Bill Phillis was Deputy Commissioner for the State of Ohio. He is now retired. He is a master of school finance and is a principled believer in public education, free and open to all. He founded the Ohio Coalition for Equity and Adequacy to track school finance and equitable practices. He has followed the theft of public money by charter frauds in Ohio for many years.
He writes here:
”
Betsy DeVos: School choice is a fundamental right
“The common school system in America was established as a public good, not a private consumable. The primary purpose of the system is to create and maintain a democratic society governed by public policies that promote an equitable social order. Horace Mann, the father of the great American common school said that education is the great equalizer of the conditions of men. He promoted public education as the balance wheel of social machinery.
“The constitutional provisions for education in nearly every state mandate and enable the establishment and maintenance of the common school system.
“Enactment of No Child Left Behind (NCLB) at the beginning of the 21st century was an affront to these state constitutional provisions. Congress, in defiance of the states’ responsibility for public education, in a frenzied effort to “fix” perceived problems in the system, passed NCLB. This legislation usurped the rights of states regarding education and local decision-making prerogatives. NCLB intruded into every classroom in America. The education community, being loyal soldiers, implemented the provisions knowing full well the mandates of the legislation were not in the best interest of students. NCLB has not improved student achievement and has diminished many critical educational opportunities. It, by design, has opened the choice-gate incredibly wide.
“In 2015, Congress modified NCLB with passage of the Every Student Succeeds Act (ESSA.) But ESSA is of little help in repairing the damage caused by NCLB.
“Now comes Betsy DeVos. Education Secretary DeVos, in a major public address, recently stated there is no such thing as society. Further she said in the same address, it isn’t about school systems-it is about individual students, parents and families. In another address to the Brookings Institution, DeVos pronounced that school choice is a “fundamental right.” She seems to have no understanding of or appreciation for the purpose of the public school system.
“The school choice movement of this era is the antithesis of the common school movement of the 1800s. It challenges Ohio’s constitutional provision for a thorough and efficient system of common schools. Vouchers, tuition tax credits, education savings accounts, academic distress commissions (Youngstown Plan) and charter schools, all set aside the education provisions of the Ohio Constitution.
“School children have a constitutional right to participate in the Ohio common school system. Parents have a right to opt their children out of the common system but the state has no obligation to pay for their choice.
“DeVos may have a point that parents have a fundamental right to choose an alternative to the constitutionally-mandated common school; however, parents do not have the right to tax funds to pay for that choice.”
William L. Phillis | Ohio Coalition for Equity & Adequacy of School Funding | 614.228.6540 | ohioeanda@sbcglobal.net| http://www.ohiocoalition.org
Ohio E & A, 100 S. 3rd Street, Columbus, OH 43215
Diane Ravitch's blog 
Please stop with the “Betsy DeVos doesn’t understand” tropes. She understands well enough. Just because someone else doesn’t value what you value, doesn’t mean they don’t understand. (Gosh, if they did understand, then they would agreed with me! Not.)
Ms. DeVos is all about creating a system that favors the rich because they know better what this country needs. It needs schools that generate profits from public coffers and it needs well-trained and compliant workers who do not think for themselves.
She also desires the Kingdom of God to be created here on Earth and, of course, she knows better than you what that Kingdom would be like. Let’s see: God is King and you are a slave and you had better worship Him, or else.
Beat me to it. I spent too many of the Obama years thinking he didn’t “understand”. If only we could “educate” him, things would change. Finally, I woke up. DeVos is no different, except her reason for not “understanding”. Just because she plays the dumb bimbo role doesn’t mean she’s stupid. She gets it just fine. Fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again.
Dienne and Steve,
I agree that Obama and Arne understood full well the damage they were doing. It was all about raising money for the next campaign.
DeVos can’t be bought by the hedge funders. She has more money than most of them. She is a true believer, an ideologogue. Her belief system is founded in religion and unshakeable. She can’t be bought and she can’t be moved. When she looks for metaphors to explain her beloved school choice, she always turns to the market, comparing schools to taxis or food trucks. She truly seems ignorant of the difference between a public service and a consumer good.
Like a lot of wealthy conservatives, DeVos thinks she has the right to impose her views on others. Trump gave her the grandest platform in the nation heading the DOE. She believes she has a “divine right” to spread her superior vision of capitalism on our school children.
