Dormand Long commented on a post by Bruce Baker. Baker criticized University of Arkansas study that hailed charter schools as more “cost-effective” than public schools. In other contexts, reformers have referred to children as “human assets” and “human capital.” This reflects the migration of business terminology into not only education but the way we think and talk about children. Frankly, as a mother and grandmother, I never thought of my children as “human assets.” To me, they were my children, my precious children.
Reader Dormand Long comments:
“It is interesting when one hears the term “cost-effective” used when a newbie enters the area of developing the next generation of our leaders of this country.
“When the pencil pushers took over at General Motors from the engineers, we heard acclaim of how they had found supply sources that were more “cost-effective” than before and how this would improve earnings per share performance.
“Might I suggest that GM Mary Barra would like to get her hands around the neck of some of those pencil pushers who gave the nod to those below standard ignition switches put on by assembly line workers from out of the parts bins?
“The term “value engineering” is critical to management. It is only valid as a process if there is absolutely no diminution of value or reliability to the customer.
“The surviving family members of those who lost their lives in the GM cars with the defective ignition switches probably have strong feelings when they hear the term
“cost-effective.”
“I know that GM CEO Mary Barra has very strong feelings when she hears that term.”

quote: “reformers have referred to children as “human assets” and “human capital.” This reflects the migration of business terminology into not only education but the way we think and talk about children.”
a lot of women don’t want to be “objectified” and this is what we do with the students when they are treated this way…
I have discussed the difference in viewpoint with friends but all I have is the Buber I/Thou depiction of relationships…. does anyone have any better modern language I can use to explain it?
In the business world when I was growing up there was always a sense of “good will ” from business owners …. when I get disturbed with a “banker” on the phone I always say it helps if you live in the same community and if you go to the same church and sit in the same pew in order to get that feeling of mutual respect. At 17 in my first job at Jordan Marsh(Macy’s) we were told the “customer is always right”…. How many of these are old values that need to be replaced? and which ones can be modernized (such as the I/Thou depiction) with language that communicates. In a similar vein, the women’s movement was called “backlash” yet I don’t see it in that sense because the connotation is a recalcitrant attitude rather than a progressive forward movement….. and that makes it easy to call a teacher a “luddite”…. or some pejorative.
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Roughly speaking, we should want schools to be about as cost effective as any other institution of government. If schools were more cost effective than public health departments or Head Start, it would make sense to take resources away from public health departments and Head Start and give them to schools. If schools are less cost effective than public health departments or Head Start, resources should be pulled frim schools and sent to public health and Head Start.
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Well, now that I think about it, I think I may actually agree with you for once. The waste, fraud, abuse and simple “loss” of money in the military is simply staggering, making it probably the least cost-effective institution of government. Therefore, yes, let’s take resources away from the military and give them to public health, public education, etc. I like this thinking.
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Dienne: immediately a red flag comes up for me because my niece just came back from Afghanistan and she said the kids are getting 2 meals a day…… We tried to run “wars on the cheap” , drained the budgets with war debt, and now the repercussions and consequences are obvious because we have cash-strapped states looking for educational funds from the federal government etc etc etc and bitter battles over health care, Veterans services ….…. I just went in and cut two of my sentences because I was being too confrontational here and it is not the place.
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Bravo! I completely agree and think cost-effectiveness should be applied to the military and its vast waste. I can’t wait for the transfer of billions from the flawed F-35 to health, education and public transit!! Let’s install the military’s hundred-dollar toilet seats in some of our most needy schools!! And, how about applying cost-effectiveness to the 8 great investment banks of America which hide behind their “too big to jail” situation? They all were allowed to stay in business and restore their predatory practices to the distress of the 99%. As soon as the military is de-funded and the great banks are indicted, count me in for surgery on public education!
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Ira,
We currently spend about $632 billion a year on education ( see http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmb.asp ). An extra billion or two is unlikely to have a large impact. An extra $50 billion every year might do some good depending on how effectively it is spent.
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A succinct, zero-sumed world view.
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MathVale,
The world is generally positive sum. We can see this easily in market transactions where you are happy to buy tomatoes at the framers market and the farmer is happy to sell them to you. Both sides gain from the transaction.
Budgets, however, are zero sum. Resources devoted to chills can not be used to straighten the dangerous twisting road outside of town. Resources spent on public health outreach campaigns can not also be used to expand public full day kindergarten to all the children in the state.
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Budgets are monetary value statements of priorities. But education is not a line item cost. Education is an investment in the future with returns difficult to measure. A very different view than seeing the world as only functioning if one person takes wealth from another.
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MathVale,
Education is one investment that society makes, but there are many others as well. Public health expenditures, infrastructure spending, aid to those in poverty, research expenditures, almost everything governments and many things individuals spend resources on are, to some degree, investments in the future.
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I’ll add, at least in larger corps and probably state/federal levels, budgets are more of a suggestion. By the time the formal budget cycle finishes, the budget is already obsolete. Hence, the basis for Dilbert cartoons.
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MathVale,
If you would rather talk about how resources are actually used rather than how folks planned to use them, that is fine. The same principles apply.
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TE, your arguments are EXACTLY the kind of arguments made by the Utah State Legislature. These arguments have been made for the last 30 years. The result has been stagnant, and now, falling, wages for teachers, and horrific class sizes. I will have 280 students in my classes (geography, history, and debate) in January (244 until then, but I pick up an additional period second semester). The legislators brag that Utah gets a lot of “bang for the buck” because Utah’s NAEP scores have been about the middle of the road. HOWEVER, a study in 2007 that compared Utah to other states with similar demographics shows that Utah is dead last in scores. As Utah becomes more heterogeneous, these scores continue to sink. It really IS true that you get what you pay for.
Are there places that money could be saved? Certainly. HOWEVER, Utah has pretty low student to administrator ratios. One thing that Utah secondary schools depend on are student fees, which are usually $100 or more (without extracurricular activities) per student. As a result, schools like mine, with a lot of poverty, get a lot less money that wealthier schools, because of the fee waivers. The wealthier schools get all kinds of enrichment and field trips and other good things, while poor schools have teachers who have to buy their own copy paper, tissues, pencils, and other supplies. I see this firsthand in my own district.
