This is a terrific article about the elite prep schools and the fact that they do not follow the “reforms” that are now pushed by the U.S. Department of Education, the Gates Foundation, the Broad Foundation, and other corporate reformers.
Here are some quotes from the article:
Go ahead and do an online search of the country’s top prep schools, or check out this list from Forbes. Peruse some of the school websites and do a search for anything that mainstream education reformers suggest we implement in your neighborhood public school. Try, for example, common core state standards. How about data-driven instruction? Or, what about two weeks worth of mandated high-stakes, standardized state tests, preceded by weeks, if not months, of benchmarks, short-cyles, and pre-assessments?
Are they likely to hire teachers without advanced degrees?
Check out the proportion of teachers at those schools who possess advanced degrees. At Horace Mann in the Bronx—where 36 percent of students are accepted at an Ivy League school, Stanford, or MIT—94 percent of the teachers have advanced degrees. Now, who was it that said rewarding teachers with advanced degrees is a waste of money? Ah yes, our Secretary of Education, Arne Duncan. How far do you think Mr. Duncan’s argument would get with parents who examine a potential school’s “Ivy/MIT/Stanford pipeline” percentage score? Not very far.
So why are the prep schools avoiding Duncan’s great ideas?
If the reforms mandated by Departments of Education and fawned over by upstart think-tankers were as fantastic as advised again and again, then you can bet that every single one of the country’s best prep schools would be implementing them as rapidly as possible. They’re not, and you shouldn’t accept them either.
Diane Ravitch's blog 
Wow! I’m blown away by this. The cc will hurt my son’s chances to attend a good college because he’ll have to compete with the kids who don’t have CC. CC is going to be a disadvantage.
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I don’t know if this is exactly true. College admissions counselors seek a diverse student body. They’re not all going to come from Horace Mann. I don’t have any stats to back this up but I would think that the vast majority of Ivy students are much like the valedictorian at your local high school.
What I am more concerned about, as someone who has taught at the university level and as a parent, is that CC kids will have to compete with non CC kids in that good college. As we all know, professors don’t assign worksheets, they assign 20-page papers and lots and lots of primary source reading. The point of those assessments is for the professor to evaluate the student’s depth of knowledge and intellectual creativity. Students who have a broad educational foundation can make the leap from the kind of 3, 5 or even 15 page paper they worked on in high school to the 20 page paper required in college. The others simply run out of enough good ideas to sustain it. The students who come better prepared for true college level work don’t have a time management/existential crisis in the first semester of their freshman year, they get more out of their classes and are able to double major if they want. As far as life skills, it is always better to be a Spanish/Bio major or a Neuropsych/Dance major than not. People change careers many times over their lifetimes and none of us knows ahead of time the knowledge that will be most useful.
IMO, “race to the top” is a terrible analogy for education. Race to the top of what? Even if you can get yourself into a Nobel Laureate’s classroom (i.e.. “the top”) you have to be able to participate once you get there.
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I don’t care how college ready you are – everybody feels the time crunch. There are certain times in the semester that everything is due at once. Time management skills are not enough to get the work done. Although I advise all my former students not to wait until the last minute, sometimes there is no choice. It’s trial by fire (a good exercise for meeting deadlines in the real world).
I loved college, but it was a strain at times. Somehow I was able to get it all done. Yes, I was college ready to a point. But college is an experience like no other, which nobody can really prepare you for. That’s one reason why CCSS is a sham.
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When I went to a so-called elite college, about 40% of the student body went to private school. So most of the kids did go to public school, but the percentage of private school students was still much higher than in the general public. I believe the same is true today, although there are a growing number of students from elite public schools.
I’m not sure how CC will fit into all this since even in my state of NY we still aren’t really sure how what it is all about. I will say that I was academically prepared for college coming from a private school. Socially, it was a bit of a culture shock. Although not poor, I came from a solidly middle class/working class town, and I was not ready for the “rich kid” culture. Because of this, I sometimes hesitate when recommending Ivy League schools to students I know.
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It is so true. We have trouble adapting to a different “culture”. In affluent Amherst, we had some low income housing which induced city families to relocate to the suburbs. The local school did not know how to handle their behaviors. The black students tended to bully the white kids (one daughter was given a black eye – the principal said it was her fault for tapping the boy on the shoulder; another daughter had the leg to her jeans almost ripped off, etc.) They did not fit in to the school climate which then over time changed to accommodate their needs and discipline issues. My point is: you can take the child out of the city, you can’t take the city out of the child.
This does not mean that both cultures can’t adapt to each other, it just takes quite a bit of effort on both sides. However, if you go into a lunchroom at a typical middle or high school – please note that the students usually self segregate (and not just by race).
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Your CC son will not suffer until he is in college competing with the kids from private schools. Once there, it is unlikely he’ll be able to outperform the private school kids without tremendous effort and self-discipline. The private school kids will coast through college and still get into the selective graduate schools.
Private school kids actually have it harder than public school kids: in addition to strict dress codes and behavior codes and the possibility of expulsion (without a refund), private school kids have to figure out how to make good grades when no one is forcing the teacher to change his/her teaching method.
Private school kids barrel into college tougher, smarter and stronger. That’s why they can spend time in college building social contacts at frat parties.
Public school kids get teachers who are harassed, stressed and told that their job depends on getting the low-income kids to pass the state test. So guess what even the strong public school kids spend most of their time doing? Prepping for that test.
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“Public school kids get teachers who are harassed, stressed and told that their job depends on getting the low-income kids to pass the state test. So guess what even the strong public school kids spend most of their time doing? Prepping for that test.”
There’s an enormous amount of variation in public schools, and while the ones in low-income areas are suffering exactly the problems you describe, the ones in high-income areas are generally providing a balanced education that’s as good as or superior to that provided in private schools. And those are the schools sending graduates to good colleges.
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Yes, you’re exactly right about (many) private schools. The kids are pushed much harder than in public school. The school may not give standardized tests, but all those kids are taking PSATs, SATs, APs, and some more than once, and they are being prepped for those tests inside and outside of school. Also, my husband taught at an elite private school, which is now abolishing the teaching of grammar.
