Indiana has one of the most expansive voucher programs in the nation, even though the state constitution explicitly forbids spending public money for religious schools. The state courts decided that the constitution doesn’t mean what it says. Former Governor Mitch Daniels initiated the voucher program and Mike Pence expanded it. Although born a Catholic, Pence is now an evangelical Christian.
Mother Jones investigated the Indiana voucher program and found that it has been a boon for religious schools, including many that teach creationism. Student performance in the voucher schools is poor; maybe someday the state will realize that it has to save kids who are failing to learn in mediocre voucher schools.
“One of Vice President-elect Mike Pence’s pet projects as governor of Indiana was expanding school choice vouchers, which allow public money to pay for private school tuition. President-elect Donald Trump has said he’d like to expand such vouchers in the rest of the country, but what happened in Indiana should serve as a cautionary tale for Trump and his administration.
“Pence’s voucher program ballooned into a $135 million annual bonanza almost exclusively benefiting private religious schools—ranging from those teaching the Koran to Christian schools teaching creationism and the Bible as literal truth—at the expense of regular and usually better-performing public schools. Indeed, one of the schools was a madrasa, an Islamic religious school, briefly attended by a young man arrested this summer for trying to join ISIS—just the kind of place Trump’s coalition would find abhorrent.
“In Indiana, Pence created one of the largest publicly funded voucher programs in the country. Initially launched in 2011 under Republican Gov. Mitch Daniels, it was sold as a way to give poor, minority children trapped in bad public schools a way out. “Social justice has come to Indiana education,” Daniels declared after the voucher legislation passed. It was supposed to be a small program, initially capped at 7,500 vouchers. Full vouchers, worth 90 percent of the per-pupil spending in a school district, were reserved for families with incomes up to 100 percent of the cutoff for free or reduced-price school lunch, about $45,000 a year for a family of four.
“But in 2013, Pence and the state’s GOP-controlled Legislature raised the income limits on the program so that a family of four with up to $90,000 in annual income became eligible for vouchers covering half their private school tuition. They also removed most requirements that students come from a public school to access the vouchers, making families already attending private school eligible for tuition subsidies, thus removing any pretense that the vouchers were a tool to help poor children escape failing schools.
“Pence’s school choice experiment demonstrates that vouchers can create a host of thorny political problems and potential church- and-state issues.
“By the 2015-16 school year, the number of students using state-funded vouchers had shot up to more than 32,000 in 316 private schools. But Pence’s school choice experiment demonstrates that vouchers can create a host of thorny political problems and potential church-and-state issues. Almost every single one of these voucher schools is religious. The state Department of Education can’t tell parents which or even whether any of the voucher schools are secular. (A state spokeswoman told me Indiana doesn’t collect data on the school’s religious affiliation.) Out of the list of more than 300 schools, I could find only four that weren’t overtly religious and, of those, one was solely for students with Asperger’s syndrome and other autism spectrum disorders, and the other is an alternative school for at-risk students.
“Opponents, including public school teachers and local clergy, sued the state to try to block the voucher program in 2011, arguing that it clearly violated the state constitutional provisions that protect taxpayers from having to support religion. They were also concerned that the money going to the religious schools was coming directly from local public school systems, draining them of critical funding in violation of the state constitution. But the Indiana state Supreme Court ruled in 2013 that the voucher program was constitutional because public money was going to the students and not to religious institutions directly….
“Perhaps not surprisingly, the kids in these schools aren’t performing very well on the state’s standardized tests, putting voucher schools among the state’s worst-performing schools. The three campuses of Horizon Christian Academy rank near the bottom. Two of its schools were once for-profit charter schools that lost their charters because they were badly underperforming. They reconstituted as private religious schools and now take taxpayer-funded vouchers. In 2015, less than 9 percent of the students at one of the Horizon campuses passed the state standardized tests in math and English, a rate worse than most of the state’s public schools from which the vouchers were supposed to provide an escape.
“A study by researchers at Notre Dame University published last year shows that in the first three years of the program, Indiana kids who left public schools to attend voucher schools saw their math scores decline in comparison with their peers who remained in regular public schools. The public school students saw improvements in their English skills, but the voucher kids’ results stayed flat. The voucher schools can’t necessarily blame low test scores on poverty, either. According to data from the state, today more than 60 percent of the voucher students in Indiana are white, and more than half of them have never even attended any public school, much less a failing one. Some of the fastest growth in voucher use has occurred in some of the state’s most affluent suburbs. The Center for Tax and Budget Accountability, a Chicago-based think tank, recently concluded that because white children’s participation in the voucher program dwarfed the next largest racial group by 44 points, the vouchers were effectively helping to resegregate public schools.”
This is what is in store for the nation in the Trump-Pence era.

Minor correction:
“Although born a Catholic, Pence is now an evangelical Christian.”
Ummm, NO! No one is “born” in/a part of any religion. A religious sect is indoctrinated into a human, doesn’t matter the particular religion. And hard-core religious right Catholics are basically no different than evangelical xtians-same type of fanaticism one finds in all fundamental sects of the various religions.
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Duane, if it makes you happy, let’s say that when he was born, he was baptized as a Catholic. Subsequently, he became an evangelical.
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Better. Thanks!
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Duane: In Catholic-speak, Pence is a “cradle-Catholic.”
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“According to data from the state, today more than 60 percent of the voucher students in Indiana are white, and more than half of them have never even attended any public school, much less a failing one.”
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“According to data from the state, today more than 60 percent of the voucher students in Indiana are white, and more than half of them have never even attended any public school, much less a failing one.”
Even in a pro-public education that is battering the edudeformers and privateers the author continues to use the “failing public schools” meme. Ay ay ay ay ay!
Folks, we have to be more careful in our usage of the false memes perpetrated by the avaricious bastards who want to profit off the backs of the most innocent of society, the children.
