As expected, the New York Board of Regents adopted the punitive system of educator evaluation, based mainly on student test scores, by a vote of 10-6. The same six Regents who opposed the system last June, opposed it again yesterday; all six of the dissenting votes come from experienced educators.
To soften the blow to teachers, the Regents added an appeals process for those who want to challenge their rating.
At this point, those seeking a return to sanity await the decision in State Supreme Court in the case of Sheri Lederman, a fourth grade teacher who sued to invalidate the system.
Has anyone in Governor Cuomo’s office figured out where they will find better teachers to replace those who are fired as a result of his eagerness to oust teachers?
Diane Ravitch's blog 
As a retired teacher, I would not encourage anyone to pursue a career In teaching.
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As a former teacher, I concur.
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As a current teacher I agree.
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Sad, isn’t it? I hope the profession becomes great. I’d go back in a second.
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They will use computers with minimally trained overseers with a hundred students per monitor.
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Yes, that’s the plan. It has been the plan for years. Just because you put a computer in front of kids it doesn’t mean they will learn.
Telling article in yesterday’s Wall Street Journal,”Technology in Classrooms Doesn’t Always Boost Education Results, OECD Says”
http://www.wsj.com/articles/technology-in-classrooms-doesnt-always-boost-education-results-oecd-says-1442343420
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Learning is not the point to ANY of this Rheeform BS. It’s about making money and maintaining social and political control for the purposes of keeping an increasingly stratified class system in place. Nothing more.
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I’ve seen kids sit in front of computers supposedly doing remedial work to help them improve. Boredom sets in pretty quickly.
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When is the Lederman decision due? Is the judge independent enough to stand up for what’s right?
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It was stated in an article that a decision is expected 60-90 days from the date of the hearing (which took place mid August).
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Can anyone imagine Quid Pro Quomo imposing a statewide evaluation system on brain surgeons–or lawyers? So this Board of Regents just caved in on the entire concept that education had to remain above politics. The Tusch-Cuomo alliance has turned education in NY State into a complete fiasco. The sad fact is this is not inept leadership–this is two closely aligned operatives achieving their goal of promoting privatization. PATHETIC!
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Diane, thanks again for the great news!!!! I might add that I understand TFA can’t place about 90% of its candidates. I would recommend all districts in need of teachers to reach out to them so they can hire some of the TFAer’s not placed. Or…
Districts could reach out to the engineering departments of every major university in the US. Post-docs often get research jobs making $40K/yr. Almost every teacher in the US (when you include pension contributions) with a masters/doctorate+ makes more than that. Districts can works with the job placement departments at these universities and hire great STEM majors who could drastically improve their students’ math/science understanding (and tangentially test scores). Good luck!
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Virginia,
Do you think a post-doc in engineering would be able to teach 28 kids in third grade?
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Diane,
You will never convince this guy that someone with almost a PhD in her field with 23 years of experience (thats me) is a better teacher than someone who has had 6 weeks training. Also, just because someone has a great deal of knowledge in his or her field doesn’t necessarily mean this person can TEACH or would even WANT to teach at this point!
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Mamie, agreed. Virginia is here to challenge us. Maybe we will persuade him but I don’t think he is open to new ideas
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Diane, some could, others could not. For those not familiar with the STEM college track, STEM majors don’t pay for grad school. Unlike most other majors, STEM graduate students either take a TA (teaching assistant) or RA (research assistant) role and work for their tuition. Thus, most have extensive experience teaching students. College level students albeit, but teaching maybe 100+ students nonetheless. It includes grading and close interaction via recitations each week. Many STEM students will tell you the TAs had much greater ability to teach than their professors. And I can guarantee you that these STEM post-docs have undertaken much more difficult schedules at some point in their college careers than any teacher ever has (I woke up by 6:30am during my senior year and would generally return from lab between 10pm and midnight every day during my junior year).
So how would they translate to the third grade. Some parents are naturals with kids. Other parents can’t wait to put their kids in full-day daycare. Those who are naturals can generally explain topics well and are engaged with kids. The same applies to the post-docs (who by the way, were likely TAs at some point). But the key is that all those post-docs would have unimpeachable subject matter expertise. There is no question they understand scientific principles as well as the specific content.
Now, even though folks enjoy kids and have knowledge doesn’t mean they will automatically be effective teachers. That’s why we need to measure their performance via VAMs. But this is no different than well-intentioned education majors who end up not being effective or highly rated NFL QB draftees who never learn to read an NFL defense. The answer is we’ll know in a couple of years but there is a greater chance for them to be effective than education majors. TFA has showed us that.
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Virginia, there is a huge difference between teaching adults, who are there willingly and often at great cost, and teaching a class of children.
I beg you: try it. For a week. Or a day. I double dare you.
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I triple dog dare you!!!!!
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Someone well schooled in a field often is unaware of the implicit assumptions of knowledge for that field and don’t know the sequence for teaching those basic skills or evaluating and re-teaching them if needed.
Students who are compulsorily in school are far more immature and need far different structures than a college student who made it to college through a some selective (self selective) process and want to be there and have reasons (except for maybe core unrelated classes) to learn what they are learning.
Just because someone has a post doc in a content area doesn’t mean they know how to educate the lowest levels of that field (for instance – how many different tactile ways to teach division in elementary schools and to present it for different learners).
There is a value to understanding the learning process and the different methods to structure materials for classes of varying sizes with varying types of learners almost all of whom are being told to be there rather than implicitly desiring to be there (what student ever said “gee I would LOVE to learn about decimals…what are they?) – you need to build engagement for stuff students have no idea exists yet.
