I received an email from an anonymous teacher in Eva Moskowitz’s charter chain called Success Academy (formerly known as Harlem Success Academy until Eva decided to move into other neighborhoods in New York City).
When everyone else in the state bombed on the Common Core tests, Eva’s schools had high scores.
I asked the teacher about what happens inside these hallowed halls. The teacher said the typical work day is 7 am-6 pm at school, plus work at home. And here are the methods:
“Focus on English Language Arts and Math. We spend the vast majority of class time teaching ELA and Math all year long. Kids have several blocks of each daily. We do not teach history or foreign languages in elementary school. We do have a good science program. They have a Specials period every day too. Aside from that, it’s reading, writing, math from 8:00AM to 5:00PM. Obviously the extended day and extended school year helps in terms of sheer volume of time.
“Put the best teachers in testing grades. During the first few months of school, teachers and assistant principals are shuffled between grades and even schools. The goal is to put the strongest teachers in grades 3 and up. So a strong Kindergarten teacher might suddenly find herself teaching fourth grade.
“Test prep starts in November: ELA test prep starts in November for two periods a week. After winter break, we have daily hourlong ELA test prep. Then we add math. By late February, we spend several hours a day on it. The last few weeks are almost all day test prep.
“Custom Test Prep Materials: I think many schools use practice workbooks from publishers like Kaplan, etc. We have people whose job it is to put together custom test prep packets based on state guidance. Much more aligned to common core and closer to the test than the published books I’ve seen. Also, teachers are putting together additional worksheets and practice based on what we see in the classroom. Huge volume of practice materials for every possible need (and we use it all, too). Also many practice tests and quizzes that copy format of the test.
“Intensive organization-wide focus on test prep: For the last months and weeks before the test, everyone from Eva on down is completely focused on test prep. Just a few examples….
“We have to give kids 1/2/3/4 scores daily. Kids are broken up into small groups based on the data and get differentiated instruction. If they get a 1, they stay back from recess or after school for extra practice.
“Thousands of dollars spent on prizes to incentivize the kids to work hard. Some teachers have expressed concern about bribing them with basketballs and other toys instead of learning for the sake of learning. The response is “prizes aren’t optional.”
“We get daily inspirational emails from principals with a countdown, anecdotes about the importance of state tests, and ever-multiplying plans for “getting kids over the finish line” (these get old fast).
“Old-fashioned hard work: Teachers are working nonstop during test prep. Literally pour 100% of yourself into it day in and day out. We work hard all year, but test prep brings the hours and workload to a new level. I think the same is true of all staff in schools and at Network.
“I think those are the main points. We do not cheat on the tests, as some critics speculate. But we do devote an extraordinary amount of resources to them each year, arguably at the expense of actual learning. The justification I’ve heard is that these tests can determine our kids’ futures and we owe it to them to make sure they’re prepared. Obviously we as an organization are judged by them as well, so we make it a priority. What I find most disturbing is that we claim that the test scores are a result of our excellent curriculum…no mention of test prep. If we have faith in the curriculum, why not allow us to teach it and skip the test prep?
Then came this email:
Ms. Ravitch,
I wrote to you earlier about Success Academy’s forced march. I apologize for remaining anonymous. I’m sure our PR team monitors all media outlets and I am really worried about losing my job.
It seems the news on the mandatory march is all over the web now, and I have an internal email to share, written by one of our directors, Jim Manly, in response to the backlash. It is copied below. To justify the march and everything else, senior management focuses on the positives and completely ignores the negatives. Eva employs the same techniques (one of her emails to teachers started, “When I walk through your classrooms, and see the incredible work that you are doing with our scholars, I just can’t understand how someone could try to oppose it. Why would anyone work against your tireless efforts to provide our scholars with a world-class education? How could science 5 days a week, and chess, and art, and sports, and raising the bar in math and reading be controversial? But it is.”)
Here is Jim Manly’s email:
Inspiration
“Why are we under attack?”
Eva asked this question at the leader-training day and it got me to thinking. Why do so many people, whose politics on many issues are described as progressive, have such a problem with charter schools? Consider the work we do each day and the families we serve who have been too long denied a realistic shot at upward social mobility in this country. Consider the failure factories that so many of us have worked in that produce absolutely abysmal results for the children they serve. Consider our results – truly the most outstanding in the state when demographic factors like income and parent education levels are considered. We are a true public policy success – proving that there is a solution to the issue of dysfunctional urban public schools that plagues our country and our educational establishment.
The honest answer to this question is clearly complicated. Part of it revolves around the very success that makes us so proud to work here. Many families who see our scholars clad in their orange and blue, in gorgeous classrooms, with high performing teachers get frustrated that this opportunity is denied their child. To them it doesn’t seem like their kids are possibly receiving the same amount of money and care that is being bestowed on our scholars. From this perspective the teacher’s union uses this apparent inequity to drum up suspicions that our schools operate beyond the public domain and are money machines created by big business. The fact is that teacher’s unions, with their huge bureaucracies and incredibly generous pension benefits, have so driven up the cost of public education that there is little room to spend on scholars and the resources they need to succeed. In addition, the job protections that have safeguarded teachers and principals alike are not as ironclad in our model and that is scary to those who fear that management will act capriciously and terminate employees without cause (in the most generous description of this fear). Politicians also fall in line because the unions have clout – they have money that is generated from mandatory dues and a motivated membership who remains politically active. Because charter schools serve such a small number of scholars it is easier to side with the majority rather than take a position that will embitter a well-funded and motivated supporter.
That leaves us at Success feeling like we work for Morgan Stanley. If you dare go on Gotham Schools’ blog you will see an outpouring of anger aimed at our work. While some of the questions are legitimate ones that we wrestle with everyday, the majority are either exaggerated examples of one scholar or teacher or completely fabricated hysteria designed to fire our opponents up. So despite our strong commitment to serve every scholar who walks through our doors, we are defined by the few who leave. Thus we cannot engage in the debate, like every public school, about the dilemma of how far we can go before we risk an entire class’ education in order to (poorly) serve a student with more severe needs who would benefit from a more appropriate setting. Unfortunately valid debates like this are lost in the noise about corporate privatization, rampant greed and other wild-eyed accusations that are the domain of the radical left and right. The rhetoric on the blogs is worthy more of conspiracy theories and tabloid journalism, not legitimate public policy debate. The sad truth is that the majority of the country simply doesn’t care enough about urban poverty and public schooling to rally around a cause that that is being fought on the fringes. So despite our incredible results we find ourselves characterized as the enemy by those with something to lose if we succeed.
The trick for our movement is to take the argument out of the fringes and in to the light of day. Success has built a better educational mousetrap that is reversing an endemic pattern of failure that haunts our urban public schools. We have shown that the staggeringly poor results of schools that serve predominantly poor children are grossly over-inflated. While there are educational issues that still require debate, the fundamental myth of destiny by tax bracket that lies at the heart of our country’s educational system has been exposed. So we must march. We need to take our case out to the mainstream and let them see that the only truly successful school in the city is going to have to pay rent. They need to understand that the way our city will reward a blue ribbon school in Harlem is by forcing it to cut its funding by 30%. We need to make people uncomfortable with the thought that under the name of progressive policy we are trying to close the only doors to opportunity that are available to children in poor communities. It would be easier if we didn’t have this burden and could just focus on teaching and learning. This work was never about our convenience however – it is about standing up for what is right. I look forward to standing with you on October 8th.”
That leaves unanswered this question: If a public school principal closed his or her school to conduct a political march, what would be the consequences?
Placing too much emphasis on increasing test scores and closing the “achievement gap” has led to a variety of unintended consequences. In my honest opinion, the lack of teachers investing in a student’s life, beyond the classroom, is one of the most damaging. More often than not, teachers are forfeiting the opportunity to start a club or coach a sports team, especially with regards to high-poverty public schools. We cannot afford to view education reform with one eye closed.http://wp.me/p3Lk1s-9U
So, let’s assume that everything that both the teacher and the administrator say is true. And no one who has commented has quarreled much with the validity of the test scores. In short, what if this model “works”? What are the implications of this statement for education policy, in the world according to “Success”?
1. Teachers should expect their work days to be 11 hours long. They should not expect to be able to participate in the education/raising of their own families;
2. Teachers should expect low wages, few benefits, and no retirement funds;
3. Teachers should expect their developing experience to count for nothing, not to mention their dedication;
4. Teachers should expect no due process should they be disciplined or fired, no matter how long they have dedicated their lives to their work;
5. Children should expect most of their days to be taken up with drill on the lowest level skills. Their “scholarly” credentials consist of being able to produce de-contextualized pieces of information and computation on demand.
