Bob Shepherd—teacher, author, textbook writer, assessment developer, etc.—posted the following here as a comment while discussing the negative effects ofCommon Core and other efforts to standardize the curriculum:
This is what an entire generation (20 years) of standards-and-high-stakes testing has done to the field of the English language arts. Department chairpersons now make comments like, “We don’t teach content in English, only skills.” Imagine a so-called “teacher of English” who knows nothing of and has not experienced, himself or herself, the value of having content knowledge of particular great authors and works in the literary canons of the world (British, American, European, Asian, African, etc); of literary techniques, structures, periods, and genres–their characteristics and historical development; of literary history; of the relations of literary history to the history of ideas and events; of prosody; of rhetoric; of approaches to literary works (i.e., the varieties of literary criticism and the methods of each); of syntax and semantics and phonology; of the elements of speech; of dialects; of literary archetypes; of the varieties of folk orature; and so on. Knowledge enables one to see what’s there. If I teach you about the varieties of grasses and other plants on your lawn, then it will not longer seem like an undifferentiated mass of green to you. You will see communities interacting. Let’s consider something that people typically think of as “a skill”–public speaking. If I’m serious about making you into a better public speaker, then I will teach you descriptive knowledge of the elements of speech–pitch, or intonation, and range; stress, or accent; length; rhythm; pace; volume; timbre; tone; articulation and enunciation; diction; respiration; facial expressions; eye contact; gestures; stance; proximity; silences and pauses; register; movement; dialect; dress; paralinguistic vocalization; body language; and resonance. And I will teach you procedural knowledge about how you can use that descriptive knowledge: If you vary the pitch of your voice, this produces melody, and your voice will be more attractive to listen to; most people vary their pitch a tiny bit around an average pitch that is too high; by lowering your average pitch and varying your pitch around that center, you can make your voice much more melodious to an audience. And so it is with each of these bits of descriptive knowledge–they make it possible to learn procedural knowledge that will empower you. But the person who does not possess that descriptive knowledge cannot use it to teach procedural knowledge. And so the student does not grow.
It would be an altogether good thing for the English language arts if people stopped using the term “skills” altogether and instead spoke in terms of “procedural knowledge,” for then they would have a clue that knowledge is key to being able to do things. The woodworker needs to have knowledge that there is something called grain and that it runs in a particular direction. If he or she knows this, then it becomes possible to plane a piece of wood to make it smooth–one works in the direction of the grain. Knowledge is KEY.
People who think that they are teaching “skills” in the absence of content, or knowledge, are totally confused. There is, for example, no general “finding the main idea skill” or “inferencing skill.” These are as fictional as were Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s fairies. Let me give another example. One of the very few actual texts mentioned anywhere in the Common [sic] Core [sic] State [sic] Standards [sic] is Plato’s Allegory of the Cave from the Republic. Is one going to have any clue what this is about based on applying some general “finding the main idea” skill? Of course not. Understanding what’s going on there requires a lot of background knowledge about what Plato was concerned with and how he thought. Plato was highly influenced by Greek mathematics. He recognized that perfect forms, like a point or a triangle, don’t exist in the world but that they can be conceived of in the mind. In Greek, the word psyche meant both “mind” and “spirit.” The fact that people can conceive of perfection, of perfect forms, led him to think that there exists a separate spiritual world of perfect forms, of which the psyche partook, and that simply by thinking carefully enough, one could discover these perfect forms–the real meaning of “truth” and “virtue” and so on. If you are a student and know all that, then the allegory will make sense to you. Otherwise, good luck trying to apply your general finding the main idea “skill.” LMAO!

Thank this guy:
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… who is the antithesis of this guy:
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In the last twenty years of U.S. public education so-called “reform” (not private ed., mind you), who the-hell allowed the David Coleman’s wipe out the John Keating’s in U.S. education, or assisted him in doing so?
Yeah, yeah, I know that the latter is fictional … I mean the real-life equivalents of Keating … I can only wish that Coleman was fictional.
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Who appointed this man, Lord Coleman, the head of the Common [sic] Core [sic] Curriculum Commissariat, to be the “decider” for the rest of us, to do the thinking for the rest of us? Gates, who wanted a single national bullet list to key depersonalized education software to.
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Robert,
David Coleman is a sniveling narcissist, a self serving, ego-bloated bore (or boar, of you prefer) who knows it all and knows it better than anyone else.
How pathetic and evil that he would say that no one gives sh#&A$ about “what you think” when in fact, advocacy involves one’s thinking and voice, and a society without citizen voice is a fascist society. If all we are supposed to do is write facts and not react to those facts, then we should all be technical writers and design pamphlets on how to put together a camping tent or Ikea sofa.
David Coleman is a fool. Ironically, he seems to think he’s important enough for people to listen to what HE is thinking, which is why he gave that presentation.
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A few things that Lord Coleman didn’t understand about narrative and, in particular, about personal narrative: https://bobshepherdonline.wordpress.com/2018/11/30/what-makes-humans-human/
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And now, most of my 7-9 grade students can’t even write a paragraph of personal narrative. And I DO care what my students think and feel.
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People talk about NAEP scores being “flat” since Common Core was instituted, implying that it has neither helped nor hurt, but the problem is that it really does not gauge the important things like writing a personal narrative.
Teachers can SEE the negative effects of Common Core everywhere they look and even parents can see how twisted their children’s homework has become, but I fear that a lot of the damage will go undocumented because NAEP and the other standard “metrics” indicate nothing.
By the way, that should tell people to be very wary of tests like NAEP because if one completely changes the way an entire generation of children are educated and the test indicates it had no effect, there is something seriously amiss about the so called “metric” one is using.
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SDP, “stagnant NAEP” scores started in about 2012 (when most states had CCSS implementation in place). So of course by now you’ve got kids w/7yrs of CCSS training of whom it can [incorrectly] be said CCSS neither helps nor hurts. Incremental rise was the norm since NAEP started. My understanding is that after years of regular rise, NAEP scores began rising at lower rates in 2008 [perhaps due to ed budget cuts implemented due to 2007-8 financial collapse], & began flattening by 2012 [presumably due to combo of lower ed budgets & implementation of CCSS], & in 2018 dipped in a couple of regions [when majority of states have restored 2008 levels, but meanwhile CCSS continues].
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I have only one question: who is this vulgarian, and why do I give a s**t about what he thinks?
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“Knowledge is KEY.” After reading this, I learned that there is a lot that I never was taught.
The constant testing would have driven me crazy. I was determined to get high grades and do well throughout all of my schooling. If I had done badly on a number of standardized tests it is highly possible that I would never have recovered mentally. [Remember that in my early 50’s I had taken therapy for five years for severe emotional and mental abuse from my mother. She did her best but there was a lot that was missing,]
I’m sure there are a lot of poor children, and some middle class ones, who feel like I would have. They are being traumatized by tests that are worthless. Being labeled a constant failure defeats anything that teachers can to do bring up morale.
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“They are being traumatized by tests that are worthless.”
No hyperbole there. The high-stakes standardized tests in ELA are, literally, worthless–of no pedagogical value whatsoever.
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It’s like “Learning How to Ride a Bike” via worksheets. One can know all the parts of a bike, plus the safety equipment and still not know how to RIDE a BIKE.