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Luckily for the people of New Mexico (NM) vouchers cannot be used for education. The NM Constitution prohibits the use of vouchers. So, Pence and DeVos can kiss the collective you know what of NM. Of course, there are those in NM that would like to change that item in the Constitution but it has been tried and failed. ALEC has friends in the NM Legislature so the attached may come that way. Who knows but for now, no vouchers for NM!!!!!!!
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Keep New Mexico voucher-free!
Watch the state courts to make sure they don’t re-interpret the ban on public funding of religious schools as “money to the families, not the religions,” when it is intended for religious schools
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The state Department of Education can’t tell parents which or even whether any of the voucher schools are secular. (A state spokeswoman told me Indiana doesn’t collect data on the school’s religious affiliation.)
Transparency? No. Parent with vouchers get to buy a school based on what? the advertising of the school? word of mouth? address? Subsidized religious education will become the norm if DeVos can get away with the Pence plan.
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I know none of these people live in the places they’re “transforming” but a lot of places would be radically different if all children were to take a voucher and head off to the school of their chosen religious denomination.
They’re talking about changing the entire nature of these communities and they don’t seem to know that.
They don’t even know what they’re throwing away but they can’t wait to discard it. It’s reckless and irresponsible.
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Unfortunately, this reminds me of what happened after the Supreme Court Brown v Board of Education decision. Some school districts in the South closed all their public schools entirely, rather than integrate them. Arkansas Governor Orval Faubus called out the state National Guard to prevent black students from attending a segregated high school in Little Rock (President Eisenhower sent in federal troops to enforce the desegregation.)
And on and on and on. “White flight” began, wherein white families moved out of the mixed race cities and into the predominantly white suburbs to avoid integration.
Wouldn’t it be wonderful if the money spent by the billionaires was instead spent on giving resources to the public schools in poorer areas (and it’s not just in inner cities, it affects poor rural areas, as well)? And, even more to the point, spending money to actually do something about poverty in this country? Which is our fundamental and ongoing problem.
For-profit charter schools, vouchers- all of that is designed to avoid integrating schools and serving the students who, frankly, need more resources, but also to make money for the school privatizers.
You cannot treat children like commodities to make money for people (although that’s what they’re trying to do). As well, schools should not be used to indoctrinate children into certain religions and beliefs.
Oy!
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“Student performance in the voucher schools is poor; maybe someday the state will realize that it has to save kids who are failing to learn in mediocre voucher schools.”
Never happen. I watched the ed reform argument shift in Ohio. It started with “choice for better schools”. When the “choice” schools weren’t better it shifted to “choice for the sake of choice”.
They do a neat little switcharoo – the language changes and you’re left with Right wing ideological preference for “private” over “public”. The ed reform “movement” is 3/4 of the way there.
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If these voucher schools were required to show some type of improvement, it would make sense that the voucher is about academic achievement. However, it is more about using public money to pay for religious education.
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I feel as if the ideological motive behind it is revealed in ed reform’s assumption that private schools ARE better than public schools.
That’s simply not true a lot of the time, but they all believed it was true.
They started out with a bias toward private over public or they never would have made the assumption.
I wonder how much of it has to do with the sort of snobbiness that flows thru ed reform. Maybe “private” is always better than “public” in those circles.
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I think you explained much of school reform game exactly with those last two lines. The reformers have always turned to dog-whistle terms like “blighted.”
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Diane: Without hindering the present critique of “reformers,” it should be noted that Catholic and Montessori schools are well-respected, have been around for a very long time, and are known to align themselves with state guides and regulations. (Unfortunately, however, the also-known centuries-old Catholic social missions presently does not extend to their attitudes towards their lay teachers).
I’m not “up” on how either of these institutions relate to public funding (both Catholic and Montessori schools do charge variously for attendance.) However, to lump them together with the problems that have arisen since the DeVosites et al began their destructive legislative escapades is probably an important oversight in making our arguments thorough.
Certainly new legislation will effect these “private” or quasi-private schools too; but overwhelmingly, we can rightly say that these two institutions (and maybe others) are not at all of the same ilk as either “specialist” secular schools or various Protestant schools, with hugely varied ideologies, e.g., as you say: fundamentalist and creationist–and all averse to state or local regulations.
This point, however, is an under-theme, so to speak, and does not affect the general thrust of advocacy for making public schools the best: that is essential for a working democracy that seeks to remain that way: democratic.
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I (desperately) hope that both Catholic and Montessori schools continue to spurn public funds.
Although some Catholic parents may hope to apply voucher funds to Catholic school tuition, it is my understanding that the church’s position is that it wishes to remain privately-funded, so as to maintain its own curriculum without govt interference.
As to Montesssori schools, I cannot imagine how they could accommodate the burden of today’s ‘accountability’-oriented public funding. They remain one of the very few private-school curricula based on evidence-supported early-childhood research– play-based, w/hands-on work materials developed specifically for developing reading & math competence. Opposite to the thrust of many states’ intrusive assessment algorithms attached to ed-subsidies, extending even into preK.
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Hello bethree5, did you know that as a matter of fact, there are many public districts where some or at least one of the elementary schools, is a Montessori school? Teachers are Montessori certified teachers. Parents outside the schools’ boundaries (and within the district) may send their children there.
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I like that term “cradle-Catholic”, I will store that one in the memory banks.
According to EdChoice, Indiana’s program is the largest in the USA. (In terms of participation) (Feb 2015 data).
The program seems to be wildly popular in the Hoosier State, else Hoosiers would get their state government to drop it. (Indiana and Wyoming are the only two states, which do not have a citizen-referendum mechanism to amend the state constitution).
Also, the funds disbursed by the program go to [i]families[/i] not schools. I wish more people would realize this. Parents have the final say, in where they send their children, and thence where the tuition is paid. Parents have the ultimate say in the disbursal of funds. If a (private/parochial) school is not performing to their satisfaction, the parents can withdraw their child from the school, and move them elsewhere. Under the government-school program, you are assigned to a government school based on your zip code. If you are not satisfied with the government school, you have to move to a different district, or pay for your own private/parochial school, or just “suck it up”.
