Noelle Roni, who was principal of the Peak to Peak Charter School, says she was fired for trying to stop a practice that humiliated children.
“Noelle Roni was the principal of Peak to Peak Elementary School for more than eight years before being abruptly fired last November. Roni says that higher-ups at the school became angry with her when she demanded that cafeteria workers stop stamping the hands of children who did not have enough money in their account to pay for lunch, according to CBS Denver.
“Although the charter school is allowed to set its own policies, other schools in the Denver area notify parents when students do not have money for lunch, rather than stamping their hands, according to Colorado outlet the Daily Camera. Roni reportedly was told that some children were too embarrassed to go through the lunch line because of the practice.
“The kids are humiliated. They’re branded. It’s disrespectful. Where’s the human compassion? And these are little children,” Roni said to CBS Denver.”
Commentary: there is often a good reason for regulations to protect children, the same regulations that charters are free to ignore.

Ed reform lobbyists set to hit Texas hard next cycle:
“TER PAC’s treasurer is listed as Doug Foshee, who is the former CEO of El Paso Corporation, which was among the largest producers of natural gas in North America until another energy company acquired it in 2011. Foshee is also a trustee of the Houston-based KIPP charter school network.
He is one of many Texas political and business leaders who sit on the group’s board, including homebuilder and tort reform champion Dick Weekley, Texans for Lawsuit Reform PAC chairman Dick Trabulsi, former U.S. Secretary of Education Rod Paige and former Senate Education Chairwoman Florence Shapiro, a Plano Republican who stepped down in 2011. El Paso businessman Woody Hunt and hedge fund manager Salem Abraham, who is a longtime member of the Canadian Independent School District’s board, are also among its supporters.
Its efforts were coupled with those of another newcomer, Texans Deserve Great Schools, a nonprofit coalition that includes the Laura and John Arnold Foundation, which has invested millions in Houston and Louisiana charter schools, and the San Antonio-based Brackenridge Foundation, which is part of a $30 million campaign to bring more charters to the city.”
Online ed is a huge focus, which I already knew, judging by Duncan/Bush promotions. What’s surprising to me is they’re allied with “tort reform” now.
What possible interest to do ed reformers have in barring the door to courtrooms for ordinary people? Tort reform? Really?
Also, as usual, not a word out of any of them on “improving” existing public schools. Not one word. It’s all charters and vouchers and online ed.
http://www.texastribune.org/2014/01/08/education-reform-group-mobilizes-2014-elections/
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More than anything, when I read something like this, I am disgusted by people like this that claim to be “educators”.
Ms. Roni apparently became fed up with the practice and took a stand against this unfair and humiliating procedure. She was fired for her principles and advocacy. The charter school board is standing by what they did to Ms. Roni, though they say that they have discontinued the hand stamping practice.
If Ms. Roni didn’t stand up for her students, and the light of the media wasn’t directed at this school for her unfair termination, would the directors of the school have continued this policy?
I have no doubt that they would have. Perhaps the Board of this school should be reflecting on what it is that they are REALLY teaching their students by their actions. SHAME on all of you, Board of Peak to Peak Charter School
.www.newsmax.com/TheWire/principal-noelle-roni-fired… Cached
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at Joan.. “perhaps the board should be fired and Roni reinstated” …this would certainly be a good model for the students as opposed to the current one!
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Student and teacher abuse is well and alive in Charter schools. This is crazy.
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Student and teacher abuse is alive and well in public schools also, especially with grade level inappropriate “standards”, teaching to the tests and many other abusive educational malpractices.
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Amen Duane Swacker. Spoken like a teacher who knows!
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I think we should stamp Obama’s head in permanent ink with some kind of shame labeling.
The only person or people who should be branded are those who are out with a vengeance to replace public schooling and it’s adequate resourcing with privately managed charters.
Ditto for Mrs. Obama, another charter glutton. Ditto for all their inner power circles who are in on this predatory campaign.
But with regard to this principal, I hope she launches a suit and wins . . . . .
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Ditto for charter proponents trolling here.
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I’m sorry. I’m not always the best at interpreting language from time to time.
Was I / Am I trolling here?
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Haven’t seen any posts here that could be categorized as such.
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You silly Robert, she means ME.
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I’m jealous, Harlan.
I would not exactly characterize you as a troll.
There are more accurate, although unacceptable words reserved for such an effort . . . .
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Besides, Harlan, you worked in a private school, not a charter school. They really are not the same thing in many regards . . . .
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“In Internet slang, a troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
Harlan is just one amongst an ever growing number of trolls here –and it has nothing to do with him coming from private education.
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So, Cosmic, Harlan is therefore not responsible for his mindset, his words, and his style?
Please clarify . . . .
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I don’t know what you are talking about, Robert.
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Cosmic, I assumed you were referring to me as one of the trolls. .. this is what I meant.
Also, I thought you meant that HU’s rhetoric had nothing to do with him, but had all to do with private education.
I misinterpreted your note and had to go back and do – uh oh – a close read . . . .
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Robert:
Ms. Roni HAS launched a lawsuit. I hope she wins, too. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if all of the parents of this charter school threw their support behind her?
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Joan, I am not a fan of charters at all unless they are heavily unionized.
However, this principal, I agree, deserves better. Parents ought to sue the school on behalf of their abused children attending it . . . . .
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Unions are not going to stop charters from siphoning public funds and creating a two tier system of public education.
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Unions could very well help stabilize the work force within charters, which would in turn, help in apportioning budgets, allocating resources, and amking sure teachers are treated with respect, dignity, and fairness.
Also, who is to say that a strong union cannot build in checks and balances contractually into the kind of corruption you speak of, a veritable reality.
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Some charters are already unionized, including with 5 eeek trained temps from Teach For America, which is why Randi has said she supports TFA. Unionization has done nothing to change charters or the two tier system and, to the best of my knowledge, does not even aim to address that.
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I remind viewers of this thread about Adell Cothorne [google if you don’t remember her].
