I know the headline is off-putting to teachers. The teachers who read here do not like being condescended to by “experts” who can’t do what they do everyday: teach 25-40 students.
Nonetheless, I am interested in hearing your reaction to this discussion.
Mark Tucker specializes in studying what top-performing nations do. He and Linda Darling-Hammond have prepared a report called “Empowered Educators,” which maintained that raising teacher preparation would transform the profession. Checker Finn criticized the report.
This article is Marc Tucker’s response to Checker Finn.
He begins like this:
On June 6, NCEE and the Stanford Center for Opportunity Policy in Education will jointly release a new international comparative study of teacher quality, Empowered Educators, conducted over three years on four continents by a team of researchers headed by Linda Darling- Hammond. On May 24, Checker Finn published a blog critiquing Empowered Educators. In this blog, I respond to the points Finn made in his critique.
Finn begins by saying that he has no quarrel with the quality of the research: “There’s no reason to doubt the accuracy of their accounts and explanations.” Nor does he quarrel with the crux of the findings: “…teaching in those places is more professional, more respected, better compensated, more highly trained, more sensibly structured as a career, and overall more effective than in the United States.” He admires, he says, “…what Finland, Ontario, and Singapore have pulled off.”
So what’s not to like? In a nutshell, Finn thinks there is no chance that these ideas, policies or practices can be implemented in the United States. Why? He gives us five reasons. I’ll tell you what they are and respond to each in turn.
First, teaching is a mass occupation, the single largest occupation in the American workforce. So it is obvious to Finn that there is no prayer of getting our teachers from the upper reaches of the distribution of high school graduates, as the top performers do. He says the reason we have this vast workforce is that schooling is provided by great bureaucracies, school principals are middle managers rather than full-fledged institutional leaders and teacher’s unions insist on treating all teachers in the same way.
But schooling in the top-performing countries is provided by much more centralized bureaucracies than you will find anywhere in the United States, typically with a reporting line that runs from the top civil service professional in the ministry through that person’s direct reports, through their direct reports in the regions and provinces, to their direct reports in the districts to the principals to the teachers. Now that is a bureaucracy!
We have nothing like it. We do have much more bureaucracy at the district level in our larger suburbs and big city districts than the top-performing countries do, but we would not need anything like that number of people in the central office if we had the kind of highly educated and very well-trained teaching force the top performers have. Finn is right in saying that managing first-class professionals requires people with different skills than the typical school principal. It’s a different job. But countless American firms have helped their front-line managers transition from techniques appropriate to the management of blue-collar workers to managing professionals. Peter Drucker wrote a whole book about that transition. Why can’t our school system managers go through a similar transition? As a matter of fact, NCEE is deeply engaged in helping districts do that right now and it is going very well. ce
The clincher for Finn is that teacher’s unions insist on treating all teachers the same way. But Lily Eskelsen García, the NEA’s President, is on record as being deeply committed to the idea of teacher career ladders of the kind that Darling-Hammond and her team found in Singapore. As far as we know, the AFT is also open to the idea.
I am reminded of Pasi Sahlberg’s provocative article in The Washington Post, where he asked the question:
“What If Finland’s Great Teachers Taught in U.S. Schools?”
He reviews what makes Finnish schools excellent, then answers his own question:
I argue that if there were any gains in student achievement they would be marginal. Why? Education policies in Indiana and many other states in the United States create a context for teaching that limits (Finnish) teachers to use their skills, wisdom and shared knowledge for the good of their students’ learning. Actually, I have met some experienced Finnish-trained teachers in the United States who confirm this hypothesis. Based on what I have heard from them, it is also probable that many of those transported Finnish teachers would be already doing something else than teach by the end of their fifth year – quite like their American peers.
Conversely, the teachers from Indiana working in Finland—assuming they showed up fluent in Finnish—stand to flourish on account of the freedom to teach without the constraints of standardized curricula and the pressure of standardized testing; strong leadership from principals who know the classroom from years of experience as teachers; a professional culture of collaboration; and support from homes unchallenged by poverty.

Many statics about teacher graduation ranking comes from SAT and ACT testing in which students mark their college majors. As an honors student, I took every AP course my high school except AP Biology–I studied physics my senior year. When I graduated in 1979, my class rank was 25 out of 578 students. I was interested in majoring in art and chemistry. Becoming a teacher was the last profession I was interested in pursuing when I was seventeen and eighteen years old. This year will be my twenty-seventh year as a teacher. Unfortunately many high quality teachers enter and leave the teaching profession due to the micromanaging of administrators who have little to no classroom experience. When I started teaching, my administrators were seasoned classroom teachers who had moved into administration after a decade or more in the classroom. Most administrators now resemble MBAs with an obsession for data, data, and more data. Between all of the benchmark testing, unit and six weeks testing, and state testing, I have been reduced to a testing coach and unable to design lessons tailored to the individual needs of my students. Enough is enough. I loved teaching, but I decided to retire this year. I will miss my students and my fellow teachers. As a teacher, I realize that change is healthy and an opportunity for a renewal of curiosity, spirit, and enthusiasm.
