Michael Arnovitz writes here about the attacks on Hillary Clinton and the reasons behind them.
Arnovitz probes the hatred for Hillary that is so pronounced on both the left and the right. And he notes that until she starting running for office, she was one of the most admired women in the world.
He writes:
To conservatives she is a radical left-wing insurgent who has on multiple occasions been compared to Mikhail Suslov, the Soviet Kremlin’s long-time Chief of Ideology. To many progressives (you know who you are), she is a Republican fox in Democratic sheep’s clothing, a shill for Wall Street who doesn’t give a damn about the working class. The fact that these views could not possibly apply to the same person does not seem to give either side pause. Hillary haters on the right and the left seem perfectly happy to maintain their mutually incompatible delusions about why she is awful. The only thing both teams seem to share is the insistence that Hillary is a Machiavellian conspirator and implacable liar, unworthy of society’s trust.
And this claim of unabated mendacity is particularly interesting, because while it is not the oldest defamation aimed at Hillary, it is the one that most effortlessly glides across partisan lines. Indeed, for a surprisingly large percentage of the electorate, the claim that Hillary is innately dishonest is simply accepted as a given. It is an accusation and conviction so ingrained in the conversation about her that any attempt to even question it is often met with shock. And yet here’s the thing: it’s not actually true. Politifact, the Pulitzer prize-winning fact-checking project, determined for example that Hillary was actually the most truthful candidate (of either Party) in the 2016 election season. And in general Politifact has determined that Hillary is more honest than most (but not all) politicians they have tracked over the years.
He reviews data about her polling numbers and concludes:
So what do we see in this data? What I see is that the public view of Hillary Clinton does not seem to be correlated to “scandals” or issues of character or whether she murdered Vince Foster. No, the one thing that seems to most negatively and consistently affect public perception of Hillary is any attempt by her to seek power. Once she actually has that power her polls go up again. But whenever she asks for it her numbers drop like a manhole cover.
Especially interesting is his commentary on her speaking fees, which Donald Trump points to as a mark of corruption:
Money — OK let’s talk about her money. Hillary has a lot of it. And she has earned most of it through well-paid speaking fees. And the idea of getting paid $200,000 or more for a single speech seems so ludicrous to many people that they assume that it simply must be some form of bribery. But the truth is that there is a large, well-established and extremely lucrative industry for speaking and appearance fees. And within that industry many celebrities, sports stars, business leaders and former politicians get paid very well. At her most popular for example, Paris Hilton was being paid as much as $750,000 just to make an appearance. Kylie Jenner was once paid over $100,000 to go to her own birthday party, and to this day Vanilla Ice gets $15,000 simply to show up with his hat turned sideways.
And let’s talk about the more cerebral cousin of the appearance agreement, which is the speaking engagement. Is $200k really that unusual? In fact “All American Speakers”, the agency that represents Clinton, currently represents 135 people whose MINIMUM speaking fee is $200,000. Some of the luminaries that get paid this much include: Guy Fieri, Ang Lee, Cara Delevingne, Chelsea Handler, Elon Musk, Mehmet Oz, Michael Phelps, Nate Berkus, and “Larry the Cable Guy”. And no that last one is not a joke. And if you drop the speaking fee to $100k, the number of people they represent jumps to over 500. At $50,000 the number jumps to over 1,200. And All American Speakers are obviously not the only agency that represents speakers. So there are in fact thousands of people getting paid this kind of money to give a speech.
For millions of Americans struggling to pay their bills, the very idea that someone can make $100,000 or more for just giving a speech or hanging out at a Vegas nightclub is obscene. But as Richard Nixon used to say, “don’t hate the player, hate the game.” Hillary didn’t invent the speaking engagement industry, and she isn’t anywhere near the first person to make a lot of money from it. And while her fees are in the upper range of what speakers make, neither they nor the total amount of money she has made are unusual. It’s just unusual FOR A WOMAN.
And yes, I’m back on that, because I feel compelled to point out that before he ran for President in 2007, Rudy Giuliani was making about $700,000 a month in speaking fees with an average of $270k per speech. It’s estimated that in the 5 years before his run he earned as much as $40 million in speaking fees. Nobody cared, no accusations of impropriety were made, and there was almost no media interest. So why did Giuliani get a pass, while Hillary stands accused of inherent corruption for making less money doing the same thing?
Arnovitz does not write about Hillary Clinton’s stance on education. Perhaps he doesn’t know or care about it. Personally, I do not expect her to join the Network for Public Education. She may turn out to be as bad as Obama on education. My expectations are low. But the alternative is far worse: Putting a racist, misogynistic, unethical, self-serving, narcissistic, jingoist bully in the White House is unthinkable.
Yes. Let’s be clear. This in not a normal moment with the usual depressing choice between a right-wing Republican and a pandering centrist Democrat without much real regard or empathy for working people and the poor. The threat is a society that turns sharply to authoritarianism and unleashes dangerous hatred-driven nativism. Yes, we need to build a movement for justice. That will be far, far harder under Trump. Right now, at this time, voting for a third party or abstaining is not a vote of conscience. It is turning your back on your neighbors who will suffer sanctioned repression under Trump. It is setting back the potential for building the movement we need.
http://www.arthurcamins.com
Sorry, Arthur, but that dog won’t hunt. Prove to us that things will be worse for the social justice movement under Trump than under Clinton. Cite some policies that Trump has implemented while in political office that are more egregiously unjust than those Hillary promoted when she’s been in a position to influence or shape our laws and policies. Oh, right: Trump’s never held office. Has no comparable track record in government.
That doesn’t mean I’d vote for him or urge others to do so. Quite the contrary. But you are utterly wrong about third party or write-in candidates. I’m not hearing a lot of people planning to abstain. I’m surely not. Sanders hasn’t stopped his campaign, even if he did endorse Hillary and pledged to defeat Trump. I believe he’s fully aware that many, likely a majority, of his supporters will NOT cast their votes for Hillary Clinton. Hearing more attempts by liberals to guilt-trip us into voting for someone we loathe isn’t going to change the facts.
There is no historical record in the US about the election of someone like Trump. But there is around the world. It never turned out well. In fact, it’s the opposite. Atrocities followed. I am not opposed to building a third progressive party. But it will not happen in time to defeat Trump.
Could you cite some examples, Arthur?
Meanwhile, WHEN is it the right time for leaving the rigged system of US elections? It’s never the right time for liberals. They ALWAYS see some looming ogre who must be defeated before action can be taken against the far-larger beast. Sorry. Been there, done that, and gotten nothing towards fighting real evil that kills and cripples real people by biting my tongue and holding my nose. Never again.
Hitler, Mussolini, Juan Peron, Putin
Not a single one of whom is similar to Donald Trump: a moneyed kid who grew up rich and became more so. You can revile him (and I certainly do), but there’s just no basis to suggest he’s got the sorts of “issues” that inform those people. I figured you had no one and you don’t.
Mussolini, by the way, started out as a prominent member of the Italian Socialist Party. He split with them over their stance on WW I neutrality for Italy. Peron served in several government positions before being elected president of Argentina. Putin was KGB/military for a long time before entering politics (maybe you’re thinking of George Herbert Walker Bush for a comparison?) I won’t waste time pointing out the ludicrousness of your mentioning Hitler.
None of the men you mention is “like Trump,” nor would reasonable people expect him to try for world conquest. But his big mouth and propensity for saying offensive things about various groups of people are sufficient for you to put him in the same category as Hitler and Mussolini. Nice. What about Hillary’s charming comments after the death of Khaddafi? Let’s start there, shall we?
Paul: I will only vote for Hillary if I am the deciding vote in NY .That said ; Trump is no more dangerous to have with his finger on the button than Clinton. He probably will be no more authoritarian than Obama has been ,with the crushing of Occupy coordinated by the Feds and the prosecution of whistle blowers . He will not be the first President that we have had during the Nuclear age to have dementia, or be an imbecile.
He will be the first Republican President to my knowledge to come in with both houses of Congress and the Court, that he will control, since before Eisenhower or Roosevelt ? There used to be Liberal Republicans. .He will work with right wing Ryan to devastate working Americans.
That will be devastating to working class Americans for decades. National”Right to Work “, Unions as ineffective as they have been will be gone. Labor Law already tilted to employers will be eviscerated. Prevailing wage gone . Public Schools ,Public anything gone. Social Security employer contributions gone,the program will be privatized. The tax burden will effectively be shifted to the middle class and the poor. While services are cut. Voting rights eviscerated.
He will build a Wall but he will insure that all of the low wage labor Corporate America needs is able to come through the front door on permits held by their employers, making them wage slaves. On the higher certainly not high end of the wage scale he loves H1Bs and thinks we need more tech, wage slaves.
Is there anything that I have mentioned or left out that is not right wing Republican doctrine. So I say if you live in a solid blue State vote how you like ,if you live in a swing state, what ever you can afford. I will be glad to introduce you to my friend Chris. He closed down the old tower at LaGuardia Airport ,of course he spent 20 years not being an air traffic controller after Reagan fired him.
I’m not sure on what grounds you would suggest that Trump has dementia: party to some medical information not released to the general public? “Imbecile” at least used to have a technical meaning in psychological testing: someone with a mental age of 3 to 7 years. How did you get access to Trump’s IQ test scores?
That aside, is there something new to be said about Trump that the media hasn’t raised already? He’s ostensibly a incestuous child-molester wannabe. His ex-butler is a racist and an antisemite. Some former advisor is a horrible person. And so on.
As opposed to Hillary Clinton, former board member of WalMart – the world’s worst corporation owned by America’s worst family of multi-millionaires. She who supported mandatory sentencing for drug offenders and work-fare. She of “We came, we saw, he died.”
A major difference: she’s actually sat in seats of power on an international level and used her position to accrue hundreds of millions. He just got born into money. All things being equal, I wouldn’t want to be caught in a dark alley with either of them. You think she’s at least marginally better? Go for it. I wouldn’t vote for either of them for dog-catcher. I love dogs far too much.
Paul: Actually that first paragraph was a back handed defense of Trump . I was putting down the reasons that people give not to vote for him.
But now that you mention it, please take this article with a little humor. Even though the author is not being humorous.
http://www.salon.com/2016/04/25/maybe_donald_trump_has_really_lost_his_mind_what_if_the_gop_frontrunner_isnt_crazy_but_simply_not_well/
I am as well aware as you, of the Clinton/Obama despicable neo liberal record . Have read Michelle Alexander, Thomas Frank and Robert Scheer … … Just not ready to take the personal loss of my defined benefit pension. So I would rather fight her tooth and nail than see Trump.
Here’s one little factoid that the righteous fail to note, In a Trump Presidency the GOP will deliver to his desk on Jan 20th a bill to eliminate ACA, and with the stroke of a pen, 20 million of us will lose our healthcare with little or no chance of ever getting it back. This is one of many incidentals that mean nothing to the die hard progressives shouting out their purity on this page. And i know for a fact that NONE of them will be giving up their lifelines, yet they are so fast to give up ours. What a load. Vote Stein and Elect Trump. With Righteous Indignation… and your message to those of us who will lose our ability to engage medicine??? Too bad suckers you’re standing in the way of my progress.