6. Parents should expect their children to be “scholars” only in reading and math.
Is this what it means “to work”? Are sweatshops–for teachers and students alike–the price to be paid for this product? And will this product (the little scholars) really be in demand? Is there any value added by these policies? The answers, I conclude, is no.
Thank you. Teachers go home after work and shop for dinner, cook, feed their families, work on homework with their children, drive their children to other activities, etc. etc. It is sad that people want teachers to not have time to nurture and support their own families. We know that 80% of teachers are females who feel an extra burden to attend to their children and family. There are older teachers who have aging parents to care for. It is a sweatshop mentality that drives many of these schools. Use fear and intimidation of your workers to allow for people at the top to fill their pockets. If someone wants teachers to stay incredibly late then come up with a “second shift” of teachers. Why not? I can’t imagine keeping my own kid at school for almost 12 hours a day. At what age does this start? It has to get to a point where the kids are barely paying attention.
“The trick for our movement…”
The trick, in deed…
The “trick” to all the edudeformers’ machinations is an unquestioning belief in the ideology of educational standards, standardardized testing and that the “grading” of students. And that those malpractices are valid (when they are not), logical (when they are not), and that they are ethical (when they are not).
Until we, the anti-edudeformers, demonstrate to the people that those educational malpractices are INVALID, ILLOGICAL and UNETHICAL we will be on the retreat, back on our heels and/or always reacting instead of taking the fight to them. The “weapon” in our intellectual arsenal that is an MRV nuclear weapon of mass educational malpractice destruction is Noel Wilson’s “Educational Standards and the Problem of Error” found at:
http://epaa.asu.edu/ojs/article/view/577/700
Brief outline of Wilson’s “Educational Standards and the Problem of Error” and some comments of mine. (updated 6/24/13 per Wilson email)
1. A quality cannot be quantified. Quantity is a sub-category of quality. It is illogical to judge/assess a whole category by only a part (sub-category) of the whole. The assessment is, by definition, lacking in the sense that “assessments are always of multidimensional qualities. To quantify them as one dimensional quantities (numbers or grades) is to perpetuate a fundamental logical error” (per Wilson). The teaching and learning process falls in the logical realm of aesthetics/qualities of human interactions. In attempting to quantify educational standards and standardized testing we are lacking much information about said interactions.
2. A major epistemological mistake is that we attach, with great importance, the “score” of the student, not only onto the student but also, by extension, the teacher, school and district. Any description of a testing event is only a description of an interaction, that of the student and the testing device at a given time and place. The only correct logical thing that we can attempt to do is to describe that interaction (how accurately or not is a whole other story). That description cannot, by logical thought, be “assigned/attached” to the student as it cannot be a description of the student but the interaction. And this error is probably one of the most egregious “errors” that occur with standardized testing (and even the “grading” of students by a teacher).
3. Wilson identifies four “frames of reference” each with distinct assumptions (epistemological basis) about the assessment process from which the “assessor” views the interactions of the teaching and learning process: the Judge (think college professor who “knows” the students capabilities and grades them accordingly), the General Frame-think standardized testing that claims to have a “scientific” basis, the Specific Frame-think of learning by objective like computer based learning, getting a correct answer before moving on to the next screen, and the Responsive Frame-think of an apprenticeship in a trade or a medical residency program where the learner interacts with the “teacher” with constant feedback. Each category has its own sources of error and more error in the process is caused when the assessor confuses and conflates the categories.
4. Wilson elucidates the notion of “error”: “Error is predicated on a notion of perfection; to allocate error is to imply what is without error; to know error it is necessary to determine what is true. And what is true is determined by what we define as true, theoretically by the assumptions of our epistemology, practically by the events and non-events, the discourses and silences, the world of surfaces and their interactions and interpretations; in short, the practices that permeate the field. . . Error is the uncertainty dimension of the statement; error is the band within which chaos reigns, in which anything can happen. Error comprises all of those eventful circumstances which make the assessment statement less than perfectly precise, the measure less than perfectly accurate, the rank order less than perfectly stable, the standard and its measurement less than absolute, and the communication of its truth less than impeccable.”
In other word all the logical errors involved in the process render any conclusions invalid.
5. The test makers/psychometricians, through all sorts of mathematical machinations attempt to “prove” that these tests (based on standards) are valid-errorless or supposedly at least with minimal error [they aren’t]. Wilson turns the concept of validity on its head and focuses on just how invalid the machinations and the test and results are. He is an advocate for the test taker not the test maker. In doing so he identifies thirteen sources of “error”, any one of which renders the test making/giving/disseminating of results invalid. As a basic logical premise is that once something is shown to be invalid it is just that, invalid, and no amount of “fudging” by the psychometricians/test makers can alleviate that invalidity.
6. Having shown the invalidity, and therefore the unreliability, of the whole process Wilson concludes, rightly so, that any
result/information gleaned from the process is “vain and illusory”. In other words start with an invalidity, end with an invalidity (except by sheer chance every once in a while, like a blind and anosmic squirrel who finds the occasional acorn, a result may be “true”) or to put in more mundane terms crap in-crap out.
7. And so what does this all mean? I’ll let Wilson have the second to last word: “So what does a test measure in our world? It measures what the person with the power to pay for the test says it measures. And the person who sets the test will name the test what the person who pays for the test wants the test to be named.”
In other words it measures “’something’ and we can specify some of the ‘errors’ in that ‘something’ but still don’t know [precisely] what the ‘something’ is.” The whole process harms many students as the social rewards for some are not available to others who “don’t make the grade (sic)” Should American public education have the function of sorting and separating students so that some may receive greater benefits than others, especially considering that the sorting and separating devices, educational standards and standardized testing, are so flawed not only in concept but in execution?
My answer is NO!!!!!
One final note with Wilson channeling Foucault and his concept of subjectivization:
“So the mark [grade/test score] becomes part of the story about yourself and with sufficient repetitions becomes true: true because those who know, those in authority, say it is true; true because the society in which you live legitimates this authority; true because your cultural habitus makes it difficult for you to perceive, conceive and integrate those aspects of your experience that contradict the story; true because in acting out your story, which now includes the mark and its meaning, the social truth that created it is confirmed; true because if your mark is high you are consistently rewarded, so that your voice becomes a voice of authority in the power-knowledge discourses that reproduce the structure that helped to produce you; true because if your mark is low your voice becomes muted and confirms your lower position in the social hierarchy; true finally because that success or failure confirms that mark that implicitly predicted the now self-evident consequences. And so the circle is complete.”
In other words students “internalize” what those “marks” (grades/test scores) mean, and since the vast majority of the students have not developed the mental skills to counteract what the “authorities” say, they accept as “natural and normal” that “story/description” of them. Although paradoxical in a sense, the “I’m an “A” student” is almost as harmful as “I’m an ‘F’ student” in hindering students becoming independent, critical and free thinkers. And having independent, critical and free thinkers is a threat to the current socio-economic structure of society.
Discussion of these ideas should be a required part of the teacher college curriculum. Anyone know if there are courses offered to this effect?
Yes, Emmy. This was in my training and it’s also in the courses that I teach. That is one of the reasons why corporate “reformers” today have targeted Teacher Ed. They want to see blind loyalty there to quantitative assessments of academic achievement and a preference for BIG DATA, i.e., numbers, valued over qualitative data and measures of non-cognitive skills.
I am quite confused. If Success Academy were to be told that ALL subjects would be tested at the end of the year and all would be high-stakes, and that this would begin in Kindergarten (and since the CCS start there, this outcome may only be a matter of time), what would they do with their time allotments for test prep? Would students, and teachers, have to come in on Saturday and Sunday? Would they keep EVERYONE in the building until 9pm? Also, has anyone followed their graduates to see how they are doing in college? Are they prepared for something other than a standardized test? How well do they perform on the SAT, ACT, NAEP?
I believe the oldest Success “scholars” are in eighth grade this year, so there isn’t any SAT/ACT data, and I don’t believe NAEP data is available at an individual school/network level.
Success has gotten excellent results on state tests, with two very important caveats: one, when they say things like “We outscored Scarsdale etc.”, they are referring to raw proficiency rates, not average scores. Second, they do not take in any new students after the first day of school in any grade, and after second grade, they stop taking any new students, period. Everything is set up purely to optimize test scores.
Eva makes nearly $487K per year in salary and perks, and this is her list of “supporters:”
Eli and Edythe Broad Foundation
Walton Family Foundation
Doris and Donald Fisher Fund
Charter School Growth Fund
New Schools Venture Fund
Robin Hood Foundation
Sidney E. Frank Foundation
Carmen and Lucia Buck Foundation
Tiger Foundation
Maverick Capital Foundation
Achelis and Bodman Foundations
William E. Simon Foundation
Centerbridge Foundation
Arnold & Porter LLP
Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld LLP
Bain & Company
Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison LLP
Hertog Foundation
Ford Foundation
Hecksher Foundation for Children
Helmsley Foundation
Citybridge Foundation
Moriah Fund
Buck Foundation
Brown Foundation
Hayden Foundation
It’s time the free ride ended. She can afford to pay rent just like every other private management firm.