Utah gets away with this because of a fairly homogenous group of students, although that is changing, and a strong education ethic. That being said, no one envies my enormous class sizes, and teacher shortages are fairly common, because who wants to work in those kinds of conditions?
I’m giving examples of why cost effectiveness is not what the goal of education should be. Elimination of waste is always good, but education on the cheap is not what we want. And yet reformers want states and schools to spend ridiculous amounts of money on “consultants” and high-stakes tests, and then preach cost savings. Go figure.
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Oh! Forgot to include the link on the study I mentioned:
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/695224084/Utah-test-scores-are-startling.html?pg=all
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quote: “Utah’s school population has a lot of educational advantages, including low poverty rates and a high percent of parents who have graduated from college. With these advantages, a state like Utah is expected to score much higher than national averages.”
T.Out West: …. In that article you shared, the sentence says “is expected to score” …. they are making up algorithms in education that have these “expectations” that are unrealistic. The worst example is in special education….. For decades it was propped that the student’s IQ would tell where s/he was “expected to score” but that is a false premise and I think it is false when we compare countries this way or states this way. I keep using the example of MA/NH because that’s where I live but there is a diverse difference and that is as it should be — we are not to turn out a “standardized” widget because we have diversity and variation is good.
On another issue, when I read this it automatically says to me “it’s the wrong test”. When we originally started setting “standards” we were able to use any test we wanted from the available sources such as IOWA TEST , CALIFORNIA Test, NOVA (a lot of the parochial schools used it), STANFORD etc and this is my belief that the diversity was good…..No one knows the “best” curriculum for the future of our students and the brightest and most qualified individuals in the schools., colleges and districts (cities /towns) need to continue working on this — not have a uniformity decided by a federal committee . I would want more variation and diversity built into the curriculum not the conformity that is forced by a federal entity. So given the portrayal in that article you shared I would want to find out if the test aligns with the curriculum … The issue in this case is alignment of the curriculum with the test and it just seems to me that the Utah curriculum (in all its diversity) doesn’t align with the NAEP test but I cannot place a value on that saying that it is “Good” “Bad” etc until we dig deeper.
NAEP Governing Board puts out a test and every one must jump to that tune of the “ONE SIZE” and it makes me very angry. The choice of a test was left up to the school district previously (in my example of Iowa Test, Nova Test, Stanford Test, California Test) and there was diversity in the selection of the test; then LOCAL faculty were prepared to set standards based on the curriculum and the aligned test. It was not a handed-down set of standards from the state. When there were federal funds being used the state would come out with a list of suggested tests but did not mandate one prescribed. In my way of thinning the choice and the diversity were GOOD (valuable and wanted).
So this is exactly why I am angry because now the textbook publisher PEARSON controls the curriculum (which is wrong) because they publish the materials and the tests and demand the funds to pay for the technology/computers to standardize. I want it to be DIVERSE with faculty able to develop and create from their expertise in the field with actual students and the R&D to be coming from colleges and universities that are creative (not “owned” by corporations like Walton Foundation) … I don’t want the Rupert Murdoch Monopoly or the PEARSON monopoly and it infuriates me because they take these reports and make glowing generalizations about students and teachers.
P.S. I would want to have more data on the Utah students than just the NAEP before I made any conclusions about your students…
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Threatened,
The question is what do the good folks of Utah see as value. Frankly, I find believers in in religious organizations a bit of a mystery. I don’t think that I am born to die.
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quoting statement by Teaching Economist:
“The question is what do the good folks of Utah see as value. Frankly, I find believers in in religious organizations a bit of a mystery. I don’t think that I am born to die.This comment in a perspective on faith or religion is out of line.”
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Contrary to popular belief, TE, Utah has a lot of non-Mormons. Also, Mormons don’t believe people are “born to die,” either.
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Threatened,
I guess you did not get the reference. In any case, democracy in Utah has resulted in low spending levels in the state. Local control is great until the point where you disagree with what the locals decide.
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Ironically, TE, Mormons value children HIGHLY. The Legislators (most of whom ARE of the dominant religion) don’t. Low taxes are the most important thing to the legislators and a small core of die-hard libertarians and Eagle Forum people who have an inordinate amount of power. Several polls taken in the last ten years in Utah have shown that most Utahns (honestly, that’s how it’s spelled!) would pay higher taxes IF they knew the money was going to public education classrooms. But the legislators don’t listen to the vast majority, and Utahns tend to have a live and let live attitude about a lot of things, so there’s not a lot of fight over it. It’s aggravating.
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Threatened,
If the vast majority of the citizens of Utah are concerned that the legislature does not listen to them, a simple solution would be to vote those legislators out.
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teaching economist: i have done my best to understand accountability all my working life; my last boss before I retired was also President of the MASBO — Massachusetts Association of School Business Officials — and he taught us many of the concepts (as Henry Levin illustrates in all his articles on using technology effectively in schools). There is another aspect to teaching/education than just “the bottom line” and the only way I can express it is to offer an example: in classrooms we have used some excellent materials on justice that come from the Center for Civic Education in Calabasas CA. They are not widely disseminated but should be (Ted kennedy helped us get some in to the classrooms through federal funds). The concepts taught in their civic education program such as civic virtue and the concepts of JUSTICE in the curriculum seem to be missing when we get to the discussion of the “bottom line”…..So now we have privatized prisons where the CEO can brag that he can serve a meal for 69 cents to a prisoner….. (this is not total hyperbole but I am trying to make a point here.) Policy and decision making is about what rules we live by and how we set priorities in budgets for these competing values and the teachers have been pushed out of the dialogue by the CPAs or the “bean counters” and it has happened in the public university as it has in the public school. There is one professor I read of who, when asked “how long did it take you to prepare that Shakespeare lecture?” responded, “well only all of my life.” The paradigms are different. Again I fall back on my earlier concentration of studies when we read Galbraith’s “Economics and the Public Purpose” but those ideas don’t seem to be in vogue any more.