I do think all of this CRAZINESS is about Jim Crow.
And yes, our young are indeed being TRAUMATIZED by WORTHLESS TESTS … and for PROFITS and to COLLECT ENDLESS DATA to use NOW and LATER. So sick.
Bob, I love your comments. They are so clear and right on.
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There a some things that people are wired to do automatically. Unconsciously intuiting grammatical parameters like relative subject/object position is an example. Learning to walk is another. But simply having people practice a skill, over and over, in the absence of teaching relevant descriptive and procedural knowledge, is usually a mistake. The value in using the term “procedural knowledge” rather than “skill” is that it forces people to be concrete–to come up with something teachable–news you can use.
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Tennessee gives the Tennessee Comprehensive Assessment Program (TCAP). My daughter, unprodded by her father, came up with Tennessee Child Abuse Program. Hard to argue
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love it!
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Before NCLB and all the hyper-testing nonsense, many school districts valued writing. Time spent writing was part of the every day activities of students. Writing is a natural extension of reading, and doing one reinforces the other. Students wrote responses to literature, and they wrote in non-fiction when they wrote up lab reports or a written response in a social studies class. Elementary students wrote their own books, I still have some of my children’s early books, and they are thirty-five and thirty-seven.
Like any craft, writing must be practiced to be learned. I like Bob’s term “procedural knowledge” as it is a departure from the skills mentality of the bubble test. Let’s face it, without knowledge, students really do not have too much to say about anything.
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But now, because of Common Core, when students do write (which is rarely), they are asked to do bizarre formulaic insta-writing, in imitation of standardized test prompts, based on the puerile Gates/Coleman skills list. Don’t, by any means, respond to what I had to say in the post above. Instead, write a five-paragraph theme about how my use of figurative language in the piece affected its tone and mood, giving three examples of this. Utterly unnatural and weird and pointless.
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Instead of being thoughtful or creative, students are trained to give formulaic responses so they can be scored, ie. standardized.
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The Coring of U.S. ELA curricula has led to a lot of inanity and unnaturalness in students’ interactions with texts and in their writing. It’s appalling. And many, many of our state department people and school administrators are clueless about this. Most English teachers and almost all textbook writers and editors are quite hip to this. Many are quitting because they just can’t stand it anymore.
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So that they can be scored by a machine, even! Aie yie yie.
It’s amusing to imagine Rumi or Blake or Emerson or Yeats or Borges or Calvino writing a response to one of these standardized test writing prompts and then having that response “graded” by machine. Every student in the United States, when faced with one of these prompts, should write, “Sorry. My mind is not standardized enough to formulate the requested response.”
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“And many, many of our state department people and school administrators are clueless about this.”
Adminimals, Robert, adminimals is what they are:
Adminimal: A spineless creature formerly known as an administrator and/or principal. Adminimals are known by/for their brown-nosing behavior in kissing the arses of those above them in the testucation hierarchy. These sycophantic toadies (not to be confused with cane toads, adminimals are far worse to the environment) are infamous for demanding that those below them in that hierarchy kiss the adminimal’s arse on a daily basis, having the teachers simultaneously telling said adminimals that their arse and its byproducts don’t stink. Adminimals are experts at Eichmanizing their staff through using techniques of fear and compliance inducing mind control. Beware, any interaction with an adminimal will sully one’s soul forever unless one has been properly intellectually vaccinated.
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Yup. I have suffered under the rule of these–the ones who come into one’s classroom and say, “What standard are you teaching now?” Idiots.
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Story broke today of a high-school principal in Florida who has been reassigned for Holocaust denial. Yes, one can be THAT ignorant and be a high-school principal. https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/08/us/principal-holocaust-letter-trnd/index.html
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Yes, saw that. Amazing, in a bad sense.
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I do not think it’s amazing. I think the view that scientific/historical evidence is a matter of beliefe is much more widespread than we’d like to admit. The principal wrote
“Not everyone believes the Holocaust happened. And you have your thoughts, but we are a public school and not all of our parents have the same beliefs.”
In TN, for example, we have many people, including educators, who think evolution is just a matter of believing it or not.
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Click to access ela-8-pure_poetry-instructional_activity_2-geraldine_moore_the_poet.pdf
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Amen to this! I have worked with “English teachers” that don’t even know English is a subject. I was recently told that “Teaching novels is something we don’t do here.” The principal tried to tell me it wasn’t in the curriculum…I can’t even describe how I felt about this because the whole experience was so ridiculous and absurd.
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“I Have a Dream” would have been a dry, unconvincing speech without the language of and many references to the Bible and Declaration of Independence. King was a great orator because of his deep knowledge and understanding of religious and historic literature, not because of his ability to “support a central idea with relevant details”. First, we learn to read; then, we read to learn.
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details.”
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I Have a Scheme” , by David Coleman
I have a scheme that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: “We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all standards are NOT created equal…. Common Core is clearly superior”
I have a scheme (Race to the Top) to collude with Bill Gates and Arne Duncan to get all states to accept Common Core sight unseen.
I have a scheme to align the SAT with Common Core.
I have a scheme that one day, all students of this nation will take the SAT (and none will take the ACT.)
I have a scheme that all children will be able to sit down together at the SAT administration.
I have a scheme that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of Common Core and AP.
I have a scheme that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the content of their character but by the content of their College Board transcript.
I have a scheme today.
I have a scheme that one day, down in Alabama, little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers and remit $64.50 and $94 for each SAT and AP test.
I have a scheme today.
This is our hope. This is the faith that I go back to the College Board with. With this faith we will be able to hew out of mountain of red ink a mountain of dollar$. With this faith we will be able to transform the independent school districts of our nation into a beautiful revenue stream. With this faith we will be able to test together, to prey together, to $truggle together,
to go to jail togetherto stand up for feedom together, knowing that we will get a fee one day (and in perpetuity)This will be the day when all of College Board’s executives will be able to sing with a new meaning, “My country, ‘ti$ of thee, $weet land of liberty, of thee I $ing. Land where my father$ died, land of the pilgrim’$ pride, from every mountain$ide, let feedom ring.”
And if America is to be a great nation this must become true. So let feedom ring from the prodigious hilltops of New Hampshire. Let feedom ring from the mighty mountains of New York. Let feedom ring from the heightening Alleghenies of Pennsylvania!
Let feedom ring from the snowcapped Rockies of Colorado!
Let feedom ring from the curvaceous slopes of California!
But not only that; let feeedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia!
Let feedom ring from Lookout Mountain of Tennessee!
Let feedom ring from every hill and molehill of Mississippi. From every mountainside, let feedom ring.
And when this happens, when we allow feedom to ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of College Board’s executives will join hands and sing in the words of the old testing spiritual, “Fee at last! fee at last! thank God Almighty, we have fee at last!”
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Make that
I have a scheme that all children (except those of the wealthy, of course) will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the content of their character but by the content of their College Board transcript.
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Excellent wordplay: When I HAVE A DREAM becomes I HAVE A SCHEME.
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Superb, SomeDAM.
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Thanks. I couldn’t stop laughing.
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Made me laugh aloud:
I have a scheme that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the content of their character but by the content of their College Board transcript.
I have a scheme today.
