Eight years ago, I wrote a book about corporate reform and pointed out that the deliberate killing of large high schools had eliminated specialized and very successful programs for students, including advanced classes in math and science, and programs in the arts.
Today, the New York Times observed (too late to matter, too late to save Jamaica High Schoool in Queens or Christpher Columbus in the Bronx) that the Bloomberg-Klein decision to close large high schools and replace them with small schools has effectively destroyed successful music programs. The compensation is supposed to be that the graduation rate is higher in the small schools. But as I reported in my book, “The Death and Life of the Great American School System: How Testing and Choice Are Undermining Education,” the small schools enroll different students from the large schools they replaced. The neediest students are shuffled off elsewhere.
The Times reports today, in a long article,
“When Carmen Laboy taught music at Christopher Columbus High School in the Bronx, beginning in 1985, there were three concert bands. The pep band blasted “Malagueña” and Sousa marches on the sidelines at basketball games, and floated down Morris Park Avenue during the Columbus Day parade. The jazz band entertained crowds at the Ninth Avenue Food Festival, and even warmed the room at a Citizens Budget Commission awards dinner at the Waldorf Astoria.
“Today, Columbus no longer exists. In its former building, which now houses five small high schools, a music teacher struggles to fill a single fledgling concert band. Working out of Ms. Laboy’s old band room in the basement, Steven Oquendo recruits students for a sole period of band class from his school, Pelham Preparatory Academy, and the others on campus, with their different bell schedules and conflicting academic priorities.
“It does make it much more difficult to teach,” he said. “But we always find a way of making it happen.”
“Between 2002 and 2013, New York City closed 69 high schools, most of them large schools with thousands of students, and in their place opened new, smaller schools. Academically, these new schools inarguably serve students better. In 2009, the year before the city began closing Columbus, the school had a graduation rate of 37 percent. In 2017, the five small schools that occupy its former campus had a cumulative graduation rate of 81 percent.
“But one downside of the new, small schools is that it is much harder for them to offer specialized programs, whether advanced classes, sports teams, or art or music classes, than it was for the large schools that they replaced. In the case of music, a robust program requires a large student body, and the money that comes with it, to offer a sequence of classes that allows students to progress from level to level, ultimately playing in a large ensemble where they will learn a challenging repertoire and get a taste of what it would be like to play in college or professionally.
“In a large concert band, “you’re not the only trumpet player sitting there — there’s seven of you,” said Maria Schwab, a teacher at Public School 84 in Astoria, Queens, who is also a judge at festivals organized by the New York State School Music Association. “And you’re not the only clarinetist, but there’s a contingent of 10. In that large group, there’s a lot of repertoire open to you that would not be open to smaller bands.”
“The new schools chancellor, Richard A. Carranza, himself a mariachi musician, has said that he plans to focus on the arts, which can especially benefit low-income or socioeconomically disadvantaged students, according to the National Endowment of the Arts. A 2012 analysis of longitudinal studies found that eighth graders who had been involved in the arts had higher test scores in science and writing than their counterparts, while high school students who earned arts credits had higher overall G.P.A.s and were far more likely to graduate and attend college.
“The Bronx offers an illustration of how far Mr. Carranza has to go. There, 23 high schools were closed during the Bloomberg era, second only to Brooklyn. Of 59 small schools on 12 campuses that formerly housed large, comprehensive high schools, today only 18 have a full-time music teacher. In many of those, the only classes offered were music survey courses known as general music, or instruction in piano or guitar, or computer classes where students learn music production software. Only eight schools had concert bands, and of those, only five had both beginner and intermediate levels.”
The students with cognitive disabilities are not in the new small schools. The English language learners, the newcomers who speak no English, are gone.
Schools that once enrolled 4,000 students now house five schools, each with an enrollment of 500 or less. Do the math. When you disappear 1500 of 4,000 students, it does wonders for your graduation rate!
You can deduce this from the article, but it is never spelled out plainly. The small schools are not enrolling the same students as the so-called “failing high schools” of 4,000. The subhead of the article reads: “Downside of Replacing City’s Big Failing Schools.” I suggest that the big high schools were not “failing.” They were enrolling every student who arrived at their door, without regard to language or disability.
This is not success. This is a deliberate culling of students that involves collateral damage, not only the shuffling off of the neediest students, but the deliberate killing of the arts, advanced classes, sports, and the very concept of comprehensive high school, all to be able to boast about higher graduation rates for those who survived. A PR trick.

Pure idiocy. In addition to the irreplaceable experiences arts programs offer, music and other arts are critical components of cognitive development. Learning music has demonstrable effect on mathematical and language development. Music was the first language, perhaps a necessary precondition for all human development thereafter.
And, apart from these reasons, do we not want to provide kids with experiences that enliven their spirits, introduce them to ineffable beauty and give them a lifetime of joy, even if other aspects of life are limiting and difficult?
This country has no soul.
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Agreed. When I read this article, I felt sad and then angry. Bloomberg is a big supporters of the arts, but not in schools, when kids are most eager to learn them. And he had total control.
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It’s looting and social vandalism, brought to you by an Overclass whose greed and will to power are insatiable, and enabled by legislatures turned into brothels and an obsequious, sycophantic media…
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“legislatures turned into brothels” with great retirement plans that come with the best health plan in the world … for the elected who vote on their own pay, retirement, and health plans. No negotiations needed like labor unions must do.
It must be great to be able to write the legislation and then vote for your own pay raises, health care program, and retirement plan.
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This comparison is a terrible insult to brothels.
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You are so correct. People that work in brothels “of their own free will” are much better people than most elected officials in today’s government. In fact, I often question if most elected officials are even people.
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Outrageous, shameful, thank you billionaire mayors and the billionaire boys’ club for yet another private crime against the public sector when the list is already far too long. This is why any movement or wildcat strike has to push way past the finish line, b/c there is so much accumulated damage to recover from. No small fixes or tweaks or promises can possibly restore or renew public education.
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Michael,
I think that pretty well sums it up!
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Sorry, i disagree.
You should state that corrupted leaders have no soul.
America is a multicultural and a cyber-culture that blend with a strong racism in a capitalism societty. As a result, chaos and violence continue happening. Back2basic
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Good catch, May!
Have to agree with you on that!