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Jeanhaverhill,
I think the validity of using the bottom line to allocate resources depends on what you define as the bottom line. I used the term “roughly” deliberately because it is difficult to compare national security to reduced rates of flu infection to better reading comprehension to safer roads, but those are the comparisons we make when putting together a government budget.
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then I can live with your definition but I just want to know who the “WE” are in your statement… because teachers have been pushed aside from the discussion tables, denigrated and belittled as if they have no value or worth of their opinions or goals for students. The CEO ‘s accounting office at the college gives no credence to the opinions of the faculty. Large numbers of parents are feeling this… so I still want to define what you think is a democracy and who “WE” or which “WE” prepares that budget and makes the tradeoffs. I never was a “hawk” and the extremes the hawks have pushed with homeland security is absurd and a complete waste of blood and treasure (our kids in decades of wars). My nephew in OK/TX worked for the original Mr. Halliburton and he says Mr Halliburton would be turning over in his grave if he saw what the company has become….and you think you have some metric or algorithm that would clarify these debates over the priorities for a democracy? I guess it must be something magical I’ve never seen or heard of.
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Jeanhaverhill,
By “we” I mean society.
Unless your institution is very different from mine, the accounting office does not make rules, it enforces them. At my institution the Chancellor, the Provost, the Senior Vice Provost, the Vice Provost and Dean of Undergraduate Studies, the Dean of Graduate Studies, and, of course, all the Deans and Associate Deans of all the schools are faculty members. Those are the positions that influence policy.
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You should live in Texas, where we have to hear a lot of rhetoric from our esteemed Governor Rick Perry about the need for a $10,000 degree.
I have no doubt that Texas could produce a lot degree holders for a cost of $10,000 per degree.
Whether many of those $10,000 degree holders would be able to secure a salaried job with benefits in other than a hierarchical organization is of some doubt.
I suggest that many of the Perry $10K wonders would end up in mall stores, folding clothes.
With a proper education they might be on the road to finding a cure for cancer.
I vote for the latter.
Incidentally, the College of Veterinary Medicine at Texas A & M University soundly rejected the application for admission from one undergraduate who clearly had laughed and played his way though school, achieving inept results in the essential science lab courses that vets must master. The undergraduate’s name: Rick Perry.
OOPS!!!
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“The undergraduate’s name: Rick Perry.”
Dormand I just can’t thank you enough for this…. it makes the picture so much clearer. I leave comments at the Fordham Institute site and the Jay P Greene blog “education is not a race” “education is not a game” but so many people consider it a “game” and come at it with this “laughed and played” and even the articles that say “Moneyball in government”
…. My nephew lives in Austin and when the crazy man flew his plane into the public building I was concerned and Scott Brown (rejected senator) said “those are the angry people who voted for me” and I will never forgive him for that ….
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At least one might find of interest this note sent to eighteen investigative journalists providing a lead on a past and probable POTUS candidate:
In those who hold high political office and those authorities and powers, both direct and indirect, there is
no more important prerequisite than critical thinking ability and good character, in my humble opinion.
Those who hold themselves out for the position of POTUS should have critical thinking and character that are beyond reproach.
You may want to look into this report on the alleged rush to judgement by the incumbent Governor of Texas.
If that intrigues you, you might want to review the Dallas Morning News coverage of the party boy grade history which lead the Texas A & M College of Veterinary Medicine to soundly reject the application for admission from one Rick Perry. Vet schools tend to be good judges of character, it seems, as they have to weed out those who appear inadequate for the gruelling four years required to earn the DVM degree.
Separately, there is much media coverage of the high portion of Texans who are in a debt collection situation as they are materially delinquent in paying their bills. I suggest that the root cause of this
red flag of societal decline is the quality of the public education delivered by Governor Rick Perry and his
cohorts who have rallied support for high stakes standardized testing, which has lead to a teaching to the test environment in Texas public schools.
Mr. Perry’s track record on teen pregnancies is also fertile grounds for you.
If you chose to do a piece on our colorful Mr. Perry, I look forward to seeing your piece and sharing it widely.
I do appreciate the fact that there are only so many pieces that you can do with the depth of due diligence you devote to each piece.
dormand
On Monday, August 4, 2014 6:03 AM, The Texas Tribune wrote:
The Texas Tribune
The Brief: Fresh Doubts About Willingham Execution
by John Reynolds | Aug. 4, 2014
Sentencing sheet of Cameron Todd Willingham
The Big Conversation
A new report raises fresh doubts about a key witness whose testimony was instrumental in securing the execution of Cameron Todd Willingham. With the forensic evidence against Willingham now discredited, this forces to the fore again whether Texas executed an innocent man.
That witness, jailhouse informer Johnny E. Webb, says now on tape that he lied on the witness stand to get his sentence reduced, according to a report by Maurice Possley of The Marshall Project published in the Washington Post. Possley also reported on newly discovered letters that show the prosecutor’s actions aimed at keeping the informer from recanting.
Possley wrote, “The letters and documents expose a determined, years-long effort by the prosecutor to alter Webb’s conviction, speed his parole, get him clemency and move him from a tough state prison back to his hometown jail. Had such favorable treatment been revealed prior to his execution, Willingham might have had grounds to seek a new trial.”
These new questions crop up as Gov. Rick Perry raises his national profile in anticipation of a possible second run for the White House. Willingham was executed in 2004, while Perry was governor. And Perry has for years defended his decision to allow the execution to go forward “despite the report of a leading forensic expert that sharply disputed the finding of arson by a Texas deputy fire marshal,” Possley wrote.
Perry described Willingham as “a monster” to reporters in 2009.
•
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The whole mindset of cost-effectiveness is so misguided when it comes to things more unknowns and variables than reliable models.
You can micromanage and set up separate R&D depts for manufacturing things like cars and major appliances, unless you are really trying to re-create the concept or something.
You can’t reliably micromanage warfare, non-routine medical care or education especially in the light of its preparation for an increasingly morphing workforce and society.
The very terminology for teachers’ ranking: ineffective, developing, effective and highly effective, presumes abilities and understandings that no one has in terms of evaluation and knowledge of constants in education and society that don’t exist. This stupidity is why we are in this Common Core mess, from the idiocy of a few making up standards for the nation to the multi-layered failure in implementation and the belief that the data from all of this can be used to micromanage, rank and fire and mined for public display and further micromanagement. Forget achievement gap, forget credibility gap. This is a break from reality. This is a form of collective psychosis.