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Finn: America is so big and so stingy that we must resign ourselves to Walmart-style personnel policies in our schools.
That’s a recipe for crappy schools.
Tucker and Sahlberg are wiser. I KNOW my middle school would be much better if there were no high-stakes standardized tests. These deform what we do in so many ways. We are lucky to have a bunch of smart, dedicated teachers at my school. I constantly see their better judgment thwarted by mandates from our score-obsessed superintendent. What we could do if we had freedom! Many of my colleagues have been convinced by the cogency of E.D. Hirsch’s arguments against the current fashions in reading instruction. But acting on these insights is a non-starter in our abjectly test-fearing district. The whole nation is in a lockstep march to maximize scores on these terrible, curriculum narrowing Common Core tests.
As Tucker points out, big bureaucracy per se is not bad. But when it’s steered by hacks like David Coleman and not countered by competent professional organizations, we get deforming mandates like Common Core. Yesterday I asked a 2nd grade teacher in my district what talents we can expect the rising generation of elementary school kids to possess when they reach middle school. She said, “They should be good at word problems.” Ach –I recognize that buzz word. No topical units about snakes or farming or Native Americans –the kids these days get juicy units on “supporting claims with evidence” and “using context clues” and lots of practice untangling confusing word problems, even though we’ve never been shown the evidence that this actually makes one better at math. This is the tyrannical reign of Common Core.
Finn contradicts himself: he loves charters because they’re free of invidious bureaucracy and attacks the idea of big national bureaucracy, yet supports these crippling bureaucratic mandates for public schools.
He thinks giving more power to superior intellects like his will compensate for the dim wits of the mass teaching force below. Wrong. His wit is not so bright, and the better policy is to insure a supply of bright teachers and give them freedom to exercise their better judgment.
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Finn also contradicts himself by acting as though he wants to elevate the profession when all the people in his camp are working to deprofessionalize teaching. TFA is a slap in the face to the profession. Attending a quality college is no substitute for direct instruction in how and what to teach as well as having some idea about child development and psychology. Five weeks of training is a joke and perpetuates the myth that “anyone can teach.”
Finn also complains that teachers are treated the same. So what? If he bothered to read the research, he would learn that merit pay is an abject failure. Paying people through “value add” models has been another unfair system imposed on teaching by “reform.” Finn should not be shocked that there is a teacher shortage that stems from the relentless attacks on teachers and mass firings over the last decade. These attacks are master minded by “reformers” whose true goals are to destroy public schools and unions, and they have nothing to do with elevating the profession.
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Finn gets the “Double Speak” Award!
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“The top-performing countries” are Finland, Ontario, and Singapore? Finn needs a geography lesson, in addition to spending some more time in schools shadowing real teachers who have some amazing job assignments and horrific working conditions.
Finn seems to thinks the problems of teaching in the US are: (a) managerial —not enough like a corporation, no collective bargaining, no pay for performance, no move up to the C suites and ( b) talent–not having a great “the talent pipeline” recruits for teaching who have the top GPAs from selective colleges who pass muster on content knowledge.
Address these issues and “quality” is thus assured. Except it isn’t. Teaching is not a mass occupation any more than being a lawyer is mass occupation. Teaching is about the here and now and moment to moment enthusiasms and troubles and often lovely weirdness of children and adolescents learning to what matters to them and to others. (Sparing a dissertaion on this topic).
Education is not a business. If anything too many lessons from the corporate world have already infected education. I am also tired of hearing about “gains in student achievement” when the main and sometimes exclusive meaning of “achievement” is a score on a standardized test in a conventional school subject and perhaps a graduation rate. If an economist is on board, then the you will get predictions of all sorts about the fate of the student or the economy. I have a question for Tucker and Finn: Do you think that teachers and students in public schools tanked “the economy” in 2008?
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I find some of Finn’s perceptions about teachers way off the mark. While I cannot comment on other states, I can say that all teachers must complete a master’s degree in order to be permanently certified in New York. Most of the staff attended excellent schools in the northeast, and they were in the top quintile of their class. The New York teachers I knew were bright, hard working, collegial professionals that cared a great deal about their students. What gives Finn the right to indulge in prejudicial remarks and over generalizations about teachers he has never met?
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“So it is obvious to Finn that there is no prayer of getting our teachers from the upper reaches of the distribution of high school graduates, as the top performers do.”
