One of Trump’s newest and most influential advisors on COVID has urged Trump to emulate the Swedish model, keeping the economy open while waiting for the population to develop “herd immunity.” The advisor, Dr. Scott Atlas, denies that these are his views, but his advice mirrors them. Trump has said repeatedly that the pandemic will magically “disappear,” which might happen at some point. But how many lives will be needlessly lost while waiting for that magic moment? The United States has 4% of the world’s population, and nearly one-quarter of the world’s infections. Trump’s laissez-faire approach to the pandemic has not slowed its spread. There is a human cost to putting the economy over health and safety.
One of President Trump’s top medical advisers is urging the White House to embrace a controversial “herd immunity” strategy to combat the pandemic, which would entail allowing the coronavirus to spread through most of the population to quickly build resistance to the virus, while taking steps to protect those in nursing homes and other vulnerable populations, according to five people familiar with the discussions.
The administration has already begun to implement some policies along these lines, according to current and former officials as well as experts, particularly with regard to testing.
The approach’s chief proponent is Scott Atlas, a neuroradiologist from Stanford’s conservative Hoover Institution, who joined the White House earlier this month as a pandemic adviser. He has advocated that the United States adopt the model Sweden has used to respond to the virus outbreak, according to these officials, which relies on lifting restrictions so the healthy can build up immunity to the disease rather than limiting social and business interactions to prevent the virus from spreading.
Sweden’s handling of the pandemic has been heavily criticized by public health officials and infectious-disease experts as reckless — the country has among the highest infection and death rates in the world. It also hasn’t escaped the deep economic problems resulting from the pandemic.
But Sweden’s approach has gained support among some conservatives who argue that social distancing restrictions are crushing the economy and infringing on people’s liberties.
How does immunity against coronavirus work? New research shows how antibodies can block infection.
That this approach is even being discussed inside the White House is drawing concern from experts inside and outside the government who note that a herd immunity strategy could lead to the country suffering hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of lost lives.
“The administration faces some pretty serious hurdles in making this argument. One is a lot of people will die, even if you can protect people in nursing homes,” said Paul Romer, a professor at New York University who won the Nobel Prize in economics in 2018. “Once it’s out in the community, we’ve seen over and over again, it ends up spreading everywhere.”
Atlas, who does not have a background in infectious diseases or epidemiology, has expanded his influence inside the White House by advocating policies that appeal to Trump’s desire to move past the pandemic and get the economy going, distressing health officials on the White House coronavirus task force and throughout the administration who worry that their advice is being followed less and less.
Atlas declined several interview requests in recent days. After the publication of this story, he released a statement through the White House: “There is no policy of the President or this administration of achieving herd immunity. There never has been any such policy recommended to the President or to anyone else from me.”
White House communications director Alyssa Farah said there is no change in the White House’s approach toward combatting the pandemic.
“President Trump is fully focused on defeating the virus through therapeutics and ultimately a vaccine. There is no discussion about changing our strategy,” she said in a statement. “We have initiated an unprecedented effort under Operation Warp Speed to safely bring a vaccine to market in record time — ending this virus through medicine is our top focus.”
White House officials said Trump has asked questions about herd immunity but has not formally embraced the strategy. The president, however, has made public comments that advocate a similar approach.
“We are aggressively sheltering those at highest risk, especially the elderly, while allowing lower-risk Americans to safely return to work and to school, and we want to see so many of those great states be open,” he said during his address to the Republican National Convention Thursday night. “We want them to be open. They have to be open. They have to get back to work.”
Atlas has fashioned himself as the “anti-Dr. Fauci,” one senior administration official said, referring to Anthony S. Fauci, the nation’s top infectious-disease official, who has repeatedly been at odds with the president over his public comments about the threat posed by the virus. He has clashed with Fauci as well as Deborah Birx, the White House coronavirus response coordinator, over the administration’s pandemic response.
Atlas has argued both internally and in public that an increased case count will move the nation more quickly to herd immunity and won’t lead to more deaths if the vulnerable are protected. But infectious-disease experts strongly dispute that, noting that more than 25,000 people younger than 65 have died of the virus in the United States. In addition, the United States has a higher number of vulnerable people of all ages because of high rates of heart and lung disease and obesity, and millions of vulnerable people live outside nursing homes — many in the same households with children, whom Atlas believes should return to school.
