Yesterday, I participated in a panel discussion at the Washington Post about national issues in education with Robert Pondiscio of the conservative Thomas B. Fordham Institute and Dean Bridget Terry Long of the Harvard Graduate School of Education. This followed a few other panels, including one in which Mayor Rahm Emanuel and his chosen school superintendent Janice Jackson lavished praise on their successful efforts to transform the public schools of Chicago, with nary a dissent.
Our panel did include dissent, since I was critical of school choice and the other two panelists supported it. I was critical of standardized testing, and Dean Long supported it.
Valerie Strauss did a great job moderating and keeping us on track.
In my opening statement, I argued that the key education issue of our time was the defunding of public schools by the federal and state governments. NCLB and Race to the Top had failed, because they emphasized testing and choice. But at the same time that the federal government disrupted schools and misdirected them with mandates, most states pursued a policy of cutting taxes, cutting school funding, and substituting “school choice” for adequate funding. I cited the Center for Budget and Policy Priorities report showing that 29 states spent less on education in the decade after the 2008 recession.
In our discussion of school choice, I said that school choice is the rightwing agenda that has been funded by Betsy DeVos, the Koch brothers, and the Walton family for decades. It was unfortunate that some Democrats joined their crusade to privatize education. I cited the blistering report about charter schools by Integrity Florida, which showed that rightwing money had promoted charters and vouchers and insulated them from any accountability. Furthermore, the money directed to charter schools had undermined the fiscal stability of public schools.
Robert Pondiscio retorted that school choice was not a “rightwing agenda,” it was a “moral agenda.”
In other words, he echoed the religious/moral rhetoric of Betsy DeVos.
He snidely said that both he and I had sent our children to private schools, so why shouldn’t poor families have the same choices?
This, I thought, was a low blow, because my husband and I didn’t ask for public funds to send our children to private schools 50 years ago. In retrospect, I think it was a mistake not to send them to public schools; it would have benefited them. But that is one of many mistakes I have made in my life.
Today, we know that charter and voucher schools do the choosing more often than parents. If you are the parent of a child with special needs, the odds are high that he/she will not be accepted by any charter school unless the disability is very mild and remediable. Furthermore, the public money available for vouchers will NOT enable poor parents to have the same choices as rich parents, since most voucher payments are in the range of $5,000-7,000 and elite private schools are usually $40,000-60,000. So, no, a voucher will not be enough to send your child to the Hill School, where the Trump children went.
He implied that it was “moral” to take money away from underfunded public schools so that a small percentage of students could choose to go to a charter school or religious school. If it was the former, it might close in a few months or it might kick the student out because of his or her behavior or disability; if it was the latter, the children might have an uncertified teacher or be exposed to textbooks that justify slavery and teach creation science.
He did not suggest that states and the federal government should appropriate more money to pay for choice. If there is not more money, then the schools that enroll 95% of the community’s children lose funding, cut teachers, have larger-sized classes, and lose electives and the arts.
It would be easier to argue that underfunding the public schools that most children attend is immoral. And that paying professional teachers so little that they have to work two or three extra jobs to make ends meet is immoral. And that denying the nation’s public school children the resources they need to have reasonable class sizes, professional teachers, the arts, and time for physical activity is immoral.
I offered the examples of Detroit and Milwaukee as school districts awash in school choice where students have not benefited. They are both among the lowest performing districts in the nation. No response from my fellow panelists.
I contend that it is immoral, unjust, and inequitable to advocate for policies that hurt 95% of students so that 5% can go to a private school. It is even more unjust to destabilize an entire school district by introducing a welter of confusing choices, including schools that open and close like day lilies.
Why don’t the advocates of school choice also advocate for funding to replace the money removed from the public schools?
PS: Thanks to Mike Petrilli for sending me the link to our panel.
Robert Pondiscio is not the only Alt-Right extremist redefining what words like “moral” mean.
The Oxford English Dictionary defines “moral”: Principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/morality
Robert Pondiscio is a minion and mind-slave (he sold his soul to the highest bidder) of the Alt-Right’s autocratic loving, wealth worshiping billionaires, and they are attempting to redefine what the distinction is between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.
Here are a few examples of what I mean: “Trump Lawyer Rudy Giuliani Says White-Collar Crime Isn’t Really Crime as He Defends Paul Manafort”
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-lawyer-rudy-giuliani-manafort-crime-1089109
“Betsy DeVos Is Giving Alleged Rapists Special Rights”
https://nwlc.org/blog/betsy-devos-is-giving-alleged-rapists-special-rights/
“It’s True: Trump is Lying More, And He’s Doing it on Purpose”
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-trumps-washington/trumps-escalating-war-on-the-truth-is-on-purpose
Trump Defends White-Nationalist Protesters: ‘Some Very Fine People on Both Sides’
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/trump-defends-white-nationalist-protesters-some-very-fine-people-on-both-sides/537012/
Reblogged this on Crazy Normal – the Classroom Exposé and commented:
The Alt-Right is waging a war against what words mean like what “moral” means. They want to normalize white collar crime, racism, and rape as morally acceptable.
I half-understand why Pondiscio has jumped on the choice bandwagon. Public schools suffer from sclerotic groupthink. A dogma, promulgated by the schools of education, seems to have an iron grip on them. Few, if any, school leaders seem to have the courage or even the will to deviate. If a charter chain popped up that flouted the orthodoxy –e.g. Constructivism –I’d be tempted to support it. If it allowed unions and offered tenure, I might join it to teach there. I definitely prefer public schools, but the lack of intellectual diversity among them is a serious problem, especially when the orthodoxy they hew to is so deeply flawed. Choice is one way to break this orthodoxy. Abolishing the high-stakes tests (and maybe even the standards) would give principals more liberty, but given the mental shackles I see, I doubt many would use this liberty to advantage.
It’s hilarious (but not in a funny way) that you think constructivism is “orthodoxy”. I wish!
See NGSS, the nation’s science curriculum.
By definition, if it is “the nation’s science curriculum”, it’s not constructivist. Constructivism is the opposite of “standards”.
BTW, you do realize that most kids hardly get science these days, right? What do you have to say about reading and math standards? If you can pretend that that those are constructivist, I’ll recommend a good chiropractor to get you out of the pretzel you’ve bent yourself into.
More Constructivism: the new history frameworks that all CA teachers are supposed to be following. Don’t tell kids about history; have them “grapple with texts” and discover their own hazy knowledge.
I was the chief writer of the CA history-social science framework adopted in 1988 and in place for many years after. It was chockfull of knowledge.
Diane,
I love the CA standards.
I hate the new frameworks. I view them as an attempt by the Constructivists to undermine the standards.
You’re right, ponderosa, it’s much better to spoon feed kids selected bits of knowledge that mean nothing to them and just tell them to accept and believe it. It’s a terrible sin to help kids understand how we know what we know by seeking multiple sources and looking at evidence and deciding what’s was most likely true. Instead we should have them read textbooks full of how the “carpetbaggers” forced Reconstruction on the noble Southern gentleman and destroyed the “Southern way of life”.
BTW, I realize anecdote is not the singular of data, but a brief story. I’ve sent both my younger kids to progressive school since kindergarten where they’ve been immersed in constructivism (the real kind, not your made-up strawman). For third grade, however, my youngest decided to go to public school, where she joined her peers who have been indoctrinated in what you seem to think is “constructivism”, otherwise known as the “standards based education”. Her teacher was amazed at how much background knowledge she possessed compared to her peers. Pretty funky that a kid who had known nothing but construcitivism somehow had all that knowledge, eh? Maybe it was because she was self-motivated to learn and discover on her own.
“Spoon feed” is one of the pejoratives deployed by the anti-knowledge crowd to discredit transmission of knowledge. All telling becomes spoon feeding, just like all restating becomes regurgitating. It’s interesting how the education schools’ information warfare against traditional education has permeated the whole culture so that everyone reflexively uses it.
Once again, you insinuate that I advocate textbooks, despite telling you in the past that I dislike textbooks.
Nowhere did I equate the crappy “standards based” literacy instruction that dominates most public elementary schools with Constructivism. That is a separate sort of evil. I labeled NGSS and the CA history frameworks as Constructivist. Common Core math emits a whiff of constructivism, but I don’t know the curriculum well enough to say for certain.
Constructivism /Discovery Learning form the core pedagogy of the K to 12 Next Generation Science Standards. Instead of content knowledge, strong working vocabulary, and science lab skills, these “teaching” methods produce frustration, confusion, boredom, misinformation, and misunderstanding. Marginal students turn constructivist science classrooms into poorly run day care centers – and the best, most serious students really don’t want to have to “construct” knowledge that can much more efficiently be imparted by direct, interesting, and meaningful teacher lead lectures, demonstrations, presentations, discussions, and lab activities. Discovery learning is extraordinarily slow and remarkably inefficient. Claims of “one inch wide and a mile deep” are not only unattainable but not even desirable.The central philosophy of Constructivism is unsupported (and debunked) by brain science or cognitive learning theory; read Danial Willingham’s book, “Why Don’t Students Like School” for elucidation. Truth be told, students appreciate knowledgeable and interesting teachers who use direct, yet creative instruction – they do not want “guides on the side” or “educational facilitators”.