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“Deformer Art”
They’ve got no soul
But lots of sole
To crush you under shoe
A martial art
To rip apart
And really make you blue
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“This country has no soul.”
Maybe not but at least we still have soul music!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-FzitI4-m8
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Gates funded the breakup of large schools into smaller ones and when it failed, he moved on to his next failed agenda. Everything Gates has done to improve public education has failed and continues to fail.
What was the reason that Gates dropped his membership from ALEC … was it because the Koch brothers wouldn’t give him a meaningful seat at their table … wouldn’t listen to his ideas that would have achieved the same thing they wanted to do to the public sector and the working class?
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Richard Carranza is no change agent. But you can work miracles, Diane, so let’s see.
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An award-winning, internationally successful young singer-songwriter that I am a fan of is trying in her own way to bring music back to the schools she attended in New York State.
After she earned her first million in music at age 12, she brought back music to a local public school near where she lives and she advocates that other schools should do the same thing.
Here is Grace performing with the chorus she brought back to one public school. The chorus is called “The Little Miracles” and the district they attend is the East Ramapo School District in New York State. Grace is the one on the chair singing along and playing the banjo. They are singing one of Grace’s own songs that she also sang at the Speical Olympics in Austria.
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“Reformer Things”
When Cat-in-the-Hat
Messed up with Things
He cleaned with DIRT-majigger
When school deformers
Spread their wings
They LEAVE a mess much bigger
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You tell ’em, Diane!
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: )
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so glad you are writing about this. I had the same exact thought when I read that NY Times article.
Bloomberg took failing schools and decided that breaking them up into smaller schools and letting the lowest performing kids disappear was somehow better than providing opportunities to those students.
Small schools double the overhead while cutting out activities that keep some at-risk kids engaged in schools. Music, Art, Athletics, etc.
There was a fascinating article in Chalkbeat about a girl graduating from Fort Hamilton High School who felt she wasn’t adequately prepared for the SHSAT or the regular high school search process. (That was her default school).
Fort Hamilton High school is one of the largest high schools in the city with over 4,500 students! But they have special programs for high achievers and teach some classes in other languages for students still learning English.
That girl was admitted to Columbia University. She got to participate in extracurricular activities and was challenged academically.
There were students who did not want to challenge themselves academically and did not do particularly well. However, there were bands and music groups they could join. There were many PSAL sports they could participate in. There were a lot of reasons for them to be engaged in school.
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^^I should have summed up: NYC needs MORE Fort Hamilton High Schools that have honors classes, remedial classes, music, art and sports. Large high schools have successfully incorporated both for generations. And they often provided ways for at-risk students NOT engaged in academics to be engaged in some other part of school. And even if that kid never passes a Regents exam, that is a good thing.
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This post shows how blind and misleading education by the numbers can be. Nobody can put a value on the arts; yet we know they have widespread impact on many students. Shuffling students to appear to be doing “better” for the bean counters is a false so-called gain when students are losing the music education that influences so many other aspects of their lives. What happened to neediest students and ELLs? Are they relegated to some basement in front of a screen all day?
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Bill Gates thinks electronic paintings are “art” and has them all over his house, you know, cuz you get tired of looking at a real Monet or Van Gogh after a couple minutes.
These people!e would not know art if it fell off the wall and hit them in the head.
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I am a graduate of Christopher Columbus High School back when it was a real school. We had music programs, a variety of clubs, sports programs and more. When Bill Gates decided that small schools were the answer for other people’s children, all of the vibrancy of the large schools went away. It breaks my heart when I compare my son’s high school in the suburbs to the high school in the Bronx where I currently teach. We have no music program and minimal after school activities. My son is in the school marching and concert band. It’s not that NYC schools never had these opportunities; it’s that they were taken away. When 24% of the DOE’s budget goes to administrative costs, we have a problem.
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Maybe if New York City weren’t paying so much money to Success Academy and other assorted charters and maybe if Cuomo would pay up the money the state owes NYC, the students in the Bronx could have marching bands, plays and clubs too.
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Don’t forget to add the administrative costs that increased by orders of magnitude; each of those small schools needs Principals, APs and so on. Then there are the inevitable and wasteful turf battles that ensue.
Heedless, arrogant social vandalism…
If there’s a Hell, Michael Bloomberg and Joel Klein both belong there, if only for how they destroyed the local neighborhood high schools (though there are many other reasons, as well).
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“Hell on Earth”
There is no Hell
So justice bell
Will have to ring on earth
To wait for God
To punish fraud
Is moot, for what it’s worth
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Double irony is that New York City is still one of the international arts centers and so many billionaires who fund the non-profit arts are really hell-bent on stripping studies of the arts from schools, then feeling generous if they allow it back in as “an enrichment.”
That phrase means more than it should as a premise for education. But it also means frill, bonus, extra, or “nice but not necessary” a phrase from the late Harry Broudy. So-called personalized learning is also being developed so studies in the arts, if any, are placed into project-based learning time with no no coherent instructional plan.
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I’d bet that a lot of billionaires fund the arts purely to launder their otherwise soiled reputation.
That’s definitely why the Sacklers do it.
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The article also ignores that Columbus HS had a better graduate rate before the small schools started siphoning off all the top-performing students. What’s shocking about the NYT article is that NYC is the only district in the state where music is not a required subject in middle school.
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See, I was wondering about that. The article says that academics are “inarguably better,” but it seems like an argument to me. You can’t possibly have the rich variety of classes and experiences with these dumb small schools than in a comprehensive high school.
That DESTROYS academics, not improves them, right?
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Studies in the arts have an academic component but they are DOA if merely academic. So are most subjects.
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Another thing the article leaves out, Bloomberg and Klein cancelled Project Arts.
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“I wrote a book about corporate reform and pointed out that the deliberate killing of large high schools had eliminated specialized and very successful programs for students, including advanced classes in math and science, and programs in the arts.”
Ed reformers, as business people, certainly should have know that. Big schools can offer more because they have more students so can justify special classes.
My son’s high school is the largest in the county and everyone knows they offer more options because they CAN. They can fill an advanced science class or a string section in middle school. The smaller schools can’t. They don’t have the numbers to justify the expense.
This really never occurred to Gates?
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Gates comes from a world where the $35,000 or $40,000/year private tuition plus the expected parent donations on top of that can pay for all sorts of extras. Even if the school is very small.