I have a scheme that one day, down in Alabama, little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers and remit $64.50 and $94 for each SAT and AP test.
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Excellent, Bob, thank you for clarifying the long bogus distinction between skills and contents. They are simultaneous involvements because all classrooms are cognitive/affective socially-situated activity systems.
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Beautifully said, Ira!
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On that note, Ira: what is the hidden curriculum in this Coring of ELA education? It appears to me that the primary lesson being taught is, “It doesn’t matter what you think. No one gives a s–t about that. What matters is that you shut up and apply yourself gritfully to the next inane task set before you. Excellent training for turning Prole children into servile droids.
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Yes, the ELA core is about disciplining attention and lowering expectations while minimizing intellectual outcomes. Foucault’s notion of how such mass management produces “docile bodies” makes sense here. Compliance is the key outcome, not the kids’ moving ahead as knowledge-making people.
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I love your phrase “knowledge-making people,” Ira, which weds these two falsely and artificially opposed notions of sensing and constructing. That this is an artificial opposition of use but ultimately inadequate is a very deep subject indeed. Here, I take it on: https://bobshepherdonline.wordpress.com/2014/03/27/the-vast-unseen-and-the-vast-unseeable-2/. And here: https://bobshepherdonline.wordpress.com/2019/03/17/the-theology-of-materialism/ And here: https://bobshepherdonline.wordpress.com/2019/03/17/three-meanings-of-meaning/
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Wonderful post. It would be a travesty to lose this level of knowledge in any field. Understanding language arts enriches our communication and our humanity. One of my favorite posts. Thank you
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We certainly had to put up,with another long post by Bob Sheperd. End quote.
Thanks , Bob, for your insights. Any idea worth explaining takes words, usually many of th m rather than a few. Tweets are for birds, who presumably have many short vocalizations. We are human, at least some of us. We need to learn to explain ourselves.
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There is hope. For those who have the desire and courage, one option would be to read and apply the methods of Mary Leonhardt in her book How to Teach a Love of Reading Without Getting Fired.
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I so appreciate your insights, Bob. When I compare my English teachers from 5th grade through early college to those of my two sons in middle and high school have, I feel so sad for them. I had teachers who fostered a love or reading and language in me, even when I got not so good grades. I had teachers who inspired me to read books that weren’t required, who allowed me to follow my interests, who taught me how to write without my understanding at the time that they did so. My kids don’t take English. They have some amorphous monstrosity called “Literacy”, whatever the hell that is. They make it so hard for me to encourage my boys to read on their own. Your “rant” makes me understand more clearly why, on the one hand, I believe so strongly in education and why, on the other, it’s hard not to be pessimistic about those entrusted with this solemn, important profession.
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“I had teachers who inspired me to read books that weren’t required, who allowed me to follow my interests, who taught me how to write without my understanding at the time that they did so.”
It occurs to me, GregB, that that’s an excellent description of the main job.
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On “Plato’s Allegory of the Cave from the Republic.”
I first encountered this allegory in a freshman college philosophy course. That course helped me in later courses that amplified on the influence of Plato’s reasoning in the contexts of art, architecture, aesthetics, and proper education.
Your post brought back memories of wonderful collegial arguments with the educational philosopher, Harry Broudy, an unrepentant classical realist who had much more to say about a proper high school education than elementary education and much more to say about some hallmarks of “enlightened cherishing” in art than how and why art is made. https://biography.yourdictionary.com/harry-samuel-broudy
Thanks for the trip down memory lane.
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The more I learn about the ancient Greeks, the more utterly alien and bizarre their ways of thinking seem to me. They were far, far from being stereotypically rational in all things–Euclid looking on beauty bare. Some antidotes for that Neoclassical understanding of them: W. C. K. Guthrie’s The Greek Philosophers from Thales to Aristotle; Gilbert Murray’s Five Stages of Greek Religion; E. R. Dodds’s The Greeks and the Irrational; Julian Jaynes’s The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind; R. Gordon Wasson, Albert Hoffman, and Carl Ruck’s The Road to Eleusis; Mara Keller’s “The Ritual Path of Initiation into the Eleusinian Mysteries”; Roberto Calasso’s The Marriage of Cadmus and Harmony; Hans Jonas’s The Gnostic Religion. Mind-bending stuff, all these works, and very, very STRANGE. Confronting the Greeks often requires putting aside ways of conceptualizing the world that are so fundamental to us that we are not even, typically, aware that we see things in that way. It’s a trip down a rabbit hole. I often wonder what that alien consciousness of a bat or a whale is like. Well, I’ve become more and more convinced that often, with the ancient Greeks, even with ones like Plato whom we might initially think we have a handle on, one is confronting ways of conceptualizing people and the world that are that extraordinarily weird, weirder, sometimes, than we are easily capable of grasping.
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I just realized that I made the common teacher mistake of talking, in response to your note, not about the topic you raised but about one that particularly interests me. I apologize for that Laura.
First thing, thank you for publically remembering and honoring your great teacher.
Second thing, the Wikipedia article on Mr. Broudy says that in addition to being influenced, as a philosopher of education, by Classical Realism, he was also influenced by the Existentialists. A few questions: by Classical Realism, does this article mean Platonic Realism about abstract entities like numbers and concept–that is, realism about forms? If so, how does this Classical Realism play out in his educational philosophy? And, in what ways was his educational philosophy influenced by the Existentialists?
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Oops. cx: Publicly.
This is one that even after all these years and after looking it up hundreds of times, I get wrong. Aie yie yie.
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Very thought-provoking denunciation of ELA standards and testing, Bob.
But: Why learn anything, when texting is king? (Apologies to Ogden Nash)
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Just excellent, Bob, and thank you. Apropos of all of this, I only have one word of comment:
Covfefe!
A lovely summer morning in southeastern Vermont.
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LOL. Enjoy, Mark!
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Lots of GREAT resources for English teachers and struggling learners at Mark Feltskog’s Mark’s Text Terminal, here: https://markstextterminal.com/
One could do worse things with a summer than to spend a large part of it mining materials for your classroom from Mark’s wonderful website. Such riches!
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Bob Shepherd Thanks for the link. FYI: Another excellent resource is edutopia.org by the George Lucas Educational Foundation. Their newsletter is always fresh and full of insights like your own. CBK
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I am afraid, politicians and CEOs and other leaders don’t think they need to really understand what they make decisions about. They think, there is what they call leadership skill, and it is uniform across all companies and professions. This is why we see a politician smoothly moving into any CEO position, regardless of the actual profile of the company. Nobody is surprised if, say, a softare company’s CEO becomes the CEO of a texbook company, and then the CEO of a financial institution and then becomes the president of a university, etc. I bet many of these guys cannot tell which particular company they lead if we wake them up in the middle of the night.
Unfortunately for us, these CEO-like people make the decisons about education in this country, and of course they have no problem with the teaching of skills that ignores actual content. After all, this skill centric view of the world have served these people well—just look at their bankaccounts.
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When I started in the textbook business several decades ago, there were some two hundred textbook companies in the United States, and the companies were mostly run by people who had come up through the ranks as editors and content experts.