The underlying message is to save Eva and her rep…kids are props.
She doesn’t want the gravy train to end, too. Loved the Morgan Stanley analogy because it’s really closer to the truth than what they would like their staff and parents to believe. Their “supporters” provide funds, like the $1M last year from the Waltons –almost half of which went to her salary.
When massive test prep in two subjects in extended day schools is considered to be a “better mouse trap,” it’s time to start letting the mice go free…
What was up with that mouse trap comment? Odd and offensive…
…I mean odd and offensive in the piece…not you. 🙂
This doesn’t seem to be a cooperative model between public schools and charter schools, I must say.
Obviously they’re competing for resources, and that was the inevitable result of setting up two parallel school systems.
I think it’s a fundamental flaw and the rhetoric from national school reform and charter advocates isn’t going to matter.
I’m genuinely baffled at how they thought they could adopt “free market” reforms yet avoid all the downside that comes along with “free markets”.
Markets aren’t all flowers and candy. There’s winners and losers. Obviously, this charter chain feels they’ll lose if public schools win or they wouldn’t be launching this big PR effort.
If the public school parents respond in kind (and they will, inevitably, they’re battling for resources, after all) they’ll be ordered to “cooperate” but it won’t matter. The model is based on competition, not cooperation.
Welcome to free market theory in action, reformers! Too bad they put our kids right in the middle.
Indeed. You nailed it.
Where, in free markets, do some businesses get to pay no rent while others do have to pay rent?
It should be enough that the public schools are paying per child expenses to charter schools. They should not have to also pay building maintenance and other costs, while charters often benefit from foundation funding and are deregulated, and the public schools are HIGHLY regulated and rarely, if ever, get additional funds. I think it’s the fact that charters don’t require monetary investments by private management firms that they attract non-educators out to make big bucks.
Does anyone know if all of the charter schools, like this one, which uses the misnomer “scholar” instead of “students”, implement the same boot camp military style tactics with drill sergeant teachers as KIPP, Achievement First and Uncommon Schools? Does Success Academy?
“Where, in free markets, do some businesses get to pay no rent while others do have to pay rent?”
Well, not anywhere, which is the problem.
I agree with you. 90% of the complaints of public school advocates and supporters have to do with an unequal playing field. Public schools are at a disadvantage in the “market” reformers have set up.
My point is telling public school advocates to shut up and sit down and “cooperate” simply isn’t going to work in the competitive system they’ve set up. I certainly won’t do it. It’s unfair. Charter school proponents are free to fight for funding and facilities but public school advocates may not do so? That isn’t fair. Not only is it not “fair” it will never, ever work.
The system they’ve set up PRECLUDES cooperation. This particular fight over resources is an example of that. If public schools are the designated losers in this “market”, people who support public schools (like me) will object to that. Not only it is understandable, it is INEVITABLE.
I didn’t set this up as an adversarial system, but I certainly know how to operate within an adversarial system, just like this charter system operator is doing.
Linda is right, the children are the props and their education is the victim.
An education that will never see the light of day, just one long existence in a cave, straight up to adulthood where we can imagine what the money managers have ready for them at that point. Absolutely chilling and an ultimate shutdown of everything wise and wonder-filled in human beings.
The only way this gets resolved is if they go to a true extreme voucher system, where each child is given X amount of public funds and they choose a school. It will never be perceived as “equitable” unless that happens. This is the system hard Right conservatives have always wanted, of course.
Then we’ll move to stage two of the free market system, where we’ll see schools vying to enroll individual students between all of the publicly-funded charters and private schools, and kids will be smack in the middle of that fight, too.
Over 30 years of vouchers in Milwaukee has shown that vouchers don’t resolve anything.
Facts confuse the ideologues.
Or as Ronald Reagan, The Great Prevaricator, famously said, “Facts are stupid things.”
“our little scholars”
Scholar this, scholar that, scholar makes me want to holler!
Really, I can’t stand that either. It degrades the value of true scholars.
Oh yes..scholars spend their days preparing for tests, picking the right bubble and working their way through drill and kill packets.
How about automaton schoolers instead?
I consider myself a scholar. I research, I write, I read, I teach. I can tell you that learning how to take a test is not scholarship. One of the most damaging aspects of all this is that by referring to these test takers as scholars sets them up to never quite understand what scholarship is about. Scholars ask questions, challenge systems, and when they are really good at what they do, change the status quo. They do not quietly comply by demonstrating proficiency on multiple choice exams. They generate new ideas, theories and practices. Until Eva’s schools do that with their kids, those children are anything but scholars. It is very misleading and very sad.
Endless, high pressure test prep.
Who among us would want this for our own children/grandchildren/nieces/nephews?
The reason people don’t like SA schools is because they force public school students out of their space and resources, and they don’t pay or treat their teachers well.
Those are some reasons. There are dozens more, Eva herself being top of that list.
With that email, you would think that the charter schools were struggling and going to fail immediately and the only way to “save” them was to close the schools for this march. Ridiculous!
And don’t even get me started on not teaching history (history teacher here).
The supreme irony of this is that, according to Wikipedia, Moskowitz has both a BA and a PhD in HISTORY.
When a history major doesn’t see the value of teaching history in elementary school, this tells you right there that it’s only competing that matters –tested subjects, test prep and test scores are what this school is all about. And that has already boded well for the prospects of expansion.
With their massive test prep, two teachers per class, extended days and extended school year, fewer special ed and ELL students, high student attrition (and failure to fill empty seats), we should expect nothing less than high scores on bubble tests. And, since they started focusing on the Common Core sooner than most other schools, it would not be surprising if they used the Pearson test prep workbooks that are coordinated with the tests…
FYI, I don’t know if Pearson was involved in the “custom test prep materials” at SA, but I do know that Pearson does do customization for teachers and schools, as do most other textbook publishers these days. (One publisher did that so fast for my school district that they omitted all of their branding from the materials.)
I am a mother of a scholar at a Success Academy and I am very happy with my child’s educational experience. We transferred from a very well regarded school in the city because our child continued to express that they were bored in school. This was leading to some minor discipline issues and we felt it was important to find a more challenging environment so that we would not face a habit of discipline issues at school.
We could not be happier with the change that we have seen overall. Our child is engaged, confident and excited to go to school – something I hadn’t seen at all the previous year! And as far as incentives – or “prizes” rather, our child likes them, but it is the experience of being acknowledged for earning it that is the real thrill. That is what I heard about at dinner for days after! Additionally my child is reading beyond their grade level, asking math questions and asking for math games on our way to school and on weekends, and is experimenting with the strategy techniques they learn in chess class in other areas of play at home.
Say what you will about test prep and the schools methods. They may not be right for all kids, but it has transformed my child in a wonderful way in an out of the classroom. I am grateful to have Success Academy as an option for my child.
I have a grandson who attends a terrific public school in Brooklyn. He is bright, curious about the world, reads like a whiz, loves math, loves learning. He is a child, not a “scholar.” When you stop using the jargon, you sound more like a human being and not like a computer program.
“When you stop using the jargon, you sound more like a human being and not like a computer program.”
Or PR/advertising/branding firm.
I’ve heard this word for word at almost every hearing where Success is invading a school and I expect to hear the same script at the Oct. 15 Panel for Educational Policy meeting where Bloomberg will get the PEP to vote in a bunch of more schools where you can do test prep all day. Can we believe that children come home happy after 9 hours of the rigid program Success runs? Maybe in the Stepford Wives. I smell T-R-O-L-L.
Norm – We are in out 1st year at the school, and I haven’t attended any hearings. when the school first opened it wasn’t on my radar… I just figured we’d send our kids to the neighborhood school that was well regarded. So I don’t know what other parents have said about Success. Why is it so difficult for you to believe that we just like the school and what its doing for my child? Are they tired after school? Yes. Is the day long? Yes. We burn off some steam and unwind for a bit after school then do some homework while we make dinner and finish with the reading before bed. Because of the longer day my child does not do after school programs which they had in the past and a lot of their former classmates do – those go till 5pm by the way – making it just as long of a day. But like I said in my original post, the change we’ve seen in our child’s behavior and attitude about school, and their improvement in reading and math from last year has made me believe we made the right decision for us. I know that my opinion is not a popular one here, and I doubt I will change anyone’s mind about how they feel about the concept behind Success Academy. I just felt it was unfair for the conversation to be so one sided. Don’t just vilify those of us whose kids struggled in a traditional school and needed something different. I am a real mother, who wants the best education for her child. I failed to find that perfect match last year. I may have found it now… I am optimistic. But I am grateful to have had another option.