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. . . things with more unknowns and variables . . .
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Akademos,
Cost effectiveness is an idea that is helpful in making choices. Should society invest more in Pre-K education and less in post secondary education? Should society invest more in prenatal health or hip replacements? Society can make these choices implicitly or explicitly, but the choices will have to be made.
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teachingeconomist,
Do you understand that the concept is being extended to nonsensical forms of excessive micromanagement and ranking?
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teachingeconomist,
Actually, it appears you didn’t even bother to read my post. I’m not attacking or even discussing cost-effectiveness, I’m talking about exceedingly iatrogenic practices in education.
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Well, frankly my pits should have begun something like this: “The whole corporate mindset has become so misguided in areas like education where there are far more variables and unknowns than reliable and/or static models.”
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. . . frankly my post should have begun . . .
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It’s not so much about corporate thinking/style or cost-effectiveness or elitism, it’s more about people presuming they know or can gauge far more than they do or can.
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Probably one of the most effective investments that society could make would be to emulate the highest quality universal preschooling in France and in Denmark.
If we had that, even the children from the very poorest most neglectful homes would arrive at the first day of kindergarten prepared to learn.
In any teaching environment, one of the worst situations that you can have is a large chasm in the level of preparedness among the students, whether you are dealing with kindergarteners or astronauts.
There are a massive number of parents who strongly prefer that their kids grow up in the public schools and they are willing to back the teachers by taking some of the grunt work off of the teachers’ shoulders and to offer outside enrichment programs that the teacher concurs with.
That said, if they observe the first day of kindergarten and several of the incoming students are absolutely devoid of social skills and do not even know the three basic colors, that kid is off to some non-public school, wretched as it may be. ( A lot of these other schools have more problems, mainly from control freaks, than you could imagine. )
An incredibly insightful piece on the extreme variances that kindergarten teachers face is at:
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB998511295703108758
Separately, it may be of interest to you that earlier, Congress passed a bill authorizing and funding universal preschooling for the entire country.
One reason that your taxes now go to pay an enormous amount of prison and criminal justice overhead is that that Congressional bill authorizing universal preschool was vetoed by one Richard M. Nixon.
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dormand,
You may be correct that quality universal preschool is a very efficient way for society to use resources, but there are other competitors like parenting instruction or prenatal nutrition and healthcare.
Some states, like Colorado, don’t yet have all day kindergarten. Amendment 66 was soundly defeated in the last election.
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It is possible for public policy makers to really clamp down on outlays for education, and you will see vast differences in the annual cost per students by the various states.
You will also notice that there is a direct inverse relationship between
effectiveness of schooling and outlays for prisons and for indigent healthcare.
If you are willing to spend a literal fortune over the lifetime of a nonproductive human being on criminal justice and indigent care expenditures, it is possible to educate very cheaply.
There is no better example of the adage:
“Penny wise and pound foolish”.
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Dormand,
There are vast differences in annual cost per student now. The District of Colombia spends a little over $20,000, New Jersey spends almost $17,000 and Utah spends a little under $6,500.
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And see my comment above about what Utah’s terrible per pupil expenditures result in, TE.
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By the way, Utah spends about $29,000 dollars per prisoner per year, and under $6500 per student per year. Does that make any sense to you, TE?
Click to access price-of-prisons-utah-fact-sheet.pdf
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I find the response you received from teaching economist to be somewhat patronizing. As if we didn’t know that the superintendent has to make decisions and choices between buying microscopes (or essential equipment) for the high school and primers /first readers for first grade…. I am oversimplifying the choice here but the decisions can be agonizing. I don’t think there is any form/structure/body in the universe that i would want to trust with the choice of deciding between the choice he purports are so simple. The rational model of the CPA is better for audits after the fact but as far as the process we need better governance and leadership. With waste, fraud, and abuse we can make some inroads gradually …. with corruption, graft, greed and white collar crime we need more than just the community norms ….. human beings are flawed and every profession will have the equivalent of human failure. It seems that the acumen in auditing/accounting/purchasing/PPBS is held as superior to the knowledge and experience that a teacher might have (or my example of the superintendent) is disregarded …. especially when oligarchs and plutocrats are promoting the corporation as “person”…. and as was stated in an earlier comment here the short term profit determined as the rule of the day “for now”. That is currently being tested out in our supermarket boycott in MA where the Governor says he cannot intervene because it is a family business and the employees get the “shaft” (sorry for the vernacular) and the customers are going into NH to buy bread, milk, butter etc…. so one FAMIly business holds the community hostage and isn’t that similar to Hobby Lobby? (correct me if I am wrong because I want to know the similarities and differences)
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Jeanhaverhill,
I am not claiming that these are simple choices, just saying that these are choices that must be made. Getting value for resources used should be the way all these decisions are made.
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I am well aware there are agonizing choices. I would also like to state that there has been rationing of the “educational goods” in our society for as long as I have been alive.
In addressing accountability in the schools, I would support the deliberate process of finding out “what works” and I have written before on this blog about the “What Works Clearinghouse”…. I also mentioned Henry Levin who writes serious publications about “what works” in educational technology and he always discusses cost-effectiveness. When we start to talk about evidence based practice, some extremists declare these are “death panels” and Sarah Palin’s crew takes off with rabid language to inflame (and purposely scare the elderly like my sister in Calif who is 87)…. I would like to say we could apply a rational deliberate approach to the policy arena…. I am ever hopeful but also skeptical. I admit to being in the 15% of the left of left (maybe somewhere left of Bernie sanders) but Robert Reich usually hits right on target every day….
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Jeanhaverhill,
There is rationing of all goods as long as you have been alive, not just “education goods”.
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TE–what and who determines Value?
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Who DOES determine value for the last ten or twenty years, or who SHOULD determine value? Those are two very different questions.
