Sara Roos was part of the protest against police brutality in Los Angeles. She joined the crowd that assembled to express their views on-violently. When she felt a change in mood or direction, she left. She took pictures along the way. She concluded that “Black Lives Matter. The Truth Matters.”
She wrote, as the protest began,
A veteran of a fair number of protests, this rally was not like any other. It felt intense, powered by focused anger, but not aggressive. I never once felt unsafe or as if the crowd were out of control. People were mad but not hostile. It sounds like a pedantic distinction but there you have it, there was no feeling of impending violence. None at all. Collective fury but not belligerent: coiled vigilance.
As she left, she wondered if the peaceful protest was hijacked by agents provocateurs.
Diane Ravitch's blog 
The meme of “outside agitators” has a disreputable history. Authorities have a long history of mobilizing disaffected, wretched and criminal “outsiders” to do the ugly work of oppression and conquest. The French Foreign Legion. Quantrell’s Raiders in the Civil War. The British “Black and Tan” thugs who killed Irish civilians during the Easter Rebellion.The right-wing Cubans organized by the CIA to invade the Bay of Pigs; the right-wing Contras armed and financed in Nicargua during Reagan’s years; Nazi scientists repurposed, like Wernher Von Braun. SEALs acquitted of murder even when fellow SEALs testify against them. The status quo needs rogues to maintain itself. Trump now demonizes “Antifa”–the Antifascist Group which protected counter-demonstrators when neo-Nazis stormed into Charlottesville(Cornell West recounted being rescued from neo-Nazis threatening a house of worship by Antifa). The resurrected meme of “outside agitators” not only lacks evidence but the riots it mis-explains can be understood in other ways too lengthy to go into here, thanks for your attention.
Ira, I share your distrust of anyone who invokes “outside agitators.” The civil rights movement was smeared with that label many many times. Yet I did wonder whether Trumpsters joined in as a way to discredit legitimate protestors and attack the press.
I agree. And while some of them may just be general anarchists, the fact that there are young white people coming into peaceful demonstrations and destroying property, then running away, is clearly suspect and benefits only Trump.
I’m glad they got the 2 Catskill sisters in NYC — they were white and one (Samantha Shader) threw a molotov cocktail. I hope their associations are looked at very closely. They weren’t there to join protests against racism. They were there to commit violence. it was only their own stupidity that led them to be caught and it seems as if the police are not focusing on those people but on peaceful protesters who get attacked for simply blocking a street or being out after curfew.
Many people have lost their jobs, and the flimsy social safety net is not helping them enough. Many others still have jobs, dangerously unhealthy jobs; their wages are not enough to pay for basic necessities; and still, they are constantly threatened with firing for not meeting barely possible quotas. People who protest are cast aside by society. The Uber economy has ruined too many lives. Not even government jobs are safe any more. A free lunch or two from a school district or food bank doesn’t cut it. Remember that the March on Washington was for jobs, not for wearing pussy hats or holding hands and singing “Free at Last” around the table of brotherhood.
What is causing the violence? Not agitators, poverty. Desperation among the many, caused by poverty. The perpetrators are victims. https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-05-30/dont-understand-the-protests-what-youre-seeing-is-people-pushed-to-the-edge
“The perpetrators are victims.”
In a sense, this is true of any perpetrator of any crime. But there is a limit to that way of thinking, I think.
At the same time, can anyone seriously deny that two-plus months of lockdowns and 40 million jobs lost have created more than anything else to creating this nationwide tinder box?
I suppose another thing I am saying is that peaceful protests don’t do much unless they go along with actions that cause fear among the oppressors, like Gandhi shutting down all of India with a national day of prayer or getting people to burn their passports, like King boycotting the buses and shutting down the Montgomery economy, or like labor strikes.
So, I have an idea for a peaceful protest that would do a lot more than just voice opposition: everyone boycotts Microsoft, Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Netflix, and Google. That would send shivers up the billionaires’ spines. No good jobs? No monetized data!
LeftCoastTeacher,
You linked to a very interesting op ed by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, who very likely is a 1%er. He was explaining the rage rightly felt by those who have watched this kind of racism being ignored over and over again. And who are also victimized economically by racism.
But his op ed did not try to justify two white sisters from the Catskills using the protests about racism to further their own agenda by intentionally causing harm to police under cover of protesting racism.
I get that white people feel they are also victimized by those in power and Trump has certainly promoted the view that they are the real victims here and it is African Americans who get “special treatment” while the poor white people suffer from “reverse racism”.
But these protests are about racism, which is why a 1% like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar wrote that op ed. Racism causes economic and life hardships that isn’t addressed by simply being “for the working class”.
When racism makes it near impossible to walk safely and confidently down the street, people attack everything that is part of the racist culture. When racism makes it near impossible to make a living, people take what they can if they can. All the elements of rioting are related. Government needs to help people instead of cracking down on them. Black lives matter. Black salaries matter.
