The New York Times posted five questions that were on the eighth-grade math test in New York. The State Education Department did not release all the test questions. It chose the ones it released to the public.
Only 22% of eighth-graders received a “passing mark” (aligned with NAEP proficient, a passing mark that is beyond the capacity of a majority of students).
Take the test. How did you do? How do you think the Governor and our legislators would do? Don’t you think they should take the tests they expect all middle-schoolers to pass?
Diane Ravitch's blog 
Answers are not too difficult but the question becomes tedious and boring. A healthy 8th grader probably does not have the patience to deal well with this kind of malarkey.
Do we know how many minutes the students have to work through the whole test and how many questions in addition to these are on the test? in other word, these questions are not fully representaatve of the conditions of test taking. The patience, boredom, tedium, malarky hazards are not fully represented.
Students think differently than the rigid expectations of test makers:
1. Do they mean ($22 + $2) or $22 per mile?
2. Is that a z-axis?
3. Seems ok, thought “could” implies all answers are optional.
4. Straight forward memorization of volume formula. Not much “critical thinking” and “rigor” there.
5. “Above ground swimming pool”? How about “volume of my yacht’s gas tank”?
They need to release ALL questions.
Er… ($20+$2)
Agreed….these don’t look anything like the few questions I have seen by walking around monitoring students, even given that I’m at high school level.
The first question had me wondering.
The second had me questioning
The third one “could” make sense with a different word than “could”.
The fourth one is better worded: “What is the volume of the cone to the nearest tenth of a cubic inch?” Why so convoluted (to an 8th grader) of a question?
Again, as in the fourth one, the question needn’t be so convoluted: “If the pool is filled with water to 6 inches from the top of the pool, what is the volume of the water in the pool to the nearest cubic foot?
Mental mathturbation anyone????
Who comes up with this crap, anyway????
It takes a math teacher to spot the poor wording and labeling. Thank you, MathVale. After years as a substitute and then a special ed teacher at the middle school level, I answered 4 out of the five the way the test intended, which is not a recommendation of the test but an indication of how long it has been since I was teaching math. Woe is me, I could not remember the formula for the volume of a cone. (They used to give out a formula card for our state tests.)
They give it out for this test, too.
Yes. There is SO much noise in these tests, they should only be interpreted by an actual live teacher before any conclusions are drawn. I do not mind tests as a diagnostic tool. But these standardized tests are so flawed, they are unusable. I can get more information in a 1/2 hour one on one with a student.
I have learned from excellent mentors and admins. I know exactly what is likely to trip a student up and keep in my toolbox approaches other teachers taught me and I discovered. I know when a student will incorrectly make positive the last term of a conjugate and explain WHY it is negative. I anticipate a student incorrectly canceling terms verses factors when simplifying rational functions. I see it coming when they use radius instead of diameter. On and on. I learn something new everyday from better teachers than I. I may have more grey hairs, but exceptional teachers like my mentors are all shapes, sizes, ages, and personality. A VAM test does not capture that excellence.
But my God! This test and punish insanity is destroying all that. Excellent teachers are retiring. Others are disgusted and we all just do test prep. We spend more time pouring over pre/post test deltas than preparing new content. Wake up, America! You are ruining your most precious resource – the future generation.
MathVale,
I certainly agree that meeting with a student one on one for a half hour can allow a person to tell how much mathematics or economics a student knows.
How many students are there in your state and how much time are you willing to spend with them? What would you want to be paid to do these interviews?
If one has a formula card, does this become a reading and calculation test? One eighth grade teacher I knew made sure everyone could multiply as there was nothing wrong with their reading comprehension. That brought his math scores up.
“If one has a formula card, does this become a reading and calculation test? ”
If you are writing a test to see if someone has memorized assorted formulas, then it can become less than a test of mathematical understanding. However, there are lots of way to require a student to use a formula that requires s/he to understand what s/he is doing.
I have been teaching or working in mathematics for over 20 years and these are questions an 8th grader should be able to answer. Skills without application aren’t sufficient for career or college readiness…students need to be able to reason and apply mathematics. Check out Texas STAAR problems, the questions are similar.
I agree, Jane.
They may be able to answer similar questions if the questions were worded in a more straight forward fashion.
When one knows the subject area as yourself, a teacher of math, then the questions and answers are quite obvious. But without that expertise the questions are, well, questionable.
I’ve seen the same problem with questions on Spanish tests where depending upon interpretation one might answer the question a couple of different ways. What is obvious to a teacher is not obvious to the student.
Confession: as a student in high school, I took math through trigonometry. I scored a 640 on the SAT math. I took a course in statistics. I answered two of the five questions correctly. My math , especially algebra and geometry, is rusty as I don’t use them much
And I studied through calculus in high school and don’t think I ever scored under the 90th percentile in whatever standardized math test I took. And when I got the score (not results as we were never given the option to see the actual scoring of the test) I used to think back on which ones I might have gotten wrong and it usually came down to questions that were ambiguous as some of these five examples. Not that I obsessed over it because after the few moments of reflection I’d be doing something different. I hope students would only give a passing reflection on these tests and focus on other things to do but unfortunately society these days gives way to much credence and importance to these asinine tests.
Jane. I’ve been at it for a while, too.
They are reasonable questions. A couple of them are on the tough side for 8th grade, and the diagram could be labeled more clearly, but they are good.
Agreed. I don’t find the questions ambiguous either. For the most part, they are straightforward. Wording may be weird for some (as in the questions could be simplified a little bit more), but our textbooks word things this way anyway.
These questions are “basic level” questions that are fairly standard in middle school curriculum. The question we should be asking is, “why are only 22% of kids passing this test with basic problems they should be learning in schools?”.
There are many variables. In my experience working in inner city schools and Michigan’s EAA, I find the following (I’m generalizing to the inner city schools I’ve worked for and with and it is implied that this list is not exhaustive of the realities):
1. Students aren’t prepared for middle school math when they enter after elementary, so many teachers teach the kids “at their level”. The problem? The kids are still behind and aren’t learning this material.
2. Teachers don’t know the mathematics. I have witnessed this first hand. It was amazing.
3. Students don’t have a supportive, academic focused environment at home (or even in school), perhaps lack study skills, etc.. Schools, parents, and teachers need to work together to create these environments so students gain the most from their education.
4. Administration require teachers to only drill a certain set of standards. This is limiting because students aren’t exposed to the mathematics they need to be exposed to to even develop “proficiency” in answering even these basic level questions.