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So much research illustrates that kids who have regular music instruction are able to be more creative, to do better academically, to think more broadly. Taking music from children is tantamount to taking away their ability to navigate the larger world.
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I wonder about this exact issue with fragmented systems of charter and private schools making up a “school system”.
What will we end up? What if I want to take music but don’t want to go to specialized music-focused school?
What if I want an advanced science class but don’t want to go to a “STEM school”?
What happens to “general education” when we have a collection of contractors all offering what they feel like offering.
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Good on ya, Diane, for bringing up what was/is lost in the big to small school debacle.
It seems to me that perhaps a 2,000 student sized comprehensive high school would be about the right size-but then my experience with a 2,450 student population was one in which all were housed in buildings built for about 1,500 students so it was very overcrowded. My last school at 1,000 was big enough for choir and band but we struggled to field sports teams, and there weren’t enough students to really keep a good foreign language program filled. Size can very much matter in what can be offered to the students.
Now a quibble: “This is a deliberate culling of students that involves collateral damage,”
I can’t stand that “collateral damage” term. It is meant to obfuscate the very real harms-death and destruction that our military has perpetrated on so many (millions) of innocents throughout the world. To use the term is to normalize it and therefore normalize the very behavior that is so atrocious that should rightly be condemned.
“This is a deliberate culling of students that involves causing harm to all, not just those that are “culled” but to all the students.”
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Electronic pairings go with meals online.
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“the deliberate killing of large high schools had eliminated specialized and very successful programs for students, including advanced classes in math and science, and programs in the arts” — techically, there is no relation of the school size and specialized programs, because – surprise! – these programs do not have to be taught on premises. In fact, it would be much better if each and every high school did not build an Olympic-size stadium, but used a community stadium, that would serve several schools as well as providing non-school use. Or swimming: every school does not have to have a swimming pool with eight lanes, instead multiple schools can use a single dedicated pool. Same for music: a separate music facility like, um, conservatory or a simple musical school, would suffice. But the U.S. is bad on sharing, despite overusing the word “community”.
As for school size, I think that any establishment housing more than 500 people on the same premises is a recipe for disaster. I just hate – HATE – huge schools, to me they resemble army barracks at best, or prison at worst, with their fences, scanners, cameras, peace officers, etc. Because after you get a certain number of people, teachers alone cannot control them, especially if those “kids” were taught in elementary and middle school that it is ok to walk and talk during class, or even to insult and hit each other.
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Back again wrote, “‘kids’ were taught in elementary and middle school that it is ok to walk and talk during class, or even to insult and hit each other.”
Who taught them what you allege, the teachers?
If you think it was the teachers, you are totally wrong. In fact, you are an ignorant idiot.
That attitude in a child was learned at home from the parents or guardians or from the street gangs some children join starting usually when they are age 12, 13, 14 or 15, but recruiting for gangs mostly takes place outside of the school environments in the community where the child lives.
The reason schools have CPOs is because of that environment on the other side of the school’s fence.
Even in small high schools that are in areas with high ratios of poverty and multigenerational street gangs, CPOs are necessary.
Again, BA displays total, biased ignorance when it comes to public education and teachers.
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Well, this was a bad choice of words, I apologize. What I meant is stuff like “bopping” which is tolerated – not teached – during class.
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Are you talking about the top definition for “boppin” from the Urban Dictionary that I just found? I can’t print that definition here.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Boppin
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Gee, taught not teached, of course.
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No, I am talking about the first one from this: https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/bop But thanks for expanding my horizons.
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1 hit someone, especially gently
Tom bopped him on the nose.
2 [intransitive] to dance to popular music
Which one?
And here is where I prove you wrong.
“Public school systems will employ about 3.2 million full-time-equivalent (FTE) teachers in fall 2017,” In addition, there are about 13,600 public school districts with more than 98,000 schools
How many of those 3.2 million FTE elementary and secondary school teachers encourage their students to “bob”?
How many YouTube videos have you watched to allege that this “bopping” is an epidemic that public school teachers allegedly approve of across the United States?
In an attempt to find an answer, I searched YouTube and came up with 203 results like this one.
“Oak Park High School Official Spring Break Boppin Video”
It seems most of those videos are coming from Oak Park High School students. The video above shows them “bopping” in the bathroom.
According to this map, there are THREE Oak Park High Schools in the United States. I think the one in the video took place in Michigan.
Wow, what about the other 98,000 public schools? If bopping was an epidemic in our public schools sanctioned and encouraged by teachers, one might think it would be filmed in a classroom and not in a bathroom without a teacher in sight and there would be literally thousands of bopping videos on YouTube from tens of thousands of public schools.
I suspect that any public school teacher that actually approved of that “bopping” and encouraged it might be at risk of being fired.
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Smartphones are not allowed in schools around here. But you are correct: I cannot prove the breadth of this fad, or any other unwanted physical attacks for that matter that happens DURING CLASS, not during breaks in a bathroom. I talk about what I see, and it is not in Michigan. Also, I did not mean that teachers approve of bopping or things like that, but that they do not care much, they turn their back and make it as if they do not see what is happening.
I presume, you have no objections regarding my other points, like having separate community arts or sports schools that would still belong to public school system? This would allow making smaller high schools, would not it?
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Bill Gates already had his failed small school experiment. It didn’t work.
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The story line was that Gates’ small schools experiment failed everywhere except NYC. IN NYC, the small schools were allowed to exclude the neediest kids, so success.
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Thank you for that fact.
Cherry picking children really does help lead to a fake facade of success. Imagine how the test scores would skyrocket if every child living in poverty was blocked from going to school. That would also lower the cost of education in the United States when about half of the children weren’t allowed to go to school.
Wait, isn’t that what Eva Moskowitz and many other corporate charter schools are already doing?
What will we do with all those children when they can’t go to school? I’m sure that the Koch brothers and the Walton family already have that answer. A return to the 19th century back when children were considered property and could be sold to factories or brothels to work for next to nothing.
To make that happen the Koch brothers will want to return to poverty level back to 1900 when it was 40-percent of the population.