“We are in out 1st year at the school”
So this glowing review is based on the child having attended SA for about one month or so!
That says it all…
Please keep your child in school on October 8th.
Don’t force him or her to march for Eva’s wallet.
Your a “mother of a scholar at Success Academy,” yet you refer to this product of your loins, your offspring, with non-gender-specific, plural pronouns such as “they” and “their.” Are you uncertain of the sex of your own child?
I’ve been a professional writer and editor for over a quarter century, and I call baloney, Mom.
It’s odd enough that you refer to the possibility of your kid acting like a pill as having “to face a habit of discipline issues at school.” Stranger still that you adopt the jargon of Success Academy by referring to your child as “a scholar.” But your truly bizarre use of “they” and “their” makes me believe that you’re no more the mother of a scholar at Success Academy than I am, and that you are, instead, a rather ham-handed PR flack intent on spin control.
Ha!
Maybe it’s Mrs. Manly, protecting Jim.
Kevin- I am just protecting my child’s anonymity. I never refer to their gender when participating in any online forums. But believe what you want to believe. I am fully aware that one Mom commenting on one thread of one blog is not gonna do much in the way of spin control. I’m just trying to be a part of a very one sided conversation.
Perhaps we can all agree that each child is unique and different students can benefit from different approaches to education.
Which students can get from a regular public school if the reformers would just leave us alone and let us teach, and stop trying to homogonize and standardize everyone.
I think that there is far more heterogeneity in private education because parents are not restricted to a single school. This allows private schools to specialize. I do not see how public schools can come close to the same heterogeneity as private schools without moving away from the traditional geographically defined admission system for each building.
As if we, the educators on this blog, didn’t already know that. Thanks for pointing out the obvious TE…what would we do without you? Don’t answer and don’t ask a question.
It is my hope that diverse approaches to education will not be seen as the exclusive domain of private schools and the families that can afford the private school tuition.
Linda, not fair. I almost choked laughing out loud.
There should be a blog warning equivalent to a bumper sticker which says, “I break for charter schools”
If you add magnet schools I might put it on my car.
This is very misleading, since the parent failed to mention until another later post that this is the child’s first year there and the student has not been at the school long enough to have even experienced test prop –which according to the teacher, “starts in November.”
I’m guessing that the misleading discrepancy that you note–between this “parent’s” satisfaction with the school and the fact that the child has been there for approximately two months–is further evidence that this “parent” is a PR flak for Success Academy.
Not trying to mislead. I actually did say in my first comment that we transferred from another school. Didn’t realize my full family bio was required to participate in the conversation. I don’t read all of your personal histories in your comments. Like I said before; we have seen an noticeable improvement in our child since starting there… just a few months ago. We are happy with how our child is doing at the school and optimistic about our future there.
You said that your child transferred, not that the child had just transferred this fall. Big difference, especially when all the test prep bemoaned by the teacher doesn’t even start until next month.
So the secret sauce is narrowing the curriculum and endless test prep. Who knew? Well, everybody. It isn’t shocking but it does support the theories of what is necessary to get high scores. (Isn’t this a similar approach to the one in Dallas which led to the firing of a principal?)
This approach benefits the adults more than the kids. “Look at our wonderful school.” (That successfully gamed the system.) We have to hear reformers say that unions put the adults first, well, so does SA’s approach.
$ucce$$ for Eva = $ucce$$ for $chooler$
I don’t mean for this to come off as a defense of Success’s practices–after all, I’m one of the commenters who apparently makes Gotham Schools such a scary place for Jim Manly–but if it makes the mole feel any better, almost all NYC DOE K-8 schools teach nothing but math and ELA all day and spend excessive amounts of time on test prep as well. I’m hopeful that CCLS and aligned curricula will convince principals to let their teachers teach great content and keep the test prep to a minimum.
“if it makes the mole feel any better, almost all NYC DOE K-8 schools teach nothing but math and ELA all day and spend excessive amounts of time on test prep as well.”
That was my first thought, too.
That was my first thought too. I am engaged in redoing my assessments to include ONLY questions my students would encounter on their state-mandated standardized test for the subject I teach. This has meant scouring the internet for released versions of my test.
I used to assess my kids based on what they knew from conclusions they garnered while performing labs and activities. No more. If it’s not on the test, it is now not on my quizzes or tests.
And somehow I am a “better” teacher than works harder than his peers? Not really, I just know how to devise excellent practice standardized test questions for my students.
ME,
“excellent practice standardized test questions”
That’s an oxymoronic statement if there ever was one.
Then charters are not very innovative and apparently it isn’t a miracle, eh?
I would contest it is easier to subvert when you have experience, support and due process rights.
High turnover, a fleet of newbies and constant supervision breeds fear, anxiety and conformity….not a great environment for baby “scholars”.
Yes Tim. Unfortunately this is true. But why have dual school systems doing the same thing? The money spent on charters could be put to so much better use. Eva instead of putting all her schools in Harlem where she could have taken over many schools with all the problem students. Instead she is planting her seed in every part of the city where she can keep trying to cream students. But her main goal is building political bases all over the city for a future run for mayor.
You can keep hoping. Test prep leads to money at some or multiple levels. Money is the great arbiter of all decision making in America today. But if one wants to maintain an optimistic perspective, then let us all hope that you are right.
A couple of you have mentioned these points already, but I have to second them:
1) A child or teenager wearing a uniform being forcefed test prep and Orwellian terminology is not a “scholar.” Very few people deserve that lofty and dignified label.
2) Did he actually use “mousetrap” as if it were a complimentary term?
You guys have really never heard the phrase “build a better mousetrap”? Dewey called him “The Philosopher of Democracy,” for heaven’s sake!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Build_a_better_mousetrap,_and_the_world_will_beat_a_path_to_your_door
That Emerson is the source of this allusion makes it all the more horrifying. He would have deemed the type of education exemplified by this school nothing less than a nightmare.
One would think.
So, in darwinistic education, the number one survival skill is success at taking a common core test. While this skill may be good for college, not sure that such a specialized skill will be helpful for most careers.
I’m not even sure that’s entirely true – the comment “While this skill may be good for college” – at least not in the field of science.
Research abilities at the collegiate level, at least in the science courses, hinge on being able to think critically.
I am not aware of any liberal arts major where drill and kill test taking strategies are especially helpful.
I think it depends on who is teaching the college course, as well as their backgrounds.
I recently reviewed a course and syllabus for a 400 level class, taught by a professor with a criminal justice background, and 80% of the final grade in that course was based on tests. A major research paper for the course was worth only 8% of the grade.
While the course addresses legal issues, it is not offered through the criminal justice program, so most students taking the course are not pursuing that kind of degree. No one earned an A in the course, some got Fs and several students dropped the class.
I found this all rather shocking, until I realized that while the person teaching the course has a PhD, they have had no formal training in education. So, although they are not standardized assessments, the testing craze has already hit some places in higher education.
Hubris thy name is Jim Manley.
“Students, for a prime example of hubristic thought I turn your attention to Mr. Manley’s last paragraph.”
Anyone have background information on Manly…certification, years taught, grade levels, subjects, setting, etc…or is this another TFA dropout?
Yes, Linda, He IS from TFA: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D07E4D6103CF937A25751C0A9649D8B63
Hard to grasp the timeline and details though, because the NYT article says he taught at two NY schools BEFORE TFA and his LinkedIn Page lists Echoing Green as his last job (for one year) –10 years prior his start at SA.
Dear Anonymous: Update your resume and watch your back. I almost guarantee that at this very minute Eva is channeling a significant portion of her not inconsiderable resources into finding you. If and when she does, she will make every effort to destroy you. Good luck, and thanks for speaking out. Wish I had something more positive to say.
“We do not cheat on the tests, as some critics speculate.”
Yes you do. Teaching to the test is a form of legalized cheating. Teaching to the test, and especially what I like to call “teaching THE test” (for those teachers lucky enough to be handed the test for a “little while” or are hand picked to do read alouds), invalidates the test results. The test results are at this point nullified.
Such an approach is a measure of how well the students were inundated with the material, not to measure how much they know. There is a huge difference.
“. . . invalidates the test results.”
The whole process of educational standards and standardized testing is so riddled with error that it is completely invalid. What you state is just another of the errors involved that do indeed invalidate the results. See Wilson’s work referenced above.