I’ve been a TF at Harvard and worked at Harvard, and I tell my community college students, “Harvard accepts 8% of their applicants, but once you’re in, you’re not going to flunk out. If you’re good enough to get into Harvard, you’re good enough to get by once you’re in there. Besides, Harvard doesn’t fail students. On the other hand, we (c.c.) accept 98% of our applicants. And we fail people.”
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Hiring the brightest and the best does make a difference. The suburban high school I attended hired graduates from top notch schools. We received an excellent education, very innovative for the late 60s, early 70 s, which made us college ready. Several of my classmates went on to Ivy League Schools. We were number one in Western New York.
When my daughters attended the same high school, it had declined. Gone were the innovations. Gone were the top notch teachers. Gone was the number one ranking. There were a lot of issues which were not being addressed. My daughters were lucky, because they had some of the good teachers. The ones that had been hired when I was a Sophomore. Near retirement, they were still at the top of their game. Other teachers were sadly lacking. It’s still a decent school, because many of the students come from affluent homes, but it can’t compare to what it once was.
By settling for average teachers, you get average results.
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How do you determine a teacher is average?
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How do you know the teachers are average? From the results, of course.
Sarcasm definitely intended, and it frosts me that I have to make that clear, since so many people are saying the same thing without irony.
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Apparently, the average teachers are the ones who do not come from “top notch schools.” Forget the fact that many of us were actually accepted into “top notch schools” but didn’t have enough money to pay for them, so we settled for schools we could afford. And many have received an excellent college education at schools not on the “top notch” list.
Elitism is alive and well and living right here on this blog.
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One interesting way higher education financing has changed is that it is now cheaper for a student from a low income household to attend an elite school than it is to attend a state school like the one I teach in. It is the upper middle income household that finds attending a state school much less expensive than places like NYU.
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So which one of your daughters teachers is top notch, or average? Which one is the prettiest, most handsome, or the best dressed? All of these classifications are subject the person that bestows the honors. The quality of a teacher depends completely how much the student is willing to learn from that teacher and sometimes the student has no idea how great their teachers were until years after school.
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Come on, now. I can spot an excellent teacher. I had both good and bad teachers at school. Granted, sometimes the relationship between an individual student and teacher can determine an outcome, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that some teachers have got it and others haven’t .
For example – both daughters had this horrible geometry teacher. She played favorites and her teaching sucked. My daughters would come home with their homework or tests and have their father help them ( he was teaching geometry at the time). He would often note that the teacher was wrong in her procedures. They would get points off on their tests, even though they got the correct answer, because they weren’t doing the problem “her” way. She allowed corrections on the test, and even with help, she never accepted my daughters’ answers. It was only later I found that parents routinely asked that she not be their child’s teacher. (She passed away recently with this wonderful write up in the newspaper about how she was a wonderful math teacher and I could only think “good, she’s dead!” Those of you who know me will be shocked by this reaction.
Here’s one reason I thought she was a horrible teacher-person. My daughters had an opportunity to go on a band trip to Orlando, Florida. It was a week long and they traveled by bus. What a wonderful experience. They gathered all their assignments and on the way home did their math problems. There were a lot of them and they tended to be the challenge problems at the end of each section. My old math teacher was a chaperone and he helped my kids, surprised at her choice of assignments. When they got back, they both turned in the completed assignment and, in front of them, she ripped them up and threw their completed work in the waste basket.
My oldest was having some issues with a fellow student (another story) and had her schedule changed (that was another ordeal) and ended up with my old math teacher (who was excellent). All of a sudden she went from a D student to an A student and did very well on the Regents Exam. My other daughter, who majored in math in college, struggled along with tthe original teacher, getting all Cs. She also did very well on the Regents, due to her ability and outside help, in spite of her teacher.
This was the era when Geometry was called Math 2. After that it became Math B, then it went back to Geometry. (What’s come around, goes around.)
I have tons of stories about incompetent teachers, but this is the most flagrant example.
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Ellen:
Be careful, you are treading on some hallowed ground. 😉
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Bernie – you know I call them as I see them and this is an issue I am passionate about. Most of the teachers I’ve worked with have been good teachers. A few should choose another career. I have varied opinions about my kids teachers and often how they did depended on their chemistry with the particular teacher. But there were a few who were just plain rotten. And I don’t label them that way because of my child’s grade, but because of a series of events, including my own interactions with that teacher. My philosophy was almost always hands off, but on occasion I needed to intervene. I’m not from Texas, but don’t mess with my children.
And everything I write on this blog really happened. I don’t need to invent stories – I’ve seen it all.
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And Teresa (Theresa is my middle name)!- I can spot an English teacher who is lacking in basic knowledge – it takes a five minute conversation. Just because you know your content area doesn’t necessarily make you a good teacher, but being illiterate about literature definitely leads to incompetence. We had a fantastic, one of a kind, English teacher at the Gifted Program. She was very strict and parents would complain. Her grading system was unforgiving – students learned to turn their assignments in on time. But she would give up her lunch hour to help those deficient in grammar. She taught them all how to write. By the end of the year both parents and students were singing her praises. She did some incredible activities with the kids – including poetry and art exhibits at major studios, and with the advanced kids, one year, she did a unit on Annie (a poem written by an author friend). The author visited the class and the kids went to Niagara Falls, in period costume (borrowed from the historical society), to ride in a hot air balloon overlooking the falls. (Annie was the woman who went over Niagara Falls in a barrel and survived – an amazing story). This teacher was a bit eccentric, but a phenomenal educator. It took years to find a decent replacement after she retired. Her name is well known throughout Western New York.
My point – yes, you can tell the difference between the best and the worst teachers.
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It is my understanding that the orthodox position here is that 1) teachers have only a limited impact on student learning compared to the family life and background of students, 2) that the selection process for limited enrollment schools so biases the student body that any differences between selective schools and neighborhood schools can be attributed to the selection process and nothing about the schools, and finally 3) that standardized tests like those that elite colleges and universities use for admission do not reliably measure academic achievement.
Given these views, it would seem very difficult to make any claim that graduate degrees (do we know if these graduate degrees are doctorates in the subject areas or on line MA in education?) cause better education.
