties widened. Some conservative writers have tried to claim that the gap may stem from regional differences in weather or age, but those arguments fall apart under scrutiny. (If weather or age were a major reason, the pattern would have begun to appear last year.) The true explanation is straightforward: The vaccines are remarkably effective at preventing severe Covid, and almost 40 percent of Republican adults remain unvaccinated, compared with about 10 percent of Democratic adults. (Leonhardt, 11/8)”

       Yes America you are picking up the tab for these cretonne’s.

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     • Linda says:

       November 17, 2021 at 8:04 pm

       Joel-
       I read your comment. We can agree that ads take money.
       The emotional appeal of Willy Horton ads must be met with effective counter messaging. In Ohio, the Senate ads for GOP Gibbons show White h.s. players huddled in prayer, Kaepernick kneeling, show Black people in situations meant to portray riots, etc.

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   • Joel Herman says:

     November 15, 2021 at 7:10 pm

     retired teacher

     You just solved 2 economic mysteries at once. At $10.78 an hour no wonder hires in the Public Sector, mainly in education were below expectations 2 months in a row.

     And at $10.78 in the “Sh– Hole “states no wonder the quit rate is twice as high in those states than in the blue states. Those substitutes can work at Amazon for more.

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     • retired teacher says:

       November 16, 2021 at 8:29 am

       Teachers can even get remote customer service jobs that pay more than being a substitute.

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8. Chiara says:

   November 15, 2021 at 12:36 pm

   Here’s another “rah rah for charters” article from ed reform:

   https://www.the74million.org/article/indianapolis-enrollment-innovation-network-increase-pandemic/

   The “movement” is very diverse- there’s the anti-public school side and the cheerleaders for charters and vouchers side.

   There is no “pro public school side” or even anyone who does any practical or productive work on public schools, unless you count the full time professional public school critics. That’s an actual employment category in ed reform.

   Privatize! It’s MIRACULOUS. Hire a contractor and viola- all education issues disappear.

   They’ll probably get their way- they’ll get the privatized universal voucher systems they all want – I just wonder if there will ever be any kind of reckoning for how this was packaged and sold to the public, how it was over-sold and how they all over-promised and how there was so little dissent permitted in their ranks we pitched the only remaining US public universal in the trash and accepted a low value voucher as a replacement.

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9. Bob Shepherd says:

   November 15, 2021 at 12:59 pm

   Another spot on piece from Mr. Greene!

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10. Lloyd Lofthouse says:

    November 15, 2021 at 1:39 pm

    I totally agree with Mr. Greene. I’m tired of the anti-everything that is factual/logical deplorable mobs’ BS, too.

    I’m also burned out with the traitor still getting so much media attention. When the traitor lost the 2020 election, I thought we were done with him, and I breathed a sigh of relief. I thought, wrongly, that he was finally gone and we were going to get a break from his insanity.

    Now he seems worse than ever.

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    • dianeravitch says:

      November 15, 2021 at 2:38 pm

      Lloyd,
      Correct. The more distant we are from the 2020 election, the ore certain Trump is that the election was stolen. He has convinced himself that he is still president. He is delusional and dangerous. He wants to destroy our democracy.

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    • Roy Turrentine says:

      November 15, 2021 at 6:52 pm

      I find the Trump believers interesting. Perhaps they have a kinship to the people who believed fantastic visions of those who imagined the return of their vanquished culture in the past. Could it be that the more extreme believers in Qanon and Space lasers are just modern manifestations of people who believed the Ghost Dance would bring the Bison up from the ground or that the maji water would protect them from European bulletts?

      Are these people so sure that their culture is about to be vanquished that they fear everything?

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11. Roy Turrentine says:

    November 15, 2021 at 2:43 pm

    “Anecdotally, breakthrough is clearly less miserable. ” From Mr Greene’s post.

    I will add an anecdote: Our vaccinated friends came down with Covid, but did not have so much trouble with it.

    I heard, incidentally, that a study in Iowa had found the Sars-CV2 virus in a third of the deer killed in Iowa this year. (NPR, I think). I will assume that the reason they tested only dead deer was that deer are very averse to nose swabs. They probably will have no trouble social distancing, however.

    If this is true, the presence of the virus in a single species of common animal would suggest that the hope of eradicating this disease is a distant dream.

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    • SomeDAM Poet says:

      November 15, 2021 at 6:01 pm

      I don’t think anyone with any knowledge about SARScov2 ever thought it would be eradicated.

      Normally what happens is coronaviruses eventually become less virulent and become a permanent part of the virus landscape.

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12. Máté Wierdl says:

    November 15, 2021 at 5:18 pm

    I agree with Peter. Except I am beyond tired of all the BS. I actually think, it’s harmful to pretend that we are trying to understand the viewpoint of the “other side”. No, the viewpoint of the other side is as unacceptable as the viewpoint of those who not only claim that the Earth is flat but they also try to convince others about it. Like

    These people are not simply ignorant but they actually are dangerous—as are those who don’t wear masks and claim the vaccines are the real danger not the virus.

    So it’s time to treat nonmaskers as we deal with people who are dangerous to society.

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13. Flerp says:

    November 15, 2021 at 6:58 pm

    Here’s another typical photo of NY’s Governor, who has mandated that 2-year-olds wear masks all day in daycare.

    Also, NYC public school students continue to be required to wear masks at outdoor recess.

    View post on imgur.com

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    • Joel Herman says:

      November 15, 2021 at 7:19 pm

      Yes Flerp, 2 year olds can can not receive a vaccine . And in case you have not noticed, In order to go to a NYC restaurant one has to be vaccinated.

      So again what is your problem with vaccinated people, the Governor being able to socialize with out masking in NYC restaurant with a vaccine mandate. .
      When there is a vaccine mandate for all school children than see if they are required to wear masks .

      You are not going to start grieving again?

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      • Joel Herman says:

        November 15, 2021 at 7:23 pm

        I so do need the edit button.

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      • NYC public school parent says:

        November 15, 2021 at 7:39 pm

        Joel,

        Are people who go to bars in NY required to wear masks in them?

        Not sure why this photo is a problem unless she is flauting the mask mandate law.

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      • Flerp says:

        November 15, 2021 at 7:41 pm

        Young children are at lower risk from Covid than fully vaccinated adults, especially the elderly (like yourself) and the near-elderly (like Hochul).
        Every NYC teacher is vaccinated.
        Vaccinated adults can and do still get infected from Covid and transmit the virus to others. Governor Hochul and countless other adults regularly putting others at risk in settings like bars, but you will not critique that behavior because you don’t like the partisan optics.
        NYC public school students are required to wear masks outside at recess — a setting where every honest sentient being acknowledges people are at immeasurably low risk, regardless of vaccination status — while adults routinely socialize indoors and outdoors without masks. Do you care? You do not.
        Wearing masks all day is not a zero-cost NPI for developing children.