Two thumbs up!! Any government operation, has the same problem.
Dr. Ravitch = I teach a class on philosophy of curriculum. We have discussed often the idea of common standards, testing, etc. So last night when class was beginning at 5:10, I changed my plans for the class and had them watch your section. At least one class member commented how she appreciated the way that you often shared other resources or research connected to your comments, while others did not always do this. As for Dean Long supporting testing and you’re disagreeing with it, I am not sure I’d agree with this idea. I think that Dean Long, for the most part, was a voice in the middle. I believe that she would agree with you that testing does not need to be done as often (even you noted that testing should be done, but for diagnostic purposes, and not for teacher evaluation).
Maybe I was wrong, but I thought Dean Long defended the NCLB annual testing because it forced schools to show the number of students who were failing. My sense is that the value of this practice has long since faded and that we can get the useful information we need from NAEP testing. As I said, there is no high performing nation in the world that tests every student every year. I don’t know any other nation that does, although there may be one. We are still inhaling the fumes of the “Texas Miracle” that wasn’t.
It is now obvious to anyone who sees the test reports from state testing that they come too late to be useful and they contain nothing of diagnostic value since teachers are not allowed to know how the student did on any given question. Just scores and rankings.
What I heard was a claim that before standardized testing, minority students were ignored. I have heard this claim before from proponents of annual testing. I have not found this to be true in my work with minority students, but my perspective is limited to one small school district.
Dr. Long also made a good point in her session about all choice is not equal. Unfortunately, there was not enough time to expand on the topic. We know that a BASIS charter is not equal to some cheap cyber charter, but there was no further discussion on the comment due to a time crunch.
I agree, retired teacher.
I taught in a public school district in Southern California (1975-2005) that was majority-minority. White students made up less than 10 percent of the total and that district and its schools did NOT ignore the majority of minorities that we taught.
I don’t want to spend the rest of the day listing everything that district, its teachers and administrators did, right or wrong, to teach and reach as many of our students as possibles.
Of course, it helps when the parents and children cooperate, ask questions, finish the work, classwork and homework, and read a lot.
But poverty creates a burden for too many families to overcome to take advantage of all the classes and programs most public schools offer in areas with high ratios of child poverty and this is a challenge everywhere in the world where children live in poverty, not just the U.S.
BASIS and ECOT are both choices, and they are different. BASIS is a highly selective, elite experience that accepts all students and winnows out those who can’t take and pass 10-11 AP exams. ECOT took everyone, had high dropout rates, low test scores, and inflated enrollment figures.
School choice a moral choice? Nonsense. School choice — at public expense — is immoral. It means that government forces all taxpayers to support private institutions the vast majority of which are sectarian indoctrination centers. Madison and Jefferson and Franklin explained all this over two centuries ago.
Is it moral to fragment the student population along religious, ideological, SES, ethnic and other lines? And to drive up education costs (just think of the fleets of big yellow school buses needed) while cutting per student spending? And to remove publicly paid for schools from public control?
The people that make these blanket statements have not taken a serious look at all the negative impact of choice. They want to believe “choice” is some moral high ground like civil rights, which we know is a lie. As I just heard Dr. Zhao say in his video, choice limits, constricts, selects and ranks. It does not provide more opportunity.
The choices are equal to JUNK FOOD.
I was really struck by how ed reformers always make this odd assumption that public schools will just continue to exist as a kind of safety net. That’s always in the background with “choice” proponents- this system they denigrate will always just be there, standing ready to take the children who won’t be in “choice” schools. They seem to assume it will always remain the same, even as they fragment and divert more and more funding and public policy attention away from it.
It isn’t a given that public schools will survive ed reform. They didn’t appear unbidden from the soil. They were built. They were supported. They had advocates.
To just throw that system away and assume everything will even out in the end with some cobbled-together voucher/contractor replacement seems crazily reckless to me- tragically reckless- something we will almost surely regret.
I’ll never forget the Michigan town where the public schools disappeared. They privatized a whole system and the locals were caught up in the chaos and it wasn’t until the dust settled that people there realized they no longer had a public school system. They had a series of contractors who came and went according to whether they felt like sticking around. That could be the whole country.
They take public schools for granted. All the choice schemes rely on this unfashionable and much-maligned “safety net” system, and that is never acknowleged in ed reform, but it’s true.
You couldn’t have Success Academy if you didn’t have NYC public schools. They can’t have their voucher Catholic school for 3% of students without a public system for 97%.
They NEED public schools way more than we in the public system need charter or private schools. The choice schools can’t exist without the safety net.
Chiara,
New Orleans threw away the safety net. It is an all-charter district. It is also a highly stratified district, with selective schools that have the most affluent and whitest kids. 40% of the charters are rated as D or F by the state. Those schools are almost entirely African American. The black kids have choice among failing schools, unless they can test into one of the best charters. There is one choice that is not available: a neighborhood public school.
The “safety net”: assumption ITSELF devalues public schools.
The assumption always is parents would “flee” public schools and head to the nearest private academy if given a public subsidy- the “public schools will always exist” line is a throw-away at the end.
They start with an anti-public school bias and everything flows from it.
I want to have people in government who ACTUALLY VALUE public schools. I want the same kind of passion charter and voucher proponents in government have for the schools they promote.
I think public school families deserve real advocates, not people who see public schools as a disfavored necessity that (sadly) must exist to take those who can’t attend choice schools.
This is the link to the whole Washington Post program. You can find the whole session with Diane here.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/post-live-november-2018-education/?utm_term=.555542716a6f
I am waiting for the ed reformer who offers something of positive value to PUBLIC schools.
I still can’t believe there’s this huge, well funded “education” movement that somehow came into being and has operated for 20 years and offers NOTHING of positive value to 90% of schools.
That is extraordinary and unless I miss my guess that MIGHT be why they are having so much trouble selling it to the public- because it is either actively harmful or completely irrelevant to the vast majority of people, who attended or attend public schools.
I watched Illinois ed reformers debate vouchers. If you landed here from Mars and were listening to that debate you would assume 97% of Illinois students attend private schools.
Except that isn’t true. 97% of the students in that state were utterly ignored by the adults who supposedly represent them. Their schools were ignored.
Let me know when an ed reformer offers something, ANYTHING, to public school families. I look forward to seeing it. Hasn’t happened yet but hope springs eternal.
I have to say too, I think the voucher proponents claim that they want parents to pick private schools is more of a slogan than a reality.
Vouchers are a private school SUBSIDY. We all know they don’t allow enrollment in any private school, because they don’t cover the cost of tuition in many private schools.
The Michigan voucher that was floated was worth 5k. That won’t cover a single private school within 100 miles of where I live. If they really mean it when they say they want parents to “choose” they’ll have to start handing out 40k vouchers, and that ain’t happening.
So let’s just be honest on how much “choice” low income students are getting. They’re getting low income private schools. There won’t be any vouchers to the Georgetown Prep’s of this world. That “choice” won’t be available.
The reason so many low cost (and questionable) private schools have sprung up in Florida is because the vouchers are low value.
Those schools wouldn’t exist without vouchers, because private school parents would never choose them.
“He snidely said that both he and I had sent our children to private schools, so why shouldn’t poor families have the same choices?”
So does Pondiscio think that the poor should have the same choices as the rich in all matters, subsidized by the government? If a poor person can’t afford to eat at a steakhouse, do they deserve a voucher to be able to afford it? If a poor person can’t afford a mansion, should the government subsidize their choice of better housing? If a poor person can’t afford a car, should the government buy them their choice of luxury vehicle? I mean, food, housing and transportation are pretty much equal to education in terms of importance, so why should the government finance an expansive (and expensive) array of choices for education but not food, housing and transportation?
And, further to the point, even within education, does Pondiscio think that the poor should have all the same choices as the rich? I’m guessing his kids attended a private school that cost somewhat north of the typical $5,000 voucher allowance. So should the voucher allowance be unlimited so that poor people too can send their kids to Sidwell or Exeter?
Many years ago, Jonathan Kozol wrote a blistering critique of vouchers and said if advocates were willing to raise the value of a voucher to pay for elite private schools, he would listen. So far, no takers.
I love Jonathan Kozol. He’s always walked the walk, not just talked the talk.
good questions.
It is unfair that the rich can live in penthouses on Fifth Avenue while the poor live in cramped apartments far from Fifth (unless they are in Harlem).
There are certain basics in life that should be equal: access to medical care; access to decent housing; access to good education; access to food security. If left to the free market, access will be unequal. If publicly controlled, the government has an obligation to make them equal.
“while the poor live in cramped apartments far from Fifth”
Alas, not just the poor in this town. Far from it.
Manhattan has the most unequal housing of probably any place in the US, with the possible exception of San Francisco.
No one has suggested housing vouchers so that the poor have “the same choices” as the rich. David Koch lives in an elegant apartment building on Fifth Avenue. He doesn’t want voucher tenants in his building
I think most would agree with the list of basics here, but public control is not necessary, or even desirable for some things on the list, in order to ensure access. No one, I think, would argue that public control of food production has ever been anything but a disaster or that publicly run housing projects that our government constructed in the past turned out to be good for the residents.