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Still haven’t answered my question, Ann Ryand sniffer, if you are paid to troll here.
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No I am not.
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You must mean “Ayn Rand.” I haven’t read her books. What’s so bad about her anyway, nano? I never heard that the Ayn Rand institute hired trolls just to disrupt blogs like this by discrediting their assumptions. How does Ayn Rand’s philosophy dispute the philosophy of education assumed here?
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Say what? This is about the 1st class education that wealthy people, who promote corporate education “reforms,” want for their own children in private schools, compared to the 3rd class standardized McPublicEducation they want for the masses. If they really believed in all of their public school prescriptions, then politicians and other corporate “reformers” would be massively advocating for the implementation of such policies and practices in the private schools their own kids attend, too, including the hiring of five week trained recruits from Teach for America.
That’s never going to happen because it is what they’ve earmarked just for commoners, whom they’d like tucked away in steerage and not competing in the future against their elite kids for limited numbers of high paying jobs. Johnson is right, this system is “perpetuating both class-based and racial apartheid”
Considering your ongoing use of pretzel logic to supposedly boost support for your positions promoting corporate education “reforms” in discussions here, frankly, I would be inclined to question the impact on you of the schools that awarded your degrees.
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It is at least in part about paying teachers more for advanced degrees, at least according to the original post. Did you miss that part? Let me quote it:
At Horace Mann in the Bronx—where 36 percent of students are accepted at an Ivy League school, Stanford, or MIT—94 percent of the teachers have advanced degrees. Now, who was it that said rewarding teachers with advanced degrees is a waste of money?
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Corporate “reformers” want minimally trained Teach for America recruits imposed on public education students because they are elites looking for temp jobs and cheap.
Your logic is severely lacking and fails to provide even a modicum of support for the egregious corporate “reform” agenda.
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So you think that the admission rate of Horace Mann students to top universities IS good evidence that advanced degrees for teachers causes superior academic performance of students?
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The day Spence hires a TFA-trained teacher, recently graduated from the University of Texas, to be their fifth grade teacher is the day I’ll eat my..well..10 gallon hat.
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That’s just a red herring. The point is that private schools believe in the importance of advanced degrees for teachers and they flaunt them.
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Again the original post links success at elite college admission on the part of students to the teachers at the school having some sort of graduate degree. Should I not take the plain words of the post seriously?
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NONE of the top private schools in Dallas (a city with a lot of very rich, discerning families) hire TFA. None. You’d better have a degree in your content area and preferably a graduate degree.
Biology teachers teach the children of doctors, for example, so those bio teachers have to know their content area inside and out on the first day of class. 5 weeks of training? Please.
Wealthy parents aren’t sending their kids for test prep or babysitting; they expect a college-level approach at the 5th grade level. They aren’t paying $25K a year for nothing; they expect math/science/foreign language/history/writing experts to be leading the class.
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I certainly agree that content knowledge is important.
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TE: you’re tripping up on a minor detail. Yes, many MA programs are lame. But many are not. Often an MA is a good proxy for smarts and advanced knowledge. The point is that prep schools value smart and knowledgeable teachers –and they use a decent, if imperfect, proxy for sniffing them out. Don’t you think a Yale English MA stands a better chance of being an inspiring and effective English teacher than a pedagogy MA from State U.? Which would you want to teach your kids?
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I certainly agree that high quality graduate degrees can contribute greatly to high quality teaching, and think that schools might do well to recruit teachers with high quality degrees. The fact that an MA in English from Harvard does an excellent job teaching is not an argument that school districts should encourage teachers to enroll in poor quality graduate education.
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TE, you are right that there is no proof for a causal connection between teachers having advanced degrees and higher rates of admission to the Ivies.
Personally, I would say the higher rate is due to reputational effects and legacy admissions. But Horace Mann cannot maintain its reputation without hiring subject matter experts who are able to elicit the kind of student performance that Ivies are looking for. A teacher with an advanced degree in physics, English or mathematics has actually been in the classrooms that they are sending their students to. They can prepare them in countless ways. So, while high school students across the nation will read Native Son the Horace Mann teacher who has done graduate level course work likely brings a different perspective to the material than someone who hasn’t. Otherwise, you would be arguing that there is no added value to a teacher immersing themselves in their subject matter for a longer period of time and as well as having had the benefit of additional instructional time from graduate level professors.
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I agree that content knowledge is very important. I was dismayed to learn that at my institution, at least, the education schools requirements for the graduate licensure in physics did not include any upper level (junior/senior) undergraduate classes that count towards a physics major. I suppose it goes without saying that no graduate physics classes were required.
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It’s funny how certification works. My husband is more qualified to teach physics then who they hired. (Physics is one of those subject areas which schools find difficult to fill). He took several physics classes in college, and has a degree is electrical and computer engineering which is full of physics. NYS would not accept that for credit and insisted he take an additional twelve hours of coursework. So now he is teaching Earth Science (for which he only has Buffalo certification – a whole other story ) instead.
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Isn’t the point that teachers deserve to be credited for advanced learning like other professionals?
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Other professionals do not typically get automatic increase in salary because they get an advanced degree.
The current structure encourages a plethora of poor MA programs (especially on line) that just conform to the minimum accreditation standards and are able to demand a cut of any teacher salary increase.
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I’m sure the Master Degrees of the teachers at Prep Schools are from upper echelon schools, not from online sources.
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They may well be from top places. But my original point still holds that success if students at Horace Mann in admission to top universities is not evidence that public schools should pay a premium to any teacher that has any relevant graduate degree from any accredited program.
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Teachers often get credit for taking additional courses plus an little extra for a masters degree or doctorate. It only adds up to a few thousand more than the regular salary. This is part of our contract. In NYS, teachers are required to have a Master’s degree for Certification.
A good teacher will continue to seek out educational opportunities of all kinds.