By the way, discussing Kareem and his lifelong struggle against discrimination reminds me of when his name was Lew Alcindor. John Wooden showed him respect. Great book by Wooden, Pyramid of Success. Great lessons about bringing the greatness out of others instead of punishing them when they’re not so great.
Hello Diane–It may be that Trumpster dirty politics or Black Ops have sent rioters to discredit the protests. Only skilled investigative journalists can track this down. Best to wait for evidence. The vast majority of protestors now and in previous movements are not rioters, looters, or arsonists, I’m sure you agree. Very hard for the bulk of the protest to discipline the wings or protect against infiltration. The status quo has always infiltrated opposition, parties, unions, and movements with spies, informers and provocateurs. The Molly Maguires in 1877 were betrayed by an infiltrator pretending to be a miner, and this led to their being executed by the state. Trumpsters are a panoramic threat to democratic opposition, yes, but the knee-jerk response of St.P Mayor and MN Gov and Trump to demonize the left and Antifa is a dark side of American history, so we should drop “outside agitators” as a meme, IMO, and gather evidence, like you always do to our benefit.
Thanks, Ira.
Please read Joe Nathan’s recent comment, which is very disturbing. Opportunists are jumping in to reap the spoils and/or discredit the protest.
You cam be angry at me or say that I’m being inflammatory, which is not my intention, but this is the very strong seedling of a revolution that has been forthcoming. The oppressed, having institutional memories of wealth distributed differently and those who still don’t have their piece of the pie, are both fed up with the establishment. This violence is not just about race, but also about class. It is the untold tale, the silent yet blaring clarion, the suppressed existence that corporate media cares not to tell and the true narrative that falls on politicians’ deaf ears.
It is what it is. I wonder if the plutocrats will react like FDR and really acknowledge that the populist anger out there is against their interests and their literal safety. I wonder if they will yield and realize that their CEOs making 460 times the salary of an average employee is not worth the deaths of the guilty and the innocent.
I wonder . . . . I really do. Will they fear the wrath of the working class and poor the way FDR warned to the oligarchy in his time? Is this a another up and down cycle or a purging of sorts to start anew? Will it get better? Will we turn into China or Russia? Will we have to get a lot worse before we get better? Will most people in the USA lose their labels and identity politics and realize what all humans need universally per their dignity, their limitations, they frailties, and their need to live without want? I conjure up the Norman Rockwell
paintings, hosted in a museum not far from where I am living.
I’m sorry it has had to come down to violence, but it also has factual (maybe not philosophical) rhyme and reason.
I’m not sure where one goes from here, and am admittedly still trying to figure it out . . . .
So much head spinning . . . Will those protesting and who are “herding” infect each other or others not in the crowd? Will the virus remove bad officials, such as McConnell and Graham? Will it claim more casualties who are decent people?
Will it get me?
How many people will have to be maimed or die in the protests to prove a point, and will it result in change and to what extent? Why is it so controversial to admit that the blood stains of slavery are still not faded and the sins of the antebellum economy still are deeply rooted in the American psyche in both blacks and whites, rich and poor and in between? Why NOT reparations made? Why NOT 40 acres and a mule? It would have been perfect to split up the plantations and deed, with ownership, the land to those whose backs and spirit and intellects it broke, to those whose lives and dignity it viciously stole.
We have no other choice but to get in touch with ourselves, with each other, with reality, and live and work through this all. We will be the better society for it . . . .
All good points, Robert. Reactionary forces are feeding off of this. Saw commercial for the first time today from the Idiot’s campaign and it began by calling him “the bull in the china shop.” For them, this is a virtue. It’s a major step toward consolidation of an American fascist dictatorship. Vlad is doing a lot of vodka shots tonight.
Diane About the label “outside agitators,” with the advent of technical communications, it’s not as much about geographic differences any more (as with the freedom riders). Rather, it’s more about ideological differences; e.g., the legitimate peaceful protesters as distinct from looters and the purveyors of violence–as part of that quite-different ideology.
It always was about differences in ideologies and motivations. It’s just that now you cannot find evidence of the “outsider” on one’s driver’s license. CBK
I woke up this morning to see that journalists and camerapeople were being attacked and, it seemed to me, from both some of the protesters AND some of the police, but not from everyone . . . . very confusing.
I found myself wondering about Trump’s open hostility towards the Press at his rallies and in his tweets–and his not-so-tacit call for violence towards them . . . that may account for some of the protesters. Then there are some of the the police and their contempt for the requirement of transparency when they are up to no good . . . in this case, expressions of racism that still exist in the U.S.
But Trump is definitely a “kill the messenger” kind of guy . . . of course only if the messenger is telling the truth about Trump. There seems to be no room in Trump’s thought for truth when truth goes against what Trump wants. And then Barr comes out this AM with a nice anti-violence speech . . . “nice” . . . until he labeled the violence-makers extreme “left wing.” (Please stop with the weaponizing and politicizing everything under the sun!)