So basically the debate boils down to whether we can or can’t have all teachers with high SAT/ACT scores? Am I getting that correct? Otherwise, what exactly does “from the upper reaches of the distribution of high school graduates” mean?
Test scores mean the same thing for teachers as they do for students: slightly more than nothing. To the extent test scores tell us anything, they tell us what socio-economic background people come from. So, to translate further, basically the debate is whether or not it’s possible/practical to make our teaching force whiter and more affluent.
Meh, a plague on both their houses.
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If I remember correctly, Finland does not just take the top performers to become teachers. They actually look at the whole person and realize that what makes a good teacher isn’t contained in a number.
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Lovely Shakespeare reference.
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It will never happen in a climate of disinvestment in education. It could only happen if the US wanted to invest in its public schools.
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Here is my response to the panel members of the Show Me Institute’s and U of Ark School of Deform, oops mean Reform’s “Failure to Fixes” conference:
“Thoughts on the conference:
You all are so young! My advice, stay young, this getting older crap is for the birds! And hell, I don’t consider myself that old-62 in less than a month.
And that youngness hints at some aspects of the conference, the first being the topic of “experts”. My question for the group (I was not chosen to ask) would be “How many of you have 10 years experience teaching in a public K-12 school? Then, how many of you have 5 years experience teaching in a K-12 public school? I believe the answer would have been that none of the panelists have that kind of experience. Considering it takes a minimum 5 years of doing something to master it (obviously not including natural geniuses). . . what conclusions might I draw in listening to what the panelists, who have very little to no experience whatsoever in teaching in the K-12 public schools, have to say about the supposed reforms (actually deforms) that you have promoted for so many years? I contend that it takes a minimum 10 years to master the art of teaching. How can you expect me, or anyone for that matter, to give credence to what you have to say about K-12 education when that very basic experience is missing?”
Haven’t gotten a response back yet, but it was only a couple of days ago that I sent it.
As part of my response I sent them an electronic draft copy of my “Fidelity to Truth: Education Malpractice in American Public Education” book.
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“The teachers who read here do not like being condescended to by “experts” who can’t do what they do everyday: teach 25-40 students.”
Is what prompted this seemingly unrelated post.
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Tucker wrote what would make the most sense to me here: “…as [many of the top performing nations] invested more and more in their teachers and the quality of those teachers kept improving, they realized that they did not need anywhere near as many people telling their teachers what to do, nor did they need anywhere near as many expensive central office specialists sent down to the school, because the teachers already had as much expertise as any of the specialists. The school faculty gained more and more autonomy and status as the ranks of the central office staff shrank.”
My big city district invests heavily in central office specialists, in a myriad of private companies to act as specialists, and in Big Data as robo-specialist. Any investment in school faculty is decried by all the specialists as nothing but an “unfunded pension liability”. An investment in school faculty would be, however, the only truly worthwhile investment. Let us teachers be the specialists. It makes the most sense. Cut out the middleman and invest as directly as possible in the classroom.
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Here’s a link to my district website’s offices browser. http://achieve.lausd.net/offices See if you have the patience to count the offices and try to figure out how many six figure salaries are involved in subverting teacher autonomy. If you know LAUSD somewhat intimately, scroll down see how many superfluous, top-down office branches you can identify as established by ed deformers like former Superintendent Deasy. It’s depressing fun!
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Apologies to Darling-Hammond for neglecting to give credit for authorship. I was too busy puzzling over my agreement with Marc Tucker, whom I have, in the past, associated with testing and data obsessions.
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You should associate Tucker with testing and data obsessions. In fact, that’s all he’s talking about here, it’s just that in this case it’s testing and data regarding teachers instead of students. The argument is that teachers who score well on tests make better teachers and therefore should be sought out. Finn’s only counterargument is that it isn’t practical because the American public will never be willing to pay what it would cost to get the “upper distribution” into teaching. Neither one of them considers that teaching, like learning, is about a lot more than test scores. I don’t give a rat’s patoot what my kids’ teachers ACT/SAT scores were, or where they ranked in their high school or college classes or whether they graduated cum laude or whatnot. The only question that matters is can they engage with children enough to help spark a love of learning. Teaching isn’t about knowledge transmission – it’s about helping kids learn to learn for themselves.
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I was concerned about that, dienne77. Still, his argument is based on the way higher performing nations pay teachers, and TFA and merit pay ain’t it. They just pay teachers more, period. Paying teachers enough to attract the best and brightest probably won’t happen, although it could on the left coast if it weren’t for the billionaires pushing for regressive taxes and charter school scams instead.
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All things in moderation, as they say, especially comments. My reply to dienne77 was taken in moderation. It’s still there, Word Press.
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Excellent posting. Excellent comments.
As is so often the case, a Rheephormish-to-English translation is necessary.