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So who is your poster child for this person who has content knowledge but is clueless on how to teach? Would you propose that Sal Khan of the Khan Academy is representative of your postion? Sal only got a STEM degree, worked in the hedge fund industry, created tutorials for his cousin because his cousin has p*** poor teachers, and then built one of the most comprehensive library of intuitive educational videos known to man. I guess he’s shown that it’s impossible for intelligent STEM degree majors with zero educational experience to teach kids 10x better than teachers with 30+ years, eh?
Who do you thinks teaches their children when kids come home from school with no idea what the math teacher was trying to teach? Why, those are STEM major parents. We are horrified at what’s going on in school. Unfortunately, not every kid has a STEM major parent at home who can mitigate the effects of non-STEM teachers in math class who have no comprehension of intuitive math concepts.
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Virginia, I do have a poster child. A young woman, a daughter of an old friend, earned her degree with honors from an Ivy League University, then took a master’s at Oxford. She returned to the U.S., got alternative certification, and was hired by a very well respected urban high school to teach her subject. She knew everything except how to connect to the students. She couldn’t explain things in ways they understood. They lost respect for her. She couldn’t control the class. She quit in mid-year. An anecdote does not make for a trend or for data, but you offered Sal Khan. If you believe teaching is a profession, only professionals should teach. If you believe that anyone can teach, say so. I will disagree.
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Diane, I accept your premise that not everyone is cut out to teach. Not even those who think they are. You see, the more the opt-out activists talk, the more hypocritical canyons you all fall in.
1. As I discussed with NFL QB draftees, only 50% of less make it. The draftees look great in college, at the combine and on paper. But nobody really knows how they will read NFL defenses under pressure. The same applied on our subs. We were trained to react to casualties in the nuclear reactor (unusual situations or faults) and to steady the reactor and then restore power. Unlike a civilian power plant, your only source of long-term power is that reactor so you not only must keep it safe but quickly restore it. When all h**** breaks loose in the control room with bells and whistles going off, it’s difficult to keep your calm and diagnose the cause from the symptoms. Often, the alarms can mean radically different events are taking place and you must determine which combination of signals will allow you to properly diagnose the event. Some folks could make these judgments quickly while also managing all of the personnel on the team who are trying to assist and communicating to other areas of the sub. Others couldn’t. But we didn’t know until you were tested in real drills.
The same applies for the post-docs, TFAs, or STEM majors. Now, I will concede that only about 50% are probably cut out for teaching. I have no evidence for this other than my own observations so real numbers would be needed. And I’m only suggesting that 50% of those that think they would like to teach are really cut out for it. Those who have no interest or don’t enjoy kids would not apply. Thus, we actually want the high attrition rate of TFA. If I am a company like Google or Facebook and I want the best, I’m incented to review as many candidates as possible. Then, I select the best. Of course, I want to review the candidates with the most potential, but just like an NFL draftee or a prospective sub officer, I still must test their mettle.
2. So here is the part that destroys your position. You would have us believe that college students with a good heart and who love kids are perfectly suited for teaching. Just because someone wants to major in education, they will make an excellent teacher. Because the way the system is setup now, virtually all students who want to major in education are approved (very low academic standards). Upon graduation, they are provided a teaching job and over 99% of them are rated effective. Nobody believes that. Even the 17% that decide to leave in the first five years are not removed because of performance but rather because they decide to pursue another career. So you would have us believe that large numbers of post-docs, STEM majors and career switchers are simply “incapable” of teaching but education majors are a great fit 99%+ of the time? On what world is this rational?
We must go back to your dear friend Hanushek, Diane. He points out that while we would like to believe SAT, GPA or some other interview could predict success in the classroom, currently it’s simply not possible to forecast the effectiveness of teachers very well. Yes, SATs and the selectivity of colleges help. But they are nowhere near close to perfect. Thus, the only way to see if a STEM major can teach 28 third graders is to let him try and evaluate his performance objectively. The same goes with an education major who has a good heat and a mediocre SAT. She might become the greatest teacher in the history of the world. Or maybe not. But we owe it to those students to measure the effetiveness.
Donna, such a sophisticated argument (“you are a fool”) from a clearly sophisticated opt-out activist.
Rendo (who still can’t understand his last name should be “National Board Certified Teacher”), Tim gives me the best reference material I find on this site (the private school reqts for standardized tests).
As for all of those who challenge me to teach, I am prepared to take a week off and teach in my local school. However, they kind of hate me right now because I mock the foolish administrators who want to end teachers’ tests of students in lieu of “projects”. Remember, this is the same district who supported a principal forcing grade inflation when teachers formally complained (the teachers were just a “rumor mill” and should stop providing evidence of wanton abuse by the principal). In fact, their lawyer is so scared of me deposing their officials, she has demanded the “protection of a judge” when I question them as a pro se petitioner. Aren’t lawyers supposed to get excited when they go up against a pro se counsel? Maybe it’s because I intend to have folks testify under oath they committed fraud by intentionally circumventing the requirements of ESEA with regard to growth measures. If you get me a school to teach, I will take you up on it. We need to place some wagers on the results though. Makes it more interesting.
Daniel Spaniel, I think your point is well taken with respect to Ed. D’s. They clearly are not interested in research since they head back to their school districts and ask for a raise. It’s just a paper diploma to earn more money. Ed. D.’s (most) are a complete joke and nobody in the STEM fields respect that paper as a real doctorate.
