This is a story that made me happy. I graduated from a non-selective, open admissions public high school in Houston. It was untracked (but unfortunately it was racially segregated like all schools in Houston because I graduated in 1956). I never heard of selective admissions until I came to New York City. Or tracking or magnet schools (which were originally designed to promote racial integration, not as havens for white students).
Matt Barnum writes about studies showing that it really doesn’t matter whether a student goes to a selective high school.
“Studies looking at the test-in schools in those cities and in Chicago have found that students receive little if any measurable benefit from attending them. Students with similar qualifications who attend high school elsewhere end up with comparable SAT scores and college admissions offers, they find.
“There is perhaps too much attention on these test schools as if they’re lifesavers, and we have evidence that maybe they’re not,” said Tomas Monarrez, who studies segregation at the Urban Institute….
”In a 2014 study titled “The Elite Illusion,” Pathak and other researchers compared students who just made the cut to attend a test-in school in Boston or New York City and similar students who fell just short. (Notably, the Boston schools, unlike New York City’s, don’t rely exclusively on test scores for admissions decisions.)
“The difference in test scores, including on the SAT and Advanced Placement exams, between the two groups was largely nonexistent.
“Perhaps more important to parents and students is whether attending one of those household-name schools helps kids get into a better college. The answer, according to a separate study focusing on New York City’s specialized high school graduates between 1994 and 2013, is not really.
“There was no evidence that those students were more likely to enroll in college, complete college, or attend an especially elite institution than comparable students who went to high school elsewhere. There was also little difference between students who just missed the cutoff for Stuyvesant but got into another of the test-in schools, like Bronx Science.
“The Boston study came to similar conclusions.
“In some cases, there were even negative effects: Students who just made it into Brooklyn Tech were actually 2 percentage points less likely to graduate from a four-year college as a result….
”The many clubs and activities found at some exam schools may expose students to ideas and concepts not easily captured by achievement tests or our post-secondary outcomes,” wrote the Boston and New York City researchers.
“That idea strengthens the case for adjusting the selection process to admit more black and Hispanic students who otherwise wouldn’t have access to those resources.
“It is still important to try to open the door of these schools,” The Urban Institute’s Monarrez said. “But perhaps [we should] just not think of these schools as the best and only answer to these problems.”
Diane Ravitch's blog 
Selective high schools, another great Rat race to the dead end of a maze program. Scurry scurry, worry worry, hurry hurry, is the basis of enlightened education?
or, rather than an enlightened education, more accurately a severely truncated education?
Glad to read that segregation doesn’t help either group, but we already knew that. This is confirmation and I am thankful for it. Integration helps everyone. ‘Selective’ and ‘public’ do not belong together. How about a selective national park. How about selective seating on public transit. We’re not too far separated from selective drinking fountains, and we still have selective voting rights. We still have selective public schools. Shame on us. For such intelligent people, we’re not too bright.
Is this, like other studies, misguided because it tries to look for things to count that you can count? What really counts in education cannot be counted, Nonwithstanding claims to the contrary by social scientists. These school might be doing a fantastic job. Or they might be a total flop. No one knows. Students who graduate from them and feel the wonder of a great education do not really know if they got that education because of the school or because they were perfectly matched to the moment. Students who graduate from other schools do not know either. It is only after a lifetime, that some of us can reflect on our fortunate or unfortunate twists of fate.
The operant question is too complex to evaluate without extensive discussion among educators who are in the classroom. Do we need to offer to get kids who find math easy off in a class by themselves so they can learn more math? Or do we need to look at alternatives that will help them be engaged? Do we need a special math class for girls proficient in math? How about a grouping of students based on whether they are capable of seeing the emotional meaning in a piece of poetry?
Finally, why can neighborhood schools not be funded at a level that makes it possible for teachers to offer each child the experience they need to educationally self-actualize. Bright motivated students often chafe at the time teachers spend in class trying to reach children who,are not ready to learn. Do they not have the right to learn rather than listen to the disruption of those not taught to revere learning? Or do they mistake the whole situation, not realizing that some students need to vocalize to learn, and others need total silence?