        It really blows my mind how little the most-frequent commenters on this education blog give a sh!t about the lives of children. You are a vampire and you should be ashamed of yourself. So should Diane, who presides over this horror show of a blog.

        As always, I invite being banned.

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      • Máté Wierdl says:

        November 15, 2021 at 9:45 pm

        “Young children are at lower risk from Covid than fully vaccinated adults, especially the elderly (like yourself) and the near-elderly (like Hochul).
        Every NYC teacher is vaccinated.”

        Masks are to protect others not the wearer. 2-year olds cannot keep distance, hence they do pose risks.

        https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/covid-babies-children-spread-adults-coronavirus-schools-daycare-cdc-research-b431773.html

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      • NYC public school parent says:

        November 15, 2021 at 9:00 pm

        “NYC public school students are required to wear masks outside at recess.”

        Since high school students don’t have recess, nor do they have to wear a mask when they eat lunch, this is just a nonsensical comment. Students can leave the building. They do NOT have to wear masks outside.

        Some middle schools have an out lunch, and students who eat lunch outside don’t have to wear masks.

        So now we are down to elementary school students. The ones who haven’t been vaccinated yet.

        I don’t know the rules of NYC public elementary schools about whether all the unvaccinated elementary school students have to wear masks during recess. But it’s completely outrageous that flerp believes it is with the intention of hurting kids.

        Obviously those kids are taking off their masks to eat lunch.

        If ELEMENTARY school recess requires mask-wearing (and I am still interested in seeing the specifics of that), then I am sure there was a cost benefit analysis. Like keeping masks on was less complicated than some school aides trying to police very young kids’ interactions during recess.

        Policies like this can be changed as circumstances changed. There are some parents who don’t even have kids in elementary school who are acting victimized. Are parents in elementary schools organizing against recess mask-wearing? You don’t think we’d hear anything about it? But we do know that parents who don’t have kids in elementary schools seem to be looking for someone to blame for the fact that the pandemic sucks.

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      • Joel Herman says:

        November 16, 2021 at 9:19 am

        Flerp

        There you go again . Could you please stop with the victim-hood.

        I happen to think that it impairs a child’s mental and physical well being to not be allowed to attend school bare butt naked. After all if god intended them to be clothed they would have been born with loin clothes. Of course nobody cares what I think.

        You assert that there is emotional and physical harm being done to children by unnecessary mask mandates. Do you have any scientific evidence that you can present on this subject. Or is it something that you pulled from the voodoo Doctor with Martian DNA .

        The fact remains that districts with mask mandates had 1/2 the infection rates early in the school year as districts without. I would say that those children infected suffered many multiples the harm of wearing a mask . Over 800 Children have died of Covid well over 60,000children have been hospitalized with Covid. The long term consequences for many of those seriously hospitalized we shall see.
        What was the transmission rate in school counties with mandates and those without.

        So do tell us how many died from wearing a mask . How many were hospitalized by wearing a mask.

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14. Flerp says:

    November 15, 2021 at 7:46 pm

    I want to try to more-properly format this reply to Joel so it’s seen by as many people as possible.

    — Young children are at lower risk from Covid than fully vaccinated adults, especially the elderly (like yourself) and the near-elderly (like Hochul).

    — Every NYC teacher is vaccinated.

    — Vaccinated adults can and do still get infected from Covid and transmit the virus to others. Governor Hochul and countless other adults regularly putting others at risk in settings like bars, but you will not critique that behavior because you don’t like the partisan optics.

    — NYC public school students are required to wear masks outside at recess — a setting where every honest sentient being acknowledges people are at immeasurably low risk, regardless of vaccination status — while adults routinely socialize indoors and outdoors without masks. Do you care? You do not.

    — Wearing masks all day is not a zero-cost NPI for developing children.

    It really blows my mind how little the most-frequent commenters on this education blog give a sh!t about the lives of children. You are a vampire and you should be ashamed of yourself. So should Diane, who presides over this horror show of a blog.

    As always, I invite being banned. It would save me time, and it would protect you against having to read my comments.

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    • NYC public school parent says:

      November 15, 2021 at 9:10 pm

      I am a NYC public school parent and I would like to correct the misleading statements in the above comment.

      NYC public high school students do NOT have to wear masks when they leave the building for lunch. That is the only “recess” they have. The students who stay in for lunch obviously take off their masks to eat.

      NYC middle school students rarely have “recess”. More commonly they do have “out” lunch, which means that they are allowed to leave the building and sit in a park or walk around the neighborhood eat. They do NOT have to wear masks.

      Flerp seems to be concerned specifically about UNVACCINATED elementary school students at recess. Let’s take flerp’s word for it that the unvaccinated students in grades K-5 were required to wear masks at recess.

      Why haven’t I heard more outrage from the parents of those kids about this? Lots of active PTAs who are able to get a lot of attention for all kinds of issues. And yet I never read parents on list serves trying to organize to end mask mandates for elementary school recess.

      So I guess we can just take the word of someone who doesn’t have a kid who has to wear a mask at recess that parents are upset instead of glad that their kid is being protected.

      “how little the most-frequent commenters on this education blog give a sh!t about the lives of children”

      Speaks for itself. This is not discourse. It is trolling.

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      Reply
    • Matt Metzgar says:

      November 16, 2021 at 8:47 am

      “Wearing masks all day is not a zero-cost NPI for developing children.”

      Correct. And instead of debating that issue, you get statements above like: “No, the viewpoint of the other side is as unacceptable as the viewpoint of those who not only claim that the Earth is flat.”

      So any opposing views are wrong by default. Wait a minute, let me look up the definition of an echo chamber…

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      Reply
      • Flerp says:

        November 16, 2021 at 8:54 am

        Matt, if you have a week to burn, try scouring the message boards of this blog for the last 20 months for any sign of a comment by someone other than me, Dienne, or Carol Burros expressing concern over the effect of school shutdowns on children. I’m not taking about comments arguing that schools should be opened. I’m just talking about comments expressing some kind of unease or concern about what school shutdowns might have on children. You will find exactly zero. This is why I say this blog is an absolute disgrace.

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      • dianeravitch says:

        November 16, 2021 at 11:03 am

        FLERP, if you think this blog is “an absolute disgrace,” why do you continue to read it and comment? I’m sure there are many blogs that oppose masks and school closings.