I have a cage-busting, achievement gap-crushing, innovative idea for charter schools:
DUE PROCESS. Enforced by law and/or contractual obligation [as in the contracts of unions or professional organizations].
That way you would afford some protections to people in a school so that they would be in a better position to advocate for and defend the children there from abusive behavior. For example, for those moments when a specially favored staff member has the mouths of dozens of small children taped shut for her convenience and makes them bleed, later snickering about it as a trivial faux pas.
Irrelevant example?
Not RHEEally…
😎
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Union protections are important, but they aren’t really necessary for reporting child abuse and neglect. Teachers are mandated in all states to file reports and states have a whistle blower’s clause. Teachers can also request that their name not be released when they file a report, so the name of the teacher remains anonymous to all but state authorities.
I did that when I taught at a non-union school where children were not being treated properly by administrators, who set the tone, and some teachers, who followed along. My name was kept anonymous. I actually had to report them a few times. Once, the administrators figured out that I had filed the report. I denied it, but I also rather nonchalantly told them about the whistle blower’s clause. That seemed to rattle them and was sufficient enough for them to drop the matter and I kept my job.
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As for the Obamas – the President appeared at the Harlem Children’s Zone Academy recently, operated by Geoffrey Canada. Don’t hold your breath here….
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-promise-zone-initiative-not... Cached
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I have spoken to Geoffrey on two occasions when he has done presentations. His school is a great facility, and his teacher turnover rate, despite non-unionized teachers making upwards of $150,000 per annum, is a disaster because of burnout.
Someting he does not like to advertise, Mr. American Express print commercial himself . . . .
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The thing that happened to this principal has been going on for a VERY long time. I know – experienced the same kind of mindless political ignorance linked with power some 30 decades ago.
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30 years ago was before any charter law, right Gordon?
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Mr. Wilder may not have been referring necessarily to something that happened in a charter school . . . .
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Hi Robert, just checking…even before I finished the story I knew Joe would appear and find a way to defend the charter movement somehow.
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Linda,
What does Joe bright-eyed-and-bushy-tailed think about heavy unionization infiltrating charters? Teachers having a huge say in budgeting, curriculum, pedagogy, and internal policies?
Why should Eva Moskowitz make her behemoth salary when she does not even pay rent for her co-locations?
What does she need all that money for?
How many non-counterfeit handbags and botox can you purchase in one lifetime?
Joe? What do you think about unions in this context? You always seemd to be open minded about experimentation.
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Robert – From the very beginning, I’ve urged unions to start charters. Some union officials have asked for and received my help to do this. I’ve helped write laws that explicitly permit teachers in charters to join a union.
Moreover, some union leaders are very frustrated that their districts have not given the opportunities that Boston, NY and LA have given members to start non-charter options such as the Pilot Schools in Boston & LA, and the New Visions Schools in NYC. I think those options ought to be available too.
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If you close down your charter on a school day and strongly suggest the children and their parents march over a bridge to protest paying rent, that’s “grassroots” and demonstrates “choice”.
If you’re a parent who worked all day and go to your neighborhood school at night to speak at a BOE meeting, where they plan to turn your school over to a charter management company, you were manipulated by the union and the greedy, lazy, union thug teachers.
Get it!
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Those are your words, not mine.
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Wow. Thanks. I I didn’t know Joe.
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Those were not only Linda’s words, but those words comprise the reality out there. Charter schools should play by the same rules as public schools, not ifs, ands, or buts.
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All schools funded by the public don’t “pay by the same rules.” Many magnet schools use admissions tests. Many statewide and some regional schools use admissions tests. Some contract alternative schools don’t follow the same rules as district schools.
Then of course there are some suburban schools that prevent “those kids” from cities from entering. Fortunately in MInnesota, we really do believe in the idea that public schools should be open to all kids – with no admissions tests (except for a handful of district schools)
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Ridiculous arguments to promote charter schools abound. In many locations, there are no rules whatsoever for charters, yet charter proponents insist on comparing them with highly regulated public schools, including those serving special populations.
In education, fair means that students get what they need, not that everyone gets the same thing, particularly special populations, like kids who are gifted and talented, who need more appropriate challenges than what teachers can provide in overcrowded general education classrooms. Most large school systems have a “handful of district schools” that use admissions tests in order to adequately serve such special populations.
And when districts are funded by property taxes, there are no incentives for the usually more heavily taxed suburbs to accept kids from the city.
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Reteach, what is are one or two examples of the “many locations in which there are no rules whatsoever” for charters?
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Joe,
Here are some places:
Louisiana—and New Orleans, in particular—where officials in charge of oversight of charter schools, and who could investigate and sanction corrupt operators, but instead steadfastly refuse to investigate when parents and others provide information that would warrant and investigation.
Ditto Florida.
Ditto Michigan.
In Los Angeles, the level of corruption required for such action is staggeringly high… so the canard “charter schools can be closed” is a hollow phrase not consistent with reality.
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Charters have been closed in each of the states you listed.
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Yeah, but with what degree of difficulty?
And how rare are those closings?
The politicians in those states are so bought off by the charter industry that the threshold for closing a charter is stratospheric in those three states, and countless others.
And also, by the time that they’re closed, how many millions have gone down the drain, and how many children’s educations were damaged, perhaps irreparably.
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Jack, the rules for getting to LA magnets are very complex. So far you have not acknowledged that.
You assert that there are no rules in many communities – then I point out that charters have been closed in each of the communities you asserted didn’t have rules.
FYI – Our children attended urban inner city public district schools with no admissions tests.
I have spent lots of time with progressive district educators in LA who are deeply frustrated by the system.
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Granted “no rules whatsoever” is an overstatement, but there are a lot of exemptions from laws and regulations for charter schools across the country, as listed by state here, “Automatic Exemptions from Many State and District Laws and Regulations”
http://www.publiccharters.org/law/ViewComponent.aspx?comp=16
However, the above site does not address exemptions from important laws and regulations that are intended to prevent corruption, such as regarding insider dealing, political favoritism, cronyism and nepotism, which are some of the critical elements driving charter growth and funding across this nation. In Chicago, UNO charters CEO Juan Rangel got away with all of the above because the laws don’t apply to charters.