5. Students are passed, even with little to no knowledge of the material that should have been learned. This is an issue in and of itself, but needed to be stated.
There is much more to the issue than the test. I’m not saying the test is well designed, a good measure, or is even appropriate to give to 12 and 13 year old kids. I’m not saying our politicians could answer the questions. What is true about the test is that the questions are “basic level” and is on material in middle school math standards.
1. Students aren’t prepared for middle school math when they enter after elementary, so many teachers teach the kids “at their level”. The problem? The kids are still behind and aren’t learning this material.
We can go all the way down to the first grade level and you will hear teachers saying the same thing. If a
child in first grade does not yet understand one-to-one correspondence and numbers to twenty, should
teachers skip over those prerequisite skills and teach a first grade curriculum to the children who are not
yet ready? Learning math is a building process. Common sense would demand that we spend extra
time working with children, at their level of understanding, in order to help them understand and
continue to make progress. With small group and remedial support, a majority of children can make
adequate progress. But, small group instruction and remediation costs money. If communities are not
willing to pay the costs, the services will not be provided.
2. Teachers don’t know the mathematics. I have witnessed this first hand. It was amazing.
There may be some truth here for some teachers, but as a generalization, it is an inadequate
explanation for why only 22% of our students pass the standardized testing.
3. Students don’t have a supportive, academic focused environment at home (or even in school), perhaps lack study skills, etc.. Schools, parents, and teachers need to work together to create these environments so students gain the most from their education.
For as long as I have been in education, 30+ years, this has been the lament. Do you have any ideas
about building these better support systems for all children?
4. Administration require teachers to only drill a certain set of standards. This is limiting because students aren’t exposed to the mathematics they need to be exposed to to even develop “proficiency” in answering even these basic level questions.
????????? Are you talking about time and resources again? Then lets talk about funding.
5. Students are passed, even with little to no knowledge of the material that should have been learned. This is an issue in and of itself, but needed to be stated.
… yes a very complex issue. In fact it is the elephant in the room that no one ever really wants to look
at.
My list wasn’t exhaustive and certainly not all-encompassing. I appreciate you expounding upon some of my reasons above! I’m sure we all agree with them too!
If we all look a little deeper, we see even more reasons for the 22-percent pass rate! Lack of resources, funding, properly structures school systems to meet the needs of struggling learners and kearners who are behind.
LOL. Dang smartphone sent my previous message with misspellings. Apologies!
Point is, there are many reasons our students are underperforming: parents, teachers, schools, resources, funding, etc., etc..
I hope our new leaders and folks like Rhee see the 22-percent as a failure of the system. It’s not necessarily the teachers and students. There are too many variables in far too many schools to determine a “one size fits all” solution.
Thanks for commenting! 😀
Students have no scaffold on which to incorporate the ideas within these questions. I developed a concept for fractions cooking and baking from recipes and sewing using patterns. My students in middle school had no experiences on which to get a “feel” for these measurements. I brought in a rice box, measuring cups, and measuring spoons. (Caution: have an aid or volunteer work one-on-one with this. Otherwise, rice winds up on the floor.) In one class we made tape measures because the students read the ruler from right to left as well as left to right. They also needed to see the relationship of inch to feet to yard. We made cones on which we inscribed degrees in grade seven to see the difference between degree and inch and to see what a degree looked like at the base and at the top.
We forget that memorizing a list of steps in an abstract concept is difficult, if not impossible. I am surprised 22% could do it. Then we ask them to relate these steps in a unique situation. Even with test-taking instruction looking for key words in order to find the basic task in a word problem, students will not be successful unless they have photographic memories.
In California, the pool question could be relevant. Many kids have that experience and may have a parent who works for a pool company. I am not so sure in NYC. But few cook and sew and build. And we do not have these classes where they would use these skills.
Consequently, there is no gut understanding.
You’re a former teacher and can’t answer your own question with the most obvious answer??
Because the test purchaser told the test maker to set the cut points at an arbitrarily high point. That’s the only answer you need to know. When the test purchaser wants the test to show that 90% of the students “passed” (no not gas which was probably what they were doing during the test, they are 8th graders) are “proficient”, are “A” students then the cut score will be set to produce that result.
Mental mathturbation is a well known (at least for those “in the know”) sub-species of mental masturbation.
Were you able to see how the cut score was produced? Is it really “that high”?
I think these are questions that should be considered, too!
To answer your questions: No, Yes. Questions considered!
Considering that those who paid for the test said ahead of time that something around 70% wouldn’t “pass” or be “proficient” and that the cut scores weren’t set until after the tests were graded (scored) well. . .
. . .if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and swims like a duck then one is wise to conclude it is a duck, unless there is a ventriloquist goose around.
Either that or I’ve got some great ocean front property for sale cheaply over at Lake of the Ozarks in Central Missouri for ya! Call now, they’re selling fast!
I agree with many of your points.
1. I’ve got 11th graders struggling with fractions.
2. As far as teachers not knowing mathematics, that may be changing. Our universities are requiring either a math degree or the equivalent. That includes analysis, proofs, etc. – more theory beyond computation. The question will be whether America wants to fairly compensate for that level of skill and training. A math teacher with analytical skills and computer training clearing $25,000 at a charter could opt for an industry job making much more. Sadly, the trend is towards cheaper teachers.
3. Yes, if I hear another parent say “I hate math….”. Right now, a teacher with a roster of 100-150 kids is forced to concentrate on test prep and VAM. By 8th grade, study skills are not part of the standards. Teachers must focus on students who can return the highest sores with the least effort. A by-product of “reform”.
4. This requires trusting our math teachers. Not happening in today’s test and punish environment.
5. Not passing students is no longer an option. I do not think failing students to repeat a curriculum was ever useful.
I appreciate your reasoned feedback. Many people reading these questions are doing so through a personal filter. Schools and universities are staffed by people who have succeeded at schools and universities. I, myself, realize I have been conditioned to interpret questions a certain way. Plus these are only a few self-selected questions. We need full disclosure and transparency to encourage peer review. What is the state hiding?
I have no trouble with tests as diagnostic tools, requiring human interpretation and intervention. What bothers me is the blind allegiance to imperfect measures coupled with using tests as vindictive reprisals against teachers trying to educate America.
I have college students who struggle with fractions
If you want to pay highly qualified mathematics teachers more, they will need to be on a different salary scale than teachers of other subjects.
Amen, MathVale!
This is why I left education to become an engineer. My pay is over twice what I was making in education. I fought for my students to receive the education they needed; unfortunately, big data got the best of me.