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It never fails to amaze me how an intentionally botched implementation of a good idea is considered a proof of the invalidity of the idea itself. I like smaller schools, no matter whether Gates or Koch or whoever else failed in this enterprise. I think that arts and sports programs as the reason to keep schools large are bogus, because these programs can be externalized into specialized art and sports schools, which in fact would be in tune with the elective nature of most of these subjects: why building a huge school with a stadium, a pool and a theater when only a handful students will use these services? Instead make schools smaller both in terms of students and in terms of the building: it will feel more homey, welcoming, less antagonizing. Those who want to take arts or sports classes would be able to do it in a proper facility, which would serve many schools, not one.
But it seems that some simply want it the way it was before 1980s, behaving no different than Trump’s voters who wanted to return in times when the country was great. This is retrograde, not progress.
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“behaving no different than Trump’s voters who wanted to return in times when the country was great”
Laughing out loud.
The United States today, well at least up to Trump’s presidency, was more powerful than it has ever been in its history.
There was no time when the country was greater.
Larger schools have an advantage over smaller schools. Those larger high schools have the ability to offer more electives and support programs.
Now if you want smaller, focus on class size. Limit classes to sixteen or fewer students and higher more highly trained and qualified teachers that are equal to the teachers in Finland with their training and the support they receive.
Inside those classrooms, the teachers and students are totally unaware of the total size or student population of the school. With more students, a high school has more funding. With more funding, that high school is capable of offering a more diverse list of electives and programs that focus on job readiness out of high school.
For instance, Shanghai High School (Chinese: 上海中学) is a top public high school in Shanghai municipality, People’s Republic of China. It also has an international division, the Shanghai High School International Division. In a 2016 ranking of Chinese high schools that send students to study in American universities, Shanghai High School ranked number 3 in mainland China in terms of the number of students entering top American universities.
That high school in Shanghai has more than 3,000 students.
If you want a small high school live in a small rural community where the students sometimes have to travel by bus or car for more than an hour or more to reach the only high school in their region but don’t be surprised if that high school has a large student population coming from a much larger area.
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BackAgain, the shared- facilities idea might work in certain communities of a certain size, but not a panacea. Where I live (central NJ), there is already only one stadium per town & it’s used all the time in season. The towns have second Olympic-sized pools at the Y’s, which are booked solid (no time available for hisch students). County colleges w/in 10 mis already share their theater & dance facilities & staff w/local hischs… My hometown eventually built a 2nd ice-skating rink because the one at our uni was used 24hrs/ day– literally. My sib hockey players used to do their thing at 4am. I don’t see under-utilized facilities around here.
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@Lloyd Lofthouse, China has 1.4 billion people, many of whom were born in villages then moved to cities. In China they have tele-classes in some schools, where they have several rooms with a teacher present in one of them, and the lesson is broadcast into other rooms, where the image of this teacher is presented onscreen. This style of teaching is possible because they don’t screw around with idiotic groupwork and self-investigations, but deliver the material straight and to the point. In any case, schools are large there not because they work better, but just because of sheer population size. Small classes are the byproduct of the groupwork mania, which does not work anyway, because four students sitting around a table will not come with a solution to a problem they see for the first time – this is nonsense, this is bogus teaching, non-teaching. I don’t mind larger class sizes, I know – yes, I know from personal experience – that classes of 40 and even 45 students do work if you have strong disctipline and no idiotic groupwork and no walking around while the class is in progress. I’d rather have larger classes in a smaller school than smaller classes in a larger school. Also, you saying that inside their classrooms the students are totally unaware of the school size and what happens outside this room is a telltale sign that your idea is to keep students on the leash, keep them in class at all times. In my local school they have 4-minute breaks just to make sure the kids have no time to do something inappropriate, I bet you would like this schedule. It is horrible on my opinion, it is like prison.
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Back again, go back to the 19th century. The Chinese system is despised by the Chinese. The children are abused. They are in gruesome test prep programs after their “material delivery” school day, sometimes until midnight. I have talked with scores of “high achieving” Chinese students. They understand what they have missed, intellectually and emotionally. Suicide rates are astronomical. Their critical capacities are atrophied. They are the end result when any system, any school, any culture, celebrates rote achievement and talks about real education as “idiotic group work.”
I don’t know how you’re involved in education, but if it is as a teacher, please find another job.
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I have no idea where you are getting your information if it is valid information.
Let’s turn to a valid source of information, a report out of the OECD on Education in China.
Page 30 of 68 pages
Reforming curriculum at all levels and focusing more on
creativity
The New Curriculum Reform started in 2001 covers the
entire education system, including educational philosophy,
aim, content, method and the evaluation system at all
educational phases. Six objectives are specified in the
Basic Education Curriculum Reform Outline:
1)
Change from a narrow perspective of knowledge
transmission in classroom instruction to a perspective
concerned with learning how to learn and developing
positive attitudes.
2)
Change from a subject-centred curriculum structure
to a balanced, integrated and selective curriculum
structure to meet the diverse needs of schools and
students.
3)
Change from partly out-of-date and extremely
abstruse curriculum content to essential knowledge
and skills in relation to students’ lifelong learning.
4)
Change from a passive-learning and rote-learning style
to an active, problem-solving learning style to improve
students’ overall abilities to process information, acquire
knowledge, solve problems and learn cooperatively.
5)
Change the function of curriculum evaluation from
narrowly summative assessment (e.g. examinations
for the certificate of levels of achievement and for
selection) to more formative purposes such as the
promotion of student growth, teacher development and
instructional improvement as additional functions.
6)
Change from centralised curriculum control to a
joint effort between the central government, local
authorities and schools to make the curriculum more relevant to local situations.
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Here’s the link to that OECD report on China’s public school reforms.
Click to access Education-in-China-a-snapshot.pdf
Oh, and make sure to look at #4 where it says: “Change from a passive-learning and rote-learning style to an active, problem-solving learning style to improve
students’ overall abilities to process information, acquire knowledge, solve problems and learn cooperatively.”
Does BackAgain know what “learn cooperatively” means?