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You would think so, Dee Dee, and there is evidence to support that (see below). However, corporate “reform” advocates like teachingeconomist (and Duncan et al.) prefer research bought from think tanks (aka “belief-tanks”) to support their policies over data compiled from the U.S. Department of Education, Institute of Education Sciences, National Center for Education Statistics, National Assessment of Educational Progress, various years, 2005-2011 reading assessments, “The Masters’ Degree Effect”:
http://www.edweek.org/tsb/articles/2012/02/29/02effect.h05.html
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Are teachers with advanced degrees more likely to be more experienced? Are teachers with advanced degrees more likely to be found in relatively wealthy districts?
The world is a complicated place. Looking at correlations between two variables is not usually a good guide. It might lead you to add bathrooms to your house in order to improve your child’s SAT score.
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In NYS a teacher has to get a Masters Degree to become certified. Then they have to do 150 hours of in service a year to keep their certification. They also have to take a National Teachers Exam, plus take a couple of required classes. In Buffalo, they have to have a background check and be fingerprinted (at their own expense). Buffalo releases teachers from service if they don’t have the proper credentials within the given time frame. (That’s why I don’t understand why they are hiring TFA next year).
After all that, the teacher finally gets a job, and then is treated like shit. (At least that’s the way ed reform seems to be moving.) Welcome to teaching.
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The requirements in New York are a good example of the difficulty in finding causal relationships between graduate education and learning. If all experienced teachers have graduate degrees, there is no way to tell what impact graduate degrees have on student college admissions or anything else.
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I see your point.
I think the article used advanced degrees (perhaps many had multiple degrees like my husband or doctorates) to indicate they select the brightest and the best. If you work in a public school, you can tell the difference between a top notch teacher, an average teacher, and a crappy teacher. I’m sure those prep school headmasters could tell who would fit into their model based on several criteria – with an advanced degree as a starting point.
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Dee Dee, Ignore con-artists, like TE, who has a history of trying to entangle people in ridiculous discussions that lead nowhere. They just don’t want to pay for the advanced education of public school teachers and will resort to throwing half-baked arguments about toilets at you to decry actual research and defend their willingness to settle for less educated teachers for the masses.
Elite private schools pay more for teachers with advanced degrees. In fact, a lot of employers pay more to people with advanced degrees, including colleges. No doubt, TE is paid more than someone with less education at his college as well, though I would certainly question the wisdom of that…
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Anonymous,
In general non tenure stream faculty like me are not paid as well as tenure stream faculty. Pay, however, varies greatly with field. I am paid worse than a first year assistant professor in my department but better than a first year assistant professor in the English department. All of us in the college are paid worse than a first year professor in the medical school. Pay generally depends on the alternative employment possibilities.
The toilet SAT correlation is, of course, well established. High income is the link between the two. The world is more complicated than the graphs in your link suggest.
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I’ve told the story of Dr Hauptmann who was working as an adjunct at UB and paid very little, until he won the Nobel Prize and then got his own Institute funded by UB.
The pay system at the College level cannot be compared to the public school pay scales. It has its own crazy system. Not one we’d like to adopt.
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More red herrings. The issue is regarding payment for advanced degrees, not tenure track, discipline or anything else you want to throw out as a diversion.
And I’ve seen before how you defend narratives that support your position against increased pay for public school teachers with master’s degrees which had no supporting research whatsoever, while blasting actual research with whatever you can pull out of your hat. That’s your pattern and, by golly, you’re sticking to it. And I’m tired of reading it. All done here.
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TE,
Instead of generalizing, could you specify what “[o]ther professionals do not typically get automatic increase in salary because they get an advanced degree”?
I know that businesses usually give pay raises for MBAs over bachelors (some businesses actually pay their employees to further their education). I know that doctors get pay increases for furthering their education, keeping up with practice, and for specialization. I know that a nurse with a masters gets more than one with a bachelors. I also know that police and fire fighters get pay increases for furthering their education and specialization. Engineers even get pay increases for furthering their education and other certification. So what professionals besides lawyers are you talking about?
While I agree that some graduate degrees are meaningless, it doesn’t mean that we throw out the concept of increasing salary for furthering one’s education, certification, or specialization. We want our teachers to further their education. We want them to specialize in the content area. We want at least a few teachers at our children’s school to be certified in First Aid and CPR. We want them to become better at their craft. To achieve these ends, we should pay teachers more.
There are some degrees and schools that should be avoided. I fully agree with that argument. But all we have to do to achieve the best of both worlds is narrow the scope for what they can receive pay increases for, just like other professions do.
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The Morrigan:
I agree with TE. I spent 35 years working with all types of large organizations on HR issues and I am aware of no Fortune 500 company or major professional services company that explicitly provides increases to individuals doing the same job simply because they received a Master’s Degree or PhD for that matter. There are jobs in such business organizations that may recognize and require specific professional certifications and that achieving such certifications may lead to an expansion of responsibilities and a concomitant increase in pay, e.g. PE and CPA credentials. Many professions require CE credits to maintain professional licenses – but again there is no automatic salary increase.
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I guess it depends on your field. One daughter only has a BA in business, but is climbing the corporate ladder based on her talents. Her husband didn’t even go to college, but he makes way more than an average teacher as a self taught computer programmer. Whereas my daughter will see six figures in the near future, my son-in-law has the potential to make millions if he can come up with a successful on line company.
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Ellen:
I think one of the questions at issue is whether teachers should be paid more because they have a Masters Degree. This practice of paying for additional education in my experience is unique to the public sector and/or unionized environments. Another question is whether such a degree is associated with greater teacher effectiveness.
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Well, my undergraduate degrees were in English and El Ed. My masters was in Library Science. So in my case, I could not have been a librarian without a masters degree. Therefore, I deserved the extra money, since my job was technically more difficult. (Not that teaching is easy). And extra training did make me a better school librarian. If we increase our skills above and beyond the norm shouldn’t we be compensated (and that’s an extra $800 a year after 150 hours of additional training)? Each college credit would be equal to 15 hours.
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That’s because, in the business model, there is typically no “automatic salary increase” for ANYTHING. Unless the organization is unionized and salary schedules have been agreed upon through collective bargaining, nothing is usually automatic. And the point of all of this haranguing against teachers and salary increases for their advanced degrees is to break unions and eliminate collective bargaining –and whatever else has been won for workers through unionization.