I don’t know what they’ll find out when the whole thing is over, but for me: KUDOS to the press for hanging in there. But I am thinking that the protesting that’s going on is a SOUP made from many different sources, of some under the table money, and some of “up-to-here-with- it-all” anger . . . anger that has Trump as a good part of its meat as well as its seasoning. CBK
The CNN headquarters in Atlanta was attacked, which made me wonder about who was leading the crowd to do this. Who hates CNN?
exactly
Yes, exactly right, the trashing of CNN HQ was a big mistake or else a calculated sabotage of the marchers’ credibility. I was disheartened when I saw CNN covering the trashing of its HQ, as well as the burning of neighborhood stores. I also looked for Joe Nathan’s comments your mentioned, Diane, can’t find them.
I do not know who is to blame for the violence. I heard the mayor of Minneapolis say that most of the arrested people were not from the state. Barr claims the agitators were from the left wing. Before violence erupted Vice News reported that right wing agitators with guns were heading to cities to precipitate a “new civil war” under the code name boogaloo. It sounded insane to me so I ignored the post until the violence erupted on multiple fronts. Who is to blame? I have no idea. https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/pkyb9b/far-right-extremists-are-hoping-to-turn-the-george-floyd-protests-into-a-new-civil-war?utm_source=vicenewsfacebook
“the mayor of Minneapolis say that most of the arrested people were not from the state. Barr claims the agitators were from the left wing”
“Left” if you were facing north, south, east or west from Minneapolis?
A Minneapolis police spokesperson reported that, of those protesters jailed, 80% were from the Minneapolis area.
What about the other 20%?
Where did they come from?
Linda, it doesn’t take many people to turn a crowd that is already riled up. One or two are enough.
The Mayor of Cincinnati was in the main downtown police station last night, with other city officials and the police. While there, someone tried to break open a police station window, and another person tried to stuff a cloth in another window. The windows are frosted so the people could not be identified. But the time the police got outside, the people attempting to do something–felt by all inside as a threat–had vanished.
Meanwhile the end of the downtown curfew provided an opportunity for protesters to migrate to another neighborhood, close to the University of Cincinnati and neighboring stores and bars. Along the way some of the protesters broke windows and set fires in garbage cans. A shot was fired from a nearby street, hitting the helmet of a police officer instead of the middle of his forehead. Cars and motorcycles were speeding through intersections.
There was one local video crews and a reporter, but this was 3 am and it was clear they were amateurs in documenting the breaking news.
The police who had followed the protesters who migrated up a hills from downtown must have been tired. The police did not pursue them very far. Instead the surrounded a gas station, wisely judging that its security was essential. And that was about all.
The Mayor will have a city-wide curfew this evening and tomorrow. He also observed, that he thought it was strange that some of the trouble-makers he saw were wearing heavy, well stuffed backpacks, on a warm evening. He did not refer to these people directly as “outside agitators” but certainly implied that this gear was well beyond that of routine fanny packs and strap-on water bottles. And he was clearly shaken by being inside of the police station when someone appeared to be targeting it.
I regret to say that Cincinnati has a long history of racially charged relationships within the police department, shooting of unarmed Black youth and men, and protests against entrenched injustice. The City is also home to a historic district and several museums devoted to the Underground Railroad and churches founded by contemporaries and collaborators with Martin Luther King. None of this seems to matter a larger and persistent pattern of political and economic activity that can only be explained as racist.
U.S. Representative Joyce Beatty of Ohio was at the protest in either Dayton or Columbus, Ohio. She said police aimed tear gas at her peaceful gathering without first issuing a warning.
On a positive note, the demonstration in Trenton, NJ, on Saturday was peaceful: “About 400 people gathered in front of the State House in Trenton on Saturday afternoon to protest police brutality and the murder of George Floyd, the black man who was suffocated to death by a police officer in Minneapolis. The rally was the first of several planned in the coming days in the capital city. Protesters are also planning to hold another peaceful gathering in front of the State House again Sunday from 3 p.m. to 6 p.m. The rally will begin with speeches, followed by a march and a candlelight vigil.”
https://planetprinceton.com/2020/05/30/in-trenton-a-peaceful-saturday-protest-against-racism-and-police-brutality-photos-and-video/
By now it must be clear even to King Con and Pence the Dense and certainly clear to Mitch McConnell, William Barr, Stephen Miller, and John Ratcliff, that there is very little chance that Trump will win the November election, even if mail-in balloting is suppressed, the absentee ballots of Democrats are lost or mailed to voters too late, polls are closed in minority neighborhoods, and so on. Trump knows that the moment he leaves office, he will be subject to an avalanche of criminal and civil charges for everything from rape to money laundering to misappropriation of charitable funds, so he’s as desperate as a person can get. He also knows that he can’t receive a federal pardon for charges brought in state courts. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if Trump and his cronies are sending in agents provocateurs to turn the protests violent in order to have reason to declare martial law. Lord knows, there are enough brownshirts (to whom Trump has been dog-whistling now for three years) for the would-be fascists to draw upon for this purpose. As Ira points out above, there’s a long and disgusting history of this tactic being employed.