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      • Máté Wierdl says:

        November 16, 2021 at 12:38 pm

        “I’m just talking about comments expressing some kind of unease or concern about what school shutdowns might have on children. ”

        The issues that cannot be debated are those about the necessity of wearing masks and vaccines, not what you are referring to above.

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      • speduktr says:

        November 16, 2021 at 2:43 pm

        Is it possible that most people just don’t agree with you, Flerp? Why is that disgusting? The fact that most children do not get as sick, does not mean they can’t infect someone who is more vulnerable. Seeing as how we have been dealing with best guesses in handling this virus, I have been more concerned that we get too cavalier than overly strict. I know some kids have struggled more than others during the isolation imposed when schools closed, but my gut tells me that the way we deal with reopening will mitigate most adverse consequences. If we keep telling kids they are broken and damaged, then they are likely to believe it and act like it. I don’t remember everyone hyperventilating about learning loss and emotional distress when natural disasters have hit. People get on with it despite the impact such events might have had on their lives. some people have neede more support than others and should have received it although I sometimes wonder how good we are at follow through. I get the picture that you assume that few people would have been impacted if we had just left schools open. I disagree, and it seems that most people have felt the same way.

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      • Matt Metzgar says:

        November 16, 2021 at 9:32 am

        Flerp,

        Ha, don’t have that much time to burn.

        Your comment made me think about the coming San Francisco vaccine mandate for children 5 – 11. Someone looked up the data and found that no one under the age of 20 has died from Covid in San Francisco:

        https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10163695/San-Francisco-force-five-year-olds-proof-vaccination-enter-indoor-venues.html

        But it’s “to protect the children”!

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      • dianeravitch says:

        November 16, 2021 at 11:08 am

        Matt, are you suggesting that children should not be vaccinated because none of them (in San Francisco) has died yet? Where’s the science that says “take no precautions during a pandemic”?

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      • speduktr says:

        November 16, 2021 at 2:54 pm

        No child has died yet is a rather low bar for deciding whether to vaccinate children. Not dying doesn’t mean not getting very sick, experiencing long term consequences,
        or infecting someone else who does die or become exceedingly ill.

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      • Máté Wierdl says:

        November 16, 2021 at 12:42 pm

        “But it’s “to protect the children”!”

        The primary function of masks, distancing and vaccines is to prevent spreading the disease, not to protect the individual. What is so difficult to understand about this?

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      • Matt Metzgar says:

        November 16, 2021 at 11:35 am

        Diane,

        That’s not what I said. You’re starting from a different frame of reference. How about this:

        Are you saying parents should have no say in whether their children are vaccinated or not, even though there is virtually no risk of death (in San Francisco)?

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      • dianeravitch says:

        November 16, 2021 at 12:22 pm

        Let me be clear. I believe that everyone should be vaccinated unless they have a valid medical reason to exempt them.
        No one complains about mandates for vaccines for polio, smallpox, measles, mumps, diphtheria, and other contagious diseases. Children can’t enroll in schools across the nation without presenting proof of vaccination. Why is vaccination for coronavirus, a contagious and deadly disease, different? Other than a medical issue, what reason does anyone have NOT to get the vaccine?

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      • dianeravitch says:

        November 16, 2021 at 12:22 pm

        Parents should have no say about whether their children should be vaccinated unless they have a medical exemption.

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      • speduktr says:

        November 16, 2021 at 3:00 pm

        Again, a very low bar–”no risk of death.”

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      • Máté Wierdl says:

        November 16, 2021 at 12:33 pm

        Matt, is “Eppur si muove” coming to you from an echo chamber? In general, do truths come to you from echo chambers?

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      • Matt Metzgar says:

        November 16, 2021 at 12:56 pm

        Diane,

        The issue of whether children should be vaccinated is a topic of debate for those who work in the field: https://adc.bmj.com/content/early/2021/11/01/archdischild-2021-323040

        “The relatively low risk posed by acute COVID-19 in children, and uncertainty about the relative harms from vaccination and disease mean that the balance of risk and benefit of vaccination in this age group is more complex.”

        A nice summary graphic is here:

        

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      • dianeravitch says:

        November 16, 2021 at 1:49 pm

        The “pro” side of the chart vastly outweighs the “con” side. Children old enough to wear masks should wear them.

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      • Matt Metzgar says:

        November 16, 2021 at 1:08 pm

        Mate,

        “The primary function of masks, distancing and vaccines is to prevent spreading the disease, not to protect the individual.”

        I would say most people are getting vaccinated to protect themselves, first and foremost.

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      • dianeravitch says:

        November 16, 2021 at 1:47 pm

        Masks accomplish both things at the same time. They protect the person wearing the mask, and they protect the people who are near that person. I am in NYC, and most people here wear masks on the street. All people inside stores or any public space are wearing masks. Most places won’t let you in unless you are wearing a mask. Grocery stores, restaurants, pharmacies. All require masks.

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      • speduktr says:

        November 16, 2021 at 3:20 pm

        And that proves what? I won’t deny that getting my booster has made me less afraid of contracting the virus or getting seriously ill. The impetus for getting the vaccine, though, was the chance to visit my new grandson and to have his parents more comfortable coming to see us. With 40%+ of the U.S. population unvaccinated, it is hardly time to declare victory over the pandemic. I’m sure the rest of the world would agree.

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      • Máté Wierdl says:

        November 16, 2021 at 4:17 pm

        “I would say most people are getting vaccinated to protect themselves, first and foremost.”

        It doesn’t matter what people think, view, believe, see, hear; what matters is the effect of vaccination and masks to the whole population. People are ignorant, self centered, easily misled, gullible. Science is none of these, and, in this case, it serves the whole population.

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      • Matt Metzgar says:

        November 16, 2021 at 2:14 pm

        Diane,

        The pro side outweighs the con side in your opinion. That is not what the actual experts (the “science” as you say) say in this paper. In their conclusion, they state:

        “If COVID-19 remains a generally mild disease in children and in vaccinated adults, it may not be necessary to vaccinate all children.”

        You do not seem open to any other opinions on this issue, so I am probably wasting my breath.

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      • NYC public school parent says:

        November 16, 2021 at 2:18 pm

        Matt Metzgar and flerp,

        Is NOT wearing masks all day during a worldwide pandemic a zero-cost NPI for developing children?

        If anyone is arguing that there is no costs to eliminating mask mandates in public schools, it is you. Your posts are always about the costs of wearing masks and the benefits of not wearing them, so readers can only assume that you believe there is no cost to children if mask mandates are eliminated during the height of the pandemic.