The WEALTHY are ENTITLED. The ENTITLED think they should make the rules and have more of everything than those who they perceive to be below them. They are privileged.
So … now we have TYRANNY by Corporations as well as the Russians. OMG. Bet George Washington is turning in his grave. Bet our founders are doing the same.
“Betsy Overstands”
Betsy doesn’t understand
But stands above us all
Atop her money stack that’s grand
From where we all look small
I disagree with the statement, that Ms. DeVos does not understand the public school system. I believe that she has a thorough understanding of publicly-operated government-run schools. Her experience and statements show exactly that she understands all too well, how some (NOT ALL) publicly-run schools are failing our nation’s children, and failing the citizens who pay for the failing schools.
“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”
Sun-Tzu
Seriously, Charles, take your mouth elsewhere. 90% of students in the U.S. attend and graduate from public schools. In fact, an awful lot of immigrants come to the U.S. specifically to get a chance to enroll their kids in U.S. public schools. To whatever extent public schools are “failing” kids, it’s because of the rephormy antics of you and your rephormy friends who are killing good education for the vast majority of kids in this country. I’d like to think you have no idea what you’re talking about, but you get upset when I call you ignorant, so the only other choice is evil. I’m surprised Diane has put up with your sorry self this long, especially this particular post.
Geeze. You really are clueless!
Charles isn’t clueless. He’s a school charterization/voucherization/privatization ideologue who loves to run off at the keyboard about his skewed beliefs.
Cross-posted here https://www.opednews.com/Quicklink/Bill-Phillis-Betsy-DeVos-in-Best_Web_OpEds-Alternative_Congress_Policies_Public-171019-897.html#comment676827
with this comment, which has a link to this site.
“The NCLB left all children behind the money -making schemes of profiteers. A new book by the eminent Harvard testing expert Daniel Koretz says in no uncertain terms that NCLB test-based accountability was a failure that seriously damaged American education. It is titled “The Testing Charade: Pretending to Make Schools Better.” The high-stakes testing mandated by NCLB and now the Every Student Succeeds Act, produced, in Professor Koretz’s words, score inflation, cheating, and teaching to the tests. Any “gains” are an illusion, because they represent test prep, not learning.”
“Howard Ryan, writing in Monthly Review, analyzes the sources of support for corporate reform and privatization. click here “Over the past three decades, public schools have been the target of a systematic assault and takeover by corporations and private foundations. The endeavor is called “school reform” by its advocates, while critics call it corporate school reform.”
NICE, Susan. And thank you.
You are welcome. I publish many of Diane’s posts at Oped where I write: http://www.opednews.com/author/author40790.html
…here is my series links
http://www.opednews.com/author/series/author40790.html
Q “School children have a constitutional right to participate in the Ohio common school system. Parents have a right to opt their children out of the common system but the state has no obligation to pay for their choice.
“DeVos may have a point that parents have a fundamental right to choose an alternative to the constitutionally-mandated common school; however, parents do not have the right to tax funds to pay for that choice.”
END Q
This man does not know what he is talking about.
In a case concerning the Cleveland, Ohio public schools, the Supreme Court ruled, that parents not only have the right to withdraw their children from failing public schools, but the state must pay for their choice, through a voucher plan.
see
“School children have a constitutional right to participate in the Ohio common school system. Parents have a right to opt their children out of the common system but the state has no obligation to pay for their choice.
https://www.casebriefs.com/blog/law/constitutional-law/constitutional-law-keyed-to-sullivan/separation-of-powers-constitutional-law-keyed-to-sullivan-constitutional-law-law/zelman-v-simmons-harris/
Charles,
Bill Phillis has devoted his life to education. You have devoted only your mouth. He knows far more than you about schools, education, finance, equity. Etc.
Don’t be so fast to run your mouth.
If he is so knowledgeable, why has is not aware, that what he says is not possible, has been occurring in Ohio, for over 15 years?
Parents in Ohio, can withdraw their children from the publicly-operated schools, and enroll them in non-public schools, and receive payment in the form of vouchers.
Bill Phillis knows what’s happening in Ohio, far better than you. He knows it is a travesty that harms children, not only those that get the voucher, but the vast majority that don’t want a voucher or a charter.
