Betsy DeVos asked the superintendent of the Grand Rapids public schools to bring together a group of School Superintendents. That is, people who actually work in public schools, a sector previously viewed by her as hostile territory. She has publicly described public schools as “dead ends,” so she must have thought she was condescending to meet with a bunch of losers.
Here is a report about the meeting.
The Superintendents told her what they wanted. None mentioned school choice. Which is too bad because that is the only subject she cares about.
Diane Ravitch's blog 
What would you expect from a group of people, who work in the public school system? I cannot imagine any of them, suggesting that the secretary of education, assist in breaking up their monopoly.
I believe that the SecEd has a duty and a responsibility to dialog with the leadership of the publicly-operated school systems, where over 90% of America’s school children attend.
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Ironically, I am reading Ron Chernow’s “Titan” on John D. Rockefeller, and I’m in the chapter titled “Conspiracy.” Not sure I’m seeing many similarities between oil refinery cartel and the education industrial trust, but those superintendents and their teaching underlings must be living in some fine houses.
More seriously, I think you have full agreement that the Secretary of Education should be meeting regularly with public education leaders. These meetings are probably far more rare than they should be, and I’m hopeful that there is truly a respectful dialogue.
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Maybe you should start a charter school and file a Section 2 Sherman Act claim against “the public school system.”
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Charles,
Huh? What monopoly? Public Schools are NOT a monopoly. Charters and vouchers are indeed monopolies. Have you been awake?
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Publicly-funded and publicly-operated schools are unquestionably a monopoly. The states force individuals to pay taxes to fund these schools, and children are assigned to the school (run by the state) in the district, determined by the child’s residence.
Here is an article from The Hill (a leftist publication):
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/education/319920-want-to-reform-education-break-up-the-public-school-monopoly
QUOTE:
Public schools operate a monopoly, the researchers explain, and because of their immense power, “quality is held down while prices gravitate upwards.” This makes sense, because without competition, government schools have no incentive to cut costs or improve themselves. “If private schooling is introduced into the system, competitive pressures increase the incentives for both public and private schools to offer the highest-quality education at the lowest cost,” the authors wrote. “Private school choice programs could balance the distribution of power within the school system and families could exercise that power to pressure schools to improve. Moreover, private school choice programs can introduce price differentiation into the system of schooling. Price differentiation can entice new high quality schooling options to enter the market for education and can also communicate valuable information about what is valued by parents and children.”
END QUOTE
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Charles,
There are nearly 15,000 school districts in the U.S.
95% of them are run by elected school boards, which hire the superintendent, approve the budget and set policy.
They are akin to 15,000 mom-and-pop stores.
The states regulate them. The federal government inappropriately tries to control them.
They are not monopolies. They are independent, democratically governed school districts.
This is what democracy looks like.
You are spouting rightwing, corporatist ALEC nonsense.
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Listen to Diane!
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C’mon Chas up your game don’t lower it! “assist in breaking up their monopoly.”
Please describe to me how over 13,500 distinct local community school districts constitute a “monopoly”.
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Each individual school district is a monopoly unto itself. One(1) school district in each locale, collects taxes, and then disburses the money in their school system. The students may only attend the school, based on their residence. No one gets a choice to “opt out”, and get a rebate on what the school system would have spent (This is called a “voucher”).
In Hawaii, there is one(1) school district for the entire state.
When people are compelled to obtain services from an entity, with no recourse to drop out of the system, and select alternatives, that is a monopoly.
I am NOT saying that there is one(1) public school monopoly running all the public schools in this nation. That is absurd.
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Chas,
Are the police a monopoly? Only they get public funding.
How about the National Parks? Should we sell them off?
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And yet every country with a publicly supported education system has a public education system that looks like a non-profit monopoly because they are all national education systems instead of a community based, democratic, transparent one like in the U.S.
That is the major difference between the United States and the rest of the world. We divide up our schools so each community manages their own schools through a democratic process similar to the New England model of town halls.