Let the White House lead by example with this her immunity suggestion. No more testing for anyone, Donald Trump included.
deutsche29,
So AGREE. No more testing for that dump and his enablers.
Sweden and Covid-19:
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200813/swedens-no-lockdown-policy-didnt-achieve-herd-immunity
That dump and his enablers have no clue what they are doing? They are flailing.
Exactly. Yes, Yes, Yes.
Agreed.
Because no more testing means no more infections.
Open the White House and both Houses of Congress back up for tours. Let’s see how that turns out. Hold daily “Kool-aid” drinking sessions on the White House lawn, no mask or social distancing. All attendees must then be quarantined inside the WH, possibly in trump’s favorite bunker.
I really can’t take this garbage anymore. This is slow-moving genocide, nothing else. And now they’re going to spend $250 million ON A P.R. CAMPAIGN instead of using those funds to buy PPE, enforce regulations, economic stimulus, etc. And this election will likely be close! Even catastrophic. More catastrophic than now.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/31/hhs-contract-coronavirus-despair-hope-406361
And now the deaths don’t count. You know, like a person who’s shot through the heart and dies of heart failure. Or a person who’s had cancer dies of pneumonia. That war on language and facts is accelerating!
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-cdc-covid-preexisting-conditions_n_5f4d9514c5b64f17e141b716
What herd immunity? You can catch the regular flu over and over again every flu season. The thing that alleviates the regular flu season is the flu shot. Otherwise you can get the flu, it doesn’t go away and you are always at risk. My opinion is that there is no herd immunity for the corona virus.
So wow, will the libertarian vultures also promote Sweden’s universal health care, family leave, paternal leave and other social benefits that we can only dream of. Sweden has a unionization rate of about 60%, yeah, let’s copy that.
According to OECD via Forbes, the Swedish unionization rate in 2017 was 67%. There’s no war on unions in Sweden.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2017/06/20/which-countries-have-the-highest-levels-of-labor-union-membership-infographic/#3d2eee3d33c0
There was a recently documented case of a person in the US that has contracted Covid-19 twice. It appears that immunity deteriorates with time.
Different strand. It keeps mutating. So any vaccine or so-called immunity created by surviving it is null and void.
Herd Immunity
You might have heard
The talk of “herd”
In just a word
It’s just “absurd”
Hi Diane,
I agree with your critique of Trump’s* COVID policies and of Scott Atlas’ input. The point I raise is a small one in the grand scheme of things, but the treatment Sweden receives in the US press is less than thorough and, as a result, somewhat unfair. I acknowledge that the fatality rate there is unacceptably high; the central failure has been in the behavior of the privatized and under-resourced nursing home and assisted living sector. I follow Swedish news (broadcast and online papers); the failure in the privatized elder-care sector is reprehensible and scandalous. The bulk of Swedish COVID fatalities are on the heads of the privatizers in that sector chiefly, but also on the criminally inattentive regulators.
In society more generally, the picture is not quite as portrayed in US media. The mechanism of promoting good public health practices has been the making of recommendations rather than the issuing of executive decrees, and the population has largely followed them. Travel wasn’t formally restricted, but plummeted. Businesses weren’t ordered closed, but most people started working from home because it was safer. Public transport wasn’t closed, but people were advised not to use it unless necessary—and ridership almost disappeared. And over time, government did respond when encouragement didn’t result in appropriate social distancing and use of PPE—far too late in relation to nursing home conditions, but much more quickly when restaurants became crowded in the summer. Having learned from previous failures, and alert to emerging threats, the government acted to close down offending restaurants and discourage outdoor congregating (spreading organic material as fertilizer on some town parks as a novel…application).
To recap, the fatality rate in Sweden is unacceptable and tragic. But one sector is chiefly culpable. The larger story there is better than reported (again, not excusing the failure to adequately protect vulnerable elderly citizens), and is so due to the mutual respect between the government and the citizens. That approach can’t work in the US in most jurisdictions because the citizenry includes far too many reckless actors with no respect for medical expertise.