Hoosiers seem to like the school choice program:
Q
In 2011-2012, the first year of the Choice Scholarship Program, 3,911 students and 241 schools
participated. This increased to 9,139 students and 289 schools for the 2012-2013 school year and 19,809
students and 313 schools for the 2013-2014 school year. END Q
(state of Indiana data)
As of 2014, the government schools still have 89.5% of the school children in the state of Indiana.
Many people on the left, who oppose school choice, often push up the religious angle. This is entirely fair. Many religions have schools and universities, and children attend these schools and universities.
I wish I could understand why people get so “lathered up”, about parents using funds received from the public purse to send their children to religiously-affiliated K-12 schools, and then are absolutely silent when the same parents use Pell Grants, and the GI Bill, to send the same children to religiously-affiliated universities like Notre Dame.
Theoretically, a college student could get federal funds (BEOG, GI Bill, ROTC Scholarships) and attend St. Vincent DePaul as a freshman, Brigham Young University as a sophomore, Islamic university their third year, and cap it off at Southern Methodist. The taxpayers would be subsidizing a whole rainbow of faiths!
I wish someone would explain it to me, like I am a “two-year old”. Maybe I am missing something.
And also explain to me, why the anti-choice crowd keeps pushing the constitutional establishment of religion clause, in their efforts to stop school choice. Using public money to purchase education from a religiously-operated school is perfectly constitutional. The Supreme Court settled the matter in Zelman v. Simmons-Harris 2002. With Donald Trump appointing new justices for the US Supreme Court, there is virtually no chance, the SCOTUS will reverse the Zelman decision.
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No, the Indiana voucher program is not wildly popular. Indiana has had two far-rightwing governors and far-rightwing legislature. The only way to roll back vouchers would be for the Democrats to gain control of the legislature and governorship. The overwhelming majority of children in the state attend public schools, not charters or vouchers. Public schools are WILDLY POPULAR.
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Pence was not wildly popular in Indiana on many counts. I saw Pence must go signs all over the place.
Indiana’s loss is the U. S. “gain”.
Many consider Pence worse than Trump if one can believe that but in certain aspects it may well be true
There are none so blind as those who will not see and Pence, like George W before him is absolutely sure that he knows what “God{ wishes for us all.
“God” help us.
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Again with this silly “government” schools label.
They are publicly funded and owned schools with democratically-elected boards that run them, unlike the appointed and secretive boards that run elitist private schools, hiding their decisions from the public and the parents of their students.
Please. If you are going to use the word as a pejorative, (and when used as you did it is intended as one), please refer to all government services to the public as “:government”. No longer refer to your local library as anything but a government library, the people who respond to a burgler as the government police, the people who extinguish your house fire as government fire department, the roads you drive on as government highways, etc.
You lose credibility in whatever merit your argument has when you use provocative adjectives like that – unless you are writing to Tea Baggers and their like.
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rockhound2–I SECOND THAT. cemap4we’s note is so full of double-speak, my eyes flipped over several times while reading it. Diane could use that note as a prime example in her book of how slimy double-speak can be.
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Correction:I misspelled cemab4y in my note.
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Greetings,
I’m not entirely familiar with cemap’s posts or yours; but the government pejorative is often used selectively to public schools. Any interest in why? I wonder if most educators and/or citizens in general, appreciate how deeply the opposition to public/government schooling runs in many places? I think it might be useful to get a better sense of the lay of the land. Interestingly, in the past 10 years or so, home education has increased by around 25%. What might account for this? Surely all these families cannot be wicked pro voucher billionaires!
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Your post seems disingenuous to me.
You argue that Pence’s K-12 voucher program is OK because public Pell Grant & GI Bill funds can be used toward tuition at ‘religiously-funded universities like Notre-Dame.’
Right off the bat, one needs to note that both Pell Grants & GI Bill are not what they were in their heyday: these are grossly underfunded programs (thanks to generations of Republican admins) which support a very tiny percentage of college-goers. Not at all a parallel to state-wide voucher programs for K-12 ed.
Be that as it may: attendance at a ‘religiously-funded U like Notre-Dame’ does not entail any religious classes AT ALL. This is not parallel to the K-12 schools benefiting from ‘Pence’s voucher program [which] ballooned into a $135 million annual bonanza almost exclusively benefiting private religious schools—ranging from those teaching the Koran to Christian schools teaching creationism and the Bible as literal truth.’
You also extol vouchers in lieu of pubschs thus: “Parents have the ultimate say in the disbursal of funds. If a (private/parochial) school is not performing to their satisfaction, the parents can withdraw their child from the school, and move them elsewhere. Under the government-school program, you are assigned to a government school based on your zip code. If you are not satisfied with the government school, you have to move to a different district, or pay for your own private/parochial school, or just ‘suck it up.'” This argument completely ignores the fact that “government schools” are a creature of YOUR community. YOU as a citizen bear the responsibility of monitoring YOUR municipality’s school district– whose ed performance, curriculum, budget, salaries etc are available online. YOU elect the board of ed that runs your local district’s school, & YOU can attend BOE mtgs & voice your opinion, form pressure groups to influence changes.
It’s called democracy. If YOU choose to opt out in favor of whatever market whims afford you as ed alternatives– pay for it yourself.
One more thing: the 2002 Zellman-Harris decision was about a measly $2500 voucher designed to give inner-city Cleveland families a leg up on privsch alternatives. The court decided that even tho available alternatives included religious schools, the voucher plan was not pushing religious schools, so it was OK. One might get quite a different result in the case of Pence’s Indiana voucher plan, where vouchers are provided to families who can afford private schools, & $130million in taxpayer funds go to 316 schools which are ALL religious schools.