The reason Rangel ultimately got in hot water was only because it turned out that, when the state gave him $98M –out of a total of $280M in public funds over the past 5 years– it included a clause indicating that he was to disclose all conflicts of interest and apparently he overlooked that. Ostensibly, he could have just made a list and continued on his merry way.
http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/February-2014/uno-juan-rangel/ (The fact that Rangel co-chaired the mayor’s 2011 election campaign, even though such involvement in politics is illegal for CEOs of 501(c)3s, has yet to be addressed by the authorities –and probably never will be.)
Political clout has been fueling the growth and funding of other charters as well, so some in IL have demanded the state “Halt Broken Charter School Expansion Process” http://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/ward-room/Opinion-Halt-Broken-Charter-School-Expansion-Process-237154731.html#ixzz2pArlMR7t
And across the nation: “The Truth About Charter Schools: Padded Cells, Corruption, Lousy Instruction and Worse Results” http://www.salon.com/2014/01/10/the_truth_about_charter_schools_padded_cells_corruption_lousy_instruction_and_worse_results/
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Joe,
The NY Times reported several months ago that 19% of the charter schools slated for closing do not get closed because the agencies overseeing them turn the other way and pretend that nothing wrong is happening. . . . all in the name of monied interests.
Charters receive special treatment.
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Robert, I’d be glad to take a look at the article, or even better the report on which the article is based, and then comment. Authorizing of charters is not perfect, certainly glad to admit that. You imply that 81% of the time low performing charters have been closed. But I would like to see the report.
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Joe, why do we want schools to close? Isn’t that traumatic for kids – having to move from place to place, leaving friends and teachers behind – and bad for communities? I would rather schools were properly resourced and supported so that they didn’t have to close. I never understood why people who support charters use closing schools – even ones people claim are “failing” – as a tactic, especially when the school that replaces them usually also fails. Doesn’t make any sense to me.
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Many of us view closing schools as a last resort. Yes, funds and other ta ought to be invested for several years before a decision is made to keep open, or close a school based on how well the students are doing.
But some schools are dysfunctional, even after significant $ are invested in them. Some have incompetent principals. Some have warring factions among the faculty.
Also, if a school district enrollment goes from, for example, 40,000 to 20,000, should it keep the same number of schools open?
Another option could be sharing facilities with social service agencies and other groups. They can help provide services to families and help pay for heat, light and security.
Closing schools should be a last resort only after lots of other things things have been tried.
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30 decades ago? Would love to hear about your fitness and diet regime – I’m impressed!
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Don’t be surprised. How otherwise do we explain the undead vampires like Michelle Rhee?
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Just checked. I said “30 years ago.”
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Joe, Read higher above. You changed what the original poster said –who probably meant 30 years ago but actually wrote “30 decades ago”.
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Diane,
At some point it would be very helpful to those in BLoomington, In if you do a blog piece about Fairview Elementary in Bloomington In. This is the school that is under the lens due to accountability pressures and it’s a school that has tried to find creative ways to respond to the needs of the student population. Unfortunately parents are concerned because last minute changes are taking place without including parents in the dialogues and most likely based n the fact that this school continues to be rated and F school. Here is one blog post by a parent that explains their perspective. http://beardybearderson.wordpress.com/2014/01/11/fairview-elementary-school/#comment-45
Thanks for all that you do! Gina
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I am glad to read of this Principal’s stand based on the principle of compassion…and hope that in her eight years of supporting her charter school she used compassion in every instance of issues presented for her adjudication.
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I would recommend that Noelle Roni beconsidered to join Dr. Ravitch’s Heroe’s List based on her courage in standing up for the dignity of “her children”.
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when I was teaching 2nd grade the workers in the cafetoria would “dole ” out the food on plates and some of the children would get the chicken back; that is how the cafeteria made its profit that week. I would send the child back “my teacher says I need something more than soup bones”…. fortunately the pricnipal in the building defended me and I was never called “on the carpet”…. also, it was passive aggressive for me to send the child back to the head of the cafeteria… now that I am older I would accompany the chid (not send him back alone) and I would go directly to the principal’s office and just skip the cafeteria head…. This was a very affluent town in the outskirts of Boston MA so there was absolutely no need for the child to receive chicken back (with no meat) while others got some “meaty” part. Today in Cambridge MA and Cambridge port the staff are sending children home with backpacks for food for the weekend because children are in desperate straits when it comes to food and hunger. If you need me to come and hold a picket sign, teachers have to stand up to the mean-spirited people who deny children food for any reason…. I know a lot of people are afraid of losing their jobs; I was very fortunate to have the best principal in the world (when I taught 2nd grade)… jeanhaverhill@aol.com
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volunteering at the church food bank I was aware of many incidents; my colleague set up a summer reading program and the children who came to the school for the week were able to receive nutritious snacks; in some states you can qualify your program in the summer for state funds; I imagine the Cambridge schools are using some state funds to send home the food for the weekends (story was on NPR yesterday — Friday) ; if anyone wants more details I would be pleased to seek it out. jeanhaverhill@aol.com this was one of the priorities we had with our church food bank and 14 churches also sponsored the women’s and children’s shelter for homeless…. that same city today has two missing children one on amber alert and also one presumed dead (most likely murdered) and as teachers and professionals we cannot stand by….