I did not suggest public control of food supply. I did suggest public education, public health insurance, public highways, public transit, public parks. What would you subtract from that list? People don’t have to take public transit, they can own their own cars, but the government doesn’t pay for everyone to buy a car.
“No one, I think, would argue that public control of food production has ever been anything but a disaster….”
Huh, funny you should mention that. I’m currently reading AND FORGIVE THEM THEIR DEBTS by Michael Hudson (strongly recommended, BTW). It appears that throughout most of history food production was essentially public. The citizenry lived on lands owned by the chieftain or king or other local ruler and they held leasehold title in perpetuity in exchange for taxes (paid from their food crops), military service and corvee duties. Things worked pretty well because it was in the ruler’s best interest to maintain a free, self-supporting citizenry that would defend the city and provide service to the city/state. At times when crop failed or other problems arose, the ruler would forgive debts such as taxes in order to avoid bond slavery to creditors. In addition, rulers would often forgive debts in the first year of their rule or at other important times. So food production was essentially public, controlled by the free citizens themselves. (Yes, there were slaves, predominantly the conquest of wars.)
But the problems came with the rise of private debt holders who were motivated to use that compounded debt as a way to take free citizens into debt slavery and thereby control production themselves, leaving citizens owned body and soul and with no time for their own needs or those of the state. These privatizers basically managed to reduce civilizations back to widespread serfdom with huge inequality. Former citizens became mere workers on what used to be their own land with no motivation to work hard for excess, let alone defend the land against invaders, which is how civilizations routinely fell to the barbarians.
The idea that creditors should be supreme over debtors is a fairly modern interpretation and, in fact, exactly the opposite of what the Bible is actually saying. There is nothing sacred about requiring debtors to pay debts they cannot pay. That is simply a route to slavery and inequality. The sacred duty is to restore the balance of civilization by returning land and freedom to the people (the public) through forgiveness of debts.
Dr. Ravitch,
Do you really mean to have public health insurance on your list or did you mean public health provision? The former would mean that the government pays private health care providers on behalf of it’s citizens, while the latter would mean that the health care providers all work for the government. Also, when you talk about education, I assume that you do not mean post secondary education where the government commonly provides vouchers that students can use to purchase education from private providers like Columbia or Wellesley. Is that correct?
Dienne77,
For most of human history almost everyone spent almost all their time trying to grow enough food to survive. For most of human history we were not especially good at it: life expectancy at birth was around 30 and if you were lucky enough to make it to 30 you would almost certainly be dead by 40. A short primer about long economic growth and welfare in the period where “things worked pretty well” can be found here: https://ourworldindata.org/economic-growth
As long as we are recommending books, I would recommend Mao’s Great Famine by Frank Dikotter as a good look into the impact of collectivization in agriculture.
Finally, the reason to give creditors extensive rights to collect debts is to get creditors to give us loans in the first place. Do you imagine that there would be mortgages if the government would absolve someone from paying the debt without penalty when that person lost their job? Would you be willing to buy a bond to fund the construction of the school knowing that if the school board decided that paying you back was too burdensome to the district, they would simply not keep their promise to return your money to you?
Teaching Economist,
I am neither a Communist nor a socialist. I visited the Soviet Union and China when they were still completely devoted to collectivism. I am no fan of state control.
However, I do believe it is a state responsibility to ensure that no one dies because they can’t afford medicine or surgery. A democratic society must also be a decent society, where everyone has medical care, adequate housing, good schools, and access to jobs that pay enough to support a good standard of living.
It is obvious that capitalist controlled democracy is a total failure vs socialist democracies.
For instance, the United States is a capitalist controlled democracy and when we compare America to socialist democracies, capitalism fails except for the wealthiest one percent.
There is also no comparison between pure socialism, communism and a socialist democracy. In a socialist democracy, there are still private sector factories and businesses and the state does not compete with them by owning factories and businesses.
A socialist democracy taxes the wealthiest individuals to fund social safety nets so there is no one starving, no one without medical care and no one without adequate shelter and the rich still have enough to live a more lavish lifestyle.
A socialist democracy has a balance between capitalistic and social safety net programs.
“5 Benefits of a Social Democracy”
We Americans have been deceived by the notion that individual desires preempt the needs of society; by the Ayn-Rand/Reagan/Thatcher aversion to government regulation; by the distorted image of ‘freedom’ as winner-take-all capitalism; by the assurance that the benefits of greed will spread downwards to everyone.” …
Pure, greed-based, run-away capitalism like we have in the United States is a terminal cancer for everyone but the wealthiest 0.1 percent.
The Super-Rich Wouldn’t Make Our Decisions for Us …
2.We Wouldn’t Spend So Much Money on Security for Rich People …
We Wouldn’t Give All the Credit for a Tech Product to One Person …
Public Sentiment Would Prevail Over the Demands of Lobbyists …
Our Jobs Wouldn’t Be Held Hostage in Tax Havens …
“But our greedy super-capitalist system allows much of society to be deprived of opportunities to work.
“A Social Democracy
“Social-oriented economic systems are not incompatible with small business entrepreneurship. In a social democracy, similar to those in Scandinavian countries, with elements of both capitalism and socialism intact, the worst abuses of a winner-take-all corporate-ruled system are avoided. The result is a land of opportunity. As Harvey J. Kaye put it, with supporting references to Thomas Paine, FDR, Martin Luther King, and Bernie Sanders, “Social democracy is 100 percent American.”
https://inequality.org/research/5-advantages-social-democracy/
Does someone like Besty DeVos really need 10 yachts, two helicopters,, a yacht scheduler and her lavish lifestyle? Does she really need more than one mansion?
https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/8/6/17654434/betsy-devos-yacht-mcmansion-hell
The Walton Family collectively has $175 billion. Jeff Bezos alone is worth $150 billion. Bill Gates: $60 Billion. There is a long list of billionaires who have not been taxed enough.
I want the tax rates of the Eisenhower administration.
“During the eight years of the Eisenhower presidency, from 1953 to 1961, the top marginal rate was 91 percent. (It was 92 percent the year he came into office.)
“What does it mean, though?
“For the duration of Eisenhower’s presidency, that rate affected individuals making $200,000 or more per year or couples making $400,000 and above per year.
“In 2015 dollars, that’s roughly $1.7 million for an individual and $3.4 million for a couple.”
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/nov/15/bernie-s/income-tax-rates-were-90-percent-under-eisenhower-/
That means before the 90-percent tax rate kicked in, the rich guy had to earn $1.7 million and a couple $3.4 million.
Wow, I’d love to earn enough to pay that 90-tax rate AFTER I earned the $1.7 million.
$1.7 million annually is a lot more than the average middle class income in this country.
“Pew Research says the middle class runs from $42,000 to $125,000 (before tax). They define middle as a household of three with an income that falls between two-thirds and double the median income.”
“That means before the 90-percent tax rate kicked in, the rich guy had to earn $1.7 million and a couple $3.4 million.
Wow, I’d love to earn enough to pay that 90-tax rate AFTER I earned the $1.7 million.”
Lloyd, as a univ full prof, my lifetime pretax income, after 40 years on the job at retirement, will be around $1.7 million. If somebody makes a billion in a year, then that person makes $1.7 million between a late breakfast and lunch.
“I want the tax rates of the Eisenhower administration.”
And that’s exactly what Piketty (economist!) says we need to implement to stop the divergence between the 1% and the 99%.
“As long as we are recommending books, I would recommend Mao’s Great Famine by Frank Dikotter as a good look into the impact of collectivization in agriculture.”
Are we still under the spell of McCarthy thinking that we only have two choices: free market or communism as conducted by monsters of history?
Why not go with the times, and recommend a book that compares the miserable conditions in Scandinavian countries with those in the US?
“As long as we are recommending books, I would recommend Mao’s Great Famine by Frank Dikotter as a good look into the impact of collectivization in agriculture.”
I would not recommend this book to anyone who wants the truth.
Frank Dikotter was a bald faced liar taking advantage of America’s hate and fear of everything Communist to make money and a reputation for himself. He was the worse kind of author journalist spewing FAKE news.
In his book, he says because the Chinese lied so much he doubled the number of deaths caused by the famine so he said to arrive at the truth, he doubled the biggest number he could find.
He also doesn’t tell his readers where everyone came up with the number of deaths that happened?
After Mao died and Deng Xiaoping opened China to the world, the Chinese Communist Party made public the only records that existed and invited reputable scholars from around the world to discover how many people died from that famine. Those public records listed the births and deaths in each village and town in the few provinces hit hardest by the drought and famine that followed, and they were kept in each village and town. That was a lot of records to collect. Then they had to determine the average deaths and births before the famine to come up with how many more died during the famine.
After all those numbers were crunched the CPU claimed only 3.5 million died because of the famine. But the consensus of reputable scholars from around the world that had access to that printed info was 20 million died.
Before Dikotter wrote his book, another muckraker in the U.S. had taken that 20 million and added 10 million more to the death count and that author along with Dikotter never had access to the records made available to the reputable scholars invited to see them.