MathVale, did you just say “teachers must focus on students who can return the highest scores with the least effort”? Do you claim to understand VAMs, reform or logic? Your statement implies teachers focus on students who can pass easily, or smart kids. But since teachers are currently being rates (and I believe schools will be rated) on growth, your statement is patently absurd.
Every student can show growth or not. A teacher must work to generate growth in every student or their value-added scores will be low. I don’t understand why someone who is supposedly versed in math and logic could confuse pass rates and value-added. I understand why education majors do so but not you.
Virginia, please,no more than four comments a day. You would fill up the entire ccomments section if I didn’t stop you.
“Plus these are only a few self-selected questions. We need full disclosure and transparency to encourage peer review. What is the state hiding?”
We really can’t judge the test without seeing the whole thing. These are pretty basic questions, but whether they are representative of the rest of the test is another matter. My special ed students would have struggled with them, but they were kids that fell behind well before middle school. Unfortunately, I think too much time over the years was devoted to memorizing algorithms when they fell behind rather than understanding the concepts.
If anyone wants to see the education system the corporate RheeFormers are not so stealthily creating, there is a documentary of five Chinese teachers who bring China’s style of teaching to a prestigious public school in the UK. The rigor, discipline and completion is fierce. Pay attention to class size and hours in class compared to the norm in the UK and even in the US.
One thing to remember is that in China, there are three major very high stakes tests. These tests are not used to fire teachers and close schools but they re used to rank students and then decide their fates—on the middle school, high school or college or off to a vocational school or back to the farm.
It also helps to know how many children in China never finish 6th grade, middle school or high school. The Chiense system is a system of attrition. You either make it or you don’t and it is all decided by the rigors and grit of harsh discipline and test scores.
I see no difference between the Chiense system and what the RheeFormers are doing. They are turning the U.S. into China. The only difference is that the new RheeForm system of education in the United States will be an autocratic, capitalist, for-profit system ruled over by CEOs and managers instead of a socialist one ruled over by the Chiense Communist Party members.
The British kids in this documentary remind me of many of the (about) 6,000 American children I taught over thirty years.
If the RheeFormers change the schools then they will change the culture from the ground up to be something drastically different than it is today.
1st, in China compulsory education only goes to 9th grade. To stay in school past 9th grade, the child has to earn test scores above the cut line to get a seat in a public high school, or the parents have to have the money to pay for a private high school and then college.
Enrollment in China’s high school is less than 50% of the total number of children in China who are of high school age. The rest have been tested out , thrown out or left on their own. China has about 200 million children who are of school age but less than 100 million will ever go to high school and even fewer will make the test’s cut score that will get them a seat in a Chinese public college.
This is the system the RheeFormers are building to replace the traditional educational system in the United States.
I have to agree with you. I see people saying things in comment sections in newspaper articles that have me scratching my head. Things like so what if some kids don’t make it in charters and get kicked out. They don’t belong there/deserve better. They should the best ones in one schools and the bad apples in another because they can’t learn/don’t want to learn. I am talking about elementary-aged children. Dismissed like so much garbage. This is not the way to think of our children. What right do we have to decide who is worthwhile? I can almost understand the lure to parents but it is a slippery slope when we start to decide who can and who can’t at such young ages and segregate them accordingly.
I was labeled as worthless until I joined the U.S. Marines at 19, fought in Vietnam and then decided at 23 that maybe college was a good idea and went through college on the GI Bill. In today’s world, I wonder if that option still exists once labeled as a loser by the RheeFormers gathering all of that data on children that will follow them through life—marked.
And it’s getting worse in China. The For PROFIT education is destroying education everywhere.
Heartache …. everywhere. Is this what an education is all about?
http://video.pbs.org/video/2306452188/
I’ve read that teachers in China are also speaking out about too much testing.
And on that note, I just walked home from the local theater where I saw “No Escape”. There’s a message in that title linked to one scene in the movie where Pierce Brosnan, with a British or Australian accent, explains what corporations are doing to turn everyone into their slaves—-and with what’s going on in the U.S. with the privatize and profitize everything movement, it rings soooo true. It causes your stomach, weighted down with dread, to sink.
And sounds like the New Orleans miracle. But there are no farms to stay on. Only streets.
Two random thoughts
1) The questions are reasonable taken individually. All together in a two hour exam, they may tax the endurance of struggling students who have to work very hard at solving them and may give up, even on easier ones that appear later in the test.
2) Keeping in mind that this test occurs probably months after the students have learned the material, will they remember the volume of a cone? Is remembering that formula a valuable skill?
“Keeping in mind that this test occurs probably months after the students have learned the material”
Just because a child doesn’t answer a question correctly on a high stakes tests months later doesn’t mean the teacher didn’t teach that fact or skill and the child didn’t learn it.
Anyone who knows how memory works should understand that only a very small number of people on the planet have instant recall of everything they have ever learned and/or experienced in life. In fact, that number is so small that it may be only a handful of people around the world.
There is short term memory and then long term and what’s transferred from short term memory takes place while we sleep. It’s an automated process that we have little or no control over.
The Common Core Crap and its high stakes tests are based on a flawed premise that children should remember everything they are taught and if they don’t it has to be the teacher’s fault. But reality is entirely different than this artificial crap from Common Core’s high stakes tests. What a teacher teaches isn’t always what a child learns and what a child remembers from what they learned is TOTALLY outside of the teachers control and mostly out of the child’s control too. The brain never sleeps, but the body does, and when the body sleeps, the brain takes over from a subconscious level to make decisions without checking with the whole child, because the child isn’t conscious when those decisions are being made using a complicated automated process, and what the child is thinking that last half our before sleep has a significant role in what gets kept and what gets deleted from short term memory.
Now if only we could make that into a 10 second sound byte maybe someone will believe it!
The idea that what a teacher teaches and what a student learns can be very different has changed my perspective as a teacher. Now my classroom has me doing a lot more listening as students discuss and argue so I can try to understand their thinking. Still not perfect, but better.
Image what happens when a child has dyslexia. I grew up with severe dyslexia and when I was a child there was no name for dyslexia. We were just labeled retarded and not potential college material. My father was a chain smoker, an alcoholic and a chronic gambler. I was a sick child. My early childhood illness was so severe, it threatened my life for most of my youth and I was under a doctor’s care for years.
