Even Conservative Texans Know that K12 is a Hoax

19 Comments Post your own or leave a trackback: Trackback URL

1. immovablemylifeuncomfortable says:

   May 21, 2014 at 1:26 pm

   I can imagine motivated students plugging away through mounds of material and learning it quickly. I’ve seen those students. With that said, learning a language, including math isn’t a matter of getting through material nor about simply passing a final.
   Many of my students have been homeschoolers who want alternatives. The truth is that some can manage on-line work; but for the ones that come to me for assistance, on-line is more drudgery than going to what seems to them a prison-like campus.
   On-line education holds promise, but there’s a lot of garbage out there and hardly worth the words to talk about their failings, let alone our tax dollars to fund them!

   Reply
2. Barry Elliott says:

   May 21, 2014 at 4:03 pm

   THE THEORY BEHIND COMPULSORY SCHOOL ATTENDANCE

   Compulsory school attendance has as a foundational principle an assumption that not all parents will voluntarily submit to a legal or social expectation to send their children to school and that not all children who are sent to school will attend and participate willingly. It derives from a culture and time that were significantly different from today’s world.
   A corollary of these assumptions is that some children are more inclined to succeed in academic endeavors or find them satisfying and rewarding, and that coercion is essential to keep some optimal number engaged or involved at some acceptable level. Further it presumes that some children will inevitably fail to attend or will become disengaged psychologically and some will be forced into a status of truant, conscientious objector, misfit, handicapped, or defiant miscreant. These disagreeable realities have been clearly evident and a profound distraction for parents and “educators” since the first school attendance law was passed many decades ago.
   Resistance to naked force and rejection of external control and domination are givens in human psychology and politics. In any system whatsoever that relies on law and mandatory requirements which carry a significant penalty for non-compliance, there must be an authority structure built in; there will be competition with winners and losers, and there will be those who for a variety of reasons either withdraw physically and pay a price for their absence, or who withdraw psychologically and suffer certain negative consequences that may be even more devastating. There will be blame and shame. Fault will necessarily accrue to the individuals who are unwilling or unable to meet established standards or demands.
   There is no escaping the fact that supporters of compulsory attendance are ultimately shoring up a system that accepts the existence of “throw-away children” or failures and rejects. If one believes in using coercion to fill seats in classrooms, one implicitly accepts that there will be a painful cost to those who do not occupy those seats. One should recognize what is less obvious; that all of us pay a dear price for a stratified grouping of young people that has little or nothing to do with education and everything to do with attendance, obedience, compliance, and acquiescence.
   Grouping that isn’t organic or based on self-selection must always favor those who start out with certain advantages and privileges. Grades have never been about evaluating the acquisition of knowledge. Grades are for confirming privilege and approved behavior. Knowledge cannot be measured like so much grain, water, or crude oil. Grades are strictly for placing students within a behavior and performance-based hierarchy (performance of trivial and less than relevant exercises) and measuring how well they have been conditioned and controlled.
   Well-meaning reform minded educators and others have had fantasies about finding the magic fix or formulae for overcoming the problems that are inherent in authority-based systems since the beginning, with negligible success (see Tolstoy’s essays on education, 1862). Protected pockets can be temporarily established or carved out for tiny minorities of fortunate students, but the pathology associated with hierarchical authoritarian systems, especially where vulnerable children and teachers without autonomy are involved must of necessity rear its ugly head in every other circumstance.
   Not every child can be exceptional. Not every child can become a genius, brilliant, or wealthy and successful. However, the system we put in place should not be a system for sorting children out arbitrarily. Incompetence, servility, and mediocrity should not be rewarded by the powers that be. Power should not be given to bureaucrats who have a need to validate their existence by measuring the immeasurable and justifying their performance based on ludicrous standards, conformity with official dictates, and meaningless or frivolous accomplishments.
   Those who hope for the impossible are doomed to disappointment and failure. If one presumes to be fighting for children, yet is willing to surrender a substantial number of them to profound neglect and disillusionment, one cannot be claim to be a legitimate advocate. Which children are we willing to sacrifice to the god of schooling and indoctrination? Those who are stubborn? Those who are independent? Those who are not academically oriented? Those whose parents don’t value schooling? Those who have emotional, physical, or other problems? When will we stop kidding ourselves? When will people like Diane Ravitch stop advocating for failed traditional institutions, instead of for the innocent victims of laws and myths that create unworkable conditions and institutions?
   Far fewer of the fervent prayers of the religious faithful are granted than end with disappointment. Yet, people keep praying and believing. Typically unanswered prayers lead to greater resolve and stronger faith, self-blame, and rationalizations for rejection and even for major tragedies. Religion and dogma go hand in hand, and beliefs held since childhood are hard to relinquish. But, religions often conflict and in many cases they contradict each other or their deities are incompatible or hostile to each other. One has to choose. The cult of schooling has a very similar problem. Disappointment has not led to realistic assessments or any notable change. The true believers who find themselves in conflict with others would rather fight than switch. Blind faith leads down treacherous paths and distracts from the discovery of real life solutions and truth. Compulsory attendance is inimical and insulting to children.
   K12 and the myriad privatization schemes are predictable and inevitable given the current paradigm. It’s all a piece with trying to define for children what is good and desirable and then shoving it down their throats by whatever means necessary.

   Reply
   • Ellen T Klock says:

     May 21, 2014 at 10:25 pm

     Barry – do you think that K12 is the answer to compulsory attendance? In my mind the child still has to “show up”, maybe not at a school, but at a computer terminal.

     In a perfect world children would explore the world and adults would teach them as the need arised. This is not a perfect world and education needs to be deliberate and not accidental.

     The question is – what form should education take in the future?

     Right now the government is pushing for one size fits all.

     Many of us realize, through our experiences both as teachers and parents, that each child is unique and what works for one is a disaster for another.