Finland has one massive public education system with one large teachers’ unions with less than 25 publicly funded private schools in the country that are not allowed to be opaque and are not allowed to operate any different than all the public schools.
China has one huge public education system, and schools that do not perform well are not closed, the teachers are not fired. No, China sends in teams of experts from high performing schools to help the teachers in low performing schools to improve their teaching and class management methods
But in the United States, the fake lying, fraudulent extremist reformers, and the ignorant easy to manipulate supporters like Charles, label those community-based, democratic public schools that have been divided up among 50 states and into thousands of smaller school districts where parents/voters elect a school board to manage the schools and safeguard the children, a monopoly that must go.
What do those corporate reformers of public education really want – what they aren’t saying?
I’ll tell you what they don’t want and what they want. They don’t want a public school system that is managed through a democratic process. To them democracy is horrible.
These fake reformers want a profit driven, autocratic, ruthless, market-based corporate monopoly of all schools to compete with the rest of the world where U.S. parents will lose all of their rights as parents and the children become inmates who are punished and bullied to perform to make the corporate CEO look good to justify his/her bloated salary.
Here’s a prediction. Charles will ignore every fact I’ve made in this comment and focus on one: about him being one of the easy to manipulate supporters of the corporate reform of public education in the U.S. He will turn that one phrase that wasn’t even the whole sentence into an ad hominem attack.
That’s another tactic the extremists use. They repeatedly use ad hominem attacks on public schools and teachers and teachers’ unions without the facts to back the stereotypical attacks up and then act like victims of a bully when they are labeled while ignoring the facts that support the label.
Talking heads on extreme right talk shows use this tactic all the time. The Alt-Rights talking heads can insult others using stereotypes supported by few if any facts, but no one else can without being labeled a bully. They and their hard-core followers are the blazing fire calling a pond of water the fire.
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Chas,
No one is compelled to go to a public school as all states have laws that allow homeschooling. Now let’s take a look at your statement because all you need to do is to change one word and then what you claim in this post has more resonance. But as it is, you post definitely referred to the public school system as a monopoly.
“What would you expect from a group of people, who work in the public school system? I cannot imagine any of them, suggesting that the secretary of education, assist in breaking up their monopoly.”
Your “them” and “their” in the last sentence refers back to the people “work in the public school system?” So I have to assume that you mean that “the public school system is the “monopoly” to which you refer in the statement quoted.
If you you would have said “who work in “A” public school system?” instead of “THE public school system, then I can see your updated explanation. But as it is your updated explanation doesn’t hold.
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“If all men were angels, there would be no need for government”- James Madison
Governments are instituted among the citizens. to protect and secure our rights. This is why we have law enforcement, and a defense department. (To provide for the “common defense”).
The citizenry has established local police forces, county sheriffs, state police, the FBI, etc. to provide for law enforcement. Depending on the elasticity of your definitions, you could call these law enforcement entities “monopolies”. Citizens are permitted to protect their own property, at their own expense. Citizens may keep and bear arms, or purchase a home-alarm system, at their own discretion.
The citizenry has chosen to purchase various parcels of land, and establish a system of national parks. (see Article 4, clause 2, US Constitution: Clause 2: Property Clause. The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.)
Some states have state parks, the lands purchased by the states, and set aside for the common use of the citizens.
I am not advocating selling off our national park system.
The citizenry jointly owns airports, military bases, and other such real estate. Sometimes, the government may decide to liquidate some holdings. I used to work for the US Army reserve, at Fort Monmouth, NJ. The Army decided that Fort Monmouth was obsolete, and no longer necessary to the national defense, so the Army sold the property.
So what?
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Not sure what that response has to do with the price of tea in China.
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Didn’t see your response to Yvonne when I typed mine. The article you cite is from Teresa Mull of the Heartland Institute, which is by no means a “leftist” organization. In that article she quotes from the U of Ark Dept of Ed Reform report which is certainly not a “leftist” department.