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As bethree5 already pointed out, and which I will reiterate, religiously affiliated universities do not necessarily indoctrinate their students into that religion. A k-8 Catholic school education includes going to to Mass for special occasions (at least), and some religious study which varies wildly by school. Catholic universities, on the other hand, do not expect you to take religious classes or attend Mass. What Liberty University expects of its students, I have no idea.
Also, Pell Grants and such seem to be as rare as hens’ teeth.
And post secondary education is different, in my mind. Students attending any private university can and should be eligible for public grants. It is k-12 where this is problematic.
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OK, Why?
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Your point is well-taken. 89.5% of Indiana school children attend government schools. The balance attend alternate schools. Obviously, government schools are more popular that private/parochial schools.
However, the program seems to be popular with the families who are in the program. According to the state of Indiana, the program started with 3,911 students, and then went to 9,139, and then 19,809 in 2013-2014. and in 2015, there were more than 29,100 students in the program. I used to work in statistical analysis (US Bureau of the Census). This is what statisticians call “exponential growth”.
School choice has support from all across the spectrum. There are democrats who support choice. Not all Republicans are enthused about school choice, as there is very little political reward in fighting for poor children to leave failing schools.
Hoosiers, if they are opposed to school choice, can ask their state representatives to end the program anytime.
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Many voucher schools are failing schools but that’s ok with rightwingers.
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The politicians are failing left and right. Let’s make report cards for them. Better yet, have them teach for a few days in my shoes and then we will determine who is failing.
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It’s hard to imagine the majority Republic legislature listening to the majority of the state’s parents who clearly support public schools and annually request increased funding for them.
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We have to figure out why so many people vote against their self interest. Against government programs that support them.
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Diane: In a word: Propaganda, concerted for years. And as you know, it’s bigger than education. With climate change, some have put their hopes in the Trump children who might have a different view and set of standards. We can hope.
But with all of the extra time you have (. . . !) I do suggest you peruse the last chapters in Hannah Arendt’s book on “The Origins of Totalitarianism.” But I’m sure there are many other writings about “playbook” propaganda out there. (Probably most at the service of advertising.)
I have heard that the Russians have such a playbook from their earlier crazy-making Gulag days (of sorts); and Anne Richards (bhh) thought for sure that Karl Rove read his copy every morning like others read their Bible. But I’ve often thought that embedded in the above work is a similarly concerted way to detect and deter it. It just needs to be teased out as an “opposition playbook.”
Also, since I wrote the below note to “Durham Dad,” I have entertained this two-part question: First, how to get temporarily happy parents (like Dad) to understand the depth of the problem they are party to and, once they understand, secondly, what can D-Dad and those like him do to help with public schools while he is still affording a good education for their children?
The short answer, I think, is if D-Dad did understand, and if he has time, perhaps he would be inclined to look into it and perhaps even spread the word and advocate at the state level for public schools?
Also, as an aside, I don’t know anyone who is involved in the politically active Black community, and who rejected the idea of “school choice” as “the best thing since the civil rights movement.” However, I have often wondered if they really did “get” the larger issues–that they were, basically, being taken for a ride, so to speak; or if they rejected it for some other reason? What was it that helped them to look past the quick-fix thinking and $$$ for their children and to consider what was actually happening from a more comprehensive view–that, as you say, they would be acting against their own self-interest?
Here is a replay of my note to Durham Dad:
Durham Dad: I think that the horrible state of the public schools you speak of is a part of the overall plan of people like Devos. (Good grief–they don’t even hide it. Greed is good.)
But starve the beast (public schools) so it can’t do its job, then wave charters at woeful parents who can take their vouchers elsewhere. I don’t blame you for caring for your children–who would; but you are also right to suggest (a glimmer of hope?) that the public schools CAN and should be improved and that you would return to them if they were.
That improvement comes “from above” and from savvy tax payers. Unfortunately, the “above” is too often bought and paid for by “reformers,” and the tax payers don’t understand the “dark side” of the long term plan they are involved in–and if they do understand, they still have children now whom they don’t want to send to “drug-infested” etc., public schools–and so they can easily be used and manipulated by those reformers who, over the longer term, want the whole of “public” education to disappear.
From my understanding of this blog, Diane is educating those who will listen and understand how, in fact, democracy is being hoodwinked by such reformers and made into an oligarchy or worse.
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I do not see this. If a majority of Hoosiers decide that the Indiana school voucher program is not working to their satisfaction, the citizens have every right to communicate their dissatisfaction to the state government/legislature.
The legislators have the option of following their constituents desires, or telling the majority of the voters to forget about it.
If the politicians do not enact legislation that is in conformance with the people’s desires, then the politicians have to face the electorate at the polls, and get voted out of office.
The citizenry is the “boss”.
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Dream on.
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clearly that concept didn’t apply to the last national election where the citizenry overwhelmingly voted for the losing candidate. While not knowing how badly Indiana is gerrymandered and how extensive it’s voter suppression laws are, I think it’s naive to assume that it is as simple as you describe.
I hope for the sake of Indiana what you describe is true. But I also can assure you that the vast majority of Indiana residents support public schools over private charters and equally support reserving public money for public schools, not inadequate, private religious schools. If it were otherwise, the numbers would be different.
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Q clearly that concept didn’t apply to the last national election where the citizenry overwhelmingly voted for the losing candidate. While not knowing how badly Indiana is gerrymandered and how extensive it’s voter suppression laws are, I think it’s naive to assume that it is as simple as you describe.
I hope for the sake of Indiana what you describe is true. But I also can assure you that the vast majority of Indiana residents support public schools over private charters and equally support reserving public money for public schools, not inadequate, private religious schools. If it were otherwise, the numbers would be different. END Q
I don’t follow your remarks. In the last national election, the candidate who lost the popular vote, won the electoral college. Just like John Quincy Adams, Benjamin Harrison, Rutherford B. Hayes and George W. Bush. The US citizenry in 2016, overwhelmingly voted for the loser. Look up “loser” in the dictionary, you will see Hillary Clinton’s picture.