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@Steve Nelson, please, do not attribute to me what I haven’t said. Since you are giving me job recommendations, I am going to give you a piece of advice as well: invest in some close reading techniques. Did I say anything about rote learning? Did I say I preferred rote drills to learning concepts? Did I say I liked the Chinese system? You seem to have misread my post, as it is usual on this board, where people have preconceived notion on everything and react to singular keywords like Pavlov’s dogs. You can do rote memorization in a group, you know? Likewise, you can do some great individual work involving logical thinking and working with the facts and using a textbook, no group required, thank you very much. By the way, this is just in: https://www.chalkbeat.org/posts/us/2018/05/14/heres-what-annoyed-high-school-students-most-about-the-switch-to-common-core/
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I read closely enough. “. . . and the lesson is broadcast into other rooms, where the image of this teacher is presented onscreen. This style of teaching is possible because they don’t screw around with idiotic groupwork and self-investigations, but deliver the material straight and to the point.”
I don’t mean to be uncivil. Your posts just indicate a very traditional approach to education as the instruction or delivery of material or information. I see it very differently. I’ll send you a copy of my book for free if you would actually read it.
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Seeing a teacher on a screen is not traditional education!
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@Lloyd Lofthouse:
Page 10: “After finishing compulsory education, students can choose whether to continue with senior secondary education.” Page 11: “some 15-year-old students do not enrol in secondary school. For those that do, they can opt between the general (academic) track or vocational track.” – this is exactly what I am suggesting to be implemented in this country. Those that want to study will enroll high school – only after passing a mandatory exit test in middle school – and will be eligible to enroll to a university. Everyone else will be cutting trees with a chainsaw in Oregon, or laying oil pipe for Koch brothers, or drilling shale gas in Montana.
In China, the students – rather, pupils – are striving to be accepted into senior secondary school, because it is the only road to higher education, so the entrance exam is a cut-throat experience. These students can make use of any reasonable curriculum, and because they are willing to learn, they will do well in inquiry-oriented programs, and they will not mind groupwork as well, because after all China, at least nominally, is a Communist country, which puts collective goals above personal.
You are quoting examples from Finland or China, forgetting that the U.S. is neither Finland nor China, and there is no indication it will change its economic and social system to either state-supported social capitalism, or state-supported capitalism with Communist flavor. You cannot import teachers or curricula without changing the whole system.
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Education in China. … “All citizens must attend school for at least nine years, known as the nine-year compulsory education, which the government funds. It includes six years of primary education, starting at age six or seven, and three years of junior secondary education (junior middle school) for ages 12 to 15.’
But many rural students leave school at the end of sixth grade and return to the farm to work. There are about 800-million rural Chinese (all ages) and in rural China, high school and/or college education are not considered as important as it is to urban Chinese.
China offers vocational training past ages 12 to 15 for young people that want it and for students that qualify, they are allowed to continue on to high school but that is totally voluntary. That’s where the high stakes tests come in. Students take the tests to qualify for a seat in high school and another test to qualify for a seat in college.
Compared to mandatory education in the United States that goes all the way through 12th grade (age 17, 18 and sometimes even 19) and there is no vocational option in high school. All high school degrees are academic degrees designed to lead to the next step that is college.
“According to new numbers just released from the U.S. Census Bureau, 80.7 percent of the U.S. population lived in urban areas as of the 2010 Census, a boost from the 79 percent counted in 2000. … For the 2010 count, the Census Bureau has defined 486 urbanized areas, accounting for 71.2 percent of the U.S. population”
In China, almost 60 percent of the people still live in rural areas vs less than 20 percent for the US.
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Thanks, I can get your book onto my Kindle, price included in my Amazon subscription. I wonder are you get paid for each download as well as per sale of a physical book? Anyway, have you opened the link? Students that don’t know jack will just waste time in groups, while students who know stuff would have to do it for everyone and would be penalized for bad grades of the group members – this smells like Socialism in a country that has always been anti-Communist, what’s up with that? Not that I care about the monikers. In any case, this style of teaching is appropriate for elementary school, where kids can do simple stuff like making play-doh things or draw whatever they like, but this is not the way to teach in high school, and remember that I am talking mostly about high school here, and a bit about middle school. As we can see from experience and the numbers, elementary school system is mostly ok in this country. So, those silly experiments with rubber bands to “inquire” about linear functions are just a poor man’s replacement of a proper physics course. Physics starts in high school, and it is elective, and it is not available in many schools even if you elect to study it, and if it is available, it is just a one-year course. In short, it is a joke. These “experiments” must be done in proper physics and chemistry classes, instead the math course tries to incorporate them into the curriculum because proper science courses are not taught at schools. On the other hand, in a chemistry course are you going to warn students not to pour water into acid, or you going to let them find out that this might be dangerous, huh?
If one wants to “investigage”, get a good textbook, go home, do some problems, watch video on YouTube, there is no need to spend 20 minutes of class time on videos; write some simulation programs, there are very few of those who want to do this, and if there are more than just a few, they usually organize clubs of after-school classes. Others, who just don’t care, do not need investigation, and do not benefit from groupwork. They need just some basic skills to be able to operate, say, a chainsaw to make sure they don’t cut off their fingers on the first day.
To summarize the fads of the last two-three-four decades:
* investigation – ok to figure out that two buttons and three buttons yields five buttons; ok in high school for homework
* groupwork – ok for elementary school
* technology – not ok for any grade
* context – poor replacement for proper science courses, real shame.
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BackAgain, I am astonished at so many of your posts. Are you just making up things.
“I know from personal experience – that classes of 40 and even 45 students do work if you have strong disctipline and no idiotic groupwork and no walking around while the class is in progress.”
Please explain how you deal with 45 students who are very quiet and listen but more than half do not understand the concept you are teaching.
You sound like one of those inexperienced teachers who believes that they can “teach” (i.e. mostly lecture) to a group of 45 quiet students and if any of those students have not grasped the Algebra concept, it’s because they are all “undisciplined”.
Lecturing to a large group of students of diverse abilities and expecting them to all understand the one way you have been rote taught to lecture to them and blaming the ones who don’t get it for being “undisciplined” is not teaching.
Except in charter schools. Is that where your experience comes from? The kids who don’t learn in your classes of 45 are to blame for their own lack of learning? Even if they are ELL. Even if they have special needs. Even if they haven’t been fed properly or lack proper eye glasses and can’t see or had to stay up until 2 the night before helping their parents or watching siblings while their parents worked.
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I think Back Again is a sock puppet for Eva Moskowitz or Michelle Rhee.