cx: Ratcliffe
I believe that this is the most powerful single piece of media that I have seen in my lifetime:
Wow, I agree. There are a lot of problems with our country but the protests are about this and should not be hijacked to minimize what the people protesting are protesting about. I get that white people are angry, too, but this isn’t about working class versus “neoliberalism” and that is not what the rage of protesters is about.
It is about what it feels like to live like that every single day, regardless of your income or education or political views. Because of the color of your skin.
It is incredibly important for people of all races to understand the rage, but refrain from hijacking it for some political end that minimizes what the protesting is about.
But it’s also important, NYC, for poor and middle-class white people and white people with a brain to recognize that they and the victims of this systemic violence over centuries share a mutual enemy. Solidarity!
Solidarity.
Yes I agree with you about solidarity. But sometimes the call for “solidarity” seems to minimize racism. It is very clear to me that there are white people out there at the protests — just a small percentage of them — trying to hijack this and they have no respect for the people leading the protests and I suspect they either care very little about racism or are of the belief that somehow having a socialized country will make it all go away. And they seek to use people’s anger at racism for their own agenda. And that’s very easy to do when you are white.
I have seen some supposed progressives referring nastily to the DNC being too focused on “identity politics” as if the concerns of African Americans with racism are just not as important as economic justice for all working and middle class folks which will supposedly benefit African Americans too. It sort of reminds me of people who say “It isn’t Black Lives Matters, It’s All Lives Matter”.
If you live with a target on you every day, getting Bernie’s free college and having Medicare for All and high taxes on the rich and a good income isn’t going to solve your most pressing issue. And in that your solidarity is with the other people who experience that racism, whether they are in the .01% or the bottom 10%.
In the last few days I have read at least 3 or 4 posts here from different posters (just today a new poster I had never read before) who used the riots to bash the DNC and claim that the DNC had cheated to arrange for Biden to be the nominee. There were even posters using this to call for Bernie to re-enter the race as the “only” candidate who cared about this issue.
It’s hard for me to believe that the same people who are ignoring (or lying) about the fact that many African American voters actually voted for Biden over Bernie really care very much about why people are protesting. It seems to be an excuse for them to demand Bernie be the nominee and disempower the very people who voted for Biden who are rightly angry at the racism in this country but perhaps are not as committed (yet) to supporting all the economic changes that Bernie’s white, progressive voters are telling them they should be.
Totally understand where you are coming from on this, NYC parent
It didn’t escape my attention that the powers that be murdered Dr. Martin Luther King (I don’t believe for a moment that this was the work of a lone crazy) when he started talking about how this was the struggle of all who were economically shut out and went to support the striking sanitation workers in Memphis. The oligarchs and their political wind-up toys and bobblehead dolls believed that they could continue the systemic violence against black people indefinitely by continuing to stoke racism but that if other exploited workers conquered their fear of the Other and joined them, the pushback would become uncontainable. Divide and conquer, that’s how exploitation has managed to keep its grip on the country. I agree entirely that the current protests are about long-term and quotidian violence of enormous subtlety and variety against black people and, emphatically, should be viewed as such. But I also long for others to see the similarity of their condition and to stand alongside their brothers and sisters. Slavery and genocide are the Original Sins of this country. Economic injustice and dividing poor blacks and poor whites against one another are how those sins continue to be perpetrated.
You make many good points, as usual, Bob Shepherd!
It also doesn’t escape my attention that it is the Republican party which is desperately trying to disenfranchise African American voters and that a lot of the Russian propaganda was directed to suppress the African American vote. The Democrats, for all their flaws, support enfranchising as many voters as possible.
The current Congress is the most racially and ethnically diverse in history. But the racial and ethnic diversity is almost entirely in the Democratic Party. The Democratic party looks much more like today’s America, while the Republican party looks like the America that the Republicans want it to be.
So, I don’t think the Democrats want to divide and conquer. It is the Republicans who are convincing the white working class voters that civil rights and “identity politics” is what is keeping them down and by joining the party of white people — the Republicans – their desires will be solved. The racism is so pervasive that the Republicans don’t even have to offer those white voters anything or do anything for them! As long as they can convince them that it is the Democrats keeping them down, those white people are happy to vote against their economic self-interest. And if they start to doubt their white Republican overlords, they just have to listen to the other white people on the left (and it is almost always white people) who focus all their rage on the Democrats and help convince them that the Republicans are right — it’s all the Democrats’ fault that white working class people are suffering.