No, it’s not cheating, at least as “cheating” is commonly defined. But it’s similarly unethical. It’s poor pedagogy and a poor use of class time, a misuse of test results, a misunderstanding of the purposes of tests in education, a misunderstanding of education, and a warped sense of what is valuable in life.
Cheating per se is not the biggest problem—even from the POV of psychometrics.
Here is what Daniel Koretz [psychometrician with experience at all levels in standardized tests, with teaching experience and a Harvard professorship, not to mention other qualifications] writes is the “dirty little secret of high-stakes testing:
“Scores on the tests used for accountability have become inflated, badly overstating real gains in student performance. Some of the reported gains are entirely illusory, and others are real but grossly exaggerated. The seriousness of this problem is hard to overstate. When scores are inflated, many of the most important conclusions people base on them will be wrong, and students—and sometimes teachers—will suffer as a result.”
[MEASURING UP: WHAT EDUCATIONAL TESTING REALLY TELLS US, 2009, paperback edition, p. 235]
It has only gotten worse since his book came out. And this doesn’t even take into account Duane Swacker’s reasonable objection that the whole standardized testing enterprise is so flawed that it is invalid.
Finally, even if an argument can be made for test prep it eventually comes around in practice to not just teaching “to the test” but simply teaching “the test.” Which even in psychometric terms defeats the very purpose of accurately quantifying [if that is possible] student learning.
But if the purpose is $tudent $ucce$$, and $tudent $ucce$$ is measured by high test scores…
[Always remembering the immortal wisdom of one of the high priests of Testolatry, Dr. Steve Perry: “Men lie and women lie but numbers don’t.]
Then $ucce$$ Academy is a Cagebusting $ucce$$.
Make$ $en$e, don’t you think?
🙂
Please, KTA, give credit where credit is due as I’m not the one who has shown the invalidities of the process, I’m just an echo chamber. The credit is definitely Noel Wilson’s. A “convert” like Diane. He worked in the belly of the beast and intimately knows all the machinations that the psychometricians devise to make the enterprise appear valid. His account of how he came to the position is in his dissertation and that is part of the reason I urge all to read it completely, preferably a number of times as I know that each time I read it I get more out of it. It, of course, being his “Educational Standards and the Problem of Error” referenced above. As Quixote was to a true knight errant I am to Wilson. (Hell, I don’t even have a damsel to impress yet!)
Endless test prep aside, and intending no disrespect to the students at the school or the teacher who is the source for the post, I still have a hard time believing that cheating did not take place. At a minimum, they are such an aberration when compared to their peers that they should be investigated.
I don’t have the statistical chops to be be able to parse the scores, but it seems to me they are so much higher than those of similar schools, that alone raises a red flag.
Then again, calling in ex-cops to investigate and intimidate teachers is something that only happens to public schools and public school teachers, not politically-juiced charters.
Wait, did this charter do well on the state tests or something? Sorry, I don’t know too much about this particular school.
Not that I care about how well they did on the stupid things. The description she provides of what happens in the school reads like something out of my worst nightmare.
Yes, Jim, the particular school in question scored among the top five in the entire state, at a time when test scores collapsed across the board. Curious, to say the least.
I’m semi-innumerate, something I’m not proud of, so I can’t parse the math, but my sense is that this school scored several standard deviations above its peers. Don’t things eventually reach a point where the probabilities become too unlikely, and one must look elsewhere for the explanation?
If I’m obviously wrong about this, feel free to correct me. Otherwise, someone should take a peek at those exams.
Sorry, I failed to read the top of Diane’s post closely.
Yes, that’s definitely worthy of a closer look.
Success Academy is creepy mind games under a thick shell of smothering and intimidation. Moskowitz’s techniques are so far from what one would expect in a democratic society that one reading this post without knowledge of it happening on American soil would wonder not only where in the world such is happening but also whether the entire situation is science fiction.
Having been around since the beginning of this and having been a supporter of Yvonne Chan and Joe Lucente who were some of the first here in the beginning I then started to learn the truth about this scam. Originally, I like them because the system was so corrupt then I realized this.
Not one of those charter school people has ever been seen at LAUSD, the second larges school district in the U.S., for all the children of the district. I mean not even once. Not Ben Austin, Steve Barr or even one of them. All they come for is their personal profit and standing. In the beginning I think it was different at Vaughn Street and Joe Lucente’s school as they worked together but then the billionaires saw the new profit center for massive influx of new revenue as the DOD winds down and all you had to say was “For the Children” and they gave you what you wanted.
Now we know the truth. It is a giant joke on us and our youth and massive profits and control of young minds to them as it was for Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Kim Il Hung and Pol Pot. All they did is look at history and saw massive money and power for them. Now we have their number and the documented proof of the basically RICO operation they run nationwide and now internationally as they are doing the same thing in England and other places.
With Jaime Aquino resigning withing two hours of my friend speaking at the committee meeting about their illegal moves on Title 1 and the Title 1 and iPad corruption fully documented with Aquino’s and Deasy’s name all over them. For the first time the billionaires were not way ahead of us as no one knew he would resign. This time we moved before them. By the end of the day it was announced CORE-CA had a letter to the board of education stating the requirement for a public process to replace Aquino and other high officials like Deasy also. The next day on the Ravich blog and by the next day people are saying they want the public process also. This is how to stop the charter schools also. Charter schools are growing by 10%/year at LAUSD. Soon to be 117,000 the same as do not come to school everyday for a lost revenue of over $1.25 billion. Charters do not care and never will as they take the others while LAUSD and many other districts, we have the proof, drive off their low performing or behavioral problem students to have a phony raise in test scores. LAUSD is bragging about a 3 point API increase. That is bad. If those 117,000 students were in school the scores would drop and at the same time those students and society would gain. Do you ever see a charter school advocate talk about this?
A must read…will link full editorial in the CT Post:
Ann Evans de Bernard, Ph.D recently retired as principal of Waltersville School in Bridgeport. In a two part commentary piece, she asks When is school reform not reform?
And then, with the power and authority that only comes from having served on the front lines of the effort to provide Bridgeport’s children with a quality education, she rips apart the falsehoods being spread by the education reform industry.
This is a must read article that you can find here:
http://www.ctpost.com/opinion/article/Ann-Evans-de-Bernard-When-is-school-reform-not-4863554.php
When is school reform not reform?
Connecticut has received some amount of attention lately for the so-called school reform movement being sponsored and directed by Gov. Dannel P. Malloy, Commissioner of Education Stephan Pryor, and in Bridgeport, nationally known Superintendent Paul Vallas. “School reform efforts” are the words most often used in article after article about the current movement in education, which actually amounts to an effort to treat our poor neighborhoods and schools like part of some pre-war colonial empire. This movement is being heavily funded by millionaires who, as we know, do not send their children to public schools and who pretend to believe their paternalistic views on what “other people’s children” need are benevolent.
For supporters of such reform efforts — those who actually believe the agenda is reform — the accomplishments most often touted here in Connecticut are new textbooks, the opening of new schools, the changing of administrative categories and duties, the hiring of America’s “brightest and best” through the Teach for America program, and rampant transfer and reclassification of school personnel based on a new reliance on evaluation systems hooked to standardized test scores. So far, that’s what we have in the way of school reform. So what is reform, really? And how do school reform efforts today compare to what happened in schools when I grew up?
One would hope that by 2013 “school reform efforts” might include novel ideas, modernization or some hypothetical silver bullet that would once and for all equalize the educational opportunities for vastly unequal groups of children with vastly unequal housing, vastly unequal language backgrounds and vastly unequal lives.
Read both part I and part II:
here http://www.ctpost.com/opinion/article/Ann-Evans-de-Bernard-Revisiting-the-meaning-of-4866687.php
Why is SA school opening schools in other neighborhoods? Why not open more schools in this existing neighborhood first to see if their model truly works. It could be that they just have the students who would have been successful in their neighborhood school.
I am not a fan of charters, but can someone show me data that areas with charter schools have an overall net increase in better test results?
I’m confused as to what is being objected to in this article.
SA apparently has determined what their core competency is (prepping kids for standardized tests) and has done a remarkably good job of achieving their goals. I would not send my children there, but if high standardized test scores was a parental priority for me, I might be interested. They certainly seem to work hard and know what they’re doing.
With all due respect, just because someone offers something, does not mean that it is okay to offer it, particularly when what they are offering hurts the person choosing it. A more nuanced and critical understanding of what is occurring in these test prep factories reveals that parents who elect to send their children to a school such as this either do not understand what education should truly offer a child (e.g., the development of critical thinking to be able to challenge the status quo and understand multiple perspectives, for example) or have been taught to fear their children’s not having access to power. They believe, unquestioningly, that for their children to have access to success, they must do well on these tests. It is a straw man argument, and the corporatists ed-reformers win it each time. Unfortunately, it will take a decade to know the full impact of these test prep factories in terms of students’ capacities to do well in college, participate in society as citizens who understand what democracy is and should be, and what skills and knowledge they have about the world, themselves and how to function successfully. Fear rules the day. Parents have bought into the ideas being sold to them because many lack an understanding of these and other educational issues and they fear for their children’s precarious futures.