So far two posts and two complete falsehoods, one about “gubmint monopoly of schools” and the other stating the Hill and by extension the article is of “leftist” origin.
You’re going to have to up your game dramatically when you come into Diane’s “living room”.
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“I cannot imagine any of them, suggesting that the secretary of education, assist in breaking up their monopoly.”
a monopoly?
a monopoly?
a monopoly?
Charles, your ignorance is monumental, and you are living example of someone who has been influenced (and programmed) by the conspiracy theory promoting Alt-Right media or Fox News.
If those superintendents of individual public school districts came from community-based, democratic, transparent, non-profit public school districts that are mostly financed with local fees and taxes, and eligible voters in those school districts vote for their democratic school boards, how is that a monopoly?
Monopoly means “the exclusive possession or control of the supply or trade in a commodity or service.”
So you are alleging, out of ignorance, that the public sector is a monopoly and that the public that supports that public sector with their taxes and votes is in control of a monopoly?
If those districts have elected school boards, then those superintendents were hired by those school boards that answer to parents and voters and those superintendents can be fired by those elected school boards.
Superintendents that work in traditional, community-based, democratic and transparent public schools are not corporate CEOs.
America’s public schools are guided mostly by state education codes that came about through the democratic process at the state level that are once again divided up into community public school districts where eligible voters have a say in who keeps watch on those schools to ensure a quality education and protect our children from abuse.
Public schools are a public service supported by the public, and those public dollars should not be flowing toward a future corporate education monopoly that might one day end up all owned by Wal-Mart or Pearson.
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Lloyd,
Charles is like an elderly befuddled uncle who prattles on. Sometimes he is annoying with his know-it-all comments, other times just babbling.
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I think of Charles as a human parrot passing on what he heard from his favorite fake news, Alt-Right conspiracy theory news source.
Charles, correct me if I’m wrong, has worked all over the world in one job after another and most of those jobs lasted about a year. That’s a lot of unending stress for decades.
“Starting a new job can be overwhelming. Between meeting new colleagues, mastering new skills, and tackling new responsibilities, your first three months might leave you feeling exhausted and burned out.”
http://idealistcareers.org/the-first-100-days-at-a-new-job/
Stress creates free radicals that kill brain cells.
Chronic stress makes you forgetful and emotional.
Stress creates a vicious cycle of fear and anxiety.
Stress halts the production of new brain cells.
Stress depletes critical brain chemicals causing depression.
Stress puts you at greater risk for mental illnesses of all kinds.
Stress makes you stupid.
Chronic stress shrinks your brain.
Stress lets toxins into your brain.
Chronic stress increases your risk of dementia and Alzheimer’s.
Stress causes brain cells to commit suicide.
Chronic stress contributes to brain inflammation and depression.
https://bebrainfit.com/effects-chronic-stress-brain/
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Please refrain from “ad hominem” attacks. There is nothing wrong with my mental faculties. Many engineers, work on short-term projects. I never claim to “know it all”. At my age, I am still learning.
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Charles,
I did not attack you. I attacked your sources. You live in a rightwing bubble and you treat extremist opinion as “fact.” I was a rightwingers for years. I know what they want. They want lower taxes. They want to obliterate any sense of social responsibility or social justice. They want a world dominated by the 1%, who own almost everything.
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My opinion of you is based on the evidence you provide in your comments. Mentally ill/damaged people seldom know it. Many of them think, guided by faulty logic, that everyone else has problems and they are the rational, normal one – except for those that agree with them.
For instance, think of #FakePresident Trump’s 32-percent support base in the GOP. Because that 32 percent represents about 20 million people (give or take a few million), Trump sees that as confirmation for what his damaged, sick, malignant narcissistic psycho mind thinks.
The minds of a person with a damaged brain like the Kremlin’s Agent Orange lives a life of denial and the foundation that built who they are as an adult was built when they were children.