     Before we can address the issue of mandatory attendance, we need to secure a form of education that addresses individual needs. I believe that if we come up with a creative, supportive system, the attendance issue will be a moot point because the children will WANT to come to school.

     Right now we are headed in the opposite direction.

     Reply
     • Barry Elliott says:

       May 22, 2014 at 11:05 am

       Ellen,
       I am no less opposed to privatization than anyone else. I believe that schools can and do typically provide valuable services. However, you make the classic mistake that underlies all of the common confusion about schooling and education. You speak about education and school as if they are synonymous and indistinguishable. That is a fatal error. Education can NEVER, EVER, – DID I SAY NEVER be mass produced, by definition.
       The question you ask about education in the future is the wrong question. Ignoring or denying the profound failures of the past is self-delusion and the ultimate in irresponsibility. The question to ask is why so many children have been harmed so much and for so long, in many cases irreparably, as a consequence of their school experience, and if school as we know it can somehow be modified now to actually provide a service that can legitimately lead to education for more than a fortunate few.
       If you aren’t part of the solution, you are part of the problem. The other question one should be asking if they have failed to oppose compulsory attendance laws and their pernicious effects is; “How many of those young people that have recently been overwhelmed with frustration, guilt, shame, or anger and resentment and have left school only to abuse drugs, to take low-level minimum wage jobs, to commit status offenses or crimes, to flounder in life and relationships, or to in far too many instances die, am I personally responsible for because I wasn’t willing to face the hard reality?
       The canard about living in a perfect world is nonsensical and dishonest (albeit not intentionally on your part, I’m sure). Expecting the vast majority of students to attend any public institution without becoming demoralized, anxiety-prone, less intelligent and creative, cynical, or anti-social is not somehow utopian or unrealistic in a civilized society.
       Children do indeed need to be present to learn and thrive. An unacceptable majority are disengaged for much of the time, however. The average teacher enters the profession with a firm and largely valid conviction that they have learned a great deal and have much to offer to students. Most are dedicated and I am well aware of the thrill of being able to impart knowledge or wisdom to a child. The mistake that we have made as a society is in not understanding that the child must ALWAYS and invariably take the initiative. The child must ALWAYS at least have the opportunity to generate his or her own questions and to discover answers without undue prodding or “expert” assistance. You said it yourself; “…each child is unique and what works for one is a disaster for others.”
       For a couple of centuries and more, we have gotten that same cart before the horse. Mandatory attendance will NEVER be a moot point. Mandatory attendance IS the point. It is beyond impossible to secure a “form of education that addresses individual needs” as long as education is confused and conflated with school or with forced attendance anywhere. For many decades there are and have been innumerable examples of “supportive and creative systems”. The educational wheel was invented a very long time ago. Aristotle and Socrates weren’t even the first innovators. Stop kidding yourself. The element of coercion, which requires an authoritarian framework and an unwieldy bureaucracy, along with uniformity and universality is the poison that kills the patient. It’s not rocket science.
       Barry

     • Ellen T Klock says:

       May 22, 2014 at 1:52 pm

       Barry, there is a lot of truth to what you say.

       And our current education system works for about half the students.

       That leaves another half – some students who are just adequate and the rest who our floundering or disengaged.

       And compulsory attendance won’t change things for the latter.

       So, I agree, we need to try other models. And we need to change the way we evaluate their progress.

       Some of those alternative educational models that were formerly “working” have been discontinued due to the NCLB test scores which didn’t measure the correct goals.

       By looking for standardized results, the resulting simplified exams only glimpse a portion of what the child has to offer. And more of the same will not produce better readers or mathematicians.

       So, we are not exactly on the same page, but we are definitely in the same book. Probably the same chapter.

     • Barry Elliott says:

       May 22, 2014 at 5:41 pm

       Ellen,
       I’d like to think we are at least in the same book or universe. But, once again, you are talking about “our current education system”. We don’t have an education system. We have a mis-education system, or a mal-education system, or a re-education system in the same tradition as the communist re-education paradigms. Santa Claus doesn’t exist. The Easter Bunny is a fiction. The tooth fairy died when you turned eight. You cannot have a “system” for educating human beings. I didn’t stutter. YOU CAN’T HAVE A SYSTEM FOR EDUCATING PEOPLE IN THE REAL WORLD.
       It’s time to grow up and live in the real world. It isn’t going to happen. Give up on the fantasy and the impossible dream. It isn’t about “models”, reform, strategies, theories, philosophies, or which fad is superior. Evaluating progress is a school thing and an academic thing and has practically nothing at all to do with education. No one has the capability or the right to evaluate another person’s education except under very limited circumstances and with extremely narrow parameters. Education is personal, private, irreproducible, immeasurable, and idiosyncratic. With respect to employment and academics, one can only gauge approximately and predict future performance based on arbitrary and indefinite criteria, using experience and tests for guesstimation.
       It is easy enough to identify with teachers who have established careers on the perceived need students have for their instruction, guidance, love, respect, and wisdom. Few of us have not ever had one teacher that we loved and revered and will always remember with great fondness. But, the child’s universe and his education must not revolve around or be dependent upon any other individual or series of individuals or group of people, regardless of quality or intelligence. The child must create and own his or her education. Teachers are merely facilitators and sources of information and advice. I hate to deflate anyone’s ego or to devalue anyone’s contributions, but adults must learn to place their influence and skills in the proper context and perspective. Regardless, school is not the appropriate environment for education and coercion precludes the creation of an education that is optimal or of maximum benefit. Those who become educated while simultaneously attending school do so in spite of not because of their attendance.
       Barry

3. Ellen T Klock says:

   May 21, 2014 at 10:13 pm

   K12 is advertising online when I watch my soaps. They say 94% of the parents are happy with the school – public school so it’s at no cost.

   How can they get away with the lies?

   When the government should interfere they don’t. When they should leave well enough alone, that’s when they dig their heels in.