Everyone has some individual scare story to offer that is supposed to make irrelevant any objection progressives have to HRC. Yours is Obamacare. For others, it’s abortion. And so on. First, you need to get a grip on reality. Things aren’t so cut-and-dried as you make them out to be. And even if they were, you might remember that there will be a new Congress in January. If we vote out the idiots and vote in progressives, there won’t be any such bill for any president to sign or veto. You recall how that works, right?
But above and beyond mere facts and logic, I wonder what issue would get you to vote against your preferences simply because I whined about it sufficiently and tried to make you feel like a monster for not changing your vote at my command. None, you say? Exactly right. Same here.
michaelelliot55
Listen I hear your statement and I will be the deciding vote for Hillary it the polls warrant it.
But as for Obamacare it may be dying of its own accord. Premiums are rising deductibles are rising . The theory was that patients would seek preventive care thus lowering total over all costs . What we are seeing is that patients are taking the lowest premium plans, than seeking to avoid high deductibles are avoiding care .
That is where we were before . No one does that with medicare.
That is back to square one where care was sought at emergency rooms when it was more expensive and possibly too late.
http://www.upi.com/Health_News/2016/05/06/Doctors-call-for-single-payer-healthcare-to-improve-on-Obamacare/2531462538608/
There never was a popular rebellion against Medicare here or in Canada, where it extends to the entire population.
Romneycare is a bust. But never Trump
“The theory was that patients would seek preventive care thus lowering total over all costs . What we are seeing is that patients are taking the lowest premium plans, than seeking to avoid high deductibles are avoiding care .
That is where we were before . No one does that with medicare.
That is back to square one where care was sought at emergency rooms when it was more expensive and possibly too late.”
Thank you. Just the other day I got an email from my doctor asking, “Hasn’t it been a while?” I wrote back saying that I could come in and see him, but it wouldn’t do much good as I can’t afford to follow up on anything he finds anyway. I had outpatient laproscopic surgery in April 2015 (three days before the NPE conference, incidentally) and it cost me $6,000 out of pocket. More than a year later our HSA is just about back to $6,000. We’re in our mid-forties – what are we going to do if we have any serious health issues before we reach Medicare age (assuming it even still exists then)? Before Obamacare we had an HMO which we weren’t thrilled with at the time but now it seems like luxury. But the premiums got so high we couldn’t afford it any more. That’s what happens when the government artificially increases demand for a private product – price increases.
If people were worried about losing ACA they should have voted for Bernie so we could have something even better.
MPG: Trump is a weak, even incompetent candidate with no experience in politics period. If elected, he will have to prop himself up with w/gurus & consultants to tell him what to do. He has already illustrated the type of choice he may make by selecting Pence as a running-mate. A dangerous, pig-in-a-poke-type alternative to a candidate who is surely no worse than Obama & possibly better.
Sorry, bethree, but I can’t agree about where HRC stands relative to Obama. I voted for him twice, even if I wasn’t happy about it the second time. I can’t vote for her. And damning her with faint praise isn’t changing the equation for me.
Dienne
I have been fortunate my children will not be as fortunate . Few people realize that not only is Obamacare failing . The employer sponsored health care that grew out of WW2 and the Union movement was dying as well . A victims of greed .
Yes it is time to join the civilized world and take care of all our citizens the same way we provide police and fire .
For me, it is not the personality, but the ideology. Hillary is a neoliberal who like her husband believes in a brand of politics that champions the self-sufficiency of markets, and markets that do not need regulation. Thus everything that promotes the market is good – privatization, mobility of finance and capital, etc. When Hillary says in debates speaking on deregulation of finance that we have to abide by “the rule of law” she means the law in the sense of the market, the law after it has already been interpreted in economic terms. The difference between her and Bernie is profound because unlike Hillary, Bernie does not believe that the market can tackle climate change, income inequality, health care, racial justice, education, terrorism, etc. Yes, lovers of Charter Schools are neoliberals who believe the market can improve public education. Hillary’s ideology is pro charter school. Or as Bill once said, “It’s the economy, Stupid.” And Bill is the one who moved the democratic party from one that champions the blue collar worker to the party that champions the neoliberal professional. Race to the Top is neoliberal policy. Clear evidence demonstrates it has not worked for poor kids, but it has made millions for corporate folk. Lots of money to be made under the guise of helping poor kids. Hillary is the darling of corporate America. She, like her husband, understand on which side her bread is buttered. Educators should understand as well.
Jim McD,
As I said before, either Hillary or The Donald will be elected in November.
Sorry, but the repeated attempt to make this about sexism, misogyny, etc., will never fly with progressive men and women. Never. We would support a progressive candidate for POTUS in a heartbeat. She isn’t one. Our objections focus on policies she has promoted when she’s had power, not her “asking” for power (I didn’t realize that was what running for office comprised. Generally, it’s called trying to seize power through the ballot box (and the concomitant system that most progressives view with no little reason as fixed and corrupt. The DNC this cycle certainly managed to “blunder” into supporting that belief at every possible turn, and with the full cooperation of what passes for the “liberal” part of the mainstream media: CNN, MSNBC, the NY TIMES, and various online sources that might be liberal as long as we affix “neo-” in front of that.))
We have been told by Hillary Clinton apologists for a year that those of us who don’t support her are closet Republicans, Tea Party members, Trump-lovers, women-haters, racists, and a host of other false epithets (some of which are far less polite than these). These were lame attacks from the first, designed to move moderate and liberal women and men to question what the Sanders campaign was about and to cleave to the self-proclaimed “progressive who likes to get things done.” Yet we are supposed to ignore her track record in every political role she’s played, not to mention her having served on the board of WalMart with never a criticism or complaint about that heinous corporation.
That’s not some Republican diatribe. It’s not misogynistic. And yes, it’s the GAME we hate. But she is a prominent player, currently the presumptive nominee of one of the two major parties, and presumably the next POTUS. She gets no slack from me. Neither does Trump. Neither did Giuliani until he self-destructed in ’08. Suggesting that progressives are being unfair to Hillary because she’s got a vagina (and, of course, progressive men and women are apparently terrified of those and the folks who have them!) is ridiculous. I’ve criticized Obama’s education policies since 2009. Does that make me a racist, too?
Not going to buy this line of argumentation because it fails every test of fact and logic. It’s a very weak ploy to make Hillary’s opposition appear to be emotionally immature, grossly unfair to her, blind to her wonderulness and honesty, and nothing more than a bunch of “Bernie Bros” (and Gals?) who just won’t give the finest person in American politics the respect and admiration she’s earned. Except that she isn’t and hasn’t.
Trump picked Mike Pence as his VP choice, a far right wing nut who claims that smoking is not bad for your health and that’s the least of his far right wing Christo-fascistic agenda. Hillary will not pick a far right wing running mate, she will not appoint far right wingers to the supreme court.
You are wrong – Hilary was disliked long before she was running for president. She has broken the law on multiple occasions and, if elected, will continue to take away our liberty and put our national security at more risk than it is now. She is on record/video with contradiction after contradiction, proving that she lies – saying one thing at one time and the exact opposite another time, constantly! Please do some real research! I am stunned that an educational forum such as Diane Ravitch would endorse her. Hilary pretends to speak for the middle class but knows nothing about it. How dare she lecture me as she wears her 12,000 dollar suits! She knows nothing of what it’s like to really work and hold a job. How dare she lecture me on race when she is part of the problem. I’m stunned that liberals keep pushing the same failing policies over and over and over again…..Detroit, Baltimore, California. Why do you want to give up more of your income to the government. She wants to raise taxes and so many people are so willing to hand over their hard earned money. Please remember – the Constitution was written to limit the power of the government and to protect our liberties.
It’s ironic that Bernie is supporting her while knocking the business sector at the same time. Hillary’s whole campaign funding is based upon business dollars.
Diane it’s not too late to run!
Knock it off with the sexism/misogyny accusations. Most of us who supported Bernie are shifting our support to Jill Stein. Pretty sure she’s a woman.
Pretty sure at this point that I’ll vote for Stein. But I don’t need to mention that to justify my views of Hillary. Sex and gender have zero to do with how I cast my vote. Neither does “race”/ethnicity, skin color, sexual preferences, ad nauseam. Policies and political outlook are my main criteria, along with believability. Do so many progressives distrust HRC because of her vagina? I find that a ludicrous accusation.
People are fed up with the status quo. Hillary represents the status quo, basically Obama 2.0. Trump supporters may not like Trump, but they are tired of seeing jobs sent overseas or given to illegal immigrants and H1bs. People are angry as their retirements erode, college becomes unaffordable, and a middle class life style slips out of their grasps. Americans are realizing the system is rigged and wealth goes to trust fund blue bloods or sociopathic execs and hedge fund managers. Trump strikes every correct note and resonates with a large group of Americans. Calling it racism or misogyny is dismissing the underlying issues. Democrat complacency and hubris could lose this thing.
I don’t think for a minute Trump and his string pulling immediate family represents a solution or a future. But Hillary is dull and uninspiring. She brings back memories of the Clinton era – parsing words, squishy policy, and paper thin credibility. Bernie was extreme in many ways, but he had ideology. He had charisma to match Trump. And he was authentic to working Americans who calculate taxes on earned income. Bernie would pull in voters and benefit down ticket races. A Hillary presidency is tolerable, but we might as well chew on cardboard. Nothing will get done to help the middle class or teachers. Just more of the same.
Trump is a flim flam man.
His products are outsourced abroad.
He is a big time fraud
Uh, no, she wasn’t. There were plenty of us that found her disengenuous before she was running the first time. The linked piece smacks of propaganda to me. I don’t personally believe we have a good choice this time around. It is going to continue to be up to the people and lower representatives to repair education, and eventually it may have to be done in defiance of federal law.
Hillary needs a new line of argument for support. Arnovitz is echoing the strategy the HRC hopes will get her the WH. “Everyone else did it, so why (wink wink) is everyone picking on Poor Misunderstood Hillary?” This is getting old, this PMH refrain.
We know her record, especially on education issues. She’s just horrible (I know she’s moderated in the last week but forgive me for not being convinced). From standardized tests to charter schools, she’s been one of the biggest spokespeople for Walmart and Broad.
It’s issues. It’s her policy history. She’s just so…horrible.
Trump is worse – it’s all she’s got.
Randi needs to go too (how many times has she stabbed teachers in the back?). The fact that she’s still in power proves that the natl unions are corrupt. And she threw our weight behind the 2nd most unpopular major party candidate in modern history is…well, something we’d expect from Randi.
There’s a re-alignment taking place, and ed activists have been fighting for this for some time.. Might not happen this time around, but it’s coming.
Anyway, Diane, it’s your blog and I guess you can defend Hillary as much as you want. You can deny that she’s a liar, a warmonger, a corporatist, whatever. But if and when she gets into office, please don’t act surprised when she supports Wall Street, passes the TPP (if Obama doesn’t beat her to it) and the Keystone Pipeline, gets us into growing conflict with Syria, Iran, Russia, you name it. Hillary’s history is clear and it’s not an “attack” to point it out.
Dienne,
I know all of Hillary’s flaws. But we are faced with a choice between Hillary and Trump. Her flaws pale in comparison to his narcissism, nativism, bullying, misogyny, greed, and involvement in multiple cons to scam the innocent. Stay home if you wish. Vote for Jill Stein if you wish.