        Those of us who support mask mandates also acknowledge that there is a cost benefit analysis and the cost of saving children’s lives is more urgent.

        It is fine that you believe that the lives of vulnerable children should be sacrificed for the mental benefits of other children. And that is fine if you believe that, but own it.

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      • Matt Metzgar says:

        November 16, 2021 at 2:53 pm

        NYCP,

        First, I don’t remember talking about masks before – maybe you are referring to Flerp.

        Second – speaking as someone who actually has performed cost-benefit analyses – running a true cost-benefit on mask wearing in schools would be extremely difficult.

        You would be trying to measure things like emotional impact and what not. As far as I am aware, no such cost-benefit analysis including these things has actually been performed.

        All you have are general discussion like: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7417296/

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      • NYC public school parent says:

        November 16, 2021 at 4:45 pm

        Matt Metzgar @ 8:47 am posted:

        “Wearing masks all day is not a zero-cost NPI for developing children.”

        NYC public school parent posted:

        “NOT wearing masks all day is not a zero-cost NPI for developing children.”

        Are you willing to stipulate that both are true, just like I am?

        What exactly do you want to discuss? I assume you agree with me that both are true.

        But you seem to want to be disingenuous so you don’t have to admit that banning all school masks mandates while a deadly pandemic is raging also has a cost to children.

        Both have costs. So we are back to square one — the question that you don’t want to discuss:

        What is more important to you? Supporting mask mandates in school so that fewer students die but more have mental health issues, or banning mask mandates in school so that more students die but fewer have mental health issues.

        It’s okay that you and flerp seem to support the latter. Just own it.

        This pandemic is tough on kids. But students who live in places with few or no mask mandates who lost parents, grandparents or got gravely ill themselves and are still coping with the after effects suffer just as much as the kids who are suffering mental stress from wearing masks all day.

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      • NYC public school parent says:

        November 16, 2021 at 4:48 pm

        ^^^By the way, I know that was flerp’s quote, but Matt Metzgar reposted it and then stated:

        “Correct. And instead of debating that issue….”

        Matt has a chance to debate whether NOT having mask mandates has no costs, or whether it does have some costs. Curious to see if pretending to want a debate was just a talking point for him.

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      • Matt Metzgar says:

        November 16, 2021 at 6:06 pm

        NYCP,

        You are reading a bunch of things into my statements that aren’t there.

        The proper way to frame this in a cost-benefit is to compare the default, normal condition – no masks – to the new condition – wearing masks in schools.

        So if children wear masks in schools that has costs and benefits. Or if you like, you could say the reverse: not wearing masks has costs and benefits. But that would be a strange way to analyze the issue.

        Due to problems in analyzing the costs and benefits that I pointed out earlier, I don’t have a general position on the issue. There is not enough data, and there are too many different local factors to consider.

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      • NYC public school parent says:

        November 16, 2021 at 8:05 pm

        Matt says:

        “The proper way to frame this in a cost-benefit is to compare the default, normal condition – no masks – to the new condition – wearing masks in schools.”

        Yes, the “normal condition” during the height of pandemic of taking precautions like mask-wearing versus taking no precautions like mask-wearing.

        No one has exact numbers. But either you value human life more or you value temporary mental health more.

        Most parents believe in erring on the side of caution when it comes to life versus mental health, although obviously parents have different acceptances of risk.

        But it is notable that more privileged parents seem willing to say “I would rather risk my kid contracting an illness that can be life threatening to them and their close family than risk my kid’s mental health”, and parents who have less resources are more reluctant to risk their family’s life.

        Feel free to discuss. But I disagree with you that privileged families who don’t mind taking a risk with their family’s lives because they know they will have access to top notch medical treatment should be the ones who determine what risks far more disadvantaged families must experience?

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      • speduktr says:

        November 16, 2021 at 9:08 pm

        “But it is notable that more privileged parents seem willing to say “I would rather risk my kid contracting an illness that can be life threatening to them and their close family than risk my kid’s mental health”, and parents who have less resources are more reluctant to risk their family’s life.”

        Just what do you consider privileged? I live in a very privileged community. All children wear masks in schools. If there are parents complaining, they have been overwhelmingly voted down. It is notable that more privileged parents are more likely to be able to get their concerns heard. Unfortunately, privilege does seem to lead to greater voice. However, your assumption that they are more willing to risk their children’s health because they can get better health care is ridiculous. I didn’t realize that economic status determined how much you loved your children.

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      • Matt Metzgar says:

        November 16, 2021 at 8:53 pm

        NYCP,

        I’m speaking about how cost-benefit are usually framed. For example, let’s say a town wanted to build a bridge. You run a cost-benefit on building the bridge. You don’t run a cost-benefit of “not” building a bridge. But even if you did, it wouldn’t change the conclusions: either a project’s benefits outweigh its costs or it doesn’t.

        As I said, there is not enough data on the benefits and costs of wearing masks in schools. Hence, I do not have a position.

        I did not say a single word about privileged families. You seem driven to create some type of argument here.

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      • NYC public school parent says:

        November 16, 2021 at 10:09 pm

        speduktr,

        You are picking a fight with me based on something I agree with you about!

        I support public schools having students wear masks while a once in a lifetime worldwide pandemic is still going strong.

        Of course many – if not most – privileged parents agree with that position. I am not trying to bash privileged parents in general.

        But when I read a few privileged parents who attack school systems for taking COVID precautions when those school systems have to consider the risk for the most economically disadvantaged students, I am very critical.

        It is easier for parents who know they will have access to top notch medical care to push for lifting precautions like mask mandates in public schools. The risk to their family if their kid brings home COVID is not the same as the risk to a family living in poverty if their kid brings home COVID.

        When those parents get a loud voice to push for lifting mask mandates because of their concern for their kids mental health, they are not considering that the risks to their family if they do get COVID will be mitigated by their privileged access to health care.

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      • speduktr says:

        November 16, 2021 at 10:43 pm

        I know we essentially agree. I am not trying to pick a fight. I was just very uncomfortable that you would suggest that anyone would feel more comfortable risking their child’s health because they had better medical care. Maybe I am naive, but I find it hard to imagine any parent making that calculation. Furthermore, after watching some of the viral videos of school board members being attacked, I suspect that “privilege” has little to do with the outright lunacy we are seeing these days. In addition, I seriously doubt that we are going to face a generation of children whose mental or physical health will be compromised by the public health strictures that have been placed on them. More often than not children who have not handled stress well are those who are surrounded by adults who aren’t dealing with it well either. As a retired teacher, I am much more worried about those who continue to be at risk because protocols have been ignored than those who have followed them.