   Reply
4. Barry Elliott says:

   May 24, 2014 at 1:42 pm

   Ellen,
   More than once friends and others have informed me that my tone is too often too strident or that I am too brutally frank, critical, preachy, or judgmental. I do not deny that my passion is extreme or that I have a bit of a messianic complex when it comes to the subjects of education and school (two very different subjects, I am compelled to point out for the 99 thousandth time). This is not an apology or an attempt to pull back from my statements. I don’t particularly want anyone to take my “attacks” too personally, yet all this definitely is about personal responsibility and abandoning a childlike propensity to rely on a positive attitude and blind optimism, while Rome goes up in flames.
   Diane wrote an entire book that, according to the brief description she gave me was apparently devoted to debunking the steady stream of harsh criticisms of the public schools by various authors, such as Colin Greer, who wrote, The Great School Legend”. Greer, along with a raft of other highly critical writers and educators claimed in effect that the grand mythology that has elevated public schooling to the status of a miraculous life changing institution for improving the welfare and the lives of millions of immigrants and ordinary poor and middle-class citizens is belied by decades of repression, mediocrity, and failure, with few exceptions. She has maintained a great confidence in schooling and public schools in particular to remedy myriad social problems and to prepare vast numbers of young people for a stable productive life in this imperfect world of ours.
   I have sincerely classified Diane as a hero for her steadfast devotion to the cause and her self-sacrifice and profound concern for children and our nation’s future. I know that she is a true believer. Nevertheless, the forest and the trees have to be seen in appropriate perspectives. If we are not honest with ourselves and if we fail to see the necessary distinctions between training and education, or indoctrination and education, or schooling and education, we are betraying those very children. There is science, with fact and empirical evidence, and valid statistical data, and then there is nostalgia, blind faith, emotional sentiment, and rigid adherence to tradition and mythology. Refusing to give up the latter for the former is pathological and dangerous.
   We can debate about how many children are harmed by their school experiences, or whether or not other influences are more harmful, and what the best ideas and philosophies are for reducing the level of harm or transforming negative experiences into beneficial experiences, until we are blue in the face. No one can be faulted for exploring alternatives and the theories behind them. However, after several generations of talk and experimentation and billions spent on research, it is utterly stupid and neurotic to pretend that more navel contemplation or repetitive research is going to uncover the Rosetta Stone of education.
   Training young people to be good students, citizens, and workers is a valid function for a public institution. Enculturation and indoctrination of children are legitimate activities if they are voluntary and balanced with other activities. Even instruction or induction relative to certain socially acceptable behavioral habits and morals may be what parents want for their children. But, education is on a different plane and has a radically different character.
   The one thing that we know from centuries of literature and observation is that coercion and authoritarian domination are inimical with respect to the healthy psychological development of children, whether education is the goal, or whether there is some other non-military or non-bare survival goal. What Diane and so many others have failed to acknowledge is that laws mandating attendance lead to authoritarian structures and unworkable bureaucracies and these factors stand like the Great Wall of China between us and doing whatever it is that we want to do to make life better for children, parents, teachers, and people of all ages and descriptions.
   Standing up for victims is admirable. However, refusing to join the adults in recognizing that children have been victimized by generations of abusive and destructive paternalism and dominance is unforgivable. The evidence is overwhelming. One has to have one’s eyes glued shut not to see the damage wrought by bad schooling over the decades, and blaming it on the lack of funds, poor administration, bad curricula or methodologies, etc., without admitting the influence of power and corruption implemented via bad laws is insane.
   Barry

   Reply
5. Ellen T Klock says:

   May 24, 2014 at 11:42 pm

   Barry, we have spoken before on this topic, and while I am not unsympathetic to many of your viewpoints, I ultimately cannot accept your premise.

   There was a time when attendance was not mandatory. In fact, school was not mandatory. Only the elite educated their children. The rest of the country might be exposed to reading, writing, and ciphering. The slaves weren’t even allowed to attend school. It was literally against the law. In this way, the privileged could control the masses. They could make money on the backs of the common folk.

   So, do you want to go back to a time when the general population had a fourth grade education with some graduating from eighth grade and a select few making it through high school and maybe to college?

   Do you want to limit education to the privileged white male with minorities and women on the sidelines?

   Do you believe that a woman’s place should be in the home, barefoot and pregnant?

   Because ultimately a poor educational system is a discriminatory system.

   And do you know why the third world countries are considered developing countries? Because of a lack of educational opportunities, especially for women. They don’t have compulsory attendance policies. Unfortunately, very few children have the time to go to school, they are too busy surviving. And many who can, choose not to (especially the girls).

   So Barry, I am not accusing you of promoting a two class system of haves and have nots. What I do want is for you to clarify what your solution is to this problem. If we do not require children to go to school, what is the alternative? If you plan on re shaping public education, how do you envision the end result?

   Many of us on this blog thrived as students. We were exemplary in high school and college. Some of us graduated with honors. Others had to struggle, but did make it through within the confines of the current system. As parents, some of us had children who were out of place. We searched for alternatives, even if relief was found in charter schools.

   What do you know that we don’t?

   I’ve heard your theories and even agree with some of your cases in point. Now give me some solutions.

   This is your passion – if you want us on board you have to convince us that your vision will work for a better society.

   Right now, with CCSS, the time is ripe for a change.

   Here is your chance!