I will do whatever I can to keep Trump out of the White House. If elected, he will immediately get to pick the deciding vote on the Supreme Court. Several of the justices are old, and he might get to choose 2 or 3 more justices. You can say goodbye to gun control, Roe v. Wade, environmental regulations, corporate regulations, and all of the legal protections for civil rights we take for granted.
This is not a hard choice.
Diane, there is a vast difference between the argument that Hillary is better than Trump (which I have issues with, but at least it’s defensible) vs. actively defending Hillary in the face of the evidence available, as this article does. Maybe Hillary is better than Donald and maybe we should vote for her over him – I’m not sold on that, but I accept the argument. But this piece goes far and away above that to say that all the criticisms of Hillary are just “attacks” by people who are either right-wingers in disguise or just misogynistic, but of which are just empty arguments designed to silence any legitimate criticism of Hillary. “Hillary is the lesser evil” and “Hillary is a well-qualified candidate” are two different arguments. Supporters need to decide which one they’re making.
I am not making either argument, Dienne. I am basing my judgment on reality. Either Clinton or Trump will be elected President in November. Deriding her, as so many progressives continue to do, is pointless, unless you prefer Trump.
When you act, you must consider the consequences.
Trump will not be the Republican nominee! They will pick either Kasich, Ryan, Romney or some other dog whistle bigot, Any of which would trounce Hillary in a general election! Hillary is tied or behind tRump in three major swing states. Bernie Sanders has not conceded, but was forced to endorse her. If Bernie is not selected by the superdelegates at the Democratic convention, should they come to their senses and see Hillary as a lost cause and vote for Bernie to be the nominee, does our country and traditional k-12 public education, stand a chance!
Diane: you may be able to convince progressive and I agree with you. Try that approach with working class Americans . This is a disaster in the making .The polls are showing us that. And the Republicans have not even started to play, wait till they smell blood. Trump is not the problem, Republicans are and he will drive their agenda with them. .
The demagoguery is not knew it started with Nixon , Reagan turned it into an art form with Welfare Queens and Cadillacs, it was always the dog whistle to the base. Dismal Democrats have created this in every area of the economy from Public Schools , to trade ,to even healthcare they became Republicans. The defense of Clinton is indefensible. The alternative to Clinton unbearable.
Inside academia or on the Isle of Manhattan or even gentrified Brooklyn, it will be far easier to convince progressive to vote with their head and not their heart . Than it will be out here in the country side (LOL)with working class Americans. If Jeanette took a poll at Opt Out Long Island. I would be afraid to publish the results.
Clinton doesn’t need defense she needs contrition with Obama as well . Contrition in this case is course reversal on several issues.
I doubt we will see it.
Joel,
I hope you are wrong. I don’t think you will hear contrition from Hillary, any more than you will hear Donald Trump admit that Trump University was a massive fraud against poor and working class Americans who trusted his name and lost thousands.
If Trump and Pence are elected, American working class families and poor people and people who care about abortion rights, gay rights, and civil rights, as well as the environment and gun control, will be the losers.
“Clinton doesn’t need defense she needs contrition with Obama as well .”
Exactly. Clinton’s detractors are, wittingly or unwittingly, doing her a favor. If she could listen to what people are upset about and respond with something better than let them eat cake, she’d be secure in the presidency. But instead she and her supporters (like the linked article) are so derisive to legitimate criticism that they’re alienating people who are, with lack of other alternatives, turning toward the candidate who should have been a laughing stock from the get go. If Clinton and the Dems exhibited one ounce of genuine contrition for their contribution to the misery the majority of Americans find themselves living in, I and I think others would feel like there’s something to work with, hope that maybe Hillary gets it. But despite many people’s best efforts to explain this to her, Hillary and her supporters insist on laughing in our faces and threatening us with Trump. Sigh. Good luck with that strategy in November.
Diane: I agree with you 100 % ,on the harm that Trump will do with a right wing agenda. As I have stated several times if the polls are even close in NY, I will hold my nose and do what I have done for many years , vote for the lesser of two evils.
Bob Reich had a short piece on the parties rejection of a formal plank opposing TPP . It was a conversation he was having with a party insider, whether it was fictional ,I don’t know . He was adamant about
how critical a mistake it was.
To kick off his 2012 campaign Obama went to Osawatomie Kansas, as a response to the occupy movement and became the reincarnation of Teddy Roosevelt. That populist swing reversed the election. It took the Nations focus off of deficits and placed it on inequality, which was then attacking the middle class. Of course he never followed through and probably could not have.
Contrition:
Picture Obama pulling TPP off the table attributing it to Hillary, Bernie , Warren and the American people. Bernie, Warren , Union leaders, go back to working class people and say we have power, you fought against the machine and won .
Now don’t blow it by voting for a fascist demagogue who will destroy everything you have . Bernie holds his hands high in the air with Hillary and the opposition among almost all progressives melts.
Similarly he could call for a reset of Education policy, ask for Kings resignation, appoint a progressive educator , you would then go back to the opt out movement and grass roots teachers organizations with the same argument . Is this fantasy? Probably, because as Mike Taibbi said a few weeks ago “inside the palace walls they never see a problem”.
The polls should tell them there is a tremendous problem . You will never reach the xenophobic, homophobic, racist base of the Republican party. You will win those swing voters in swing states and motivate the Democratic base. All those kids who came out for Bernie, many for the first time in front of NYU who now feel the systems rigged, will feel empowered
“His main push has been to improve career and technical education programs. But he’s also been a strong advocate for state support for preschool, school choice, locally created academic standards and school accountability.”
So Trump/Pence would be identical to Obama/Biden on public education.
And they’re all exactly like Kasich.
It isn’t so much “Hillary Clinton” it’s that we need a real debate on education. There’s only one “choice”- market-based ed reform.
These politicians are not just “somewhat alike”- they’re identical.
Can we possibly allow some other ideas in? It’s been 20 years. It’s time.
Yes, Trump, Pence, Obama, Biden, Kasich, and Clinton are all identical. There are no policy differences among them that matter. There is also no difference between a 4-4 vote and a 7-2 vote on the Supreme Court, because none of the cases matter. The lower federal courts also don’t matter, again, because none of the cases involve issues that affect anyone.
Some examples of Supreme Court decisions that didn’t matter: Bush v. Gore, Citizens United, Heller, Roe v. Wade, Friedrichs v. California, and every other decision.
If Democrats would wake up and help get the federal government OUT of education, disband the USDOE, then we could have a chance to save public education in our communities. That would neutralize Trump/Pence and HRC in education (mostly)!
That won’t happen because no matter how harmful, ineffective, and inefficient the federal policies are, the Democrats and too many Republicans, really believe that government is a solution.
The coercive power of the federal purse harms average Americans everywhere it is employed, but most of you on this site still cling to some mythical government run progressive utopia.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
I have been a vocal critic of Obama’s education policy, but he has been a plus around the world in the view of most of our allies. He has not been an embarrassment. We would not have been better off under McCain or Romney, and we would probably not have two smart liberal women on the Supreme Court either.
Hillary is not my choice, but I’d rather deal with her than Trump and his toxic team. I worked in NY under Hillary’s term in the senate. She supported public education and worked to increase budgets for public schools. I know who her friends are, but I think some of the rage against her has to do with the fact we were conned by Obama.
The problem the SCOTUS has is the partisan divide and unintended consequences. Not to mention the hypocrisy of some acting as strict Constitutionalist when the world would be unrecognizable to the guys in Philadelphia. The Constitutionalist wing tends to pick and choose.
I’m interested in how Clinton got to the point where she proposed college funding help for people who make 125k a year and under. Did the Democratic Party really not know that college costs were going thru the roof while wages were stagnant? It’s been going on for 20 years.
How can they not know that? It’s the astonishing level of disconnect that bothers me. It’s as if they no longer live in the same country as the rest of us.
If you are a national politician and a campaign operative has to TELL you that, you have a big problem, and it won’t be fixed when you win the election.
It’s the selective pursuit of issues, in the absence of real interest in American democracy. It’s true of both parties.
I didn’t read the entire post. That said, James Comey’s statement on the recommendation for not prosecuting HRC says it all. Stephen Colbert had the perfect skit on that showing her saying one thing about the emails then saying the opposite at a later date. The anger at HRC from the progressive side is revealed from the incredible support Bernie Sanders has. The reason should be obvious; Bernie has been saying the same things for many years. Progressives are angry because Bernie’s principled campaign v. Hillary’s pandering campaigned (helped by D.W. Shultz) failed to win the nomination for the same reasons Trump won the Republican. People are tired of being played for suckers. On the Republican side Trump is getting away with lying and saying crazy things because many of the working class realize they’ve been taken for a ride so they simply want someone, anyone, outside the elite Republican political power structure. As for Michael Arnovitz, this article, what I read of it, strikes me as a justification for HRC’s pandering behavior.
Bernies received most if not all of his money from small donations from a record number of individual donors including myself. I gave about $300 split among many small donations. With this level of financial support from so many small donors for Bernie it’s understandable to be angry at Hillary especially because of the perception that mainstream media and the DNC were favoring her. Finally anger at Hillary grew do to her campaigning strategy of talking yet saying nothing on vital issues. Bernie forced her to take clearer stands on important issues such as the TPP.
Bernie endorsed Hillary.
You can vote for her, vote for Trump, vote for Stein, vote Libertarian, write in a vote, or stay home.
One person will be elected: Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump.
Period.
Should’ve ended my previous comment by stating that I will vote for the lesser of the two evils…Hillary Clinton.
If they know income hasn’t risen since 2000, and states cut college funding, and college costs went up, and more and more people are attending college, that had to know people couldn’t afford it, right? The money has to come from somewhere. Bernie Sanders really has to tell them?
If so, thank goodness for Bernie Sanders, but don’t we have a slightly bigger problem?
Why would someone have to deliver that message? Do they live in a gated community on the freaking moon?
Why did Sen. Sherrod Brown just wake up to the fleecing of Ohioans by charter schools? Why does Brown want the US Dept. of Ed. to fulfill the agenda of the Waltons and Gates? Surely Brown knows that David Koch is on the board of the Aspen Institute. (Koch photo removed from array, just a few weeks ago.)
To counter the opinion of Michael Arnovitz, I present this article written by Eddie S. Glaude, Jr., Chair of the Department of African American Studies at Princeton University:
http://time.com/4402823/glaude-hillary-clinton/?xid=homepage
I agree with Professor Glaude.
Thanks for the link. I agree too.
Hillel says, “If I am not for myself, who will be for me? But if I am only for myself, who am I? If not now, when?” Ethics of the Fathers, 1:14
The above avails itself of many interpretations. For me, the most important point is the last. How long must we wait to take real action for a progressive democratic America? Another 4 to 8 years of neoliberal/neoconservative government for the 1% is NOT going to get it done, folks. Another 4 to 8 years of knuckling under to the power elite within the Democratic Party establishment tells them that we are the sheep they want and believe us to be. That they can always buy us off or cow us into submission.
And to my dear friend FLERP: you have a guarantee somewhere about the judges HRC plans to appoint? The ones Trump plans to appoint? We’ve gotten progressive and moderate judges from GOP presidents, and turkeys from Democratic presidents. If Obama’s current choice at all reflects what HRC will do, no progressives of the Stevens/Douglas/Brennan/Brandeis/T. Marshall variety are in the offing.