And, no one mentioned the fact that Imperial records in China going back more than 2,000 years record that China suffered from droughts and famine every year and Chinese people died from those famines every year for two thousand years. That’s why China is known as the land of famines.
For instance, there was the Northern Chinese Famine of 1876-79 where 13 million people are estimated to have died in that famine.
But if your confirmation bias wants support to hate commies, you always quote Dikotter’s claim that 60 million died and ignore history and what reputable scholars said.
Henry Kissinger is quoted saying he excepted the number of deaths from Mao’s Great Famine at 20-million, the number the reputable scholars agreed to after they had access to the records the CCP provided.
Dr. Ravitch,
I hardly think that you being in favor of either single payer health care or single provider health care would identify you as a communist. Because you are in favor of single provider education and against single payer education that I asked if you could clarify your position on health care.
By the way, the capital gains tax rate of the Eisenhower era in the United States was about 25% (there is a small blip above 25% from 1951 to 1954). This is certainly higher than the 20% rate currently applies, but it would have only had a impact on the wealth of people like the Waltons, Bezos, and Gates. The high income tax rates would have had virtually no impact on those people’s wealth
because it has come almost entirely through capital gains.
The history of the capital gains tax rate can be found here: https://www.fool.com/retirement/2017/02/11/a-95-year-history-of-maximum-capital-gains-tax-rat.aspx
I like the 90% marginal tax rates of the Eisenhower era.
I would also support a much higher capital gains rate than at present.
Yes, I would be directly affected, and I still want higher taxes.
I think something is terribly wrong with a society that has billionaires and widespread poverty.
Lloyd,
I am happy to go with the 20 million figure for the number of deaths caused by the Great Leap Forward in China. Still not a great advertisement for centrally controlled agriculture.
Next, of course, we could move on to central control of agriculture in the former Soviet Union, especially the Holodomor in 1932-33.
Rather than going through each example of failure and starvation, perhaps it would be useful if you might come up with some examples of success.
I recommend “The Black Book of Communism,” an excellent history by two French historians.
Examples of success … in China?
Well, look at what China has done since Mao died. When Mao died, China had no middle class or wealthy class, few roads, railroads, airports, and most of the country didn’t have electricity. In fact, most of China outside of the major cities was still a medieval culture. You couldn’t hop in a car and cross China to any location in a few days because the roads didn’t exist and the railroads and airports didn’t either.
Today, China has more damns than any other country, more high speed rail than the world combined, highways lace the country, hundreds of modern airports, electricity is being delivered to most of the country except rural areas that are really remote. There are more Chinese in China’s middle class than the population of the US and the CCP wants to double that number. And more Chinese travel the world as tourists than any country on the planet — more than 110 million annually.
China also has more billionaires than any country in the world including the US.
And China has promised to cut back on carbon pollution and now leads the world in solar cell production and has sought advice from Green Peace on how to clean up their environment. And even though China still uses coal to generate electric power, they are replacing all the old plants with modern ones that don’t pollute as much.
And that isn’t all China has done to improve the quality of life in China. When Mao took over China, the average lifespan was 35. Today it is in the 70s.
China still has a lot of problems but they are not promising to do things to fix those problems, they are actually doing them even if they do make some mistakes along the way.
Lloyd,
I was hoping that you could find examples of success in having a the state be a single producer of agriculture goods. There are a large number of examples, like China, where substituting private production of agricultural goods has increased total food availability.
Before the US started to sell Chinese farmers on chemical fertilizers and insecticides that poisons their top soil and food, China produced more healthy food per acre than any country on the planet and had been doing that for about 2,500 years.
But 10 percent of China’s land is arable for food production.
However, when it comes to food crops, China does more with less as it has for about 2,500 years:
“Agriculture is a vital industry in China, employing over 300 million farmers.[1] China ranks first in worldwide farm output, primarily producing rice, wheat, potatoes, tomato, sorghum, peanuts, tea, millet, barley, cotton, oilseed and soybeans.” …
“During the Spring and Autumn period (722–481 BC), two revolutionary improvements in farming technology took place. One was the use of cast iron tools and beasts of burden to pull plows, and the other was the large-scale harnessing of rivers and development of water conservation projects. The engineer Sunshu Ao of the 6th century BC and Ximen Bao of the 5th century BC are two of the oldest hydraulic engineers from China, and their works were focused upon improving irrigation systems.[8] These developments were widely spread during the ensuing Warring States period (403–221 BC), culminating in the enormous Du Jiang Yan Irrigation System engineered by Li Bing by 256 BC for the State of Qin in ancient Sichuan.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_China
“China is grappling with a daunting conundrum: how to feed nearly one-fifth of the world’s population with less than one-tenth of its farmland, while adapting to changing tastes. Thirty years ago about a quarter of the country’s people lived in cities, but by 2016, 57 percent of the population was urban, living in a China that is wealthier and more technologically advanced, with a diet that increasingly resembles that of the West. The Chinese eat nearly three times as much meat as in 1990. Consumption of milk and dairy quadrupled from 1995 to 2010 among urban residents and nearly sextupled among rural ones. And China now buys far more processed foods, increasing about two-thirds from 2008 to 2016.”
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2018/02/feeding-china-growing-appetite-food-industry-agriculture/
The following link will take you to a chart that shows the United States, as a country, has the most arable land in the world. China is ranked #4 but it has 71.05 million less hactares to grow food on while having 1.4 billion people to feed. The US has almost 326 million people to feed.
https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Agriculture/Arable-land/Hectares
China has always been ahead of the rest of the world when it comes to growing food crops, but now they have partnered with Denmark in using greenhouses and other methods to increase the yields of food crops.
1.2.1 Main findings from the 1
st workshop.
Similarities in trends in agricultural development
–
In both China and Denmark organic vegetable
farmers are under economic pressure to intensify production, aiming at higher yields and larger
profitability. This development takes two directions: the first pathway is farm enlargement and
product specialization. In China, this is especially seen in outdoor vegetable farms in semi-urban
areas, supplying the urban markets. In Denmark it is a general trend in organic vegetable farms. The
second pathway is production moving from field production to protected cultivation in tunnels or in
greenhouses, e.g. for strawberries, aiming at higher prices for extra quality (early products) and
more secure yields. Protected production is already widespread in both the conventional and organic
production in some areas in China, and is an emerging trend in both conventional and organic
production in Denmark. In conventional agriculture, both of the described intensification pathways
have traditionally been linked with increased demand for inputs, primarily pesticides, because of
emerging problems with pests and diseases.
Therefore there is a need, wit
hin the organic sector, to
find alternative ways to intensify and improve systems by designing solutions on systems level,
which are based on knowledge and human organization
(’eco -functional intensification’
) and which
are effective, applicable and cost
-e fficient in the relevant contexts.”
Click to access 22350.pdf
Adding the original item to the list, should all kids have government-subsidized access to a $60,000 per year education from K-12?
Well, I can remember quite a few progressives decrying the Trump administration’s effort to change food stamps from a consumer choice program to a box of food. There are many problems with school choice but please don’t pretend that choice has no value as part of a progressive platform. There are many good reasons to think that people, including those at are low income, desire and can manage some agency in their lives.
Choice as a concept sounds good, sure, but because charter schools harm the public schools that serve most low-income children and harm the children in them, progressives and moral people of all political stripes and all economic levels shouldn’t support them. Sure, people “desire and can manage some agency in their lives,” but if it hurts others less fortunate than they are?
No one with even a basic understanding of economics should be using a food stamps analogy.
A box of food costs the same no matter who purchases it. The store makes the same profit whether a rich person buys the box or a poor person using food stamps purchases the box. So there is no incentive for the people OFFERING the product — i.e. the charter CEOs — to care who their customer is. That’s why there is no progressive demand to change food stamps to a box of food.
But in education — as in healthcare — “choice” is severely limited by who is willing to provide the service you want to buy. If you are a “profitable” customer, you can “choose”, and if you are very sick or you have other high needs, good luck finding someone to provide the service for the very same price that they will provide the healthy customer who costs significantly less.
And if you are so ignorant to believe that every single child costs the very same to educate — just like they cost the same to provide a box of food for — then you have no business being in education.
“There are many good reasons to think that people, including those at are low income, desire and can manage some agency in their lives.”
Who said, having choices is bad? Only bad choices are bad. Any choice which harms others is a bad choice.
Cynically charter schools seek to educate, using the WEB DeBois term, the “talented tenth” leaving the Student with Disabilities, English language learners and lower achievers to public schools, a reiteration of segregation academies we find in the deep South
Huh. Have you ever talked with a low income person of color who had enrolled their child in a charter school? You may get get a different opinion. Charter schools and choice have problems but to equate the MANY families who make a choice (inc many non white disadvantaged families) w/ segregation academies is ridiculous.
The low income persons of color currently enrolled or those who were kicked out of charter schools?
The low income parents of color in New Orleans where 40% of the charters are rated D or F and completely segregated?
Yes! Low-income people of color are just as likely as anyone to be pleased that their children are part of the “talented tenth.” Almost everyone involved with charter schools believes that their selectivity is part of the design — a feature, not a bug — and almost no one understands that the selectivity is covert, generally illegal and does harm to public schools that serve those who aren’t selected — and the children in those schools.