Do you have any data that indicates that Indiana denies its citizens voting rights?
I do not think that it is naive to assume that Indiana is a democracy, and that the people can express their wishes and desires to their elected representatives. The state government can ignore the people, and then stand for re-election.
Do you have any data that indicates that Hoosiers are opposed to the school choice plan that is already in place? Indiana has (at this time) the largest (participation) school choice plan in the nation. If it is as unpopular as you suggest, then why haven’t Hoosiers told their state government to repeal it?
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Please consider closer reading of my response. As I clearly stated, the US population “overwhelmingly voted FOR the losing candidate”, and that was HRC. A minority of the US population voted for the winner of the race. There is nothing in my original statement that is inconsistent with the outcome of the election, or any of the other elections you cite. In all of those cases the majority of the US citizens voted for the losing candidate while the minority candidate won in the Electoral College. Why so defensive?
I also admitted my lack of detailed knowledge about the extent of gerrymandering and voter suppression in Indiana. That said, with a Republic Governor and legislature it is very likely those items factor in to how votes count in Indiana. I said nothing about “democracy” in Indiana. I just speculated if Indiana suffered under similar laws like those found in other states run by the Republic Party such as NC, WS, OH, and MI – all states with extensive gerrymandering in both federal and state level voting districts AND laws meant to suppress the vote of its people.
Finally, as for supplying the data you asked for?…I did not state that Hoosiers are opposed to the school choice plan, I stated that Hoosiers are just more supportive of public schools – using your own figures. If only a small portion of Hoosier parents take advantage of these programs it is safe to infer the majority do not and thus support traditional American public education.
You have a bit of an ax to grind and I don’t have the time anymore to sharpen your rhetoric and comments. I wish you well.
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Take it from a Hoosier and a public educator, Hoosiers have asked numerous times and have tried to stop vouchers, to no avail. With a super majority of far-right leaning ALEC acolytes running every aspect of Indiana government, supporters of public schools are generally shown a rigid middle finger by Brian Bosma, Bob Behning, Luke Kenley, David Long and their ilk.
Glenda Ritz trounced Tony Bennett as state super. soundly in 2012. Governor Empty-Suit (Pence) then went about circumventing the will of the voters by creating a phony-baloney appointed board to do his bidding and played obstructionist politics at every turn.
Ritz got swept up in the state-wide loss in ’16, due to straight-party voting aimed mostly at HRC, funded by the Kochtopus. I never even saw a television ad by her opponent.
With Empty-Suit where he is and Herr Drumpf’s appointment of the Amway Queen to DOE chief, public education in America will be extended that same rigid middle finger.
“Death Valley Days, straight ahead…” Frank Zappa
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cemab4y’s statements border on great performance art. One theme is the tailoring of the idea of resentment (us vs. them) into the distilled use of the phrase “government schools” to attempt to create a wedge (resentment) with supporters of public education, a phrase cemab4y seems to take pains to avoid.
Give me teacher autonomy and the freedom to be creative over some contrived idea of “school choice.”
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The government, runs the government (public) schools. Many of the contributors here extol the virtues of how the public schools are run by the (elected) school boards. And then they are upset that the elected state representatives (example:Indiana) are not responsive to the needs of the citizens.
Many claim that the majority of Hoosiers are opposed to the school choice plan, but the state government keeps it in place, anyway.
By this logic, the majority of people should hold sway, but they do not.
How can this be the case at the state level, but the same people naively expect the local populace to hold sway with the school boards?
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Are any of these schools Islamic? Because if not, local Muslims need to get on the ball and open some private schools. I’ll bet that the electorate won’t like that.
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I live in Fairfax county Virginia. There is an Islamic school just down the road in Herndon VA. See http://www.kaa-herndon.com/
When school choice comes to Virginia, I can foresee local Muslim parents enrolling their children in this school, and having the money that would otherwise have gone to a public school, which the parents are not using, rebated to them in the form of a voucher.
Some years ago, I applied to teach at another Islamic school here in Northern VA.
The people of Fairfax county are perfectly happy to live with Muslims, there is a Mosque just up the road on US1 near Mount Vernon.
Our nation has a splendid tradition of Freedom of Religion. Every morning, when I hear the muezzin (loudspeaker) with the call to prayer, I praise God, that I can live in a nation, where all faiths can practice freely.
Once, a neighborhood kid heard the Arabic from the loudspeaker, and he asked me, “What is that?”. I answered, “It’s the sound of Freedom”.
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cemaby,
You have said in several comments that Fairfax County has excellent public schools. Why should Fairfax County have vouchers for religious schools?
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Q: cemaby,
You have said in several comments that Fairfax County has excellent public schools. Why should Fairfax County have vouchers for religious schools? END Q
You state correctly, that Fairfax county VA has many excellent public schools. Nevertheless, I believe strongly that the citizens of Virginia, should have the choice of opting out of public schools, and sending their children to the school of their choice. (Example: the excellent Islamic schools in Fairfax county).
The commonwealth of Virginia does not have a school choice plan in place at this time, But- It is coming. see:
http://pilotonline.com/news/government/politics/virginia/private-school-voucher-legislation-advances-in-virginia-general-assembly/article_8e70a6c1-b76f-52a9-9c49-dc7620864957.html
In the article, there is a comment:
Q “Good public schools have nothing, zero, to fear from competition,” said Del. Scott Lingamfelter, R-Prince William County. END Q.
The public schools here (Fairfax. also Loudoun county) are uniformly excellent. They have nothing to fear from competition.
If parents are satisfied, then the parents will “stay put” with excellence.