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      • NYC public school parent says:

        November 17, 2021 at 12:13 am

        speduktr says: “I was just very uncomfortable that you would suggest that anyone would feel more comfortable risking their child’s health because they had better medical care.”

        I am suggesting that parents who know they have access to the best medical care and can easily quarantine their exposed child from the rest of the family might be more comfortable with the risk of their child contracting COVID than a parent from one of the low-income communities devastated by COVID who live in small apartments, with only one bathroom, which includes older generations of their family, like grandparents or older aunts and uncles living at close quarters. Especially if that low-income family also doesn’t have easy access to any health care should anyone in the family get sick.

        Most privileged parents support mask mandates not just because they want to protect their own child, but because they want to protect their community and understand that all families do not have the same resources that make having a case of COVID less deadly.

        I am fine with my vaccinated kid having to wear a mask in school and I also understand that if my kid catches COVID, the risk to our family is not the same as the risk to families who live in poverty when their kid catches COVID.

        Some people seem to want parents to weigh the personal risk to their own family having a bad outcome to the risk of their child suffering mental health problems. But that isn’t what the calculation should be. That is never what the calculation has been. Although it is the argument that parents who said they didn’t care if their kid got measles make. They don’t feel there is a risk to their child, so all unvaccinated children should be allowed to attend school.

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      • speduktr says:

        November 17, 2021 at 11:43 am

        I don’t remember mental health concerns ever being part of the measles vaccination hesitation. I thought that it centered around potentially adverse/allergic reactions peppered with a bit of religious exemption (Jehovah’s witnesses).

        Our discussion just points to the difficulty of “conversation” over the internet. I like solving the world’s problems over a cup of coffee.

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      • NYC public school parent says:

        November 17, 2021 at 3:11 pm

        Anti-vax is often framed around “parent choice”. (I am not talking about real medical or religious exemptions that have always existed).

        The idea of parent choice is often framed in terms of “allowing parents to choose which risks to expose their children to instead of bureaucrats”.

        My post was pointing out that vaccines are not simply about whether a parent wants to protect his own child or not or is willing to take a risk with the health of his own child or not.

        The right wing wants this discussion: “Who gets to decide what risk their own child is exposed to, parents or bureaucrats?”

        But the discussion we should be having is this:

        “Mandatory mask-wearing in schools is an effective way to stop community spread, lowering the chance of exposing students to COVID. There is no way to accurately measure exactly how many lives are saved and ICU hospitalizations are prevented with mandatory masking, but mask-wearing has proven to help keep cases lower. However, there is a cost as some children experience mental health issues from wearing masks, and it is also impossible to measure how many or how serious these are. While a deadly pandemic is raging, is it reasonable for a school district to err on the side of caution and require masking, despite the fact that an unknown number of children may suffer some effects from wearing a mask all day?”

        Matt Metzgar doesn’t want to have that discussion, as far as I can see. He wants to discuss “who gets to decide about their own children, parents or bureaucrats?”

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      • Matt Metzgar says:

        November 17, 2021 at 7:03 pm

        NYCP,

        Your paragraph in quotes seems perfectly reasonable to me.

        As I said before, I don’t have a position on the issue. I don’t have much interest in discussing it, because it is a theoretical argument at this point.

        I can say “I think” this. You can say “I think” that. There are no actual cost-benefit analyses done on the subject I’m aware of. So we can just argue in circles and get nowhere.

        If someone wanted to pay me to do that study, that’s one thing. But I’m not going to invest the mental energy into it for free.

        It does seem like you want to argue with me for some reason. Do you have a crush on me? 🙂

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      • NYC public school parent says:

        November 18, 2021 at 1:21 am

        Matt,

        Do you assume that all people who respond to your disingenuous posts have crushes on you, or am I special? If it makes you feel good to believe it, who am I to spoil whatever brings joy to someone’s life? As long as it doesn’t pose a danger to anyone. Do I need to worry?

        Matt Metzgar
        November 16, 2021 at 8:47 am

        (quoting flerp) “‘Wearing masks all day is not a zero-cost NPI for developing children.’

        Correct. And instead of debating that issue….”

        Matt Metzgar
        November 17, 2021 at 7:03 pm:

        “As I said before, I don’t have a position on the issue. I don’t have much interest in discussing it…”

        I respect that you have “lost interest” in debating the issue of the cost of wearing masks all day since your earlier post where you criticized people for not debating the issue of the cost of wearing masks all day.

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      • Matt Metzgar says:

        November 18, 2021 at 8:42 am

        NYCP,

        Sigh, do you not understand what a joke is? Hint: the little smiley face should have tipped you off.

        I was talking about debating the issue IN GENERAL, not between you and me. Meaning that people will take a position and not debate or even entertain the other side. If you would have continued what I wrote, I referred to: “No, the viewpoint of the other side is as unacceptable as the viewpoint of those who not only claim that the Earth is flat.”

        I’m not in this particular mask debate, because I’m not taking a side on the issue. But what I’ve seen in general is commentators like to put down their view and ignore any other viewpoints as “flat earth”.

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      • speduktr says:

        November 18, 2021 at 12:59 pm

        We all come from our particular bubbles of experience that color our view of the world. Your experience with cost/benefit analysis colors your way of approaching problems. I find it interesting even though my own particular biases would not soon lead me into that type of analysis. I taught special ed. Depending on how the cost/benefit relation was defined, some of my students would have been deemed not worth the effort. The school district definitely had to be aware of cost/benefit ratio, which was the reason we were told never to recommend services to parents that were not already available within the district AT NO ADDITIONAL COST. We could recommend the district consider an approach during in-house discussions. They could make a judgement internally without commitment. Under state law, I believe, if we suggested a service to parents the district was obligated to provide it. That is a rather long-winded approach to trying to say I appreciate you sharing your thoughts just as I appreciate Flerp’s sharing. No doubt his experience with his own son(?) has colored his view of these discussions as my long distance experience with my school age grandchildren has colored mine. While our opinions are different, I find his concerns no less important than mine.

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      • NYC public school parent says:

        November 18, 2021 at 1:37 pm

        Matt,

        Sorry, but the only echo chamber here is you and flerp. The rest of us understand that during the height of a pandemic, the choice is between minimizing deaths and hospitalizations of the most vulnerable students and their families, versus minimizing the mental health issues of the students affected by mandatory mask-wearing

        This isn’t a hypothetical. There are only two choices here — to have mask mandates in public schools or not have them. To err on the side of caution to protect the lives of vulnerable students and their families or decide that they don’t matter as much as the students whose mental health will be affected by mandatory mask rules.