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takepart.com has this story “Op-Ed: Facing the Hunger Crisis in Cambridge, MA
Despite its Ivy League reputation, food insecurity exists in Harvard’s hometown—as it does almost everywhere.” it was featured on NPR yesterday (in Boston station WBUR the BU station at 90.9)
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article today at “Think Progress”
Doctors Slam Proposed Food Stamp Cuts: ‘The Dumbest Thing You Can Do Is Cut Nutrition’
quotes doctors from Boston Medical Center
This mean-spirited attitude permeates our culture; it is a false notion of “who is deserving” in this country; no child should be going without food. The charter school wants to shame the child and they want the child to leave the school (their gated community)…. it is the same kind of bullying that we experience in our culture and through the media bombarding us…. I have to mention here the Khmer Rouge who tried to destroy the will of citizens: “your life has no meaning and your death has no significance”…. as teachers we need to gather to support the unions and the people fighting for a decent wage and for more jobs. I’m tired of hearing the “crap” about the deficit; politics is about setting priorities for budgets and allocating resources; the politicians find money when they want to start the next war ….. teachers need to be visible in this fight; I keep telling people that the union message (this fall/last summer) in Boston and Chicago was also about having nurses on site in the schools not just about more money for paychecks for teachers…. the proletariat in this country had better start working together and not dividing between “us and them”…. that is savage politics….. I give you for an example the Boeing machinists and others who are losing out on benefits and pensions and the erosion of the middle class; this week I hope to buy the book by Hedrick Smith on the loss of the “American Dream”….
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What the charters do when faced with such a lawsuit is that they will then claim that they are not “public” entities subject to law such as IDEA. No, their lawyers then argue that these schools essentially “private” schools that can do as they please.
So it’s the profiteering, free market, voucher-supporters’ dream— a system of what, in actual practice, are effectively “private schools” …
— with no accountability or transparency to the public via a democratically-elected school board having any oversight of these schools…
— with no elected school board providing any oversight that will prevent any corruption in the first place, or sanction such corruption—close the schools, fire the perpetrators—if and when it occurs
— with no responsibility to follow any laws or curriculum/testing (i.e. Common Core) that public schools are required to follow
— with a creamed student body made up of easiest-to-eduate students
… and all of this funded with public money.
The only thing “public” about these schools is the money that funds them.
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Jack:
Since it is the public that funds these schools, shouldn’t voters have a say regarding whether or not charter schools should be funded by our tax dollars?
I’ve never seen this issue addressed.
Any information that you have regarding my question would be much appreciated.
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Sarah, voters elect state and federal legislators, who make many decisions about how your money is spent. You don’t get to decide how every $ in your state or this country is spent. That’s some of what state and federal legislators do.
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That’s true, but now we do have a say when it comes to how public schools spend money. Taking something like that away is pretty important. It’s almost like you don’t like democracy or don’t trust voters to be wise enough to actually make these decisions. Are you saying it is better to leave decisions like this to the wiser politicians? I don’t like that idea.
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MAP, I don’t know what state you are in. Many states have programs that are part of their public education program that are not controlled by local school boards. For example:
* statewide public schools for students who are deaf or blind
* statewide schools focused on the arts or math/science
* programs allowing high school students to take courses on college campuses, with state funds following students
All of these are have been approved by elected representatives of the people.
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None of those are what we are talking about here. We are talking about locally-controlled, neighborhood public schools. So I really don’t understand your point. Even in the cases you cite, I would want actual educators intimately involved in decisions about those types of programs, not just politicians.
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MAP, I thought we were talking about schools that are part of a state’s public education program. In that system, some decisions are made by local boards, some decisions are made by state legislators, some are made by Congress, some by the executive branch and some by the judicial branch.
Yes, I’m a huge fan of democracy and of separation of powers. It’s a myth that all decisions about public schools, even a local neighborhood public school, are made by local school boards.
For example, Congress decided that there should be equal opportunity for young women and young men in extracurriculars. That was fought fiercely by some local school boards but (fortunately), Title IX is the law of the land.
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Again, that isn’t what we are talking about. The local school in my community has always been run by our local school board. Of course, there are mandates and policies they have to follow (How charter schools and Title IX are the same, I don’t know. Of course, the idea of school “choice” began with white parents in the South trying to avoid Brown v. Bd. of Education. Yes, communities sometimes make bad decisions), but where the rubber meets the road the democratically elected school board makes the decisions. Our community has no say about charter schools coming into our neighborhoods – there was never a vote, not even a discussion – nor do we have any say in how they are run. Communities – not individuals, not the state, not the federal government – are the ultimate owners of local neighborhood schools. At least they used to be until the last few years. All of this double-talk and trying to evade the subject won’t change that.
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No MAP, your history is not accurate. School choice began well before southern efforts to evade desegregation. For example:
* Vermont and Maine gave families in some communities among schools more than 100 years ago
* Boston established Boston Latin school in 1635 as a publicly funded exam school
* Some families in the North East decided after world war II to move to suburbs so that there kids could go to school away from other people
* All of this happened well before the southern situation.
Your history is not accurate.
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I think my history is pretty accurate. There may have been small-scale experiments earlier, but what we are dealing with now is a direct descendant of the movement founded after Brown v. Board of Ed. Now, to be fair, the tactics of the charter school movement have changed. They no longer say that they want schools segregated – now not just by race, but also by class, religion, political views, ability – because they know that wouldn’t be popular. How any one compares that to giving a majority of the citizens in this country equal rights through Title IX is beyond me.
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MAP You ignore historical facts. Since I helped write the nation’s first charter law and have testified about district & charter public school options, I know a bit about what I am describing.
it also happens that I am a progressive Democrat with 3 kids who graduated from urban public schools.
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I’m sure there were cavemen who didn’t want their kids going to look at cave drawings with “those” kids, either. I’m not doubting your history, but prejudice and discrimination have been with us as long as there have been humans.
If you are a “liberal” Democrat you should be ashamed of yourself – just like Pres. Obama should – for supporting separate and unequal schools. I remember a time not too long ago when “liberal” Democrats opposed those types of policies. I understand that this whole movement is bi-partisan. That doesn’t make it right. There is still time to get on the right side of history, though, and support equal opportunity for ALL children through strong, community-run, neighborhood public schools.
I
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So you support and Separate and unequal schools – like the suburban “public” schools that hire detectives to keep kids from low income families out of their precious schools…or the “public” selective schools that use admissions tests to keep “those kids” out.
That’s part of your school board system.
Fortunately millions of kids (literally) have been able to get out of that system…more every year.
The right side of history is on expansion, not restriction of opportunity. That’s the history of America –
In education, that means, among other things not restricting people to whatever is available in their neighborhood.