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Always learning,
Your question is the important one. As it stands now, the majority of voters in a district have some influence over what schools value, the majority of voters in states have some influence over what schools value, and the majority of voters in the country have some influence over what schools value. Courts also have influence as well.
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Akademos,
I might be forgiven for thinking your post was about cost effectiveness as you did begin it with the statement that “The whole mindset of cost-effectiveness is so misguided…”
I would also like to point out that the terminology for teachers rankings would seem to parallel the terminology teachers use to rank students. Do you think teachers, as people who give grades to students that potentially have a great impact on the students life, qualify as “people presuming they know or can gauge far more than they do or can.”
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TE,
You are slipping. You forgot your question mark. By now, the pinky finger on your right hand should automatically click the ? when you finish asking another one of your endless questions.
You asked, Do you think teachers, as people who give grades to students that potentially have a great impact on the students life, qualify as “people presuming they know or can gauge far more than they do or can.”
Please show your expertise in how most teachers go about grading students. For instance, how did I grade my students when I was teaching? The answer may be found in “Crazy is Normal, a classroom expose”.
I think your question reveals more of your ignorance on this issue. Did you start reading those books I recommended that might help you erase some of your ignorance about what’s going on in the corporate manufactured fake public education crises?
What do you think about people who are hired to do a specific job and do everything they can to avoid doing the work and who fool their boss while they collect their monthly salary? I’ve known a few people like that over the years—all in the private sector where I worked for fifteen of the forty-five years I worked for a living—emphases on worked.
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Students are not labeled effective or ineffective, but I’m certainly no fan of graduated ranking, especially when it involves heavily weighted high-stakes testing.
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Akademos,
Students are given an A, B, C, D, or F. You can make up whatever verbal description of those grades that you like.
Are you opposed to teacher constructed final exams in high school? They are the only high stakes exams in my state that influence grades.
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TE,
You didn’t answer my question about how children earn grades or how teachers come up with grades.
Why did you ignore what I asked?
Do you think that children shouldn’t earn grades because earning a poor letter grade for not working or studying, or a pass vs fail might hurt the child’s self esteem/feelings, and explain your yes or no answer, please?
Should the schools just give kids all pass or A’s so they feel like winners? Explain your yes or no answer please.
If all children earned an A or a pass for just showing up to warm a seat, should teachers be judged by standardized test scores? Please explain your yes or no answer.
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Lloyd,
I ask your forgiveness. In my defense, your posts are often long, rambling, and a bit off the point.
I think grades matter, I think that graduating from high school should represent some level of achievement. I have asked posters here if they could say that high school graduates could all read at the eighth grade level, but the consensus is that high school graduates can not,
If a teacher gives an A to a student who does not warrant it, the teacher debases the achievement of those students who actually deserve the grade.
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TE,
About half the states have no literacy level requirement for high school graduation. All the students have to do is take the required classes earn a set number of credits, and earn passing grades in those required classes to be eligible to graduate on time.
But in the other half of the states, there are exit exams that usually include a literacy level requirement. For instance, in California, I’ve been told the cut is 9th grade literacy level while in Texas—the wonderful GOP—set the cut level at 4th grade literacy.
Each state has its own set of ed codes and laws.
It would be nice to have a data base in on one site that listed all of this information.
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Lloyd,
Good to know that graduates of 12th grade can read at the 9th grade level in California. Perhaps the standard in Texas goes a long why in explaining why folks suspect increased high school graduation rates as being mostly about what graduating from high school means.
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But that 9th grade literacy level was measured by a bubble test. What if a student just got lucky guessing. In addition, they don’t take the test just once. They are allowed to take the exit exam several times. The schools also offer support classes during the summers and tutoring for kids who don’t pass the first time.
The California exit exam is not a one shot deal, and once a sections is passed, the child doesn’t have to take that section again.
Pass math but fail literacy, the child may take the literacy test each year, take classes in summer to boost literacy skills and go to after school trotting all year to do the same thing.
In addition, a high school graduate who only reads at a ninth grade level is not going to be college ready as NCLB and Race to the Top mandate. Imagine how unready a high school graduate would be in the states with lower literacy requri8ements for high school graduation.
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Lloyd,
Again it is good to know that 12th grade graduates in California can read at least at the 9th grade level, a bit disappointing to know that 12th grade graduates in Texas can read at least at the 4th grade level.
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But what about states that have no exit exam or literacy level?
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quoting Teaching Eonoist: “Good to know that graduates of 12th grade can read at the 9th grade level in California. Perhaps the standard ……”
human diversity is captured in numbers/numerical representation…. this is not the same as an audited financial record of accounts…… perhaps your expertise in statistics does not match your business acumen, Teaching Economist? Repeatedly on this blog Duane Swacker has suggested we all become familiar with Neil Wilson’s “psychometric fudge” articles.
I would suggest you look at a book by a U Mass Professor called “The Black Swan” (it is not a pejorative of skin color but an actual occurrence in human nature)
He indicates we need to toss out the bell curve when we are working with students…
But on another point, the tone of the messages that Teaching Economist is using on this blog merely drives people away and that is possibly his/her intention????? I suggested yesterday we check in on BATS and find some more hospitable comrades.
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quoting Teaching Economist: “your posts are often long, rambling, and a bit off the point.”
i am often accused of rambling and also called “Czarina”, “Marriage wrecker”, “curmudgeon,”, “childish”, “old” , and if it’s by an undergraduate “Dragon,”, or “deadly”…. but my friends and I have discussed this and I think I would prefer
Golem…..
When John Lewis was working in civil rights issues in the 60s he and his friends would practice taking insults and “barbs” so that when they were out in the streets they could put up with what was being thrown at them (if they were not ducking from the blows or dodging the bullets)…… so maybe you could call me the artful dodger Golem? if there s such a thing?
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Jean,
Thank you for your thoughts.
I want to focus on the hidden translation between the lines of TE’s comment. TE said, “your posts (He’s talkign about me) are often long, rambling, and a bit off the point.”
TE is wrong on several counts. First, they were not posts, they were comments. As for rambling, that’s his opinion and I don’t place much value in what TE thinks.