Now there are four with any significant market share, and these are run by those interchangeable, plug-and-play financial types you write so perspicaciously about. Decades of management by such people, who didn’t know their own business but had a deep understanding of how artificially to drive up this quarter’s numbers while engineering golden parachutes, drove several of these companies into bankruptcy or near bankruptcy. The ed book companies were able to hold on for a while by perpetrating the high-stakes testing scam, which was and is an incredibly lucrative, high margin industry. The states, those suckers, will pay, literally, billions (1.7 billion per year, according to a recent study) for invalid and mind-numbingly sloppy tests produced for next to nothing and delivered online or in print copies costing pennies per unit to produce.
Then, thanks in part to Master of the Universe Bill Gates, we started seeing investor covens touting the big $$$ to be made by depersonalized education software startups. These have proliferated like Death Cap mushrooms and flesh-eating bacteria. But it’s a risky business. You have to spend a lot up front on marketing hype and sell a ton of product before it becomes clear that the product is good only at inducing in students (in this order) initial interest, then gag reactions, anger, indolence, and somnolence. Fortunately, the ignorance of state and district officials makes peddling nostrums like depersonalized education software pretty easy to pull off. Nonetheless, the shelf life of a depersonalized education software startup tends to be less than that of an official in the long-running farce known as the Trump misadministration.
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I have given some thought to why Coleman would ever have thought such a thing [“Nobody gives a s*** what you think]– let alone say it on youtube in the context of K12 writing. Where was he coming from?
While a philosophy undergrad at Yale he tutored inner-city kids in Eng lit. Then as a Rhodes scholar he studied Eng Lit at Oxford, also doing some classical philosophy at Cambridge. My knowledge of philosophers is limited to those studied as a Fr Lit major, but I can imagine that a dual interest in philosophy and lit might indicate a leaning toward systematic, structured lit analysis.
Clearly he had a strong interest in poetry: his fave analytical method, New Criticism [written all over CCSS-ELA], is the sort of thing you would only encounter in grad-level poetic study. It was a mid-20thC pendulum-swing from analytical methods derived from 19thC Germany. Think of New Criticism as a corrective to analysis that had over the yrs (particularly in US) strayed far from the text, going so far as to analyze poetry in terms of each word’s etymology & relationship to ancient languages, and to the poet’s bio. The method had fulfilled its function & fallen out of favor by the time Coleman would have encountered it. The typical critique (per wiki) was, New Criticism “treated literary texts as autonomous and divorced from historical context… its practitioners were “uninterested in the human meaning, the social function and effect of literature…” [In other words, “no one gives a s*** what you think.”]
So why was Coleman so drawn to this obsolete method that he imposed strict evidentiary et al “close reading” precepts on 21stC K12-ELA via CCSS? I think, for 3 reasons.
(1)His grad-level attraction to New Criticism was due to his twin interest in philosophy & lit, which made him look for a formal system of lit crit that he wasn’t finding in the relatively chaotic anti-meaning-meaning theories of the ‘90’s, namely deconstruction, structuralism, post-structuralism.
(2)Post-grad-studies, Coleman went directly into the consulting business; his concept of “the right way” to analyze lit probably stopped evolving circa 1993.
(3)—and perhaps most important—Coleman was studying poetry at Oxford during a turning point in modern Western poetics. Starting in early ‘80’s, there was a wave turning away from decades of relatively formless free-verse [& some would argue, by ‘70’s, navel-gazing poetry] back toward appreciation of classic poetical forms: re-interpreting the modern experience through sonnet, terza rima, sestina etc; re-discovering stricter rhymes; reaching harder for universal themes. During that era there was much vigorous renouncing of “personal poetry”—again, “nobody gives a s*** what you think.”
So that’s my take on Coleman. But every scholar has their motivations & pet peeves. The far more important Q: how on earth did our govtl public-school ed structure end up pushing K12 ELA stds on the entire nation that derive from one individual’s take on grad-level lit analysis, & his wrong-headed determination to apply it from K up?
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Well, you are being very kind, Bethree, in your learned analysis, above. One of the the many problems with Coleman’s Zombie New Criticism (or New Criticism raised from the dead) is that texts exist in context. It makes a difference whether the person saying “We need to tie up these loose ends” is a macrame instructor or Tony Soprano.
Yes, in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, literary scholars did stray very far from texts in their philological and biographical/historical scholarly approaches to literary criticism, and New Criticism was a corrective to those trends. However, Coleman’s naive embrace of New Criticism (did he read The Well-Wrought Urn in college?), which most critics long ago absorbed and moved past, ignores the role of intention in artistic creation. Pardon this long note, but I consider this an essential issue in hermeneutics, or the theory of literary interpretation.
In the twentieth century, the great defender of the author’s intention as the key to literary interpretation was E. D. Hirsch, Jr., my sometimes mentor. The great book on this traditional approach to hermeneutics was Hirsch’s Validity in Interpretation. He believed that there was a “correct” interpretation of a literary work (though this might not be fully discoverable) and that the relevant question when evaluating an interpretation was, “Does this interpretation best accord with the relevant facts with regard to what the author’s intention was?” And those facts include the text itself, the genre of the text, its historical context, and, importantly, the work in the context of the author’s life and the rest of his or her work.
The strongest argument for Hirsch’s approach is, I think, one he never made himself (though I spoke with him about this on a couple of occasions). Literary writing, like other writing and speech, is done with the intention of communicating something to others, both at present and across time. It’s about an intended transmission–passing something along into the stream of the culture. If you give up the idea of meaning as author’s intention, you have to give up this idea that one can write literature with the aim of communicating one’s intent. I don’t think we can give that up. LOL.
Nonetheless, Hirsch’s position was and is VERY controversial. Contemporary critics tend to view literary meaning as a construction on the part of the reader and the text as an occasion for that construction. And the construction can take very radical forms, according to these critics, including deconstruction of what appears to be the intention–showing, for example, that the work unintentionally belies its own overt statement. So, for example, Romeo and Juliet seems, on the surface, to be about the awful stuff that can happen when young love moves people to act rashly. It seems to be saying, “Don’t do that.” However, one can deconstruct this idea by pointing out that the most exalted passages of the work CELEBRATE the intense beauty and pleasure occasioned by this very rashness, so, while Shakespeare might have intended the former, the latter is the case. Similarly, on the surface, surrealist art seems to challenge conventional ways of viewing the world. However, it only works because of those conventions–because they are being broken–and so this “unconventional” art actually reinforces conventional ideas about the world.
I think that the way to cut the Gordian knot of this critical conundrum–do we credit the author’s intention or the reader’s construction?–is to recognize that there are two very different meanings of the word “meaning.” One is intentional meaning–what a speaker or writer means to say. The other is meaning as significance–what the work “means” to the reader. Much confusion in literary criticism, even very great criticism, comes from not recognizing this distinction. So, for example, conventionally, the “Beauty and the Beast” tale is taken to have the following intentional meaning: true love looks beyond outward appearances. However, to some feminist critics, the story is simply a medieval rape fantasy (and thus a horror). It tells women that they should learn to love (and submit unconditionally to) the bestial in men. Well, both can be true. It can have the former intended meaning, and it can have the latter significance to modern readers. Certainly, “Beauty and the Beast” initially served, historically, to reinforce acceptance of arranged marriages. One expects direct and indirect apologias to emerge when a social consensus starts breaking down.