I am not happy about the prospect of President Trump, possibly followed immediately (like right after he takes office and then quits or simply stands aside) by President Pence. But the alternative of Hillary Clinton is unacceptable. I will stand against both of them and none of your attempts to make Donald Trump the 2016 version of Barry Goldwater isn’t going to work. If Hillary wins, I don’t want it on my conscience that I put her into office out of fear of the other guy. When she acts as she predictably will given her neolib/neocon outlook and track record, I can continue to decry her actions knowing that I opposed them at every turn. People like you will turn yourselves into logical pretzels trying to rationalize the irrational and defend the indefensible. I lived with that the last 8 years thanks to my two votes for Obama. Never again.
Michael Paul Goldenberg, your last paragraph, in particular, says it all. Thank you for this.
When do our consciences finally take over? When do we stop “defending the indefensible”?
When do we, as progressives/liberals/whatever you want to call us, say “Enough is enough!”?
I am voting for Jill Stein, but I am also voting for, and working for, down-ticket candidates who represent my values. Supporting them may be the only way that we can eventually change the way the nation is going. It’s not easy, and it will take a long time, perhaps a longer time than I have left on this earth. But I am thinking of future generations. We owe it to them.
You’re welcome, Zorba, and thank you for the kind words.
Since Republicans raised the cry of “No More Souters,” there have been no more Souters. And since then, here’s what we’ve gotten from Republican Presidents with Republican-Controlled Senates:
Samuel Alito
John Roberts
Here’s what we’ve gotten from Democrat Presidents a Democrat-Controlled Senate
Ruth Bader Ginsburg
Stephen Breyer
Sonia Sotomayor
Elena Kagan
Hillary Clinton has told us a little what kind of Justice she would nominate. Donald Trump has given us a list of the kind of Justices that he would nominate. So factor that in, with whatever discount you think is appropriate.
There has not been a Justice nominated by Democrat President with a Republican-Controlled Senate since 1895, so we are in uncharted waters to some degree. Recent history (which is arguably the only relevant history for Supreme Court appointments) and logic each suggest that Presidents nominate more moderate candidates when the Senate is controlled by the opposition party. Recent history also shows that when the same party controls the Presidency and the Senate, Republicans will nominate candidates that are considered by most SCOTUS observers to be “conservative,” while Democrats will nominate candidates considered to be “liberal.”
Make of this what you will. It seems obvious to me what the smart bet is. But you are correct that I cannot guarantee that you will prefer a Supreme Court shaped by a President Clinton to a Supreme Court shaped by President Trump.
my apologies for the typos and the html tags that didn’t render.
My wife’s speaking fees (at the low end) in addition to travel expenses, hotel rooms and meals, are usually $15,000 for an hour or less and she gets a few gigs a year.
Well, then, Lloyd, she appears to be a piker. But then, she’s not running for POTUS, either.
Is she speaking to the big bankers that destroyed the economy, and then running for POTUS by means of their donations?
My wife came to the U.S. as an immigrant from China when she was 28. She is not a citizen. She isn’t qualified to run for POTUS, but Pearson paid her to use a passage from one of her books in one of their crap tests. In her own defense, at the time she signed the contract with Pearson, she didn’t know who Pearson was.
How satisfied will you be when Trump is elected and violence against your neighbors, aka, “them,” continues to escalate with presidential sanction, when freedom of the press, speech and assembly are curtailed, and when neighbors are deported? When Roe v. Wade is overturned? or maybe even Brown and other civil and labors rights? You’ll say what? I voted my conscience?
Scare tactics and lame attempts a liberal/white guilt in 2016 are going to be ineffectual against someone who has put his life on the line for civil rights and anti-war efforts since the mid-1960s, who remembers the lovely campaign the Democrats ran in ’64 against Barry Goldwater so that we could have Lyndon Johnson and a decade or so of Vietnam, who has voted for the Democratic candidate for POTUS in every election since 1972, and who sees Hillary as a neoliberal/neoconservative hybrid in a $12K Armani pantsuit.
Points for trying, Arthur, but at least know your antagonist before selecting tactics. I no longer jump when the latest DNC talking head says, “Boo!”
OK. Paul. I’ll end my contribution to this line of discussion by saying that we do not know one another. I know nothing about what struggles you have participated in, nor you about me. Suffice it to say, that implying that I am an apologist for neo-liberals, centrist Democrats or the DNC is a cheap shot and a weak argument. Let’s stick to ideas.
It’s “Michael,” Arthur, not “Paul,” and I haven’t accused you of being an apologist for anyone. But what “ideas” have YOU been discussing? I missed them in your spate of scare tactics. Those you must own.
And Arthur, do you REALLY believe that Donald Trump will sanction violence against American citizens? That his election will make typical racists feel that FINALLY they can act on that racism (because up until now they’ve been so restrained)? That electing HRC will magically repress or eliminate much of that hatred and racism (because up until now, Barack Obama has done so much to keep it in check)?
I’m here in the real world where fairy tales don’t come true. And the ones told about the Ogre Trump and the White Knight HRC are just that: fairy tales.
No white knights. Just an ogre.
And therein lies part of the problem: the inability to see HRC for what she is: an ogress as much as Trump is an ogre and quite possibly more so. More dangerous because she’s so effective in some circles at selling herself as a liberal, a progressive, a feminist, an anti-racist, etc. None of it’s true, and the more the moderates buy what she’s selling, the more they can pat themselves and each other on the back and pretend they’re made a statement and commitment for/to making things better for the poor and needy. Sadly for those who need help the most, moderates are doing nothing of the sort in backing another Clinton.
“do you REALLY believe that Donald Trump will sanction violence against American citizens?”
You raise a good point here, and I do hope that the violence is limited to non-citizens.
Thanks Arthur for fighting the good fight. No one is saying that Hillary is Joan of Arc or a knight in shining armor. The whole point is that Trump is an absolute horror. Look at whom he picked for VP!!!!!! I voted for Bernie and wanted Bernie for president but he didn’t win. Bernie says vote for Hillary because he realizes just how bad Trump is. Things don’t look good since so many people hate Hillary. Trump will go after Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, labor rights, abortion rights and the minimum wage. He will appoint far right wing fascists to the supreme court. Wake up people, Trump could win with so many progressives opting out or voting for Jill Stein. If she stood a chance, I’d vote for her but she’s not even on the radar.
Sure, Joe: and the morning after his inauguration, Barry Goldwater was going to drop the bomb on the USSR, China, and East Germany. For starters. Thank GOD we got Lyndon Johnson: I bet the families of all the dead Asian & US military, the survivors of the Vietnamese War, and the spirits of those slaughtered in SE Asia from ’64 to ’73 bless the US electorate for Johnson’s landslide victory in Nov. 1964. That made the world safe for democracy, alright!
You don’t at all wax hyperbolic in your description of the world under Donald Trump. All fact, no speculation or exaggeration, and certainly no attempt at scare tactics.
Clinton appointed two employees of Madelyn Albright’s firm to the DNC platform committee. Reportedly, hedge funder Paul Singer is an Albright client. Reportedly, Albright is on the board of hedge funder, Pete Peterson’s latest organization to eliminate Social Security. Albright serves with David Koch on the Aspen Institute board. Aspen’s education programs are funded by Gates. (Koch’s photo was in the board array until a few weeks ago. Albright’s remains.)
The information is provided not to influence, but to inform.
Trump is worse. Voting will be done with a heavy heart, in November.
Hi Diane,
Thanks for your comments. I guess where I’m at is best expressed in the piece by Dr. Eddie Glaude, Chair of the African American Studies department at Princeton. Worthwhile reading for some of the reasons not to vote for her: http://time.com/4402823/glaude-hillary-clinton/?xid=homepage
That’s an excellent article, David. Thank you for the link.
I am shocked that people don’t get just how bad Trump is and what hell he could bring to the US as president. He is far worse than Hillary and it’s as obvious as the nose on your face. Trump and VP Pence: horrific. I will happily vote for Hillary in spite of all her failings or shortcomings. She will not choose a right winger for VP and she will not appoint far right wingers to the supreme court. Case closed, vote for Hillary……….PLEASE!
Joe, let’s keep remarks about the size of my nose out of this.
Here’s what you don’t get: neoliberal/neocon hybrids of the HRC flavor are at least as dangerous as flat-out neocons like GWB and whatever it was that we had in Reagan and GHW Bush (who were different from one another and each different from the Shrub). And in some ways they are more dangerous. Did Bill Clinton keep us out of pointless foreign entanglements? Not quite. Did Hillary, while senator or Sec. of State? Not quite. In fact, she has reveled in our military might and its uses and abuses and shown no inclination to change our course from American exceptionalism and role as self-appointed policeman of the world. That doesn’t scare you at all?
What will Hillary do to make things better for the neediest, most exploited Americans or anyone else on the planet not part of the ruling classes and oligarchy? And what makes you think so?
Michael, you have made another good point. The argument about us “needing” to vote, yet again, for the “least bad alternative” makes my head hurt.
Yes, the “least bad alternative” can, in the end, be even worse, because it lowers our expectations and allows us to get more and more used to the “kinder, gentler” version of what the oligarchs and the war-hawks in sheep’s clothing want.
What might have happened if those of us who took to the streets in protest of the Vietnam War had listened to the people counseling patience, take the slow way, it will end eventually, you can’t accomplish anything by the protests? Yes, it still took too long to end, but how much longer would it have taken if not for the protests?
What would have happened if the Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr. and the Civil Rights protesters had taken the slow approach? And there were people who counseled that, as well, back then.
Indeed, yes, MLK was assassinated, Civil Rights protesters were jailed, beaten up, even killed. Vietnam War protesters were jailed and killed, as well (lest we forget Kent State).
They were all martyrs to their causes, but their actions (and even martyrdom) helped bring about Civil Rights and the end to the Vietnam War.
I am not in any way suggesting, or even desiring, people to take to the streets and put themselves at actual physical risk over whether Hillary or Donald will win the election.
But I am asking people to remember those who, in furtherance of their causes, refused to take the “least bad alternative” approach. And to, at least, work for those candidates who do not present that alternative, and at this point, it mainly means the down-ticket candidates.
Okay, sorry for the rant, but as a 60’s era “dirty f*cking hippie,” leftie, protester, radical (and I was called worse names), it pains me to even contemplate the current alternatives, and those, however well-meaning (and I do sincerely believe that they are well-meaning), counsel patience and taking the “least bad” that we can get.
This argument that anyone who dislikes Hillary is a crank or a misogynist is unlikely to win her new supporters. It is a logical fallacy to argue that Hillary’s unpopularity on both the left and the right is proof that both sides are wrong, in fact Hillary is disliked by many segments of American society for many different reasons.
I personally dislike her for her vote on the Iraq war, her pandering to conservative Christians (including opposing gay marriage on religious grounds until just a few years ago), her stint on the board of Walmart, and her double-talk on racial and poverty issues (lots of big talk on unity, but supported welfare reform and condescended to young black women who confronted her on the campaign trail, tepidly supported $12 min wage but then took credit for $15 min wage in NY and Las Vegas, etc.), and more. The fact that a conservative might dislike her for other reasons (because she’s pro-choice, for example) doesn’t invalidate my reasons for disliking her. Hillary’s high unfavorability ratings across the ideological spectrum do make her a terrible choice for the Dem nominee, and the fact that she was ramrodded through by the DNC is tragic for America.