He is looking out for the children. Who are you looking out for? Jesus? Moses? Mohammad? Wiccans? The profiteers? William Lager of ECOT? David Brennan of White Hat? You sure aren’t looking out for the good of the country. Great nations have great public schools.
I do not understand. Mr. Phillips says Q “parents do not have the right to tax funds to pay for that choice”
And then you say that he knows that Ohio parents are receiving voucher payments.
I do not see it as a “travesty”, for the families who choose to remain in the publicly-operated schools. I have lived in Columbus, OH, and Massillon, OH, and the publicly-operated schools in these towns were meeting the expectations of the community.
I am not “looking out” for any one individual or group.
As the grandson and brother of public school teachers, I am a strong supporter of public schools. I have never said otherwise.
If you are a great supporter of public schools, you have certainly fooled me.
You dishonor the legacy of the teachers in your family by urging the diversion of public funds to religious schools.
If you have been fooled, then it is because you choose to be fooled. I support excellent public schools. The schools in my community are some of the finest in the nation. I also support parental empowerment, and providing parents with the resources to make the best educational decisions for their children.
No one sees any problem with public tax money going to students who attend religiously-operated universities and colleges. I have no objection to providing public funds to students who attend religiously-operated K-12 schools.
You want your tax money and mine to go to religious schools that teach children that all the science they need to know is in the Bible? You want children taught by “teachers” who never went to college?
We disagree.
Q You want your tax money and mine to go to religious schools that teach children that all the science they need to know is in the Bible? You want children taught by “teachers” who never went to college?
We disagree.
END Q
This is not what I wish. What you postulate, is not in the best interests of our nation’s children.
There are schools run by religious organizations, which teach various topics, like creationism. If parents choose to enroll their children, in these schools, then I have no problem with it.
I do not support the concept of school teachers, not having solid academic credentials, that is absurd.
As I said, you support public funding of religious schools that teach Biblical “science” and have NO professional qualifications for teachers. Many such schools use a textbook series that teach the Biblical approach to history and mathematics.
That is a prescription to get us ready for the 17th century. It will produce a generation of children who are ignorant of science, history, civics, and mathematics.
While I concur with various points in Bill Phillis’ piece, I feel that Betsy DeVos has a CLEAR understanding of the nature of public schools as many posts suggest. She has a much broader agenda of oligarchal control (mixed with a conservative religious stew) and just doesn’t care. We have long been experiencing asymmetrical attacks from the forces of privatization, and their efforts continue to bear prolific quantities of “poisonous fruit” at our peril.
@Tim, I am in agreement. Ms. DeVos has a clear and precise understanding of the public education system in this nation. Her agenda is clear. Her tactics have changed and modified over the past months. I do not see a possibility of any serious federal push for school choice, the support is just not there. The battles will be carried out state by state. As more states choose to adopt and/or expand choice, more states will be certain to follow.
Personally, I think she knows exactly what she’s doing. She’s destroying public education!
Um, why can’t a parent choose public schools? For her to be all about choice, she proposes taking away a choice that 90% of parents have already made. Our kids are not at home twiddling their thumbs and wringing their hands from boredom and despair… they are in the schools their parents have CHOSEN. The public ones.
This woman makes my head hurt.
@Should I go: Parents choose public schools, of course. Wealthy parents can choose to live in neighborhoods with excellent public schools.
In Indiana, the state with the largest school choice program in the nation, about 97% of families choose to attend the publicly-operated schools, and decline to accept financial help for alternate schooling. This is great! It shows that 97% of families are satisfied with the public schools, and the education that their children are receiving.
And yet you would pull funding from those schools that 97% of families are choosing and divert it to schools that serve the other 3%. How do you justify this?
Q And yet you would pull funding from those schools that 97% of families are choosing and divert it to schools that serve the other 3%. How do you justify this? END Q
This is exactly what is happening in the Hoosier State.
The state “pulls” funding from the publicly-operated school system, for the 3% of families who choose to opt-out. The per-pupil funding for these students is removed from the school system. AND- The students also are removed from the public school system. This is exactly what would happen, if the students moved to another state.
The per-pupil funding for the 97% which remain in the publicly-operated school system is unchanged.