Another Pondiscio inferno.
Ms Ravitch wrote…
“If you are the parent of a child with special needs, the odds are high that he/she will not be accepted by any charter school unless the disability is very mild and remediable”
Guess many of you have never heard of the myriad of charter autism schools that are available around the nation.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=charter+schools+for+autusim
It’s true that there are specialty charter schools (a lot I’m not sure, but some) designed to serve some (selected) students with disabilities. But overall, charter schools accept far fewer students with disabilities, are extremely selective about those (if any) they do accept and are free to kick any students out who tax their resources too much — and they do.So I refute that bogus (and snide “guess you never heard…”) refutation.
So let’s stop painting as evil ALL charters with a broad brush and maybe start advocating for more choice specialty schools to support students with disabilities whether charter or district.
I’ll get back to you after dinner. Rushing out now.
I check with official sources, not rightwing publications.
Cynthia,
I don’t think test score comparisons are the best way to compare schools, but I know you think they are sacrosanct. For starters, please read Eve Ewing’s wonderful book “Ghosts in the Schoolyard.”
But let’s get to your claim that choice has been wonderful for Detroit and Milwaukee.
I assume you are aware that Detroit, where half the kids are in charter schools, is the absolute lowest performing school on the NAEP.
I assume you are aware that Milwaukee, which has charters and vouchers, is only slightly ahead of Detroit, in the bottom of the NAEP scoring range.
Here is the latest on test scores in Milwaukee (not from one of your rightwing sources):
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/education/2018/10/02/wisconsin-standardized-tests-takeaways-2018-scores/1486278002/
Notable improvement in the voucher schools in Milwaukee:
The number of public-school students proficient in math increased to 42.1 percent, up almost a full percentage point from two years ago.
Voucher-school students made an even bigger jump, increasing by almost three percentage points to 16.7 percent proficiency in math.
Wow! Students in voucher schools raised their math proficiency to 16.7%. What a shame they are not in public schools, where math proficiency was 42.1%.
Charters and vouchers lead to increased segregation, and the most segregated schools are the lowest performing: https://www.wisconsingazette.com/news/education/charter-school-movement-has-led-to-increased-segregation-in-milwaukee/article_1ea6eac2-d952-11e7-b226-477962058477.html
As for Detroit, the answers to all your questions can be found in this article that appeared in the New York Times Magazine: Michigan Gambled on Charter Schools, Its Children Lost:
Remember, your choice friends claim that competition will make public schools better. So it does not good to pick out a high-performing school that probably cherrypicks its students. If it gets higher scores than public schools, it is very likely gaming the system.
If choice were the right answer, Detroit, Milwaukee and D.C. should be at the top of NAEP by now. They are not.
Why don’t you start advocating for more public funding for public schools to make up for the money you subtract to create little boutique charters for the few?
Cynthia Weiss,
“So let’s stop” the richest O.1%, who are investors in for-profit schools-in-a-box, from corrupting the political system to get the training system that they want for the poor and middle class (but, don’t pay for).
Ms Ravitch,
First is it really necessary to label sources as right-wing? Can’t we discuss facts not have ad-hominin attacks? Where the facts in those links I sent incorrect in showing that charter\voucher outperformed their peers in 2017 and 2018?
Second, I never said “choice has been wonderful” for anyone.
Finally, where are the NAEP scores showing Detroit District versus Detroit Charter? Where are the NAEP scores showing MPS versus Milwaukee Charter\Voucher? Show us these scores over time. Let’s see apples to apples comparisons.
Half of Detroit students are in charters. Detroit is the lowest performing urban district tested by NAEP. Did you read the article that was published in the New York Times Magazine titled, “Michigan Gambled on Charter Schools. It’s Children Lost”? The NY Times has scrupulous fact checkers.
Is there anyone alive who thinks that charters saved Detroit?
Milwaukee is slightly higher on NAEP than Detroit. No miracle there either.
Here are the urban district scores. https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/profiles/districtprofile?chort=1&sub=MAT&sj=XQ&sfj=NL&st=MN&year=2017R3
Since choice schools choose their students and public schools take everyone, any comparison between choice schools and public schools are NEVER apples to apples. Public schools take the kids the choice schools don’t want.
Before you boast about the wonders of charter schools in Milwaukee, read this article by Alan Borsuk, a journalist who has been writing about education in the city for many years. He is not a partisan. https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/education/2018/01/26/borsuk-rising-tide-concerns-mps-greater-than-debate-one-charter-school/1070518001/
The school board renewed a charter school that had worse results than 99 other schools.
Borsuk wrote:
“How poor are the Daniels results? A small slice of the answer: In last spring’s state tests, 3% of the third through eighth-grade students were rated as proficient and 74% were at the “below basic” level. In math, 7% were proficient and 77% below basic. Overall, many of the goals set by MPS for the Daniels schools were not being met, an administrative team found. There were some signs of improvement over last year, and some indicators going the other way.
“But Daniels, a 210-student charter school run by leaders of the Holy Redeemer Church of God in Christ at N. 35th St. and W. Hampton Ave., scored well on the state report card, where schools get points for such things as year to year improvement in student performance. The school ended up in the “meets expectations” category and its numerical score in that rating is where it out-rated those 99 other schools.”
That’s sad. Nothing to boast about.
So I’m confused…Are test scores simply a measure of family disadvantage? Or do they measure school quality?
Standardized test scores do not measure school quality.
They accurately measure family income and education.
In California, for many years, the state accountability system was called the API, officially Academic Performance Index (“what’s your school’s API?”. The savvy called it the Affluent Parent Index.
The charter autism schools in my state are awful. Few kids remain in them, and these schools have a nasty habit of firing huge numbers of teachers every couple of years, so there is no stability, which is huge problem for any student, particularly those with autism.
That is sad to hear. In Arizona, the Arizona Autism Charter School does the work of angels here and it keeps expanding to help serve more and more students.
In my NJ town, the district [6k pupil pop] started a first grade class specialized for autistic kids about 10 yrs ago, & have been adding grades/ classes as needed. The parents have been happy w/the program, & it has saved the district considerable money. In NJ, if a district can’t provide an appropriate ed, you can sue them for tuition reimbursement to a private facility (& people do).
Ms Ravitch wrote…
“Is there anyone alive who thinks that charters saved Detroit?
Milwaukee is slightly higher on NAEP than Detroit. No miracle there either.”
Did I or Mr Pondisco claim that charters\vouchers saved Detroit? Did I or Mr Pondisco claim that charters\vouchers are a miracle in Milwaukee?
Your original claim that you wrote above was…
“I offered the examples of Detroit and Milwaukee as school districts awash in school choice where students have not benefited”
Yet you can’t show that NAEP scores for charter students in Detroit or Milwaukee are underperforming their district peers and you reject state testing that shows these charter school students are outperforming their district peers. You say that it is not possible to compare apples to apples thus removing all goal posts.
So on what basis do you determine that “students have not benefited”? Anecdotal reports in the NY Times and Journal Sentinel?
This report from the Detroit news says charter students in Detroit have benefited…
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/columnists/nolan-finley/2017/11/01/finley-data-busts-charter-myth/107248786/
“A student who starts ninth grade in a Detroit charter school has a 68 percent greater chance of enrolling in college the fall after graduation than those in district-run public schools.”
Well, there should be a moral agenda for public education in the U.S., based on a moral principle or creed. That I would think would be, free equitable education for all.
If school choice furthers equity, so be it. All I can see is choice is a better education for a few at the expense of the many, and that’s not equity.
Choice without fair and equitable funding is immoral. Meaning, 100% funding for special ed, ELL, behavioral problem students, for the schools that educate these higher cost students.
Ms Ravitch wrote…
“He implied that it was “moral” to take money away from underfunded public schools so that a small percentage of students could choose to go to a charter school or religious school”
Not really a small percentage in some states. In Arizona 17% of students attend a charter schools and estimates of around 50% of students do not attend their zoned district school. [1]
Would you take away open enrollment because it deprives one district at the expense of another district?
[1] http://centerforstudentachievement.org/are-district-attendance-zones-obsolete/
Cynthia Weiss,
The reason that Arizona has so many charter students may be the reason that Michigan and Ohio have charter school enrollment-
(1) Charter schools have slick ads paid for by taxpayers.
(2) Virtual charter schools allow students to avoid any involvement in the education taxpayers pay for. One-fourth of Mich. students enrolled in virtual charter schools failed to complete even one class. And, Ohio’s attorney general is trying to ferret out how many ECOT students never attended. But, Dewine’s not looking too hard because the charter owner spent lavishly on the Ohio Republican Party.
Slick ads are very rare here in Arizona. Sure they happen but I have also seen district schools advertise (in movie theaters for example).
So by your own admission, 87% of students don’t attend charters. But it’s okay to pull money from those 87% to fund the 13% who do attend charters.
Hint: you’re not helping your case here.
83% (and dropping) not 87% but don’t forget that since Arizona has open enrollment so parents are not tied to their zoned district school. Around 50% of students are exercising choice in AZ not a small percentage that Ms Ravitch claimed.