Good luck with that, teachers! Those of us who’ve worked for miserly employers at non-elite private schools for any length of time, where we’ve had to negotiate our own pay raises, know that many non-union teachers are lucky if they EVER receive a cost of living increase. Forget about getting one annually to keep you in line with inflation. And don’t count on salary increases for anything else either. especially now that there is a perception that teachers are a dime a dozen.
Often, you will find that you have to move up and out of your position as a teacher to make significantly more money than your starting salary. And don’t be surprised if that starting salary is minimum wage or just slightly above it –even with your decades of experience and multiple degrees. And wave goodbye to your employers when you see them off taking trips around the world each year, paid for from the money they saved by paying you an unlivable wage. (I experienced 15 years of that at one school.) These practices are pervasive in many non-union industries and help to explain why wages have been stagnant for working people for years. http://www.winningwordsproject.com/reframing_the_40_year_long_stagnant_worker_compensation_problem_in_america
Yep, that is the wonderful business model that corporate “reformers” and their minions here are promoting and have in mind for you.
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My daughters in the business world have gotten a 3% raise each year. The teachers in the Buffalo Public Schools haven’t had a pay increase (although there are step salaries) for over ten years, plus wages (step increases) were frozen for three of those years.
It sucks being in a job where your talents are under appreciated and the renumeration isn’t worth the aggravation. You are not alone.
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At my institution most good size salary increases come because some other institution wishes to hire the faculty member away. There have been occasional pots of money that have been made available over the last decade, and those have been allocate across members of a department based on recommendations by members of department. It seems to me that this kind of peer evaluation could be useful in K-12 education.
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Bernie,
Check out what Walmart and GE do for those in managerial positions at their companies (doing the same job). A simple search will supply you with the details. Both are on the 2013 500 list. While these two examples do not necessarily disprove your point or support my own, it should give you pause to your sweeping generalizations.
I do not necessarily disagree with all of TE’s points. I actually do think there should be some reform in this area. I just do not think the argument should be all or none, and so sweeping. Higher and advanced education in content areas should matter and teachers should model it. States that have slashed pay bumps for advanced degrees are basically saying that higher education is not valued in education. That is exactly the wrong message to send to students or parents. But perhaps, that is what you and TE want?
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Morrigan:
I searched but could come up with nothing on point wrt Walmart. Can you suggest a link?
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I am not interested in sending any message to students and parents. My spouse and I both have earned doctorates in our fields (social science for me, humanities for my spouse) and I expect my middle son will also end up with a doctorate as well. My family and I certainly value education.
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The future does look bleak for teachers. I have worked primarily in the private sector, which is the model for neo-liberals. After being a low-paid teacher at a private school for 12 years, I “moved up and out of the classroom” because I couldn’t take being poor anymore. It was a non-elite for-profit school and, as Principal and Executive Director leading two schools in different locations, that got me a whole 50¢ per hour increase. I was so frustrated that I planned to leave and told a state inspector, who intervened and managed to get me an additional $1 per hour increase. I really appreciated the assistance, but when you are in poverty, work 60 hour weeks (and are on-call 24/7) and you have no other income, an additional $1.50 per hour does not go very far.
I did look for more equitable pay elsewhere and, ultimately, I left and went to work at a private school in the non-profit sector that was funded primarily through charities like United Way, where I DOUBLED my salary. Yes, private non-profit schools that are funded by real charities often do pay considerably more. They were not unionized schools, but they were humanized organizations, which did their best to pay equitable salaries to all employees, regardless of skill level and experience.
I would advise teachers who are struggling to find jobs that pay equitably to steer clear of for-profits, as well as the pseudo-non-profits that are funded by foundations with political agendas. Look for work at non-profit schools that are funded by non-political, non-denominational, autonomous charitable organizations. I’ve also worked at faith-based schools, one of my own religion and one which was nothing like my religion, but that was not a conflict for me –some of those schools have non-sectarian curriculum, plus not all faiths teach creationism.
That said, don’t expect to earn what you were paid in unionized jobs at public schools. For my decades of experience and several college degrees, even as a head school administrator, I was NEVER paid a salary that was comparable to what first year teachers (with no experience and just one degree) earn in my school district for 10 months work –and all of my jobs required that I work 12 months per year.
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I had a doctorate (just awarded) when I started teaching high school at a private school. I felt I was just barely prepared to function at that highly selective school. Even an MA in the subject may not be enough. Certainly an education MA is not enough, in my opinion.
I’ve often advanced the rather extravagant position that no one should even be considered for a high school teaching position without a good PhD under his belt.
If that criterion were applied, it probably would lower the rigor of doctoral degrees.
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Academic arrogance abounds!
It always amazes me how some people think that degrees mean everything.
While it is very important for educators to be well-formed and well-educated, there is no guarantee that any advanced degree from any school, including an Ivy League school, or any doctorate is going to make someone a good teacher.
I have known some teachers with bachelor’s degrees who are much better than some teachers with doctorates.
I think what often is missed is this:
Teaching is a gift. It involves passion. It is a gift that can be nurtured with formal skills training and advanced degrees. But one must possess the gift, the passion for teaching to be a good teacher.
Bottom line: There are some teachers (perhaps many) who do not have the gift of and passion for teaching. So all the degrees in the world will not make them better teachers.
Key to the whole discussion of qualified teachers must be regular evaluation by students, parents, qualified evaluators, and the teachers themselves. The tenure system needs to be abolished. Automatic pay raises based upon additional courses taken need to disappear.
Unfortunately, we need too many teachers – so we are willing to allow ungifted people with no passion for teaching (incompetents even with their advanced degrees) to fill the spots.
And to those who think that online education is valueless – you are proving your own ignorance. There are many valuable online programs out there. Some people I know have both online and ivy league advanced degrees and state that better learning happened in their online programs!
Ivy league or community college or online education – any kind of education can and does have excellent, good, mediocre, and poor teachers. And that is because not all teachers have the gift and passion for teaching. That is the fundamental issue.
So the question becomes: How do we find more people who have the gift and passion for teaching? That’s what we really need.