Racism and hate are learned in the environment a child grows up in.
Then as adults, those damaged people, damaged as children, seek out information from sources they have convinced themselves are legitimate, reliable and honest. That is called confirmation bias.
Using the CATO institute as a source that confirms your bias proves my point, Charles.
I wonder if there are institutes out there where people can check themselves in and learn how to be taught to think rationally.
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“like an elderly befuddled uncle who prattles on.”
Hey now watch that. Some of my younger relatives might say the same about me!
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Publicly financed/operated school systems are unquestionably a monopoly. No dispute. See this article from the CATO institute:
https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/time-end-monopoly-education
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CATO is financed by the Koch brothers and other rightwing billionaires. Their opinion has no credibility except at ALEC.
Don’t waste time or space spouting corporatist nonsense here, Charles.
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Thank you for revealing where you get your Alt-Right, hate-filled. conspiracy-theory, manipulating, racist, fake information for weak/racist minds.
“The Cato Institute is an American libertarian think tank headquartered in Washington, D.C. It was founded as the Charles Koch Foundation in 1974 by Ed Crane, Murray Rothbard, and Charles Koch, chairman of the board and chief executive officer of the conglomerate Koch Industries.”
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Charles,
I hope you read the responses. It will help to enlighten you and maybe even help to make you smart and educated about the importance of one of our national treasures, OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS. Public schools don’t operate FOR PROFIT. Public School Teachers are certified, and the process of certification is not for the faint of heart or dummies.
Of course not all Public School Teachers are equal; neither is life. But I would rather our young’s experience with school NOT be like Donald Trump’s, Jared Kushner’s, and the other “so-called” elites.
Listen to Diane, Lloyd, Duane, open up your closed mind.
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Q So you are alleging, out of ignorance, that the public sector is a monopoly and that the public that supports that public sector with their taxes and votes is in control of a monopoly? END Q
I am alleging no such thing. I am stating this as an empirical fact.
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Charles,
What you call “fact” is rightwing opinion.
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I don’t think it is a right wing opinion. I think it is right-wing, fascist, autocratic propaganda to manipulate weak minded people who tend to lean toward racism, hate, and ignorance.
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“Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but everyone is not entitled to their own facts” – Daniel Patrick Moynihan
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Agreed, and the Kock brothers and all the organizations they have funded and launched often cherry pick the facts they like, create their own facts — fake facts — fake news —conspiracy theories — etc.
Including the CATO Institute.
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Chas,
Simon Blackburn the editor of the Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy, in his book “Truth” has come up with what I consider the best working definition of what truth is:
“The control of belief by fact.”
As it is, to say that “I am stating this as an empirical fact.” when there is so much disagreement (with only a few on the far right making that assertion) on whether in America the community public schools are supposed monopolies, and as Lloyd has pointed out above the illogical nature of that thought, I’d say your belief in that “gubmint monopoly” is not controlled by fact. Therefore is not a truth at all but an equivocation which you should rightly reject.
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The Free Press article gave no input from anyone in attendance by the DeVos spokesperson. Who attended and where they worked was provided. Since the meeting was held in western Michigan, I’m pretty confident she was in a safe crowd as many districts are beholding to the DeVos family for donations.
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I must correct myself. None of the superintendents in attendance were interviewed. Their names and schools were not disclosed. Typing at 4:44 is not my forte.
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Typical cheesy adminimal behavior to not let the taxpayers know what their supe adminimal is doing.
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Charles please explain how established Charter chains do not strive to infiltrate GA Ed committees and shut out competition. If public schools all closed and went private, the name of the game would be acquire, merge, and shut out start-ups. Those with the most cash for the GA win the game. There will be no “competing charter networks” as our governor Rauner fantasizes about. Once there’s two or three players left, they conspire to ratchet down services (choices) and jack up revenues (fees). That’s a monopoly too, Charles.