Former Teacher, is it possible for non-STEM majors to teach math well? Of course. Intelligent people can choose to major in all types of fields (philosophy) But many of those math teachers taught you formulas which did not serve you (or other less capable students) well in the later grades. Instead of teaching that multiplication is the expansion in an additional dimension ( 4 * 8 is really a line four units long expanded into a rectangle 8 units wide or 2 * 3 * 4 is a 2×3 rectangle raised to a height of 4 units to make a rectangular prism) they just taught you the mechanics of multiplying numbers. Then they taught you the “associative” property. So it would be difficult for you to remember that you can multiply in any order (change the orientation of of the prism) without affecting the product 6 months after you last reviewed it.
And remember Rafe? I don’t think he has a STEM degree. But based on these VAMs from the LA Times, I would love for him to teach my child math as well. That is, as long as he doesn’t molest them (just kidding, well, maybe).
Khan did reach a lot of your students. You just didn’t know it. But that’s not the model of Khan Academy. All of the reformers understand teachers are THE most important part of the equation. We don’t want teachers lecturing. We want the best lectures presented to the students as the intro to a lesson. When you flip the classroom, the students watch the video at home to get an understanding of the subject. Then, in the classroom the teacher can focus in on where students have issues. Many students will understand the video and can work on enrichment. But the teacher can now provide additional examples for those who don’t understand. That increases the teacher’s value. The best-of-breed video is cheap. The teachers individual attention is what fills in the holes.
Ok, I know folks had lots more questions which I’ll try to answer tonight. Was rather busy yesterday so I didn’t to them all. Will try to tonight.
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Virginia, I am disappointed in you. I had the distinct impression that you spend 8-10 hours a day reading and commenting on this blog,and now you tell me you are too busy to knock down every single person who comments other than you and a few like-minded fellas.
To clarify, Virginia, I believe that teaching is a profession. To be a professional requires professional study and practice. Would you want to be treated by a “doctor” who never went to medical school? Would you want to be represented by a lawyer who never went to law school and didn’t pass the bar? How about flying with a pilot who taught himself to fly and scorns a license or certification?
Hanushek reduces everything to test scores. He can’t find a correlation between high test scores and any teacher attribute; he is rather coy because the biggest correlate with test scores is family income. Because of his belief in test scores, he says that you can’t judge teacher quality until you have at least three years of test scores. The logical conclusion is that anyone at all should be allowed to teach; we will find out in 3-5 years if they are any good.
Virginia, keep trying. You truly are misinformed about educating children. Why don’t you teach a class in your local public school for a week and let me know how it goes?
You don’t need any training. I am sure you will be a great teacher the minute you start.
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Diane, try 35+ kids in an inner city elementary school in Detroit.
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My husband has an MBA from Wharton. If he were put in a class with with 28 students, they would eat him alive. He’s a pushover. I always had to be “bad cop” with our own children. If he’s needed to crunch numbers, he’s your guy.
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Sorry to be blunt, Diane, but I must call BS on “Virginia”.
Judging from what Virginia writes about grad students (re funding, TAs, etc.), I do not believe s/he has had actual experience as a graduate student or post-doc, and certainly not at a top research university.
The vast majority of Ph.D.-level grad students and post-docs have zero interest in teaching K-12; these individuals are training for research careers, ideally in higher ed. Furthermore, the STEM graduate programs at universities (from the top-tier programs on down) are increasingly filled with with students and post-docs who are foreign nationals. This is especially true of engineering fields.
[sarcasm]
Oh yeah, by all means, let’s recruit these individuals to fill the gaps when qualified, experienced K-12 teachers are driven from their jobs by politics and VAM! That’ll fix the problem!
[/sarcasm]
~ Sharon in NYS, who in fact has Actual Knowledge these matters
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Now it’s anecdotes as evidence?
Stories of grad students and how hard they work, the hours they keep, the adults they’ve taught…how exactly do these stories relate to how a person teaches a third grade class. I even find it hard to connect it to my own 9th grade classroom, and I was a grad student in geology who taught labs to adult students as a TA. The adults I taught back then were very different from the 14 and 15 year olds I teach now, even though there is just a 4 or 5 year difference in age.
The issue has never been content knowledge, it is teaching ability, and your anecdotes simply do not prove your point that post-docs would be better K-12 teachers than those with experience.
And then you bring up the use of VAM, a wholly discredited statistical measure of teacher effectiveness. You must be a musician, a percussionist in particular – because you keep on beating the same drum over and over, and over and over, …
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Agreed. You’re comparing apples to oranges. There’s a huge difference between primary, secondary, post-secondary, and even professional schools and the instructional/management techniques within each.
Research VAM. Here’s a link to an article Diane blogged about awhile ago. http://www.amstat.org/policy/pdfs/asa_vam_statement.pdf
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Districts are canceling TFA contracts all over the US for a few reasons:
The amount of money the district spends on them (salary + contract dues + inservice) ends up costing the district more than what they could get if they just hired from the traditional pool of candidates.
Because the research on TFA is an assortment of goods and bads, paying more for a TFA recruit is not a sound fiscal expense for a district.
Ultimately, when a TFA teacher leaves teaching or the district, after two years (or worse, before the two years are up) the district ends up losing even more because of contract dues and teacher inservice investment. It is estimated that 10% leave before or after their first year alone. This means that districts are paying for teachers that are not even teaching any more.