School, like democracy, is messy. Perhaps this is the most important message a student can get from education. Can you learn that from a magnet?
I attended a selective high school long before the whole idea of magnet schools existed. The school was very competitive and challenging. I am sure I would have done well in a quality comprehensive public school, but this was not an option. I do not think my high school was as selective as those in the NYC system. The school was integrated, and it seemed to include students from all over the city. I think they had some type of system to try to balance the school so that no one neighborhood school experienced too many students leaving for the selective school. I do not know how students were chosen as some students had to take an exam, and others did not.
I question the motives of any article Chalkbeat publishes. What is their solution then to the current issue? More charter high schools? No, thank you.
Did the study take into account the connection factor? I mean, the main reason to go to Harvard isn’t the superior teachers or curriculum, it’s the chance to rub elbows with the elite and influential. I’m guessing it would be the same at selective enrollment schools. It’s not every school that people like Rahm and Rauner try to clout their kids into.
Selective schools are a product of segrenomics. As Diane suggested, read Cutting School, by Noliwe Rooks.
I have to say that very few people who have posted on this topic over the last couple weeks have any notion of what goes on at Stuy, Bronx Science or other, similar schools scattered across the nation (e.g., Thomas Jefferson Science, in Virgina). Likewise, the articles cited by Barnum were studies of borderline/cutoff students and are not new.
The arguments for and against having such schools, and those argument surrounding the schools’ admissions policies are very nuanced. How many commentors here have even taught in the high school environment?…taught similar classes?…taught similar sets of students?
Anyone?
Steve,
I confess I have never taught high school students. I have taught graduate students.
However I did attend a nonselective public high school.
I doubt that NYC will ever get rid of the selective admission high schools because their alumni are very powerful.
But if NYC education were being reinvented, I would not create selective admission high schools.
I wish that all high schools had great offerings and programs for all kinds of students.
There are excellent high schools in the city that are not Stuy, Bronx Science or Bklyn Tech.
I am very familiar with selective schools.
They should exist. It’s not about the great offerings and programs – that is all bells and whistles. It’s the work.
Asking teachers to create a curriculum to match the needs of their students should be difficult at all levels.
If it’s truly a gifted, selective program, the students shouldn’t be doing the same curriculum as the other kids. It shouldn’t be about modifying the curriculum or adding extension tasks. Your goal is not for the students to succeed with AP courses – just another silly test – you are working to go beyond that.
But saying all that, I guarantee most selective programs are probably just following a basic curriculum and adding some extension projects. I wish schools had to prove their “selective” status, but it would probably just be in some form of a test…
Steve,
I have not taught high school students,but I have taught a great many first year college undergraduates at a not very selective university. I also had a child that ran out of math classes to take at the local high school when he was 15 and out science classes when he was 16. Luckily he was able to enroll at the local university as a special student so we could keep him intellectually occupied.
I think that most people fail to realize 1) how important having access to a math curriculum like that offered at Stuy or TJ is for these students and 2) perhaps even more importantly access to peers who share the same academic enthusiasms.
It is likely that everyone who posts here is in favor of an appropriate curriculum for students with learning disabilities and everyone would be against giving students an inappropriately difficult class. Few, however, are concerned that gifted students have access to an appropriate curriculum (The high school principal of the year once commented here that BC Calculus was certainly the most advanced class that should be taught in a high school), and no one much cares if a class is trivially easy for a student.
These students don’t really count as part of the “all” in this blog.
teachingeconomist: “The high school principal of the year once commented here that BC Calculus was certainly the most advanced class that should be taught in a high school), and no one much cares if a class is trivially easy for a student.
These students don’t really count as part of the “all” in this blog.”
For the record, “those students” make up a relatively small percentage of the students at TJ or Stuy. Maybe 20%? Perhaps more or less but even at those highly selective schools the majority of students will never want nor choose to take a math class beyond Calc BC in high school.
And it will probably surprise you that it is possible to graduate from Stuy with the highest math class being pre-calculus.
In fact, I suspect that some very good (but not near genius) math students may be ill-served by having such a highly accelerated curriculum that convinces them they aren’t very good at math when they could soar if the curriculum wasn’t so accelerated.