Off topic
Sara-
I hope Diane or you keep readers informed about the U.S. Supreme Court case that originated in L.A. The L.A. Times describes the case as potentially denying civil rights protections to hundreds of thousands of teachers in religious schools. The teachers in the suit are Kristin Biel who said she was dismissed after informing her principal that she would need time off for cancer surgery and chemo (she has died since filing) and Agnes Morrisey-Berru who sued for age discrimination. Both of their employers were Catholic schools.
Linda Apparently, Catholic bashing isn’t “off topic” for you. Here we go again. CBK
I agree with you, CBK. This gets really old. Lots of Catholics and other people of faith are wonderful people. The constant bashing needs to stop.
Threatened Out West One thing I might ask others here to do is, every time Linda writes “Catholic” replace that term with “Jewish,” or “Muslim,” or some other term of over-generalized group bias and see how it sounds. I don’t like everything that Catholics do either, either individually or in the name of the Church, but it doesn’t help the case to be so obviously extreme about it. CBK
Has not the Catholic hierarchy and its grassroots been bashing anyone who disagrees with them for at least the past 40 years? Rather than engage, they have demonized large swaths of Americans as baby killers. At the same time they cover up for legions of child abusers? It’s the hierarchy. Have they not engaged in single issue politics while ignoring everything they profess to believe in? It’s the hierarchy. Have they not demonized and ostracized teachers who are LGBT?
GregB I already wrote what I thought about comments like yours and how the miss the point entirely. If you want my reply, please do go back and read them. CBK
CBK,
Ignore them. They won’t convince you, and you won’t convince them.
Let’s try to take it down a notch, CBK. Do you think it’s correct for those of us who believe in each woman’s right to choose, that it is not up to the state make decisions for them, to be called pro-abortion or baby killers? And should that be the single issue upon which all public policy decisions should be made?
GregB Do read my past notes on this issue. If you don’t read what I say in response to your redundant notes (and Linda’s) why should I expect you to read new ones? CBK
I know Roman Catholics who support a woman’s right to choose.
Don’t stereotype all Catholics based on the views of the hierarchy.
Diane Exactly. CBK
Yes, those comments didn’t answer any questions either. Does a Catholic hierarchy that encourage its members to vote single issue and vote for Republicans enable fascism or not?
Many faithful Catholics are faithful to the religion, not to the politics of the hierarchy.
Greg-
I deduce the, “kill the messenger”, applies in this thread and others about the same issue.
As requested, I’ll substitute a different religion for them- U.S. law should permit Muslim, Jewish, Scientology,… to discriminate based on age, disability, pregnancy, race, religion, gender, national origin, sexual orientation, failure to marry a live-in partner with whom one has sexual relations (same sex couples should be legally prevented from marriage) and whatever else they want to control. Because religion is sacrosanct, it is taboo to discuss the synagogues, temples and mosques’ lawsuits which are aimed at conservative reinterpretation of laws to permit discrimination by religious employers.
BTW- Greg, the letter chastising Bishop Dolan for his praise of Trump- mostly signed by women which may explain Dolan’s cavalier dismissal of it (“make gnocchi”). It didn’t appear Melinda Gates signed the letter. She and Bill are neoliberal Republicans like Zuck.
Linda I had to laugh. I know NO Catholics who think discussing current religious issues and doctrine is “taboo.” On the contrary. CBK
Please don’t impugn things into my remarks that I did not write. I am not writing about the faithful who do not blindly follow the hierarchy and follow its intolerance and hypocrisy. I am writing about the intolerant who claim to be faithful and blindly follow the hierarchy. You both know that.
GregB You write: “Please don’t impugn things into my remarks that I did not write. I am not writing about the faithful who do not blindly follow the hierarchy and follow its intolerance and hypocrisy. I am writing about the intolerant who claim to be faithful and blindly follow the hierarchy. You both know that.”
Okay–then do the same for me and others who are “of the faith” but are apparently gathered together under the “label” Catholic who, for instance, and OF COURSE, all condone the Church harboring sexual predators and blindly support everything the hierarchy says and does. Do you really think, after all I’ve written on this site, that I support fascism? Good grief . . . Let me know when you and Linda get into a landing pattern. CBK
CBK, LET IT GO. Don’t engage.
Diane I “let it go” before, and it went on and on, when I finally re-engaged. Linda really is a textbook example of extreme group bias, in particular, against “Catholic.” Almost every post includes Catholic bashing.
But . . . . okay. CBK
But you can see that whatever you say makes no difference so focus on other things. You know a lot and make valuable contributions
Diane Thank you for your kind comments. And I am sorry for the detraction from what is presently going on. CBK
The SCOTUS case was identified using usual practice- litigants were listed. The two Catholic schools stand in for all religious employers. The case reached SCOTUS based on its significance to civil rights.