Because of TFA contract dues, most large districts have learned that they could hire one or two more teachers if they hired from the traditional pool.
Districts have realized that the cycle of revolving teachers is worse with TFA than it is with from the traditional pool of candidates; therefore, TFA is credited with feeding the cycle of inequality in poor, urban districts. This means that TFA is not a solution but part of the problem. And when a district contracts with TFA, they are the problem, too.
TFA may have been a reasonable solution at one time, a way of temporarily filling in the gaps, but it is clear that it is not a solution now. TFA sounded reasonable more than a decade ago. But now even a sizable chunk of its alumni are dishing the hate on TFA.
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A TFA friend of mine told me the drop out rate for TFAs is much higher than 10% before and after that first year of teaching. That published data is very skewed. I wish I remembered everything she said, I’d lost it here. The point is, it’s an even bigger problem than thought!
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Districts looking to save $ should realize that it is seems too good to be true, it is probably scam. That is why I rarely answer my phone to unknown numbers. Once you hit a certain, you’re on the shark list. TFA is not saving money or improving long term outcomes for students. It’s a gimmick. I could have told them that.
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Virginia,
I’m not sure of your overuse of STEM. My non-STEM parents helped me with division when I was in grade school, until Algebra (my mom was upset that letters were mixed with numbers).
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and while having a STEM degree has merit, it doesn’t imply these folks will be better teachers than non-STEM degree teachers. I was a teacher. I am now an engineer. I’ve seen good and bad teachers, both with either STEM or non-STEM. My problem is that you’re downplaying others’ backgrounds. It would be nice for you to be open to the idea that if someone doesn’t have a STEM degree, they may actually be a good teacher (and I’ve met plenty).
There’s a lot more going on in a classroom than is when someone is sitting in front of the computer watching Khan. And honestly, many of my students I taught couldn’t stand Khan because he couldn’t simplify material enough for them, didn’t explain it in terms they could understand, and didnt like how unorganized some of his lessons were. He couldn’t hear their thought process and correct it. Khan has a STEM degree. I have a STEM degree. I could reach my students. Khan, he couldn’t. And didn’t.
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I see ECONOMAD is back on the ship.
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Virginiasgp could not teach a dog to bark if his life depended on it . . . .
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Robert
He doesn’t have to teach a dog to bark, so I suppose the luck o’ the Irish (Setter) is with him
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Arff . . . . .
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Sharon in NYS: remember that you are dealing with an individual that can read the following—
“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.”—
But doesn’t realize that Mark Twain wasn’t encouraging the kind of self-proclaimed & delusional success that comes of ignorance and confidence, but poking fun at those that think and act that way.
Perhaps a little too much CC ‘closet reading’ and a lack of spare flashlight batteries when the lights go out (as they frequently do on RheeWorld) do not a critical thinker make…
😎
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Or…
Districts could reach out to the thousands of experienced educators who lost their jobs during the Bush recession. These educators collectively have hundreds of years of experience in all areas of education, not just the STEM subjects, and as a STEM educator myself I can authoritatively state that we need well-rounded students, students who take art and music and classes in the humanities.
We do not need drones who know math and science and little else. How will they be able to function as adults if they know little of the arts, philosophy, and the humanities?
Yeah, let’s go for experience instead of inexperience. Let’s go for educators who have chosen a lifelong career instead of temps who have little investment In their schools and the communities they are located in. We need educators who want to stay around for years, decades even, to help provide the stability that only comes from a staff with experience and dedication to their craft.
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Nailed it! When raising kids, stability and consistency is key. What’s missing from many of our schools, especially our urban and rural schools? Stability and consistency! And we all know it takes quite a few years to get a good feel for teaching, where you feel like you can actually “float”. And then starts the improvement process.
When we have this revolving door of teachers and administrators, we are asking for trouble.
The same goes for engineering. When new hires are hired, much of knowledge is gained from folks who “know the business”. What happens if there’s a revolving door, as bad as teaching, in these technical fields? I bet our technology, cars, etc. wouldn’t be ask great as they are.
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I’m sure this comment will get lost in the shuffle, but I have to laugh at the notion that Ph.D’s are the solution to lower ED. First off, if you believe PhD’s are into their field of research for money, you don’t know Ph.D’s. They have IMMENSE interest in the field. Do you really believe that someone with a PhD in Physics will be elated to teach rudimentary physics to gen ed students, the majority of whom will not care at the PhD level? They want to continuously learn and contribute to the subject with their research and hypotheses. They don’t want to tell a kid to be quiet and do their work on basic physics. If you believe that is wrong, do you honestly believe that First Grade teachers are thrilled with teaching, “1+1=2, 1+2=3, 2+1=2, etc). Or that they are driven to goosebumps with “See Spot. See Spot run. Spot ran”. I would question the mental stability of such an adult. Teacher’s love CHILDREN. They do it so that they can make sure kids do a good job. My Dad is a great case in point. He is the MASTER of his domain in mathematics. He has a PhD. He studied at Renesselaer Polytechnic Institute. He has had astounding success in the private sector with his own business that he Co-founded with algorithms he wrote and continues to write. Point is, his credentials are preciously what you desire and then some. After he graduated with his undergrad, he taught high school and he taught teachers. He hated it. He quit the next year to pursue his PhD. Experts love material, teachers love children. Pretty difficult to do both.
