I used to be one of those people who complained that the younger generation was not as smart as my generation. I met adolescents who had never heard of “The Rime of the Ancient Mariner” or some other piece of literature that I thought was central to our literary tradition. Or, I noticed that all the cash registers were computerized to compensate for cashiers who didn’t know how to make change. It was so easy to find examples of ignorance, cultural, mathematical, historical. But I didn’t give too much thought to how widespread such illiteracy was in the past. And I had an attitude, which is easy to acquire, that we grown-ups were just better educated because…well, we were.
But now that I am older and I hope, wiser, I am continually impressed with the number of amazingly smart young people I encounter, some in person, some on the Internet. For one thing, almost every young person knows more about technology than I do. If I am trying to figure out how to do something on my computer or iPad or iPhone, I look for someone in the younger generation to solve my problem.
But that’s not all. Young people are generally more creative than older people, at least in my experience. In part because of their early exposure to new technologies, they have learned to think of creative ways to express their ideas. They just naturally gravitate towards graphic representation of their ideas.
Unlike my generation, and the one that followed mine, they don’t protest by writing letters or signing petitions. They take action. My favorite example is the Providence Student Union. They have organized many creative acts of political theater. They are like the Yippies of the 1960s or ACT-UP, whether they know it or not. PSU protested the misuse of a standardized test for high school graduation by a variety of creative tactics. They held a zombie march in front of the State Education Department. They invited 60 successful professionals to take released items from the standardized test that would be used as a graduation requirement, and most of them failed it. They pre-empted state Commissioner Deborah Gist’s annual State of Education address by delivering the first annual State of the Student address. They recently dressed as guinea pigs and ran around the legislative halls. They held a candidate forum in the mayoral race and every candidate agreed with their opposition to the use of the standardized test for graduation. What an amazing group! I have no doubt that they will win their battle because it means so much more to them than to the adults on the other side. And the kids are more creative in expressing their views.
Then there are the kids who have explained what is wrong with Common Core and why they oppose it. They are far better prepared and more eloquent than the people paid to advocate for Common Core because the kids are speaking from their life experience, not with an eye to their paycheck.
The brilliant Ethan Young of Tennessee, neatly dressed in suit and tie, testified to his local school board about the defects of data-driven instruction and Common Core. Tennessee won Race to the Top funding, and Arne Duncan likes to hold it up as a shining example of the success of his data-driven approach to education. I wish Duncan would take five minutes and listen to Ethan Young. Ethan’s testimony went viral, with well more than 2 million viewers. He spoke eloquently about his wonderful, dedicated teachers and how demoralized they are by Race to the Top’s emphasis on value-added-measurement. He said he was there to fight not just for future students, but for his teachers. “If everything I learned in high school is a measurable objective, I haven’t learned anything.” He said it twice to emphasize the point. “We teach to free minds, we teach to inspire.” He added, “Haven’t we gone too far with data.” Ethan is a graduate of public schools. He has been accepted by Yale.
Also last fall, a 15-year-old in Arkansas named Patrick Richardson went through a PowerPoint presentation to explain his views about the Common Core. Agree or disagree, this young man was very impressive in his grasp of the facts and his ability to assemble them into a coherent narrative. He took longer than Ethan Young–35 minutes–but he too showed more understanding of the Common Core than any of the high-paid public relations people who defend it but will never take a test made by Pearson, PARCC, or SBAC.
So, let me say it again, emphatically: I believe in the younger generation. They know different things than we do. They are smart. They are creative. We should stop trying to standardize them and stop reducing them to data points. We should educate them with passion, love, caring, and a belief in them, not knowing whether they are headed for college or careers, but knowing they deserve the best we know how to give. They will surpass us, and that is as it should be.

“Yippies,” I think you meant to write.
As for this paragraph, there’s a difference between being “smart” and being “educated,” isn’t there? Are you saying that you used to think that your generation was “smarter” than younger generations, or that your generation was more “educated” than younger generations? And if the latter, do you no longer think younger generations are less “educated” than your generation?
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This is a very, very good question. The distinction is an important one. Often, in education, we gloss over these distinctions that are really, really important. For example, we issue a long list of vague, abstractly formulated “skills” to be acquired by explicit means and call that a set of “standards” without recognizing that attainment involves many, many different kinds of learning and acquisition that have to be included in our lists and formulated in dramatically different ways from one another if those lists are to be at all descriptive of real attainment and actually validly measurable.
The amateurs who rushed into producing the Common [sic] Core [sic] State [sic] Standards [sic] did their work heedlessly, without any real thought. They simply hacked together the lowest-common denominator groupthink of the previously existing state standards without giving these matters and real thought.
Fools rush in.
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Bob, Flerp and everyone,
Here is a superb essay I just read in The NY Times (last Sunday’s review). Trust me!
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/05/10/young-minds-in-critical-condition/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0
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There are seven identified learning styles with many combinations of them. Students don’t fit into a simple model so why should the standards.
http://www.learning-styles-online.com/overview/
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It was Hippies. Weren’t any of you there, too? Yuppies were the Young Urban Professionals of the 80s, who got MBAs and thought Gordon Gekko ruled. Maybe it’s their kids who are the hedge funders of today.
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I was not yet conceived at that time. The happiest days of my life! But I assume Diane was trying to type “Yippies” and got auto-corrected.
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Yippies, from Wiki: The Youth International Party, whose members were commonly called Yippies, was a radically youth-oriented and countercultural revolutionary offshoot of the free speech and anti-war movements of the 1960s. It was founded on December 31, 1967.[1][2] They employed theatrical gestures, such as advancing a pig (“Pigasus the Immortal”) as a candidate for President in 1968, to mock the social status quo.[3] They have been described as a highly theatrical, anti-authoritarian and anarchist[4] youth movement of “symbolic politics”.[5]
Kind of sounds like the PSU except the PSUers are a bit younger than most yippies were. All the better!