Finally, the goal of Swedish policy has not been herd immunity through infection. We all will eventually achieve ‘herd immunity’ from COVID as from other diseases when effective vaccines are available and when enough people are vaccinated (God help us if the anti-vacciners multiply!). The goal of Swedish policy has been to control the spread of the virus through recommended good public health practices, to protect vulnerable populations (at which there has been catastrophic failure in one sector), and to develop vaccines as quickly as possible. It has not been to ‘let the virus burn through the population.’
Thanks for blogging and for keeping truth in circulation!
All the best,
Mark
*I agree with all of your critiques of Trump, DeVos, and the whole mess! __________________________ Mark LaCelle-Peterson, Ed.D. m.lacelle.peterson@gmail.com Voice/Text: 585-298-1694
>
Herd heard?
Although the word
Was never heard
The goal of herd
Was first referred
(And pot was stirred)
By Swedish nerd
Key quotes: Sweden’s top epidemiologist challenges conventional wisdom on COVID-19
byJennifer Dorroh
May 11, 2020 in COVID-19 Reporting
“Our goal has always been to keep the level of spread down low enough for our health system and for society as a whole to keep on functioning at a good level. And I think we have managed to do that in Sweden with, of course, the very sad exception of the high death toll we have,” he said. “We also know that eventually we would get help from the immunity in the population to keep the level of spread down. And in the long term, only a level of immunity in the population will keep the spread down to a reasonable level until we have a vaccine, which is going to be quite far off.”
“We think that the now-slowed decline of the number of cases in Stockholm is due to the level of immunity in the population because we do see a drop of cases and we haven’t really changed any measures for the last four or five weeks”
We are now getting results from several countries showing that our Nordic neighbors, maybe 1 to 2 percent of the population are now immune, while the estimate for Sweden is around 25 percent. So of course, we are much further into this epidemic, and much closer to having a level of immunity in the population. That would help us very clearly to keep a low number of cases every day while having a very open society,”
//// End of quotes
Thanks for this nuanced response, Mark Lacelle-Peterson. It is interesting, there seems to be a parallel between the “privatized and under-resourced nursing home and assistant living” sector [w/ deadly results], and Sweden’s ’90’s buy-in to privatized/ charterized schools, which resulted in a swift decade-long dive in PISA scores. Both are anomalies in Scandinavia. The latter resulted in media attention, public concern & govt action to rein in the private sector & hold it accountable (not sure how that turned out). Hopefully the covid scenario will do likewise for eldercare. In any case it is helpful that you draw the contrast between our two cultures: clearly there is more trust in govt there than here.
Ah! Rasputin has arrived.
Putin
Putin bad
Ras or Vlad
My shortest poem yet.
Putin on the Ras
If you’re blue and you don’t know
Where to go to, why don’t you go
Where strongman has
Putin on the Ras
Different types, who wear a trench coat
Pants with stripes, and cut away coat
All that jazz
Putin on the Ras
Oh, perfect, SomeDAM.
” the country has among the highest infection and death rates in the world”
I don’t buy that. There are many countries with higher rates than Sweden at 575 per M.
Looking at US states with population 10M:
NJ, 1804, over 3x Sweden
MI, 676
GA, 530
OH, 355
NC, 261
Is NC really the example of best practices, and NJ the worst? Where is the correlation between good actions and good outcomes? I don’t see that, at all. Looks like it is mostly luck to me. I think the conclusions being drawn are more flimsy than the conclusions of value added measurement of teachers.
I think it is more informative to look at the graphs tracking the curve of positivity rates between March & present. Rampant spread came first to densely-populated NYC metro area (incl NJ), via Europe. Many lessons were learned there; that area now has maintained very low rate for months. MI, GA, OH, NC had time to learn those lessons yet all have risen after those lessons could have been learned, & are fluctuating above the % positivity rates reqd for their degree of reopening they have recently embarked on.
Pursuing a national policy here in the US whose goal is “herd immunity” through natural infection (without a vaccine) would be foolish beyond belief.