(N.B. I am not against advanced degrees – I have a few. I have taught at the high school level and now teach at the college level. I know people who started teaching with bachelor’s and assorted advanced degrees who are excellent teachers. I know some who are good or mediocre I know some who are horrific. It’s just silly to assume that a degree or set of degrees makes a quality teacher.
I have always been and continue to be adverse to academic arrogance.
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I agree with this, hence my concern with an automatic pay increase for any plausible graduate degree.
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My brother teaches an online course to undergraduates. He says it is very time consuming, but he gets paid a good sum for his efforts. If done properly, I’m sure online classes could be a good alternative to those who cannot physically attend school.
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I think the effectiveness of on line classes depends apron the topic. Some work well, others not so well.
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Agreed. Anything with a hands on component would not work well. When my son went to community college for a semester he had a couple of blended classes that met for an hour once or twice a week, but all the work was done online. That was a nice mix.
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HaHa – you should read what William James had to say on the subject of the fetish of the PhD. Never fear, in this age of the PhD assembly line, the criterion that you are apprehensive of has already arrived!
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Agreed, I did my Doctoral work and realize how inadequate a Masters is. I see teachers with an MS not able to function without handouts and a copying machine. Even the union complains that teachers do not have the “materials” to teach. They insult their own members. Read “The Underground History of Education” by John Taylor Gatto. The Public schools were created by Carnegie to keep the kids down and not challenging the existing economy. What I learned on the Doctoral level should be the Masters.
Basically the MS is for “crowd control” in the schools. There is no news here.
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My husband’s first teaching assignment was at Calasanctious, a private school for extremely gifted children. He had to teach Geometry, Calculus, Chemistry, and AP Chemistry. There were no textbooks. The children felt they were smarter than any teacher. They weren’t smarter than him. He too was gifted in MST (having numerous degrees which he collected like some people collect stamps). But for a first teaching assignment, with four preps and a class of obnoxious brats, it was as much hell as any inner city school (just a different sort of hell). He lasted six months. And the pay was not that great.
Harlan, many of us have gone through the ringer in the name of education. We each have our horror stories. I’m truly sorry for your bad experience. Our goal here is to prevent that sort of thing from happening again.
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That’s less “the orthodox position” and more “what the facts say,” though you’ve misstated a few things.
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What have I misstated?
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“What have I misstated?”
You’re conflating learning and test scores (while pretending not to by pointing out that they’re not the same thing in another point).
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Perhaps I stated it badly. What I meant to say was that the orthodox line in this blog is that learning is not very well measured by test scores, so that the admission to highly selective colleges and universities that base their decisions in part on standardized tests scores (many if the top schools require SAT subject tests as well as the standard SAT exam, for example) should be considered illegitimate by the orthodox posters on this blog.
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Again Diane spreads “news we can use”! Thanks Diane. Great way to start 2014. (Of course you have blogged at least 100 times since Jan. 1!
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The children of the rich do not need standards- they are prepared to assume the mantle of leadership and ownership from the day they are born. That is the real “entitlement” that people should be angry about. The door of elite colleges will be open to them no matter what, and when they are done, they will go right into management, or dabble in TFA on the way to that corner office.
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AMEN to your comment Teka21. So TRUE. This is an abomination.
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So……
Common core
VAM
TFA
corporate made, high stakes tests
Mandatory pre tests, benchmarks, and post tests. (All pre made)
Data driven instruction
Word walls
Evaluation via check list
Chanting, slanting and walking single file or else…
Constant test prep
Are for OTHER PEOPLE’S CHILDREN .
Well, imagine that.
Who knew?
😉
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We hated those word walls. Everyone had to have one – even the gym teacher. They kept falling off the concrete walls.
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Dare I ask what a word wall is?
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It’s a list of words relevant to the subject which are written out and posted on the wall so students can see them. Originally it was for elementary teachers, specifically for writing assignments so the kids could glance up and see how to spell the word. Usually it was vocabulary from the reading lesson, but it could also be from other subject areas. The main vocabulary words for the class.
Now, ALL teachers are supposed to have a word wall. I laughed when I saw the word wall in the pool area. The words kept falling down from the humidity of the water. Stupidity.
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Hi Emmy,
As Ellen said, we all hated them.
Word walls were/are just one of the many ridiculous things that are “non negotiable ” for teachers to have up and current in the room.
The “chick with a check list” (principal or asst. prin.) comes by to see it regularly. It is supposed to be evidence of good teaching.
Just another hoop and distraction.
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And people think that public education is not standardized already.
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The pool word wall needs a velcro system, not an adhesive system.
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A bulletin board would have been nice. Or at least a strip to tack things to,
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I used Stikki Clips for many years to hang papers on the cinderblock walls of my classroom. They are very effective, don’t fall off and can be reused: http://www.dickblick.com/products/stikki-clips/
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TAGO, HU, TAGO!
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Never did a word wall, objectives postings, student work area etc. . . .
And never will!
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Reblogged this on @ THE CHALK FACE and commented:
My article from several months back is getting some new life. Interesting. Thanks @dianeravitch
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I liked the article Shaun.
We need to share our experiences – expertise – knowledge to get the word out. This new-to-me information just confirms what I already suspected. The playing fields have never been equal, and the reform movement is lengthening the disparity.
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I clicked on the Forbes link, but I’m not seeing a list of the top prep schools. What am I doing wrong? Do you have to be a subscriber to Forbes?
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Just thought of something else, after I commented above. Can anyone tell me where to find a list of the Top Ten Private High Schools and the Top Ten Public High Schools that use some sort of measuring stick other than the number of AP tests taken?
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US News & World Reports does an annual ranking, but they do use AP scores.
Business First also does a ranking based on numerous data points which include AP, but just as one consideration. This is for all schools – elementary, middle, and high school. Business First also looks at the results of the assessments and lists the schools in order of results. (I.e. Number of 4s and 3s – 2s and 1s) That’s in NYS. I’m not sure what they do in other states. In Erie County -Williamsville (where I live) comes out on top, while the Buffalo Public Schools (where I worked) come out on the bottom.