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Yes, and in one of the most brilliant acts of political theater during that era, the Yippies dumped a box of dollar bills from the visitors balcony onto the floor of the NY Stock Exchange. The image of stockbrokers stampeding each other to grab the money said more about US capitalism than a thousand academic studies…
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The term Yippie was invented by Paul Krassner and Abby Hoffman in 1967. Krassner wrote in the LA Times in 2007:
“We needed a name to signify the radicalization of hippies, and I came up with Yippie as a label for a phenomenon that already existed, an organic coalition of psychedelic hippies and political activists.”
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Over the past century, intelligence tests have had to be renormed every decade because of dramatic average increases in “g,” the “general intelligence factor” measured by these tests. Now, those tests are questionable, but still, this is an interesting phenomenon. The consequences are dramatic. A score considered indicative of someone’s being barely educable today would have been a borderline genius-level score in 1935! This is called the Flynn Effect.
A recent study by Commonsense Media of reading by teenagers shows, over the past 20 years, almost no change in the amount of reading for pleasure that they do.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/12/us-usa-reading-idUSKBN0DS04L20140512
The headline writers, however, choose to write headlines that scream “Reading is declining!”
Here’s what I think is happening: New kinds of literacy are emerging. Kids, today, are much more plugged in and are getting information form many different sources all the time. They are exposed to a LOT more information than children in the past were, even though they are reading no more books. And, as Daniel Dennett points out, they are using a lot more powerful heuristics for thinking, which get shared more widely, as information does, because we are all embedded, now, in these information networks.
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I had a feeling I should have just waited 15 seconds for you to write a more intelligent version of what I was trying to say.
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“Now, those tests are questionable. . . ”
Now that’s an understatement!
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In his book The Educated Imagination, from a series of lectures that he gave, critic Northrup Frye speaks of an ancient Sumerian fragment, one of the earliest pieces of writing that has survived that is not simply a record of the amount of grain in some granary, and this fragment says that “Children no longer obey their parents nor honor the gods.”
People have always complained about “kids these days.” And, meanwhile, the average kid these days could think circles around the average kid in the past.
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Bob Shepherd: and then there’s—
“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.” [Socrates]
This thread won’t exhaust the topic raised by the posting, but I thank all of you for your food for thought.
And most especially, among so many thousands of posts on this blog, one of the best.
Thank you, Diane, and get well.
😎
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OMG, yes. I forgot to say that. I take for granted that there is this brilliant, humane spring and sometimes forget that that spring is a single mind, the mind of the great Diane Ravitch, who is changing the world, one post at a time, and leading the CounterRheeformation.
Diane, thank you for this post!!!!
And for what you do every day.
I hope you are not suffering horribly right now. Much love and healing to you.
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Kids today may indeed be more inclined to think “graphically,” but it also seems to me that they write a *lot* more than older generations did at their age, due to the Internet (messaging, e-mail, social media, etc.) So ironically it may be that kids read less but write more. Perhaps not better, but more.
Also, there’s the question of which generation you’re comparing kids to. My generation grew up glued to the TV set, watching *terrible, terrible content.* Today’s kids are increasingly glued to the Internet through PCs and mobile devices, which has its downsides but is a much richer and more sophisticated experience than watching the Flintstones or re-runs of Petticoat Junction.
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Absolutely. So, there are differing “literacies” and “post-literacies” evolving, and these are not fully understood because they are subtle. Attainments are not monolithic and cannot be measured by simple, summative numbers.
Consider, for example, the undeniable fact that people are strongly influenced by social sanction. Well, now people are exposed, from very early ages, to social sanction cast not by a narrow, provincial, local community but cast by the whole of the Net. This is having profound effects. Let me give an example:
I suspect that the dramatic advances in LGBT rights in recent years are a result of this. People interact online with a lot more gay people, and there’s a lot more information available (almost any young person knows, now, as a result of information from the Internet, that homosexual and bisexual behavior are widespread in ALMOST EVERY vertebrate species in the wild and cannot by any stretch of the imagination be considered unnatural; they’ve also seen the pics of the loving pair of male penguins Roy and Silo in the Central Park Zoo and football player kissing his boyfriend, and none of this is in the slightest bit shocking to them) and prejudice depends upon ignorance and provincialism and those simply aren’t as sustainable in the Internet Age. So, young people simply KNOW MORE about sexual orientation today than kids did in the past, and that’s a very, very good thing, for it’s ridding us of a horrific prejudice AND MAKING KIDS SMARTER.
And often, the ways in which they are becoming smarter go right over the heads of their elders and certainly are not measured by any of the ridiculously narrow standardized tests that they are taking.
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I’m not sure they are into the sites that would give them a “richer and more sophisticated experience.” Having access to more information is not the same as making good use of it. That being said, kids do have easier access to information than we did and we are easily impressed by their ease with technology. I think it is more likely that as we get older we have modes of processing experience that work for us and have less incentive (or use for) all the bells and whistles. Kids are still experimenting and school is a wonderful place to learn for a lot of them. Sadly, we have not provided the same access to all kids.
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I take your point, but here is simply no way that whatever sites they’re using are not richer and more sophisticated than the Flintstones. The TV I watched as a kid was just horrifically bad.
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Actually, using the Flintstones is not the best of examples. It was more than a kid’s show. It was a social commentary. I remember my father sitting and laughing his head off at things that were a bit over our heads. Plus, at the time, TV was not the ubiquitous influence that media is today. I spent very little of my childhood in the 50s and 60s in front of a TV.