Regarding her series of $225,000 speeches, the issue isn’t that she gave highly paid speeches, it is that she gave highly paid speeches before groups that she has promised to reign in and regulate, or who have business/lobbying interests with the government, and then refused to release the transcripts. It is an enormous conflict of interest.
Also, the reason Paris Hilton’s speaking fees aren’t a political scandal is Paris Hilton that isn’t running for president. If Paris declares herself a candidate her potential conflicts of interest (speaking fees etc) and the transcripts of her paid speeches would certainly become a big issue. The fact that the media has stopped asking Hillary about her speech transcripts is pitiful. Also pitiful that Hillary hasn’t held a press conference in months.
Does anyone here really think that Trump/Pence = Clinton/Kane?
I’m no HRC fan (never voted for her and never will) but a Trump presidency, which is looking more and more like a coin flip possibility, would turn our country into a very bad reality show.
I like Hillary, and I think that, in her heart, she’s a liberal and not a neoliberal. I don’t blame her and Bill for tacking to the right in the 90’s –they had to adapt to the Reagan-esque zeitgeist then. After decades of being pummeled by Republicans, and with a progressive wind at her back, she’s going to be a liberal battle-axe as president. No one with a conscience would use the presidency to make the world safer for rich people at this juncture in history. Hillary has a conscience; Trump doesn’t. Very disturbing to see so many here willing to make the perfect the enemy of the good.
Read HARD CHOICES, particularly her boasting about her roles in Libya and Honduras (make sure to read the hard cover version; the paperback was toned down) and tell me if you still believe Hillary will be a liberal. And note, she’s already called for a no-fly zone in Syria, a direct provocation of Russia.
Dienne,
You will never persuade me that Trump will be better. He has already said he will revive torture and will bomb the hell out of ISIS, and praised dictators like Putin, Saddam Hussein, and Kim Yung IL.
Thank you, Diane. I seriously don’t get the comparison. Are Trump supporters living in some kind of delusion?
Thank you, Ponderosa.
It is up to us to keep up the pressure on her to be the President we hope for.
Donald Trump Praises Dictators, But Hillary Clinton Befriends Them
https://theintercept.com/2016/07/14/donald-trump-praises-dictators-but-hillary-clinton-befriends-them/
Sun Tzu, several thousand years ago in China wrote the Art of War. What he wrote is studied at West Point today and by corporate CEO’s around the world.
Sun Tzu says keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
“Sun Tzu, several thousand years ago in China wrote the Art of War. What he wrote is studied at West Point today and by corporate CEO’s around the world.
Sun Tzu says keep your friends close and your enemies closer.”
That would be quite an optimistic interpretation of Hillary’s ties to Wall Street and the political establishment.
“You will never persuade me that Trump will be better. ”
Oh for crying out loud, when have I ever tried? You’re the one who thinks there are only two choices. This constant failure to listen to Hillary’s detractors and distorting what they say is what is fueling the fire. If you want Hillary to win, and if she wants to win, she and her supporters need to start *listening* and stop getting defensive.
WOW! I haven’t read the comments yet, but this is willful blindness or simple ignorance from the writer.
First, the problem with basing your argument on Politifact’s stats, is that just because the word “fact” is in the name, and they use visual meters to rate candidates, does not mean it is the ultimate truth of who is the more or less honest candidate. Politifact chooses which statements to review, and are also susceptible to reporting/writing bias, as any other organization. If CNN started a sub-program called “truth meter,” and reported Hillary was the most honest candidate, would you believe it because it was called “truth meter?” If Politifact chose only to review and rate Donald Trump’s few true statements, and there must be some out there, would you say Donald is the most honest? But he was honest 5 out of 5 times, and that means 100%??
If you look at Politifact and think Hillary was “more honest” than Bernie Sanders during the 2016 cycle, as Politifact apparently has decided, you are delusional and/or haven’t paid attention at all. Apparently that is the case for this writer, and/or is trying to rationalize the cognitive dissonance, as Hillary supporters have seemed so good at.
This whole “Hillary is not actually a liar, and has not actually done bad stuff” is not going to fly with people who have the internet and a basic amount of research and critical thinking skills. It is an insult to our intelligence. This incredible effort to damage control for Hillary when we have access to the facts, reinforces some of the huge problems we see with her campaign and supporters. They think we should coddle Hillary Clinton and accept her, because all our anger is apparently unjustified. They are lying about her lying, because they want her so badly. That’s not a good sign.
Argue that Hillary is not as bad as Donald Trump, but not that all the vitriol against her is based on fantasy.
Most of the vitriol against HRC is based on myths and fantasies. If you don’t accept Politifact’s verdict, how about Snopes?
Scopes covered 31 accusations against the Clintons and only found 3 to be true and here they are.
TRUE
Photo shows soldier shaking hands with Hillary Clinton while crossing his fingers.
TRUE
The father of Chelsea Clinton’s husband is a former congressman who pled guilty to fraud charges.
TRUE
Hillary Rodham failed her 1973 attempt to pass the Washington, D.C., bar exam.
19 were found the be FALSE
2 were labeled legends, whatever that means
4 were labeled Mixture — that must mean partially true.
And there were labeled undetermined.
?UNDETERMINED
A former Secret Service agent gives his unvarnished opinion of the Clinton, Gore, and Bush families.
?UNDETERMINED
A KFC outlet in New York advertised a ‘Hillary Special.’
?UNDETERMINED
Photos show Bill Clinton (or George W. Bush) peering through binoculars with lens caps still in place. (I’ve done that before with a camera, and then I take the lens cap off before taking the shot)
http://www.snopes.com/politics/clintons/clintons.asp
“Most of the vitriol against HRC is based on myths and fantasies.
Wrong. Just because some myths and fantasies exist, does not mean “most of it” is based on myths and fantasies.
You seem to fail to see the major flaw in your method of determining Hillary’s honesty and history.
So, Lloyd, you’ve read HARD CHOICES, no? Just based on that book alone, either Hillary is a warmonger (by her own reckoning) or she is a liar (in the trash-talking WWE vein). Again, she openly boasts of her role in both Libya and Honduras, specifically talking about how she pushed Obama into those situations. This is not a right-wing smear, it’s her *own words*.
I’m a former Marine and a Vietnam combat vet who was born into poverty and went to college on the GI Bill. I’m a warmonger. I even own several firearms, but I keep them locked up most of the time. I only have problems when we go to war based on lies. For instance, Vietnam and Iraq. I agree with Teddy Roosevelt, who was the first progressive president and a rebel Republican, that the U.S. should talk softly and carry a big stick. And Teddy was a war monger too.
When HRC voted to support the Iraq war like the super majority in the Senate and House also did, did she know the evidence G.W. Bush used to justify the war in Iraq was based on fiction/lies? And if she believed those lies like most of the country did at that time, do we only condemn her. For instance, 72 percent of Americans supported the war Against Iraq based on those lies of WMDs. And we’re supposed to criticize and condemn Hillary because she voted to support the war?
When you make allegations against HRC, provide links to reputable sources to prove your allegations.
Sorry, Lloyd, but yes, we certainly do and should hold her responsible for believing lies from the neocons who informed the entire GWB administration. By their works shall ye know them, and Dick Cheney’s evil and mendacious reputation wasn’t new in 2001-2. Bernie Sanders knew clearly that the war was a mistake. I knew it was a mistake, My son, who was six at the time knew it was a mistake. How could Hillary Clinton POSSIBLY have guessed that we were being lied to? After all, it had been CENTURIES since she and her husband had access to every piece of intelligence available to the POTUS. And, of course, all his/her sources were cut off entirely when he left office in January 2001 such that no possible word contrary to what the Bushies were selling would have reached their ears.
For the NEXT fairy tale. . .
You want sources for what, Lloyd? The above is a fantastic concoction of nonsense on my part? Bernie made it up? Excuse me for thinking that you’re slanting the playing field a bit.
Does that mean you also condemn more than 258 million Americans who also approved of the war based on those lies, according to Gallup?
Or do we just single out Hillary and blame her and ignore everyone else.
May 2003
A Gallup poll made on behalf of CNN and USA Today concluded that 89% of Americans thought the Iraq War was justified, with or without conclusive evidence of illegal weapons. 19% thought weapons were needed to justify the war.
And Gallup wasn’t the only poll.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_opinion_in_the_United_States_on_the_invasion_of_Iraq
You might also want to educate yourself about the Resolutioln Hillary and the majoirty in both Houses of Congress approved.
Myth #1: The 2002 Congressional Resolution authorizing the use of military force against Iraq, on which Hillary Clinton and a large majority of U.S. Senators voted yes, gave George W. Bush “carte blanche” to pursue war against Saddam Hussein.
False! In fact exactly the opposite is true: While that Resolution did indeed authorize President Bush, under strict requirements of the 1973 War Powers Act, to use force, Section 3(b) of the Act also required that sanctions or diplomacy be fully employed before force was used, i.e. force was to be used only as “necessary and appropriate in order to defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq,” and to do so only upon the President certifying to Congress that “diplomatic or other peaceful means” would be insufficient to defang Saddam.
Despite those legal conditions, the following year we were at war—and millions of us were astonished that the Bush Administration, running roughshod over Congress’s requirements, hadn’t given more time for U.N. inspectors to complete their job of searching for weapons of mass destruction.
Myth #2: By voting for the 2002 Congressional Resolution which authorized (but was also designed to limit) George Bush’s power to wage war in Iraq, Hillary Clinton cannot be considered a “progressive” Democrat.
False! On October 11, 2002, Clinton joined a strong majority of Democrats, including liberal and left-center Democrats like Tom Harkin, John Kerry, and Joe Biden, in voting in favor of the Resolution authorizing the use of military force against Iraq. Later on, Clinton came to deeply regret giving President Bush the benefit of the doubt on the Resolution, and she has plainly admitted her mistake. Yet it is a “mistake” which many other senators of conscience made with her; if Clinton bears any blame for the resulting war, it is because she placed too much reliance on legislation that was actually designed to check a president’s war-making ability but instead inadvertently gave that president cover to run roughshod over the interests of both Congress and the public at large.
There’s more:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-marburggoodman/five-myths-about-hillary-iraq-war-vote_b_9177420.html
None of those other folks are running for POTUS, Lloyd. Bernie Sanders is, and he magically got that Bush was wrong and that we were being lied to. I got it, too, but then I’m not running. My son knew it was a huge mistake. He was six.
I don’t just blame her. But I DO blame her. No rhetorical two-step is getting her off the hook for that, but it’s not the worst of her crimes. On whom would you like to pin Libya if not in large part the then-Secretary of State. You remember: “We came, we saw, he died,” she gloated. She GLOATED, Lloyd. Khaddafi wasn’t my go-to table tennis partner, but he wasn’t quite Hitler, either. We killed him and she was in no small part responsible for that. And what did it buy you, me, or any non-connected (to the 1%) American?