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I’m so glad to see somebody else making this argument. The same politicians who champion corporatized reform send their students to our school, where we are treated like professionals and expected to perform our duties accordingly.
However, as a longtime teacher at an “elite” school in the Los Angeles area (we’re on the Forbes’ List), I do think we use a few of the ideas in reforms you mentioned (like CCSS). When comparing our mathematics’ department standards/goals with CCSS, the reality is that there’s about 90% overlap, especially in the mathematical practices/ habits of mind. But we don’t need the CCSS to dictate our curriculum or teaching. It’s nice to know that our goals are already in line with most standards, but that’s all it is: guidance. If future testing (AP exams, SAT II perhaps) starts to shift significantly away from what we do, then we as a department will decide whether adjustments/ changes are needed. However, what WE see as important for the future is beyond CCSS: We want students to do more coding, manage the challenge of authentic problems in mathematics (not just exercises), and apply god algebraic fluency to areas like statistics and economics.
Furthermore, we use student performance data on every test / assessment (designed WITHIN our department, guided by other assessments) to gauge how things went in the teaching/learning process. All teachers of a class meet together weekly to discuss common goals, agree on common assessments, and move forward.
However, those are the only parts of “reform (I hate that word)” that seem to overlap with our own professional growth/ development as a school. What do WE do?
1. Develop processes within departments / schools to review existing practices, and re-visit current ways of doing what we do
2. Develop wise incremental changes to address specific needs of out students
3. Hire / retain talented professionals from all areas
4. Provide ample funding for professional development, including graduate work
5. Meet/work with colleagues regularly to monitor, evaluate and improve our own teaching
THIS is helping our school grow. WE need curriculum-proof teachers, not “teacher-proof” curricula.
CCSS could have been a good thing, but the misguided implementation mandates are destroying the entire point and purpose of having standards.
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When Business First added private schools to the ranking system, Williamsville fell to number 2. And the top ten was dominated by other private schools.
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Reblogged this on Transparent Christina.
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I have an article you may find interesting to post on your blog: http://www.cnbc.com/id/101059801 Bill Gates’ riskiest project: Fixing education How tough is it to reform education in the United States? Tougher than ridding the world of polio, according to Bill Gates. … Gates pointed to the foundation’s investments in reforming American education. When it comes to combating diseases, it’s only a matter of time and ingenuity, he said. But with education reform, it might all go to waste. … It is startling, however, to hear Gates state so bluntly the power of teachers. He is concerned that they may be able to thwart his plans. And Gates isn’t someone who is used to being thwarted.
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For the good of students, we can certainly hope that teachers manage to thwart Gates’s plans.
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After Reading First turned out to be a failure and lost funding, a pundit at CATO wrote that the effort had been thwarted by teachers. I coached teachers for that program and was in classrooms on a daily basis, to ensure fidelity, and I saw nothing of the kind in my experiences. Why on earth would teachers purposely prevent students from improving their reading skills? What nonsense.
I believe that teachers have become easy scapegoats for virtually every possible ill because they are mostly women and can’t readily respond to such inane accusations. That was before we knew the true aims of politicians who’ve been bought by big business. At this point, teachers have good reason to be thwarting corporate “reforms.”
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Interesting observation. In NYS – Perhaps that’s why CCSS has been introduced in K-8, where their are mainly females, while now they are moving towards high school where there are more male teachers. We’ll see if there is a bigger pushback, or just massive retirements. (If Cuomo would offer a teacher incentive to retire early – there would be a mass exodus. Then they really would need TFA.)
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Hopefully there’s massive pushback, since massive retirement just means the teachers who could resist destructive “reforms” are replaced by young teachers (or worse, TFA’ers) who won’t understand how destructive the “reforms” are, and won’t have the tenure and seniority protections they’d need to effectively push back.
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Interesting comments but is not the point of the blog that private schools do not follow the core curriculum etc? Maybe they know something that Arne et al do not know.
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“Maybe they know something that Arne et al do not know.”
If I may correct your statement:
. . . “They DEFINITELY know something that Arne et al do not know.”
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Arne, Obama et al. certainly do know. They went to elite private schools themselves. They just want something very different for commoners, standardized McPublicEducation.
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I think there’s more to the Ivy League acceptance rates than just the methods of the prep schools. We should absolutely encourage teachers to get advance degrees, I’m behind this 100%. However, the type of people who can send their kids to elite prep schools, are also probably the kind of people who went to Ivy League schools, so their kids might have that legacy advantage. Also, people with more money can afford additional tutors, prep classes, etc. I don’t think we can dismiss educational reforms completely out of hand based on the fact that expensive private schools don’t follow them.
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That’s hardly the only reason to dismiss the destructive policy currently masquerading as “reform.”
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Flashbacks time! I received “The Brothers” for a holiday gift from my son Dan. It was a great read, reminding us of all the horrors of the 1950s and 1960s and the plutocratic hypocrites — all prep schoolers — who brought them to us. After all, when you’ve won your “Race To The Top” by being born into the one percent, you don’t need any coaching at Groton, etc.
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Is that the book about the Dulles brothers?
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I’m seriously wondering if Whitney Tilson and his like were merely upset that their fellow college students out of public schools were just as bright. Therefore, they to damage those public schools in order to give their own kids a leg up.
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Cream rises. You can find extremely bright kids, even in the bowels of the city. They would learn on a desert island. Prep schools are a wonderful opportunity for the elite, but they can’t match the raw talent of some individuals who have come up through the public school tanks. I should have said many individuals.
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Ang: who knew? Indeed!
I owe you one the next time we meet up with Duane Swacker and Linda and Socrates down at Pink Slip Bar & Grille.
And think of all the useless things that go on at the schools that the leading charterites/privatizers send THEIR OWN CHILDREN to.