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The Flintstones was a prime time TV show for adults. Modeled on the Honeymooners.
Social commentary.
Not for kids originally.
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Yes, and just terrible.
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A wonderful blog. Very touching and evocative, but It cuts right to the core of the evaluation nonsense put out there for ONE purpose only,.. TO PROVE FAILURE so that the schools could be privitized.
To do that, the professional voice had to be silenced, and it was easy to do this once they could be evaluated as incompetent. Teachers who were celebrated the past year, were suddenly failures.
It worked and it was sooooo much easier to get rid of expensive and vocal veteran professionals than to remove them by charging them with criminal acts.
In the beginning– of the assault on teachers — in order to break tenure, a crime had to be invented. You see, to remove a teacher in NYC IMMEDIATELY (which was necessary in order to remove her/him from the site, distancing them from the place where reputation was strong) a criminal act was needed. Corporal punishment was one, but there were plenty of others because the administration was unaccountable for slander once the grievance process was corrupted. Wonderful practitioners were sent into teacher-jails, awaiting hearing of rears, while the school population forgot them.
Now, teachers do not have to be sent into rubber rooms. They can be evaluated and judged incompetent, and transformed into ATRs, and harassed out by removing them from the physical practice that they worked so hard to create.
But the kids know what it means to have a great teacher….but who listens to kids, or to teachers…the only voice in this country shaping the narrative is the one that Koch, Broad and clones bought…Duncan.
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awaiting hearing for years… not ‘rears”. That is important. When a teacher goes missing, in 3 years, students move on, and so do colleagues, no one who could give evidence of innocence is around… reputation destroyed by allegation, innuendo and the destruction of the employment folder which shows past success…. the 5th and 6th Article of the Bill of Rights was obliterated and over one hundred thousand veteran teachers disappeared. Lorna Stremcha in Montana tells her story of Bravery, Bullies and Blowhards:Lesson sLearned in a Montana classroom,” which will soon be released. Wait until you her HER story.
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I’m not sure kids are more creative because of technology – if anything, maybe in spite of technology. I think kids are more creative because they haven’t been stifled in the adult world yet. I used to write stories, draw pictures, etc., but after 16 years in the legal world I have trouble reading fiction, let alone writing it. And I still have the technical drawing skills I developed as a kid, but I can’t draw from imagination anymore – I have to be looking at something. Of course, there’s also the time factor – creativity, like anything else, requires time to be nurtured and developed. When you’re working full time and trying to raise a family, time is a very scarce commodity.
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I should have waited and read all the posts before adding my two cents. I think we are on the same page.
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I returned to school after 25 years to enter education. Spent a severance at a local university to do so when our company was moved overseas. I was so impressed with the 20 somethings I met in college. They were bright, motivated, and dedicated. They also were burdened with huge loan debt (I could work my way through college in the 80s), under more pressure, and facing a dismal economy. So many more have taken Calculus and Composition courses that were hardly offered in “the old days”. They accepted me without question as an equal though I was probably older than their dads. A very impressive bunch.
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AMEN. I strongly agree.
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A few years back, my stepdaughter was dating the guy who turned out to valedictorian of his graduating class. I noticed that he never read for pleasure. And neither did their bright friends. Almost never. When I was in college, kids were always carrying around, in addition to their textbooks, the books they were reading. Nerdy kids were reading Vonnegut and Heinlein. Political kids were reading The Greening of America and The Wretched of the Earth. Hippie kids were reading Richard Brautigan and Ram Das.
So, I asked the valedictorian about this. He said, I read all the time. I just don’t read many books. Nothing scientific about my investigation there, of course, but I think that his response is illuminating.
I met these incredibly bright kids all the time. I am often blown away by how much they know about and at what depths. They are quite good at assimilating information on the fly, and they have really superb crap detectors.
Which bodes badly for the oligarchs and their attempts to standardize and regiment education. They had better get their push technologies and the end of net neutrality in place as quickly as possible. Otherwise, they are going to have a lot of bright young people on their hands asking a lot of difficult questions and not liking the answers that they hear.
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And, of course, that Commonsense Media study of kids’ reading for pleasure shows almost no change in the amount of such reading among teenagers over the past 20 years. But one has to bear in mind that surfing the net involves reading but wouldn’t be include in those reading figures.
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Kindles are my kids favorite. My HS daughter is reading “To Kill a Mockingbird”, “Foundation” series, “Flatland”, and “The Hobbit” simultaneously. I often wonder if that is how kids now prefer to read. Short bursts and time-sliced. This seems more like how they absorb information in the new tech age. And, yes, she can finish them and critically analyze each one amazingly well.
I’ve pondered if math could be taught more in a non-linear fashion. Short “tweet-sized” lessons run as threads in parallel.
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And possessive apostrophes are becoming a relic of the past. 🙂
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Thats certainly so.
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so, apostrophes for contractions, too. lol
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example, MathVale?
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I never noticed a disappearance of the apostrophe until I taught largely Latino classes. La casa de mi tios, the house of my aunt and uncle, does not require possessive apostrophes. They used to pepper their writing with random apostrophes. Apostrophes were a major challenge.
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Our children ARE smart and successful. The FAILURES are the huge salaries paid to the leaders who bash our public education system in order to create a crisis so they can “reform” our children (and make even more money from doing so).
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I am constantly telling my college freshmen how important it is that their generation take it upon themselves to lead and to act much earlier than previous generations. So many people are wagging their fingers at them, calling them lazy and selfish and I just don’t see it. They did not create the trends that are harming their generation, but they are getting blamed for them and it is infuriating.