As for “a bit off the point”, I think TE is referring to the fact that I seldom answer his questions as he attempts to control the conversation and often changes topics with one question after another sometimes introducing several topic with these questions that weren’t the focus of the discussion that was based on a particular post.
Instead, I avoid the point TE is trying to make through TE’s ignorant questions by pointing out how ignorant TE is and suggesting TE read the books I have recommended several times—suggestions TE has totally ignored by saying nothing about those books or my suggestions as TE attempts to divert the topic with another question, or more than one question, that often reeks of ignorance of the education issue.
I’m not sure how old TE is, but I suspect from the guessed age of his children from his comments about his children that he may be in his late 30s or early 40s. That might mean he is a member of the “me” generation and might be a narcissist who thinks of himself as perfect—a man who can think no wrong—so he doesn’t need to educate himself about anything that he is ignorant of because TE, in his own mind, is not ignorant. In fact, anyone who doesn’t think like TE is ignorant to him and often a bit off the point to TE’s way of thinking.
I suspect that to TE, the world revolves around him like the ancients thought the universe revolved around a flat earth.
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te,
I’m more realist than purist. There are plenty of necessary evils in this imperfect world. Policies that exacerbate that or that simply do more harm than good are obviously bad when there are clearly more benign alternatives. And I can’t say any more or less about this. In fact, I think I’m coming close to saying absolutely nothing.
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Akademos,
Labeling students is a necessary evil but labeling teachers is not? I suppose that depends on if you are a student or a teacher.
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quoting Akademos: “Policies that exacerbate that or that simply do more harm than good are obviously bad when there are clearly more benign alternatives. And I can’t say any more or less about this. In fact, I think I’m coming close to saying absolutely nothing.”
AKAEMOS: you are right about the harmful policies but please don’t give up on us we need you…… (have you looked in on any BATS?)
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te,
The attention to labeling is due to the inappropriate methods being used and the fact that the terms belie a lot of the wrongheaded thinking that created and applies those methods.
But are you arguing that since we rank students who are radically evolving and being sorted in all sorts of ways, into clubs, majors, schools, programs, etc., we should label art, artists, doctors, lawyers, commenters and comments — everything and everyone — A, B, C, D and F?
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Akademos,
I think it likely that every lawyer and doctor has been ranked by teachers. More importantly some potential lawyers and doctors we’re ranked by teachers and found wanting, so never were admitted to college and professional school to begin with.
Artists are generally less dependent on teacher evaluation. Whoppe Goldberg, for example, never made it through high school, but her talents did not require the approval of teachers to be noticed.
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Akademos,
Doctors and Lawyers were judged many times by teachers. Those found wanting did not become doctors and lawyers.
Artists need not satisfy teachers. Whoopee Goldberg’s talents were clear to anyone who saw her, despite never graduating from high school.
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te,
Ye seem to be off your own tangential point.
You know, many doctors, lawyers and professors are rated online, not just by comments, but by averaged ratings in set categories. Imagine if that were to directly impact their careers.
Imagine if criticism by experts and the general public were set to rubrics to churn out A’s thru F’s for established artists.
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Akademos,
I certainly think that the general public does rate artists. The unit of account is dollars. The same is true for lawyers and doctors. Unlike public school teachers, there is no law that compels a person to patronize a particular lawyer or doctor.
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te,
Yes, supply and demand and favor or disfavor in the arts or services is always there. That’s apart from the effects of unnecessary and/or excessive labeling. And to all a good night!
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And worst of all would be knowingly invalid rating.
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sometimes the details seem to be “picayune” that we focus on when the real issues are elsewhere ….. if you will allow this intrusion, I think the real issue is better expressed in the current boycott at our grocery store (the only one available to my city) but I like the way that Robert Reich writes about it.
from Robert Reich’s daily page: “The fight over “Market Basket” reminds me that 60 years ago, corporations existed for all their stakeholders – not just shareholders, but also employees, customers, and the public at large. This changed in the 1980s when corporate raiders began mounting unfriendly takeovers of companies that could deliver higher shareholder returns by abandoning other stakeholders. Raiders (and many economists) argued stakeholder capitalism had allowed companies to employ workers they didn’t need, pay them too much, and become too tied to their communities. They assured us that shareholder capitalism, by contrast, would move economic resources to where they’re most productive, fueling economic growth. Since then, it’s been assumed corporations exist only to maximize shareholder returns. But here’s what shareholder capitalism has got us: Declining real wages for most Americans, growing economic insecurity, and abandoned communities, combined with record corporate profits, stratospheric CEO pay, and a financial casino on Wall Street (whose near meltdown imposed collateral damage on most Americans). ”
seems to me it is the same issue we are struggling with when Rupert Murdoch/J. Klein or PEARSON/Ar Duncan are moving the agenda along ….. whatever governmental structures are going to be in place for the grandkids I would like to maintain traditional thoughts about “shareholders” and not be reduced to untermenschen.
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I agree that to say this is very political in origin and motivation is unterschtatement. But the reasons bad policy is bad is often because in the details are truly awful and self-defeating consequences or things/cases/situations that render it utterly nonsensical. And it all ultimately must filter through to, if not directly impact, the kids, our children, their futures and the future of their world.
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Lloyd,
In states without exit exams it is difficult to know the reading level required for a student to graduate from 12th grade. It likely differs from one district to another, perhaps it differs from one high school to another or even from one required class to another, depending on the teacher.
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There are two types of views on education: 1) those that view education as an investment, 2) those that view education as a mere line item cost. Investments require some amount of risk and variability of outcome. The idea is a return and utility. But not all return is measurable, not all utility is monetary. Investing in education requires societal, delayed gratification. But business long ago abandoned long term planning. At least were I spent my adult life, even 6 month plans were a running joke. Hence, while teachers view learning as a long termed investment in the person, seeking stability, The Reformers are in it for the here and now. So, they want immediate, artificial results. All expenses are variable, all teachers are expendable. “Cost effective” means indiscriminant cuts regardless of negative results years down the road. Metrics are viewed as the end goal. Solutions are quick, simple, and obvious to The Reformers. Humanity is replaced with graphs and formulas.