For example Scottsdale Unified “steals” over 4,000 students 32 million per year from surrounding school districts. I don’t hear any squealing here about that.
I don’t hear anyone squealing about open enrollment inter-/ intra-public school districts, period. From what I’ve read about a couple of NE states that do it, it can be tricky to administer, but districts work together to ensure max family satisfaction at minimum budget disruption. There’s no point in conflating charter selection into the stats (as in yr AZ cite); it’s a horse of a different color. They do that just so they can claim 17% choice is really 50% choice [so why not go for 100%].
BTW, did you notice AZans defeated prop 305, 65%-35% last month? Even w/o that expansion, they already totted up a net unrecoverable of over $700k in fraudulent parental expenditures of ESA $.
School choice is an environmentally ignorant concept in terms of transportation. Neighborhood schools is the environmentally right answer.
I can’t believe that in fifty years of design philosophy trending towards walkable communities and decreasing commute distances, that a walkable school would be removed by the system of school choice.
Yes, let’s ban plastic bags at the store, and use two more hours of fuel to get to school.
Schools without transportation often eliminate poor students whose parents do not have a way to get their child to the charter school.
Yup. The ‘One Newark’ fiasco resulted in such situations as families w/3 kids in 3 far-flung locations – no school transport. Parents w/cars adding to pollution, & probably late to work, to boot– & still having to chew nails over kids getting home on their own through dicy nbhds. At least [unlike Chicago] they didn’t all have their nbhd schs closed– so a fair no of families still have “choice” between close-by decrepit overcrowded underfunded pubsch vs some unreachable charter the district assigned them to [probably 5th choice, wait-listed for the good-rep charters]. Swell!!
In Newark, one family with five children had them reassigned to five different schools. How to get them to school and pick them up. The neighborhood public school they previously attended was on their block.
Newark OneApp: One family, five children assigned to five different schools.
https://dianeravitch.net/2014/08/26/one-newark-assigns-five-siblings-to-five-different-schools/
Ms Ravitch wrote…
“I offered the examples of Detroit and Milwaukee as school districts awash in school choice where students have not benefited. ”
The facts when you actually compare apples to apples…
Milwaukee Choice and Charter Schools Outperform MPS on New State Report Cards
“Data from the newly released state report card reveals that more charter schools and private schools in the Milwaukee Parental Choice Program (MPCP) are meeting or exceeding expectations than Milwaukee Public Schools. More than 80% of Independent Charters, more than 75% of MPS instrumentality and non-instrumentality charters, and 68% of MPCP schools meet expectations or higher. Less than half of MPS district schools, including schools with selective enrollment, meet or exceed expectations.”
http://www.will-law.org/milwaukee-choice-charter-schools-outperform-mps-new-state-report-cards/
Detroit Charter Schools Outperform District School Peers On State Tests
“Charter school students in Detroit outperformed their peers in the city’s conventional school district in 15 of the 18 subjects on state tests given to all Michigan public school students last spring.
Students in Detroit’s charter schools also scored higher than those in 18 chronically failing Detroit schools that in recent years were under a form of state receivership called the Education Achievement Authority.”
https://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/detroit-charter-schools-outperform-district-school-peers-on-state-tests
Read Jennifer Chambers’ article in Detroit News, Nov. 15, 2018, “Michigan Charter School Closures Fire Up Education Debate”. A Mich. state legislator was quoted as saying “charter school closures have been brutal to Black families.” The article quotes the statistic, 87% of the students thrown into the unknown by the charter school churn have been Black students.
After the Flint water poisoning of predominantly poor people, a hell delivered on them by Republicans, nobody expects anything different from people like “Cynthia Weiss”, Gov. Snyder and the DeVos family.
80% of Michigan’s charters are for-profit.
Hard to think that charter students in Detroit are not benefiting despite what Ms Ravitch claims…
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/columnists/nolan-finley/2017/11/01/finley-data-busts-charter-myth/107248786/
“Working with newly released data from the Michigan Department of Education, statisticians Eric Anderson and Walter Cook of the Skillman Foundation compiled the performance of all schools in Detroit. Here’s what they found:
■Just 12.3 percent of DPSCD students in grades 3-8 earned a proficient rating on the 2017 M-Step reading test, compared to 23.6 percent of charter students. The statewide average was 47.3 percent.
■Eight percent of traditional public school students in grades 3-8 were proficient in math, compared to 13.5 percent of those attending charters. The statewide average was 37.2 percent.
■When it comes to critical third grade reading achievement, 9.8 percent of DPSCD students were proficient, compared to 21.3 percent of charter students and 46 percent of students statewide.
■High school graduation rates for the 2015-16 school year were 78.2 percent for traditional public school students, 89.9 percent for charter students and 79.7 percent statewide.
■The one area where district schools do better than charters is on the 11th grade SAT test, which is used to determine college readiness. DPSCD students scored an 890, charters scored an average 856 and statewide students, 974.
■But in actual college enrollment, just 31.3 percent of 2016 public school graduates started college the following fall, compared to 47.5 percent of charter students and 61.5 percent of all Michigan students.
That last measure is critical if you subscribe to the theory that high schools should prepare their students for college or career training. A student who starts ninth grade in a Detroit charter school has a 68 percent greater chance of enrolling in college the fall after graduation than those in district-run public schools.”
“Hard to think that charter students in Detroit are not benefiting despite what Ms Ravitch claims…”
Cynthia, there is a BIG difference between empty claims and fact based statements.
Diane Ravitch uses fact-based statements in her posts with links to the studies and facts.
The publicly funded, opaque, private sector Corporate Charter school industry are greed based businesses. They start out with unproven claims of how great they are going to be before they open for business, and then because they can’t meet those false claims as time slips by even after carefully sifting students to get those that obey the draconian rules and score high on misleading tests, they cherry-pick facts to come up with evidence that they are successful. When they don’t have enough cherry-picked facts, they lie and do all they can to cover up what is really happening.
Finland is a perfect example of what happens when publicly funded, private schools must be transparent and can’t hide any facts.
Yes, Finland publicly funds private schools but those schools have to operate in the open and follow the same rules Finland very successful public schools do.
And that’s why less than 1 percent of the schools in Finland are publicly funded private schools,because they can’t compete with the Finland’s highly successful public schools
where teachers are treated like professionals and trusted unless they can hide what they are doing and get away with lies to fool parents and elected officials.
But Finland will not let the publicly funded private schools do that.
““Hard to think that charter students in Detroit are not benefiting despite what Ms Ravitch claims…”
Cynthia, there is a BIG difference between empty claims and fact based statements.”
Exactly. No argument starts with “Hard to think” or “hard to believe”. There are many extremely hard to believe facts in science. One is that the Earth is circling around the Sun and not the other way around.
Besides, it’s secondary, if charter school students benefit from anything. What’s important is that their “benefits” are at the expense of 95% of the kids.
Like high school AP students perform better than non AP students on standardized tests. What a revelation. Of course select students or students that self select into more competitive programs will outperform their peers who don’t.
It’s the caliber of the students you are primarily measuring, who are not chosen at random out of a hat.
Charter schools are free to (and thus freely do) handpick students, reject all students they don’t want, impose admissions hurdles that automatically select for motivated, compliant students from supportive, motivated, compliant, high-functioning families, and kick out any students they don’t want. They’re not supposed to do those things in most cases, but they’re above the law, politically untouchable and thoroughly Teflonized.
Considering that reality, it’s astounding that charter schools actually aren’t more successful overall than public schools. But it’s naive, uninformed and/or dishonest to tout any claims that DO surface that charter schools are more successful, given the reality.
That’s probably true in some cities but not Detroit. The vast oversupply of schools means there are not much in the way of lotteries and cream skimming is minimal.
Detroit has not benefitted from the large supply of charter schools. It is the lowest performing urban district. It was the lowest scoring before charters and nothing has changed except that a lot of charter entrepreneurs got rich.
Comparisons of test scores between charters schools and district schools is completely invalid and no reliable or significant conclusions can be drawn about the charter treatment on scores, ever. The populations between the two groups are significantly different for all the reasons CarolineSF said; time and time again you see the same nonsense put out by the same people to make test score comparisons, and it’s bogus. Can’t be done. There are too many variables that can skew the data in favor of charters. Even if the populations were similar, research has shown that the lottery treatment itself can separate and capture those students/parents who are motivated to put themselves into a lottery. That motivation can be enough of a factor to influence a student’s test scores.
You do realize there are studies that examine only students that apply to a lottery and show that those admitted to a charter school do better than their peers? It’s akin to an experiment since unobserable factors are controlled. https://economics.mit.edu/files/6335
Excellent point.
And then there is also the point that even in cases where one can compare test scores, focussing on test scores is a fools game.
Debating nonsense never achieved anything.
“The Leaning Tower of PISA”
Rigor is de rigueur
Testing is the norm
PISA is the figure
By which they gauge reform
(and even by that, it is a failure)
Hall of Tests”
The mirrored Hall of tests
Of PISA and of NAEP
Retains eternal guests
Who never will escape
Much more where that came from
A Damthology of Deform (volumes 1and 2)
http://Damthology.blogspot.com
John says:
“You do realize there are studies that examine only students that apply to a lottery and show that those admitted to a charter school do better than their peers?”