Thank you for such a humane and needed post.
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One of the things I like about my father is he says the same thing. He’s almost 90 and he says he’s been hearing the same thing his entire life, from each generation. He says “I was there, and I’m telling you, we weren’t any smarter”.
He also says his college professors trashed his high school teachers for not adequately “preparing” him when he entered college on the GI bill, so that seems to be something of a constant too 🙂
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Nothing like a lot of profoundly ignorant toadies at an ALEC dinner, their bellies full of steak and wine purchased for them by plutocrats, staggering out clutching their prefabricated legislation to correct the terrible problem with “kids these days”
I would be amusing to get members of Congress and of our state legislators to sit for a basic test of elementary school history, geography, science, and math. I am willing to be that there would be an inverse correlation between outcomes on that test and support for the Common Core.
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cx: state legislatures, of course
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It’s particularly clueless if they’re talking about the 22 to 27 year old cohort (the ages of my grown kids) because they entered adulthood into one of the worst economies in decades.
They had a really tough entry into the workforce. Both of my kids were hired, but it was like the world was ending. I remember the speaker at my elder son’s college graduation (immediately after the crash) and she was basically telling them to go hide under their beds. All was lost!
I think they probably turn out to be a pretty tough, resilient generation, actually. They survived world markets crashing and 16% unemployment, and they’re not even 30. Seems rather silly and pompous to be hectoring them about “grit” and “responsibility”, given what they were handed.
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well said, Chiara!
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Well, they were first-generation college students on the GI bill, many of them (including my father) so it probably was a change for professors, this huge influx of The Masses.
Kind of like first generation college students now, right? 🙂
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I don’t know if you-all saw this, from the LA Times:
“A new study out of USC and the University of Pennsylvania finds that value-added measurements — a way of using student test scores to evaluate teacher performance — aren’t a very good way of judging teacher quality. This isn’t the first study to cast doubt on what has become a linchpin educational policy of the Obama administration but there’s an interesting element that lends its findings extra weight: It was funded by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, a well-known supporter of using test scores in teacher evaluations.”
So what do you do if you’re in the Obama Administration and you made what may be a questionable process or metric a “linchpin” of your educational policy?
It seems the right thing to do would be to come out and say “there are questions being raised about our linchpin policy, so we’re privately assessing and publicly addressing those questions”
http://laschoolreport.com/doubts-about-teacher-evaluations-and-test-scores-lausd/
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Thank you for this post. It’s always easy to stand in criticism and judgment, until we start identifying our own deficiencies and recognizing the strengths in others. Often, when criticizing others, if we stop and ask, “What about me?”… if you are CLEAR, and honest with yourself, there is often an area in which we have a “plank in our own eye” in spite of the sliver in our neighbor’s. If we look for the sacred in each other, it’s easier to see their gifts, and they are more likely to see what we have to offer.
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I am posting the success story that is Cincinnati Public Schools, thanks to United Way and Strive and other nonprofit activity that has raised the student graduation rate from 50% to 80%. How do they succeed? Wrap around services. Check it out. I only pray that when PARCC kicks in, all this progress won’t be undermined.
http://m.startribune.com/?id=258780581
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“Are you hungry, baby?” she asked a girl in a worn jacket. “You go tell them Mrs. Smith said to feed you.”
yes yes yes yes yes
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I hope this story becomes viral.
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Nice to see the praise for a school of choice like Rothenberg Academy and the product of a turnaround effort praised. Even more surprising is the praise of business involvement (General Electric is reported to be playing a large role) and charitable trusts like the Gates foundation.
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But the schools are public …not for profit.
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Most charter schools are stand alone schools (2 out of 3), many are non-profit. There are a number of stages that only allow non-profits.
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I think the “education” gap, as FLERP! calls it, is much larger now compared to 30 or 40 years ago. Ambitious knowledgable students have access to much more information and low cost communication makes interactions with other ambitious and knowledgable students and teachers much easier.
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TE, you may be correct. The thing is …so many people object when children in poverty, through no fault of their own, somehow gain access to that technology that is used to widen the gap. That is problematic.
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Most of the complaints I have seen about students getting access to technology have been here by some frequent posters, not in the general press.
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TE, in Ohio and elsewhere, if you read the local news, listen to the campaign rhetoric coming from certain people, they pretend to support education, but they do not really support public education. They do what they can to promote charters, for profit charters.
The complainers object to “those people” having cell phones, or computers, or TVs. They don’t bother to find out if their electronics and tech come from a relative. They assume that if someone has food stamps, they should have no right to even “get in the game”.
That is why wrap around services ate essential. That is why for profit organizations ate NOT about philanthropy. There are exceptions.
My experience as a poll worker on May 6 showed me just precisely how a “nice elderly man” really doesn’t think “they” should be allowed to vote.
Things will never change until people are treated as well as rich people’s pets, not that that would be sufficient.
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I am not sure who the “they” are you are talking about. With a few notable exceptions like Robert Shepherd, frequent posters here object to the use of technology in schools and condemn on line classes.
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Not here per se. I am speaking of friends, relatives, and acquaintances, online and in person, and at the primary election who don’t think anyone deserves any kind of assistance. They seem to shrug off the plight of the children as if they hardly deserve to exist. I find that attitude deplorable. Yet these same people promote their views as wholesome. I just beg to differ.
Good night. I am feeling very unwell this evening.