Athough there is no universally accepted definition for herd immunity, many scientists believe it requires that somewhere around 60-70% of the population have to have immunity.
First, it’s still not even clear that having covid19 once provides lasting immunity from a virus that may be mutating (and there is documented evidence of at least one person who has had covid19 being reinfected with the virus (although they were asymptomatic the second time)
But if one assumes that getting the virus once does provide lasting immunity and one also assumes that 60% of the population would need to be infected , in the US that would require that about 200 million people be infected. If one assumes a death rate of 1% (about 1/3 the official reported death rate of 3%), that would mean a death toll of about 2 million people. Even if one assumed a death rate of 0.5% , that would mean about 1 million deaths.
In short, pursuance of such a policy would be the very definition of insanity.
Atlas Shrugged
Atlas shrugged
“It’s how I feel:
The millions bugged?
It’s no big deal”
What if it’s not?
It would be insane to pursue a national policy with such potentially grave ramifications (quite literally) that depends on such an assumption.
The official infection rate for the US stands at about 1.5%. the CDC estimates (guesses?) that the actual infection rate may be between 6 and 24 times that, ie, between 9 and 36%.
So, between 1.5% and 36% of the population have been infected?
That’s a lot of uncertainty just about the percentage who have been infected so far.
Add to that the uncertainty about what percentage of the population must have been infected to provide “herd immunity ” if such a thing indeed exists for this virus (which is still by no means certain)..
The upshot is that any model about supposed herd immunity has a great deal of built in uncertainty.
It’s foolish to assume otherwise.
And it would be foolish to pursue a national approach toward the virus that depends on attaining herd immunity without an effective vaccine.
We’re going to find out eventually one way or another. We can discuss then. Either way, the country will be smoldering wreck, so I don’t think there’ll be much occasion for I-told-you-sos.
I’m just making observations and asking questions at this point. I’m so far gone, I’ve largely lost interest in the outcome.
The issue here is actually NOT who is right and certainly not a matter of I told you so.
The issue is whether it is wise RIGHT now to pursue herd immunity as a policy goal GIVEN the current considerable uncertainty involved and without an effective vaccine in hand.
The subject of what percentage of the population has to possess immunity is certainly important and may be virus dependent but it’s the sort of thing one needs to have a good handle on before one adopts it as a guiding principle of even policy goal. And that ASSUMES one has a vaccine.
In the case of the current virus,neither of those two is true.
I should have said the issue is not who turns out to be right after the fact.
Who is right about the percentage required for herd immunity (or whether it is even possible for this virus), that is
Lest anyone believe mine are just the ramblings of a foolish pretend poet..
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/from-our-experts/early-herd-immunity-against-covid-19-a-dangerous-misconception
https://www.jhsph.edu/covid-19/articles/achieving-herd-immunity-with-covid19.html
But as i indicated, the basic idea of setting herd immunity as a policy goal without a vaccine is flawed and very dangerous.
And one need not know what percentage of the population needs to be immune to a particular virus or even be an epidemiologist to understand that.
Ok
FLERP, it’s hard to have interest in the outcome when one feels helpless. We do what’s needed to keep our regional area safe, but a bunch of doofuses elsewhere are fomenting a spread that may end up at our door, prolonging our need to keep the curve down while our businesses suffer. And meanwhile those s***forbrains are producing a sucky national outcome that will come to our economic doorstep regardless.
We might as well have a Saturday night Lottery. If your number is drawn, then you show up a the town square to be shot at sunset. The notion of herd immunity is just as foolish.
The concept of herd immunity was intended as a guiding principle for the case in which there is a vaccine.
It was NOT intended for the case in which there is not.
It’s the height of ignorance for people to believe that we can save the country by quite purposefully getting millions of people sick.
Reminiscent of the “destroy the village to save it” mentality that was used in Vietnam.
Herd immunity is more like “let the weak ones die out,” rather than destroying the village to save it.
I suspect that the Trump people calculated in the spring that most COVID deaths were elderly people or minorities in blue states. Why should they care?
Sounds like something they would think or do.
They should care.
Lots of elderly people traditionally vote Republican, especially in Florida.