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I would love to see one of these desk-jockeys manage/nurture and simultaneously teach a classroom full of low SES students with a vast range of ability to attend to task and perform at a level that makes it possible for the entire group to stay on task. A pocket protector will save a shirt-maybe, but not your soul). Of course, some of those young TFA-ers might get in a couple of years of snapping, marching and mouth-taping children (your kids, not mine)with some statistically positive but emotionally negative results…but they will be whisked off to another field: an office somewhere, maybe a more public, grant-funded, spokesperson type if they happen to sleep with someone rich and powerful. The STEM folks make great tangential visitors to a classroom, but I prefer to focus on the SOIL and the ROOTS of our society, which are being eroded by those more comfortable with numbers than humans, and sum total calculations vs morality and society….oh, and children.
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whoever you are virginiasgp you are a fool
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You would think that even a non educator would have the common sense to know that test scores, while providing valuable information to instructors, are not given more validity in employment decisions by simply increasing their impact on the decision.
Common sense (to me, anyways), especially with the continued concerns regarding quality and transparency in the creation/scoring process; the recent decision to drop one company and trade for another starting next year (with no real information on what sort of testing procedure educators are being involuntarily committed to)…
What do we do? Cuomo claims no responsibility, even though that is clearly false. Legislators claim no responsibility, the regents have responsibility but don’t take responsibility and do the right thing for anyone but the governor, testing corporations and privatiz-ers who can engineer enrollments and impressive data.
So now what?
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I’m inspired by this idea:
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
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I agree, but It needs to be targeted. “Opt out” gets attention, and serves as individual expression en-masse, but if the regents are just little fish swimming with the entire school, and legislators shamefully describe the governor holding them and the budget hostage…where do we begin the “throwing off”. Even a more powerful opt-out will only cause a more crafty circling of the wagons and strategizing.
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Dmax,
Suppose they gave a test and no one took it?
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I agree. But I think that things are not bad enough yet for big changes to occur quickly. Many teachers will have to lose their jobs before more serious action can be taken. Writing elected officials helps, but at some point, actions will have to speak louder. Opt-out is just a start.
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Opt out is the only way parents and students get any voice
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Diane,
What if they sent a test and no one GAVE it?
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Mamie.
Sorry, but teachers are under the jurisdiction of the LEAs and the state, and it will only backfire against them if they do not give tests en masse.
But private citizens advocating for their children will be the only ones to turn this around. That’s why for the longest time I have been saying that one of the biggest weaknesses of our already corrupt and decayed unions is that they don’t go out and solicit parents; they don’t enfranchise them and galvanize them for the most part. Parents are on their own, but fortunately, they seem do be doing an effective job of protesting, demonstrating, and advocating.
If teachers and their unions were to really go against this reform movement, they would have done what European unions would have done in heartbeat: they would have struck big time. But an anti-union climate in the USA renders striking equivalent to grand larceny.
We have a long way to go in regaining our civil, human, labor, and fiscal rights in the USA, but I feel we are by no means without real hope, as long as we are all willing to do a lot of heavy lifting for a very long time.
Opt out should NEVER have to be the voice of parents, but unfortunately, when they get ignored, it becomes their only option. By the same token, if a system were fair and empirical and equitable, Opt-out would never be taken as an option, and in that case, I make a case for the importance of testing.
It’s too bad that testing and Common Core are excellent and useful concepts that have been bastardized and skewered in their utility and significance. We have reformers with no educational experience to thank for that. We also have a child poverty rate to thank as well . . . .
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Litigate against the weapon – the test.
Take the testing company to court. Let them defend that their test measure teacher effectiveness. Let them defend that VAM is an effective measure to use with their tests to measure teacher effectiveness.
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Honestly, someone with a STEM degree should especially see the issues with our big data schemes in education. These graduates should have a lot of mathematics/statistics coursework. Theoretically, they should understand the falsities of the current uses of data at a much deeper level.
Also, being an engineer with tons of experience and high degrees, let alone the amount of work out in, doesn’t mean you’ll be a good teacher. It doesn’t mean you’ll be a bad one.
I agree with Diane. Teach in the classroom for one week. I know many engineers who would last a matter of hours. BTW: I am an engineer and a former teacher. I was a good teacher, but left because of the decline in education, push for testing, and decreasing salaries and benefits. I also have a STEM degree. I studied longer than all of my friends pursuing other degrees. My degree didn’t make me a better teacher, nor did it prepare me better for teaching HIGH SCHOOL math (because high school math are the basics for any STEM degree). It gave me perspective and taught me hard work, which my high school did not.
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Oh, and 80% of the new teachers I know make less than 40k annually. We aren’t adding pension and other benefits. Let’s compare salary vs. salary first. I know post docs who have better health insurance than teachers. It’s all relative.
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Where will Cuomo find better teachers to replace those who are fired? If teaching to the test is the goal (and it clearly IS the goal of the Regents and Mr. Cuomo) they might look to hire computer programmers and security guards. Programmers know how to develop algorithms for tasks that are iterative and standardized: they can write the programs for the inexpensive computer tablets that will be issued to each child. Security guards can maintain order and arrest creative students who make things at home— like the young man in Texas who made his own clock. With this combination NYS won’t need as many old-fashioned “teachers”— you know, the kind that get to know each child and design differentiated lessons that meet their needs.
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Cuomo does not want to see the schools succeed. His plan is designed with an unrealistic one year turn around for schools with poor test scores that is a likely ticket to “failure.” Then he’ll be able to deliver schools to his hedge fund handlers.