The SCOTUS verdict will allow for more than 100,000 religious school teachers to lose their tax-supported jobs (vouchers and the Espinosa case) if religious groups, Muslim, Jews, Catholics,… decide women should not be teachers, school administrators, social workers, staff in religious hospitals,…that they don’t deserve equal treatment in employment.
I’m pondering the question- do employees in religious organizations who are willing to forego their rights under currently interpreted US law corroborate the point, “that the “faithful are faithful to the religion”?
Two commenters at this blog falsely label me a religion “basher” for identifying a SCOTUS case that can, according to pundits, have monumental consequence. The indignation and smoothing to protect religion deflects. The blog host and commenters disagree with the pundits and me who think the SCOTUS case has relevance to the nation.
Diane permits disagreement at her blog.
Linda,
You can write whatever you want about religion and policies that are harmful to public schools.
Please stop picking on CBK. She is not a Bishop, a Cardinal, or the Pope. She does not represent the Church. We are all entitled to our own religious beliefs.
Any individual without power can be seen to be immaterial and irrelevant in my arguments. Reading all of my thread comments about the activities of Catholic church political operatives disabuse the notion of “picking on CBK”. While she comments after my comments and refers to me by name, I seldom do similarly. I don’t recall that I have ever personally insulted her as she has me. I don’t recall ever implying that all Catholics believe anything in common. To my recollection, I have never assumed that a commenter was representative of the entirety of any group or faction.
No number of insults to me will make me pander to stop them.
Those who want to ignore my citation of political gains against liberals, achieved by religion can do so. Msm and blogs with audiences supportive of democracy and civil rights, that are pro-common goods, have largely refrained from expoing theocracy. I see it as an obligation to shed light on political attacks on public education, the rights of women and gay people and democracy and, I am unwilling to stand down from identifying a well-organized and funded, substantial political enemy.
If SCOTUS decides in favor of the Catholic schools, the concern is that the 3rd largest employer in the U.S., Catholic organizations, and other religious employers e.g. evangelical organizations, will be able to deny labor, the civil rights historically interpreted to apply in all employment situations.
Other commenters and the blog host can be arbiters of the significance of the referenced SCOTUS case, agreeing or disagreeing with differing opinions about its relevance.
In an informed environment, blog readers would review publications that describe the political engagement of denominations e.g. National Catholic Reporter. If various religions have had the political success that the Catholic hierarchy has had in steering the nation to conservative legislation, to appointment and election of Republican government officials and to tax funding for religious organizations, then those fighting for women’s rights, democracy, public education, etc. would benefit from the knowledge.
Evidently, few book writers and journalists cover the political operations of the governing councils of religious groups. The exception is evangelicals like Jerry Falwell, Franklin Graham,..
Exactly.
CBK, you once again choose to infer what you want into my remarks. Of course you don’t support fascism. Of course, not all Catholics should be grouped together into one basket. But some can. Of course, not all Catholics condone serial child abuse. But some did by continuing to promote and reassign predators, hiding them, paying off victims in secret, and denying all victims acknowledgement of their suffering. You know who one of them was? The hierarchy which very much includes Cardinal Dolan. Of course not all Catholics vote single issue. But by some estimates, 40-50% do. Let’s try an analogy. I have been consistent in my desire to acknowledge the contributions of German resistors to Naziism. But are they all Germans? No. They were a very small minority. Most Germans were either/and silent, complicit, fearful, and true believers. Is their enabling absolved by the resisters? Not by a long shot. Should they have been forced to accept their guilt? Yes. Should their offspring who have made amends and for the most part created a better world be stained by their ancestors’ evil. No. But they should damn well continue to learn from it and act accordingly.
Greg,
Just stop hounding and berating CBK for being Catholic. Stop. She is not a spokeswoman for the Church. Enough.
I am not berating CBK or anyone for their religious beliefs. I am discussing how a monolithic view of any category of people is wrong whenever it is used for any reason. I have been consistent about that for my whole life and will not apologize for it. If this is the way you feel, perhaps you should quit posting stories of how Catholic schools use public monies from the charter trough.
Greg- thanks for not standing down. The importance of individuals not being cowered by manipulation was understood by Jefferson, Lincoln, and Washington.
Some thoughts on provocateurs and the looting. It is not necessary to be present at a protest to incite violence and precipitate looting and property damage. Those who would most benefit from advancing the narrative that results from all that, white supremacists, are quite adept at false flag actions and incitement via fake identities on social media, up to and including spreading the idea of renting trucks and planning looting in advance as has been seen in Chicago. White supremacists are quite capable of and willing to leverage the righteous indignation and bitter frustrations of the long beleaguered POC in America. Why would they put themselves at any risk out there when they can get those they hate to do their dirty work for them via trickery and deception? Also, Barr’s catagorizations of the
radical or extremist left as being at fault are entirely political and beneath contempt. Likewise for those who claim that Antifa was behind the vandalism and looting. In addition, the assaults on those who were quite obviously members of the press/media is a separate atrocity that must be fully and aggressively investigated.