Yes, corporate education reform is all about “doing more with less” as in “doing more for/giving more to owners/top managers” of educational franchises like charters while “doing less and less for/giving less and less to those doing the actual work.”
It’s top-heavy, top-down, inefficient, ineffective, and among other things, notably incapable of genuine self-reflection and self-correction.
However, for those that pepper their eduproduct sales pitches with buzzwords like “disruptive innovation” and “creative destruction” and the like, there’s one unyielding constant amidst the blizzard of promises and unfounded claims—
to paraphrase the late Vince Lombardi: “$tudent $ucce$$ isn’t everything, it’s the only thing.”
Thanks to all for their contributions to this thread.
😎
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KTA, From a NJ reader
Love your V Lombardi paraphrase–early in his career, he coached at St Cecelia HS, Englewood, NJ
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From Finn’s article:
“Teaching also behaves like a mass occupation because we’ve organized K–12 schooling into huge government bureaucracies, because school principals by and large are middle managers rather than full-fledged institutional leaders. . ”
Man, how much bullshit can one man put into a sentence?
Yeah, teaching is a “mass occupation” you know like what. . . garbagemen (who perform some of the most important jobs in society, not that Finn would understand) , assembly line workers, fast food cashiers, waiters, waitresses???
K-12 schooling, i.e., school districts, I assume, are a “huge government bureaucracies”? Maybe a few like NYC’s, Chicago’s, LA’s or a few more mega city’s public school districts, but those make up probably less than .003% of the almost 13,500 democratically controlled local community public school districts.
Now, I think most here know I’m not a fan of the current state/performance of most administrators who seem to only know how to implement nefarious malpractices. . .
. . . championed by the likes of Checker Finn. Calling them middle managers is condescendingly bogus. There’s a hell of a lot more to being a good administrator than being a “middle manager”.
and some more bovine excrement of thought:
“The crude ratio of students to teachers in American K–12 education when I was a kid was 27 to 1. Today it’s 14 to 1. (Look it up!)”
I guess lying with statistics must be fun for edudeformers like Finn, eh! Hey, Finnie, take your “Look it up!” and shove it up your. . . where the “sun don’t shine.” Really, you supply a bullshit stat and tell THE READER to look it up!?! I guess your statshitistics don’t stink, eh!-at least to you!
I wasn’t going to quote any more but. . . .
“At $12,000 per child, a classroom of twenty-three kids is “worth” 276,000 taxpayer dollars. Ask yourself how much of that sum goes into the pocket and benefits of the main classroom teacher.”
Is Finn that ignorant about school finance?? I think the answer has to be no, it’s that he is that STUPID about school finance, that he is a willing prevaricator, disseminator, and otherwise manipulating DFer.
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Duane quoting the article ““The crude ratio of students to teachers in American K–12 education when I was a kid was 27 to 1. Today it’s 14 to 1. (Look it up!)””
Where does this guy get his numbers? Instead, try 24.
https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/sass/tables/sass1112_2013314_t1s_007.asp
Here is international comparison: US is not great (but not the worst)
https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/class-size-around-the-world/
Duane quoting the article “At $12,000 per child, a classroom of twenty-three kids is “worth” 276,000 taxpayer dollars. Ask yourself how much of that sum goes into the pocket and benefits of the main classroom teacher.”
So now he is calculating based on a class size of 23 not 14 as he claimed before. Instructional spending is about $6K per child on average.
http://www.governing.com/gov-data/education-data/state-education-spending-per-pupil-data.html
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I just talked to a Finnish woman, who used to go to school in the US for a few years, and she thought, American teachers were not good. They didn’t know how to teach well, how to handle kids well, and their enthusiasm level for their subject was low. She went to school in the US about 10-15 years ago.
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It’s a fact that American teachers are way overworked and way too constrained in the classroom in what to teach and even how to teach it. They don’t have much choice in the matter, though this is exactly where they should have choices.
But it’s also a fact that US teachers spend the first two years in college on taking gened courses which are not related to teaching, while Finnish teacher candidates take courses related to teaching from day one of their 5 year college carrier.
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Steve Perry is the keynote at the national charter schools conference this year:
“And on Thursday, the state Auditors of Public Accounts reported that in 2013-14 and 2014-15, at least 128 enrolled students had circumvented the lottery. But that number comes from an investigation into only four schools, and Capital Prep accounts for 116 of those students.
“Nearly 36 percent of all students admitted to Capital Prep during those two school years were placed outside the lottery, an inexcusable manipulation of the system.
How this breach could happen is the first in a long list of unanswered questions about how deeply the lottery system has been compromised — and by whom.
The situation at Capital Prep in particular raises the most eyebrows. The school was founded by the outspoken educator Steve Perry in 2005, and he was principal during the years in question. He left after the 2015 school year.