This is entirely justified, because the publicly-operated school system is no longer delivering educational services to the absent students.
This is how voucher programs work, and it is entirely justifiable.
The students who opt-out, leave the system, and the (public) school system forfeits the money that the (public) school system no longer needs, because the students have departed. (whether the students go to a non-public school, or depart the state, the results are the same).
Charles, please stop telling us how much you love public schools. You love vouchers and you love defunding public schools.
Good for you. You support what you ‘think’ is good. But the truth is a different ballot wax, and your personal preferences are of little use. The public schools , which are the main toad to income equality are under assault, as the budgets for them get thinner and thinner, and the money goes to support this so-called ‘choice.”
If people want their child to go to a religious or private school, that is fine…let them pay, but do not take the money needed for WE THE PEOPLE to educate our kids.
Charles, you THINK it is justifiable but that is just YOUR ONE opinion and not many people share that opinion. In fact, most Americans have no opinion.
Most Americans unfamiliar with school choice, poll finds
“All told, 58 percent of respondents say they know little or nothing at all about charter schools and 66 percent report the same about private school voucher programs, according to the poll conducted by The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research.”
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/americans-unfamiliar-school-choice-poll-finds
I think the focus of the resistance should be on the failure of school choice in countries that have already tried it and walked away from that failed concept. We need to do a better job educating the public about the difference between real private schools and public schools and the difference between corporate charters and public schools and the difference between virtual charters and public schools and the difference between vouchers and public schools. Lay out the pros and cons in a steady daily stream.
And, Charles, everything you think just like everything I think is an individual’s opinion. You are NOT the VOICE of a nation, and you are certainly not the voice of reason.
Q You love vouchers and you love defunding public schools. END Q
Do not tell me what I “love”. I support giving parents/students the option to select the appropriate educational experiences for each individual student. If this can be obtained at a publicly-operated school, then fine. No problem at all.
As to “defunding”, I support providing adequate funding, to finance education of each individual student. If a student departs a public school, either to attend a non-public school, or to attend a public school in a different location, then I do not support continuing to provide funding for absent students. When a family relocates, for any reason, the publicly-operated school, is no longer entitled to receive funding for the absent student(s).
How can any reasonable person support providing funding for empty seats?
Charles,
I judge you by your words. Your words are clear. You want me to pay for evangelical schools that teach creationism as science. You want me to pay for schools that teach that women are inferior to men. You want me to pay for schools that teach that “my” religion is better than yours. As an American citizen, I will fight it tooth and nail. I will fight it no matter what court decisions you cite. Courts change their views. I will stand by what is best for America.
Q You want me to pay for evangelical schools that teach creationism as science. You want me to pay for schools that teach that women are inferior to men. You want me to pay for schools that teach that “my” religion is better than yours. As an American citizen, I will fight it tooth and nail. I will fight it no matter what court decisions you cite. Courts change their views. I will stand by what is best for America. ENDQ
I think you are not getting my meaning clearly. I support publicly-financed education. Education is a clear moral imperative, and it is cost-effective. I support giving parents more control over the education of their children. Naturally, this involves empowering parents with direct financial control of their education dollars. Just like, when a college student gets a BEOG, the student/family makes decisions on how to spend the BEOG.
With a school-choice scheme, some parents may elect to send their children to religiously-operated schools. (This happens at the college level, when a student attends Brigham Young University, or Notre Dame, or a university operated by some other religion). I have never heard you, or any other person here, object to their tax dollars underwriting a student attending a religious university, where creationism is taught. Do you object to public money financing a student being trained as a minister of the (Christian) gospel?
With the current conservative supreme court, do you really think that Zelman (2002) or Trinity (2017) will be reversed?
Public tax dollars are currently subsidizing students at Islamic universities in the USA. Islam teaches female circumcision, so that women cannot experience orgasm. Islam teaches that the function of women is only to bear sons for her husband. Islam teaches that husbands may chastise (beat) their wives (up to 4). Islam teaches that after a divorce, children are the property in perpetuity of the husband’s family. Have you personally done anything to stop federal tax dollars subsidizing students at Islamic universities in the USA? Or is your only objection to subsidizing K-12 at Islamic Madrasses?
Public tax dollars are financing education at religiously-based colleges, universities, and K-12 schools all over the USA.