Most dyslexics will exhibit about 10 of the following traits and behaviors. These characteristics can vary from day-to-day or minute-to-minute. The most consistent thing about dyslexics is their inconsistency.
a few examples:
>Reads and rereads with little comprehension. (specially boring textbooks—that was me. Even in college I’d read some pages repeatedly in an attempt to get meaning out of it)
>Confused by letters, numbers, words, sequences, or verbal explanations. (me)
>Has extended hearing; hears things not said or apparent to others; easily distracted by sounds. (me)
>Difficulty putting thoughts into words; speaks in halting phrases; leaves sentences incomplete; stutters under stress; mispronounces long words, or transposes phrases, words, and syllables when speaking.
>Mistakes and symptoms increase dramatically with confusion, time pressure, emotional stress, or poor health. (me as a child)
>Can be ambidextrous, and often confuses left/right, over/under. (me even today)
Read more: http://www.dyslexia.com/library/symptoms.htm#ixzz3kJlXTH7r
How many children have dyslexia?
Dyslexia is thought to be one of the most common language-based learning disabilities. It is the most common cause of reading, writing, and spelling difficulties. Of people with reading difficulties, 70-80% are likely to have some form of dyslexia. It is estimated that between 5-10% of the population has dyslexia, but this number can also be as high as 17%. The symptoms of dyslexia range from mild to severe. Because dyslexia may not be recognized and diagnosed in some individuals, they do not receive the necessary treatment; others may not disclose that they are diagnosed. These mitigating factors make the prevalence of dyslexia difficult to precisely determine.
http://dyslexiahelp.umich.edu/answers/faq
And to think the RheeFormers are ranking and firing teachers and closing public schools based on test scores months after a teacher teaches the learning linked to a multiple choice question with several answers that appear correct on first examination but only one can be correct. The dyslexic is easily confused and it gets worse when that child is under stress or dealing with poor health.
Children who live in poverty are under stress and often suffer from poor health due to malnutrition and hunger.
Page 14 of NY’s Educator’s Guide to the 2015 Grade 8 Common Core Mathematics Test is the Reference Sheet listing conversions and formulas that are provided to students. They don’t have to memorize the volume formulas for these problems.
Dyslexia is only one of the learning disabilities, and children with dyslexia are easily confused and it’s worse if they are under stress or in poor health. Does access to the formulas help deal with that challenge?
Dyslexia is thought to be one of the most common language-based learning disabilities. It is the most common cause of reading, writing, and spelling difficulties. Of people with reading difficulties, 70-80% are likely to have some form of dyslexia. It is estimated that between 5-10% of the population has dyslexia, but this number can also be as high as 17%. The symptoms of dyslexia range from mild to severe. Because dyslexia may not be recognized and diagnosed in some individuals, they do not receive the necessary treatment; others may not disclose that they are diagnosed. These mitigating factors make the prevalence of dyslexia difficult to precisely determine.
http://dyslexiahelp.umich.edu/answers/faq
Here’s a link to a list of learning disabilities that the Common Core Crap and high stakes tests are totally ignoring.
For instance, just one: Memory
Three types of memory are important to learning. Working memory, short-term memory and long-term memory are used in the processing of both verbal and non-verbal information. If there are deficits in any or all of these types of memory, the ability to store and retrieve information required to carry out tasks can be impaired.
http://ldaamerica.org/types-of-learning-disabilities/
I like your two random thoughts. You ask important questions.
When I was in college, at a prestigious school, my chemistry professor would give us the periodic table and basic formulas on the last sheet of every test. His comment was “I don’t care how well you can memorize, I care how well you can think!” His tests were hard but fair. The promise of Common Core (as it was sold) was a value on thinking, the reality is that it is just more a expensive memorization test. Opt out!
Diane, please tell me you don’t think these questions are too hard. Please!
If any teacher in K-12 can’t pass this test, forget VAMs, they need to be fired on the spot! Or maybe removed from the classroom for remedial math until they can pass.
Lord, help us all!
Virginia, three of five were too hard for me, and I am (I think) a successful professional. I could have answered them correctly in eighth grade, but not now.
Diane, that’s it. You win. I’m moving to China!
We will miss you vsgp. Please let us know how you like your new home in china, and send a forwarding address.
No worry. The danger in war, economic or otherwise, is becoming the enemy. We are looking more like China everyday.
Betsy Marshall: what you said.
Of course, when said commenter has to instantly learn Chinese [hey! it’s easy] and thousands of Chinese characters [no sweat!] but can’t pass even the preK-level math portion of the exam to get into his rheephorm stack-ranking paradise—
He won’t even realize that this is a classic case of Construct-Irrelevance Variance [CIV]. [Note: please google.] He’ll just take the results as 100% bullet-proof evidence of his unworthiness. And, to be honest, he wouldn’t be wrong…
😏
Literally a classic example of making oneself and one’s ideological shibboleths the measure of everyone and everything else.
Hope in this case for change and growth may spring eternal, but Dorothy Parker comes to mind here:
“You can’t teach an old dogma new tricks.”
😎
vsgp, Which do you value more? A student who can recall the formula for the volume of a cone and plug it in a calculator? Or the student who knows where to find that information, then understand the derivation and apply it to different problems? Next question, which student would perform better on a test versus on a company project? I can give you the answer, but if you do not know it, you should be fired on the spot from any industry job. Not so simple as a bunch of test questions, is it?
Students didn’t need to recall the formula for the volume of a cone. According to Engage NY’s test guide, it was supplied to them on a reference sheet along with the test. Fwiw, 70% of students answered that plug-and-chug question correctly, according to the released data.
Lucia, wow. That’s even easier. The move towards tests is a pied piper leading both children and parents into a false sense of “doing something” while true learning crumbles. Americans should be proud of the innovation and achievement accomplished when public schools were valued. Of course after other countries recovered from WWII we were going to see more competition. But now we’ve let fear and paranoia allow billionaires and politicians destroy what others built. Demonizing teachers as demonstrated by Kasich, Cuomo, Christie, Walker, and the like, tears down rather than builds up.
“Fired on the spot”? So if the talented music teacher can’t answer all these questions, she should be “fired”? If the 1st grade teacher who knows exactly what makes the struggling learner understand numbers and their relationship to one another and can turn non-readers into lovers of books can no longer remember how to answer all these questions — as I guarantee you many adults working in professions that even use math have forgotten — they should be “fired”?
If these were all questions I had ever confidence the average politicians or the average “school reform” advocate could answer I would agree with you. If you really think they could do so without having to review those skills — most likely with private tutoring — then you are more naive than I thought.
Should math teachers be able to answer these questions? Of course. Do I care whether my child’s wonderful and caring Kindergarten teacher can? Because it would be better for her to be replaced with a 22 year old fresh from college who can answer these questions but does not have a clue about how to teach a struggling 6 year old how to read without having her feel “misery”?