But if one listens to the material surrounding Lord Coleman’s attack on narrative, this provides, I think, some insight into his major motivation. He and the neoliberal oligarchs whom he serves as vassal see the sole purpose of the schooling of Prole kids as preparing them for a workforce in which their superiors don’t care what they think and expect them to sit down, shut up, and do whatever inane task is set for them precisely as they have been told to do it. The New Criticism, devolved into reducing literary response to choosing the best answer in a list of answers in a multiple-choice questions, suits the authoritarian mindset of the oligarchical class. Lord Coleman decides for the rest of us what the standards [sic] are to be. These are tested via products we ordinary mortals aren’t even allowed to look at. And there is one correct answer, always–the answer the all-knowing powers-that-be decided on beforehand. Coleman’s is emphatically NOT a position taken based on deep scholarship. It is one taken based on an authoritarian mindset by someone who has been remunerated handsomely for his sycophancy. He vaguely, and without much understanding, remembered what he was taught in some lit course in college and found that it served the oligarchical purpose. One ring to rule them all! The rest is Ed Deform history.
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One further note: there is a difference between Hirsch’s notion of valid interpretation and the “one correct answer” approach one finds in high-stakes standardized testing. Hirch’s program, which I have characterized as dealing with one half of hermeneutics–the interpretation half as opposed to the significance half–assumes that recovering the intention can be quite difficult and muddy. The information relevant to recovering the author’s intention might well be complex, contradictory, or incompletely available. One argument often leveled against the Hirschian approach is that often the author himself or herself had no notion what the intention was or did not fully understand his or her own intentions and motivations. I think that approaching both the issues of intention AND significance in texts provides a big enough tent, in literary criticism, for accommodating and responding in good faith to such objections.
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ELA teachers, for some brief descriptions of various approaches to literary texts, see this document, which I prepared for other English teachers in my department: https://bobshepherdonline.wordpress.com/2019/03/24/approaches-to-literary-criticism/
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Bob, I’d like to think, many or even most writers don’t really think about their work to mean something in either of the ways you describe. They may not even have a clear plan for their novel or poem. They just feel, they need to write about the stuff which seems to want to come out of their heads.
In fact, t’s a turnoff for me to find out about the intentions or opinions of a writer. For me, the War and Peace is unreadable because of Tolstoy’s negative opinion of Napoleon (and generals, in general).which he declares often and explicitly in the book.
Whether the Beauty and the Beast was intended a timeless love story about tolerance or a rape narrative is immaterial. The interesting thing is how the reader interprets it—and the less influence she gets to do this the better.
Any true great work of art is open to rich interpretations: Wagner was lpved by Hitler but has also been enjoyed by progressives for over a century now—and of course there is a long string of people who just can’t stand Wagner. Many discussions on Wagner soon turns to his antisemitism, which has absolutely nothing to do with how a Wagner opera may affect a listener.
I like Gombrich’s declaration
Great works of art seem to look different every time one stands before them. They seem to be as inexhaustible and unpredictable as real human beings.
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Mate,
Your last quote reminds me of a definition of a classic. I don’t recall where I saw it. You read a classic and the classic reads you. As you grow older, you take different meanings from what you read. I recall being required to read “Silas Marner” in high school. Boring. Many years later, I read it again, and I cried. The book hadn’t changed. I had.
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Diane, then classics for you are like tomatoes for me: I hated them at age 6, now at 60 I couldn’t live without them. Tomatoes certainly haven’t changed in the last 50 years, and I am not sure it’s really crucial to find out whether tomatoes were originally created to be loved or hated or simply to make pizza possible.
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Interesting. It’s precisely this illustration and discussion of the fog of war that makes War and Peace, in my mind, a truly great and important novel. I love that Tolstoy pushed the boundaries of the form. So, you would definitely come down on the significance side of the two approaches to hermeneutics that I describe. I agree that that is where many of the riches are to be found. But I’m not ready, as a writer, to give up the notion that I can communicate via literary work, and, especially, that I can communicate that which is too rich and complicated and engaging to communicate in typical nonfictional prose–the whole Vietnam veteran “you wouldn’t know because you weren’t there, man” thing.
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Bob Shepherd and Mate: When reading Bob’s response, this actually jumped off the page at me:
” . . . the whole Vietnam veteran ‘you wouldn’t know because you weren’t there, man’ thing.”
If you’ve ever experienced a “jumped off the page” thing, then you have your camel’s nose under the tent of the idea that both aspects are central to reading and, more broadly, to the full potential of education. The relationship is interdependent and mutually informing.
And broadly, by “the full potential of education” I mean developing our human potential and opening the human spirit to what we don’t already know. In my view, the so-called reform movement is fueled by a bunch of people involved in low-grade Gnosticism . . . “they” know everything already (their horizon defines everything) which leaves no room for others gaining on what we don’t yet know, or for reaching into the mysteries of life–a very human thing to do. CBK
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You say so beautifully, Ms. King, what I was groping to say.
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Because of these complexities, Mate, I don’t think of the intention side, as Hirsch does, as being solely about what was clearly understood by the author but rather as being about what drove him her her to the expression, which is wider. And to some extent, this recovery of intention is a useful fiction because of the very complexity and lack of clarity that you describe. In the same way, the notion that what a historian does is to recover the truth about the past is indispensable even though it is fraught with issues. I think that we need the idea, in interpretation, that people meant to say something and that what they meant to say matters.
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Bob Shepherd The thing is, with story-telling, there is always MORE there than even the author meant; and as history unfolds, even THAT meaning changes in terms of it. CBK
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yes. entirely, entirely agreed
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Bob Shepherd Intentional or not, that’s what so-disturbs the Gnostic minds (sic) of the so-called reformers. CBK
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I can’t bring myself to listen to Wagner. All I hear in his overblown music is children screaming.
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Bob Shepherd: I’ve played the clarinet in amateur orchestras in the suburbs of Chicago that performed Wagner and loved it.
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You can hear that while listening to his music?
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It’s what that music sounds like to me. My reaction: revulsion, horror.
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Which are allowed (often intentional) effects of arts. 🙂 In my favorite movie for kids, a kid is complaining to an adult that the play they are performing is meant to be a drama but the audience is laughing. The adult replies “In theater it doesn’t matter if the audience is laughing or crying, you just don’t want them to be coughing.”