And how are you qualified to decide what is best for America? Do you know more than the Supreme Court? Many people thought that Brown v. Board of Education (1954) was not best for America.
I know that science taught from the Bible is not science.
I know that children taught science from the Bible are not prepared for careers in engineering or other science-related fields.
I know that the Bible is a religious document and has many ethical and moral guidelines for religious people of the same faith.
It is not however a textbook for science, history or math. Nor is any other religious document. Not the Koran. Not the Book of Mormon.
What I don’t know is why I waste my time responding to you.
Diane, I don’t know why you waste your time responding to Charles, either.
He persists in making false equivalencies, such as equating K-12 schools (which almost all children in this country are legally required to attend, at least through age 16) with colleges, which nobody is required to attend. And since, presumably, the students attending college are adults, they can choose to subject themselves to religious beliefs and indoctrination, which young kids cannot.
Among other things which he twists and gets wrong.
He’s a zealot, let’s face it.
You have far more patience with him than I could ever have.
Thanks, Zorba. He is a foil. But tiresome.
If people want their children to have a religious education, that’s their right but the public doesn’t have to pay for it.
I have written this dozens of times. I may have done it for the last time.
Well, I wouldn’t blame you if you did stop responding to him, or even banned him. It’s what I would have done, but I don’t run a blog like yours, nor do I have the patience to do so.
But, I guess, OTOH, it might be useful for anyone new to this blog to see the arguments against Chuckie’s beliefs.
On the other, other hand, he’s beyond getting on the nerves of many of us who have been here awhile.
I have also wondered if he is being paid by some pro-charter and/or pro-voucher entity.
I’m sure he would deny this, but then, wouldn’t anyone being paid to be a propagandist deny it?
The more Diane lets Charles blab on in his comments while Charles is proved wrong repeatedly, the more Diane educates readers that are here to learn the truth from facts and not the flawed and misguided opinion of one individual who drank the poison Kool aide offered by the lying, misleading corporate reformers of public education.
Have you noticed that most if not all of the flapping mouths of corporate reformers refuse to debate this topic in a logical debate forum and when they do talk about it they control the environment so the only voices heard are theirs?
Charles seems to be one of the few who doesn’t know that an agenda based on lies and misinformation is wrong from the start and will never work if that agenda is achieved. If he knew the truth, he wouldn’t be here constantly repeating what he thinks with no substance to support what he thinks.
I disagree. In states which have school choice/vouchers, if the parents choose to send their children to a religiously-operated school, which has agreed to redeem their voucher, then the public DOES have to pay for education. Do you have any information, indicating otherwise?
And education is education, whether K-12 or college or trade school or post-graduate. Public spending is public spending, whether at K-12 or college.
I can assure you, that I am a private citizen, and not in the employ of any agency or group. It takes a measure of courage to post ideas which are at variance with your own. And it is no fun, just preaching to the choir, in an echo chamber.
Q I know that science taught from the Bible is not science.
I know that children taught science from the Bible are not prepared for careers in engineering or other science-related fields.
I know that the Bible is a religious document and has many ethical and moral guidelines for religious people of the same faith.
It is not however a textbook for science, history or math. Nor is any other religious document. Not the Koran. Not the Book of Mormon.
END Q
We are in agreement. The Holy Bible, is not a scientific text. Anyone who seeks science in a religious text, is not going to find it.
There are people who believe that Bible is literally true. I am not one of them.
No one is going to learn science, history or mathematics in its pages.
None of the other religious tomes you cite, are science texts either.
Nevertheless, religious organizations operate schools, which teach these subjects.
Many people enroll their children in Roman Catholic schools, who are not Catholic. Atheists go to religiously-operated schools, too.
“The education community, being loyal soldiers, implemented the provisions (of NCLB) knowing full well the mandates of the legislation were not in the best interest of students.”
From my experience this is BS!
Many teachers I knew protested but due process does not protect a teacher who defies administration and administrators were ordered to implement NCLB but even some of the principals and VPs protested. And the site administrators who sided with the teachers retired early, were fired, or quit and found jobs in other school districts. One VP even ost her administrative position for dragging her feet and offering support for teachers, and she had to return to the classroom to teach English again for a few more years until she was eligible to retire. What did she do? The Assistant Superintendent of SEcondary schools gave her a list of teachers causing the most trouble and her walking orders were to manufacture evidence and fire those teachers. I was on that list. She didn’t do what she was told. No teacher on the list was fired. But she lost her VP job.