It’s non-education by dictatorship, hyper drill and kill on steroids. Where in the real world, in any work place is this how it’s done? These kids lives are being destroyed for the benefit of the adults egos and financial interests. Get the picture now? What kind of job can someone with a substandard mis-education like this expect to get, if any?
You don’t know what is being objected to here?
This is a charter school. That means our tax dollars are supporting this outrage, which to me is self-evidently wrong. If it were a private school that would be another matter; but then again, if it were a private school it would quickly cease to exist, since the wealthy would never subject their own children to such a soulless educational experience.
Read the description of what happens at the school again. If you don’t understand what is wrong with that then I’m not sure what else to say.
I am so sick of the “business model” concept that charters implement. Charter schools are all about the “bottom line” which means getting high test scores at the cheapest amount of money invested while avoiding any public oversight. This business model also means cheap wages for teachers, huge workload schedules that are not sustainable for teachers to stay longer than a few years, no pensions, as well as a totalitarian form of administration. The “product” which is kids, can be tweaked by imposing harsh punishments that would never fly in a regular district school. Lastly, if all else fails with a defective “product”, all the charters need to do is counsel out the defect and replace it with a new widget.
This child abuse charter should be challenged to have it’s “scholars” take some tests that they haven’t been prepped for that include writing an essay among other things. If the kids are actually learning to think then they should do reasonably well. This is a real world challenge, the type that the kids will face when they enter the job market and need to think outside the box and be “cage busters”. There’s no test prep in the workplace now is there. Let’s see Success Academy put up or shut up. We can even offer the kids prizes for just participating since that’s what they’re used to. How about it Eva, let’s see what your kids can do on a level, real world playing field without all the test prep. Considering that she imposes a despots level of compliance, I’m sure that she could find kids to do this. If she declines, no matter the excuse, she has even more to hide than we already rightly suspect. No excuses Eva!
Dear Principal,
I lost any respect I might have been giving you at paragraph three. No it is not OK, to counsel a child out. Ever. If it is claimed that the school you run is a public school, then you must educate every child that enters. No it is not OK to claim that an entire school suffers when one child needs special attention. If you do not have the stamina, the understanding or the knowledge to educate this child, you may not claim to be a public school.
While it may be convenient for you to lump all who do not share in the admiration of your glowing written selfy, one does not need to be a teacher or even a unionized teacher, nor does one have to be on the far left to feel real distaste at the kind of teach-to-the test atmosphere that permeates your system. It is wrong and distasteful for you to cast those who do not share in the enthusiasm you have for yourself and your system as having motives that are simply for self preservation or financial.
The only question I have about the customized test-prep materials is this: Is any of it from Pearson because some of the ELA questions came right out of the Pearson test-prep booklets which to me is an unfair advantage.
“The fact is that teacher’s unions, with their huge bureaucracies and incredibly generous pension benefits,…”
Unions have benefits? For their members? Uh, no. Bargaining units negotiate for compensation for DOING THE JOB. And if this moron wants to talk about “generous benefits,” all he needs to do is review the paycheck of any NJ teacher from the last five years and projected into the next. There is nothing “generous” about paying 1.5% of the healthcare premium along with an exponentially increasing percentage of one’s salary for health benefits when you make far less than your counterparts with similar experience and credential levels in the private sector. Why is it that everything else goes up in price yet teachers are getting paid less? Oh, that’s because POLITICIANS have decided to mandate these payments to “help” district budgets so that they can have the money to pay for more admins to implement tenure-busting evaluation practices and to buy more technology to implement CC resources and testing.
But then again, why should he allow facts to get in the way of his rhetoric?
“…have so driven up the cost of public education that there is little room to spend on scholars and the resources they need to succeed.”
Wrong again. The cost of education has to do with far more than paying professionals for DOING THE JOB. See above paragraph.
“In addition, the job protections that have safeguarded teachers and principals alike are not as ironclad in our model”…hence the opposition.
“…and that is scary…” Actually, the non-union charter “model” is despicable in that it proliferates working conditions that prevent ANY quality-of-life for its employees. I don’t know about all the “parents” posting here who are championing the hours this school requires of their child’s teachers, but if it were me, I’d want my child’s teachers to be well-rested, healthy, and unstressed. Teaching is stressful enough–we don’t need it to take over a person’s entire life. Let’s also not forget what these hours do to the development of children–which is even a bigger priority. These models overwork and burn them out, too.
“…to those who fear that management will act capriciously and terminate employees without cause (in the most generous description of this fear).” And EVERYONE knows that “management” NEVER would do anything like THAT, right?
“Politicians also fall in line because the unions have clout – they have money that is generated from mandatory dues and a motivated membership who remains politically active.”
No union membership has more money than Eva’s patrons. Not even collectively.
“Because charter schools serve such a small number of scholars it is easier to side with the majority rather than take a position that will embitter a well-funded and motivated supporter.”
Majority? Apparently, this man doesn’t read the papers.
So much BULL$@!!, so little brain. And yet, he’s in charge of “scholarin’ ” children?
My Catholic elementary school got superb results for $200 a year, and the principal also taught 50 eighth grade boys.
We had fun “races” with math and spelling to add some dash to learning, Rows 1,2,3,4, and 5 making up the teams. We talked about what our reading assignments told us factually and what they meant to the characters – that was the only touchy feely time.
Literacy and numeracy were expected and the teachers got it through homework and class recitation and math problems put on the board by students. Chapter tests every 7 to 10 days for EVERY subject. Separate books for Grammar and Spelling, often so old our mothers patched them together with duct tape getting ready for the new school year.
It worked, it was cheap, and it helped us lower working class kids to climb the ladder to college and beyond. This is not rocket science. Quit reading what the experts have written. Do what has always worked for poor kids.
Apples and oranges. If my well respected Catholic university thought parochial schools have the magic formula for teaching P12 children in poverty, they would bottle and sell it. They don’t claim to be able to do that, because they know that Catholic schools serve different populations from the public schools, which have to take everyone. Catholic schools get highly motivated and supportive parents, most of whom earn enough income to be able to pay tuition each year.
And public education has been run for decades by politicians and corporate leaders who don’t listen to education experts.
How much were the teachers paid? What type of benefits did they receive? Were they expected to take lower pay because of their love of the faith? Were they part of the clergy? I remember reading a story about an athlete who went to a catholic school. This athlete said they told his dad, “We can’t do anything for him.” and was basically told to leave the school. The student had a learning disability. I’m not bashing Catholic schools, it is just a reality that they can’t serve all children.
Diane is on msnbc,Chris Hayes in one minute.
Gary Rubenstein, the great “miracles schools” myth buster, analyzed Success Academy after their scores came out this summer.
Amongst the issues, beside all the test prep, they have fewer special ed and ELL students than public schools they co-locate with, high rates of student attrition and about 50% of their teachers leave annually. Most classes have two teachers, and TFAers work as assistants their first year there: http://garyrubinstein.teachforus.org/2013/08/13/how-to-define-success/
50% turnover says it all. Isn’t it amazing how the article above talks about unions using up all of the money for education? Charters are low paying and have very little in the way of supplies for teachers. The teachers are treated like garbage. I think Eva should lower her salary to show her love for the children. Maybe, she could reduce it to five figures instead of six.
the turnover at SA schools are LOWER then their neighboring schools. Read the comments in gary’s story. He is badly mishandeling the facts….
Diane, I have to question your judgement of publishing the whistle blowers emails. You seem so obsessed with proving your point that you jeapordized yourr sources identity, lively hood and future career – why? So you can hold up the smoking gun and say “I told you so”. It seems this educator was reacing out with altruistic intentions, turning to someone she clearly looked up too – she may have some nievete about the ability to be identified – but Diane, your a politician and you damn well know better. How does republishing her emails and labeling her a mole benefit anyone except you? Why not paraphase what she shared with you in trust – why not confide in one of your many connections, handle the matter with some professionalism and forethought to the consequences your actions have on other people. I am dissapointed your more about being right and winning at all cost than you about meaningful action for public education.
I never publish the email or identity of any whistleblower.
In the letter to which you refer, I don’t know the whistleblower’s email or identity.
We don’t know their identity or email either, so the charges against Diane are unfounded and ridiculous.
As of 2012, SA had opened 14 schools since 2006. Finding this staff member amongst over 400 would not be as easy as one might think, without identifying info.