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@NYCPSP,
“Please explain how you deal with 45 students who are very quiet and listen but more than half do not understand the concept you are teaching.” – half of the students are blithering idiots? Or half of them have “special needs”? This is unlikely unless they live in close proximity to a nuclear test site… or in Flint, MI. But I am not in Flint. So, why would not they understand the concepts? It is not lecturing, you are making stuff up. Sometimes it is individual work like flash-quizzes, other times it is solving a problem at the whiteboard in front of the class, yet other times it is question/answer sessions. There are many ways of engaging a class. The point is, they must be quiet when not asked to talk; only one of them is talking when answering or explaining or making comments. They do not shout from their desk.
Also, with a correct curriculum it does not matter whether one ELL or not, formulas look the same in any language, except for the units, as the U.S. is the only country still using Imperial system, but this hurts mostly in physics and chemistry, and does not matter much in math. Quite the opposite, it is the context-based groupwork programs that I despise, which require too much from ELL students, they are written like third-rate novels, they require reading several pages of junk text just to get across one single formula, and then they want a student to write another novela explaining how he got the answer.
This is a system, or at least it is supposed to be a system. You cannot change one part without changing another. Want real context? Teach physics. You have linear functions in math? Teach uniform motion in a physics course SIMULTANEOUSLY with teaching algebra. This country lacks cohesive SYSTEM between the subjects and between the grades, which is exacerbated by having different districts for elementary, middle, and high schools. It is like sailing from one island to another. Proponents of individual state, district and teacher rights to teach as they feel fit forget about this. Then students leave the school, and twenty percent of them cannot even read.
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“I think Back Again is a sock puppet for Eva Moskowitz or Michelle Rhee.” – because Eva Moskowitz offers five years of physics at her schools? Really? Instead of absorbing and analyzing the critique you chose the simplest route of them all: chalk your opponent as a sock puppet. I am having a beer, cheers!
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I am note sure where I fall on the size debate. I teach at a school which had 218 students in 9-12 in 1987. We are now at 475, down from 520 or so when a large class left. I see advantages both ways.
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NCES data show that small high schools are usually able to offer only one or two courses in music and the visual arts, far short a full sequence, and not a diversified menu.
But then there is another hard fact. Relatively few states require any fine arts credits for graduation.
Middle school programs, if offered, are rarely scheduled as a requirement. Instead, the arts are often put into a menu of “exploratory courses,” less than a year and as short as six weeks. These options are offered in the seventh grade or the sixth grade (rarely both grades). These courses often function as a screening process for students who elect study art during the eighth grade. The net effect is that relatively few people who graduate from high school have little formal education in art and most are not prepared for collegiate studies.
I would be interested in knowing how many courses in the arts are offered in your high school and whether these are elective or required.
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We have a very good band, with multiple offerings relating to music theory and the like. Our school has been state champion band a couple of times. We have one art teacher, shared by Middle and High School. We are also in a sort of competition with other schools in the county for distribution of wealth, so I cannot say how we stack up with schools that are really funded.
One advantage I see is that the best students need the average students. In order to offer a high level math class, we need for the average students to step in and perform above what they might do otherwise. I have wittnessed larger schools that did not need the average kids at all. They just taught the upper crust and let the rest skate. We have to have a lot our kids come along for the ride in a calculus class that might not get attention in a big school.
I think we could offer more different classes if we were funded for them, but I can see why the money is not there.
My old principal felt that the addition of band was a big weight off his disciplinary shoulders. He recalls seeing a lot of the kids for discipline matters one year, and then watching the same kids excel in the band the next. I see what he was talking about.
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“In order to offer a high level math class, we need for the average students to step in and perform above what they might do otherwise.” – I am surprised they did not accept another stance instead: to cancel higher lever classes because there are not enough above average students. Would be much simpler, would not it? This is what happens where I am.
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My thoughts on the NYT article:
Seem to be some major omissions. Reader would assume that big-hisch of X# students, when broken into into 5 smaller (X/5-student) hischs = double the grad rate (at the expense of hardly any arts).
Diane fills in one blank: the sum of students in the smaller schools is actually 63%X, w/many [lower achievers?] placed elsewhere. A few small-hisch teachers in comment thread volunteer another: admin-pressured fudging-upward of marginal grades so as to [falsely] raise grad rates. Both these undermine the cockeyed ratio of grad rate: arts quotient. Which raises questions: could [honest] stats be improved by availability of music/ arts? & what about the 37% culled out – had they been included, could music/ arts have helped achievement, & do they get any where they ended up?
“Of 59 small schools on 12 campuses that formerly housed large, comprehensive high schools, today only 18 have a full-time music teacher… Only eight schools had concert bands, and of those, only five had both beginner and intermediate levels.”
Wow that is PATHETIC, & illustrates the foolishness of reducing school size by 8-fold– resulting in grad class sizes of 125 like those of rural outposts, whose schs have all the same pbms in providing a decent music program, let alone art, sports, SpEd, adv curric, etc!
In baby boom days my [upstate-NY] sr hisch graduated 500+; today it is about same size (1600) but 4 grades; graduates 375. The [NJ] hisch my kids attended in ’00’s still has 1800-1900, graduates 450. Both have substantial music programs: concert, marching & jazz bands, orchestra, several choirs. Towns are about same size: my NJ district is much richer, but my hometown hisch benefits from involvement by prominent local college music dept. Both schools have ample sports teams [typical state championships enroll schs of 1000-4500 students], as well as well-devpd art & theatre pgms… [& both have wide curricula w/lots of electives, ample SpEd & AP pgms]. Bottom line: SIZE IS RIGHT.
I really get the issues that must be involved in running a 4500-student school. But what kind of thought went into pegging smaller-school size at 500? From my experience, 1-1.5k seems to be the sweet spot. I admire tremendously the efforts of a couple of districts to dovetail the scheds of 5 small schools sharing campus so as to form joint band & choir (what about orch?)… & especially thumb-up efforts at combining beg-adv in one group to make it work… but seems an uphill battle that would have to be tweaked annually. This is a bad legacy left by Gates/ Bloomberg, & needs to be overhauled.
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Some years back, Valerie Lee of the U of Mich wrote a paper concluding that school of 300 was too small due to limited curriculum; school of 3,000 plus too large due to student anonymity. School of 1200-1500 just right.