His 2012 tweet claiming “We DO NOT hand pick our students” now seems, at best, dubious. He did not respond to reporters’ attempts to reach him.”
http://www.courant.com/opinion/editorials/hc-ed-capital-prep-admission-lottery-0505-20170504-story.html
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Charters have always fought tooth-and-nail any oversight of these lotteries, or, God forbid, having an outside third party conduct the lottery
The usually pro-charter L.A. Weekly once did an expose that showed that, with the high-end charters marked to and populated by the wealthy and upper middle class kids, the lotteries were essentially a sham.
The L.A. Weekly article details how the charters who claim that their students are chosen by lottery, are also allowed to give preference to the children of “founders”, but then the charter operators then created a new category of “founders” … “secondary founders” or something like that who came on board years after the school was actually “founded”.
How does one qualify to be one of these “secondary founders”? Why, you donate to the school, of course. In other words, you just bribe your way in. The end result is a student body that is white as Sweden, with almost no student who is not upper class, or upper middle class.
As a result of these shenanigans, you essentially have a rich kids private school paid for by the taxpayers, populated by the children of folks who could already easily afford private school, but — thanks to this particular charter scam — no longer have to.
Great for those folks — they get to take their kids on more vacations, or build up the college fund — but for the low-income Latino kids attending the nearby traditional public schools, those kids get screwed, as it’s a zero-sum game. If one school/class of schools gets money, the other school/class of schools lose money. Class size goes up. Since there’s less money for raises/benefits of teachers, those schools have a harder to time attracting and retaining quality teachers. Ditto … a full, rich curriculum with the arts, a dedicated P.E. teacher etc, or any special programs that the rich kids charter school offers.
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Those who can, teach. Those who can’t teach, pontificate on teaching.
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Are we 100% sure that business people in the private sector are the gold standard for “excellence”?
The devotion to ranking “excellence” based on SAT/ACT scores of employees is just never questioned. Is it true?
It sometimes feels to me like a group of people with high SAT/ACT scores are VERY invested in defending the clear superiority of people with high SAT/ACT scores 🙂
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I remember one of those corporate reform studies that said that teachers were overpaid. The entire study was that the researchers who concluded that teachers were overpaid based that conclusion on … SAT/ACT scores.
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Or become adminimals!
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I don’t know if any of you read Audrey Watters on ed tech but she’s great and you should 🙂
“Education needs to change, we have long been told. It is outmoded. Inefficient. And this “new normal” – in an economic sense much more than a pedagogical one – has meant schools have been tasked to “do more with less” and specifically to do more with new technologies which promise greater efficiency, carrying with them the values of business and markets rather than the values of democracy or democratic education.
These new technologies, oriented towards consumers and consumption, privilege an ideology of individualism. In education technology, as in advertising, this is labeled “personalization.” The flaw of traditional education systems, we are told, is that they focus too much on the group, the class, the collective. So we see education being reframed as a technologically-enhanced series of choices – consumer choices. ”
School is one of the few places left where kids are set apart from “the values of business and markets”. It would be a shame if we let ed tech turn them into “consumers” even in school.
http://hackeducation.com/2017/05/24/new-normal
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Great quote that summarizes how the outside business influences are rewriting the function of our schools, even though they they nothing about education or young people.
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Second that!
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Lots of the comments here are good. One thing I wanted to add is that I remember a Malcolm Gladwell piece that cited research finding no correlation between SAT/ACT scores, GPA, or class rank of teacher candidates and their eventual “effectiveness” as teachers.
But let’s say that we have a general goal (which I would applaud) of getting more smart, talented, hardworking human beings to enter teaching, giving principals a bigger and better pool of workers to choose from. It’s not enough to simply raise the bar to entry to teaching: there has to be something attractive on the other side for people to want to enter it. Better working conditions; better pay; trusting collegial relationships that empower teachers to do their best work. It’s all very well to say that Finnish teachers are trusted with important decisions about curriculum, pedagogy, and assessment because they’re well-prepared and competent — so all teachers should be — but as any teacher knows from working with students, you also have to trust people with responsibilities in order for them to grow. Trust may result from competence, but competence also grows from trust.
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“From Ch. 2 “Fidelity to Truth in Educational Discourse:
• Speech and/or writing accurately describes policies, practices and outcomes (discourse).
…
• Discourse is free of contradictions, error and falsehoods.”
What part of:
“…democratically controlled local community public school districts.”
Yeilds:
“…constrained in the classroom in what to teach and even how to teach it. They don’t have much choice in the matter…”
???
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Like (obviously, eh! NB).