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“Most of the complaints I have seen about students getting access to technology have been here by some frequent posters”
This is a disgusting misrepresentation. Frequent posters do not aim to deny students access to technology, but you can always count on trolls like TE to bash folks here who have genuine concerns about children, just like the American Academy of Pediatrics has, such as regarding kids sitting in front of computer screens for hours. That includes children in large computer labs with many other students and only a teacher aide, starting in Kindergarten, at charters like Rocketship. And then there are all those children who have failed or dropped out of K12 Inc’s online classes.
No wonder there are those who cannot stand how TE comes here to twist the truth and malign others, so he can promote his privatization agenda. Insidious and sickening.
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Perhaps you could point to the numerous, or perhaps even occasional responses that talk about the virtues on online courses (mine don’t count) or school systems being praised for incorporating technology into the classroom. I must have missed them.
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YOU made the assertions, YOU provide the evidence for all those numerous “complaints” by “frequent posters” “about students getting access to technology.” Based on what you said, one would surmise that frequent posters here promote Luddism and the neglect of children, which are patently false claims.
Virtually everything you say about people here is hyperbole and a ruse to slander them and downplay their genuine concerns about kids, in order to promote your privatization agenda.
Go get a hobby that doesn’t involve harming people, lying and privatizing public education.
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Actually I typically avoid saying anything about people here, but try to concentrate on the srguments presented. I am not sure how you equate condemning on line classes with neglecting children. I am sure that those who condem virtual classes do not think they are neglecting children, probably very much the opposite.
I will provide the links to posts of you wish, but there will be a delay due to moderation. I will break it up into several separate posts. I must say that Google site search is a wonderful tool. I look forward to seeing how you support your position.
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I never made any assertions about posters on this blog.
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here is frequent poster susannunes about online classes:
“Online courses should NOT be allowed in K-12 except in rare circumstances (health issues, rural areas) and closely monitored by school districts.”
“It is for K-12. It is the complete opposite of what kids should be doing in education.”
They are both from this thread:
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Here is frequent poster Yvonne Siu-Runyan:
“I took an online course and one of my former students also took an online. They were HORRID!”
Link: https://dianeravitch.net/2013/05/15/what-happens-when-community-college-students-take-online-courses/comment-page-1/#comment-169874
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Concerned Citizen writes:
I agree with everything you wrote–except the idea that this is a unique example. I think the problems outlined by this online teacher are common to EVERY online or virtual course, high school, college-level, or otherwise. (emphasis is mine)
Link is here: https://dianeravitch.net/2014/01/07/anthony-cody-confessions-of-a-teacher-in-virtual-charter-school-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-417505
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I have only been writing here for 3 weeks, but I have followed the conversations about teaching, and with the exception of the trolls who have nothing better to do then nurse their egos in the name of presenting valid argument, there are wonderful, informative conversations going on.
I love where you say, “Get a hobby” as this is a good idea, or she can put up her own wordpress blog and attract those who are wedded to the dogma.
For dogma it is and there is a wonderful essay by Paul krugman that describes it… he says about the deniers of the evidence on many issues :
“I’ve been thinking a lot lately about the power of doctrines — how support for a false dogma can become politically mandatory, and how overwhelming contrary evidence only makes such dogmas stronger and more extreme. For the most part, I’ve been focusing on economic issues, but the same story applies with even greater force to climate.”
I believe it applies to issues about education, which distort us from the real CONVERSATION which is about LEARNING, AND HOW TO ENABLE IT!
Krugman conitnues, and could be talking about the ‘trolls’ who waste our time here:
“Why the bad behavior? Nobody likes admitting to mistakes, and all of us — even those of us who try not to — sometimes engage in motivated reasoning, selectively citing facts to support our preconceptions.But hard as it is to admit one’s own errors, it’s much harder to admit that your entire political movement got it badly wrong. Inflation phobia has always been closely bound up with right-wing politics; to admit that this phobia was misguided would have meant conceding that one whole side of the political divide was fundamentally off base about how the economy works. So most of the inflationistas have responded to the failure of their prediction by becoming more, not less, extreme in their dogma, which will make it even harder for them ever to admit that they, and the political movement they serve, have been wrong all along.”
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Krugman!
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Is that supposed to resonate with me, or mean something> It doesn’t.
I don’t read people, I read ideas and he nailed it… but don’t let facts or evidence or truth get in your way. Stay with your dogma.
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So sorry. I was in a hurry. Krugman is correct. Geesh!
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“frequent posters here object to the use of technology in schools”
Typical red herring.
Broad brush.
Disingenuous .
Some posts here have questioned the usefulness/ helpfulness/ appropriateness/effectiveness of some technology.
You know the difference.
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Ang,
I am working on a response, but I could not resist positing this general statement made about “gadgets”:
Also, BTW, many of us have spoken, written, and complained to anyone who would listen about the $ spent on gadgets ( smart boards, iPads etc.). One could possibly even use the word ” attack”.
here is the link: https://dianeravitch.net/2014/01/07/anthony-cody-confessions-of-a-teacher-in-virtual-charter-school-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-418122
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This is not just about online courses. Aiming to deny students “access to technology” is very broad and could be readily interpreted as child neglect in the Information Age.
Go ahead, pull some errant complaints from Google. I’m sure you can find some. But I have neither the time nor the inclination to identify all the posts in which support of technology is mentioned. And I am not going to engage in more dialogue, since talking with you is clearly fruitless, as I have seen repeatedly for many supporters of public education on this blog.
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I never made assertions about people who post here.
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If your not willing to offer support for your position, that is fine.
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Deb, It’s not about what you said. I’ve heard politicians and right-wingers make the complaints about poor people having technology that you mentioned. Look at my first post, where I said that I was responding to what TE claimed about posters here.
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Exactly, Ang. That is what TE regularly does to monopolize conversations, try to make people here who support public education look bad and to promote privatization. I am so sick of seeing this over and over again!