   Reply
   • Barry Elliott says:

     May 25, 2014 at 1:04 pm

     Ellen,
     I don’t know when I’ll have a chance to address your specific issues, but will do so at my earliest opportunity. meanwhile, I found a message in my e-mail that you might find enlightening relative to why I consider school to be destructive of education and a horrible substitute for organic living. As I’ve said, school may have valid purposes, but education isn’t one of them and to the extent that it can be useful and beneficial, it MUST be STRICTLY voluntary for all, especially the underclasses. I don’t recall where this writer is located. His English is tortured and confusing in places, however it would be well worth your while to try to make sense of it. BTW, making sense is what this is really all about. We understand the world via our senses. We are grounded in a physical universe and all learning and knowledge are embodied – that is comprehensible through our bodies. Sitting at a desk concentrates learning in the posterior.
     I hope you will find this thought provoking, From our work with children during the past three years at Sadhanavillage school (www.sadhanavillageschool.org) we have come to someconclusions that could be of use to people who are truly concernedabout the overall development of the child in a natural manner.We are seeing potential for fresh research to understand the integralnature of the child, integral nature of the content and the waycognitive structures/ process is formed.One assumption is that children wants to understand the real world,real contexts of where ever they are located and they are alsoequipped to understand this within their socio cultural frame work.The real world consists of people, natural and social processes,materials, products etc. Which means the children wants to know whatthe world looks like (FORM), feels like (MATERIALITY), what and howthey could be in the world (PROCESS/ PHENOMENON).Learning is a process that is done by all living beings – likereproduction and digestion- and sustenance of life seems to be itspurpose. These are governed by inherited biological rules and theexternal conditions. Naturally the process and content of learningwould also be related to this. This is the primary aspect of learning.The primary cognitive source is the real world as it is and not itsexplanation, primary cognitive process are dictated by the biologicalaspects.Modern schooling is dealing with secondary cognitive source and hencesecondary cognitive tool- reason. Both are in fact good forcommunication and is of no use in primary cognition.Modernity misleads the child in every way by masking the real worldfrom the child. The real world/ natural phenomenon are removed fromthe experience of the child and is replaced by engineered andconstructed reality(physical and conceptual) and then the childlearns that as the reality of the world.The child now only see young people as almost everyone is lookingyoung by cosmetically changing them. Natural phenomenon of aging isremoved from the experience of the child. Old age homes, home forother types of handicapped also is very harmful for the child as theseare opportunities for development of sensitivity, care etc. Even theword- handicapped is removed and replaced with differently abled!Modern solution is quite hilarious. they have invented storytelling toinculcate values. Guess what the child learns from this. They alsolearn to tell stories on values.The cyclic, regenerative aspect of life is removed from the experienceof modern childhood. They only see the end product and never theprocess. It is natural then to have more nouns among modern literatepeople where as the language of non literate have more verbs.Child hardly ever see processes natural or even man made as they aredealing only with the finished product in modernity. Starting withtoys, food – milk, rice, wheat, pulses, vegetables, fruits, meat etc.Children are not aware that meat comes from killing animals or milketc. They do not see the connection between the water they use andrain. This is a long list. This causes total alienation from natureand processes of life.Toy is the best example of misleading and schools does it mostefficiently by removing the primary cognitive source and replacing itwith language. So children master the word and not the world.Why to be in the world, How to be in the world and What to do in theworld are three fundamental questions that can be used as basicpremise in the explorations. Why relates to value, how relates tobeauty and what relates to the reality. So all actions are necessarilyrooted in value, beauty and truth.The way world functions or laws that govern the functioning of nature/life is what is known as science, how one lives is the beauty aspect,the action which is being carried out in harmony, in rythm. Languageis the description and the way language is structured is the way lifehappens. In that sense the grammer is connected to the existenceitself. may be mathematics is also integral aspect of life- themeasurable, quantifyable….The child also follows the same laws of nature and may be knowledge isreally about awakening the child to its nature itself. The nature andlife happening around reflects, the child absorbs, imitates to reminditself of its potential……..School on the other hand deflects and mask the real world from thechild. Child nevertheless absorbs and imitates as that is the natureof the child and hence learns the very structure of school itself, ofthe text, of the teacher etc. Digital source structures the child’sbeingness to its structure, to its nature.Research possibilities based on our observation.Please see the link for further deails https://www.academia.edu/7123656/RESEARCH_ON_CHILDREN_LEARNING_AND_CONTENT_-_NEW_POSSIBILITIES We are inviting collaboratores/ supporters for this enquiry–Jinan,’DIGITAL MEDIUM IS A TOOL.DIGITALLY MEDIATED KNOWLEDGE DESTROYS THE BEING’ http://sadhanavillageschool.org/https://www.youtube.com/user/sadhanavillagepunehttps://www.youtube.com/user/jinansvideoswww.re-cognition.orgwww.kumbham.orgreimaginingschools.wordpress.comhttp://designeducationasia.blogspot.com/http://awakeningaestheticawareness.wordpress.com/

     Reply
     • Ellen T Klock says:

       May 28, 2014 at 11:22 pm

       A good education from a parent or a teacher includes delving into the whys and wherefores of life so that a child understands the world on a deeper level. Most children wonder about the real world. They need to explore all the wonders, both pleasant and unpleasant, including nursing homes and waste treatment plants, planetariums and farms, concerts and plays, etc. Not just playgrounds, but also graveyards.
       School doesn’t have to be a white wash of life. I agree, the whole truth must be presented, warts and all.

     • Barry Elliott says:

       May 30, 2014 at 11:27 am

       Ellen,
       Quoting you again; “As a parent, I have the right to raise my children as I see fit.” I can’t argue with that. As the third graders love to remind everyone within earshot when they feel imposed upon, “It’s a free country”.
       But, wait a second. If you decide as a parent that school is not a good environment for your eleven-year-old or any child of a certain age and you aren’t able or willing to play the home school game and jump through all the hoops or comply with all the curriculum and other requirements, are you able then to raise your child as you see fit? NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT. The knock on the door will come and typically quite swiftly. If you assert your parental prerogative with stubbornness, your child will be taken from your custody and you will be subject to other punishments. A man in Utah was shot dead outside his residence about fifteen years ago because he refused to obey that onerous law. My good friend lost his job as a teacher because he stated publicly that he would not force his daughters to attend if they chose not to. One of them chose not to and she is far better educated than any graduate I know.
       I have nine grandchildren (one deceased at age twenty), four great-grandchildren, and three children (one deceased at age 13). I am proud of them all and love them as much as a parent and grandparent possibly can. One granddaughter was the president of her graduating class, after being home-schooled for several earlier grades and the others have excelled in various ways. My surviving daughter and son have executive positions and are highly respected parents, despite losing their Mother in 1973. All of them have had their problems and issues and some have had struggles and challenges that have had me close to hysteria and desperation more than a few times. What does any of this prove about controlling children or about compulsory attendance?
       You said, quoting again, “it is not up to me to judge”. Yet, you are apparently happy to go along in silence with the designation by state and school authorities of “experts’ and official who judge everything about a child’s experience and conduct from K through 12 and who decide willy-nilly what the rules and standards will be and then issue rewards and punishments with little or no parental oversight or recourse.
       In my attempts to prod, shock, and challenge anyone and everyone I sometimes give the impression that I’m being personal or attacking one’s character. I doubt I would ever say anything to you that I wouldn’t say to Diane Ravitch herself and I hate to appear too impatient or judgmental. But, this does ultimately boil down to expecting people and especially professionals to be more honest with themselves and less inclined to rationalize or go along with shoddy thinking. Courageously demanding accountability and having more than superficial knowledge relative to major issues instead of accepting excuses when addressing problems is the civic responsibility of every adult citizen and of everyone who claims to know something about education.
       Americans generally aren’t able to imagine a world where school attendance isn’t mandatory for several reasons. Most notably is the simple fact that for twelve years most young people are heavily inculcated with the necessity and propriety of forced attendance. I call it brainwashing, since children are a captive audience; school personnel have absolute power over them; they are bombarded with incessant messages affirming the benefits of schooling and planting the indelible idea that failure to succeed will be blamed squarely on them, and powerful authority figures with the ability to make their lives miserable befriend and pacify them in a two-faced manner, while they are at the same time in many cases quick to treat their wards with malice or contempt should they dare to step out of line.
       I’ve watched you struggling to find arguments to support attendance laws, none of which have any credibility because they are the same familiar old tired arguments that have been dragged out a million times and because they are not supported by any empirical evidence or research, nor are they relevant to any real life experience beyond your family and anecdotal stories from highly biased sources. You have danced around the issue and never directly presented any kind of solid case against my statements. You need to believe that you are open-minded, but you lack the ability to even consider that the arbitrary authority emanating from attendance laws is in every way contrary to and antithetical to the process of education as you yourself define it. And, I will say that Diane has been equally negligent in my opinion in facing this issue as a science-minded individual or a professional. The urgency of putting out the fires that are burning all around may seem to take precedence, but the intense flames that have been smoldering for many generations will only gain in intensity until they are extinguished by effective and definitive action and by recognizing the actual source of inflammable material.

   • Barry Elliott says:

     May 25, 2014 at 4:57 pm

     Ellen,
     The issue with respect to slaves was not that they were excluded from school attendance but that they were forbidden to learn how to read and write. School, then as now, when it came to compulsory attendance for those who weren’t exceptionally wealthy was/is a vehicle for exercising control over the masses. The elites with the resources had private tutors, and eventually private academies, where their children were kept well away from the common riff raff. I’ve read statistics that claim that the rate of literacy in the US prior to the first compulsory attendance laws was actually higher than it was about thirty years ago. There is no more total or effective to control the masses than by removing children from home and filling their heads with the thoughts and ideas approved by state appointed “experts”.
     You continue to conflate school and education as if school attendance assures some level of education. You apparently have a profound need to believe this bizarre myth, despite incontrovertible evidence to the contrary.
     A poor educational system is a discriminatory system, as you state and as I’ve also said many times. But, a school system that militates against education is the best means of promoting discrimination one could ask for. Discrimination and authoritarianism are of a piece. Discrimination is the logical conclusion of competition and of a regieme based on evaluation, hierarchies, supposed academic achievement, and compliance with arbitrary rules and conditions. Bullying, segregation, racial animus, and resentments of all kinds have not decreased in generations, despite the best intentions of most educators.
     Take a look around you. Open your eyes. Read some history on the Civil Rights Movement and women’s sufferage. Schools, and some great academic knowledge that was absent before in oppressed populations, did not create the changes that took place, such as they were. Activism, personal sacrifice, marching in the street, political pressure, people dying and fighting back, and those from the privileged majorities or sympathetic males with strong mothers who found the courage to stand up for minorities and women made most of the difference. The Brown decision and progress on the housing, labor, economic, and other fronts all helped to bloster the movements, but the schools themselves have more often delivered the message firmly to minorities and girls that one should sit down, shut up, and passively do what one is told, whether or not there is any comprehension or meaningful engagement.
     My answer to the question of solutions, alternatives, and what my theories of education and school are always remain the same. I’m not espousing theories and strategies and new kinds of bells and whistles. JUST PLEASE STOP PRETENDING THAT SCHOOLING AS WE KNOW IT HAS BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN ANY SIGNIFICANT MANNER. Compulsory attendance has not done a damn thing to improve life for anyone, anywhere –PERIOD. You have drunk the Kool Aid because it has defined your life from soon after birth until the present, like most of the rest of us. Your sense of reality depends of believing that schools educate if only students apply themselves enough and that you have been part of a great educational endeavor. I’m sorry if you aren’t willing able to have that fragile bubble burst.
     Whether it is someone like David Koresch and his adult followers, Arne Duncan, Bill Gates, or Diane Ravitch, when adults live in a fantasy world, children usually suffer. There really isn’t much I can do for you. If the truth about school failures and the inappropriateness of schooling for education is too much to bear, you will continue swimming along with the school fish or the fish school and praying for the fix that is always just a little this way or that way, down deeper, or up in shallower waters. If one has a cancerous tumor, the usual solution starts with cutting it out. There is no way forward as long as the laws predetermine a “system” that does more to destroy educational growth than to enhance it.
     Dewey was saying things that sounded a little like the discoveries that were offered in the copied e-mail I sent you earlier. In 1862, Tolstoy complained bitterly about the folly of the educators who thought that herding children into school en masse and requiring them to study literature and language and math would result in an educated populace somehow, when he had seen firsthand how miserably that approach had worked. He had already eloquently delineated the reasons coercion, browbeating, and cheerleading were ludicrous, giving human nature and the realities of social organization.
     The writing is on the wall. Turn on the light; put on your reading glasses, and if it isn’t a language you understand, seek translators. The truth hasn’t changed since Tolstoy wrote his essays in the 1860’s. In an ideal world home schooling and tutoring might be the answer for everyone. In the real world, the best we can do is stop doing such great harm to children and asking schools to perform impossible miracles. Once bad laws are eliminated, education will have a chance to bloom in a million places, including in many schools, but not as a panacea or as social engineering or as an exclusive and primary product of wonderful teachers.