        You profess to have no opinion and it’s clear that you certainly can’t defend flerp’s position. So there isn’t any reason for you to be participating in this conversation. And yet here you are, making false attacks on those whose opinion differs than flerp’s. Suddenly you have a very strong opinion against anyone who disagrees with flerp. You make false characterizations that those who disagree with flerp don’t want to debate, when it is you and flerp who don’t want to debate.

        Tell me you are taking a side without telling me you are taking a side.

        You aren’t fooling anyone.

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      • Matt Metzgar says:

        November 18, 2021 at 3:03 pm

        NYCP,

        A direct quote from someone’s earlier comment:

        “it’s harmful to pretend that we are trying to understand the viewpoint of the “other side”. No, the viewpoint of the other side is as unacceptable as the viewpoint of those who not only claim that the Earth is flat but they also try to convince others about it.”

        That is someone who doesn’t want to debate the other side.

        But this back-and-forth between us is turning into a big time-waster for me. For the fifth time, I don’t have a position on the issue. If you want to argue for masks or against, go for it. I’m not listening.

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      • NYC public school parent says:

        November 18, 2021 at 4:33 pm

        flerp – arguing against mask mandates – says: “It really blows my mind how little the most-frequent commenters on this education blog give a sh!t about the lives of children. You are a vampire and you should be ashamed of yourself.”

        Matt Metzgar says: ……crickets……..

        Another commenter – arguing for mask mandates – says: “it’s harmful to pretend that we are trying to understand the viewpoint of the “other side”. No, the viewpoint of the other side is as unacceptable as the viewpoint of those who not only claim that the Earth is flat but they also try to convince others about it.”

        Matt Metzgar says: “That is someone who doesn’t want to debate the other side.”

        Tell me you have a strong position on the issue while telling me you don’t have any position on the issue.

        Not fooling anyone. And you simply make yourself look even more disingenuous when you condone the disgusting language of one side while professing to be outraged that the other side isn’t interested in debate.

        Not fooling anyone. And, fyi, the quote from flerp wasn’t even the most offensive one.

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      • Matt Metzgar says:

        November 18, 2021 at 5:54 pm

        LOL… now you’re upset because I’m not policing Flerp’s comments? It’s not my blog, nor am I Flerp.

        One more time – Flerp said: ““Wearing masks all day is not a zero-cost NPI for developing children.” That is not a POSITION. It may imply he is anti-mask, but I don’t know what his position actually is.

        And now for the sixth time, I don’t have a position on this issue. If I had one, why would I be afraid to share it? It wouldn’t bother me if you or anyone else disagreed.

        I simply don’t have a position. This seems to agitate you, as you’ve now made me repeat it six times.

        If your goal is to exhibit your reading comprehension, you’re not fooling anyone.

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      • NYC public school parent says:

        November 18, 2021 at 7:11 pm

        Matt,

        Your refusal to condemn flerp’s many offensive comments when other people were trying to have a discussion is duly noted.

        And you still won’t condemn those comments. Interesting.

        You ignore everything offensive that indicates that an anti-mask poster doesn’t want a debate and cherry pick one comment to justify your “unbiased” opinion that he wants a debate. And you ignore multiple comments by pro-mask mandate posters that make it clear that there are many people who want a debate and cherry pick a single comment to justify your “unbiased” opinion that the other side has no interest in a debate.

        Tell me you have a very strong position against mask mandates while telling me you don’t have a position about mask mandates.

        You aren’t fooling anyone. Just calling you out. No point in posting a reply as every time you post you just provide more evidence that you are disingenuous.

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      • Matt Metzgar says:

        November 18, 2021 at 8:14 pm

        LOL! Now I’m at fault because I didn’t condemn Flerp’s comments! So do I have comment on or condemn every single comment on this blog?!!

        What’s next, I’m to blame for global warming?

        “Tell me you have a very strong position against mask mandates while telling me you don’t have a position about mask mandates.”

        For the SEVENTH time, I do not have a position on this issue. You want me to be anti-mask so you can go to war with me. If I was anti-mask, I would say so.

        But please, misconstrue my comments again. Make it sound like I am secretly anti-mask and afraid of your argument skills.

        Let’s make it an even eight times that I have to repeat myself! C’mon, let’s get to eight!

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      • NYC public school parent says:

        November 18, 2021 at 11:16 pm

        Matt Metzgar says:

        “now you’re upset because I’m not policing Flerp’s comments?”

        I’m not upset at all. Projecting much?

        I agree with you that you have no interest in policing the comments of anti-masker flerp, regardless of the content. I am just pointing that you have a very strong interest in policing the comments of someone who supports mask mandates when that person responded to flerp.

        Do police comments or don’t police comments — that is always your choice. But please don’t think your choice to only police the comments of someone who responded to an anti-masker is going unnoticed.

        There were numerous comments that respectfully debated that one quote from flerp you keep posting. You ignored all of them. You ignored that flerp showed no signs of wanting to debate. You ignored that numerous other remarks by flerp were clearly over the top. But you did find a single comment from someone who was pro-mask and THAT is what you chose to take issue with.

        I happen to think it looks worse if you keep proclaiming you aren’t biased when you obviously are. Or, giving you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you should check your biases. I don’t care either way.

        (Note: my apologies for posting this in the wrong place previously)

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      • Matt Metzgar says:

        November 19, 2021 at 8:30 am

        LOL! It continues!

        I didn’t “police” anyone’s comments. I reposted a point (not a position) that I thought was relevant. The “debate” on masks you referred to was non-existent. People were either just spouting opinions or denying others as flat-earthers.

        And wait for it… for the EIGHTH time, I do not have a position on this issue. Yet I’m biased! How can I be biased if I don’t have a position?!

        Please, pretty please, ask me to repeat it again for the ninth time. We can get to nine!

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      • NYC public school parent says:

        November 19, 2021 at 3:32 pm

        Matt Metzgar, you aren’t fooling anyone.

        There is ample evidence above that there were numerous thoughtful replies to flerp’s post, which flerp – the guy who elsewhere in this discussion posted some of the most hateful and nasty comments – chose not to reply to.

        To give you the benefit of the doubt, you believe you have no opinion on the issue, but “unintentionally” didn’t notice that flerp was not engaging in any debate, and you “unintentionally” didn’t notice all the thoughtful replies by others, so you just “unintentionally” tried to mislead readers into believing a lie: that no one but flerp wanted to have a thoughtful debate on the issues.

        To repeat, Matt says he is not biased, and it is simply a coincidence that he keep posting the lie that one side wants to have a real discussion and the other side doesn’t.