Education must remain a counter balance to our instant gratification, 140 character tweet, gimmie now society. Education should be a well anchored pylon to the wild currents of fads, “not invented here”, politically motivated reforms. Education should be deliberate and evidence based, standing on the shoulders of giants – not knocking them down and stomping on them. Education must remain organic, chaotic, and undecidable, but exploring the world in rational, incremental steps rather than scorched earth churn.
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It’s lonely out there for those of us who view education as both an investment and a line-item cost.
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When I read disparaging remarks about the business world, it concerns me that individuals would speak out before performing even the most basic of research.
I will grant you that within the business world are slime creatures that are solely short term focused and care less about the long run.
One example is the former CEO of Polaroid Corporation, in the shadow of MIT.
Its CEO was contemplating how he might maximize his annual bonus, and determined that getting early retirements offered the best spike in his CEO Bonus.
He announced a lucrative buy out for employee early retirements. Most of the 20% who really made the difference at Polaroid jumped at the buyout and left for other companies.
Without the guidance of the 20% who really understood the key results areas, Polaroid Corporation soon failed, with all employees losing their jobs.
US companies suffer from two separate disadvantages to companies based elsewhere:
a ) Wall Street analysts and many institutional investors for some reason are married to the concept of maximizing continuing streams of ever-increasing earnings per share quarterly reports. This is unnatural, as any operating company is going to have ebbs and flows in its earnings due to the many factors well beyond its control.
b ) So called “compensation experts” and cohorts hand picked by the CEO to sit on his board ( when a Y chromosome-less CEO abuses this also, I shall be more equal in my fault finding, but guys are by far the leading culprits here), find that 500X is a good and fair compensation package for the company, regardless of whether the company met its objectives, while European CEOs might be earning 150X ( X being a gal/guy on the line actually making the widgets the company sells. ), it gets troublesome.
The “compensation experts” know that if they do not recommend a very lofty number, that they will not often be retained for consultation. The CEO cited above tends to sit on the boards of those who are CEOs of other companies in addition to serving as a board member. It is a “you scratch my back, and then I will scratch yours” scenario.
There are great companies who know that value is built only by retaining both the customer and the employees and treating both very fairly. The Warren Buffett companies build enormous value over time, as Buffett could care less about quarterly results. Bain Capital and TPG Capital both build enormous value from focusing on customer satisfaction and developing and empowering employees.
The Tuck School at Dartmouth College has a long term project which studies the correlation between customer satisfaction and increases in market capitalization of a company’s stock.
Management is management. You will find great and you will find absolutely egregious in all categories of organizations, whether they be businesses, schools, colleges, governments, NGOs, or charities of any sort.
Unfortunately, there is a tendency for authoritarians to trump the good work of excellent managers. I wish that it were not so, but there are far too many cases in which authoritarian managers have undermined and obliterated the organizational effectiveness put in place earlier by really great managers.
The City of Dallas is a great example. It was once known as “The City That Works” after Texas Instruments CEO J. Erik Jonnson was drafted to serve also as Mayor of Dallas. Jonnson laid out a plan tor the Goals for Dallas, got input from 100,000 in the city and had a very bottom up program that focused on long term quality of life initiatives for the City, including having the best children’s summer reading program in the nation.
Life was great for all in Dallas for years. Then an authoritarian former Marine sergeant John Ware was appointed city manager. The media called him “my way or the highway Ware”. Excellent professionals in city management left and the city deteriorated.
Ware announced to a Dallas City Council meeting that he was subordinating all other responsibilities to focus on getting a new sports arena that contained luxury suites built.
Dallas had a perfectly good sports area, ReUnion Arena, but it did not contain the uber profitable luxury suites that would increase the value of the hockey team that played in the area and was owned by buyout guy Tom Hicks.
American Airlines Center was built after most city functions were put on the back burner.
John Ware accepted a job as President of a Tom Hicks owned company.
Recently it was discovered that the Domestic Violence unit of the Dallas Police Department had stacks of unprocessed files piled up in an unused interview room in police headquarters. Many had been there so long that the Statute of Limitations had run on the cases, giving a free ride to the perpetrator.
That would never have happened under the realm of Dallas City Mayor J. Erik Jonnson.
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Dormand,
I would blame Polaroid’s late entry into digital photography as the major reason why the company failed.
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That is a contributing factor.
If you had talked to Westinghouse Scholar Bob Regan, who is responsible for $1 Billion worth of Polaroid film being used as raw material for the ID Cards he designed for foreign governments and businesses, you would know that the company rapidly sank after these incredibly valuable human resources walked out the door.
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Dormand,
When was the last time you purchased a film camera?
I don’t think there was any management decision that would make manufacturing film and film cameras anything other than a tiny niche industry today.
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quote: “The District of Colombia spends a little over $20,000, New Jersey spends almost $17,000 and Utah spends a little under $6,500.” this is a fact within a context…
In Worcester County MA it takes two parents working at the low income jobs just to pay rent…. that doesn’t include their clothes, transportation, shoes for the kids etc….
Where I live my housing expenses are about 1/2 of what I would pay in Boston.
In the “upscale” affluent districts the family pays $3200 /month for a 2 bedroom apartment.
The real estate people love this…. they “hype” the scores in the district where the million dollar homes are built and the families take out interest only loans to get into those communities….
Would it be reasonable to draw the inference that some cities/towns/districts do show “vast” differences in cost per pupil given the economics of the living conditions ? I guess I wouldn’t want to pay $3200 / month if they could shut my water off at will….. My neighbors go over the MA/NH border to buy liquor, luxuries and I refuse to even buy an ice cream there … you get what you pay for in taxes and NH is not as supportive of special education students; they use the Boston hospitals while they fight the ideas of the affordable care act. Because Kelly Ayotte is the only New England senator who would not vote for background checks on guns I refuse to shop in NH for anything…
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Jeanheverhill,
All facts have contexts. In this case, I was responding to poster dormand who stated “.and you WILL SEE vast differences in the annual cost per students by the various states” (emphasis is mine).
My point, of course, is that some states spend double, if you include the District of Colombia, triple, what other states spend per student now.
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Utah teachers can qualify for food stamps and free lunch for their children if they have three or more children.