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I do try to keep my posts short, and each one is custom typed. I learned long ago that if my posts are the length or frequency of, say Robert Sheperd’s posts, Dr. Ravitch will delete them.
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TE, I don’t believe I ever deleted a post of yours. I once asked you to stop mo opposing the comments section, but that was not a deletion.
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You did delete several. The longest was in a discussion between Duane Swacker and myself when he was asking about measures of poverty and if they changed over time. I posted a lengthy quote from the first poverty survey done in England describing the circumstances under which a person was considered poor in the survey. You deleted that entry, along with several others made about the same time.
There was also the unfortunate Spradling post where the whole thread disappeared for a time, but I think you eventually put it back up.
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Ang, Leave it to TE to pull one quote from you about $ for “gadgets” out of context. There were many folks there weighing in on both sides of the matter, but we’re not going to be sent quotes from TE of the statements supporting technology, since he is intentionally wearing blinders.
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I did, of course, provide the context by providing the link. More complete than reproducing the entire thread. Do you think the quote unfair? How?
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To paraphrase Diane, TE:
Our Brilliant Adults: Stop Bashing Our ‘Frequent Posters’
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Who is bashing? If I characterized most frequent posters here as being against the CCSS would that be bashing? If i characterized most frequent posters here as being against charter schools would that be bashing? Would my brush be too broad?
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Each of the pages that you linked to show a broad range of concerns and supports for technology expressed by people. Opposition to online courses for children is a far cry from demonstrating that “frequent posters here object to the use of technology in schools.”
Clearly, you are so in love with online courses for kids and so blind to the possibility that they might be detrimental to them that you could not care less about what even the former online teacher described about her experiences with K12 Inc..
Enough already with inferring that people here are Luddites, trying to speak for “frequent posters” and your constant take on the “orthodoxy” of this blog. No one needs you to summarize what they have written, especially when what you say about them is so skewed. And, yes, such innuendo does amount to bashing.
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I am truly unsure as to how my statements became misinterpreted to be referring to online courses, but TE has a way of taking most ideas and shifting them so that he can make his talking points.
As I responded to the original discussion, my thoughts were that the access to technology in the home as well as school impacts opportunity for students and their parents to find success of any sort in this society.
If schools don’t have the money for the tools to practice for and take the mandatory tests, students are at a disadvantage. Not having access at home is likewise limiting. Poverty impacts access.
Supporting some use of technology does not equal supporting punitive tests. However, if these tests are to mean anything at all, poor and rural students who , for whatever reasons, have limited access to some tech are at a disadvantage. And, for many jobs, the use of computer tecnology is essential.
Options for online learning for specific student needs can be a good thing. Supplanting a student-teacher relationship with this type of learning doesn’t seem to be healthy. But , yes, those relationships aren’t always ideal, either. Friction can result in any type of learning experience. Online courses may or may not be good. There are no guarantees.
It is sad that the use of technology to do some jobs more quickly has resulted in business decisions that put false efficiencies and individual “productivity” at levels that are difficult to sustain.
We have more data produced by less people concerning more and more people. It is used to market “wants” as “needs”. Yet, people as individuals are mattering less than bottom line stockpiling of uncirculating dollars. Those in charge simply don’t seem to care as long as they are in control.
In any case, I think the real premise of the original statements were simply referring to the disadvantaged group of people who don’t have access to technology and who will have difficulty at school and at home if they are systematically shut out of the tech driven world.
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TE just acts like an economist. He asks questions designed to identify and test the often unspoken assumptions that our assertions rely on. I think a lot of people find this very annoying because (1) our unspoken assumptions are often not well-defined and are more difficult to justify than we have, well, assumed; and (2) they don’t like the power dynamic of this type of questioning to begin with. I usually find it interesting, but that may partly be because I also enjoy the sport of scrutinizing unspoken assumptions, and I don’t mind going under the knife.
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Flerp! Maybe I’ve missed it, but I can’t recall seeing you under TE’s knife.
I think you give him way too much credit. Virtually everything TE says is part of his ongoing campaign for “school choice.”
To this end, sacrificing public education to privatization is no problem for him. He is a thinly veiled libertarian who believes the individual always trumps the good of humanity.
If that means throwing communities, children, parents, teachers and “frequent posters” under the bus, so be it.
He believes in the “tyranny of the majority.” He expresses no concern about the tyranny of the minority –which is not just some fantom future but the plutocracy that actually rules our country and education today. He is fine with acting as a tool for them.
He thinks that he can “avoid saying anything about people here.” Actually, he regularly targets groups, such as those he sees as representing “the orthodoxy” here, i.e., supporters of public education.
I think that how Krugman pegged economists who end up on the wrong side of the fence applies to TE (Thanks for posting this, Susan!) “So most… have responded to the failure of their prediction by becoming more, not less, extreme in their dogma, which will make it even harder for them ever to admit that they, and the political movement they serve, have been wrong all along.”
TE has dug in his heels as the Internet troll who deliberately posts provocative messages that are intended to stir emotions, sow discord, and disrupt and monopolize discussions, in order to promote his cause. Many of us who have been on this blog since the beginning have felt bombarded by his unrelenting posts, which seem to demonstrate an escalating adherence to the extreme dogma governing education in our nation.
This has been going on just about every day for two years now. Some of us are really sick and tired of that and are not going to take it anymore. So right backatcha, TE; you reap what you sow…
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I attempted to be nice, to find something to agree upon with a couple people who post here with those same disruptive observations, but it has been impossible.