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Nope, I’ve worked hard to get those kids into our suburban school district. My children have had great experiences going to schools with kids of all backgrounds. There is still a long way to go, but, you see, if there are problems you work to fix them, you don’t have a temper tantrum and take your ball and go home. In education, as in life, the goal should be to make sure that every child is healthy, safe, and has the same opportunities that kids in the suburbs have. That used to be what “liberal” Democrats believed in. I don’t really know what that makes you at this point.
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Ah – a suburban parent – why don’t you send your children to an urban public school
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Look, you use your kids as a way to somehow shield yourself from criticism. “My kids went to urban schools,” like that makes you some kind of expert or that you care more. If that helps you sleep better at night good for you. I ain’t playing that game. It’s insulting to claim that because someone lives in the suburbs they don’t care about children living in horrible poverty. If you really care about those kids you will stop talking about where your kids went to school and actually do something to make the lives and futures of children living in horrible conditions better (and stop allying yourself with others who have never cared about children in urban areas and never will.) You can start by reading Diane’s book and working to improve strong, neighborhood schools and communities for all children to grow up in. If you don’t do that it’s all just a bunch of hot air.
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Dear suburban parent – you still won’t say where, I’ve spent 40 years working for various justice issues. Unlike you, our family lives in a city. We don’t live in a suburb and try to restrict opportunities for kids.
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To map, Joe will never get off his high horse. He knows best. Only he works to improve education. You agree and worship or just give up. Been there done that. It’s predictable and boring. It’s all about Joe and his experiences. The rest of us know nothing.
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Lots of innovative educators and parents know a ton. I just offered a list.
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Now I am “suburban” parent like that is some kind of insult. Do you really have this attitude that all “suburban” parents are evil? Again, amazing.
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No – there are some very open minded suburban parents. They don’t blindly accept inaccurate versions of history. They have worked hard and successfully to create options for their own children and other people’s children.
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He got that tip from Arne. They follow the same playbook. Not very original either…vultures of a feather.
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MAP – you said you’re not sure what it makes me. It makes me a person who, unlike you, has sent 3 kids to non-selective urban public schools. Makes me a person who recognizes that there is not single best way to organize schools. Makes me a person who recognizes that American history is not just about accepting who the status quo – but about creating new approaches and new institutiosn.. Makes me an urban public school educator. Also makes me a person who newspapers have asked to write weekly columns about how to improve public schools
http://hometownsource.com/tag/joe-nathan/?category=columns-opinion
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Wow, I guess I should just shut-up then. I guess that’s why you think you are more capable than those people living in cities to run their own schools. If they would just listen to people like you instead of insisting on being able to vote everything would be wonderful. In fact, I guess they should just let you decide everything for them and give up their right to vote altogether. That would solve all of our problems to just let wise men like you take over the burden of thinking for us.
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No go ahead suburban parent – go ahead and vote. You might also learn from some educators, district and charter who have created wonderful options. You might want to read about the Boston Pilot Schools, or the NY New Visions Schools.
If you want to read about suburban district & charter options, you might want to read about the Zoo School in Apple Valley in Minnesota, or the French Immersion school in Edina Minnesota, or the Montessori Elementary in Forest Lake, Minnesota (all suburban district options).
Then there’s the Northwest Passage Charter, Coon Rapids or the Agricultural and Science School, Little Canada, or the Main Street School of Performing Arts (Hopkins, Mn), or DaVInci Charter (started by urban and suburban parents who tried to get their districts to do the “right thing” with their kids on the autism spectrum…and ultimately decided to create a charter to serve their kids.
These folks all recognized that there’s no single best school for all kids. You might trying reading about these places too.
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The arrogance is just breathtaking. I don’t know that I have ever experienced anything like it before. Wow!
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Map…arrogance exactly. Joe knows best and only Joe.
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Linda: It is the same arrogance that runs through the entire school “reform” cult-like movement. They know what’s right and everyone who disagrees with them is wrong. I don’t claim to be an expert, but I know darn well not to listen to someone who acts like this Joe character.
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Fortunately state legislators all over the country have listened to parents who want something different for their children – not just the neighborhood school.
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There are also catching on to the reformy charade and the goals of the privatizers. Keep rationalizing to make yourself relevant Joe.
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Meanwhile, the number of youngsters attending public school options continues to grow.
Families are figuring out that they can have options beyond the local neighborhood school – that includes district options as well as charters. Growing number of educators are seeing the value of offering options – both for themselves and for students.
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I skim and try to ignore. It’s always all about Joe. He should spend days in the classroom alone with middle school kids. They would take care of his ego.
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Been there. done that.
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Good night, Linda. I have to go. I have more important things to do. I thought I had heard and seen it all, but I guess you can always be surprised.
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Go find some great suburban options. You might enjoy them. Though it sounds like you are not open to taking a lot.
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Yes, map, the hubris can be very surprising. Listen to Linda. No matter what, Joe has already “been there, done that” and knows better than everyone else who has done it. Or his mother did it and now he’s an expert. Just ignore him and all the other trolls who are trying to sell corporate education “reform” and then deny that’s what they’re doing here.
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It is similar in many ways to when anyone tries to talk to Sean Hannity. If you question them they get increasingly angry until they start shouting. I call it being “Hannitized,” and it is classic bully behavior. I have come to expect it from people like Joe. It must be comforting to be so certain that you are right and everyone else is wrong. It doesn’t get you very far in actually solving problems, though.
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Fortunately, growing numbers of parents and educators realize the value of options. You can try hard to make this about me – but the facts are what I’m describing is growing all over the country.
Despite the love of traditionalists for the neighborhood public school, the number of educators and families making use of options is growing.
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All I made about you is, well, you. You are rude and arrogant and, quite frankly, a bully. Good night!
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Thanks for the good night wishes. Sorry you feel bullied.
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CT – as noted, growing numbers of district as well as charter educators are recognizing the value of offering options beyond the standardized tests.
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You need to go back Joe on a long term basis. You’re seriously out of touch. Your ego blinds you. Your “legend” is getting in the way.
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Right, Joe, as if anyone here is fighting for standardized tests.