Are you REALLY a parent, virginniasgp? And do we really need to have that Kindergarten or music teacher spending their time learning how to answer these questions, so that by next year they can be like all the rest of us and promptly forget what we once crammed to “know”?
Saying that “22% of the eighth graders who took this exam got a passing mark” does not tell us very much because 0% (or perhaps a few) of the eighth graders whose middle school was so superb that they took the very difficult 9th grade Algebra Regents instead of this 8th grade exam did not take it.
There you go throwing another wrench into the cogs of the data driven machine that has been forced upon public education.
What’s a more modern concept using computer and programming discourse to say the same thing. Hell, only the industrial votech students and gearheads probably know what a cog is.
cog:
>a person who plays a minor part in a large organization, activity, etc.
Example: You might be a cog at a trading desk (or an opaque, authoritarian, for profit, often fraudulent corporate Charter school), compensated with nothing but money.
Conclusion: a new synonym for cog is “RheeFormer”
I’m sorry — the “faux reformers” on here often attack me for asking such questions.
In truth, these questions seem reasonable, although unnecessarily convoluted – especially when a huge number of students in public schools (and not charter schools) are ELL. If you want to test whether 8th graders understand these concepts, just write a straightforward test. No need to test whether 8th graders are taught to decipher convoluted questions since there is little value in that “skill”.
And as someone pointed out, until we see all the questions, it’s unclear whether these were the easiest ones.
I recall seeing the first 9th grade Common Core Algebra I Regents’ exam and while some of the questions were what I would have expected, many of the questions were trig and Algebra II. So just publishing select questions from an exam isn’t exactly confidence-inducing.
NYC public school parent, did you just say that we should use as a baseline the ability level of illegal immigrants (ELL students)? I’m sorry, but no Asian immigrant I know has any problem with these tests. Please tell me we don’t have to water down our standards so the teachers of ELL students can feel good about themselves and their students.
Virginia, your love for standardization is not universally shared.
Good lord! I’d be in some serious trouble because I don’t remember how to do most of this math – haven’t used these skills so… now, can I look at & logically figure out some of the answers without the formulas? Yes! Can I check the internet for formulas & examples & figure out how to do the cone problem? Yes! But since I have never, ever in all my 60+ years needed to know how to figure out a problem with a cone, how is this necessary college ready material? I agree that we need to “stretch” the brain so that we are constantly learning, but I don’t understand why some of the examples are chosen other than to make it difficult for students to pass…
The problems are chosen because they are based on middle school math standards. Just like solving equations, integer operations, etc.
I think the issue is that content standards are being pushed to be the basis for “college readiness”. It’s much more involved than that. What’s the biggest predictor of college success? GPA. Why? We all know.
Your Fired! (at least according to virginiasgp)
If I “align” my passing level with NAEP, or anything else the only way is to use their “proficient” percentage,or something close, and so after rescaling naturally only 22% achieved “proficient”, REGARDLESS of their actual scores on the test. Easy, isn’t it!
Show us the tests and tell us the actual scores, then we’ll know what’s happening.
You folks simply don’t understand what is meant by “aligning”, do you?
It sounds like you are claiming they pick a number out of thin air and say that’s our passing rate. That is fundamentally incorrect. I can’t believe you all simply can’t understand this simple concept.
When they say align, they match up similar questions (or in the SAT, they can reuse questions to explicitly “align”) on both exams. Then, generate “cut scores” so that a student who took the NAEP would get the same “proficiency” as one who took the PARCC or SBAC.
Taken another way, consider we have questions ranging in difficulty from 1 to 10. If we place all level 10 questions on the exam, the students get 15% correct and fail. If we use all Level 1 questions, students get 95% and pass. But we don’t need to have a perfect distribution of questions. We can simply align the questions between exams (maybe we have more level 6-9 on this one) and then lower the number of absolute correct answers to pass since the questions were more difficult.
If students actually answer more questions of a similar level correctly (e.g. they learned more after the intro of CC), then their passing rate will be higher than the NAEP. Period!!! If they answer fewer aligned questions correctly, then a lower passing rate results.
This goes back to the critical thinking of teachers. You simply can’t understand what is going on with respect to grading, scoring and aligning. You misinterpret the facts and the professors like Amrein-Beardsley and Linda Hammond don’t have the integrity to correct the disciples in their movement. I will correct anybody on my side who makes erroneous charges because it undermines out case. Your falsehoods appear to be celebrated as “creative propaganda”.
virginia, there is no good reason to align state tests with NAEP proficient. I have explained this about ten times on this blog. NAEP proficient represents A level performance. You are a smart man. Do you think that 100% of the students will ever reach that level? What do you propose to do with the 60% who never get there?
Diane, as a great rheeformer once said, “if I’m the smartest person in the room, we are in big big trouble!” There is absolutely a good reason to align them with NAEP because that’s the standard by which kids are ready for college without needing remedial classes. And it sounds about right at 33% going to college. Look, we will never get these rates up to 60% period. I don’t expect all kids to pass but many of these skills and concepts are needed across teh board. We don’t need (or they are not capable) 60% of our kids going to get advanced degrees. We can probably increase these “pass rates” to 40%+ but even 50% will be hard. Does that mean that our “schools are failing”? No. In business intelligence, you set the thresholds at reasonable targets. When we measure how many organizations are properly transfering costs, we don’t even target 100% as some orgs don’t need to do that. If we improve these rates to 45% (even 40%), that will be a big improvement. And even then, VAMs measure growth of similar kids. Some schools might be effective at 20%. Others might need 65%+ to be successful if their kids are smart/affluent.
Are you really just hung up on a number that you believe shows kids are “failing”? If kids go to charter schools, they have to take the same tests. Hopefully, some charters can achieve better results. But eventually, I doubt there will be much difference between the two. The point is to improve instruction across all educational channels by promoting better standards, lessons and more talented teachers. If we have two scores – a college ready score based on NAEP and a school effectiveness rating with a lower cut score – would that make you happy?
I find it very odd that opinions are all over the map on this board. The questions are appropriate. They are not. The questions measure critical thinking skills. They measure memorization. It seems like the only thing that binds your readers is an steadfast belief that teachers should never be evaluated and held accountable. Kind of like the only thing that holds Democrats together is their desire to spend other people’s money (on themselves or have the feds spend it). If some of the issues were resolved, your readers would splinter faster than a falling tree.