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I have hesitate to comment because I learn from Diane, Lloyd, Charles and many regular commenters but I cannot let this go unmentioned. I am sure I will be personally attacked as I have in the past. Charles, I do not agree with you but I understand your point. Lloyd, you are obviously well informed and in sink with Diane’s views. Since I am a conservative independent, I do not concur with the majority of you politically but generally do where education is concerned. However,
the level of mean rhetoric leveled at Charles is tantamount to that overused word—bullying. This is a textbook illustration of how to be mean and hateful. We no longer live in the age of “if you can’t say something nice–don’t say it’ but, sadly instead of addressing the idea, personal attacks seem to be the norm .
Between you both, this man has been described as ” monumental ignorant, weak minded, racist, being filled with hate full right wing fascist autocratic propagandist, mentally ill and damaged, living in a right wing bubble, human parrot, an elderly befuddled uncle who prattles on, a know-it-all, babbler, programed by the alt Right, under stress for multiple jobs across the world that will kill brain cells therefore causing decrease memory, being emotional. fearful, anxious, deplete of critical thinking, at risk for mental illness, stupid, and at risk for dementia due to brain inflammation and shrinking of the brain” I do not know if YOU know this man personally and professionally–I do not. Are YOU psychologists? How can YOU judge him? Do you realize that you are also making horrible comments about millions of unknown Americans you disagree with?
Charles, I apologies for the sad level of discourse you have been subjected to in this blog and can only hope that this blog stops attacking commenters personally and sticks to issues and ideas as it used to..
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April,
Charles has been welcome to comment here, although I have discouraged him from posting 10-15 times a day. Anyone on this site who quotes rightwing sources as authority opens themselves up to criticism. This is a blog devoted to the improvement and support of public schools. It is a site devoted to our democratic heritage of public education for all. Charles chooses to post here and he chooses to attack the public schools. If he doesn’t like the criticism of his statements that are hostile to public schools, he wouldn’t be here. The fact that he continues to post comments defending the privatization movement suggests that he is not as offended as you are.
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One slight correction: I have never attacked publicly-operated schools, and I never will. I am the grandson, nephew, and brother of public-school teachers. I am certified to teach (Substitute) in Fairfax County public schools.
I support a “mix” of publicly-funded k-12 schools in this nation, similar to the “mix” of publicly-funded university education.
That is all I have ever supported.
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Charles,
It is true that you do not “attack” public schools. But you advocate that public money be diverted away from public schools to support religious schools and private schools of every kind. That will mean less money for public schools, less ability to meet the needs of the children that the private and religious schools reject, and the guaranteed undermining of public education.
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Charles said, “One slight correction: I have never attacked publicly-operated schools,”
This is where Charles is wrong AGAIN.
He has repeatedly attacked those community-based, democratic, transparent, non-profit, traditonal public schools every time he calls them a government monopoly and then he has used evidence from the extremely biased, Koch brother’s CATO Institute (or from other Alt-Right lying conspiracy theories sites) to support that flawed logic.
The community-based, democratic public schools cannot be a government and/or a corporate monopoly. Impossible.
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Q But you advocate that public money be diverted away from public schools to support religious schools and private schools of every kind. That will mean less money for public schools, less ability to meet the needs of the children that the private and religious schools reject, and the guaranteed undermining of public education. END Q
I support giving parents more control over the education of their children. If the parents choose to direct the funding to non-public schools, this is just fine. This process occurs at the university level, and it is working similarly in states that have brought in school choice.
I dispute one claim. School choice (in Arizona) has resulted in an increase of funds available at the publicly-operated school system. In Arizona, the ESSA is provided to the parents in the amount of 90% of the per-pupil spending in the public school. The remaining 10% remains in public venue.
The public school loses the student, to the non-public school, but retains 10% of the per-pupil spending. This results in an increase of funding going to the publicly-operated school (per capita).