Map, it’s government mandated standardization, including the Common Core and related standardized assessments, that’s now being used as incentives to propel families out of their neighborhood public schools and into charters, where the CC and related tests are not requirements, so that public education can continue to be privatized. In major cities, privatization is already a well established process now involving closing neighborhood schools for various erroneous reasons and replacing them with charters, so families no longer have the choice of a neighborhood school that will accept all children in the community and they are being forced to shop for a school where there are no democratically elected school boards.
People like Joe act as if privatization is needed for schools districts to provide choices. It is not, School districts have figured out different ways to give families choices within the school system, such as the 100 magnet cluster schools in Chicago.
Privatization is not about children, families or quality education. It’s about corrupt politicians relinquishing public responsibility to educate our citizenry to non-educator entrepreneurial profiteers and corporate raiders who are eager to get their hands on free public funds. Running privatized schools where there is very limited regulatory oversight and where parents have no democratic representation is a very low risk venture. To top it off, there is even a sizable tax benefit for investors in charter schools, so this is really all about money and power. See Charter Schools and the Profit Motive: http://jonathanturley.org/2013/03/16/charter-schools-and-the-profit-motive/
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CT – if you go back to the discussion you’ll see that a. I strongly support district options as well as charters. The other person in the discussion kept promoting neighborhood schools, not options.
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I never said I was against public school choice. I am against charter schools. Many, if not most, public schools offer choices to parents. I also support the original idea for charters, as experimental public schools where new ideas are tried out and shared with other public schools if they work. Charters are not public schools and they haven’t come up with any real innovations that I am aware of. (And no, longer hours, more tutoring, and applying more “will” are not innovations.) Mr. Nathan has all types of stereotypes in his head that he can’t keep straight I guess.
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Thanks for clarifying your support of public school choice As to innovations in charter schools, here are a few of many examples:
* Minnesota’s first (and only) Montessori senior high school which does many innovative things
* a group of schools that have teachers who work in the school the majority on the school’s board of directors. Thus, the teachers, like professionals in a number of other fields such as some law partnerships and farm cooperative; set their wages and working conditions
* School located in a downtown area sharing facilities with a local theater and city owned dance facility
* a elementary Chinese language immersion program that inspired some other districts to do open their own Chinese immersion schools
* a school using civil rights as a focus
* a school focusing on production of music videos that are so sophisticated a variety of companies and non-profit agencies have given them contracts to produce videos
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Those aren’t innovations in how children are taught and public schools offer many of the same types of programs. Why do we need charters to do this? These organizations could just as easily form partnerships with public schools.
And I forgot to mention, treating five and six-year-olds like they are all potential criminals from the day they walk into school, like they do in “no excuses” schools is not an innovation either. No suburban parent, as horrible as we are, would ever accept that for their children, why do charter supporters accept that for other people’s kids?
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People want their neighborhood schools, but in cities across America, the “choice” movement has been systematically replacing neighborhood schools with privatized charters and people are upset that they’ve been given no “choice” in this matter.
Considering this is being done on a grand scale, expanding from cities to suburbs, people can readily recognize today that this is the dismantling of public education in our country. The fact that this terrible irony does not alarm you and falls on your deaf ears just demonstrates how insensitive you are to people when the choice they select is their public neighborhood schools and not your beloved privatized charter schools.
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This is expanding public education. As noted (but ignored), our children attended urban district public schools.
I think families should have a variety of strong options in their neighborhood – which may include 2 or 3 different schools in the same building. Those could be district schools, charters or some combination.
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BS. It’s disgraceful that you would perpetuate that hoax even right here. Charters REPLACE public schools with privatized schools. Intelligent people know better than to fall for your fairytale.
People don’t care where you sent your kids. They care that they don’t have that same choice of a neighborhood school that you had as a result of your deceitful “choice” campaign.
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Before anyone gets suckered into believing Joe’s idealized version of several schools co-located in one building, take a look at how that played out in NY, with three schools in one building competing for limited resources and space: http://insidecolocation.tumblr.com/
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Here’s another example in NYC: http://www.jrec.org
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I worked at a school which had two schools co-located within it and I also live across the street from my neighborhood school which has three schools co-located within it, so I’ve had personal experience with this. It’s a nightmare, with each school competing for scarce space and resources –especially when one of the schools is a charter, because they are the darlings of bought politicians and they get preferential treatment.
See Leoni Haimson’s comments regarding co-locations in NY schools: http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/cantor-picks-schoolyard-fight-de-blasio
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The latest wrinkle in all this is that Charter associations are going to the wall to defend charter school officials, even when the corruption they perpetrate is beyond dispute:
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/oct/04/local/la-me-1005-charter-sentence-20131005
So you have this couple running a chain or charter schools who are as corrupt as the day is long, and are found guilty of criminal acts and sentenced to jail.
The Charter association argues that, no matter how heinous the actions… so what?… the schools are “non-profits”, so technically, “no crime” was committed:
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“Charter advocates followed the case closely. They said it could expose other operators to prosecution and could undermine the flexibility of California campuses that now enroll more than 410,000 students.
“The California Charter Schools Assn. filed a brief with the court seeking a new trial, contending that ‘there was no crime here.’
“For charter critics, however, the result is a long-overdue rebuke of what they say is an anything-goes mentality that sometimes abuses the public trust and drains resources from students.
“Charters are independently managed, publicly funded and exempt from some rules that apply to traditional schools.
” ‘The operators of charter schools cannot use public funds for their own personal use or else they will be prosecuted,’ said Los Angeles County Deputy Dist. Atty. Dana Aratani.
“Defense attorneys argued that charter schools — California has about 1,000 — should be treated as nonprofits, which have flexibility in spending money, provided that they are furthering the mission of the organization. The couple insisted that much of their questioned spending was for such activities as teacher appreciation, either group events or individual gestures, to build morale.”
” … ”
“Selivanov will appeal his sentence, said his attorney, Jeffrey H. Rutherford.
” ‘We maintain that this prosecution is driven by a fundamental misunderstanding of charter schools and how they operate,’ Rutherford said.”