The orange menace tweeted he will designate ‘ANTIFA’ a terrorist organization. On and on the lunacy goes.
Aren’t we all against fascists?
“Aren’t we all against fascists?”
In going after whatever the label Antifa means, isn’t Trump admitting that he’s not “anti-fascist?” And I guess none of the violence is coming from imported extremes on the right? (I feel l like that picture of the guy on the bridge in “The Scream” painting.) CBK
There are two definitions for Antifa.
Trump’s and the actual explanation.
Trump calls white supremacists nice guys when the march carrying the confederate flag with Trump’s name added to it and with automatic weapons slung from their shoulders.
“Antifa members show up dressed like clowns with few if any weapons and if they have weapons it is usually a club or something similar and Trump calls them terrorists.
“Explained: What is Antifa, the group that Trump wants to declare a terrorist organisation
While the movement has had a presence in several European countries and has come into focus in the United States in recent years, Antifa does not have a formal organisational structure. The New York Times said it draws its members from other movements such as Black Lives Matter and the Occupy movement.” …
https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/what-is-antifa-the-group-that-trump-wants-to-declare-a-terrorist-organisation-6436804/
“Funding Hate: How White Supremacists Raise Their Money”
Click to access adl-report-funding-hate-how-white-supremacists-raise-their-money.pdf
Compared to Antifa, What Nationalist groups are loosely organized and cooperate with each other.
“Despite pressure on law enforcement and Silicon Valley to seriously counter the rise in violent extremism perpetrated by white nationalists, the far right shows no signs of letting up. White nationalist leaders will continue to explain away the violence in their movement as a regrettable but understandable reaction to demographic change.”
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/white-nationalist
Lloyd Thanks for the links. And even if Trump doesn’t know what a fascist is, he still exhibits all of the fascist tendencies and traits. CBK
Everything is relative.
Trump grew up as a bully and has been a bully all his life. That is why Trump doesn’t know he is a bully. Trump doesn’t see anything wrong with being a bully or a racist because he was raised by his father to be both. Trump sees his behavior as normal and everyone that doesn’t agree with him is wrong.
Lloyd That’s probably why fascism has been described as a personality disorder with a cult following, raised to the level of political theory. CBK
Trump dreams of the day he will be the Great Leader of a powerful, ruthless cult that suppresses everyone else or eliminates them of they can’t be controlled.
The current protests and riots may be what Trump has been waiting for so he will have an excuse to set the country on fire and unleash his heavily armed White Supremeist supporters with their Nazi-style flags that has Trump’s name printed on them.
I just watched another video. Two young white people dressed in black vandalizing a Starbucks while an African American woman asks them what they are doing and trying to document it while pointing out that “they are going to blame us for that”.
I don’t know if those white people are far right or antifa but does it matter what those white people call themselves? They could claim to be progressives but that doesn’t make them progressives; they are people using the pain and righteous anger of victims of racism for their own selfish ends and more than willing to sacrifice the victims to achieve their ends. (Which makes me more inclined to believe they are on the right.)
All they have to do is be in a crowd of peaceful protesters and start throwing dangerous objects at police to get the police to do something that harms the peaceful protesters while they slither off because they don’t actually have the courage of their convictions and want others to take the blame. And they want others to react violently in order to discredit all the authentic protesters as all being violent “thugs”.
The people throwing molotov cocktails at the police and destroying property are specifically endangering the protestors and are very different from the antifa surrounding peaceful protestors to protect them.
Of course, the police are also capable of acting very badly toward peaceful protesters without any provocation. And this has absolutely happened too. But some white people are not there to support the protestors but have their own agenda.
Trump’s deplorable supporters are more than capable of taking advantage of a situation like a peaceful protest that their false chosen one Donald Trump does not approve of and infiltrate the crowed to sabotage it. Last week, Trump even urged them to do something like that.
George Floyd was murdered and all 4 police officers involved-one for the homicide and the other three for aiding/abetting a homicide. Police brutality is evil.
Responding to this, no matter how justified the outrage, by engaging in criminal acts, such as murder, assault, arson, looting and vandalism is equally evil. We all have a Constitutional right to PEACEFULLY assemble to protest.
Two things can be right at the same time.
The peaceful protesters have been sadly infilitrated by violent criminals in ANTIFA, CPUSA, some in BLM, most of whom are highly organized and travel state to state. Add in the usual opportunists who just want to destroy things and steal. The rioters have escalated protest into the mayhem of riots. The corrupt and supine local and state politicians ordering police to “stand down” to these thugs hurts us all.