For example, just consider the terrible waste of time at summer camp at Cranbrook [Bloomfield Hills, MI]:
[start quote] The Summer Theatre School, our oldest summer program, presents classic theater skills like character acting, lighting, dance, voice, costuming, set design and other stage crafts. The Theatre School operates from Cranbrook’s beautiful Greek Theater grove, an outstanding full sized stone replica of a classic outdoor Greek theater setting nestled in a mature pine forest. Evening outdoor theater productions attract ample crowds from neighboring communities. [end quote]
Link: http://schools.cranbrook.edu/podium/default.aspx?t=146451&rc=0
Of course, that Greek Theater grove is just a mess, right? Some pathetic looking chopped-out space in the middle of weeds and poison ivy, yeah? Who would ever, in their right minds, want to attend or participate in such a soul-deadening environment?
[start quote] Cranbrook Students Enjoy Live Performance in the Greek Theatre
9/19/2013
On Friday, September 13th, Cranbrook Kingswood freshmen and sophomore classes had the rare opportunity to watch a live performance of Antigone, courtesy of Oakland University’s Theatre Program Director Kerro Knox, Professor of Theatre Karen Sheridan and a group of ten students who, as part of OU’s Classical Theatre Study in Greece Program, spent the summer in Greece studying, researching and performing in the towns and venues in which the Greek works were conceived and performed 2500 years ago. While rain forced the morning’s performance into the Performing Arts Center, the sophomores were fortunate to see the play in Cranbrook’s outdoor Greek Theatre. The performances were hosted by the Upper School Performing Arts (Theatre), English and History Departments and were tied directly to the school’s liberal arts curriculum. The sophomores read Oedipus the King and Antigone as their summer reading assignment; the Upper School Acting courses are currently studying Antigone in their classes; and the freshman will consider Antigone when they study ancient Greece. [end quote]
Link: http://schools.cranbrook.edu/podium/default.aspx?t=204&tn=Cranbrook+Students+Enjoy+Live+Performance+in+the+Greek+Theatre&nid=676694&ptid=109201&sdb=True&pf=pgrw&mode=0&vcm=False
Ang, don’t you just pity the poor teachers and students who have to suffer through such indignities?
Or not. Your pick.
😎
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Yes, my little old heart just bleeds for those poor children!
Deprived of the common core, testing, data mining and all the other civil rights issues of our time.
The horror!
😉
PS:
I heart KTA!
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I personally think that the ruling elite should let common people have hope for a better life. Henry the 8th made a similar mistake with his serfs. Let them have their Catholicism, Henry! Everyone needs “hope”, no matter how unlikely, whether to go to heaven and fly around with wings, or get a good job. Common people have to believe that there is a chance, no matter how slim, that their children will be successful. Even if this is mostly a mirage for the 99%, this hope should be kept alive and nourished. The ruling class should also continue to publicize success stories when they do happen. When a poor person makes it into the upper class (usually by bouncing a ball, etc.), it should be widely reported and celebrated. Yes, your student isn’t a Michael Jordan or Einstein, but you get the idea. There has to be that “chance.” Even if these success stories don’t happen often, media coverage can help keep the American Dream alive and seem more common than it is in reality. Human beings need hope. The rulers need to be a little more sophisticated and not so obvious in their intentions.
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I don’t think the elites have any intention of being upfront with the public about their plans for them. I believe they are giving false hopes to commoners, under the guise of preparing McStudents to be “College and Career Ready,” without telling them that their McPublicEducation aims to equip most for having a “career” asking, “Do you want fries with that?” for minimum wage.
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AE:
Who are these elites? Aren’t the Democrats as much the elite as the Republicans? Aren’t Soros and Gates democratic billionaires?
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The elites are the 1%, free market neo-liberal billionaires, their political lackeys etc. Both parties are so dominated by them that it feels to many working people as if there is just a single party today. Perhaps that’s one reason why only 26% of Americans feel represented by the two parties and 80% say it’s time for a 3rd party, according to a recent Gallup poll. These matters have been discussed extensively on this blog. Whether you are playing dumb or devils advocate, I have no interest in playing along.
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AE:
I am not playing dumb, I just don’t think broad categorizations of people are particularly helpful and frequently grossly over-simplifies the argument.
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Oligarchies are a lot more simple than those elites would like the rest of us to believe, and ignoring the plutocracy that rules this country is only helpful to them.
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“I personally think that the ruling elite should let common people have hope for a better life”
The attitude of a slave, “Masta, allow me to do. . . “
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Reblogged this on Middletown Voice and commented:
We know it’s a rhetorical question, but it’s a great point for which people need to fully understand.
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The premise of the article and the entire zombie “public schools should be like these elite private schools” argument remain as stupid as ever, but the author left out some “corporate reforms” that the top-flight elite private schools DO follow!
— Staff and faculty at these elite private schools are non-unionized at-will employees and are protected only by federal and state employment laws (yes, I’m aware of the handful of exceptions, like the U of C Lab School, which is an affiliate of one of the world’s largest, wealthiest, and most influential research universities)
— Staff and faculty receive far fewer benefits and pay for a greater share of the costs–higher health care premiums, a 403b rather than pension, etc.
— Staff and faculty are expected to work long hours and to make themselves accessible to students and families; admins have much more latitude with requiring teachers and staff to perform lunchroom, recess, drop-off, and pick-up duties (and indeed admins often pitch in as well).
— These schools have an enormous amount of freedom with curriculum and how they educate their children, and they are extraordinarily lean, administration-wise. They pay their school leaders generously and count on leadership and great working conditions to attract talent; the overwhelming majority of resources goes to the classroom.
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“These schools have an enormous amount of freedom with curriculum and how they educate their children,”
Talk about “stupid,” this is NOT an example of “corporate reforms.” That is reserved only for charters which are virtually unregulated. Public schools subjected to corporate “reforms” have to contend with ever increasing regulations –the exact opposite.
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“requiring teachers and staff to perform lunchroom, recess, drop-off, and pick-up duties ”
And this is different from public schools how?
And BTW… Not all private schools pay less than public.
In the Atlanta area, the elite schools pay and benefits are very similar. The extra perks ( paid trips to conferences, paid dues to professional organizations, fancy dinners out) are nice, too.
Maybe before you call other points of view stupid…..
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I know that some private schools are union schools. Are those high paying schools in the Atlanta area union?
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TE,
UMMMMM…
GA is a red state.
I think the phrase is ” right to work”?
No unions to speak of.
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