        Matt’s need to defend those who oppose masks and post lies that completely mischaracterize those who do support mask mandates speaks for itself.

        It’s really irrelevant that you claim to have no opinion, Matt. Your actions defending one side by making false attacks on the other side speaks for itself.

        I don’t have an opinion on the Trump impeachment but I know Republicans wanted to have a thoughtful, fact-base discussion about the lack of evidence, and the Democrats did not. Because here is a single comment from someone who is a Democrat that proves that only the Republicans wanted a thoughtful debate. Oh were there other Democrats making thoughtful comments that the Republicans who I present as wanting to debate this issue just ignored? I just didn’t notice because I am so unbiased.

        That’s what you sound like, Matt. You presented a false reality that one side is better, while claiming to be perfectly neutral.

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      • Matt Metzgar says:

        November 19, 2021 at 4:13 pm

        NYCP,

        Hilarious!

        “you believe you have no opinion on the issue”. So now you’re telling me what my actual opinions are?

        And why are speaking about me in the third person? Do you realize no one is listening to you at this point?

        And wait for it, for the NINTH time – I have no opinion on this issue.

        Please, keep going! We can hit ten! We can do this!

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      • NYC public school parent says:

        November 19, 2021 at 6:04 pm

        Matt Metzgar says

        “I reposted a point (not a position) that I thought was relevant. The “debate” on masks you referred to was non-existent. People were either just spouting opinions or denying others as flat-earthers.”

        So now your defense of your pure objectivity is that – in your totally unbiased opinion – no one replied properly to the “point” made by anti-masker flerp and – in your totally unbiased opinion – you felt that “point” that anti-masker flerp made was very relevant. And – in your totally unbiased opinion – none of the replies from those supporting mask mandates were relevant or qualified as “debate”. Therefore you felt perfectly justified – as the objective and unbiased observer you are – in only criticizing one side.

        Really, you make such a good argument for whether or not you aren’t biased that there is no need for me to post anything else.

        Let’s just let your interesting example of why you are simply an unbiased observer speak for itself.

        But here’s a hint for future posts: if you want to hold yourself out as an unbiased observer, you should make at least a nominal attempt to pretend you are holding both sides to the same standard. When you are this obvious, all your protestations that you have no opinion ring hollow.

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      • Matt Metzgar says:

        November 19, 2021 at 6:06 pm

        For the tenth time, I have no position on this issue.

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      • Matt Metzgar says:

        November 19, 2021 at 6:28 pm

        NYCP,

        I’m just going to copy and paste this for all future replies:

        “NYCP,

        I don’t have a position on this issue.”

        It’ll save me time. But please keep going. I want to see how long you can keep arguing with yourself.

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      • NYC public school parent says:

        November 19, 2021 at 11:09 pm

        Matt Metzgar,

        You have already made it clear that you have no position. Do you think if you post that 100x more times that no one will notice that all your posts attack one side and refrain from saying anything negative about the other?

        But lol at your explanation that the reason you keeping attacking one side and refraining from saying anything negative about the other side is because you don’t have an opinion either way.

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      • Matt Metzgar says:

        November 22, 2021 at 6:03 pm

        “NYCP,

        I don’t have a position on this issue.”

        LikeLike

15. Flerp says:

    November 15, 2021 at 9:10 pm

    Here’s some more breaking news for the vampire commenters here like Joel and NYCPP who express no interest in the daily lives of public school students:

    NYC public high school students cannot play basketball without being fully vaccinated. And they are required to wear masks while they play.

    But adults, including Governor Hochul, can go to a bar and get drunk and yell and have a great time with no masks.

    Does that make sense? Do you care?

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    • NYC public school parent says:

      November 15, 2021 at 9:16 pm

      “NYCPP who express no interest in the daily lives of public school students”

      I still have a student in the NYC public school system. Do you?

      Did it ever occur to you that not every parent has the same view as you about schools and covid restrictions?

      Fully vaccinated adults can control risks. They are not MANDATED to be in a bar for 7 hours every day, they choose it.

      Come on, you must know the difference.

      I often get incredibly annoyed at your disingenuous posts, but now I am worried about you. You have every right to feel like the situation s*cks — it does. I just don’t get why you keep looking for scapegoats in public education.

      Are private schools better?

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      • Flerp says:

        November 15, 2021 at 9:43 pm

        Oh yes the private schools are better. Students (who are universally vaccinated, along with all staff) are permitted to play sports without masks. I guess because they’re worth more than the public school kids, who you somehow know nothing about despite (purportedly) sending your own child to an NYC public school.

        It’s a really sad situation, and it wouldn’t be possible if it weren’t for people like you and Joel.

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      • NYC public school parent says:

        November 15, 2021 at 10:01 pm

        flerp,

        How can private schools have universally vaccinated students? You have already made it clear that you oppose that. The likelhood of that ever being passed thanks to anti-vaxxers is zero.

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    • speduktr says:

      November 15, 2021 at 11:14 pm

      In Illinois everyone is required to wear masks indoors and since cases are going up with the colder weather it makes total sense. I’m not sure why NY doesn’t require masking indoors, but the fact that they don’t certainly wouldn’t make me cancel masks in school. While it is nearly impossible to prove someone contracted the virus at school, it would be really stupid to assume that the school environment is somehow immune. My elementary school age grandchildren have had no problem adjusting to mask wearing, and I think we really have much more important things to worry about than whether it is fair or logical for one group to be required to wear a mask and another not. Far too many people have died to not comply with mask mandates. Why is it we rush to provide humanitarian aid when natural disaster hits but we stubbornly refuse to do our best to protect those around us from a potentially lethal virus?

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    • Joel Herman says:

      November 16, 2021 at 11:50 am

      Does the wearing of a mask by a teen basketball player playing indoors cause them any physical or emotional damage.

      Let us say that restrictions are uneven . There are economic reasons for bars and restaurants to have dropped restrictions. That does not mean that we would not be in a better place had the Nation maintained
      those restriction.

      South Korea 3136 Deaths in one of the most densely populated countries. 25 Million living in and around Seoul Multiply by 7, I am generous .350 million, that would make up for any undocumented living in America. 22,000 equivalent deaths .

      Enough of the non sense .

      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-07-04/south-korea-reverses-decision-to-ease-mask-rule-in-seoul-area

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      • NYC public school parent says:

        November 16, 2021 at 2:20 pm

        Joel,

        What value do the lives of some vulnerable children have when high school basketball players are being severely harmed by having to wear masks?