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C’m’on, Diane. Get with the program. These days, child abuse is federal and state education POLICY.
Fire the nonabusers! Off with their heads! –M. Rhee
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Young children are not responsible for the finances of their parents. Kudos to Noelle for standing up to these discriminatory and bullying practices.
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Here’s another area where charters do children a great disservice: we had a parent in our elementary school (suburban NJ, high performing district) who insisted we retain her third grader. The principal refused. The child was performing at grade level, a very typical grade 3 student. The parent took the child out of the school and enrolled him in the charter school in town in third grade. So now the child is repeating the grade. Not only that, but his friend went with him. Another third grader who has no business repeating a grade enrolled in the charter. With research outlining the harmful effects of retention on students, the charter is willing to throw best practices out the window in order to poach students any way they can. Shameful.
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Well explains an unwritten rule set by an abusive charter school: it is ok to openly label and discriminate impoverished kids from ‘normal’ kids because they are ‘abnormal’ to char-tarred educators?
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And our tax money pays for this? My understanding is that if it is unethical in public school, it should be the same for any school funded by public money. Plain and simple. Where’s the Human Rights Commission on this one?
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BELOW is a COMMENT from a KIPP charter school alum who goes off the script and tells the truth about whether or not charters “weed out” lesser kids.
Jim Horn posted an interview with a former KIPP teacher who talks about how the kids were forced to sit on the floor for the first week of school… until they “earned” the right to have a desk… I kid you not:
http://www.schoolsmatter.info/2013/12/one-hundred-kipp-5th-graders-in-single.html
Below this is the Stockholm Syndrome-inspired COMMENT from the anonymous KIPP-ster in NYC… the Bronx, to be specific (it’s the fourth COMMENT down):
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KIPP BRONX ALUMNUS: “This (practice of him and other kids being forced to sit on the floor for a week and beg for a desk) is what builds TEAMWORK, which is the KIPP motto. It may seem militant to you, but in a system where kids are passed grades because the STATE doesn’t want to look bad, instead of letting the children EARN their education, you need this kind of attitude to weed out who is capable of completing the strenuous 7-5 pm accelerated curriculum that KIPPSTERS endure, not to mention the Saturdays spent if you are in a program like Capoeira or Orchestra. Don’t open your mouth until you UNDERSTAND what it is to be a KIPP student.” from -A KIPP ACADEMY ALUMNI. That’s In The SOUTH BRONX In Case You Would Like To Research Further, You Definitely Need To Jim.”
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Pretty creepy stuff. The mask really dropped from this guy’s face, didn’t it?
What’s that? A charter school alumnus comes clean and proudly brags about how charters like KIPP deliberately “weed out who is capable.” But how can that be? MS says such “weeding out” never happens in NYC’s charter schools.
Who’s telling the truth?
Well Jim Horn responded thusly,
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JIM HORN: “I don’t normally post anonymous comments, but your rant is so compelling that I could not resist. I think the key phrase in your comments comes from identifying KIPP’s purpose, which is to ‘weed out who is capable.’ As one of the obvious ‘capables,’ it would be normal for you to focus on that part of the equation. On the other side of the weeding are those who are self labeled as failures, which is a result of the ‘no excuses’ thought disorder that children are taught to absorbed by the corporate school model, along with their earned failure they are taught to stoically accept (failure comes to 40 to 60% of KIPPsters between fifth and eighth grade).
“I see, too, that you have absorbed some of the common verbal courtesies used at KIPP schools. But if I had endured what you have as a result of learning to embrace your oppressor, I would probably be more angry, still.”
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Re-reading this COMMENT shows what a first-class d-bag this KIPP alumnus is — bullying, condescending, controlling, threatening…
It’s kind of like in THE MASTER when Joaquin Phoenix got mad at someone at a party who criticized Phoenix’s L. Ron Hubbard-ish guru—played by Philip Seymour Hoffman—then tracked the guy down to his apartment and bead him senseless.
“you need this kind of attitude to weed out who is capable of completing the strenuous 7-5 pm accelerated curriculum that KIPPSTERS endure… ”
What is this? The Hitler Youth? Get over yourself, dude!
“Don’t open your mouth until you UNDERSTAND what it is to be a KIPP student.”
Oooohhhhh, I’m shaking… is this what passes for a debate of ideas at a KIPP school?
Newsflash: people having an intellectual discussion don’t appreciate some bullying d-bag
barking orders at them…
“Don’t open your mouth until you UNDERSTAND … ”
Yeah, well why don’t you SHUT your mouth instead! Better yet, bite me, you schmuck!
“That’s In The SOUTH BRONX In Case You Would Like To Research Further, You Definitely Need To Jim.”
Neither Jim nor I don’t “need to” do squat, you imbecilic jackball! And what’s with the SOUTH BRONX reference? Is that supposed to be some kind of … “if you’re tough enough to come here” kind of comment?
Whatever… is this an example of what KIPP produces?
By thy fruits, we shall know them
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Sadly, this reminds me of discussions I’ve had with African Americans about authoritarian discipline, when I have been told, “our kids need this.” No, that is your slave heritage talking (and, yes, also an element of Stockholm Syndrome.) No child “needs” to be abused.
There’s no excuse for the white TFA founders of “no-excuses” schools though. If they were going to establish and run their own schools for children, they should have learned that between the extremes of authoritarian and permissive discipline styles lies the much more humane and effective authoritative approach.
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What happened to this teacher is typical of “corporate ed reform”. The kids are the last concern – everything is about ease of making some procedure run well or “look good” despite the reality. How about principals making a decorative bulletin board on which to place scores on high stakes tests by grade and student. This is what happens in my district. This is almost as bad as “banding” kids who don’t have enough money for lunch who then fear getting in line for lunch.
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When I was a principal and a teacher hung a chart of her students’ progress on the classroom door for all to see, I made her take it down because it was a violation of children’s privacy rights due to FERPA. That should apply in this situation, too, but after Duncan, it seems like everything is up for grabs.
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So True….Have seen the same!