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I watched the principal of the school in which I currently serve, out or pure personal pique, excess (this is the New York City Department of Education’s euphemism for “laid off”) our music teacher —who could also, in classic scholastic fashion, teach math–and did.
Serving in this system requires constant compromising of one’s integrity. I’ve had about enough of it, and I think next year will have to be my last year in the employ of the NYCDOE>
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Far too many Trump types running (ruining) education.
I posted this on another thread, but it highlights this central problem very well — though John Merrow does it unwittingly.
Merrow supported the “shark tank” model of running education, which not only condones but actually applauds firing a principal on camera with no notice or reason given.
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Thanks, SomeDAM.
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Merrow is a master of irony, even though he does not realize it.
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It seems like a little context and fact-checking is in order here.
Many large, persistently dangerous, low-graduation-rate New York City high schools were closed by the state in the 90s, before Bloomberg and Klein controlled the DOE—these were schools that had graduation rates in the teens or twenties, and where violence against students and teachers were commonplace. It goes without saying that no one reading or commenting on this post would have sent their OWN child to the type of school that Columbus or Walton or Roosevelt or many others had become by the start of the Bloomberg mayoralty.
The big comprehensive HS that remain today—Francis Lewis, Midwood, Murrow, etc—have for decades themselves adopted something very similar to the small schools approach, splitting up into honors or speciality programs, usually with brutally competitive admissions and ruthless tracking.
European systems and Finland’s in particular take a much different approach to music and sports and other non-core subjects. Music education isn’t required in Finnish high schools, though it may be available as an elective. Children who are interested in performance must join a high-stakes audition for entry into one of about 90 Musiikkiopistos, special music schools covering ages 7-15. Only 39% of applicants are accepted. Similarly, Finnish schools have no competitive sports teams and in general offer far fewer extracurricular options than a large US high school.
I’m an actual New York City Department of Education traditional public school parent and I believe that there are plenty of high school and middle school options in every borough for the musically inclined student. What is lacking is general music education for elementary school students.
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I don’t think that teachers at the schools you mention would agree. Murrow, for example, is require to accept children with high scores, children with average scores, and children two years below grade level. The competition is for the highest band.
Arthur Goldstein (who is a regular reader here) teaches ELLs at Francis Lewis, not what you imply is elite competition. One again, Tim, necessary to remind that you are an Eva Moskowitz spokesperson.
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The fact that it is seemingly acceptable to sort and rank children within a school but not between them has always puzzled me.
Anyway, the point is that children in the lower tracks at Murrow might be better off at a smaller school where they would receive more attention and have access to the highest-level courses the school offers. Every available piece of evidence suggests the small schools are better than the big schools they replaced.
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So long as the small schools continue to operate like charters and exclude the kids they don’t want. The sped and ELL and “got to go.”
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The big school/small school debate is a distraction – for the most part.
We can’t lose sight of the reality: Our country is a plutocracy. The plutocrats want to mechanize and privatize education. They want to drown government in a bathtub and buy candidates who will do their will – courtesy of Citizens United.
Despite its heft, education is not a “system.” Children never have and never will flourish under standard curricula, standard assessments or “personalized learning” provided by machines. The irony is breathtaking, eh? “Personalized” online programs.
No, education is not a system. It is relationships between and among human adults and children who should care about each other, learn about beauty, learn to think critically and learn to express themselves. The education of children is not vocational training.
We have fallen for the notion that if we tweak the machine, refine the metrics, roll out the standards, make the schools larger or smaller, test the kids, assess the teachers – everything will eventually turn out just fine.
With some obvious exceptions, there are teachers all over America willing and ready to do wonderful things with kids, in big schools and small schools. We need to give them enough money to provide those experiences in small classes and freedom to respond to the needs of the actual little humans in their care, not some think-tank idea of children.
If we do that – and provide a living wage, health care and child care to parents – the rest of it will take care of itself.
I have quipped often before: The American approach to education is like believing we can fatten Hansel and Gretel by weighing them more often.
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The small schools that replaced the large high schools were completely unscreened, just like New York’s nonprofit open-admissions charter schools. When one of these unscreened schools had more applicants than seats, a random lottery was held to determine student assignment. The unscreened small schools served very comparable student populations to the comparison group.
When we consider a public school “good” what we are usually talking about is the result of a process that sorts students, and we don’t think twice about it.
Wealthy schools and districts sort on the basis of income and having the right skin color to buy a house and/or obtain a mortgage–yes, right now, here in 2018. Parents in these districts are willing to pay through the nose to benefit their own child and to have all those great clubs and extras, but when a plan is floated to let lower-scoring minority children into those well-resourced schools, yikes, look out. Even the bluest blue neighborhoods fight those plans to the death.
Within New York City, an entirely separate district–District 75–was created to take the most challenging special education cases off the traditional public schools’ hands. Extremely expensive private special education providers–few of them unionized, most of them utilizing non-traditionally certified educators–educate several thousand more, at public expense. We permit public schools to openly screen students into rigid, permanent tracks on the basis of an IQ test given at age four. We allow schools to turn away special education students requiring a self-contained or barrier-free settings–PS 321, for example, will not enroll such children. We allow our traditional public high schools to be tracked, with vastly different outcomes for kids in the honors classes vs. those not deemed worthy.
And everyone was fine with it and continues to be fine with it as long as it doesn’t upset the employment applecart. If you think that merely having to apply to a charter school or small high school constitutes a type of creaming, then how in the world does it make any sense at all to tolerate the extensive, overt sorting and ranking by wealth and assessment that goes on everywhere in the traditional public school environment?
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The small schools that replaced the large high schools were granted permission by the Klein Department of Education to exclude ELLS and special education. Read “Reign of Error” for documentation. I believe it was Clara Hemphill who nailed that one.
No lying, Tim, no repeating of falsehoods.
I know you speak for Eva Moskowitz, but why don’t you confine your remarks to blogs that support privatization?
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Your Eva Moskowitz obsession is unhealthy. I have no relationship with any charter school, any charter supporting organization, or anything to do with education reform—you are the one who is dealing in falsehoods here.