The increase in per-pupil spending (in the public arena) can be used to hire more teachers, decrease class sizes, purchase more technology, etc.
And another phenomenon occurs as well. With parents more involved in the selection and control of their education dollars, the spending will be adjusted more carefully. Almost everyone spends their own money more carefully and prudently than they spend someone else’s money. The quality of instruction going to the students in both the public and non-public schools will certainly increase.
And with results increasing, citizens/parents are much more likely to support tax increases, and increases in spending on education in both the public and non-public venues.
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Here is why this choice crap is flawed logic.
1st parents are not all equal and many of them do not have the necessary knowledge to make a choice between a publicly funded private or public school. Most of these parents base their choice on boasted lies and promises and they are easily fooled.
Any fool can be a parent.
Any educated parent that knew they were giving up their rights by moving their child to a publicly funded, often inferior, child abusing, secretive, fraudulent and lying corproate charter schools, probably does not know enough facts to make an educated decision.
We can not expect all parents to know what most teachers know.
CHOICE is misleading and like the toe in the door, if school choice becomes the norm, then CHOICE will follow everywhere else.
Choice over publicly funded private sector security as the local police force vs traditional public police.
The same for fire fighters.
The same for the public’s volunteer military.
The same for everything.
Why have laws that everyone must wear a seat belt while driving? Give everyone a choice to wear or not wear a seat belt.
Why have laws that there is no smoking in public? Give them the choice to kill others with 2nd hand smoke. Heck, non-smokers have a choice to stay home to avoid the smokers.
Why have laws that punish drunk drivers? Give drivers the choice to drink and drive with no punishment.
Why obey any laws? Give CHOICE a chance. You want to rob a bank. Go ahead. No punishment.
Why force corporations to produce safe products? Let corporations decide if they turn out drugs that might kill millions but who cares. Get rid of the FDA.
Let people decide if they want to be a doctor or lawyer without going to college. If someone wants the choice to be a surgeon without and training, let them go ahead and cut into you when you need surgery.
The public sector is there to protect us from the wild-west of choice that idiots and autocratic like the Koch brothers and anyone that thinks like them wants to do so they can pollute the environment all they want without government interference because that is the choice they want to make.
What if you don’t like your neighbor because their dog pisses on your grass and kills it? With choice, we could walk next door and shoot that neighbor and have no fear of punishment.
Giving up local community-based and controlled, democratic, transparent, non-profit public schools where eligible local voters vote in their own school board that has open meetings to the public, so some parents have a publicly funded choice to send their children to public-funded, secretive, private schools that don’t care what parents think is insanely flawed logic.
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Q Charles,
It is true that you do not “attack” public schools. But you advocate that public money be diverted away from public schools to support religious schools and private schools of every kind. That will mean less money for public schools, less ability to meet the needs of the children that the private and religious schools reject, and the guaranteed undermining of public education. END Q
We are in agreement on many points. I do not attack public schools, I am 100% in favor of public schools, and publicly-financed education. This includes K-12, Vocational/Technical, and university, and post-graduate. ALL education benefits society, society has a definite stake in supporting education.
I do advocate, giving parents more direct control over their educational spending. This control will result in the diminution of some (not all) funding going to (public) schools, that will experience a reduction in student population.
As is happening in Arizona, school choice has the potential to increase the funding going to the students in publicly-operated schools, on a per-capita basis. As long as the amount of the voucher is less than the amount that the school system would have spent (per-capita), the balance can remain in the publicly-operated system.
When competition is introduced to the publicly-operated school dynamic, all schools will be forced to improve, in order to attract students.
I assert, and I continue to assert, that school choice/vouchers will not undermine publicly-operated schools, but will do the exact opposite. School choice/vouchers will increase the amount of money going to the public schools (per-capita), and foster innovation and competition.