This absurd evaluation plan will put many good teachers on the firing line due to a bogus formula and outside interlopers with an agenda. The state will be thrilled to be able to reduce its pension and healthcare burden to its mostly female workforce.
The AFT should hang its head in shame as they got ” a seat at the table” for selling out its members. It’s too bad the seat was an electric chair.
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The new systems who make teacher responsible for things outside their locus of control are beyond belief to me. As a special education teacher who is evaluated by the Dr. Marzano evaluation tool where 100% of the students have to show the desired effects of one’s efforts I’m angry. I work with the lowest one percent and on any given day due to medical issues, medication, and more, there may even be a student who is even asleep in class. Because all children are entitled to an education even students with nurses attend my school. When an administrator observes and sees a student not engaged in learning for reasons beyond my control my score can’t be innovative no matter what I do. As a Florida judge says, it’s not fair but it’s the law. Welcome to the new norm.
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Elia plans to shorten the Common Core tests so more parents will be enticed to let their children take them.
http://wnyt.com/article/stories/S3908395.shtml?cat=300
Has she not heard Governor Cuomo say they are MEANINGLESS?
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Once the pink slips start coming, over test scores, things will change.
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Ed reformers should be very happy with the media coverage of these test scores:
“In a troubling picture of performance, the vast majority of Illinois students failed to reach the high academic bar on the new state PARCC exams, meaning they weren’t on track academically for the next grade level, let alone for college or careers.”
Remember how we were assured repeatedly that these scores wouldn’t be used for fear-mongering or pushing the ed reform political agenda?
What a lie that was.
I eagerly await the next round of incoherent, ill-considered, gimmicky, chaotic “reforms” that will be pushed thru and piled one atop another by using these test scores to “create a sense of urgency”.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-parcc-results-met-20150916-story.html
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I’d like to see a comparison between what they have spent on these tests and ranking teachers with the test scores and what they have spent on supporting the actual Common Core standards in public schools. My public school, for example, has less funding with Common Core than it had prior to Common Core.
A budget is really a list of ranked priorities. If most of the Common Core budget is going to Common Core testing and various teacher ranking schemes, then that’s the priority and it doesn’t matter what any of them claim.
My sense is the “accountability hawk” faction of this “movement” have all the political power and the rest is just feel-good window dressing that never gets funded or done.
Any indication this time will be different, or is it NCLB all over again?
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What a joke. It’s so obvious that Meryl Tisch is just another corporate stooge who hails from the upper circles of the NYC elite (their family affiliated with corporate interests such as CBS, Loew’s) and is totally clueless on what real life entails, let alone education. It’s totally obvious that this is a radical attempt to purge veteran (read: “expensive”) teachers from the system, make it look dysfunctional so more public schools enter into receivership for a private company to takeover, privatize and profit from it.
Tisch is not an idiot. She and the others on this board who voted for this know exactly what they’re doing, and a big thanks to the 6 regents that see through it all and voted against it. Yet the 10 that voted for it are complicit in destroying one of the last vestiges of democracy. Simply put, this is another example of the Elites diminishing all forms of power–financial, social and political–of the Demos, to put it in Sheldon Wolin’s words. A powerless public and compliant political/middle management class are all they needs, more proof that plutocratic bureaucratism in the name of Business runs this country. The people–students, parents, and teachers–be damned.
We are not a democracy. We are, simply put, a laughingstock.
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“A Death worse than fate”
The Regency of Tisch
You really wouldn’t wish
On even those you hate
A death that’s worse than fate
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The question is not only where will they find better teachers, but more importantly, how will they, how can they possibly know in advance that they are better? If they are all new teachers, they will have no VAM scores. If they are part of the nationwide churn, any VAM scores they have will not be comparable since they may not come from the same VAM or the same tests, and if they have good scores they won’t be looking for work in the first place, but oh I forgot, no teacher can consistently get good scores year after year because VAM has all the accuracy and validity of a coin toss.
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They will not find better teachers as the requirements for teachers in New York are some of the highest in the nation. NYS teachers are required to get a master’s degree. The standards are about to get a whole lot lower.
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Now I got it. Tisch and NY Regents want to see NY education fall flat on their face. Who cares the VAMpire state drops the rank to the bottom 10 of the nation?
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Ken,
That is the point of corporate reform: make public education look bad, demoralize teachers, busy the unions, privatize.
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Well, the fix has been in from the beginning. Privatization is well on the way. With a test designed to fail 70% of the students at the level I teach, I wonder if I’ll have a job in a few years. After 16 years of service working with some of the most vulnerable communities in New York, struggling much of that time to afford a 350 square foot tenant building apartment, I may very well be rewarded by being shown the door based upon a secret unscientific mathematical formula that, to the degree it reflects anything, reflects only poverty. You’re welcome NY.
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I tell the young teachers I know to have a backup plan!
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Crazy thing is that 80% of my friends who became teachers are looking to quit. It makes me frustrated, but these folks need to make a living.
My friends who have STEM degrees who quit are all now engineers. We all miss teaching, but just can’t do it at this point. Thanks, America. You’re forcing out people who are great teachers and actually want to teach.
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A terrific bit of news from the SED commissioner and the Regents: starting this year, in direct response to parent and teacher feedback, the NYSED grade 3-8 tests will be made shorter and every single test question (minus field questions, of course) will be released to the public after the exams are administered: http://www.pressconnects.com/story/news/local/new-york/2015/09/16/state-exams-get-shorter-elia-says/32522147/. Voices were heard and changes were made.