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Art, isn’t the posting of individual student scores a violation of privacy laws?
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Cheers to a rare principal who still has real human emotions of compassion and kindness, and who is mentally healthy enough to recognize the difference between “punitive” and “positive”.
In today’s school culture, it is an impossible task to function as a principal and maintain empathy, whether it is a charter school or a private school, especially those in low income minority populations. The attitude is that “those children” need to be “managed” with “absolute control”. Entrapment and dominance are the two conditions that define psychological abuse. Those conditions are present in schools that use punitive methods, since there is a lack of compassion and empathy.
The punitive authoritarian “discipline” systems that have become pervasive in minority low income charter schools like KIPP, are used in many of the Title I Schools of Texas, especially in Austin and Houston. Their militaristic system has been called by many names: Skinner-Nazi Management Style, Stockholm Syndrome, Hitler Youth Movement, Master Slave Culture, Totalitarian, etc. The schools using this system will defend it because it serves their purpose of management, and it “looks” so functional, and it gets the results they want. However, the students become desensitized, submissive, and compliant to the dominance of stern teachers, who drill them with non stop mind numbing low level rote memory TEKS and STAAR. After a while, the children lose their imagination and function like robots. The system is used because the primary purpose is to brainwash students to pass tests, and to train their behavior to be submissive. There is no recognition of children’s developmental needs or empathy from teachers, who are indoctrinated to function like “masters”. After a few years in this system of master/slave, the children will look more like prisoners of war than real children. It actually causes the Stockholm Syndrome, for both teachers and children.
It is sophisticated “bullying”, although not recognized as bullying by the teachers and school administrators who believe they are doing a great job of managing and teaching.
Children who are captive in this punitive system will experience chronic feelings of victimization (fear, shame, self -pity, anger, need for revenge, jealousy). They will become loyal to the abuser. These chronic feelings of victimization and “never fully measuring up” will continue to be repressed and build up a reservoir that will manifest into mental illness during young adulthood. Most mental illness begins in childhood. Personality disorders are known to begin around age 5. Anxiety, depression, and ADHD have soaring rates among children and teenagers. Bipolar is now estimated to be
1 out of 5 in the general adult population of Texas. The most noticeable behavior signs that parents may detect early begins with “desensitization”. The child will seem more withdrawn and distant. There will be a loss of imagination, spontaneity, and humor. The child will appear sad, lethargic, and with a loss of vitality. The child will become submissive and obedient to all authority, including abusive authority. The child will learn disrespect and cruel behavior modeled from “bullying” teachers and it will become “normal”.
School administrators and teachers who are using these punitive systems and calling it “positive”, are too emotionally desensitized themselves to empathize with children or to recognize the psychological damage that is being done. They participate and perpetuate psychological abuse to children because they are in denial, and telling themselves they are doing what is best. They are self absorbed (Narcissistic) and focused on their own agenda and performance, and sometimes a need for “celebrity”.
Like prison guards, many teachers and administrators who work in these punitive systems will become sadistic, and get pleasure from punishing children. Their school may visibly look good to the parents and public because they achieve good performance ratings, and appear to have good management since the children are obedient; however, internally they function like prisons, or psychological dungeons, with children in psychological bondage. The unfortunate targets of most Narcissistic sadistic school administrators in Texas are minority children and special needs children.
The punitive factory schools and the damaged children they produce will continue because they enhance the economy. They fill the need for someone’s greed. This social/economic phenomena of supply and demand is maintaining the coffers of testing, pharma, prisons, insurance, politicians, lobbyists, and unlimited school contracted services such as CASEL. This has the same effect on the economy as war, but unfortunately in this war, the children are the victims who suffer the most and will never recover.
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Creating a “punitive” school culture and convincing people that it “positive” is like something from a dystopic novel, only this is REAL. It is the chilling prophecy of moral decay in America. It is from top down. Until our dissociated leaders stop playing the violin while Rome burns and listen to the mental health professionals who are screaming to help the children, it will not change.
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My admiration goes out to Principal Roni, and the teachers and children who are fortunate to have her leadership. My principal is the opposite, and uses punitive discipline as the basis for our school structure. Fear and humiliation is motivation.
As a second year teacher in a Title I elementary school of Austin ISD, I can confirm that this punitive culture is alive and well in Texas. The system that is used in most Austin Title I Schools was modeled after the KIPP, and demands that teachers be indoctrinated into a punitive management style that is stern and domineering.
I can’t be relaxed and spontaneous with my students when I am expected to fit the ultra authoritarian style that does not allow for compassion or empathy. The regimented structure requires total focus on ” work work work and no play”. Humor and creative imaginative activities are considered folly. There is no place for flexibility in my script.
With constant surveillance from administration, I dare not use my own ideas or special talent that would sway from the rigid schedule of lesson plans scripted to TEKS and STAAR. I am told by literacy specialists exactly what the children need to learn, and how to present it to them. I am like a middle man for passing on packaged test prep, mostly via worksheets and overhead projection lectures and non stop practice tests. This is not how I was prepared to teach 3rd graders.
This indoctrination process has been depressing for me, and it doesn’t conform to professional ethics or my moral standards. It is shameful to be part of a system that punishes children, but what choice do I have not to participate?
What can teachers like me do when they have invested four years and college loans
to pay off, with no other career options?
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Try to hang in there and unite with like-minded teachers and parents, at home, here and through the Network for Public Education. We have to fight this, but don’t try to do it by yourself. You are not alone.
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IMNT–Cosmic Tinker gives good advice. Also, if you have a mentor
(or had one last year who is an experienced, tenured teacher), talk to her/him about some of you contact retired teachers from your school to help you out by letting parents know what’s going on, handing out Opt Out packets (which one can get on the United Opt Out website), & whatever else they can do to help. Honestly, it can work for you. A group of retired teachers worked (attended meetings, taking copious notes & speaking out, filed a FOIA, spoke to the local press & handed out information sheets throughout the community) to get rid of a harmful Broad trained superintendent in Rockford, IL several years ago–successfully!
Yes, WE can…& we will!
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