If you can’t call a black (or white, Latino, Asian, whatever) THUG a THUG, YOU’RE the racist.
Antifa exists primarily as a figment of the imaginations of alt-right extremists. There have been numerous reports of the looting, burning, etc., being started by WHITE MEN dressed in ALL BLACK with heavy packs on their backs–people who look like paramilitary professionals. False flag extreme right-wing agitators attempting to instigate a backlash against the protests? Probably. But I’m certain you aren’t going to hear that on not-so-Breitbart and Faux News and the QAnon incel Nazi KKK blogs or wherever it is that you get your disinformation.
Yes, I’d be willing to bet the SPLC knows something about his affiliations.
Yes, suspicious, very well hidden from view, pointlessly aggressive. Well-organized mass marches, rallies, and demonstrations as well as teach-ins have designated marshals intervening in such things. Spontaneous outbursts of grief, anger, and demands are vulnerable to infiltration and takeover. Must have marshals if at all possible. Medics did show up to assist but mass movements need their own security.
Are you aware that in several smaller cities like Camden, New Jersey, and Santa Cruz, California the local police joined the protesters and those protests were peaceful with no violence?
Violence will beget violence.
Trump has turned the United States into a pool of nitroglycerine that is starting to shake, and Trump will make no attempt to stop that. He has made it clear before that he wants a Civil War that he thinks will keep him in power.
It is apparent that Trump thinks his heavily armed White Supremacist supporters will rise up and win that Civil War. Trump’s twisted malignant narcissistic mind is dreaming that he will be “their” Dear Leader for the rest of his life, the powerful Putin of America.
Trump is waiting for that to happen and then he thinks he will get his revenge against everyone that did not support him.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2020/05/31/in-some-cities-police-officers-joined-protesters-marching-against-brutality/#53b8dbb05edb
Superb point, Ira!
Kael,
Why did you leave out that the most violent infiltrators are most likely the same right wing white neo-fascists whose violent actions killed a young woman in Charlotte?
The violent protestors are far more likely to be rabid Trump supporters just as the violent protestors in Charlotte were Trump supporters.
I find it odd that you are now very angry that the police cannot violently attack the peaceful protesters and your reason that you believe the police should be free to attack the peaceful protestors as much as they want is because the violent ones – who are likely to be Trump supporters — are causing trouble.
Thank you for letting Diane Ravitch’s readers know what the white supremacist point of view is. You enlightened us about why you believe police violence on peaceful protestors is a very fine thing. I am sure you can find some racists who agree with you.
“If you can’t call a black (or white, Latino, Asian, whatever) THUG a THUG, YOU’RE the racist.”
Kael, if you can’t call a white thug a thug because the thug supports Trump, then YOU’RE the racist.
Linda and Greg I for one am grateful to be updated with the SCOTUS case; I know of others who are FORMALLY raising the same employment issues (in Denmark, to be specific) juxtaposing employment of teachers not only to Catholic doctrine, but to Jesus’ teachings themselves, where (ahem) Catholic practices don’t measure-up at all. Also, I don’t disagree with many of the issues Linda raises here (I thought I already made that clear several times).
Unlike Diane, however, I do think others can be moved past a misunderstanding; so this note is about what I see as a misunderstanding of my objections to so many of Linda’s notes:
It’s the din of Linda’s blog notes that focus on the Catholic Church; as well as the lumping of ALL “Catholics” under negative, over-simplified (stereotyped) ideas, for instance, about our lockstep relationship to authority; and a display of egregious ignorance about the history of Catholic Education, which is remarkably different from other private religious educational institutions, e.g., they are solid educational institutions that are about both secular and religious education, and not ONLY about “religious indoctrination.” Big difference.
And here’s the other point: Any real and qualified critique of the Catholic Church, which it certainly deserves, becomes overshadowed by the apparent obsessiveness of the din. When almost every note is about how bad the Catholic Church is, it diminishes the legitimacy of your concerns. It also makes a blog that supports public education look like a doorway through which one obsessive person shovels blame onto their particular bias, in this case the Catholic Church, rather than about (legitimate or not) a range of arguments that concern the overall health of public education.
BTW, ANY persons of any religious affiliation (and even atheists) who live in a secular democracy live in a fundamental tension between religious and political power, as is manifest in our church’s activities and life events.
We either realize that peaceful relations are based on a truly ecumenical dialogue, and that such dialogue is based on the religious freedoms written-in to a democratic Constitution, . . . and NOT based on a totalitarian or theocratic vision ruled by one’s own religion, . . . . or we do not.
That’s the fundamental tension that, by my own notice over the years, many persons in all religions (and atheists) fail to recognize–but certainly not all.
Like secular society, where all of our church and school communities are located, churches and schools are “in progress” and need work. An over-focus on Catholics makes for a huge source of imbalance and misinformation on a site like Diane’s and so I felt it important to remark on it. CBK