Virginia has a “mix” of public, private, charter, and parochial schools. There are only 9 (nine) charter schools in VA at this time. These charter schools serve 0.09% of the school age children in the commonwealth
See
https://ballotpedia.org/School_choice_in_Virginia
The existing private schools serve 9.69% of the school-age children, now, notwithstanding the excellent public schools which are here in Virginia. With school choice, the number of children served, by private schools will most likely increase.
So, I ask you, should Virginia parents have the option of leaving good schools, and getting a rebate on their taxes, or should parents only have the option of leaving poorly-performing schools?
I say, both options! Give parents the power to determine where their education dollars will be spent. Public, Private, Parochial.
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Q cemaby,
You have said in several comments that Fairfax County has excellent public schools. Why should Fairfax County have vouchers for religious schools?
END Q
Here is another excellent reason. The Commonwealth of Virginia is working towards giving parents of special-needs children, more freedom in choosing the educational opportunities for their children.
see
http://pilotonline.com/news/government/virginia/virginia-assembly-approves-state-grants-for-private-school-tuition/article_6e7eb51f-9f4c-56e4-9d55-1c6a6a1787dc.html
Public Schools, even excellent public schools, often do not have the facilities or necessary equipment, or specially-trained teachers, that are necessary to properly educate special-needs children.
Vouchers and school-choice programs, will work to alleviate this. By giving parents greater flexibility, private/parochial schools (that have the necessary facilities/equipment/teachers will step in a meet this important need.
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This may come as a surprise, but religious schools never gave the staff or facilities to teach children with disabilities, nor do charter schools, unless they are created just for those students.
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Do you have a problem with an Islamic school? There are Islamic schools are over the USA, including one just up the road from me. Freedom of religion, is guaranteed in our constitution (first amendment).
I am a Latter-Day Saint (aka Mormon). The electorate in Missouri, in 1838, did not like the Mormons. The result was an extermination order, the “final solution” to the Mormon question.
see http://mormonhistoricsites.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/MHS2.1Hartley.pdf
Are there any other religions, which should not be allowed to operate, or establish schools?
“Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves; and, under a just God, can not long retain it.”
-Abraham Lincoln
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I don’t have an issue with Islam. My point was meant to be sarcastic. While many people have no problems with Christian schools, I’m sure many would lose their minds over Islamic schools.
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I love choice. If you choose a religious or private school, pay for it yourself.
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Exactly. I sent my younger daughter to our parish school for 7th-8th grade, not for the Catholic aspect, but because she needed a smaller environment and people who knew her (and me). I paid for it out of pocket and never would have dreamed that I deserved tax payer money to do so.
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Q Exactly. I sent my younger daughter to our parish school for 7th-8th grade, not for the Catholic aspect, but because she needed a smaller environment and people who knew her (and me). I paid for it out of pocket and never would have dreamed that I deserved tax payer money to do so.END Q
You exercised your free choice to enroll your child in a Roman Catholic school. Your financial situation enabled you to support two(2) school systems.
Today, only the wealthy can afford to support multiple school systems. Vouchers will extend the freedom to people of lower income levels.
Prior to sending your child to the Catholic school, you had no qualms about using taxpayer money to educate your child at a public school.
Vouchers will enable parents to educate their children, at the school of their choice. Just like you did, for your child.
Will you continue to deny this choice to other people, and continue to exercise it for yourself?
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Q I don’t have an issue with Islam. My point was meant to be sarcastic. While many people have no problems with Christian schools, I’m sure many would lose their minds over Islamic schools.END Q
I still do not understand. Here in Fairfax County VA, there are many excellent religiously-affiliated schools. One is the King Abdullah Academy. See http://www.kaa-herndon.com/
This excellent school opened this year, without any objections from the people here.
Islam is already the third largest religion in the USA, and it is growing fast. Certainly, more Islamic schools will be opening in the USA.
When school choice comes, and parents are empowered to enroll their children in Islamic schools, and redeem their vouchers in the madras, how can anyone object?
And why would people lose their minds?
Our nation has constitutionally protected freedom of religion. And religions operate schools for their young people.
The sound of the muezzin, is the sound of freedom.
“We must learn to live together as brothers, or we will surely perish as fools”- Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Cema4yb,
Did you never hear of separation of church and state? Did you know that most state constitutions prohibit spending public money on religious schools? Are you wiser than Thomas Jefferson?
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cemab4y: Catholic schools have been around for a very long time and few, if any complained about it. So what’s the difference between (A) Catholic schools, or Islamic schools, or Montessori schools, or other already-established schools, on the one hand, and on the other hand, (B) the neo-charter-voucher-privatization schools that are supported by DeVos and the parade of oligarchs who fund, lobby, and advertise for them?
I think we need to answer that question in a systematic study of some kind; but just offhand, (A) schools are interested in curriculum that includes their religious meaning; but they are still educational institutions that still follow state, federal, and field standards and regulations for their curricula. We also don’t see (A) schools’ “owners” (that I know of) systematically starving public schools by drawing away monies with vouchers or by actively lobbying against them. The Catholic schools I know have no racial barriers.
Also, (A) schools (it seem to me) don’t see public schools as competitors or as at their core ways to make money or to bring educational institutions to Wall Street as business enterprises, or as evil (as, variably, DeVos and others do), (They do compete on the sports fields sometimes.) In other words, (A) schools add to the communities they live, as do their churches, without trying to disrupt the secular political structures or to change those communities in radical ways. Finally, and again just offhand, schools run by religious institutions are a part of a larger movement of people and sometimes-worldwide orders (like the Catholics and their overall allegiance to their own well-established rules and regulations–not the same as (B) schools that are run by anyone with the money to open one and who can organize a hit-and-miss corporate structure that can change form faster than a chameleon.
The track records of religious and Montessori-type schools do not shape up AT ALL like the neo-private (B) schools (pun intended now) that DeVos et al are on fire about.