Wrong. Those studies examine students who win charter lotteries, enroll in the charter, stay in the charter (i.e. aren’t counseled out) and compare them to all non-winners. It’s as if a drug company ran a study comparing two groups when the group using their new “miracle” drug mysteriously lost many patients — and then the drug company announced it had miraculous results and claimed that the reason so many patients dropped out and stopped taking this miracle drug was simply not important. You can bet that scientists would start asking questions. Unfortunately, the people who oversee charter schools are more like the board of a drug company — more concerned with hyping results — than they are true overseers. Imagine if the only oversight of pharmacological studies of whether drugs work was done by the Drug Manufacturers’ Public Relations firm. You’d get the same kind of hyped ridiculously designed studies that ignore the elephant in the room and Medicare would be forced to pay for expensive drugs that are no different than generic brands because that flawed study insisted they were superior.
^^In other words, there have been no studies of attrition rates of charters getting miraculous results comparing them to attrition rates of charters getting mediocre results. And that is intentional. Because people would start asking why top performing charters would not have the very lowest attrition rates when compared to other charters. Instead, charters say “compare our attrition rates only to those failing public schools.” It’s like a drug company promoting their faux miracle drug insisting that the attrition rates of the patients in their study should not be closely examined as long as they are lower than the attrition rate for another study where the drug didn’t work at all.
What has happened that the Dean of the Harvard Graduate School of Education is in favor of standardized testing and school choice?
(I know…$$$)
Harvard’s Law School faculty is one of the 7 most conservative in the nation. They and the Pioneer Institute (who subscribes to a social Darwin definition of free markets similar to the dogma that resulted in the starvation of 1 million Irish) embraced the mission of METCO, known for ed deform in Massachusetts.
mrob,
If you’re from Michigan State University, any chance you can get the Ed. Dept. to identify who funded the start up of the EPIC center on campus? EPIC is working with Douglas Harris’ ERA (housed at Tulane), which is funded by John Arnold. The grant they are working on, from the DeVos Ed. Dept., is for product creation and marketing plans for privatized education.
Shame on a public university for allowing activities that undermine the common good.
Harvard supports all sorts of nonsense.
It all depends on which department you are talking about.
Harvard has a well deserved reputation in areas like physics, chemistry, biology, history, languages but when it comes to areas like economics and education, facts take a back seat and ideology rules.
The JFK School at Harvard houses the Harvard Program on Education Policy and Governance, which was created by Paul Peterson. Paul is a voucher zealot, who has trained most of the nation’s academic supporters of choice (anything but public schools). The PEPG program is lavishly endowed by rightwing foundations and corporations and individuals.
harvard encourages wealthy parents to cough up big bucks so that their under-qualified, privileged children will be admitted and, be able to brag about Harvard degrees?
“Other departments”
Prof. Lawrence Lessig, so savior-like, wrote a book, Republic Lost, and he set up a politically active organization to honor Aaron Schwartz (arrested at the Koch’s MIT for a non-crime). Then, Lessig signed an amicus brief that served the goal of undercutting the middle class i.e. teachers. The brief was on Shook, Bacon letterhead, a law firm that has a reputation in wins for groups like big tobacco.
“Harv Ed Pee-er Review”
The Harvard Pee-er Review
Is really something new
Replacing edu journal
With Harvard Edu urinal
Should prolly be
Is really nothing new
In Harvard We Trust”
Deformers never fail
Though policies go bust
They always get the bail
From Harvard’s brainy trust
It’s an entire poetry genre of it’s own
That car won’t run”
They pawn off edu-junkers
On unsuspecting schools
The Harvard thinker-thunkers
Have sold us broken mules
Pondiscio used the word, “moral”, and didn’t choke?
What’s moral about 80% of Michigan charter schools operating as for-profits? What’s moral about men like Gates and Paul Allen using money derived from consumer profits to defeat judges who rendered verdicts favorable to public schools? What’s moral about the Aspen’s Senior Congressional Education Staff Network “creating a safe place” for policy development, away from constituent influence? What’s moral about America as an oligarchy, when so many have sacrificed so much for American democracy? What’s moral about ECOT’s role in the squandering of Ohio’s tax dollars and students’ potential?
What’s moral about ECOT’s owner financing the state Republican Party while, elected and appointed Republicans, condoned the charter debacle for years and continue to shield the enterprise from legal consequence?
If there was cosmic justice, White, male colonialists like the education privatizers running Facebook would choke on the word “moral”. Fordham’s path to power and influence shames a government of the people, by the people and for the people.
Pondiscio uses the Donald Trump/Betsy DeVos/Eva Moskowitz definition of “moral”. “Moral” is anything that benefits Pondicsio, Trump, DeVos and Moskowitz personally and they believe that as long as they can find a few kids who benefit a little (and as long as Pondiscio and his pals personally benefit a lot), that the vast number of kids who are harmed do not matter.
Pondiscio is one of those truly immoral people who throw the majority of children under a bus because he knows the funding for his generous salary wouldn’t be there if he dared to notice the harm the policies he embraces does to them. And Pondiscio convinces himself that he is moral because a small number of poor children who he deems “deserving” benefit from the policies he insists are “moral’. Even though far more children suffer because of it. Pondiscio does not care because those children can rot and he believes that is all they deserve.
NYC parent-
You captured the essence of Pondiscio, Campbell Brown, and Eva Moskowitz with great clarity. Their proclamations and activities aren’t hemmed in by the same principles that many other ed deformers appear to apply.
The Waltons, Koch brothers and Bill Gates seem to avoid claiming a “moral” high ground. Their amoral amalgam tends to draw a line – justifying ed deform while refraining from making a false claim about privatization’s morality. Bill Gates’ direct-report employees like Kim Smith publicly state the goal of charter schools, “…brands on a large scale.”
Laws and regulations, & fully-appropriated funding to enforce them, are the hallmarks of a civil society. Relax those, & you get the powerful writing their own rules. Appealing to the moral sense of the powerful sounds like a sort of end-stage parry for those so ruled, while organizing to grab back their share of the power. I like to think that’s where we’re at now.
Remember, this is the very same Robert Pondiscio who insists it is “moral”for a charter school top suspend as many as 20% of the 5 year old Kindergarten students because Pondiscio says if the charter says those kids are violent, who is he to question it. No doubt Pondiscio would question any public school which insisted that 20% of the middle class white 5 year old children acted out violently in their kindergarten classes, but since the kids being suspended in charters are often African-American, no doubt Pondiscio smugly believes in their violent natures. Otherwise there is no way he would not question a charter insisting that so many 5 year old children act out violently due to their violent naturesvand he embraces that belief in the naturally violent natures of 5 year old charter students (not the middle class white ones, of course) with the certainty of a white right wing racist.
Does Robert Pondiscio also embrace the Republicans’ desire to give every senior citizen a voucher for the same amount of money and let those seniors buy health insurance on the private market?
Does Robert Pondiscio insist that is the only “moral” way to give health insurance to seniors? “Here’s your voucher for $300/month and good luck!” Remember, Pondiscio embraces the notion that charters (and presumably health insurance companies) should be free to do anything they want to rid themselves of expensive “customers”.
I can’t think of anything more immoral than that. But Republicans have always been fighting for a program where Medicare is privatized so it is not surprising that Pondiscio and other immoral favorites of those people show the same concern to children as they do to seniors. Only those who are profitable matter and the rest can rot for all he cares. In the name of “morality” they can rot.
We will let them choose and the choices are ALL POISON.
Is open enrollment poison? Are magnet schools poison? Is Lebron’s school of choice in Akron poison? Are schools-within-schools poison? Are honors classes poison? Are vo-ed schools poison?
All charter schools that aren’t serving a specialty need such as a school for children with autism* or the school in the county jail hurt all public schools and the students in them. That does make them poison. Schools run by districts don’t position themselves as enemies to public education, are not funded and promoted by right-wing billionaires and right-wing think tanks whose real goal is to privatize education, and are not draining money from districts. So no, your premise is false and wrong.
Here’s a commentary on the many ways charter schools in California harm public schools and the students in public schools. I’m in California myself, but my understanding is that most or all of these points apply to charter schools in other states. https://teachingmalinche.com/2018/04/29/whats-wrong-with-charter-schools-the-picture-in-california/
Cynthia Weiss,
What happens when a charter doesn’t want that kid with autism? As soon as they can get him out of their school, their responsibility to him ends forever.
That is the difference between charters and all the other PUBLIC schools you mentioned. The public schools are part of one system. A kid who leaves a high performing magnet school doesn’t get dumped to the curb and told “find a charter who will take you because our public system doesn’t want you”.
Public education is about teaching ALL students. Magnets are part of that. Charters are not. And too many charters want the benefits of teaching thousands of kids as long as they can absolve themselves of responbility for those who they treat like dirt so they will leave.
carolinesf wrote…
“Schools run by districts don’t position themselves as enemies to public education”
I am sure there are choice supporters who do this, just like there are many district supporters who are openly hostile to choice.