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If I may complete that thought:
Now, let’s delve into Comte-Sponville’s concept of “fidelity to truth.” What is meant by fidelity to truth, that of being faithful/true to truth? Preliminarily and primarily, Comte-Sponville states “All fidelity is—whether to a value or to a person—is fidelity to love and through love.” Since he considers love to be the greatest and hardest to achieve virtue that statement rightly precedes all his other thoughts on the subject. We can follow that up with the consideration that fidelity is the “will to remember” truthfully and that fidelity “resists forgetfulness, changing fashions and interests, the charms of the moment, the seductions of power.” Fidelity to truth means “refusing to change one’s ideas in the absence of strong, valid reasons, and. . . it means holding as true. . . ideas whose truth has clearly and solidly established.” At the same time fidelity to truth means rejecting discourse that has been shown to have errors, falsehoods and invalidities. However, “Being faithful to one’s thoughts more than to truth would mean being unfaithful to thought and condemning oneself to sophistry.” To be unfaithful to truth, to be in error, then is to reject that which makes honest communications, policies and practices cogent and a human good, a virtue.
• Speech and/or writing accurately describes policies, practices and outcomes (discourse).
• Using the correct/intended meaning of a word in light of the context.
• Discourse serves to enlighten and not obscure meaning.
• Discourse is free of contradictions, error and falsehoods.
• The “control of belief by fact” (S. Blackburn).
• Discourse is based in skeptical rationo-logical thought processes in which a “scientific attitude” holds sway.
• Discourse based on/in faith conventions is eschewed and rejected outright due to separation of church and state constitutional concerns.
• Discourse of expediency based on the rationalizations of “Everyone is doing this”, “It is dictated by the State Department of Education” or “NCLB mandates that we have to do this” is firmly and rightly rejected.
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NoBrick,
Forgive me if I forgot or not whether I have sent you an electronic copy or the book. If I haven’t please email me at dswacker@centurytel.net and I’ll send it to you.
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forgot whether or not, ay ay ay. Trouble typing my thoughts today!
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A comprehensive assessment of how to improve the public school teaching force needs to consider the role that poor discipline has in driving out good teachers. I have met many very well-educated, idealistic people who have gotten certified to teach, tried teaching for a year or two, and then switched careers. Almost always the reason is kids’ unruly behavior. It is often precisely the ones with the most to give –the gentle, thoughtful and deeply knowledgable –who get steamrolled by the kids in public schools. One such teacher I know switched to a private school and is much happier. One young ardent anti-racist woman I know is getting steamrolled now by her students at Berkeley High School; I think she’s on the verge of quitting. I think about the smartest and nicest high school teachers I had who were tormented by kids who decided to turn class into sadistic sport rather than take advantage of what the teacher had to give them. My poor 9th grade English teacher –the kindest man you could imagine and a Yale graduate –spent every day fending off taunts from several raucous boys. My poor German teacher –a small older woman from Berlin –couldn’t teach a thing all year because of the rioting kids. Occasionally she would sit beside me and the one other serious student in the class and try to teach us one-on-one. A friend of mine who taught in a NYC high school said, “It’s not a school. It’s a zoo.” It’s bizarre to me that public school advocates cannot face these facts honestly. There’s a taboo about talking about this very real situation. Teachers won’t tell their stories because of the stigma. Teachers need to start speaking up.
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You’ve turned on the light to a basic problem of public schools. I retired in 2013 and decided to go back part time. I teach two sections of honors level sophomores. One class is well behaved, attentive, interesting, and engaged. The other is made up of way too many who are taking honors only because they and/ or their parents want it on their resume ( and they get an extra .5 on g.p.a). This class contains about 10 students who are sincerely interested and most of those 10 have the skills needed to read the literature we’re studying,, analyzing, and writing. The other 20 have no interest. A group of 3-4 disrupt the class on a daily basis. Repeated write ups, phone calls home, and detention have no affect on these students. The disrupters know they can continue because there are no actual consequences from admin or their parents.
In sum, at the end of a long career in education that began in 1974, I’ve concluded the students are now in charge- not the adults. And the students know it. Until that reality changes, American public schools will continue to have problems- with or without too much testing.
And yes- teachers won’t talk publicly about this problem because to do so nearly always points the finger at the teacher, not the students or the lack of a school discipline policy with backbone.
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How many teachers have had students sent back to the classroom with the message that the teacher lacked classroom management skills? The administration totally abdicated their responsibility to deal with (chronically) disruptive students.
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Yes, the teacher is always the culprit. As if a teacher’s failing to beguile every student in the room justifies a kid making animal noises during the lesson, or openly mocking the teacher.
The myth, perpetuated by bad-faith administrators and hack “authorities”, is that “an engaging lesson plan” and “treating the kids with respect” is a panacea. Bad behavior is an indictment of a teacher’s ability to do those two things. The teacher must be dull and/or disrespectful to the students. Student provocations do sometimes provoke testy reactions from the teachers, but it’s rarely the other way around. But some kids will use the testiness to justify further outrageously rude behavior.