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I’m with you, Mate, that reducing the work to a separate statement by a writer of his or her intention is utterly unpalatable. However, I think that recovering intention from the work and its context is a valuable approach, as is exploration of its significance(s) to readers. English teachers do well, I think, generally to explain and illustrate to students that they have to take the author’s trip (to have an imaginative experience), to provide necessary background, and then to start with students’ reactions and help them to build upon those. There are many ways in and out of works of art, and I’m not about to say that all but recovering intention are invalid. So Mr. Hirsch and I disagree, there, but on the other hand, I am not about to give up on the notion that literary works communicate–that people write them because there’s something that they want others to know viscerally and that they want to understand, better, themselves. The question that you raise of the role of the Muse–what happens, in artistic creation when a work appears full blown and seems like transcription–is a fascinating one. I think that the best of my own poetry and fiction is like that. It was a gift to me, and I read something like Edgar Allan Poe’s lecture “The Philosophy of Composition” and think that it’s utter bs–there’s no way that his approach to literary composition was THAT deliberate, THAT contrived. With regard to the differing significances that people attribute to art, I tell my students that one reads a poem or novel or play differently than one reads a typical piece of nonficiton–you enter into the imaginative world of the work, you have experiences there, and those experiences have meaning to you. But here’s where intention enters into that: callow readers don’t bring much to the experience, and Whoosh, part of it goes over their heads. I take my five-year-old daughter to Rome, and we stand in the forum, and I think, “This is the very place where Anthony spoke over the body of Caesar. This is the very place where Caligula made his horse a Senator.” This is the statue of a vestal intentionally destroyed because she violated the rule of chastity.” My daughter thinks, “There are lizards on the ground!” These are valid but differing responses. She and I can learn from one another. Teachers can help students to become less callow by attending to that intentional side. We all can learn from varied reactions to art based on people’s unique experiences. I think that the tent of Literary Criticism is big enough to accommodate both.
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Love, love, love your analysis, Bethree. Smart!!!!
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Thanks, Bob. Here is the first of two reactions to your terrific post @ 7/7 8:21pm
Of course the residual value of New Criticism cannot survive the conversion to petty stds & their aligned mult-choice assessments, nor can any theory of lit interpretation. And search though I might for goodies retained somewhere in CCSS, the commercial context makes all of it suspect.
Your explanation of the two “meanings” is excellent. It sounds very much like construction/ deconstruction comes from mid-20thC existentialist thinking. The works of Sartre, Camus et al were tremendously helpful to me during my passage from fatalist [“destiny”] Christianity to a spiritualism that encompassed all the world religions plus new-agey stuff too. I needed to pass through that “there is no reason for anything” / “all meaning is of equivalent value” type thought before I could come out on the other side, which is that, as you say re: Beauty and the Beast, both [or all!] can be true.
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The notion that life is meaningless/absurd simply does not follow from Sartre’s premises. I discuss that here, in the critique that follows my whirlwind overview of Sartre’s major ideas: https://bobshepherdonline.wordpress.com/2019/03/18/existentialism-in-five-minutes-bob-shepherd/. I made much the same journey that you describe, Bethree!
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Haha Bob I was about to share that “I have an affinity w/New Criticism in this narrow sense: to me a poem is an objet d’art no different from a painting. The greater the work, the less context required… [e.g. Guernica by Picasso]”– but 😀 I had to stop writing as I thought of (a)my very 1st exposure to Pollock where a museum docent turned me from dismisser to appreciater (b)my mind began volunteering multiple examples of all the poems and paintings I’ve come to appreciate more deeply the more I learned about them. I will still hang onto this shred of my thesis: the valuable context is historical/ cultural/ technical [not Coleman’s formulaic ‘tech’ concepts], not so much bio/ author intent… But then again, hmmm. Mind jumping to Plath, Adrienne Rich, Rimbaud, Wilde, Proust… 😉
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There are these valuable pieces to retain from the New Criticism (and from the sort of close analysis that Empson did). I agree with you and with the New Critics that, in the words of Randall Jarrell, “the work is a world.” Really great works ramify and create these extraordinarily rich imaginative worlds because of their precise associations. I HATE HATE HATE the kind of thing that some English teachers do when they reduce a work to some blithering generality, with a lot of complexity and precision. That’s why great work isn’t translatable, exactly (another New Critical tenet worth remembering/keeping). It seems to me that a truly great work does exactly the opposite–its connotative ramifications create a very, very precise little world. But where the New Criticism falls apart is that getting it–getting what’s happening in the work–often requires understanding brought to the work from the outside–knowledge, for example, of the genre in which the authors is working and of the conventions of that genre. Often, what’s happening in the work comes from the author’s consciously toying with these. And sometimes, biographical or historical knowledge can be quite illuminating. For example, many people find Wallace Stevens quite opaque. However, knowing that he was heavily influenced by the phenomenologists and distrustful, philosophically, of abstraction that does not grow out of “the thing itself” in its various guises via what Husserl called the eidetic reduction clarifies A LOT of what’s going on in his work. Similarly, the phrase from Dylan Thomas “the twelve triangles of the cherub wind” seems extraordinarily opaque until someone reminds you of the little cherub heads that people used to draw on maps, blowing the winds and circumscribing triangles on the maps. That’s outside knowledge, assumed by the writer, that all readers will not have or that might simply not occur to a reader, and a critic (or teacher) can supply it.
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Yikes! Something happened to the middle of my comment. I hate when people reduce a work to some blithering generality–the sort of lesson in which the teacher hunts for that. Great works create a little world with a lot of precision–the very opposite of generalization–and close reading reveals that world in its complexity–the imaginative world that we enter into as readers. That’s because really great work ramifies, by association and various kinds of figurative language and allusion–and close reading can reveal that, can unfold the world of the work in its entirety. So, that’s what I retain from the New Critical approach. And that’s definitely, as you say, NOT what Coleman’s Zombie New Criticism Lite encourages.
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Bethree5, the question is how on earth the govt ended up listening to somebody who openly declared that he doesn’t give a crap about kids.
Personally, I couldn’t care less about how Coleman has become such a cold, calculating idiot. People like him simply exist. As long as a system supports such freaky, twisted worldviews, these people will thrive. If a system doesn’t support them, doesn reward their freaky behavior and philosophy, we’ll never learn about them since they are rare: they make up .1% of the population.
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I’ve read that psychopaths make up about 1 percent of the population and sociopaths, 4 percent.
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So then 1 in 100 of psycho/sociopaths becomes an insanely rich wealthy leader, and these people make up the .1% who tell us how things are and will be. A very high percentage compared to the rest of the population while normally they should just live through their lives unnoticed, barely annoying their neighbors and family.
Just think about it: a talented but courageous football player’s career ends for kneeling through the national anthem while an idiot who is well known for not caring one bit about kids is entrusted with designing 50 million kids’ curriculum and then their college testing. The only conclusion I can draw is that something in our system prefers the Coleman type over decent, productive, talented folks.
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yes, yes, yes. And that’s why we are currently undergoing this churn, this foment, this phase transition
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Mate Wierdl That some know how to appeal to the worst in us, or that the worst has its perverse power over us at times, does not mean that the worst is the only thing or, ironically, that what is worst in us is what is, somehow, the best that we can do (<–a statement of perversity, if there ever was one). What the test-makers tend to do is to make canned abstractions of themselves and of our students, and so to forget both the potentials hidden in human development and the history of its actual method of manifestation, their own and everyone else’s. I doubt Shakespeare ever had to meet someone’s idea of an educational standard. CBK
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Speaking of sociopaths and psychopaths…Trump. I’m surprised that so many have lives are NOT improving but they still think Trump is doing a great job. Unbelievable stupidity. I wonder how many of the 4 in 10 who have problems paying their bills support the Orange Hair Monster?
………………………………………………………..
The economy is lifting Trump’s approval rating but leaving many Americans behind..WaPo
Trump’s 44 percent approval rating in the survey is the highest of his presidency, and they credit that to voter perceptions that the president has effectively led on the economy…
“The bottom half has less wealth today, after adjusting for inflation, than it did in 1989, according to Fed data through March of this year.”