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Charles,
There are only two nations in the world that have followed your and Betsy DeVos’s proposals, Sweden and Chile, and both regret that decision. Sweden’s scores on international tests went into a nose dive following the adoption of free choice, Chile experienced extreme social segregation. Chilean students have taken to the streets to demand a return to universal public education, and a new government was elected to clean out the mess created the the Friedmanites.
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I am not advocating that the USA introduce school choice/vouchers (at the federal level) . Schooling should be a local concern. I am strongly in favor of each individual state, bringing in school choice. What works in Delaware may not work in Idaho.
Indiana has the highest participation, only 3%. The parents who are choosing to opt out of the public school system, are satisfied with their choices.
The examples of foreign nations do not necessarily relate to this country. Fortunately, with 50 states, there are 50 laboratories.
As more states view what is happening in states like Indiana and Arizona, choice is certain to spread to more states.
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Advocating that each state decides on vouchers and school choice will not work without campaign finance reform that limits how much money is donated to candidates and there must be total transparency of all campaign contributions so the voters will know where the money is coming from.
For instance, no more local school board elections where the billionaires (from mostly out of state) donate millions to the candidates that will support their ALEC legislation and agendas while the local pro-public school candidates only have a few thousand dollars to pay for their campaigns.
In addition, the media is out of control. The Fairness Doctrine must be legislated into law for all sites (internet, TV, newspapers, magazines, etc.) that claim to report the news. Both sides of all issues must be allowed a voice in every media story and Alt-Right media story too.
There must also be a Fairness Doctrine for campaign advertising that requires all claims to be fact checked for accuracy and the lies and misleading crap can’t be used. No misleading claims through in-the-mail flyers, the internet or the media.
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April,
Boy, am I glad you didn’t lump me in with Lloyd and Diane. What a travesty that would have been.
But I think Chas can handle himself here and the vehemence with which some of us here respond to some who post what are outright prevarications such as Chas’s “gubmint monopoly” or “from a leftist publication” when it is clearly not, to mention just a few of the edudeformer inanities and lies posted here, well that vehemence should be expected.
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I stand by my opinions based on the ad hominem fallacy fallacy
“One of the most widely misused terms on the Net is “ad hominem”. It is most often introduced into a discussion by certain delicate types, delicate of personality and mind, whenever their opponents resort to a bit of sarcasm. As soon as the suspicion of an insult appears, they summon the angels of ad hominem to smite down their foes, before ascending to argument heaven in a blaze of sanctimonious glory. They may not have much up top, but by God, they don’t need it when they’ve got ad hominem on their side. It’s the secret weapon that delivers them from any argument unscathed.
“In reality, ad hominem is unrelated to sarcasm or personal abuse. Argumentum ad hominem is the logical fallacy of attempting to undermine a speaker’s argument by attacking the speaker instead of addressing the argument. The mere presence of a personal attack does not indicate ad hominem: the attack must be used for the purpose of undermining the argument, or otherwise the logical fallacy isn’t there. It is not a logical fallacy to attack someone; the fallacy comes from assuming that a personal attack is also necessarily an attack on that person’s arguments.”
https://laurencetennant.com/bonds/adhominem.html
When you (me) waste time attempting to use logic and facts avoiding known conservative or liberal allegedly fake news sites obviously created to support an agenda like the Koch brothers and the CATO Institute and so many other organizations the Koch brothers have funded, and the person you are debating with refuses to accept your argument and sticks to their baseless opinions, then calling them names that fit is not an ad hominem and I will not apologise to Charles when I point ou6t who he seems to be.
I accept the fact that everyone has a right to their own opinions, even #FakePresdient Trump, but I don’t have to respect the opinions or the people that have them.
Once I know I’m debating an aptly named deplorable extremist, I stop debating them because it is a waste of time. I then call the banana a banana. Anything else is a waste of time. That’s why an old friend of mine I’ve known for about 60 years is now a former friend.
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April,I appreciate your comments, but no apology is necessary. I believe in “sticks and stones”. When a person cannot deal with facts, they often attack the messenger. No problem.
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