In a great episode of This American Life about middle schools, Alex Bloomberg, one of the show’s producers, talked about his experience teaching science in a Chicago public school. He said that in four (?) years there, he doesn’t think he managed to teach the kids a single thing about science.
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Ponderosa,
Re discipline
I think that is part of the larger issue of a profound lack of respect for teachers in the US — by students, by administrators, by politicians and by members of society at large.
New teachers are expected to just “figure things out for themselves” and if they can’t do that, they are judged “ineffective” and shown the door.
I suspect that in the current ultracritical climate, they are afraid to say they are having problems with discipline because they fear (probably correctly) that they will be judged negatively (and perhaps not get tenure as a result)
The single most destructive aspect of current policies is the fear driven “everyone for themselves” atmosphere that it engenders.
Until the attitude of those who set policy changes to one of helping teachers improve — from looking for reasons to fire them — new teachers will continue to leave.
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Yes, but even the tenured teachers downplay their struggles with discipline. Teachers are up against inaccurate romantic conceptions of children, unrealistic and narrow ideas of what a good teacher is, fallacious doctrine about classroom management emanating from ed schools, a stultifying curriculum that inspires rebellion, failing family structures –as well as the YOYO culture you talk about! Yikes, I guess we need to hunker down –relief seems unlikely when I put it this way.
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I only had one class in 21 years where there was more disruption than I liked. It was a class of 35 students in Spanish 1, including my son. We had moved to the district at the start of the year. When I told other teachers of the 10-12 students, naming them, that were in that class, the teachers, who obviously knew I was new, would say something like “Oh, I’m so sorry for you” or What were they thinking when they put those idiots in the same class”
Yeah, I know teachers aren’t supposed to talk that way but this is a small rural community and everyone basically knows everyone else. Even my son would say stuff like “Who do they think they are?” “What a bunch of assholes”, and my son certainly wasn’t a goody two shoes but he was used to a very academic atmosphere in his prior suburban public schools. We got through the year with about 6-7 not making it into second semester due to having a below 60% average. And it was very hard to not pass my class. You basically had to do nothing, which is what those 6-7 kids did other than disrupt the class.
But in the prior school and other than that class in that school, the principals knew that if I sent someone to the office (less than one/yr on average) they really had to have screwed up. The principals would say to them “Look Mr. Swacker never sends anyone to the office, what did you do that was so bad that he sent you to the office?” What could the student do? There couldn’t be any argument. And I never had a parent challenge those few times, either. But then I taught in suburban rural and rural schools where the backing of the parents was good.
Personally, I believe that if any student disrupts a class so that they are sent to the office, they should have to write an apology to the class for taking their learning time and read it out loud to the class before being allowed to return. I wouldn’t want it directed to the teacher but to his/her fellow students. I suggested that many times over the years but no one seemed to want to go there.
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I have a paper published by EPAA entitled “Are teachers crucial for academic achievement: Finland educational success in a comparative perspective” (http://epaa.asu.edu/ojs/article/view/1752) that may shed some light on the debate. In a summary: Teachers, as important as they are, they are not crucial, at least not alone, no matter how we define teacher’s quality, which by the way, changes from context to context and situation to situation.
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Bienvenidos a nuestro, bueno en realidad, el sitio de Diane. Je je.
Please give us a summary of why you believe that teachers are not crucial to how we define teacher quality. Does not the quality of a teacher necessarily depend on the teacher and what it means to teach? Does the problem lie in the definition of teacher quality? Does it lie in the fact that teachers do not really have any control over the outside the classroom environment and activities of the student?
Voy a leer su artículo en un rato. Mientras tanto, por favor dénos un resúmen. TIA (no Tía), Duane
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The problem here is that the conversation begins with the “understanding” that our public school system, throughout the entire USA, is inferior and requires fixing. Whereas we, at one point, fought this concept, it seems that it has become the accepted norm. Now the argument has skipped that step and is about how we’re going to FIX the “problem”.
Poverty is at the root of our problem in education, today. If you put the best possible technology, science labs, libraries, etc into the inner city schools I’ve taught in, you would see theft, vandalism, and a continued disdain for the teachers as is seen in the run down schools that are in operation, today. So many of the kids (and the parents) don’t trust us and don’t see a connection between their lives and what an education has to offer.
Charter schools provide a place into which the parents/kids who want to escape the chaos can try to gain admittance. But the original charter schools were the brainchild of Albert Shanker, the founder and head of the United Federation of Teachers. These schools worked within the system to provide an alternate educational model for those kids (and teachers) who seemed motivated and open to change. Unlike today’s charter schools, they worked collaboratively with other public schools. Not in competition. And, unlike today’s charter schools, they were required to have the same oversight and transparency as the other traditional schools. Shanker abandoned the charter school programs when it became obvious that the private sector was getting in on the act with the profit motive front and center.