Of course this won’t satisfy those who have captured the opt-out movement and who want all tests and evaluations eliminated, period. Fortunately, most of the voters and taxpayers of New York don’t accept the argument that the only people who are qualified to judge whether a school is doing well are the very same people who work inside its walls. They see the potential for bias and conflicts of interest, and they’d prefer to have checks and balances on the whole arrangement—just better, fairer checks and balances.
Legislators fairly and openly elected by the people of the state of New York wrote its education laws and created a framework where legislators elect the Regents and the Regents appoint a state ed commisioner. Legislators can undo that system and provide for either directly elected Regents or a directly elected state ed commissioner. I would strongly support any movement or legislators who returned more power to the voters and direct accountability for state officials.
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The Opt out movement is not only about standardized testing; it is also about the misuse of the results of testing. Testing has been part of New York education for years, and it was the only state that had Regents exams. In order to qualify for federal funds, standardized tests have been given for many years along with other NYS tests in content areas. However, there was never any attempt to establish a causative link to teacher evaluation, a notion that is insubstantiated in research. Parents should still continue to opt out because the governor’s plan will destabilize public schools, and this will cause undue hardship on schools and families.
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Sorry: unsubstantiated.
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The Opt Out arguments are definitely elastic enough to accommodate any attempts at appeasement by NYSED. If you cut the number of questions and allow students the same amount of time to take the tests, then the tests are still seven to eight hours over six days, i.e., too long. If you make the tests shorter in duration but don’t reduce the number of questions, then the tests put even more pressure on students to finish in the allotted time. If you make the tests shorter in duration *and* reduce the number of questions, then you haven’t addressed the problem of students not having enough time to finish. If you cut the tests down to two hours total over one or two days — well, a lot of parents might like that, but I suspect we would be hearing the argument that the tests were too *short* to be a reliable measurement of learning for purposes of teacher evaluations.
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I suspect a shorter version of this testing travesty would still yield plenty of heads rolling if the tests continue to be on a frustration level and poverty remains a tough nut to crunch, especially if you under fund the poorest schools.
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Sorry, Tim… this ISN’T good news! In addressing the concerns about tests, Ms. Elia seems to have come up with solutions that will ultimately alienate everyone. She’s recommended trimming back on the length of the tests– which will arguably make their VAM applications less valid. She’s switched vendors from Pearson to Questar, a company that will devise a completely new set of tests— further diminishing the validity of VAM measurements. SO… VAM, which is already statistically invalid according to the majority of statisticians, will be even LESS valid. In taking these actions, Ms. Elia has completely sidestepped the real concern of parents, which is the effects of test-based accountability on the curriculum in their schools. To quote Loy Gross, a co-founder of the parent activist group United to Counter the Core,”half a disaster is still a disaster”…. or to quote Bernie Sanders: “Enough is enough”.
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“those who have captured the opt-out movement”
Do you have any idea who they are?
Are they holding the opt-outers in a remote location? (somewhere in southern Utah?)
What are their demands for releasing the opt-outers?
Are they asking for ransom?
Do you have any suggestions for a rescue operation?
Thanks in advance.
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“a : an act of catching, winning, or gaining control by force, stratagem, or guile ”
The commenter Chiara has helped to popularize this usage. I like it.
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Tim,
Most of it was a joke but it does have a serious basis:
Who is it that has caught , won, or gained control by force, stratagem, or guile in this case?
Do you have names?
What is your basis for claiming that the movement has been “captured”?
For that matter, what precisely is it that they have “captured”?
I was under the impression that opt out was a very loose conglomeration of parents who have decided to opt their kids out of tests for one reason or other.
I did not realize they could be “captured” — and told what to do at gunpoint? (oops, there I go again)
You need to provide evidence if you are going to make claims like “this won’t satisfy those who have captured the opt-out movement and who want all tests and evaluations eliminated, period.”
So, where is your evidence?
Thanks in advance.
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I’ve posted several times about this, but for you, I’ll recap.
The opt-out movement in New York State barely registered — even though there had been interminable test prep, long exams with poorly conceived “gotcha” questions, and two cut-score recalibrations that caused massive numbers of students and schools to “fail” — until after it was announced that scores would count toward teacher evaluations.
It was at that point that superintendents, principals, teachers, and ed school professors began to actively encourage and support opting out, as did the NYC local and statewide teachers unions at March 2015 rallies and via robocalls. And the message of the opt-out groups changed from “make the tests better and use them for good” to “get rid of tests entirely.”
The reaction by the various opt-out groups to this (unequivocally good) news about the tests demonstrates clearly what their goals are. I support the right of individual families to opt out of the tests, to opt out of a particular teacher’s classroom, and to opt out of the public school they are assigned to because of their street address. But they should be aware of the larger implications here
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SDP,
Why should Tim ever provide evidence of anything he says? It is his prerogative to pontificate and blah-blah-blah us all to death. Why censor him?
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Tim
That scores would count toward teacher evaluations was announced several years ago — long before the recent (2015 or even 2014) surge in opt out.
And even if the announcement actually did make a difference in the numbers opting out (and you still have not provided any actual evidence — just a bunch of unsubstantiated claims), so what?
Parents can opt out for any reason that they choose. If they choose to do it partly (or even wholly) because they do not wish to be part of a system that unfairly rates their child’s teacher, then that is their prerogative.
To suggest that they could only have adopted such a position after being “convinced” by superintendents, teachers and their unions is ridiculous.
It assumes the parents are all idiots with no clue about what is going on in the schools — bowing and bending to the will of the teacher’s unions like so much wheat in the wind.