BTW, the SA website says they plan to open 6 more schools soon and they have a goal of 40 schools. That’s 20 new schools in 8 years, so this is a very rapidly expanding private management enterprise. It’s no wonder, when they get free rent.
This sounds like the insiders’ route to “Success” for CEO Eva and her nearly $500K annual pay…
The targeted expansion is much greater, “Success Academy Seeks To Open 100 New York Charter Schools In Next Decade”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/27/success-academy-new-york-charter-schools_n_3822318.html
The letter I read describes a teacher reaching out and sharing information voluntarily. I saw the publishing of the letter as giving this over-worked teacher a portal to speak his/her truth…not exploiting her.
We already know that the teaching environment described is fear-based and does not tolerate murmuring in the ranks. Being forced [read “encouraged”] to march and give one’s personal time to the business (not the students) and to publicly identify oneself (don’t forget to smile for the marketing photo-ops, which will surely be all over social media) with a philosophy in which you do not completely believe is manipulative and abusive.
I thought the writer made an excellent, telling point:
“What I find most disturbing is that we claim that the test scores are a result of our excellent curriculum…no mention of test prep. If we have faith in the curriculum, why not allow us to teach it and skip the test prep?”
Pretty sure the Success Academy is doing damage control on your blog, Ms. R. The fight is on!
A brief comment, as it’s late: “standardized” tests (& they are NOT standardized, as they are neither valid nor reliable) mean NOTHING at all. Once again, bragging about test scores only amounts to bragging about the insane amount of time (& money that should be used on students some other way) spent on test prep. And not teaching history? Also insane–“those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.”
$ucce$$ Academy, I fear, is an oxymoron in & of itself, like “the success of failure” on the new, recent NYS tests, so touted by Duncan, Bloomberg, Cuomo & King.
Parents, do not be fooled.
While I have no qualms about where parents send their students, I do not think they have to right to push for co-locations. Those schools belong to the students and parents who put their heart and soul into the school and no one has the right to take up space while making a profit.
That being said, I also have some insight to Success. When it first opened, Eva hired some really good people to help run it. One was the brother of a colleague with ties to the DoE, and the other a well-respected principal from Queens. As time went on my colleague told me how Eva was disrespectful to the principal and teachers. My colleague was thinking of working for Success after his retirement, but upon hearing the horror stories, reconsidered.
But let’s also remember that Success throws out students if they require an IEP. That is not a “caring” “nurturing” school IMHO.
I’m not going to sit and debate all of the myths I’m seeing in these comments, or reflect on the obvious attempt of Ms Ravitch to continue her hatred of Eva Moskowitz despite the 7000 students who are thriving in her schools (mine being one of them). But I really despise reading comments such as your last sentence about Success pushing out/throwing out/ not helping children with special needs and IEPs. My son has an IEP, and Success helped him to get it. My son receives services and also received them will under the ‘at risk’ heading when the CSE felt his anxiety attacks and other issues didn’t warrant an IEP. My son is also currently being evaluated for a diagnosis of Aspergers (which his doctors feel will more than likely be confirmed). His best friend, who also has an IEP and is a Success scholar is autistic, has OCD and ADHD. So please, get your facts straight, and by facts I mean not reading something off of someone’s blog who claims they know the facts. I am talking the cold hard verified facts that anyone who makes claims like these should have the basic knowledge to do. Because in reality when someone makes claims without unbiased facts, or use only partial information, they make themselves look like fools. But anyone who has a halfway decent education and a little common sense and critical thinking skills would already know that. **and no, I don’t work for Success, I have never been paid by Success and I will continue to fight for charter schools AND traditional public schools if they are doing what is right by the children of this city – which is what ever adult should be doing.
First, I am happy to hear Eva has changed her policy regarding IEP. However, my story was factual and also made the local papers. I stand behind the fact of teachers leaving her first school as well. I wish your son the best.
Given this article from August 30, 2013, SchoolGal is not talking about a cold case here –or even just one case: “Success Academy parent’s secret tapes reveal attempt to push out special needs student”
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/education/success-academy-tapes-reveal-attempt-transfer-student-article-1.1441098#ixzz2dTHZicLZ
Newspaper articles such as these are not “blogs” either: “Parents furious over shoddy treatment of special needs children at two charter schools: Success Academy charter schools run by Eva Moskowitz have suspended young boys up to 50 days, say parents”
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/parents-furious-shoddy-treatment-special-needs-children-charter-schools-article-1.1289019
SchoolGal has nothing to apologize for. Here is another recent article, “Success Academy school chain comes under fire as parents fight ‘zero tolerance’ disciplinary policy: The charter school chain Success Academy is being criticized for its high suspension rate, as parents complain that special-needs kids are pushed out and students are being denied due process.”
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/education/success-academy-fire-parents-fight-disciplinary-policy-article-1.1438753
Considering the chart provided comparing the suspension rates between Success Academy and neighborhood public schools, there’s a lot more to this than just rumors and a number of parents are concerned.
Typically charters serve a limited number of Special Ed. students. They mainly have a full-inclusion model and do not offer the full spectrum of services. For example, they usually don’t have Resource classes that serve a small classroom of students. Those students are out in the mainstream classes that have special ed co-teachers. It is much cheaper this way and doesn’t use up as much space. The higher costing special education student with severe disabilities are not serviced by these schools. Overall, they serve a much lower percentage of IEP students. I know darn well they screen applicants at many charters.
Your comment “success throws out students if they require an IEP…” Is absolutely 100% false. My neighbors child attends a Success Academy. She has a pretty strong learning disability along with no less than 5 (!) other kids within her class. That’s her class room, not the entire grade “class”. Many of them are pulled out of class regularly for their 1 on 1 special ed. My neighbors child, who I care for, is getting SO much individualized attention to get her up to speed with math. The school realized she had a problem, got several teachers together to discuss her issue specifically and then formed a plan to help her as a team. I’m sorry, but that, to me at least, is unheard of within the public school system. I myself have a child at ps 41 struggling with reading AND math, I did not find out about his problem until parent teacher conf.!!!! This, I’m sorry, is a point in success academy’s favor. Maybe all the extra attention my neighbors child is getting is for the test prep, who knows. But she is LEARNING and although she is behind and has a learning disability she is thriving in other ways. She also now reads better than my own son 2 years her senior. She could not read a word going into school this year.
It may be that Eva is building this empire to pad her pockets. She might be doing it at the expense of her teachers “quality of life” -which is their choice, btw. However, all I see and hear from next door and the many times I have gone to pick up her child, is a school that is caring, fun and highly individualized. I challenge each of you to sign up to take a tour of the school. How can you simply decide based on media reports. “Moles inside” (seriously?) and misinformed people. Go see for YOURSELVES. I was adamantly AGAINST success academy and tried to persuade my neighbor to not send her lovely child there. 5 months later, I am changing my mind and wish I could enroll my own son. (They do not have his grade yet in our district or I’d be applying for next year)
You know the phrase “don’t bash it till you’ve tried it”?? Not every educational theory is suited for every child, we all know this. Success academy is doing a fantastic job for many kids. Who cares if Eva Moskowitz (sorry if I’m misspelling her name here) is making money off of our kids education, don’t private schools?? If she is succeeding in teaching these kids who cares? The parents want her, the students are learning.
I understand all your arguments. I was on your side of that fence 5 months ago, hell even 2 months ago. Until I started picking up her child and observing classes and learning more. Now… I have to say, it’s NOT a bad thing. It’s even a GOOD thing. Fwiw, I do not believe everything this “mole” says. If they are focusing on nothing but test prep they are doing a damn fine job of hiding it from the kids. When you ask her child what she did in school today. She will say, “we made 3d shapes out of play dough and I made a rhombus prism!” Or “we played with earthworms, mine was named Sally and she had a very large clitellum!” “My reading partner,–, read her book with a silly voice and Mrs— gave her a sticker for being so creative.” “I got a time in today and got to go paint in the art room while the other kids did number stories!!” ##Apparently a time in is the opposite of a time out. The kids get to do something special that they choose and get to get a prize from the treasure box. Not a basketball, either! Small prizes like you’d get from the quarter machines. Little rubber ducks or stretchy creatures etc. I love the idea of a time in.###
So you see, it’s not all what you see and hear in the media or in the acorn rants. On a smaller, individual scale it’s really quite nice.
Maybe what needs to be seen by more of the opposition, is interviews with individual kids or families that attend. You could start with my neighbors child who has a learning disability AND an IEP.
“Who cares if Eva Moskowitz (sorry if I’m misspelling her name here) is making money off of our kids education, don’t private schools?”
Who cares? The taxpayers who pay her exorbitant salary and pay for the operation of her charter schools, that’s who.