I don’t believe that any of the choices I listed above are poison, just variations on giving parents options. Yvonne said some choices are poison, just wondering where she draws the poisonous choice line.
When the Koch brothers, the hedge fund managers, John Arnold and the tech tyrants are throwing big bucks around to get privatized education, anyone who doesn’t know the objective is poisonous to the common good, is stupid, Cynthia.
The entire billionaire-funded charter sector positions itself aggressively as an enemy to public education, and it’s false equivalence to respond that school districts — under attack by massively powerful right-wing “think tanks” (actually propaganda operations; “think tank” is a propaganda term) — position themselves as enemies to choice. Wherever a charter mouthpiece said school districts also advertise — that’s also false equivalence. Even in my district, which is an “all-choice” district (families can choose any public school), schools don’t advertise, and charters advertise and otherwise promote themselves with expensive, high-powered, aggressive campaigns.
Many parents of children with autism want their children mainstreamed in general education classes and view separate classes (let alone schools) as discriminatory, so that complicates the notion of specialty charter schools for children with autism.
Hi carolinesf,
Great point and I agree it is complicated especially so for special needs parents.
But like you said, some parents want mainstreaming and some parents don’t. If your local zoned district only mainstreams, it sure would be nice to give parents an option, wouldn’t it?
Cynthia Weiss, I suggest you read IDEA federal law & the DoEd regulations before making assumptions that parents of children with disabilities don’t have options in public schools. IDEA requires public schools to provide a continuum of placement options for children with disabilities from most restrictive (separate school) to least restrictive (full inclusion). There are a number of partial inclusive options in between the two. Without those regulations public schools would never have built those options into the system
Since 1975 public schools have built in a myiad of placement options within the public system. Decisions about the type & degree of inclusion in public schools are made by an IEP team. That team is made up of parents, teachers & related service professionals.The public school is then required by law to provide those services without regard to cost. Lack of resources cannot be a reason to deny services.
OTOH, in charters, children with disabilities have ONE option- what that charter offers. Children lose all of their IDEA guaranteed due process rights & protections when they go to a charter. In segregated, specialized charter schools placement decisions are made by the charter.
When charters kick children to the street, the charter keeps ALL of the public money that came with that child. It’s a win-win business plan charter management companies devised for themselves.
Think about the moral choice segregated charters offer parents of children with disabilities.
1. Charters use your child’s disability to market their schools as a better choice than public schools
2. Charters decide if your child deserves a seat.
3. Charters ignore those burdensome IDEA due process regulations.
4. Charters kick the child out if they don’t fit. Due process? Not our problem.
5. Charters keep all the money.
well explained
I think he means “moral agenda” for Thomas B. Fordham Institute. Not for everyone. A typical mindset that qualified candidates need to join in right-wing ed deformation league.
Nonpartisan Education Review provides a chronology of Fordham’s path to influence. Fordham is one of many of the oligarchy’s supporting pillars. Ohio, where Fordham began and where the Republican Party is funded by charter operators, rejects democracy. Gerrymandering, voter suppression and a lack of ballot issues related to charter schools guarantees the continued squandering of taxes and student promise.
In the above debate, one thing strikes me: No one can have everything they want without giving up something else they want.
We all want:
Fair access to educational opportunities for each citizen
Reasonable investment on the part of society that makes this a possibility
A electorate that values chooses reasonable leaders and preserves security of the people
A society that minimizes the number of people who do not contribute to the collective good, that all might work together for the common good
I assume that all of the participants would agree on those principles out loud. It is the achievement of them that sparks the debate. It is also the problem of dishonesty. What people say out loud is not necessarily what they really believe. The proof of belief is in the action.
It seems to me that no one in this debate is willing to confront the tendency we have to look only at our little plan. Twenty years ago, massive grant money caused local school systems to hire consultants for two day iservices who had one idea or another. Most of them were slick re-packaging of Maslow or Dewey, complete with boxes of techniques you could use to motivate children. Seldom had they done the math on their plan. They were so in love with their idea that they expected everyone else to get on board and take time from their own life to implement it. Teachers who did not agree were painted as lacking dedication. Parents who wanted something else were irresponsible. Often the suggested idea was not possible if not supported by an enormous infusion of money into the system. Administors who bought into a system were often disappointed to find that it did not work for them. Frustrated, they concocted forms to fill out that made it look like they were trying. Teachers, swamped by oversight, underpaid, feeling under appreciated, went into other places to earn a living.
Enter the wealthy into all of this. Gates or Broad never have to,consider the cost of their ideas, because their hubris prevents them from seeing the truth. They are the winners, forget the ideas of the losers. Competition is the lifeblood of the system that raised the skyscraper that houses their grain, so competition must be good. They never see what they give up. They cannot see that their economic success came at the expense of thousands of workers who cannot participate in the four values above.
Charter schools cannot add to the society precisely because the idea of competition is already extant in private education. There are people who want more than the underfunded public schools have to offer. These people have always gone to private alternatives, many of which try to set up funding for those who cannot afford small classes and better libraries. There was no need to try charters, they system was already in place, funded by those who could afford it. But private schools failed to help the movement toward the fourth point above. Rather, they sought to give a student who wanted more a chance to get it. Good charter schools try to duplicate this tradition. Small wonder that they go in and out of existence too rapidly to be of any use to society. At best they help single individuals who happen to be there when a good staff is in place for a time.
Public schools are faced with the dual problem of having to educate children who are in position to need much help due to societal ills or personal problems in their families. Public schools also must provide for children who are motivated and well supported at home. We cannot achieve the four goals above without massive investment in the system. The public/private partnership was one alternative that preserved the chance to try something new, to work within the community, and to achieve the most important aspect of educational institutions, stability.
Sorry, Charters. We need schools that stay put, that we might produce the values we agree on as listed above. As for vouchers, I will support the first system of vouchers that gives each student the 40,000 bucks required to go to a school with a good tradition. I would rather my tax hike went to create programs with public school, however, for such an infusion of cash would create a companion problem of oversight that would leave us top heavy with the salaries that kept diverse institutions from being cash cows for unscrupulous individuals.
Really good piece. I like the way you start from goals/ ideals shared by all [well, except the libertarians 🙂 ]. Every debate should have that starting point.
The Charter Rush”
The charter is a gold mine
A hedge-fund schemer’s trick
Like golden rush of forty-nine
It’s offer: “Get rich quick!”
But Gold of fools is our return
For buying into plot
And picks and spades and “lessons learned”
Are all we ever got
The Gambler’s Ruin”
The charter’s a casino
With odds that favor house
Of criminal Bambino
And other lousy louse
The offer is a jack-pot
But ruin’s what we get
And only crazy crack-pot
Would take the lousy bet
Nice, both of them!
Another problem I have with the “moral” argument for school choice is that it assumes that any disagreement with with that agenda is de facto immoral which stifles a genuine policy debate. It surprising to see a libertarian like Pondiscio arguing on grounds that limit a free and honest discussion.
“I cited the Center for Budget and Policy Priorities report showing that 29 states spent less on education in the decade after the 2008 recession.”
Actually, the situation is much worse than this chart from the article indicates
https://www.cbpp.org/sites/default/files/atoms/files/state-funding-per-student-fy-2008-2015_ia_wi_450.png
It is because the total inflation rate in the last 10 years was 15%. When you look at the chart, you’ll see that only 5 states’ school funding kept up with inflation.
In general, I think it is best to simply subtract this 15% from all the numbers in the chart. Then we get that Arizona cut its school funds by half. Mind boggling.
Ah, the chart is inflation adjusted.
Still, the chart is shocking as it is.
“it was a “moral agenda.”
But what was an explanation for how it is a moral agenda? That (5%) of poor kids should also have a “choice”?
Beyond the shoulda-woulda-coulda social theories, rests an
“inconvenient truth”. The merchants are smarter than their customers.
The “in the know” customers, heading the institutions, that bought into
the falsehoods.
SO, we must “teach” the merchants their proverbial “lessons”.
Teach the masses of their proverbial obligations.
After all, we’re “in the know” .
Problem is:
If we’re so “in the know”, why are we so “in the shit” at the same time?
They won’t be happy until there is 1 school to go to in each town, no matter how far or how difficult to get to. It will be a no excuses charter school. If you can’t get your kids there. too bad. If your kid gets thrown out, tough; they will not be educated.
Diane:
You’re an inspiration to us all. I can’t possibly thank you enough for all you’ve done for public education.
Before going into teaching at age 40 (want to avoid a midlife crisis, anybody?) I worked in management (as well as other vocations). It was a wonderful change. I was so happy to have a meaningful job with a good amount of autonomy.
I noticed the change right away when the “reformers” came on board. Scripted curriculum. Strict rubrics. Periods blocked out and timed to the very last minute. Top down military style chain of command. So much like what I’d left behind in the corporate world.
This was early on. Most of my colleagues dismissed my concerns. Then I met someone who turned me on to your blog. I’ve been a regular here ever since.
You have been and continue to be right on point to everything I experience and more.
Keep it coming, Diane. We’re definitely with you and have got your back.
Agree, gitapik.