If you want to believe that based on a NY Times editorial opinion, fine.
But I want to see actual evidence. Your claims fall (laughably) far below that standard.
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APPR was adopted in 2012 but it wasn’t until March-April 2014 that it was amended so that test scores could comprise as much as 50% of a teacher’s overall rating.
The numbers and the time line are clear. After the revision, the people who perceived their jobs were threatened took a much more active role in opting out, disseminating their message through PTAs (https://goo.gl/Ts1Phl) and social/traditional media. If you believe that people trust and like their kids’ teachers and school leaders, it is ridiculous to suggest that this wouldn’t influence parents.
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Link shortener did not work AT ALL. Here is the full link in all its glory: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxob2hwdHNhfGd4OjJjNjcwZTdiNTQ4ZTBhOWE
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“APPR was adopted in 2012 but it wasn’t until March-April 2014 that it was amended so that test scores could comprise as much as 50% of a teacher’s overall rating.
That’s called moving the goalpost.
Here’s what you said above
“The opt-out movement in New York State barely registered…until after it was announced that scores would count toward teacher evaluations. ”
And actually, scores counted for 20% until the latest Regents decision (just this week) made the new system operational.
Your argument is getting more laughable with each additional post.
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In Utah, the way the state “trimmed the length of the test” was to move the writing portion of the test, which takes about 3-5 hours all by itself, to February, leaving the rest of the ELA, math, and science testing in April/May. The test was just as long.
Parents caught onto that pretty quickly. The testing was all moved back to April/May. Still about 15 hours of testing per student, and now the computer labs and libraries aren’t available for the entirety of fourth term.
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“Legislators fairly and openly elected by the people of the state of New York wrote its education laws and created a framework where legislators elect the Regents and the Regents appoint a state ed commisioner.”
And because the Governor slammed it all into the budget process the education evaluation laws managed to avoid any meaningful bill writing and vetting process and faced a hard deadline.
The process was entirely corrupted by the Governor and by the legislators who went along because they were scared of not getting a budget in on time.
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It’s time for all educators to take an unpaid day and storm Albany. It will only be effective if the entire state is on board together.
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I doubt the state will care what teachers do. They may try to say this is not a legitimate use of a personal day and try to take action against them. If parents storm Albany, they actually have some clout that may cause the governor and legislative to reconsider the consequences of their actions.
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not personal…unpaid
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There are a lot of things teachers do that they don’t get paid for. What if all that suddenly went away? But most teachers seem to be altruistic and would be reticent to consider such a thing (perhaps until things get worse).
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I’m sure all ten who voted yes can be found in a bent over position, lips puckered, facing Cuomo’s arse. And what an arse he is. Shame on them. I don’t know how they sleep at night knowing the damage they are inflicting on students, families, schools, teachers, etc.
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As rockhound2 noted on another thread, VAMpires don’t sleep at night, but only during the day.
So I think that pretty much explains it.
“The VAMpire State”
The VAMpire State
Is really great
Cuz VAMpires run the ed
They love the VAMs
And other shams
And Night of Living Dead
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To Threatened Out West up there at 7:20 PM (I think). Just how hot does it get in Utah in May, & are your schools air conditioned? Also, we all know kids get antsy near the end of the year. I hope your tests are in April. (But I hope more that you get an opt out rate of 100%, or close to it!
Also, another comment on TFA–I know two people who stayed past two years. Yep. They stayed, & now one is an administrator, & the other is a “teacher” (in quotes because she’s training TFAs–therefore, not really training real teachers) trainer, which is considered a supervisory position.
Repeat–this is after TWO years of “teaching” in a classroom.
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Diane-
First, thank you for all you have done and continue to do to fight the good fight for teachers and Students ! Like many teachers, I’m disheartened and furious about this awful news. What do you think is the most effective way for teachers to protest the Regents vote to base our ratings on 50% of these ridiculous tests ?
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Diane – First, Thanks so much for all the work you do fighting the good fight! I’m disheartened and furious about the regents latest vote to make ridicuous state eXams count for 50% of teachers evaluations. As a NYC teacher in the DOE What do you think is the most effective way to voice opposition to this ?Many of my teacher friends are so discouraged and feel so disempowered. What can we do that would be constructive?
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crossposted article itself at
http://www.opednews.com/Quicklink/After-debate-Regents-pass-in-Best_Web_OpEds-Challenge_Cuomo_Debate_Educational-Crisis-150921-429.html
with this comment which has embedded links at the site.
In 1998 I was at the top of my career, evaluated by Pew’s research teams out of Harvard & the Univ of Pittsburgh, when I was the cohort for the National Standards. My work was selected from 20,000 observations of classroom practice, as one of six top practitioners that met the Principles of Leaning in a unique way. I was a celebrated educator an my students were at the top of all tests, but I was harassed out, anyway… Just didn’t know why…
NOW, I do “get it!”… we genuine educators had to be made to leave so the schools would fail, and could be privatized…
BUT IT IS SIXTEEN YEARS LATER,AND THIS CHARLATAN OF A GOVERNOR is foisting the same egregious deprivation of civil rightson the Americans WHO JUST HAPPEN TO HAVE CHOSEN TEACHING… if this goes on… WHO WILL WANT TO TEACH OUR FUTRE CITIZENS???
Learning not Teacher evaluation should be the emphasis of media and then maybe snake-oil salesmen like Cuomo would not get away with this destruction of our profession.
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