I think that’s just a start–but (I’ve said this here before) I think it would be extremely misguided on our part NOT to recognize the great difference between (A) and (B) schools in our arguments. And we certainly don’t want to either sully-by-association well-run religious schools or give DeVos et al a cover for their rapacity by allowing them to “blend in” with the real value of having religious institutions and their schools in communities across the land.
Of course, no one wants ANY religious school to be a cover for fostering terrorists. But here’s the twist–with the break of (B) schools from their democratic foundations (which they do on principle by becoming private and deregulated) they open the gates for ANY of those schools (A or B) to much more easily become associated with fostering terrorists. Who will regulate them and their curricula? The rednecks and skinheads turned-Nazi who are already breaking into cars in the parking lots of mosques?
I can hear DeVos now: “Ooops.” But of course we are talking above about how things are NOW. But when Trump gets into office, what’s going to happen to government regulations that, for all of the problem we have with them, are still directly related to the notion of fairness and justice under the law? My guess is DeVos will fix that fast–and make draconian regulations that are ONLY about Muslim schools. . . .
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Q I love choice. If you choose a religious or private school, pay for it yourself.END Q
Of course, parents should pay for the educational costs of their children. Whether home-schooled, private, parochial, or public. This is the beauty of vouchers and savings accounts.
Parents will continue to pay taxes for education (and we non-parents as well). The only difference, is that parents with school-age children, will be able to direct the spending into the school (or home) that the children attend.
What’s wrong with that?
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Most Americans do not want the government to pay for the religious education of children, not even their own. This was a principle well understood by the Founding Fathers.
Clearly, you disagree with Benjamin Franklin, who said,
“When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself so that its professors are obliged to call for the help of the civil power, ’tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.”
And you disagree with Thomas Jefferson, who insisted upon a wall of separation between church and state.
Religious neutrality has been the foundation of our civil order. No religion is supported by the state. I defer to the wisdom of the Founders.
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Q Did you never hear of separation of church and state? Did you know that most state constitutions prohibit spending public money on religious schools? Are you wiser than Thomas Jefferson? END Q
I am an engineer, not a constitutional lawyer. Of course, I have heard of the 1st amendment. Separation of church and state is not explicitly set forth in the constitution. Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion. This means, that the government shall not set up a state-operated church and run the church with public funds. No more, no less.
I am aware of the “Blaine Amendments” which prohibit the spending of state tax funds in religious schools.
Nevertheless, citizens are empowered to direct their governmentally provided funds to procure non-religious services from religious institutions.
You can redeem a Pell Grant at a religious university.
You can utilize medicare insurance at a Jewish hospital.
You can redeem your food stamps (SNAP) at a Catholic food pantry.
You can use your GI Bill benefits at a vocational school run by a religious institution.
and You can redeem your school voucher at a K-12 school at a religiously-affiliated school.
The Supreme Court ruled this in Zelman v. Simmons-Harris 2002. Here is the summary of the case:
Q In a 5-4 opinion delivered by Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, the Court held that the (voucher) program does not violate the Establishment Clause. The Court reasoned that, because Ohio’s program is part of Ohio’s general undertaking to provide educational opportunities to children, government aid reaches religious institutions only by way of the deliberate choices of numerous individual recipients and the incidental advancement of a religious mission, or any perceived endorsement, is reasonably attributable to the individual aid recipients not the government. Chief Justice Rehnquist wrote that the “Ohio program is entirely neutral with respect to religion. It provides benefits directly to a wide spectrum of individuals, defined only by financial need and residence in a particular school district. It permits such individuals to exercise genuine choice among options public and private, secular and religious. The program is therefore a program of true private choice.” END Q (source Oyez.com)
And, no , I do not think that I am wiser than Tom Jefferson. I do believe that since he was such a supporter of freedom, that he would be highly support of providing parents with free choice, in selecting the education of their children.
I understand, that you and many people are opposed to school choice. But the constitutional issue has been solved, and people are redeeming school vouchers at religiously-affiliated schools all over the USA.
The issue may come before the court again. But, do you think that a Supreme Court, with Trump appointees on it, will ever reverse Zelman. V. Simmons-Harris?
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No, Jefferson would not have approved the use of public funds for religious schools.
I was the NEH Jefferson Schlar in 1993, and I read an 8-volume collection of his writings to prepare my speeches. Jefferson was opposed to any financial dealings between church and state.
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Cema4by,
Why do you write the same thing over and over and over? This is a pro-public school blog. You persuade no one with your repetitious rants in support of vouchers.
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He/she writes the same things over and over, Diane, because, although cloaking himself/herself in some “reasonable-sounding” phrases, he/she is a troll.
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Zorba–ditto–probably using the cover of legitimate religious institutions’ schools, like a Trojan Horse, in order to get through the wall and into the City with its business mentality and oligarchic intentions. Here’s the edited end of my other note, with a prediction, which was probably too long for anyone to read:
I think it would be extremely misguided on our part NOT to recognize the great difference between (A) (religious and other schools that have been around a long time) and (B) (the privatization/Devos) kinds of schools in our arguments. And we certainly don’t want to either sully-by-association well-run religious or Montessori-type schools, or give DeVos et al a cover for their rapacity by allowing them to “blend in” with the real value of having religious institutions and their schools in our many communities across the land.
Of course, no one wants ANY religious school to be a cover for fostering terrorists. But here’s the twist–with the break of (B/Devos-type) schools from their democratic foundations (which they do on principle by becoming private and deregulated) they open the gates for ANY of those schools (A or B) to much more easily become associated with fostering terrorists. Who will regulate them and their curricula? The rednecks and skinheads turned-Nazi who are already breaking into cars in the parking lots of mosques?
I can hear DeVos now: “Ooops.” But of course we are talking above about how things are NOW. But when Trump gets into office, what’s going to happen to government regulations that, for all of the problem we have with them, are still directly related to “the people” and to the notion of fairness and justice under the law?