The district I worked in had a revolving door for administrators during that period of time where rank and punish tests ruled. We lost a lot of good VPs.
I did not witness a blind, obedient, education community of loyal soldiers. I witnesses top management playing dirty pool in a plugged up toilet.
If a teacher dared to defy orders from above, they could lose their job. Due process does not protect teachers who refuse to follow orders.
In addition, in combat, those so-called “loyal soldiers” often shoot ass-hats in the back or frag them (pull the pin and toss a grenade in their tent late at night) to get rid of them. In combat, rules like NCLB are ignored by combat vets that do not want to die because of the stupidity of some idiot thousands of miles away giving them orders that will get them wounded or killed.
Not all schools were affected by NCLB. Schools serving the children of affluent parents ignored the test-prep curriculum knowing that their students would pass the high stakes tests with ease. This made these schools even more desirable and exacerbated the economic divide.
“Betsy Understands”
Betsy understands
That grizzly bear’s a threat
Without a gun in hand
The teacher needs a net
@ Charles:
Q
Public tax dollars are currently subsidizing students at Islamic universities in the USA. Islam teaches female circumcision, so that women cannot experience orgasm. Islam teaches that the function of women is only to bear sons for her husband. Islam teaches that husbands may chastise (beat) their wives (up to 4). Islam teaches that after a divorce, children are the property in perpetuity of the husband’s family.
ENDQ
Please stick to what you think you know regarding EDUCATION in discussions on this site. Everything you stated above about the Islamic faith mirrors all the propagandist coversations I’ve had with others like you who get all your information about Islam and Muslims from Fox News or the 700 Club. Get in your car and drive down your PUBLIC streets until you get to your PUBLIC library and check out a book or two. If you feel so led, visit a mosque on a Friday afternoon and meet with someone (maybe even a WOMAN who is educated, employed, speaks English, has never been beaten by her husband, and even has a daughter or two). Ask questions instead of assuming you know everything about a people and their faith. Everything you just said is EXACTLY why we need public schools.
I’ll look for you next Friday.
@Should I go back in: I know what I am talking about. I lived in Saudi Arabia for one year. I was under Sharia law, I did not enjoy diplomatic immunity. I attended classes in Islam, at ARAMCO headquarters in Dammam. I do not get information about Islam from the sources you cite. I have read the Holy Qu’Ran (In English). I have studied Islamic texts. I have visited mosques. I attended an open house, at our local mosque, here in Alexandria VA. I have worked with Muslims, both here in the USA, and abroad. I have studied the Hadiths (sayings of the prophet, PBUH).
I have discussed Islam, with our local Imam. I have discussed Islam, with an Islamic chaplain, in the Army.
I have conducted classes on Islamic literacy. I have written articles on Islam.
I do not know “everything” about Islam or Muslims, that is absurd.
And what do my posts about Islam, have to do with public schools? I cannot be certain, but I would wager that there is very little being taught about Islam, in America’s public schools.
I don’t know if it’s something in human nature, but it seems sometimes that the more things improve, the more people complain. We live in a country that does not treat healthcare as a right. It’s not that difficult to imagine a parallel universe in which, because things played out differently, Americans had no right to a free, sound, basic education. If you traveled to that parallel universe and described the public education system that we have, it would sound like the stuff of fantasy. It’s an astonishing achievement, really. Yet over and over, we hear “the public schools suck.”
There is no right to education. See San Antonio Independent School District v. Rodriguez (1973) https://www.oyez.org/cases/1972/71-1332
I think you mean to say there’s no federal constitutional right to education.
I did not say that. The Supreme Court said that. There is no federal constitutional right to an education.
I don’t understand your response. You wrote that there is no right to education. I replied that you should have said there is no federal constitutional right to education. You responded by saying you did not say what I said you should have said. I think that’s obvious: If you had said it, I wouldn’t have had any need to tell you that you should have said it.
The distinction is important. It’s wrong to say, as you did, that “there is no right to education.” Because people in many (most? all?) states do have a right to education.
Do you understand?