“Sweden’s per capita death rate was 35 per 100,000 as of May 15. Meanwhile, Denmark’s death rate was 9.3 per 100,000, Finland’s 5.2, and Norway’s 4.7. All three neighboring countries enacted stricter policies. For comparison, the United States had 24 COVID-19 deaths per 100,000 as of May 15.”
In August, the BBC reported, “Coronavirus: Sweeden’s economy hit less hard by pandemic”
“Sweden, which avoided a lockdown during the height of the Covid-19 pandemic, saw its economy shrink 8.6% in the April-to-June period from the previous three months. However, it was still the largest quarterly fall for at last 40 years.
“The European Union saw a contraction of 11.9% for the same period.”
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-53664354
Translated, Trump needs to win the election and he thinks the economy is the key so he does not care how many Americans die if their deaths will improve his odds of winning in November.
I hope Trump is reading this because I have a suggestion fo him. Since his loyalist followers listen to him like he is a god, Trump should urge them to ignore all the safety protocols and go out and become immune or die for him to prove their loyalty. In short, everyone that plans to vote for Trump should throw COVID-19 parties and make sure to invite as many infected people as possible to show up and share the virus.
WTH does neuroradiologist know about epidemiology?!
Love this: “’Epidemiology is not the only discipline that matters for public policy here. That is a fundamentally wrong way to think about this whole situation,’ said Avik Roy, president of the Foundation for Research on Equal Opportunity, a think tank that researches market-based solutions to help low-income Americans.” We’ll be calling on him soon to rescue the bulk of Americans, all low-income thanks to govt failure to follow epidemiological recommendations. Hope there’s a market left for his “market-based solutions.”
Meanwhile looks like the “herd immunity” theory will be fading soon. Global scientists are already studying the first few patients proven to have become reinfected w/n 3-6 months of recovering from covid (a couple got a milder case second time, others a more severe case). This isn’t the measles or the whooping cough, folks. It’s a coronavirus. (So is the common cold). We may well be dealing w/a virus that has short-lived immunity. Hopefully, one that can be avoided via regular inoculation (when we find a vaccine). Stay tuned.
Epidemiology is not the only discipline that matters for public policy here.”
Indeed. Lots of other disciplines matter:
Plumbing, for example.
And trash collecting.
And Think Tank wanking.
(My apologies to plumbers and trash collectors for listing them with think tank wankers, who provide nothing of any value)
One thing is certain.
There will always be a market for con artists.
Even if by some miracle covid-19 turns out to be a one-&-done for most [i.e., lifetime immunity], a herd immunity policy should be stopped in its tracks by calculating the healthcare cost of treating longterm after-affects for the “recovered.” Aside from the issue of hundreds of thousands more dead due to herd immunity policy… There could be millions more “recovered” w/ lasting damage. Much data still to be collected, but what we have so far doesn’t look good: compromised heart, lung, & other organ functions. July Swiss study: MRI’s showed 78 out of 100 “recovered” patients aged 37-56– 2/3 of whom were asymptomatic or had such mild symptoms they recovered at home– manifested ongoing heart inflammation two months later. That’s an issue which sometimes resolves on its own, but more often requires immediate treatment to avoid the sort of damage one observes after heart attack.
it45 is flailing– herd immunity is not even a a hail mary move, just a floated idea– a winging-it posture two months before election, designed to play well among rwnutjob libertarians who maybe were thinking of abandoning him as rural covid spread comes too close to their doorsteps.
I long for a president who has the ability to pull people together and speak calming words. [Think of Obama.] Trump thrives on chaos, destruction, hate and bigotry. I guess now that COVID-19 is under control we can all forget about the pandemic that has killed at least 183,000 Americans. /s
[It’s only whites who are ‘violently attacked’. Getting shot 7 times in the back in front of children doesn’t count as violent.]
Trump says, “Reckless politicians far-left politicians continue to push the destructive message that our nation and our law enforcement are oppressive or racist. They’ll throw out any word that comes to them.”
Video: Trump Focuses on ‘Violent Mobs’ During Kenosha Visit
President Trump visited Kenosha, Wis., and met with local sheriffs and Republican leaders despite the objections of Democrats, who said his presence could inflame tensions.