     Reply
     • Ellen T Klock says:

       May 25, 2014 at 5:26 pm

       Barry – I know that simply applying oneself does not guarantee an education, especially with the current assessments and Common Core which are meant to fail so many. My son was a hard worker, but his dyslexia combined with a lack of a proper learning environment, led to us pulling him from school and having him get his GED instead.

       Variations of his story exist, not just in the inner city, but in the suburbs as well. The so called standards and the current graduation requirements (passing 5 Regents exams) prevents too many of our youth from graduating.

       I was an excellent student, but my own attendance was far from exemplary. I often would rather learn the material on my own rather than wake up at the crack of dawn to attend my classes, even though I enjoyed the learning process.

       It wasn’t until college that I started taking attendance seriously.

       So my eyes are wide open. I don’t agree with the direction education is going.

       However, except for rejecting Mandatory Attendance, what do you advise?

       My son begged me to home school him when he was just seven. With an entire family of teachers, it could have been done. But I had three other children and bills to pay. If I could get him to school, he worked hard. The teachers worked hard as well. I got him through eighth grade and he can function in the world. High School, however, was a disaster. We tried college, too. No go. A parent has some control over their children, but much less when they become teenagers. At that point, mandatory attendance becomes their personal choice. Too many choose to either stay home, or keep their minds engaged on anything but the teacher. At that point, the concept of mandatory attendance is moot.

       So, then Barry, what is the answer?

     • Barry Elliott says:

       May 26, 2014 at 5:37 pm

       Ellen,
       As I said yesterday, I cannot help you. You and I have radically different philosophies relative to children and beliefs about what education is and is not. To quote what you wrote; “A parent has some control over their children, but has much less when they become teenagers.” That tells me all I need to know. I don’t have any desire to control children at any age, except to the degree that they need to be protected from endangering their safety, and even then, I prefer to find ways to teach and protect without brute force, threats, or using my adult power and authority as a tool of control. You apparently have some blind spot that prevents you from recognizing that control and education are antithetical concepts. They are directly inversely proportional, if the research I’ve seen and my own personal experience means anything at all. I’ve tried to show you that in any number of ways, yet you haven’t even gotten out of the starting gate.
       Compulsory attendance is a security blanket for many people, as someone wrote about six decades ago. What I seem to detect in your statements and inability to give up your school and force fixation is a profound fear and insecurity. Without that hammer with which to threaten, you seem to feel that children will run wild and act like uncivilized animals and fail to learn. That reveals a phenomenal lack of confidence in young people and a sad distrust. One might wonder if anyone who feels such a need to control children would really like them at all if they weren’t compliant, servile, passive, and dependent. The cult of school is all about denying freedom and autonomy and the outcome can never be pretty.
       For the last time, the answer is to disabuse one’s self of the myth that school is about education and that the negative effects of coercion can be overcome through some hocus pocus or new science. The answer is to believe in children enough to believe that they have the desire and ability to learn if provided with adequate opportunity and space. The answer is to relinquish the ludicrous notion that a law dictating school attendance will ever lead to anything but resistance, abject failure, and social disintegration. If eliminating the law doesn’t lead to utopia, no one should be surprised. But, it can’t possibly make things worse than they are now and have been for decades for children and education.
       Barry

     • Ellen T Klock says:

       May 27, 2014 at 7:52 pm

       Barry, I am not a controlling parent. However, I believe that parents have an obligation to expose their children to numerous experiences, school being just one. We give them the tools, the foundation, to guide them through life. Once they are older, a parent must allow their kids to make their own choices, but always remain ready to provide guidance and support when needed. I love my four children and we remain close. Isn’t that the purpose of a family?

       When my son refused to go to high school, we tried numerous programs and counseling to help him. When it was obvious nothing was going to work, we encouraged him to drop out of high school and get his GED. We celebrated his success in passing the exam with a family party, complete with congratulatory cards and gifts. He is secure in the fact that we love him unconditionally.

       I am ready to admit my short comings, but being a good parent is not one of them.

     • Barry Elliott says:

       May 28, 2014 at 3:24 pm

       Ellen,
       Presumably, you are either saying that your philosophy of child-rearing or education that includes an orientation toward control is validated because it has been so successful with your own children, or that you haven’t really practiced that philosophy and that it doesn’t represent accurately what you believe, and that I somehow extrapolated too much from your statement, which did quite clearly reveal a disappointment that older kids can’t be controlled in the way that younger kids can be. Many parents claim to take a “tough love” approach and many truly believe in their own minds that they have been relatively strict disciplinarians. However, if one observes them closely, they find that it has been quite impossible to maintain such a policy consistently and that, in fact, they have been fairly indulgent with their beloved children. Regardless however, a sample of one family is not a sample at all and has no scientific or real world significance, since it has to rely on self-perceptions and self-reporting.
       Maybe what you are actually trying to say is something else altogether. Maybe you are saying that all those “other” kids, i.e. the ones who are from low income families, or who come from certain locales, or who have been disadvantaged by racial or other factors are the kids who need to be controlled – for their own good, obviously. Maybe it isn’t that you don’t really like kids as they are, but that you sincerely believe that those kids who don’t have the “benefit” of the kind of socialization and family structure that you believe is necessary, need to be rounded up and controlled to make them more like the kids in our more “superior” circles.
       What I’m saying is that making children in our image, whether as parents or teachers, is an indication that we don’t like them as they are and that we want to change things about them or their background or culture that we don’t quite approve of or favor. If we can’t get them under our control by force of law, they will be lost – to the life and so-called education that we have envisioned for them – despite their objections, resistance, reticence, or natural inclinations. Paternalism by any other name is still paternalism.
       You can keep searching for rationalizations for another hundred years to convince yourself that there is no real harm in setting up a paradigm or regime that employs coercion and that necessitates an authoritarian milieu, but such incredibly weak anecdotal stories about your family only serve to show how unfounded such notions are in reality. We are speaking different languages and your idea of education has been anachronistic since before I was born, and that was a very long time ago. Even the suggestion of coercion undermines education and precludes learning that is precious and unique to the learner. If that’s a pill you can’t swallow that’s unfortunate. But, I have to repeat what I said earlier. You are responsible to overcome irrational fears and to debunk absurd mythology as an adult. Refusing to leave your comfort zone because you need to believe a bunch of discredited nonsense places you in the category with all the others who are willing to sacrifice children to a destructive machine that chews them up and spits them out without conscience or mercy.
       Barry

     • Ellen T Klock says:

       May 28, 2014 at 11:01 pm

       As a parent, I have the right to raise my children as I see fit. I gave them the tools, how they used them was up to them. I’m proud of all four. They are strong, independent people with good minds and character.

       Every parent must decide what role they play on their child’s life. It is not up to me to judge. While tutoring kids after school, I have been in many inner city homes and met many parents of all races. Almost every parent that I met loved their children and wanted what was best for them.

       As a teacher, my philosophy was to treat my students in the same manner I wished my own children to be treated by their teachers. My goal was for them to realize they are important individuals who have much to offer. Every child deserves to feel special. As an educator, I tried to teach my students techniques and expose them to strategies to assist them in becoming life long learners. What they did with what I taught was up to each child to determine.

       Barry – please don’t misconstrue my intent. I’m sure you don’t mean your comments to sound like attacks on my character. Yet, what you said made me feel like I needed to defend myself.

       I am open to new ideas. Unfortunately, all too often these ideas have so many strings attached they do more harm than good. But I will continue to keep an open mind.

     • Barry Elliott says:

       May 28, 2014 at 6:21 pm

       Ellen,
       Now, I have the nagging sensation that I should have tried harder to “educate” you relative to my assertions and the science and logic behind them. I haven’t gotten the impression that you really have any desire to learn what you don’t know about all this. It seems that you only want to convince me that we are mostly in agreement about what schools should be like or about the need for a more accepting and free environment and that this little point about compulsory attendance laws is just a minor sidebar or a point of no real consequence. But, your heart is obviously in the right place and I’m sure you do want to see more education and less abuse and neglect.
       Perhaps you can find the time to research literature on authoritarian teaching or school environments or on autonomy in school and the effects of experiments where the negative aspects of coercion and control have been eliminated by forward-thinking individuals. I’ve referred you before to many sources if I’m not mistaken. The professional journals are full of splendid studies that confirm my message from a hundred different angles. Google should take you to some great sources.
       I mentioned “Tolstoy’s Essays on Education” earlier. They are translated from Russian and might be a little difficult to follow in some places, but he is the most articulate and brilliant in spelling out the psychology and common sense behind his opposition to compulsory attendance, even though the science of psychology hadn’t yet been identified or invented. His work is out of print and may not be available, but I suspect that copies can be found if one is willing to do a thorough search.
       I found an extensive bibliography on another hard drive that I will copy here. I don’t have time to pick out the best sources for you, however a quick glance shows that the “Gs” are all good (Garner, Goodman, Greer, etc.). A few others are; Kline; Loewen; Matthews; Postman & Weingartner; Rettig, and Wise, if you can unearth that long lost book. The best places to learn about what coercion and even subtle external pressures do to students are probably the latest neuroscience studies that focus on brain processes and on behavioral changes and attitudes in school and other environments that operate with hierarchical authoritarian frameworks. You won’t believe how much has been discovered and then subsequently deep-sixed due to the repression of the bureaucracy and the power structures.
       Barry

       Bessie, A. (2011). Let’s Not Reform Public Education. Retrieved from http://www.care2.com/news/member/451276626/2704837

       Bondy, E. & Brownell, M. T. (2004). Getting Beyond the Research to Practice Gap: Researching Against the Grain. Teacher Education and Special Education: The Journal of the Teacher Education Division of the Council for Exceptional Children, Vol. 27, 47-56.

       Bracey, G. W. (1998). Educational research and educational practice: ne’er the twain shall meet? The Educational Forum, Vol. 62, Winter, 140 – 145.

       Chance, P. (1984). Interview of Dr. Keller. Psychology Today. Sept. Issue, 44.

       Collins, B. A., Dearing, E. & O’Conner, E. E. (2011). Teacher-Child Relationship and Behavior Problem Trajectories in Elementary School. American Educational Research Journal 48, 1, 120-162.

       Corwin, R. G., Education in Crisis (1974). City, New York, NY: Wiley.

       Deacon E. L. & Vasey, M. W. (1997). An Information-processing Perspective on Childhood Anxiety. Clinical Psychology Review, 17, pp. 407-428.

       Dewey, J. (1938). Experience and Education. New York, NY: Touchstone.

       Earle, R. S. (1985). Teachers as Instructional Developers. Educational Technology, 25, 8, 15.