When a person picks out a phrase, twists it out of context to make a “point”, then tries to make a person look shallow, it becomes an effort in futility to carry on a “conversation”.
It is truly exhausting to anyone who thinks that we are traveling down a road, putting the cart before the horse, and disassembling years of research and efforts to meet all needs. I honestly think that some people do not want a nation at all.
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I have also commented frequently in favor of peer evaluation of teaching, argued that we need to pay attention to how poverty is measured in studies about poverty, explained how the academic publishing world works in the discussion about the Chetty paper, explained the GINI coefficient to LP, explained that correlation never proves causation to Duane, tried to explain why Wilson’s points are empty by applying them to the unreliability of temperature measurements to Duane as well, passed on some tools for inverting the classroom (educrations and cast-o-matic), tried to explain to Harlan that firms exist because markets fail, so government is certainly not the cause of most market failures, and argued that the remarkably fast acceptance of the right to marry is in fact important and indicates that society is moving in the right direction in at least some dimensions.
I have also argued that treating students as individuals is not consistent with assigning them to schools based on street address, and I have tried to start a conversation to find out where the consensus about choice for high school students within a building paid for by taxpayers funds breaks down.
That is what I could come up with on short notice, but I am sure there are other points as well.
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Cosmic Tinker, Flerp, Deb TE and all of you who write so sincerely Diane’s blog:
You folks don’t know me yet, as I have only been here for 3 weeks. I have been thrilled to discover wonderful conversations about education, philosophy and our country’s dilemmas. I have something wonderful for all of you, which I discovered on RA Animate, a Youtube feed which I get. Don’t miss this video. Trust me.
There is a part where ‘healthy disagreement,’ is compared to “unhealthy habit of public disparagement” but the entire piece addresses the change that has occurred in our society and its effect on discourse.
It is time “to resist our tendencies to make RIGHT or TRUE that which is merely familiar to us, and WRONG or FALSE, that which is only strange.” I think that is time “to have a relationship with our own reactions then to be captive to them.”
I love the thought that” Fostering empathetic capacity is important to achieving a world of citizens at peace with each other and themselves.”
It is not just here, but at other blogs where genuine conversation is in progress and people for whom “allegiance to false doctrines” and dogma despite “overwhelming evidence to the contrary” has “become a badge of personal identity.” Frankly , I am exhausted and bored to tears with the blind and the deaf “who will not admit mistakes and select “facts to support misconceptions,” “doubling down when they are challenged by argument of the facts” (as Krugman put it.)
AND, By the way, for those of you who do not know my new voice here, take a look at my authors page at Oped News, http://www.opednews.com/author/author40790.html
where you can see what I posted over the past few years, by clicking on the blue button that says “quicklinks” (after my resume); then you can peruse the links that I have posted You will not find dogma or blind allegiance in any of them.
I have only written 5 articles there, accessed by the article buttons, and my favorites are “Bamboolze Them”
http://www.opednews.com/articles/BAMBOOZLE-THEM-where-tea-by-Susan-Lee-Schwartz-110524-511.html
and Magic Elixir.”
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Magic-Elixir-No-Evidence-by-Susan-Lee-Schwartz-130312-433.html
There is also a button to see the commentary that I add to the articles I post, and to the threads that I join. There are long threads by authentic voices by people who look for solutions.
On that NEWSsite, by the way, people who disrupt conversations with disparagement (rather than argument with solid LINKS to facts) are not appreciated by the publisher, who makes it very clear as to what qualifies as truth must be supported by evidence (links). He has told me that I am a “trusted voice” there, which means not that I parrot some dogma, but that I consistently look for observable reality… truth. I hope you find that what I say here is authentic and genuine; I am proud to join those voices here which “seek to enhance rather than diminish universal sentiment,”
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Over a year ago. Diane and others called out TE for being a “Johnny One Note,” because of his never ending posts about school choice. So he expanded his repertoire somewhat, but he still regularly turns conversations back to the topic of school choice. He often misrepresents and discredits supporters of public education in the process, such as his inaccurate portrayal that “frequent posters object to the use of technology in schools,” due to his support for online courses.
After reading and being involved in many conversations with TE, it is clear that he simply does not care about the fact that school choice is a ruse that is serving as a critical component of the business plan to privatize public education across America. He allows himself to be a tool of those who aim to destroy public education and he is, therefore, culpable for it.
I have witnessed this destruction in my city and, as a concerned citizen and product of public schools, I find the destruction of public education intolerable. I will rage against it for as long as I have breath, but there is nothing pleasant about this ongoing resistance to corporate tools like TE.
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I discovered this blog almost at its first breath. So I have had various “discussions” with him. I have been in similar discussions with a couple others on here. They come off as “lecturing” me as if I am not “explaining myself clearly” or simply misinformed or as part of the “whiners”. It is truly tiresome and a waste of time. I don’t particularly want to engage in defensive discussions on a blog that is not about me or my input. As I said long ago, it becomes like the never ending moebius strip. Questions. Questions. Questions. He can find them and keep the answers on his notepad!
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Cosmic,
Here is a discussion from 2012 about peer evaluation of teaching between myself and poster LG that I found very informative:
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And another:
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And here from 2013
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And another from 2013
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You are certainly free to think what you want.
It is my impression is that most folks here are in favor of district or even building independence. Some of us just go one level further when we acknowledge that one school does not fit all, and building independence is only possible if students are allowed to choose the building.
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It is the way you state it. Or, rather, asking questions to which already have a preconceived answer.
Our school has many tech options. Has for years.
The problem with “universal choice” is transportation and management of just what students think they want to do..and who pays for it.