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The GM case with the ignition switches is only one example of how some or many corporate bean counters think. For instance the Ford Pinto case where several Ford company memos presented as evidence during the civil trials revealed that remedies to the problem were discussed, with the conclusion that to shut down production and retool would be too expensive. Most damaging to Ford were memos found and published by author/researcher Mark Dowie in the muckraking magazine Mother Jones that detailed a cost analysis of corporate liability in the event of having to compensate crash victims.
Experts calculated the value of a human life at around $200,000, while a serious burn injury was worth about $67,000. Using an estimate of 180 deaths and 180 serious burns, someone put on paper that the cost to redesign and rework the Pinto’s gas tank would cost close to $137 million, while possible liability costs worked out to around $49 million.
I don’t think it will take a PhD to figure out that this corporate thinking in the manufactured, fake school movement is alive and evil and probably is built into the DNA of corporate management.
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I wanted to add this experience to what Lloyd is saying here…. the chairman of our school board worked for Arthur D. Little and Raytheon …. he was instrumental in the discussions of asbestos and their rationale was similar to what Lloyd describes I don’t have the exact details but the gist is “only so many % of people die of the asbestos and they die much later in life as the cancers develop” so we don’t have to take that into account. He also was in Iran training them on military management BEFORE the ayatollah took over and before that he had teachers who could speak Arab going into the middle east to train military (not just Iran)……. I respected him for his knowledge and acumen and as a person but we had many discussions about what is a moral imbecile (sorry for the pejorative, old fashioned term here) when nixon was president…..
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This kind of thinking is built into the DNA of human beings. At some point in an Intro to Economics course, the example of speed limits will come up as an illustration of cost-benefit analysis. People will usually find the idea that human life has a maximum value distasteful. People also will usually agree with the statement that there are too many deaths from auto accidents. People also usually won’t dispute that the likelihood of death decreases as collision speeds decrease. But propose a maximum speed limit of 50 mph, or 30 mph, or 15 mph, and people will start to disagree, because it turns out that they do, in fact, think that sometimes, it’s not worth the cost (in dollars, or effort, or time, or convenience) to save human lives. They just don’t do it consciously or with much specificity.
The Pinto-type cases are upsetting not simply because they involve measuring the value of life, but because the specificity of the analysis is gruesome to behold.
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FLERP!,
Whoever taught your Intro Micro course certainly did a good job.
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Lloyd,
It is not just “corporate” thinking. Looking at the trade off between resources used and a statistical human life is routinely done in government and in our own lives. About 35,000 Americans died in traffic accidents in 2013. That could be reduced if we spent more straightening roads and eliminating all the existing dangers in the road system, but it is deemed too expensive. Even better would be to reduce the maximum speed on any public road to 5 miles an hour. It would be very costly to do this in terms of travel time, but it would eliminate most, perhaps all, of those deaths. Is it worth the price to eliminate those deaths?
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Teaching Economist-
Get the Germans to buy off on that and then we will discuss it.
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dormand,
I think the Germans have already decided that it is not worth slowing down to save those lives.
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You will not see actual accountability being pervasive in corporate America until there is a a reasonable chance of corporate executives spending some time in federal prison.
And by that, I mean the actual Greybar Hotel, not the home confinement that plea of guilty to federal mail fraud Rick Hendrick got.
Mr. Hendrick is the top dog of both the top NASCAR auto racing team and a massive chain of new car dealerships.
You say you would like to buy a car from an admitted mail fraud felon?
Just look up Hendrick Automotive Group and make your choice. Our family bought six cars from Honda Cars of McKinney before I had awareness that the owner plead guilty to federal mail fraud in 1998.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Hendrick
Scant days before the end of the Clinton Administration, the B of A Foundation made a mid six figure contribution to the William J. Clinton
Presidential Library.
By co-incidence, shortly after the check cleared, Clinton signed a Full and Complete Presidential Pardon for one Rick Hendrick.
Being in the 1% isn’t everything, but it does have its advantages at times.
Incidentally the same entirely co-incidental events relieved notorious international tax fugitive Marc Rich of threats of incarceration.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Rich
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Information on expenditures per student can be very misleading and make some jurisdictions appear to offer excellent educations to the naive.
If one ranks the expenditures per student of the Los Angeles Unified School District against other school districts across the nation, one might surmise without due diligence that they offer the best in education.
If a significant portion of the allocations of budget dollars go to other than pre-K, teachers, librarians, arts instructors, and college advisers one can see a lot of tax dollars spent yet still
have mediocre student outcomes.
Many school districts prefer costly administrative offices, high salaried central office staff specialists, multi million dollar football stadia ( yes, Allen, Texas Eagles with your $65 million stadium that is unsafe for use due to poor construction practices and lax inspections, this is your life. )
When the coaches compensation dwarfs the pay of the most respected teachers, you have a problem, even if the teachers do not say one word.
The students will be relying upon what the teachers develop in their ability to analyze, creatively think through and communicate for the next half century.
An infinitesimal portion of the football team will get to play in college, and as many will get offers to be astronauts as NFL or NNA players. Those lucky few will be gone in three years, as will all of the big bonus dollars they got paid due to the various enticements that pro athletes face. They will then become bartenders, bouncers and cab drivers because it was not necessary for them to crack a book in school, because the were athletes.
The effectiveness in schooling comes from the teachers, the librarians, the college advisers and the arts instructors.
The big expenditures tend to be absorbed elsewhere. So take expenditures per student with a grain of salt unless you are able to dig into the numbers making up the totals.
Don’t expect many schools to make it easy for you to access easily comprehended financial information.
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But per pupil expenditures can really help. I make less in real dollars than I did in 2008 (cutting of teacher workdays and no step increase in two years), yet I will have NINETY more students this year than I did in 2008. It would really help if Utah upped per pupil expenditures.
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A special treat for everyone who loves to laugh at Rick Perry:
http://www.branchtoon.com/cartoon/rick-perry-new-improved-2016
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quote: “I’m giving examples of why cost effectiveness is not what the goal of education should be.”
hold firm to your ideas and don’t give in …. this is where the discussion needs to take place for the future (our grandkids etc)
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