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16. NYC public school parent says:

    November 15, 2021 at 9:24 pm

    One would think that among the 500,000 or 600,000 students in NYC public elementary schools, some of the 1 million plus parents outraged that their unvaccinated elementary school child would have to wear a mask during recess would complain or organize.

    But glad they have someone who doesn’t have a kid in elementary school looking out for them. Maybe they are good with their unvaccinated kid getting a little extra protection, but their views don’t matter when a very important right wing talking point can be invoked to scapegoat Democrats for taking measures to reduce the harm caused because Republicans have nonsensically decided that during a pandemic, science and health should be turned into a partisan issue.

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    • Flerp says:

      November 15, 2021 at 9:38 pm

      If you gave the slightest rat’s a$$ about students, you would know that the NYC DOE requires elementary students to be masked anytime on school premises, including outside at recess.

      Here is a NYTimes article in which Michelle Goldberg, who presumably you would characterize as a promoter of right-wing talking points, notes the unfairness of this rule. And in which Randi Weingarten is on record as agreeing that the rule should be changed.

      You stupid, ignorant, disingenuous, vampirish, nonstop fountain of absolute horsesh!t.

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      • NYC public school parent says:

        November 15, 2021 at 9:56 pm

        Flerp,

        What is your problem? Again, this is how it works. Parents who see a rule that isn’t working pressure schools to change it.

        I don’t understand your over the top fury. I never said that recess mask mandates were necessary. I said that they only applied to unvaccinated elementary school students and I presumed that if parents were strongly opposed it would be ended UNLESS there were other factors that increased the risk to vulnerable kids.

        And public schools always have to be strict because they serve everyone and they need to consider whether they are weighing real health and safety concerns important to a small number of students against the inconvenience that others not affected don’t like.

        Peanut restrictions? Other food restrictions? Does your private school have any? Is that allowed because you personally don’t mind?

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      • NYC public school parent says:

        November 15, 2021 at 10:09 pm

        This is a comment made by a reader of that NYT article:

        There is one courageous and defiant charter school principal in the Miami-Lauderdale area. She is my wife’s oldest daughter. This evening her daughter offered that she will not ever obey any directive by Mr. DeSantis that endangers the health and welfare of students, teachers and administrative staff. Everyone shall wear masks.
        So far the neither the Governor’s office, his staff nor any member of his administration has challenged the authority of this brave principal. Everyone who comes to her school wears a mask.
        Virginia and Florida are not the only states in the union with a toxic education environment. Government has failed at every level including its ability to protect the health and welfare of children across the nation. Red states notoriously proclaim a so-called right not to wear a mask and a right not to be vaccinated .
        The result is not just war between Democrats and Republicans but it is also a loss of faith in science, technology, modern medicine and loss of respect and responsibility for our neighbors.
        Covid is a politically charged social/cultural issue. It is a war and our children and friends and neighbors are the enemy.
        Democrats need to learn how to answer the false theories and claims of criminally responsible politicians who endanger the welfare of even our vulnerable children. Until then Democrats and Republicans will not be able to return to normal.”

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      • Joel Herman says:

        November 17, 2021 at 7:25 am

        “You stupid, ignorant, disingenuous, vampirish, nonstop fountain of absolute horsesh!t.”

        Did mommy leave you in a wet diaper last night. Or did you forget to take your meds yesterday.

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      • Máté Wierdl says:

        November 17, 2021 at 9:13 am

        Can you kids stop this nonsense? If you cannot, why not continue in email? After all, it’s only you guys who read your so called “arguments” full of personal attacks.

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17. NYC public school parent says:

    November 15, 2021 at 9:33 pm

    I want to point out a very important part of mask mandates that isn’t mentioned in any of these posts excoriating the Governor.

    NYC mandates have – rightly in my opinion – distinguished between things that people can choose or not choose to do, or leisure activities.

    Thus, there are mask mandates for public transportation. Because most people can’t just intentionally avoid being in a bus or subway if that is the way they need to travel. Even taxis have mandates, because some people need to travel that way.

    There are NO mandates for people driving their own cars. That isn’t hypocrisy, no matter how much right wing propagandists pretend it is. That is the recognition that there is a huge difference between public transportation and a private car. Just like there is a difference between public school and a restaurant.

    There are mask mandates for public schools because kids are required to be in them. There are mask mandates for grocery stories because people need to shop.

    On the other hand VACCINATED adults don’t have to wear masks at bars. They are choosing a risk. Same with people sitting at tables in restaurants.

    This isn’t hard to understand. It’s being politicized by the far right, because they have nothing else to run on.

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    • Flerp says:

      November 15, 2021 at 9:39 pm

      You are disgusting.

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      • Máté Wierdl says:

        November 15, 2021 at 9:51 pm

        “You are disgusting.”

        This looks like an out of control remark.

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      • NYC public school parent says:

        November 15, 2021 at 9:58 pm

        Mate,

        I’m used to it.

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      • Joe Jersey says:

        November 15, 2021 at 11:17 pm

        If Flerp hates the Diane Ravitch blog so much, he should take a few days (weeks even?) off and try a more agreeable blog site. I was banned from a web site (New York Radio Message Board) hosted by a very conservative radio maven, Allan Sniffen. My crime? I made some unkind comments about Rush Limbaugh.
        For me, the Diane Ravitch blog is a sanctuary of sanity, reason and intelligence. We may not all agree about everything but all of us or at least 99.999% of the commenters do support public schools, universal public education, one of the truly great things about this country.

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18. Linda says:

    November 15, 2021 at 9:49 pm

    “What I don’t want to hear…”
    There is some initial research on the topic, Frontiers in Communication, May 31, 2021. The first-listed author is from N.C. State University. The article title is, “Cultural Cognition and Ideological Framing Influence Communication about Zoonotic Disease in the Era of Covid.” The article introduces the idea that varying messages to be heard by people with different political views impacts communication effectiveness.

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    • retiredbutmissthekids says:

      November 16, 2021 at 3:45 pm

      This is in the wrong place because it’s a reply to Mate–waaay up there–RE: drug prices.
      Yes, the Grizzled Old Penumbras (I can’t remember what I originally used for the G) certainly deserve blame for Big Pharma getting even…bigger, but let’s not forget those DINOs
      who’ve also been sucking on B.P.’s teat:not only the obvious Joe Manchin, but numerous others. In fact, if you look at the Top 10 who received the most 💰💰💰💰 from Big Pharma, you’ll find our fiend–er–friend Cory Booker, for starters. Insofar as I can tell, the only ones shouting about the 🤑 have been Bernie(who has even taken seniors to Canada to fill prescriptions) & Warren.
      Lots of dead air from Dems, too.

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