Is it okay if I dump on Donald Trump? That seems fine with the moderate-liberal media and loads of Democrats right now. Is he Saddam Hussein or Khaddafi? Is he the “antichrist,” as has been suggested here today? He is not my bag of tea, not someone I would do business with, want to hang out with, trust my business to, or want as POTUS. Which is precisely why I won’t vote for him and will urge others not to, either. I just don’t think he’s demonstrably worse when we balance the respective evils of these candidates than HRC. And so I criticize HER because she’s the presumptive nominee of MY party. I get to do that, I believe. Decades of $$ sent to Democratic candidates and the DNC entitle me to scream like hell at what my party has done this election cycle. You think that’s unreasonable? I’m sorry, but stop reading what I post, in that case. She’s a public figure, candidate for the single most powerful elected position in the world: she gets as much scrutiny as we citizens care to engage in.
Ah, Bernie is not running for POTUS anymore and he has come out in support of HRC.
And I’ve read repeatedly in the last few days that he hasn’t suspended his campaign. But so what if he’s endorsed her? I’m not a puppet. I took his endorsement under advisement and, as I’m sure millions of others will do and as he certainly realized would be the case, have rejected it in favor of other options. We’re not children. Not even 18 y.o. supporters of Sanders worship him and feel obligated to do his (alleged) will. And we’ve been making that clear for a year or more. My son is 21. He’s not voting for her. And he adores Bernie. But only so far.
Second ah, voting for a bill in Congress is not a crime, as you allege, and if you read the language in the bill that more than 80 percent of Americans supported at the time, you would discover that it did put limits on Bush, limits that the Bush administration ignored.
Where did I say that voting for a bill was a crime? I’ve been down this road with you before, Lloyd. You don’t read carefully or accurately when you get incensed. I won’t continue to waste time refute your wrong-headed distortions of my words. If you can’t stick to what’s actually being said, I can’t engage with your further.
That said, who cares how many average citizens were fooled by the Bushies? They don’t vote in Congress last I checked. They don’t have access to inside intelligence, and that’s the way the government wants it. So bringing them into this as a defense of HRC is ridiculous. She was a senator in 2001-2 and the Sec of State in 2009-12 or so. She’s responsible for actions she took in her jobs as Senator for NY and Secretary of State for the nation.
“When you make allegations against HRC, provide links to reputable sources to prove your allegations.”
I have posted links here and there, and once to you, with regard to Hillary’s lack of judgment and warmongering.
I have been compiling and sorting information on HRC since April 2015. You could guess a few reasons why I will not post my personal database, but let’s just look at the undeniable basics:
Hillary Clinton is pro-corporate.
True.
Hillary Clinton is pro-war.
True.
Hillary Clinton is funded by “big money.”
Fact.
Hillary Clinton has gotten massively rich off public service.
Fact.
Hillary Clinton’s political M.O. is to say one thing to one crowd, another thing to another crowd, and then advocate for a different thing behind closed doors.
True. Countless examples for this, and I posted one example a few days ago to illustrate how she is doing this with TPP. Have a look at youtube where her pandering and inconsistent policy is documented in hundreds of videos, often in her own words and documents.
Hillary Clinton’s 2016 campaign, in collusion with DNC and mainstream media, made constant attempts to smear, marginalize, demonize, discredit, and disqualify Bernie Sanders and his campaign.
True. Even the Bernie supporters who followed the primary and are the worst of researchers, saw this with their own ears and heard it with their own eyes.
This is what we don’t like. It’s not a fantasy. What is easily accessible public knowledge, is plenty.
Then add the massive allegations of voter disenfranchisement and election fraud this primary season, including exit poll discrepancies which always seemed to favor Hillary but not Bernie, especially in regions with more electronic voting, and when there were no exit poll discrepancies in the Republican primaries — and when the U.N. uses exit poll discrepancies to identify election rigging and call for re-elections. How strange that this happens for Clinton, and that it’s well-documented, with some expert sources even claiming that Bernie won the entire election.
Certainly doesn’t help her credibility. Millennials who grew up using the internet can understand all of this very quickly by logging into twitter, youtube, google, or wherever. The basics of Clinton’s past and character are there for all to see. Theelection fraud and disenfranchisement is not a matter a speculation in terms of whether it happened, it’s only a matter of speculation in how much it happened, and who exactly is responsible. But, it certainly benefited Hillary Clinton.
Better than Trump? Maybe.
Not that bad? Incorrect.
Any attempts to sway Sanders voters will have to begin with acknowledging her flaws, saying that she must change some critical aspects, and then, Hillary actually doing the unlikely, and giving real solid evidence that she will go against her donors’ wishes and expectations.
Ed Detective,
If you are waiting for Hillary to change, it will be a long wait. She is what she is. If you don’t like her, vote for Trump or Stein or write in Bernie or stay home. I am voting for Hillary because I prefer her to Donald Trump. Not the lesser of two evils, but a highly qualified candidate with flaws running against a totally unqualified narcissist. Easy choice for me, but not for you.
I’m not telling you about myself, I am telling you about Sanders supporters and millions of people in this country. With Hillary tying Trump in polls and losing to him in swing states, many Sanders voters and Independents are clearly unconvinced that she is worth voting for. She doesn’t have to morph into Bernie Sanders, she simply has to rise a little bit above her ego, and her elite friends, and make a few concessions that would send a positive message to the middle class, working class, the poor. Then, she’d have millions more votes. Can she do it? Perhaps not, but you can blame Hillary if she loses, not the people she failed to convince.
To Michael Paul Goldenberg:
Please educate me your expression, “If I am not for myself, who will be for me? But if I am only for myself, who am I? If not now, when?” Ethics of the Fathers, 1:14.
Let’s take Trump’s style of doing business like a con artist and like a bully.
Trump did not have any experience in how to manage his life in business, so how can he handle America and diplomat to the world?
This gives us a hint that there is a powerful, secret and invisible power man to be his master.
Yes, IF NOT NOW, WHEN?
There is no scare tactic in the VERY OBVIOUS consequence that Americans will face whenever a leader is just a con artist without a slightest being considerate for the subordinates or a respect for any authority.
All people, who did not work for their own success, will sacrifice their own family members, their people and their country for their own survival with materialistic comfort.
They are coward.
They do not value team work.
They do not appreciate the true patriotism.
They only treasure their survival with materialistic comfort
This is not my statement , but it is the repeating history of many corrupted leaders in many countries in the world.
Educators MUST exercise their brain power while they still think clear, able to have choice and voice in the upcoming and critical chapter of democratic movement in this 21st century.
PS:
Please tell me your solution how to escape the dictator who needs lots of services from slaves who can not kill themselves because there are no AVAILABLE resources.
You are strong, but they have weapon.
You have money, they keep replacing by reducing your asset to zero.
You have connection, they use corrupted official to cheat you into death.
Finally, they completely control land, water and air in transportation so that nobody is able to move around or to communicate.
The worst case is that they use your spouse and children against you. In communist country, children are a spy for communist teachers who report back to local leaders.
Male spouse or female spouse in desperate for lust or for comfort will betray one another. This is the true reason that all immigrants with conscience will leave their communist country to work or study endlessly in order to live with humanity. These particular immigrants are law-abiding.
I pray to human conscience and logical mind to live in peace and harmony. Back2basic
Hillel, considered one of the wisest people in the history of Jewish thought, is the source.
The news of the military coup in Turkey is scrolling across my TV screen … I view a Trump presidency as the beginning of a far-right autocracy: the end of public education, a rollback of civil rights, women’s rights, and very possibly military adverturism around the world and a Supreme Court to embed these decisions for decades.
This is not fear mongering, it is simply quoting from the public Trump playbook.
Diane is absolutely correct, (as she usually is!!), this election is like no other.
Our nation, and perhaps the OECD nations, are veering precipitously to the right.
Most elections, unfortunately, are tweedle dum versus tweedle dee, not this election.
I fear that sitting on the sidelines, a vote for Trump, could send our nation, and the Western world hurtling to a catastrophe.
I am voting for Hillary and contributing to her campaign because, to use an old-fashioned term, Trump is the Anti-Christ.
If you seriously believe in the very idea of an antichrist, I’d say we operate in different universes. For the radical right, Obama has been the antichrist. I’m waiting for the recruiting posters for the Armies of Satan to show up in my neighborhood: my son’s looking for a career.
Trump is as much of an “antichrist” as is Obama. The more hysterical bilge the Hillary Clinton posse offers, the more plausible a vote for Trump seems to be. While I’m not going to vote for him, I’m not voting for her, either.
Paul,
I’ll take patriotism over your brand of idealism any day. There’s too much at stake to stay stuck on philosophical arguments. Come Nov. 8th, one of them is going to win and we better choose right.
drroasire, First, as I’ve stated on this very thread already, my name is Michael. Paul is my middle name. I’m truly gobsmacked at the number of readers here who can’t seem to manage to get it right.
Second, you’re entitled to your notions of patriotism, as am I. I’m not making any more of a “philosophical” argument than are you. You just think you know better than I what is the right choice for me. And I assure you that it is NOT voting for Hillary Rodham Clinton. Not in November. Not in March. Not 8 years ago. Not 4 years from now. In other words, to be crystal-clear: I will never cast my vote for her for any office.
Since you and some others disagree, you should by all means vote for her, though my hope is that you do not. Nor do I hope you vote for Donald Trump instead. I certainly will not. But the fact that we differ on what to do doesn’t grant you the right to find ways to belittle me or other folks here as having some “brand of idealism” as if we were children. I’m 66 years old. I’ve seen a lot of American political history. I’m pretty well read on what led up to this century. I think Hillary Clinton represents the problem, not the solution. And hence, I won’t vote for her. I’m finished with the “lesser of two evils” approach to presidential politics. We’ve had decades of the Imperial Presidency. We have been engaged in constant wars now for more consecutive years than I’ve been alive. We are despised around the world with good reason. I’m not sure where “patriotism” comes into the conversation at this point when we’re choosing between a racist blowhard and a neoliberal/neo- conservative war hawk who is embraced by the likes of Henry Kissinger. There is blood on her hands from her tenure as Secretary of State. There’s blood on her hands from her service on the board of Wal-Mart. She is already lining up to shed more blood in Syria. I seriously fear that she will be shedding blood in the Ukraine and possibly in Asia. Where’s the “patriotism” in voting for her? Let me suggest that American troops have had more than enough of that sort of patriotism. To quote Bill Ayers, we don’t owe them our thanks; we owe them an apology.
Michael,
Trump has pledged to shoot Iran’s little boats “out of the water” if they make rude gestures to our destroyers. He has pledged to invest hundreds of billions in expanding the military. He has pledged to destroy public education. He will spend billions to build his “big beautiful wall” to keep Mexicans out. He will revive torture and he will order the troops to torture captives. He will encourage nuclear proliferation. He will round up and deport 11 million undocumented immigrants with no path to citizenship except leaving and applying. He believes climate change is a hoax. He will oppose gun control. He said just last night that he will not yet concede that President Obama was born in Hawaii.
And you don’t care if he is elected President?
You forgot to list the world leaders that back and support Donald Trump.
Vladimir Putin
A Trump presidency would likely be beneficial for Russia — the billionaire has espoused an isolationist foreign policy, criticized NATO, and expressed personal admiration for Putin.
Geert Wilders
“Wilder’s political career has been defined, in large part, by anti-Islam statements. He produced a film in 2008 juxtaposing the Koran with 9/11 and other attacks, and compared the Koran to Adolf Hitler’s Mein Kampf in 2011.”
Matteo Salvini
“Salvini has expressed a number of radical views throughout his political career — including a claim in February that Benito Mussolini did great things as a World War II ally of Adolf Hitler.”