What really gets me is why you are using your influence to undermine this effort. I get that you don’t like charters but why hammer CC and the tests? There are legitimate critiques as I described the hidden overweighting of VAMs the other day. Or not providing tests that have questions both below and above the “grade level” to more accurately measure growth. Or reporting 8th grade scores without caveats when only the slower kids take the test. Or administrators not providing enough support for teachers to observe their peers or have a variety of “best of breed” lesson plans to choose from.
You have incredible reach and the ability to communicate in a humorous, yet pointed manner. You could have so much influence in improving the CC and the tests. Most of your readers don’t even follow your subtle points as they hear the dog whistle and repeat stereotyped claims without any understanding of what’s going on (growth vs achievement). It’s actually quite a shame.
Betsy Marshall, that’s funny. I’ll miss you too. Not too many teachers to fire in China!
Btw, anybody else notice that all the math teachers on here say the questions are “basic” and straightforward. All the education majors on here are clueless.
Jeannie Kaplan, I guess logic was definitely not your strong suit. Do you realize that it doesn’t matter if you pass or fail on teacher/school evaluations, but how much progress you make from year to year? If you are a “bad test taker”, then that would show up every year. Question, are there any folks with low scores who are willing to admit they just didn’t know the material as opposed to being a “bad test taker”?
NYC public school parent, we’ve seen many educators on here claim it’s “cute” for some teachers to state “I hate math”. But would it be ok for anyone to say “I hate reading” or “I can’t write to save my life”? Nobody believes it’s acceptable not to be able to read/write. Why is it ok to not understand very basic math? Aren’t these educators supposed to be “professionals” with a minimum of knowledge? I expect any person walking down the street to answer these.
Promptly “forget what we once crammed to know”? Are you serious? This is why CC was created. Folks like Billy Gates got tired of this excuse being given. Let me explain what these questions are really about.
1. Multiplication is equivalent to area. It’s basically the 2-dimenionsal area of a shape. Or in simpler terms, width * length. This is why we teach multiplication as the area of a rectangle to little kids. They understand what that means.
2. Multiplication is actually equivalent to the addition of any dimension. For volume, it’s area * height.
3. So the volume questions are easy. You just find the area and multiply by the height.
a. For the cylinder, the area is a circle. Then, you simply multiply by the height. Easy.
b. For the cone, the area is also a circle. Then, you simply multiply by the height. Finally take into account that some of that volume of a cylinder is “missing” in a cone. For a cone, the volume is 1/3 a cylinder as 2/3 are missing. For a triangle, 1/2 is missing relative to a rectangle.
4. The formulas are given at the front of the test (see Lucia’s comment). Just like the SAT where every formula is given too. Now, I don’t like the decimals. Never used a calculator on a test in my life but this one requires it. I’d rather them leave the answer in irrational notation. E.g. 24 * pi.
5. These questions are actually cricial thinking questions! The swimming pool requires you to understand that 6 inches is 1/2 ft and subtract that from the height. The angles question simply requires you to understand basic geometry (angles in a triangle = 180; angels of any concave polygon = (n-2) * 180) and symmetry. The critical thinking part is (a) what do I know from the text and (b) how can I apply that to determine the new information. The properties of the angles (right angle = 90 degrees and similar triangles have equivalent angles) and formulas are trivial.
6. The first question is most important because everybody should use that. Many products are sold as (a) “unlimited use” or (b) fee + rate. Phone companies would sell internet bandwidth this way. If you don’t go to college but open your business, you need to determine which plan is the best value for you. If you want to hire an employee, you need to be able to figure out the break even point when there are fixed and variable costs, revenues and thus profits. Folks, this is used in every walk of life. You can’t dismiss it just because you never learned it.
Now, if I had taught your math classes (or I’m sure other talented teachers on here who understand the CC principles), you would have NEVER memorized a formula. You would have understood the concept of volume equals area * height or area equals width * length. Then, you could figure out how to apply the information (with a formula provided) for any problem complexity. The fact that so many on here think these questions are about memorizing formulas proves Gates’ point tenfold!
NYC public school parent, as for me being a parent, do you doubt that? Do we need to have a photogenic kids contest? I’m pretty sure I can win that with most anybody (not sure where they got it from) but since I don’t exploit my kids like politicians, that’s not gonna happen.
Btw, I’m taking a break from finalizing my Virginia Supreme Court appeal. Any takers to help me proofread before I file it this week?
Virginia, no one can improve the CC. They are copyrighted and change is not permitted. Va, you are thinking like an officer. But children are not in the military, and they belong to their family not to the state or corporate charters.
Dr. Ravitch,
States can always stop using the CCSS, and the copyright is of no concern. I believe the material was copyrighted to prevent unscrupulous book publishers from making unwanted claims about their texts.
TE, the copyright was adopted to prevent any states from changing anything in the CCSS. Every textbook publishers today claims that their textbooks are aligned with the CC, so that is not a reason to prevent any changes. Since you obviously did not read my post on the American National Standards Institute, you should know that one of the criteria for setting national standards is to have an open and accessible means of seeking revisions to the standards; CC has none. By any of the nationally agreed upon ANSI standards, CCSS fails.
Dr. Ravitch,
States can simply not adopt the CCSS. Why would anyone care that they can not change an educational standard that someone else adheres to?
TE, I am sorry you do not know or understand the history of the CC. After the economic meltdown of 2008, Congress passed an economic recovery plan that included $100 billion for education. $95 billion was intended to go to districts to prevent disastrous cuts and layoffs. The other $5 billion was handed to Arne Duncan to promote “reform.” He put $4.35 billion into a pot and called it Race to the Top. States were invited to apply. To be eligible, they had to adopt the “college and career ready standards, known as the CC (which had not yet been written). Some 46 or so states signed MOUs to adopt CC. In most cases, they agreed without ever seeing the CC. They were never field tested. The federal government then required states to adopt them if the states wanted waivers from the dire consequences of NCLB. Coercion all around. True, states did not have to adopt them unless they didn’t want a crack at winning hundreds of millions and if they didn’t mind having all their schools declared failures.
Diane, Virginia never adopted CC yet we have an ESEA waiver. How could that be?
You see, while it’s a good idea to adopt CC, states are not required to do so. If you demonstrate that you have “high quality assessments” and a rigorous curriculum, you can pick your own. Virginia did that. Thus, while RTTT’s bonus money requires CC, the waivers to the AYP of NCLS has never required states to adopt CC.
simple, Virginia, Arne lives in Virginia. No CC, no failure for his kids
when Washington State refused to judge teachers by test scores, Arne withdrew its waiver. Every single school in the state is now labeled a failure
Diane, that’s the thing with federal handouts. If you take it, you must play by the rules. If you take Medicaid $$$, then you play by the rules. I’m sure you wouldn’t support Texas setting its own Medicaid eligibility rules after taking federal funds, now would you?