What really bothers me is the false myth that somehow students who need more than Calc BC will be irreparably harmed if they have too many students in their school who just want pre-calculus. Those advanced math classes can be offered to the small percentage of students who want it in more diverse schools.
I support magnet schools but when single-test in magnets leave out entire populations of strong, motivated but very disadvantaged students, everyone loses. Including the students in those magnets where those kids are excluded as they never get to see how a test score has very little relevance to how much those strong and motivated students add to the classroom.
NYPSP,
I agree that these students are a small percentage of K-12 students, but yet they do exist. Perhaps it would better to say that the people who post here are interested in a better education for almost all students.
I think it is great that a student can graduate from Stuy having only taken pre calculus. That is a higher standard than my local high school. What is also great is that a student can graduate from Stuy having taken multivariable calculus and complex calculus, courses that are only available to high school students at schools like Stuy or those able to enroll in university while still in high school.
As for harming the student, let me put aside the question of whether we should only care about irreparable harms done to students. I do think we should also care about other harms, but that would require a longer post. We should give these students access to these courses for exactly the same reason we should give students access to Shakespeare and Milton.
TE,
Your only interest in education appears to be an n of 1–your son. Entire school systems can’t be built around your child.
It’s interesting that the authors only looked at students matriculating into exam schools in Boston from the Boston Public Schools. For the last year of which I have numbers, 60% of students admitted to Boston Latin School come from outside BPS, primarily from parochial schools, but also from private schools. It’s noted in the study that, if students do not receive a seat at the exam schools, they do not take another BPS seat, choosing to remain outside the system. That’s a fine example of opportunity hoarding.
It’s true that Boston does not use only exam scores from the ISEE alone to determine acceptance. 50% is based on student’s GPA ranking in English and math. Astonishingly, for students at one parochial school, 69% of the submitted rankings were tallied as A+. Really?
Finally, the material on the ISEE does not correspond to the curriculum taught in BPS. Algebra is on the exam, but 6th graders applying for 7th grade seats have not had algebra, for example. The ERB has admitted that the ISEE has only been validated for white students (85% of BPS students are non-white) and the ERB has been the sole bidder for the admissions tests for multiple years.
http://www.educationviews.org/boston-schools-ignored-anti-bias-bid-specs-in-awarding-testing-contracts/
The district’s response has been to double down with the invalid testing. Acceptances for the 2019-20 school year have been sent out already. To “mitigate” access to the flawed test, next year testing will be offered during the school day to all students who opt-in, rather that on the traditional weekend administration. There is also a two-week test prep offered during the summer, but no transportation is provided to a site that is quite a distance from most neighborhoods via public transportation.
Hard to see how that will help.
It’s interesting that the authors only looked at students matriculating into exam schools in Boston from the Boston Public Schools. For the last year of which I have numbers, 60% of students admitted to Boston Latin School come from outside BPS, primarily from parochial schools, but also from private schools. It’s noted in the study that, if students do not receive a seat at the exam schools, they do not take another BPS seat, choosing to remain outside the system. That’s a fine example of opportunity hoarding.
It’s true that Boston does not use only exam scores from the ISEE alone to determine acceptance. 50% is based on student’s GPA ranking in English and math. Astonishingly, for students at one parochial school, 69% of the submitted rankings were tallied as A+. Really?
Finally, the material on the ISEE does not correspond to the curriculum taught in BPS. Algebra is on the exam, but 6th graders applying for 7th grade seats have not had algebra, for example. The ERB has admitted that the ISEE has only been validated for white students (85% of BPS students are non-white) and the ERB has been the sole bidder for the admissions tests for multiple years.
http://www.educationviews.org/boston-schools-ignored-anti-bias-bid-specs-in-awarding-testing-contracts/
The district’s response has been to double down with the invalid testing. Acceptances for the 2019-20 school year have been sent out already. To “mitigate” access to the flawed test, next year testing will be offered during the school day to all students who opt-in, rather that on the traditional weekend administration. There is also a two-week test prep offered during the summer, but no transportation is provided to a site that is quite a distance from most neighborhoods via public transportation.
Hard to see how that will help.