The small schools were given the option not to admit ELLs or SWDs for their first two years of existence in recognition of the fact that there was (and is) a shortage of teachers in those areas. The study acknowledges this and controls for it—it compares like to like.
https://www.mdrc.org/publication/frequently-asked-questions-about-mdrc-s-study-small-public-high-schools-new-york-city
Again, there was never any concern about Yonkers and New Rochelle and schools in Gowanus being overloaded with poor kids and ELLs and SWDs while Hastings and Bronxville and PS 321 had none. All of this was normal, acceptable, as American as apple pie. It was only when an alternative form of publicly funded and publicly regulated K-12 education appeared that people suddenly became very concerned about who was educating whose fair share of this and that. Perhaps we should be grateful to the charter sector for kick-starting an important conversation that never would have happened otherwise!
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Tim,
You have posted dozens of comments on this blog defending Success Academy. I am not obsessed with Eva. You are.
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“I have no relationship with any charter school, any charter supporting organization, or anything to do with education reform…”
Notice the present tense. If this is true, I would not be surprised if Tim lost his job when Families for Excellent Schools was disbanded. I hear some of their employees are organizing under a new name to continue promoting whatever their billionaire funders tell them to promote. I’m sure Tim will have a very soft landing.
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“The fact that it is seemingly acceptable to sort and rank children. . .
It is NEVER acceptable to sort and rank children, NEVER.
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Well Duane you’d better be sitting down when you do some research into how kids find their way into traditional public schools and tracks within public schools in the New York City metropolitan area and other parts of the country that are similarly segregated and stratified!
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No need to worry ’bout me on that account, Tim. I thoroughly understand that bogus and discriminatory practices occur on a daily basis throughout the education sector-almost all areas of it. That certainly doesn’t mean that I condone them or that they are just practices.
It just means that my work of attempting to get rid to the most egregious of those practices, that of the standards and testing regime malpractices that harm so many will probably never be done. Which then means you all will keep hearing from me when I see, hear or read about such instances of discrimination. Nothing more nor nothing less.
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Duane,
You’d better be sitting down when you hear that once again Tim is trying to deceive about what happens in NYC public schools to justify the sorting and dumping at his very favorite charter schools.
As Tim no doubt is well-aware, the majority of students attend their local neighborhood elementary school, with school zones that were drawn generations ago. Many of those schools were once avoided by middle class parents, but now — without changing a single district line — they are primarily affluent. And in fact, Mayor de Blasio is the first Mayor in a long time to try to figure out how to change those long established school district lines. But despite Tim’s lie, there has NEVER been a child with special needs who was told that the public school system in that district would absolutely not accommodate them and that they would have to find a charter school somewhere that would take them.
I’d like to say that Tim’s very favorite charter CEO — who now runs a system that is larger than many small cities — ALSO accommodates every special needs child the way that public schools do. But of course, they simply kick most of them to the curb as fast as they can. But hey, they take a few high performing kids with mild special needs so the fact they dump any who get in the way of their “99% success” rates should be ignored.
But it shouldn’t surprise you that Tim is misleading in his posts. After all, does ANYONE believe a person who would say:
“Betsy DeVos has the talent, commitment, and leadership capacity to revitalize our public schools and deliver the promise of opportunity.”
Tim says that the person who said this never tells a lie. Tim believes that it is the person who knows the greatness of Betsy DeVos who should be deciding which kids are worthy and which are not.
After all, when it comes to sorting and ranking kids, Tim puts all his faith in the person who believes Betsy DeVos is great for kids.
Who better to sort and rank children than Betsy DeVos biggest fan?
Tim always tries to pretend that NYC elementary schools all sort and rank kids because he needs to justify why the person who adores Betsy DeVos runs so many elementary schools that do.
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Your analysis makes sense NYCpsp.
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Contrary to your assertion re: Finnish public ed, 2-4hrs/ wk of music is required curriculum for ages 6-12, continuing as elective thereafter. Age 6-9 is taught by classroom teachers, who have received 270 hours of mandatory music education as a part of their preservice degree. Age 10-12 (& electives in hisch) are taught by music specialists. Music is commonly offered in daycares & preK’s as well, often thro partnerships w/the specialty schools you mention. http://musicaustralia.org.au/2017/06/finlands-music-education-system-how-it-works/
Granted those govt-supported arts schools are competitive– but so is entry into a public hisch band/ orch here.
Competitive sports are integrated into Finnish public life. Finland has a huge community network of sports clubs for children. More than 10% of the general population are volunteers in sports clubs!
https://finland.fi/life-society/finland-the-frontrunner-in-sports-and-fitness/
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When I visited Finnish schools, every principal showed off their music groups first.
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That isn’t contrary to what I wrote at all. Thank you for confirming that music education is NOT required in the Finnish equivalent of high school and that the Finns have concluded having sports and other extracurriculars provided outside of school is a superior arrangement.
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Music education is not required in high schools here, either. It is an elective, as it is in the equivalent of Finnish high schools. The point is to make it available.
Context is everything. The US does not have Finland’s long tradition of widespread volunteer-led community sports clubs. We do have a long tradition of communities brought together around district sports [& music] events. Breaking up district enrollment into two- & three-tiered school systems inevitably curtails their availability, & diminishes the community.
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Surprised no one here has mentioned the connection between large schools and violence/mass shootings. Should be a top concern.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0362331917300241
“Our findings are consistent with previous literature indicating that smaller schools are less likely to experience acts of mass violence. Additionally, our results suggest that transitioning from a smaller, more supportive school to a larger, more anonymous school may exacerbate preexisting mental health issues among potential school shooters. The results of this study have significant implications for educational policy reform.”
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I’m sure that a large school might be difficult for a student with pre-existing mental health issues, but it’s odd to correlate mass shootings with large schools vs. small schools.
After all, the rise of mass shootings in schools is a recent phenomenon. When Columbine happened in 1999 it was a shocking act. Perhaps there had been shootings before, but they were incredibly rare.
With years of “education reform” since the Columbine shooting, we now have so many school shootings that they barely register anymore.
Now, I’m not blaming education reform for this, but I wonder if intentionally warehousing disproportionate numbers of kids with special needs in underfunded public schools while charter schools — and perhaps other “small schools” — are free to cherry pick the easiest to teach has led to overworked school staff in larger schools who miss the warning signs for these shootings.
After all, there were not nearly as many of these shootings before the small school movement.
My guess is that smaller schools work better because they get disproportionate funding — because the point of “small” is to EXCLUDE.
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