Washington state wanted the money but didn’t want to play by the rules. That’s not allowed.
Funny thing is Virginia did the same thing. They took the money and created SGPs. But a funny thing happened down there in Richmond with Governor McAuliffe and Sec of Education Ann Holton (Sen Tim Kaine’s wife). They never had districts give the SGPs to the teachers! But wait it gets even worse. No district is using SGPs for evals even though they were required to and gave assurances to the feds that it was being done. Yep, they took $40M+/yr and flat out broke the rules. Even lied about it during the applications. That’s called fraud boys and girls and I believe it’s a felony.
You see, all this came out in Richmond City Circuit Court. It’s in the transcript!
But back to the federal handouts. Do you think states should receive block grants and make up their own rules? Or do you think states should have to comply with federal regulations if they take money? Be careful, Diane, this may be a “trick question”.
Dr. Ravitch,
Do the citizens of Texas, Oklahoma, Virginia, Alaska, Indiana, Nebraska, or South Carolina care that the CCSS are copyrighted? If a state wants to have standards significantly different from the CCSS, the state can simply write it’s own standards.
Wow Brien, just when I think you can’t get anymore inane you come up with something like this:
“This goes back to the critical thinking of teachers. You simply can’t understand what is going on with respect to grading, scoring and aligning. . . Your falsehoods appear to be celebrated as “creative propaganda.”
If there ever was a case of pot calling the kettle black there it is!
And this bit of drivel:
“But we don’t need to have a perfect distribution of questions. We can simply align the questions between exams. . . ”
Oh, so “aligning” different questions with supposedly the same degree of difficulty from different tests will make one or both tests reliable as assessments of learning? What is the standard for determining that “degree of difficulty” and what is the measuring device to determine that “degree of difficulty” and how accurate is that measuring device? What is the construct validity of the questions in question?
But hey you don’t need to answer any of those questions because without validity, reliability questions are moot. Yes, Noel Wilson has proven the complete invalidity of standardized tests so there is no valid reliability whatsoever. Can’t make a silk purse out of pig ears.
And a lot of these standardized tests are fit into a bell curve, making it literally IMPOSSIBLE to have 100% of students achieve “proficient.”
TOW,
I think that is a good reason not to used a norm referenenced test for this purpose. A criterion referenced test is what should be used.
Emperor Virginia SRP,
You obviously don’t know how data gathered from test scores reflect student’s performance.
Giving out the tests do not make students better in academic performance. 50% of those fall into the lower half of bell curve. 2/3 of those settle within standard deviation. Students with high scores typically belong to 2 or higher above the standard deviation–which is approximately 0.01% to 0.05% of all test-takers.
This doesn’t change any shape of data-point, regardless of level-setting or what tests–CCs, SAT, GRE, TOEFL, ACTs, etc., you use. It doesn’t really matter whether you are talking about academic performance in the US, Japan, China, South Korea, Finland, or Sweden.
Your unrealistic suggestion compares any non-English speaking country in which national/local government imposes a ridiculously high level of English language proficiency test– which is equivalent to American high-school/junior college students. Perhaps, you should go to Japan and sell your SPR model to clueless, hardheaded MEXT bureaucrats with Supervona “gaijin” spirit, if you think that would work effectively for improvement of English language education out there.
Ken Watanabe: I hate to evoke an unpleasant image but the emperor, uh, has no clothes.
😧
On RheeWorld, numerical chimera like cut scores are objective flashpoints of pass/fail without human taint or imperfection. Some folks live there—but only in their most fevered imaginations.
On Planet Reality—the place we all actually live—figural phantoms like cut scores are most often calculated political decisions (made by rheephorm-minded politicians and educrats aiming to fulfill edupreneurial ROI) without any regard for even the appearance of impartiality. *Giving rise to the rheephorm mantra: Damn democracy! Full speed ahead!*
“Every absurdity has a champion to defend it.” [Oliver Goldsmith]
The dead Irish poet of the 18th century trumps [word pun intended!] the 21st century cage-busting emperor.
Go figure… [a numbers/stat joke]
😎
virginia
In reply to your discussion of the eighth grade math questions:
I am guessing you are younger than I and did not grow up during that period when one could do math or could not. I was told I could not and not to take anymore classes in it. I aced my “slow” geometry class and was placed in the regular one. The teacher in that class did not teach the critical thinking part and everyone memorized it. I did not. I think now it was because I was always trying to decipher the concepts.
I just want you to know that I appreciated your summary of the reasoning behind the problems and totally agreed with your statements regarding the thinking that should be taught. A colleague of mine stressed these points with learning disabled students and they did well on the state tests. You may have also read my comments regarding the kind of math instruction I am frustrated with at the elementary level.
Whether we all need to carry these formulas around forever or not we could as a nation use the underlying thinking you summarized.
West coast teacher, thank you for the comments. I will submit that there are not very many people who are “bad at math”. You just were taught in a non-intuitive way. This can be devastating for girls. If math is not made fun and interesting, and then taught solely using “memorizing formulas/facts”, it’s going to be a struggle. It’s not fair to them.
Now, many elementary school teachers who are education majors may not have been taught well either. How can we really blame them for not teaching math in similar ways that they were taught. But what is the solution? It might be difficult to retrain all the elementary teachers to teach the “new math”. It’s why I think we need more STEM majors at the elementary level because I think they could teach both. Not positive on that.
I just don’t think folks need to be brilliant to understand math. And the more intuitive your understanding, the more you can apply it in life. On that first problem, every small business owner runs into that same issue about whether they will make a profit. I’m happy that many high school grads start their own businesses. It’s imperative they understand those relationships and I believe our high schools can be effective in teaching those concepts in a way their students retain it for life. Thanks again.
Your demands do not compute!
My guessing ability has definitely improved over time. (Something better!) Math was always my strong suit. Standardized testing, not so much. I got four right by using a little common sense and some good guess work. I certainly wouldn’t have wanted my teachers evaluated by my performance on standardized tests.
Question 4 is not a real world problem. It’s simply formula recall and application.
Questions 5 isn’t much better. How many students in NYC have swimming pools?