My guess is DeVos will fix that fast–and make draconian regulations that are ONLY about Muslim schools, if she allows them at all.
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Q Most Americans do not want the government to pay for the religious education of children, not even their own. This was a principle well understood by the Founding Fathers.
Clearly, you disagree with Benjamin Franklin, who said,
“When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself so that its professors are obliged to call for the help of the civil power, ’tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.”
And you disagree with Thomas Jefferson, who insisted upon a wall of separation between church and state.
Religious neutrality has been the foundation of our civil order. No religion is supported by the state. I defer to the wisdom of the Founders.
END Q
I agree that most Americans do not want the government to pay for the religious education of their children. (I am a non-parent, and I do not want this to occur, either).
Like Brother Franklin, I am a Freemason. We support freedom of religion, and are absolutely opposed to any establishment of religion, or use of tax dollars to support religion.
I have no disagreement with Brother Franklin on this point. My religion is supported by the contributions of the membership. No religion can demand financial support from the civil government.
I have no disagreement with Thomas Jefferson, in his opinions. He wrote a letter to a Baptist congregation in Danbury, Conn, in 1801. he postulated the concept of a “wall of separation”.
I am appalled that the president-elect has called for a registry for Muslims, and possibly banning Muslims from immigration.
For a more precise view of the concept of “wall of separation”, see
http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/133032
Religious neutrality is an excellent concept, and I support it more than most people.
There is no constitutional issue, with respect to parents exercising school choice, and sending their children to religiously-affiliated schools.
Find some other way to express your objection, because “That dog won’t hunt”.
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Q No, Jefferson would not have approved the use of public funds for religious schools.END Q.
I am an electronics man, not a Jefferson scholar. But I do believe that Jefferson would be opposed to directly spending public funds to promote or establish any religion. He did support freedom of religion.
“But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.” – Thomas Jefferson.
I am strongly pro-public school. I live in a county with some of the finest public schools in the nation. I would be delighted to send my children to them.
If a person is opposed to educational vouchers, then they should support educational savings accounts, so that parents can have school choice, through this medium. There is no possibility of any constitutional question, since the funds do not ever pass through government hands.
I am for anything that works! Some children are home-schooled. The public schools, should be glad to have these children participate in extra-curricular activities. Sadly, most public schools do not extend this option, notwithstanding the fact that parents continue to pay school taxes, and accept no academic emoluments from the public schools.
I would love to see more states pick up on supporting residential prep schools for their gifted and talented students.
See
https://www.imsa.edu/
This academy is publicly-financed, and staffed with public school teachers. Would you be in favor of other states emulating this concept?
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Cema4by,
I am not posting any more comments about your love for vouchers. You are a broken record. Go post at Education Post, the 74, or anywhere else.
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Diane–I’ve been watching this interchange–so if I may add this to cemab4y:
Diane and many others, including myself, have been over the “whys” and “wherefore’s” about the differences between public and private education, and especially DeVos’ (and all) call for reducing or eliminating public oversight, accountability, and regulations. it seems you either (1) didn’t read any of those many and detailed posts (including the one I wrote this morning) or (2) you read but didn’t understand them.
If you are not a troll and are honestly interested in this subject, I can only say you should go back and read several of those posts that discuss why public education is so important to a democratic nation and why the oligarchic, ALEC, and others who push for and fund the movement towards vouchers and private education are so damaging to that same democratic nation. If you have some argument against THOSE arguments for public education and against privatization, then let’s hear it.
Further, what is so difficult to understand about these people’s “tag” of “school choice” being the equivalent to “let’s starve and then get rid of public education” for their own narrow and democracy-destroying interests?
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Thanks, Catherine,
People like Cema4by are like a Boston Red Sox fan who comes into the Yankees dugout to try to convert us.
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Sigh . . .
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According to the Mother Jones article, there is at least one Indiana madras involved. And a rather obvious connection to the war on terror…
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Just read the article. Interesting. There’s also a photo of Pence with the students. I’m surprised this info of the school getting so much money hasn’t created a problem, or the state is intentionally downplaying it.
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Q I love choice. If you choose a religious or private school, pay for it yourself. END Q
I also support choice. And I believe in self-reliance, and in parents supporting the best possible education for their children. I have no skin in this game, being a non-parent, but I am gung-ho for publicly-supported education. I am an engineer, not an economist. But everyone can agree, that it is much more cost-effective to educate children, than to incarcerate adults.
Of course, people who home-school, or send their children to non-public schools, should bear the costs. I gladly support the excellent schools here in Fairfax county, VA. I want to live in an educated society. The children who graduate from the schools here, will be working to support my society, when I am retired.
But, I ask you. Is it fair, for parents who are struggling to meet tuition payments to their school of choice, and also support a public school, that they are not using? I say NO. It is not fair. These parents deserve a break, and all of the support that society can muster, to assist them exercising their freedom of choice.
We all have to live in the world which will be populated by the children who are in school today. Can we find the courage, to enact the legislation, which will support these children?
” We live in a world, in which the only constant, is change” – Heraclitus
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Q He/she writes the same things over and over, Diane, because, although cloaking himself/herself in some “reasonable-sounding” phrases, he/she is a troll. END Q
Sometimes I re-articulate the same ideas. Agreed. I do not understand why the opponents of parental school choice, have to push the constitutional argument, when the Supreme Court settled the matter over 14 years ago.
As to my gender, I am a male, 62 years old, telecommunications engineer. I have been interested in education issues for many years. My grandmother was a schoolmarm in a one room all-grades school in Grant County KY. (like you see in the western movies). My sister is a certified teacher in KY, but she works as a pension investment specialist.
Since I am a citizen, and paying my share of the taxes to support education, I have as much right as anyone to influence education policy, just as if I had 10 children.
After I retire, I plan to teach in a public school, if I can get the alternate certification.
I am no troll. see http://www.cemab4y.blogspot.com
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