Maybe kids should just take on total responsibility for what courses they take and where they take them and how they pay for transportation. And while they are at it, why not just skip graduation from an institution. Gather a bunch of personalized certificates from all over the internet and all over the state where the kids at end. Cobble together an education and go to a college that will accept those certificates. I doubt if most families would want to embrace such craziness. But if it works for you, go for it. Make it work, if you can. It isn’t a solution for the vast majority of students , and it shouldn’t be paid for by the public. Going out on some private venture in education is your right but you can foot the bill. The citizens who can’t afford all kinds of options need the best that public education can provide. The trouble is some parents are never satisfied.
I am more concerned about all those who don’t have an advocate who can give the children what they need to survive.
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“Some of us just go one level further… building independence…”
And there you have it, folks, the constant harangue of TE’s ideological thinking, including the promotion of the individual over the community and support for privatized schools over public education. A rather simplistic view for an educated person, but that is how selfishness works.
No matter what he has been told in readings and by many people here who’ve personally experienced what that has meant in their districts:
No matter that those independent schools in most locations are privately managed with appointed, not democratically elected, school boards, often stacked with people from far away;
No matter that few of those schools have PTAs or PTOs and
No matter that they are are unaccountable, unregulated and unsupervised; and
No matter that those schools siphon funds and resources from local public schools and
No matter that they attract get rich quick charlatans and hucksters (he’s got a short list of a few exceptions that he parades around) and
No matter about the for-profits and
No matter about the non-profit profiteers and all their non-educator executives earning outrageous six figure incomes and
No matter about all the no-excuses military style test prep factories for children of color and
No matter that so many of those schools are staffed with 5 week trained TFAers and
No matter that quality and test scores are questionable at best and
No matter that those schools have been replacing neighborhood public schools across the nation, so families no longer have the choice of a school nearby which will accept all children in the community.
Etc., etc., etc…
And, BTW, independent school is just another name for private school.
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Why do you waste so much time on arguing with such people who misrepresent observable reality. They need to get a life and find somewhere else to peddle their opinions and disparagements. Your time is to valuable.
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Excellent advice. Folks can look at my posts if they wish and draw their own conclusions.
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How ironic of you, as you are well aware I was addressing you.
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Susan,
It is helpful if you name the person. Many folks (including me) respond via email. I am responding to your comment and it will be inserted right below your comment. Someone else responding to your comment earlier is now below this response. It is hard to keep track.
Again, I always work to provide arguments for positions and address arguments given seriously. I don’t know how else a blog might work to create a better education for all.
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I admit, this confuses me. How do you respond by emails. At Oped News we can get a message, where we can exchange emails. Am I missing something here. Forgive me. I am new to this blog.
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Cosmic is exactly right in his response below.
If I write comment A and you respond with comment B, initially your will follow mine in the column. Say another poster is following via email and responds to my post A with comment C, and I respond to comment C with comment D. The column now looks like this:
A
C
D
B
Your response to my comment A is now pushed down in the column and might appear to be a comment on comment D. This might continue for a while in a thread that received many responses.
Earlier in the life of the blog Dr. Ravitch had it set so that all comments would indent below the posts. This minimized the confusion of which post a commenter was commenting about, but resulted in many comments that were so far indented that each line only contained a single word and became very difficult to read.
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aggggh!
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The alternative is to scroll through a large number of entries that have a single word on each line. On the whole I think this works better.
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I am going to take some very good advice and let people view my past posts and come to their own concussions about the variety of things I post about.
One interesting point you raise: independent schools is synonymous with private school. Posters that advocate for building level autonomy might think about why public schools can not traditionally be independent.
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Give it up. You are wrong, and putting forth such flawed arguments is the problem. They are privatizing education In one way or another, and this closes the door to opportunity. The NY Times Magazine cover story this Sunday shows how inequality does this.
Make sense. Speak truth. Give evidence and no one will have to go back to old posts to know that you understand the difference between OBSERVABLE REALITY and personal perspective.
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Susan,
If you are responding to me, I typically provide concrete examples in my posts. When I talk about virtual classes I give an example of a program that I think is effective, I speak of a child’s experience taking a K12 class, I point out that the majority of the high schools in my state have fewer than 250 students, and refer to my experience teaching such classes at the post secondary level. When I post about choice schools, I give arguments that take the reasons folks have to be against charter schools seriously and point out that they might be reasons to be against some charter schools and not others, to be in favor of more regulation of charter schools, or to be against all choice schools, including magnet schools. When appropriate, I provide links to the admission procedures at limited admission public magnet schools and the rich curriculum they provide and make available to very few students.
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You make good points and I agree. The danger with generalizations is that they can be broken down. The issue for me is that public schools were working until the profiteers saw dollar signs, and th oligarchs said, “hey, let’s take control of the eduction of these citizens and make them even more ignorant then they are. They made a working gpulic education system, into a failing one.
TE, Did you watch the grassroots movie. May I suggest that you get past the opening and watch it. It is exactly what happened in NYC so the charter schools could push out the public schools. You won’t regret it…. I promise.
.
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Susan’s advice was directed towards TE?
LOL!
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Susan, If you sign up to “Follow,” then you are notified by email of posts and, when you respond, your reply will go under the post you are responding to. (You don’t receive the email addresses of others or communicate with them via email; that’s all done on the blog.)
I felt overwhelmed by all the emails and no longer follow, thus my response posts and those from others like me don’t always end up beneath the posts we are responding to, so many posts are out of order. Adding the name of the person you are replying to would help, because I didn’t know for sure who your advice was meant for either, but I suspected it was for me.
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Yes deb the reply was for you. Thanks for explaining.
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Reblogged this on Centerville United for Responsible Education and commented:
Food for thought.
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