Here is a much better volume question done by Dan Meyers:
http://threeacts.mrmeyer.com/hotcoffee/
Here is another one:
http://threeacts.mrmeyer.com/leakyfaucet/
Answers make sense if you get the hang of questions. I’m doing very good at math, but I could get terrible score if I did not prepare for the exams written in English. Some questions have confusing information that deliberately tricks test-takers. That’s the issue students(and, so do I) have.
“Maybe ‘Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader?’ isn’t a show that displays how stupid grown adults can be, but rather, a show that depicts how much useless information we teach grade schoolers that won’t be retained or applicable later in life.” ~The Internet
Diane, I’m pretty sure we can agree on this one. Even if you don’t support someone’s position, they should be free to speak out publicly (assuming they are not in a leadership position). I support the right for all teachers to publicly comment on the merits of CC, the quality of the tests, and other policies. We shouldn’t shut down speech.
In my home district, when teachers spoke out against a principal who was forcing them to change grades and inflate everything (teachers even filed a formal protest), this lawyer came in for an investigation and cleared the district of any wrongdoing. It was outrageous to mock teachers by saying they should “stop the rumor mill”.
Fast forward to today. Our new superintendent doesn’t like to address the subpar performance of the affluent Loudoun schools. Teachers’ salary starts at $47K (in addition to pension) and we spend nearly $13K/yr per student. Most teachers would love to teach here because you are virtually guaranteed to have high student scores. However, when you compare the student results to those of similar schools in the US (many taught by your readers), your teacher followers are blowing our district away in these PISA tests (forget the international, just look at “similar” schools in the US). LCPS also doesn’t like to talk about how they defrauded the US DOE out of ESEA money by never even downloading SGP data they promised to give teachers.
When I commented on these unethical actions, LCPS censored my comments. You can read about it here on this Virginia SGP Facebook posts.
I never want anybody to be silenced. That’s a main reason I volunteered to go into the Navy rather than Silicon Valley in the heydays of 1996. I thought folks might be interested in the actions of some of the most despicable school officials you will ever meet.
Virginia, of course, I believe in free speech and dissident opinion, which is why I tolerate so many commenters who prefer privatization to public schools. It is like letting a Boston Red Sox fan sit in the cheering section of the Yankees.
Let me point out that $47,000 is not a big salary compared to other professions or to Wall Street. Try teaching and see how you fare.
It seems to me that the Navy has even less free speech than most other employers. You obey orders whether you agree or not.
I want to add that in the United States, Freedom of Speech is not absolute. There are limits and in the private sector there are more limits than in the public sector.
What Does Free Speech Mean?
http://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/educational-resources/about-educational-outreach/activity-resources/what-does
Lloyd, true but in a limited public forum, policies must be content neutral. You can’t allow supporting comments to stand and delete critical comments. Diane, on the other hand, can delete anything she wants as a private blog. But she rarely does.
For reference, Google Mike Pence and his deletion of posts on his Facebook page. He relented so it didn’t go to court. But see the comments of a University of Florida professor on how this case will turn out. Folks have control over campaign sites but must be neutral on official office pages.
What do you mean by “neutral on official office pages”—I have never heard of any laws that control that. Wouldn’t that be up to the CEO of each private-sector business site? The rule of thumb in corporate America is probably “if its bad for business or doesn’t represent the politics of the major shareholders and/or the CEO, then it is forbidden”.
For instance, Rupert Murdock and his News Corp empire, the second largest media empire in the world. How often has it been documented that his media empire supports his views by cherry-picking data, lying and manipulating what the public hears and reads?
In fact, “News Corp isn’t a news corporation at all. It’s the lobbying arm of Rupert Murdoch’s global conglomerate, in the business of wielding influence.”
http://www.alternet.org/story/151713/the_big_lie_at_the_heart_of_rupert_murdoch's_media_empire
In addition, before President Ray-Gun, the United States had the Fairness Doctrine.
“The Fairness Doctrine was a policy of the United States Federal Communications Commission (FCC), introduced in 1949, that required the holders of broadcast licenses to both present controversial issues of public importance and to do so in a manner that was, in the Commission’s view, honest, equitable and balanced.”
President Ray-Gun got rid of the Fairness Doctrine on the allegations that it limited freedom of speech. How could the Fairness Doctrine limit freedom of speech when it required broadcasters to allow both sides to view their honest, equitable and balanced thinking?
Instead, President Ray-Gun and the 1st Bush vetoed the Fairness Doctrine from becoming official through a majority vote of the U.S. Congress and this defined freedom of speech as the freedom to lie without fear that the lies would be revealed.
Closely following the end of the Fairness Doctrine, the Untied States saw explosive growth in hate radio and hate talk shows on TV where content was totally controlled by the producers where someone with a dissenting opinion doesn’t get to express themselves in those forums. Instead, those who are allowed to call in are carefully screened and the talk show host has his finger hovering over a button to disconnect any caller who starts to make too much sense revealing the lies behind the cherry-picked propaganda and hate spewed by the talk show host. I’ve fact checked several of these hate radio/TV hosts and found many of their claims based on lies and exaggeration far beyond the honest and balanced truth.
I wonder if there is any link between “A Nation at Risk” in 1983 followed four years later by the end of The Fairness Doctrine in 1987, three years before the release of the Sandia Report that revealed the flaws and fraud behind “A Nation at Risk”—a report that has been ignored by every president since 1990 and the corporate media. Instead, the corporate media and every president refers to “A Nation at Risk” repeatedly in their war against every aspect of public education.
A war based on fraud and lies is not a just war. Vietnam was based on a lie. Iraq was based on a lie. How many other lies have there been to manipulate public opinion?
Lloyd, sorry I’m on my mobile. Should be official public pages as in a government entity or official. You can block all comments or no comments. But public bodies cannot provide a forum for their supporters to provide praise and block dissenters from criticizing them. I can provide case law when I get home.
Murdoch or private parties can do anything they want. I believe that “fairness doctrine” is unconstitutional as well it should be.
This all goes back to the school board chairman blocking/deleting my criticism in January when I told him to stop digging his PR hole. He told folks I threatened his life (slander) and attempted to have me banned from speaking at school board meetings (see Virginia SGP Facebook page for details). Bottom line is one looks weak when you suppress comments. Diane knows this and doesn’t suppress. One should be able to win on quality of their arguments.
What started out as a disagreement over SGP data has turned into so many other issues (perjury, fraud, free speech). These guys are going to be famous or rather infamous.
Jim said they were simple geometry problems he could answer in the 8th grade. I’m not surprised. I never took geometry. Not in junior high, senior high or college! Has Alex had geometry? Did you?
Kitty