Kim Jong Un of North Korea, who calls Trump a “wise politician” and a “far-sighted presidential candidate,” lauding his proposal to pull US troops out of South Korea.”
It’s estimated that 4 million people died during the Korean War. Anyone interested might want to read what Business Insider had to say in “A Look at North Korea’s Artillery Shows Why No One Wants War”. No link provided. Just Google it.
Nigel Farage, a leader in the UK’s pro-Brexit campaign.
“Trump has repeatedly praised the British people’s decision to leave the EU, a campaign which was motivated in part by anti-immigrant and anti-establishment sentiment — some of the same forces which have propelled Trump to his position as Republican nominee.”
Marin Le Pen
Her father was removed from party leadership last year over his extreme views — he has called Nazi occupation not “particularly inhumane” and suggested that Ebola could solve Europe’s “immigration problem.,” for instance.
Victor Orban
“Like Trump, Orban has pushed for the construction of border walls in his country, and has argued against admitting Syrian refugees.”
Robert Mugabe, one of Africa’s most notorious dictators, who has ruled Zimbabwe since 1980.
Mugabe has been quoted as saying you will wish that you treated me better once Trump is president of the U.S.
http://www.businessinsider.com/which-world-leaders-support-trump-2016-7/#vladimir-putin-1
Lloyd (and others), in the game of good guys/bad guys, how much is one Henry Kissinger worth? Because his closeness to Hillary Clinton should strike fear into the hearts of progressive people of good will everywhere. Why doesn’t it seem to shake up many Clinton supporters? Is it that they don’t realize he is close to her? That he’s a very, very bad human being? Or could it be that perhaps many of her supporters aren’t quite as progressive as they would like the world to believe? Or just don’t know what progressive politics means?
Shall I throw in Zbigniew Brzezinski? Another marvelous human being who is perhaps even closer to the Clinton advisory team on foreign policy.
I honestly don’t care one fig for what foreign political folks say about Trump. They aren’t in his inner circle. I’m far more concerned about the views of the people the POTUS takes counsel from than who praises him in the press. Talk is cheap, particularly in the media. But we saw the outcome of the advisors George W. Bush listened to, before and after 9/11. Not very pretty. And we’re still in the midst of that sort of neoliberal/neoconservative conducting of foreign policy.
Which of course leads me to the fact that many of us thought Barack Obama was going to be fabulous for progressives, was going to be the anti-Bush, was going to get us out of Iraq and Afghanistan, would not put us into Libya or Syria or. . . And that he would be fantastic for public education. How much more wrong could we have been? But we HAD to vote for him because look at the alternatives: McCain and (shudder!) Palin! Then it was Romney and (shudder!) Ryan.
So now we MUST vote for Hillary Clinton, someone I’m never going to be able to pretend is a liberal, let alone a progressive, regardless of her rhetoric or campaign slogans, because (shudder) Trump and (shudder) Pence?
Not buying it. Not if Vladimir Putin takes a two-page ad out in the NY TIMES endorsing Trump or God the Almighty takes one out endorsing Clinton.
As for the latest poor reader who states that I “don’t care if Trump is elected”: where did I say that or imply it? What does a literate human being make of “I hope that Trump gets zero votes. I also hope that Clinton gets zero votes?” How does that translate into “I don’t care if Trump is elected,” please? To be clear: I dearly wish that neither of them gets elected. I prefer that we elect a NON-Imperial president. Start with Bernie Sanders. Consider Jill Stein. Your local mail carrier, the person who collects your garbage, a stranger on the street, might all be better choices than the two major party candidates right now. But the “Either Trump or Clinton will win so you absolutely have no choice but to pick one of them” argument leaves me completely cold. That’s my decision, not anyone else’s. I haven’t been jumping in here to argue the point lately, except when someone(s) decide it is incumbent upon him or her to attack me, insult me, or try to convince me that I’m wrong. If over a year of similar arguments hasn’t moved me to want to cast a vote for Hillary Clinton, I suspect there isn’t an argument to be made that will do so. I don’t trust her, believe her, support her, or believe for a single second that she will be good for this country other than for herself, her family, and the 1%. Too many folks on Wall Street, too many Republicans, and most significantly, too many demonstrably horrific people regarding foreign policy are behind her (sometimes very closely behind her, as in whispering in her ear). She had no compunctions about serving on the board of Wal-Mart. I haven’t heard her once disown that decision or attack that horrid corporation or the family that owns it or their vociferous and monetary support for privatization and charter schools.
You want to know why Hillary is way more frightening than Donald? When he gets a reactionary idea, it comes out of his mouth. When she gets one, she tries to pretend to her more liberal constituents that she’s “a progressive who likes to get things done.” And exactly half of that is true: the second half. I’ll be the first to admit that Obama suckered me in 2008. But not in 2012. And I’m not going to be fooled by the far less slick Hillary Clinton in 2016. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe y’all are right this time, even if you missed the trickery of the Obama campaign. If so, you can say, “I told you so” to me down the road. I can live with it. But I won’t vote against my own heart or mind.
Totally agree about Obama…”Duplicitor”-in-Chief. I too voted for him in 2008 but not in 2012. I will write in Bernie Sanders.
Thanks, Michael Brocoum. Nice to find some support/sympatico. I tend to feel outnumbered (if not outgunned) here, but I am on so many pro-Sanders and related FaceBook pages that it’s not like I believe the viewpoint that dominates here on the election is universal. Some of my old pals have been with Hillary early on. Some not. Most of the folks that backed Sanders still do so or are backing Jill Stein. I’m wavering between writing in Sanders and voting for Stein and plan to wait for more information before deciding. Still a way to go, and meanwhile, not a single debate between the “big guns.”
Sanders is campaigning for Hillary. I don’t think a write in for him can transfer to Hillary.
Diane Ravitch wrote: “Sanders is campaigning for Hillary. I don’t think a write in for him can transfer to Hillary.”
Yes, he is. But as many of his supporters will tell you, that isn’t what we signed on for with him, to follow his lead blindly. I won’t go into why many of us think he’s been forced into this situation and suffice it to say that he also said that he’d NEVER tell us whom to vote for and that if he did, we shouldn’t listen to him. And in this case, I’m not. But even without that last statement of his, I wouldn’t follow him in any way to support HRC or to vote for her.
Second, after the primaries, I’m not sure that a legal vote cast for Sanders wouldn’t transfer to Hillary or Trump or the Pope. Your mileage may vary and no doubt does. Were my faith in the honesty of the voting process not so shaken by what’s already happened this year, I’d say that it was a GOOD thing that my write-in for Bernie wouldn’t transfer to ANYONE. It should not. But seriously, I have become very skeptical of the vote-counting process and much else connected with our so-called free elections. I am amazed that the entire country isn’t similarly in doubt.
No! No! No to Donald Trump!
I don’t care about any allegations that Hillary Clinton is a crook. Even if she dies and no other democrat takes her place, the U.S. would be better off with Hillary dead or alive in the White House. I will not vote for Donald Trump. He is far worse that Hillary has ever been.
I think anyone that votes for Trump is either a paid for minion or a total ignorant, biased, racist fool.
Donald Trump is being supported by a list of America’s most dangerous enemies from Putin, to the leader of North Korea, to a brutal dictator in Africa. In addition, The New York Daily News reports, “ISIS extremists rooting for Trump to win presidential election”.
Since when has Kissinger run around beheading women and men and selling younger women into sexual slavery?
Oh, Lloyd, you’re killing me here. Did I say I was voting for Trump? Anyone here say that s/he was voting for him? Did I recommend that anyone do so (what part of “I hope he gets zero votes” do you not get?)
I can’t comment on the notion of voting for a corpse, even Hillary’s, for POTUS, particularly as I don’t support her running mate, either. But if the nominee expires or is jailed, disqualified, or quits before November, do come talk to me. I know an “alte kaker” from Vermont you might want to consider voting for.
As for ISIS v. Kissinger: honestly, Lloyd, which is responsible for more deaths of innocent human beings? Which is responsible for the deaths of more AMERICANS? ISIS would need a much bigger budget and membership to catch up. And decade upon decade to do so.
Michael, if something happened to cause Hillary Clinton to drop out of the race before the election (and, seriously, this is simply not going to take place), it won’t be up to you or to Lloyd to choose the new candidate. It would be up to the leadership of the Democrats, as per Democratic Party rules. That would be the honchos in the Democratic National Committee.
They’re not going to be choosing Bernie Sanders. They would most likely choose either Joe Biden or Tim Kaine. I would suspect Biden.
Not my choice, but there it is.
It’s a scenario that won’t be happening, anyway.
(The Republican Party has similar rules, as well.)
If something should happen after the election to the winner of the Electoral College votes, then that party’s Vice-Presidential winner becomes the President Elect.
You’re are right. I looked that up a couple of days ago.
MPG,
I think you should worry about your pension and social security. I don’t think it’s far out to believe that Trump and a GOP Congress would privatize them. Into the stock market!
Diane, there’s a theme to these posts and comments: they boil down to fear. Your last comment is just one of many that aim to find someone’s weak spot to send him/her scampering to Camp Clinton. I’m immune. Because my not voting for her isn’t tantamount to the election of a GOP Congress. I will vote Democratic in every other contest, barring some strong reason to prefer another candidate for a given slot. As I’ve mentioned here before, Michigan has had exactly one GOP senator since I moved here in ’92, and he lasted one term and was never heard from again politically. There’s no indication that we’re going to see the GOP take over the Senate, and some reason to believe that the Dems will make gains there (not to 60 votes, but close) and in the House (though not to retake it). I’d blame that failure to get a stranglehold on both houses on the DNC’s horrid judgment in this pre-election cycle, but regardless, no one can suggest I’m working for the GOP to win or the Dems to lose any down-ticket race. I’m simply not with HER or her running mate for POTUS nor for her official GOP MONSTER opponent. So when will folks her face facts: there are smart people of good will and progressive political thinking who won’t vote for her or the Donald? You just don’t have a boogie man in the closet that will get me to vote for her. Maybe something marvelous about how great she’ll be for the nation, the world, for public schools? But there isn’t anything of substance. On the contrary, which is why so many of us voted for Obama and against her in ’08. She hasn’t done a thing to reduce the impression that she’s a bad apple in the ensuing 8 years. On the contrary: her tenure as Sec. of State was the nail in the coffin as far as I’m concerned.
Meanwhile, there are down ticket candidates to celebrate and support, starting with NY’s own Zephyr Teachout. Wish I could vote for her.
MPG,
Unlike you, I am afraid of Trump. You know why. Every word out of his mouth.
Oh, MPG,
Did I say you were voting for Trump. Correct me if I forgot what I wrote, but I think I said that “I” wasn’t voting for Trump, and “I” added what I thought about the fools who were.
I did my homework and wrote a post about Trump and Clinton. And I think a vote or write in for anyone but Clinton is the same as a vote for Trump.
https://lloydlofthouse.org/2016/07/29/dont-let-your-emotions-decide-who-you-will-vote-for-in-the-2016-presidential-election/
Not to defend Trump, but I’m confused what Turkey has to do with him? The U.S. can’t have been unaware of this coming, yet we have continued to do very profitable business with Fethullah Gulen. Trump isn’t in office yet, he has had no part of any decisions. If you’re looking for blame, you could look to our current president.