       Eisenberg, L. (1995). The Social Construction of the Human Brain. American Journal of Psychiatry, 152, pp. 1563 – 1572.

       Fairbanks, A. M. & Resmovits, J. (2011). Mayor Bloomberg Gets Schooled After Cathie Black Fiasco. Huffington Post. Retrieved from http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/08/mayor-bloomberg-gets-scho_n_846863.html

       Farley, T. (2011). Standardized Testing: A Decade in Review. Huffington Post. Retrieved from http://www.huffingtonpost.com/todd-farley/standardized-testing-a-de_b_846044.html

       Friedenberg, E. Z. (1975). The Disposal of Liberty and Other Industrial Wastes. Garden City, NJ: Doubleday & Company, Inc.

       Garner R. (1998). Choosing to Learn or Not-Learn in School. Educational Psychology Review, 10, pp. 227-237.

       Gatto, J. T. (1992). Dumbing Us Down: the hidden curriculum of compulsory schooling. Philadelphia, PA: New Society Publishers.

       Goodman, P. (1964). Compulsory Mis- Education and The Community of Scholars.
       New York, NY: Random House.

       Goodman, P. (1960). Growing Up Absurd: problems of youth in the organized system. New York, NY: Random House.

       Greer, C. (1972). The Great School Legend: a revisionist interpretation of American public education. New York, NY: Basic Books.

       Graham, P. (1985). Breaking the Silence About Educational Purpose. Education Digest. 51, 1, 96.

       Groch, J. (1969). The Right to Create. 85/209

       Gubmert E. B. (1982). Alchemy and Exorcism in American Educational Thought. The Educational Forum, XLVI: pp. 181-189.

       Holcombe, R. & Wang, M-T, (2011). Adolescents’ Perceptions of School Environment, Engagement, and Academic Achievement in Middle School, American Educational Research Journal, 47, 3, 633 – 662.

       Holt, J. (1967). How Children Learn. New York, NY: Pitman.

       Holt, J. (1964). How Children Fail. New York, NY: Pitman.

       Hopkins, R. L. (1984). Educating the Right Brain. Educational Technology. 58, 133.

       Illich, I. (1971). De-Schooling Society. Harper and Row.

       Jacob S. H. (1982). Piaget and Education: aspects of a theory. The Educational Forum, XLVI, pp. 221-237.

       Joyce, C. (2011). ‘Race to Nowhere’ Targets Academic Pressures. MSNBC report. Retrieved from http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41744061/ns/nightly_news/t/race-nowhere-targets-academic-pressures/

       Karp, S. (2011). Who’s Bashing Teachers and Public Schools and What Can We Do About It? Commondreams.org. Retrieved from http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/03/28-11

       Kline, P. (2002). Why America’s Children Can’t Think: Creating Independent Minds for the Twenty-first Century. Makawao, Maui, HI: Inner Ocean.

       Lakoff, G. & Johnson, M. (1999). Philosophy in the Flesh. New York, NY: Basic Books.

       Leonard, G. B. (1968). Education and Ecstasy. New York, NY: Delacorte Press.

       Loewen, J. W. (1995). Lies My Teacher Told Me. New York, NY: Touchstone Publishing.

       Matthews, J. (1998). Somatic Knowing and Education. The Educational Forum, 62.

       McNeil, M. (2011). Duncan’s Alarm on ‘Failing’ Schools Raises Eyebrows. Education Week, 3/27.

       Michie, G. (2011). The Trouble with ‘Innovation’ in Schools. Huffington Post. Retrieved from http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gregory-michie/education-reform-innovation_b_844137.html

       Michigan Department of Education (2002, March). What Research Says About Parents’ Involvement in Children’s Education, in Relation to Academic Achievement. Retrieved from http://www.michigan.gov/mde/0,1607,7-140-5233-23090–,00.html

       Newsweek (1981, April 20). Why the Public Schools are Flunking.

       Nichols, J. D. & Utesch, W. E. (1998). Preschool Behavior and First-Grade School Achievement: the mediation role of cognitive self-control. Journal of Educational Psychology, 90, pp. 111-121.

       Papert, S. (1998). Why School Reform is Impossible. The Journal of the Learning Sciences, 6 (4), pp. 417-427.

       Perelman, L. J. (1992). School’s Out. New York, NY: William Morrow & Co.

       Postman, N. & Weingartner, C. (1969). Teaching as a Subversive Activity. New York, NY: Delacorte Press.

       Rettig, R. P. (1979). A Study in Student Development: Rebellion and Delinquency as Alternative Responses to Schooling. Palo Alto, CA: R & E Research Assoc.

       Scardamalia, M. & Paris P. (1985). Explicit Discourse Knowledge. Cognition and Instruction. 2, 1.

       Scott, A. (1995). Stairway to the Mind; New York, NY: Copernicus/Springer-Verlag.

       Searle, J. R. (1998). Mind, Language and Society. New York, NY: Basic Books.

       Simons, M. (1985). Learning to Experience. Educational Philosophy and Theory. 17, 1, 8.

       Snyder, J. (1978). An Intellectual Retreat. North Dakota Journal of Education.

       Tolstoy, L. (1967). Tolstoy on Education (Translated/Ed. by Wiener). Chicago, IL: University of Chicago Press. (Original work published 1862)

       Viadero, D. (2011, March 27). IES Seeks Strategies to Rescue ‘Chronically’ Failing Schools. Education Week.

       Wise, A. E. (out of print). Publisher information and date has been lost. Legislated Learning. 78.

Leave a Reply Cancel reply

Enter your comment here...

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

Email (required) (Address never made public)

Name (required)

Website

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. ( Log Out /  Change )

You are commenting using your Twitter account. ( Log Out /  Change )

You are commenting using your Facebook account. ( Log Out /  Change )

Cancel

Connecting to %s

Notify me of new comments via email.

Notify me of new posts via email.

Δ