The Brookings Institution found an even starker wealth divide. Per the left-leaning think tank, the top one percent holds more wealth than the middle class — over $25 trillion as of 2016, versus $18 trillion held by the middle class. That’s a new state of affairs. “Before 2010, the middle class owned more wealth the top one percent,” the organization noted last month. “Since 1995, the share of wealth held by the middle class has steadily declined, while the top one percent’s share has steadily increased.”
The June jobs report, released Friday, showed job growth bounced back after a lackluster May. Employers beat expectations by adding 224,000 jobs last month. But wage growth continues to lag: Wages climbed 3.1 percent from a year earlier, a pace that hasn’t improved in months. And, per Heather, the UBS survey found four in 10 Americans say they still struggle to pay their bills.
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Ah, thanks for that clarification, Mate!
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Máté, you are more than forgiven your lack of interest in dissecting the personalities of the hideous trolls who are ruining our daily lives, I’ll admit it’s a bizarre & useless hobby. What I take from it—what I’ve always taken from it—is that (a)humanity is full of selfish, avaricious, authoritarian creeps [way more than 0.1%] , (b)too little govtl regulation encourages them to grow multiple heads, & greatly reduces the public’s supply of hatchets, & (c)congress has ceded too much power to the executive branch!
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Carol: Speaking of psychopaths, Trump
exactly
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Bob Shepherd I think that, to a Gnostic, the open and ranging, even endless, meaning in literature is threatening to their canned view of life and siloed horizon. We are all on a developmental “movement.” A reading at one point in our life will take on a different hue at a later time in our life. That’s not a problem for open-minded people–rather, it’s the point. And it’s what test-makers hate and de facto reject about education.
I remember Carol Burnett telling a story about sitting at her daughter’s bedside telling her some profound meaning of something or other, and thinking her daughter’s facial expression was full of wonder when her daughter asked: Mom, how many teeth do you have?” CBK
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Oh, my Lord, that is a wonderful story! And I want to say that I am very, very grateful to have such thoughtful people as you and Mate and Carol to discuss these matters with here in Diane’s living room. I, too, have nothing but disdain for that Gnostic notion that the few initiates have the KEY. There’s a terrible irony, a worm at the heart, in that. Certainty is the symptom where ignorance is the disease. And I think you are right to say that this is an inheritance, in our culture, from the Gnostic Neoplatonism. That’s my understanding of this as well. It’s interesting to me how dead philosophies have these lingering, zombie afterlives. Here’s a verse I wrote about that. It’s far, far from the best thing I ever wrote precisely because it suffers from didacticism–from my having had an idea I wanted to communicate and nothing more. (Frost wrote that it is a fake poem and no poem at all when the best of it is thought up first and saved for last. . . . No surprise for the writer, no surprise for the reader.) But this, admittedly not my best work, addresses directly the profound issue that you raise and discuss so wisely, Catherine: https://bobshepherdonline.wordpress.com/poetry/history-lesson-or-on-the-hinterweltlern/
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Bob Shepherd Back at you . . . though I happen to love Plato’s works much more than those of his interpreters. CBK
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What saves Plato, at times, for me, is his role as dramatist. My favorite moment in all the dialogues I’ve read is that in the Phaedrus in which Socrates discusses the environs in which, by tradition, Boreas carried away Orithuia. Socrates’s sensitivity to his surroundings, there, belies any Euhemeristic rationalism he might be inclined to, and Socrates, himself, in the dialogue, is aware of this. I blame Plato for the contemptus mundi that informed the rape of the Earth by Westerners. It’s a heavy charge I lay upon him, and perhaps not entirely deserved, for I hold him responsible for what people made of him (Is it fair to Marx to blame him for Stalin?), but this is the man who would have banned poets from his ideal state. Part of the problem lies, I suspect, in habits of thought that Plato inherited and did not examine. For example, in his work, the word aerete, typically translated into English as “virtue,” meant something more like “efficiency.” So one could speak of a virtuous man or state or shoe–the latter being one that wouldn’t wear out easily, that would protect the feet, etc. Embedded, fossilized, in that word is the notion that those characteristics that make something virtuous are pre-existing and waiting to be discovered rather than forged, constructed by us, to suit real (and changing) human needs and desires. In that direction lies totalitarianism.
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Bob Shepherd If we read and critique Plato (or anyone) out of their own context, we tend to get what we pay for, so to speak–thus, we get being “happy” from Aristotle’s “well being”<–a HUGE difference. But one way to understand Plato’s ideal state is to know that, by ideal, he didn’t mean here and now, but what we are all aimed at. And that, from an historical point of view, we need poets in order to get there if, indeed, we ever do. CBK
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There are ideas and ways of thinking in Plato that I think are fundamentally and dangerously wrong. I try to read him in context–that in itself is a complex and very difficult undertaking–and still, much of what I find there bothers me. This bifurcation of the spirit and of the world, so central to his thinking, is the very opposite of the almost universal indigenous view of the world and the spirit as one. Here I discuss what I mean in greater detail: https://bobshepherdonline.wordpress.com/2019/03/18/ideas-matter-exhibit-1-the-horrific-legacy-of-christian-neo-platonism/
This splitting of the universe into the fallen world, on the one hand, and the perfect world of the spirit on the other is, in my view, a virus, originating in Plato, that has absolutely permeated our thinking and language to such an extent that it’s very difficult for us to think differently, as so many indigenous peoples did. One sees this, for example, in the distorted retellings of native American tales by Europeans, who just don’t grok native pantheism–the idea that the world itself is made up of spiritual powers and that one can experience these, in that mode, in vision.
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Bob Shepherd I think you are reading history through the eyes that you think one of its poets left for you to read through. Plato’s works are works of great meaning, like the allegory of the cave which deserve to fall under the kind of openness of mind, and range of meaning, that we spoke of earlier on this blog. CBK
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“I happen to love Plato’s works much more than those of his interpreters. ”
It’s interesting how interpretations of authors’ intentions vary—almost as much as readers’. Lately with my old colleague we went back and reread some of Einstein’s original papers, and we found that many of the interpretations of his work that appear in textbooks and in scientific papers appear nowhere in Einstein’s work.
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Fascinating, Mate! Have you written about your explorations of those papers somewhere? On your blog?
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Nah, no blog, Bob. So far these are personal dicussions, mostly led by my colleague and friend, so they are in Hungarian. We have yet to see where they lead us.
In any case, this is not the first time that I noticed that interpreters of great works, artists, scientists exhibit a rich fantasy life. While this is often annoying and can be definitely misleading (especially in science), I understand how this may happen. I personally never ever look at the “extra” stuff they offer on DVDs: director’s cuts, director’s and actors’ narrative related to the movie or performance. I want to form my own opinion about a movie or performance, uninfluenced by any “official one” provided by the creators. Yeah, I could be completely off, but I rarely regret this.
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But, on the other hand, Mate, I often find when reading secondary sources that the original is illuminated for me by what others who know more than I are capable of seeing in the original. One of my favorite works of literary criticism is The Poem Itself, edited by Stanley Burnshaw. This consists of translations into English of poems from around the world along with line-by-line, often phrase-by-phrase or word-by-word discussions of the translation falls short–of what is there in the original language that the translation doesn’t capture.