My principal retired a year after receiving an email from Joel Klein, detailing what she, as a “front line manager” was expected to do. She said, “I thought I was a principal”. She said she believed that a second person might be hired to deal specifically with the new financial budget requirements…but that she thought the term “manager” was a slap in the face to all who had worked so hard within the field to get to the position they were in, as principal.
(For any reader that doesn’t know: a “principal” is a shortened version of the term “principal teacher”. Someone who has risen through the ranks, knows the profession inside out and, so, can draw upon that knowledge when dealing with organizational, scheduling, and problem solving issues within the school(s) he or she is assigned to).
Mr. Finn: if you want to attract the best, you have to offer the best. Or a reasonable facsimile, thereof. That begins with public and political respect for the profession. I, personally, know more than a few extremely intelligent people who have either bailed or just didn’t even bother starting as a teacher because of the constant barrage of media criticism that teachers endure. Add to that the move away from school/teacher autonomy and creativity within the classroom towards a stricter, test based, computerized bastardization of the craft and you’ve lost even more interest.
Then there’s the matter of $$$. If you want to attract the best minds, then you’d better be ready to pony up…because those best minds do have other options that might just pay better.
Thanks for the link, Diane. More of the same. And what I wrote, above, is, unfortunately, more of the same, as well.
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The problem begins in speaking of a “public school system, throughout the entire USA”. That bit of misnomer, that bit of Jebsterism Is where the problem begins for there is no “public school system”. There are around 13,500 individual democratically controlled (for the most part) community public school districts. How those 13,500 separate, distinct school districts can be misconstrued as a “public school system throughout the entire USA” is beyond my understanding.
Now if one wants to say that all of the public school districts in the whole USA are “inferior and require fixing”, have at it. And then listen to the howls of protestation from the vast majority of them as they show what a crock that Jebsterism is.
I do like your explaining the term principal. Unfortunately the vast majority have nowhere near the teaching nor the supervisory experience that the office requires and therefore are very inferior occupants. I call them adminimals.
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I actually thought of you when I wrote that, Duane, having read your correct assessment of the public schools in other posts.
Semantics in this case, imo. I meant a system of public schools, throughout the USA, that are paid for by tax dollars, are not allowed to exclude students, and have school boards comprised of locally elected members.
Loose knit but a system all the same.
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Dang, gitapik, now you’ve got me going and looking at the meaning of system. While at first glance I like your description as “loose knit” upon further perusal I’m not so sure that the public schools can be defined as being knitted together as that implies a fairly intertwined relationship that doesn’t exist. Nor are they “a regularly interacting or interdependent group of items forming a unified whole” (def #1 for system from MW online dictionary) as each school and district are not “interacting regularly” nor “necessarily dependent upon each other” nor are they a “unified whole” (contrary to what J. Bush and the other edudeformers would have us believe).
Now under definition one is this: “a group of devices or artificial objects or an organization forming a network especially for distributing something or serving a common purpose.” But the public schools are not “an organization” but thousands of separate organizations. So that doesn’t work either to have system describe the status, character of public schools.
And this points to my beef in the way language is used in the education realm. It is not “faithful to truth” in the sense that people, like Jeb Bush, use the term system in order to obfuscate the true nature of public schools in America which is not a true system but a setup of multiple differing entities, that while having many things in common, are not interconnected nor “knitted” together.
By the way, gitapik, have you ever worked with knitted fabrics? Boy are they a bear to work with.
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Damn. I’d hate to play you in chess, Duane.
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You’d probably win!
Although I do enjoy ajedrez as it’s called in Spanish. I think, although I’ve not verified it, that the English word chess stems from some Englishman’s mishearing and mispronunciation of ajedrez with the guttaral j in combination with the dr trilled sound (vowels are short and crisp sounds that sometimes get “lost” in listening to an English speaker, in this case the e of ajedrez) was probably misheard as a ch giving us chess from ajedrez. No way to prove that, it’s just my conjecture.
Haven’t played much chess in years. A friend whom I’ve known since before grade school, and I lived across the street from each other right after college. We played a few hundred games (we pretty much broke even in terms of wins/losses) in a couple of years but that was 35 years ago.
Played against our best high school club player a few years back, I could tell I was “rusty” and made, fairly early on, what I knew to be a fatal mistake. I tried to work my way out of it but he had already seen what had happened and I couldn’t get out of my mistake. He won.
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Well…how about a deck of cards and a good ol’ fashioned game of “War”?
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Mercedes Schneider’s points about Finn’s tenure should precede the posting of all of his comments.
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