Video: Trump Defends Kyle Rittenhouse
President Trump said Mr. Rittenhouse, the 17-year-old who has been charged in the killings of two people in Wisconsin, was “violently attacked.”
Why Are So Many Americans Willing to Support Hate & Division?
Sep. 1, 2020 3:36 pm
By Thom Hartmann
Donald Trump has told us that only 9000 people have died of the coronavirus in the United States, that shooting an unarmed man in the back seven times is like a bad putt at golf, that protests are being led by an airplane full of black-jacketed “thugs,” and refused to condemn a vicious murderer who killed two people and blew the arm off a third. Now, he is threatening the Mayor of Portland with federal troops again.
Which raises the question, is this the America the majority of voters want to live in?
A country where the police act as an occupying force and are immune to oversight or discipline? A president who pits people against each other based on their religion or the color of their skin? An administration that lies about science as over 200,000 people die? Corrupt former lobbyists in charge of virtually every federal agency? Cutting the Social Security tax so the entire program collapses by 2023?
If the polls are any indication, almost half of America is right there with him.
Why is this?
Is it that racism is so deeply ingrained in the white community that white people will regularly turn out to vote for politicians who use racial dog whistles? It certainly has worked for the majority of Republican candidates since the Democratic Party embraced the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act back in the 1960s.
The main subtext of Donald Trump’s sales pitch, and of the Republican convention, was, “Black people are coming to move into your suburban neighborhood, and only Republicans can stop that.” and there has been no meaningful pushback against that in the GOP.
Or is it that, as the nations sinks into deeper poverty and the American dream becomes more and more distant, that people are longing for job safety and economic security and are those more vulnerable to an authoritarian message?
Numerous studies show that conservative voters have more authoritarian tendencies, and that Trump followers are at the top of that list. For example, in a recent poll they overwhelmingly supported the military running the United States, which is about as police-state-authoritarian as you can get and completely inconsistent with America’s founding principles.
Or could it be that it’s both? That right wing media like Fox News and hate radio have succeeded in selling racial fear so effectively that white people with even modest racist inclinations are willing to embrace violence and authoritarianism?
Right now, nobody knows the answer. But the fate and future of both the United States and democracy around the world hang on our understanding it.
-Thom
These grieving family members are better at putting Americans together than the hate-filled Orange Dictator-in-Waiting.
…………………………………….
Jacob Blake’s Family Rebukes Trump’s Visit
At the corner where Mr. Blake was shot, hundreds gathered for a “Justice for Jake” rally to promote community healing and to rebuke President Trump’s visit to Kenosha, Wis.
This is horrendous. The WH can’t get voters by being truthful so lies, distortions and manipulations is acceptable.
………………………..
White House social media director Dan Scavino tweeted a manipulated video that depicts Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden as asleep in a TV interview.
https://wapo.st/31OmECw
& now, because Kenosha citizens “behaved” in accordance w/it45’s visit (could it be that or was actually due to a lack of those gun-toting boogalu boyz {or whatever they’re called}/outside agitators purposely did NOT appear on the scene to stir things up?
So now, of course, due to that lack of agitation & threats against BLM & others, it45 is boasting that it brought the peace & calm, & settled everything in Kenosha!
Without referring once to Jacob Blake, or wishing he & his family “well” (as he did to Ghislane Maxwell, who he really didn’t know, but, yes, he probably met her because they were all in Palm Springs, but, no, he really didn’t know her, never met the woman or
Jeffrey Epstein, but probably saw them at the club…)
Your wrong, try to divorce yourself from the nattering masses. Sweden for whatever reason has left the virus behind. Months from now their position will be overwhelmingly superior against those foolish enough to remain hidden under the bed.
Gillihan,
Worldometer says you are wrong about Sweden.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Its death rate per million is 580.
Compare it to similar countries, where the death rate is far lower:
Denmark: 111 per million.
Norway: 49 per million.
Finland: 62 per million.
Austria: 85 per million.
Switzerland: 235 per million.
What’s your evidence that the Swedish approach was successful?