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I think the reading of the Bible may be the best example for the vast number of possibile interpretations. As you said, Bob, we can learn a lot from some of these interpretations, while some interpretations resulted in wars. and some interpretations were defended by the Inquisition.
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Máté Wierdl: “I think the reading of the Bible may be the best example for the vast number of possible interpretations.”
I totally dislike the interpretations that say gays are ‘abominable in the eyes of God’. My belief is that those portions of the bible were written by men. God means loving, caring, healing and beauty, not condemnation. I often hear, “Love yourself as much as possible and then love others a wee bit more.” Love is the answer to most of the problems on earth.
I am a spiritualist.
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And so, our interpretations matter, and some are more defensible than other are. And that is, ofc, where hermeneutics, in the West, grew up–in interpretation of the Bible and of Greek and Roman texts.
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One other comment, Mate. The READING WITH another that you describe seems to me a pretty good description of what we should be doing in our classrooms.
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Well, CBK, perhaps. I shall bear your comments in mind when I return to and reread Plato, as I do from time to time. My take has been that he, like almost everyone else with the means at the time, went to Eleusis, had that transformative psychonautic experience, and misinterpreted it not as seeing the world in a different mode or manifestation–the world as seen in a state of vision–but as getting a glimpse of a different, higher, SEPARATE world of which this one is but a degenerate copy. That notion of the fallenness of the world has had truly dire effects–it’s found in the instrumentalization, the objectification, of everything by Westerners–of workers, of women, of other animals, of colonial lands, of the Earth itself. But perhaps I am not being generous enough in my reading of him, and perhaps I am being too influenced by how he was read, over the centuries, by Westerners building on the Platonic/Christian synthesis. Certainly, there are important things that we owe to Plato–the Socratic method, close analysis. But it’s hard not to read The Republic as anything but a naive recipe for totalitarianism, whatever Plato’s intent.
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Bob Shepherd writes: “But it’s hard not to read The Republic as anything but a naive recipe for totalitarianism, whatever Plato’s intent.”
In my view, only if we read it as if it’s NOT an ideal, that is, a way of being to shoot for. He had the dialectical structure right, I think. I have always thought that greed (for instance, from The Republic) is a kind of falling down of the human spirit. CBK
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Your point, CBK, is, as usual, very well made.
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Máté, I also prefer to read a work or watch a movie w/o excess input, at least until after I’ve taken it in as published. Extra features on a movie are interesting after the fact. I read introductions after I finish a novel. While reading, it’s tough to resist the internet—I’m really trying to see the world as the writer is telling it first. If it’s not high lit tho, I’m all over the maps and images and historical context.
Bob, I was raised on the Knox Holy Bible, “a translation of the Vulgate in light of original Greek and Hebrew manuscripts.” I suppose it’s not for everyone, but my mother’s clan was full of polyglots & linguists, so translations were suspect, & the footnotes allayed that to a degree.
Bob, thanks for this book tip! I hate reading poetry in translation & do so only reluctantly to see what all the fuss is about. Ordered a copy of Burnshaw’s “The Poem Itself.”
Máté/ Bob: hurray for “reading with another”! My book club is a bunch of oldsters of wildy differing nat’l/ cultural/ ed backgrounds; most just loved school & wistful for those ‘60’s-era hisch Eng class discussions. Re: Plato/ Western dualism, we must sense a need to balance that, as a good half of our selections are from E & S Asia & indigenous cultures.
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Our access to indigenous ways of thought typically comes from retellings of retellings of retellings of materials gathered by white, Western anthropologists who saw through their own dualist lens and misinterpreted what they were hearing accordingly. Cortez wrote in a journal that there seemed to be no religion among the Cherokee of Tenasi (the large village from which we get the name Tennessee) because he didn’t see any temples or meet any priests. Well, to the Cherokee, the world was the temple, and each person was a priest who stood upright in his or her own divinity.
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Bob Shepherd: “Cortez wrote in a journal that there seemed to be no religion among the Cherokee of Tenasi (the large village from which we get the name Tennessee) because he didn’t see any temples or meet any priests. Well, to the Cherokee, the world was the temple, and each person was a priest who stood upright in his or her own divinity.”
I am currently under the guidance of a Cherokee shaman. He is a man with amazing abilities. I won’t go into what I know, but his knowledge and abilities are adding to the healing of people and to the stability of the planet. It would have been a horrible shame for the Western establishment to deprive humanity of their knowledge. He prefers to work ‘under the wire’ and I’ve heard that a number of people with extreme abilities do that.
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This is way off topic, but one that I’m intrigued with. How to people in China think? This is news from Hong Kong.
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From Inkstone:
Why China has no civil society
July 9, 2019
What do Chinese people believe in?
I think they believe in a set of private ethics. Private ethics are related to the gains or losses belonging to oneself and one’s small circle of friends and family, rather than on the greater social good.
Chinese people often prefer to operate in ways that are ambiguous and flexible. This is why they often prefer to deal with matters by using personal relationships, rather than strict and clearly-defined public rules.
For example, if someone receives a ticket when driving in China, their first reaction may be to find a friend to help to renegotiate the ticket, instead of paying the fines or study the traffic rules.
Today’s China is still far from becoming a civil society and a legal society that respect the rule of law. Most Chinese these days are still firm believers of private ethics that focus more on individuals rather than society as a whole, just like their ancient ancestors…
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Not off-topic for me, Carol, as you can see from my previous comment. Thanks for the link: I tucked this article away for the next time my club reads something related.
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Here is more about life in China from a trans lady. It must be a very difficult life to never be accepted by society…and not just in China.
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“I decided it was time to be myself”, Chao Xiaomi
I tried therapy for a while, but the therapist could not understand me…- Chao Xiaomi
…The center does not have statistics pointing to the number of transgender people in China, nor are there any official estimates.
But a 2014 report by Asia Catalyst, an NGO that promotes the rights of marginalized communities, estimates the country’s transgender population to be in the region of 4 million people – about 1 in every 350 people.
Her dream is to form an association with the goals of educating the general public about transgenderism and supporting transgender people among China’s many ethnic minority communities.
“Big cities are, to a certain extent, more open-minded when it comes to transgender people, so with my association I want to reach the smallest and most traditional communities of China,” she says.
In the meantime, she continues to be active as a speaker and influencer, and is currently organizing a large concert that will take place in the southwestern city of Chengdu in support of the transgender community.
Chao’s relationship with her family is still somewhat tense.
Every annual visit back to Shanxi for Lunar New Year is a reminder that many relatives have turned their backs on her…
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There is ever the quest for words to describe our ‘great leader’. Turdweasel sounds good to me. I don’t like jizztrumpet because trumpets shouldn’t be put down. They are beautiful instruments.
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The word shitgibbon hit it big when Donald Trump was called a “tiny fingered, Cheeto-faced, ferret wearing shitgibbon” on Twitter and then made an even bigger splash when Pennsylvania state Sen. Daylin Leach called the president a “fascist, loofa-faced, shit-gibbon.”
Taylor Jones, a graduate student in linguistics from the University of Pennsylvania, wrote a post on his Language Jones blog that considers how shitgibbon fits an emerging pattern for obscene insults like douchewaffle, turdweasel, and jizztrumpet.
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