I don’t see a connection between Trump and the attempted coup in Turkey.
I see a possible connection between the attempted coup and the Gulen charter chain in the US.
What I can’t understand is why states are allowing foreign nationals to take control of “public” schools
Dienne, you’ve surely picked up here today, if you didn’t already know it, that in moderate and liberal circles, as long as in some RINO circles, Donald Trump is the living manifestation of EVERY EVIL in the history of the world. He MUST be responsible for the situation in Turkey, if only in spirit if not in deed. He’s probably already been elected, gone back in time in his personal time machine, and stirred up the nest in Ankarra.
Michael,
I don’t hold Trump responsible for every evil in the world.
I take him at his word. He wants to ban Muslims; he wants to deport 11 million undocumented people; he wants to remove gun controls and abolish gun-free zones around schools; he wants to reinstate torture; he thinks climate change is a hoax; he selected a rightwing extremist as his VP candidate. Why should anyone make up stuff about Trump? What he says is awful enough
I wasn’t suggesting that YOU think Trump is responsible for all the world’s evil. (That’s the Jews, according to Mel Gibson). Just noting the increasing demonization of Mr. Trump in the liberal/centrist media, where HRC gets mostly a free pass. There have been stories in recent weeks about his former butler and a former advisor, the operative word being “former.” These stories are considered strong indictments of Trump by the authors and by many readers/commenters. I find this bizarre, really.
Ms. Ravitch–I’ve appreciated greatly your recent work and willingness to let evidence rather than ideology redefine your perceptions and policies to support. But this post has you very close to being dumped from my bookmarks. I realize that that means nothing to you or your hit counts, but it’s something that someone who professes to understand reality now would consider seriously.
Mike,
I would be sorry to lose you as a reader.
I post all sorts of things.
I thought the article was interesting.
You don’t have to agree with everything you read.
I welcome vigorous dissent.
Forest Gump: Donald Trump is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you’re gonna get.
(Hillary Clinton is also like a box of chocolates. If you don’t eat them, someone will accuse you of not being able to love.)
I’d say that the problem with HRC is that we know exactly what we’re getting: it just has virtually nothing to do with her promises.
Michael, with Trump you know exactly what you will get. A very extreme right winger. Do you want that?
First, Diane, I’m not convinced that any of us, including Donald Trump, knows exactly what he believes or will do. But he isn’t owned by Wall Street or anyone else as far as I know (which is no guarantee that he ISN’T beholden to some individuals or groups; just that if he is, there’s no evidence of which I’m aware). Hillary appears to me to be owned by Wall Street and specific corporate influences. Others here have offered some thoughts on who that is. I see no strong reason to doubt that.
Second, I am NOT supporting Trump. How many times do I need to state that before people will stop suggesting otherwise? I hope he gets zero votes. I also hope that Hillary Clinton gets zero votes. That should be pretty simple to grasp and I’m 100% certain that you and others here understand it perfectly. It’s just not the answer Hillary supporters wish to hear. They want everyone to stand with them standing with her. And in my case, that will NEVER happen. And I’m not alone in that. She’s doing nothing to change that. And telling me that Donald Trump is Satan, the antichrist, an arch-conservative, or the reincarnation of Saddam Hussein isn’t going to scare me into voting for HER. I will either write in Sanders or vote for Jill Stein, assuming no other viable candidacy emerges.
Donald Trump doesn’t scare me enough to vote for Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton doesn’t scare me enough to vote for Donald Trump. Each nauseates me more than sufficiently to vote for someone else.
I guess that makes me one horrid human being. I can live with that. People have pegged me as a political monster for over 45 years.
So, what I was trying to say was that Trump, who was once a Democrat who contributed to Democratic office holders like the Clintons, is not necessarily the Tea Party demagogue that he is being portrayed to be. He is a question mark. He could just as likely wind up appointing a Supreme Court justice who wants to overturn Citizens United and uphold Roe v Wade as he is to appoint another Clarence Thomas. All we know is that he’s not really a Republican or a Democrat.
Everyone keeps saying we have to vote for Calamity Hill to keep Wild Don Hickok out of office, that she is the lesser of two evils. I’m saying no one really knows that. I’m not voting for him, but I don’t fear him as much as I do real billionaires and the international media companies, tech companies, and politicians they own and control. I fear the expansive machine in which HRC is a cog. Trump is not the lesser of two evils, as far as we know. As far as we know, neither is she.
You want me to vote for Clinton? Give me valid reasons to support her. (The new platform was a modest start. Scrapping the TTP is a good thing) “Fear the boogeyman” is not a valid reason to vote for a candidate.
Left Coast Teacher,
Like her or not, Hillary is probably the best prepared candidate ever to run for the Presidency. Her knowledge of both domestic and foreign affairs is unparalleled.
Her experiences include promoting regressive policies that continue to hurt poor people and people of color, lying about facing fire on the ground in Kosovo (her doing that knowing how easily it could be exploded as a lie by fact-checking suggests that her judgment is rather awful), serving on the board of Wal-Mart, and helping to see Khaddafi killed, then gloating about it. She serves the wishes of Bibi Netanyahu, a person who should be prosecuted for war crimes, if not out and out genocide (or do we think she was lying at AIPAC this year)?
That’s a lot of experience. Not good experience, however. What’s she prepared herself for, exactly?
That’s good. Thank you, Diane.
Have just read all the comments. Most agree that Trump would be a disaster; the dividing line seems to be: I will vote for hrc because I like her/her politics; I will not vote for hrc because I hate her/her politics and therefore will not vote for her and will vote for Jill Stein or not at all.
I say, remember that voting for Nader (sp?) gave us 8 years of Bush, the Iraqi War, the collapse of our economy and no health care plan. Any nonvote or vote for another candidate does contribute to the possibility of a Trump presidency. This means choosing right wing supreme court justices and, most frightening, HAVING ACCESS TO OUR NUCLEAR CODES! !!!! The guy is a nut, a fraud and completely unstable!!!! Please take some of these thoughts into consideration when November rolls around.
Oh stop. Nader did not bring us Bush. Can we please kill that zombie now? About 300,000 registered Democrats in Florida voted for Bush. Fewer than 100,000 voted for Nader. Gore was riding the coattails of a president who was extremely popular at the time and running against a failed businessman whose only qualification was his last name. While I’m as appalled as anyone by the Supreme Court’s actions that election, if Gore had been any kind of decent candidate, it never would have come to that anyway. Hell, he couldn’t even win his home state.
Al Gore’s failure to carry Tennessee was more of a demographic phenomenon than a political failing. The old coalition inTennessee politics that had produced Estes Kefaufer and Al Gore Sr was gone by 2000. Tennessee has become a state dominated by the Republican Party today, and the people moving here from other parts of the US made it so. Our continued expansion will continue to change us, in some ways for the better, in some ways for the worse. Lester Ward was famous for saying that change was a constant.
The Lewinsky scandal greatly damaged Bill Clinton in his second term and was a huge distraction/hindrance to the Gore campaign. Arguably Gore chose Lieberman as his running mate due to his moral high ground / religiosity in contrast to Clinton, a decision which seemed to backfire since Lieberman didn’t help him secure the win.
The Lewinsky scandal was a greater factor than Nader in the 2000 election.
There is also the issue of the 2016 Senate vote. There is a realistic chance that the Democrats could regain control of the Senate. The ambivalence (and as seen here, extreme antipathy) that many people feel about HRC could hurt those chances, given the phenomenon of straight ticket voting.
Of course the same is true of Trump, possibly more so.
So you suggest that people who despise Trump would not vote for progressive Democrats just because they also happen to despise Hillary? Funny, but I hear no such talk among the THOUSANDS of Berniecrats with whom I’m in contact. Also, straight ticket voting was just done away with in Michigan. I wouldn’t be surprised to see that done elsewhere that the GOP controls things. But since we’re talking about people who actually THINK about politics – progressive Sanders supporters who see HRC as a very poor alternative – they’re not going to be too stupid that they can’t pull the lever for Jill Stein or write in Bernie, and then vote for a progressive Democrat for any other office said person is seeking.
Not all Americans are brain-damaged morons. Very few folks I know who support Bernie and don’t like Hillary are even close to being the sort of imbecile you describe.
Paul, I’m simply suggesting that there may be a more substantial difference between a Clinton presidency and a Trump presidency than some people seem to think. You’re a smart guy and you seem to have made a calculated decision that the downside of voting for Hillary Clinton is worse than the downside of a Trump presidency. I disagree, for reasons I’ve mentioned as well as other reasons. I not trying to convince you that Hillary Clinton is a good person or would be a great president. I don’t think you’re sexist, and I don’t think the article Diane posted is remotely compelling. I’m not trying to bully or manipulate you or anyone else. I just think that if you live in a swing state, you should consider whether you may be underestimating the cost of a Trump win.
Some years ago there was an article that took mathematical measures of chaos and analyzed the period before WWI. They took a decidedly non scientific approach, but came to an obvious conclusion: One of the major contributors to the tragedy that was known then as “The Great War” was the number of factors that were unfamiliar to the leaders of the time and the inexperience and xenophobia of those leaders.
If we choose self-interest over diplomacy, this will ultimately happen again. Indeed it seems to the son of a Tennessee farmer that his world has crumbled into all manner of people who can accuse each other of everything from incompetence to fraud, but who cannot walk even an inch in the shoes of others.
My farmer father could read only with difficulty, but he knew that Ghandi was a leader with fresh vision, even though his leadership did not come from my father’s own Christian background. Winston Churchill, a great man of letters suggested Ghandi was a Hitler. My father turned out to be closer to the truth.
We never know what a leader will do. So I tend to vote for those who sound conciliatory and who are willing to compromise. We need a steady, reasonable person leading the world’s most important representative government. We need experience, not chaos that will descend into more of the disorder that so characterizes our time.
Vote for who ever you choose, but please consider qualities that lead away from hostility. We need that.
Agree that Trump should be removed from consideration. The nation has HRC to stop Trump. The nation needs a sufficient candidate, with more than a conciliatory tone. The nation needs a sufficient candidate that has demonstrated willingness to, boldly and immediately, stop concentration of wealth, because it has a strangle hold on the economy and government. It is extremely difficult to pull the lever for an insufficient candidate.
Seems to be an on-going problem here reading my name. It’s Michael.
My middle name is Paul. I use my full name professionally. No one other than some careless readers ever addresses me by my middle name. When people reply to my comments with “Paul,” I have to check to see who’s being addressed and find myself surprised when I realize I’m that person.
Same fear mongering. Vote for her because he’s worse. I FEAR THEM BOTH! If Betnie doesn’t get the nomination I will fight like crazy to get Jill Stein elected.
Hear, hear!
Karen, That was in July. This is now. Your fight for Jill is sadly lost.Now what? Fear mongering or not, we all have a very important choice to make.
Thank you. Common sense always welcome.
Trump and Clinton are tied in latest polls.
Today, Trump promised a massive cut in corporate income taxes. What will federal government cut with lower revenues?
Diane, I understand your concerns and am convinced that you’ll vote as you see fit.But some of us get a different result. It’s not that we can’t do the calculations. It’s that we have a different equation. I’ve written far too much here to elaborate further. I’ll just say that my math comes out differently because I don’t weight the variables the same way.