Yep, private schools make money. But they do so with their own money, not the public’s.
Your lack of concern over this misuse of taxpayer money appears to arise from selfishness. You got what you want from these publicly funded charter schools, so everybody else can just go pound sand. That about sum it up?
Let’s see… A school that gets money from tax payers and doesn’t charge tuition. A school that accepts EVERYONE within the limits of their capacity. That, to me, sounds like a public school. I know that’s not what your response was about but in reading it, I thought is clear the point. They run their school differently than the traditional “public” that’s the majority of the difference. They can change things -teaching styles, bad teachers, hours etc -immediately without all the red tape. Why is this a bad thing?
There are janitors and admin staff for the doe in nj that make 6 figures+. What do THEY do for their kids? I’m certain it is the same in NYC. I do not care if Eva takes a million dollars to pay herself. She is doing a fantastic job of teaching these kids. Yes the hours probably suck for the teachers and the rules ( discipline-gasp!! God forbid!) are probably difficult for the kids in the beginning. The school is NOT for everyone. It is a CHOICE for the parents. It is a choice to have a better option for THEIR children. A child who might get lost in the public system but who’s family cannot afford private and didn’t make the cut for the G&T. If you cannot see the good she has done for the Harlem kids then you are blind or callous. I pay enough in taxes myself to cover Eva’s salary and all the usual stuff. My child attends a supposedly “good” public school. I could send him anywhere but chose our “wonderful” public as it’s super close and we weren’t impressed with the local privates. There is a HUGE difference in the atmosphere and educational level between 41 and success academy not to mention the respect that their kids show. I WISH I could send my son to Success. He will most likely be in private after this year as 41 has let us down repeatedly and 3 is not structured enough for him.
From everything I’ve seen Success academy is a Great school. Not for everyone but a great school. I could tell you many stories and personal experiences I’ve had with them over the past couple months but somehow I’m certain you wouldn’t care a whit. I say again, like you, I was MAD about this school and ridiculously, fervently against it for all the same reasons. After my neighbor became ill and I started helping her with her child, I have done a complete 180 in my opinions. The first few days I took her to school I was cringing, not wanting to drop her off. I was tempted to keep her out all day with me, but knew her mother would be upset and it would be counter productive to her recovery..
I challenge you to go tour the school yourself or speak with parents whose kids attend. Dont judge without intimate knowledge. How can you possibly? No one can form a true and complete opinion without seeing all sides not just what you hear the fanatics or misinformed scream. It’s simple ignorance and a lack of desire to really search for the truth. It took me being in the school and talking to the teachers and the child etc to change my mind. I’m actually embarrassed by some of my previous urban baby posts and some of the things I had said to my neighbor regarding her choice of schools for her daughter.
We choose who we elect, they make and enforce the rules. They control-yes they do-our public schools, charters included. They can deny any charter put before them. That includes the charters salaries. Eva runs I don’t know how many schools and she runs them WELL. If you broke her income down to a price per school I doubt it would be very high. Not only that. Those Harlem parents whose first graders can read better than their 11th grade sibling, would undoubtedly tell you that they would gladly give you any extra money they had (if they had any) to pay her salary. These kids cannot get a private school education for lack of money. She is giving them the same quality as private and nearly the same as a GT for free. We can yell and kick and scream and spew hatred at each other or we can do something more productive.
They drill and kill test prep mania for baby “scholars” at posh private schools? That’s what Malia and Sasha do all day at Sidwell or the Gates children at lakeside?
Eva Moskowitz’s schools do not accept everyone who applies or everyone within a regional zone. They drum up applicants, hold a lottery, and–wonder of wonders–end up with a small number of students with special needs and few English learners.
Once again, until Eva’s charter accepts EVERY student from the neighborhood without exclusion, Success Academy is not a public school. No one is saying you have no right to send your child there. More power to ya. The argument is how the school should be funded including whether or not SA should pay rent for using publicly funded space. I do not get why it is so difficult to understand the concept that a school that excludes children is not a public school–it is an institution serving an elite portion if the population. Public schools do not, should not, exclude anyone.
Look, any decent teacher can teach the kids who WANT to learn, who have little to no disabilities and whose parents are supportive of their school. It’s the real pros who can provide instruction to those who face obstacles whether with learning disabilities, language barriers, physical handicaps, psychological disorders, at-risk home situations, etc. You might be surprised to know just how many students with disadvantages are educated in public schools while charters are “weeding out” those who bring down their “record of success.” If your public schools are not for you, go where you wish, but don’t rob public schools of the necessary funds the community needs to provide an education to its public.
For many families, charters are the free, legal, and easy way to segregate their children from “all those other kids” who “bring their children down.” This is horrifying. The selfish abandonment of financial responsibility and commitment to one’s own community for personal gain is part and parcel of why there is such a push-back against public funding for charters among many readers of this blog. I cannot believe this conversation is still going when the fundamental public vs. private question remains ignored while you beat Eva’s drum. It’s wonderful that you are finding success there, but for the fiftieth time, there is no justification for calling Success Academy a public school. None. If you stick to the basic argument, and not all the smokescreen cheerleading, you cannot justify public funding for an institution that excludes. Civics 101. You appear to be an intelligent thinker…how are you missing this fundamental concept over and over again? I truly mean no disrespect. I’m baffled at your thinking, frankly.
The 990s for Success Academy are public record and located here, so see for yourself: http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2012/205/298/2012-205298861-095c435d-9.pdf
According to their 2012 tax filings, in 2011, Eva’s salary was $475,244.00 with an additional $12,459.00 in other compensation, totaling $487,703.00. The tax statement also says that was for providing “management and administrative supporting services to nine district charter schools…” Let me repeat, NINE SCHOOLS in 2011.
By comparison, the pay the same year for NYC Schools Chancellor Walcott for managing 1,700 schools was $212,614.00. Let me repeat, ONE THOUSAND AND SEVEN HUNDRED SCHOOLS. Then there is US Secretary of Education Arne Duncan, who oversees the massive federal Department of Education and earns a base salary of $179,700.
Eva’s salary is obscene. Charters want to be called public schools except when it’s more convenient to be labeled private, such as when asking for CEO salaries similar to private corporations, but their revenue is tax dollars –and for schools that pay no rent. If Eva wants a CEO salary similar to private enterprises, she should open up her own privately funded schools, not raid the public coffers.
The salaries for Walcott and Duncan seem bizarrely low, though no doubt Duncan could look forward to a higher salary once out office. I have no doubt that there are many many professors at NYU who are paid much more than the secretary of education and the chancellor.
Actually, it’s university football coaches who make the highest salaries in most states: http://deadspin.com/infographic-is-your-states-highest-paid-employee-a-co-489635228
The salary for the NYC mayor is $225K and the NY state governor’s salary is $179K. Even the president of the United States makes less than Eva, at $400K. The same is true for Harlem Children’s Zones’ Geoffery Canada
This is reprehensible. These are non-profit charter chains serving children in poverty. No one should be expecting to strike it rich making nearly half a million dollars managing tax funded schools for poor children. It’s especially disgusting in this economy, when education budgets have been getting slashed left and right.
Eva has a PhD in history but her schools don’t even teach history, probably because that’s not a tested subject. She can go and teach history at a NY university and try making $500K there. I doubt they would ever pay a history professor anything near that –and I’m sure she already knows this.
History probably not. Law or medicine though and a half million would be possible. You are correct though that football and basketball couches are generally the highest paid at an institution. That is largely because the NCAA does not allow players to be paid their market value (or anything close).
Your post brings up a larger issue. Should we require people who are doing work on behalf of the poor be relatively poorly paid themselves? I recall that Libby Dole was roundly criticized for her $500,000 a year salary as the head of The Red Cross. Restricting salary payments would seem to me to limit the people willing or able to take the job and force people to choose between doing good for the world and doing good for their families.
The median school superintendent salary is $143,572 –and most of those people have certification and K12 teaching experience, since that’s typically required by states. That could hardly be characterized as being paid “relatively poorly” –even the 10th percentile income for professionals in that field. http://www1.salary.com/School-Superintendent-Salary.html
Funny people who promote free markets so often stop short when market rates are not to their advantage.
Your comment brought this TED talk to mind:http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pallotta_the_way_we_think_about_charity_is_dead_wrong.html
I am not sure that last comment. Is it that you think the salary is well above the market rate?
I watched that video before and I still see no justification for paying outrageously high salaries to non-profit “executives”. There are plenty of competent people who would be willing to do those jobs for considerably less. I think this is just CYA for elites from Ivy League colleges who would like to see more arenas where it’s considered acceptable for them to rake in the big bucks. I’m not buying it.
Other people’s salaries are often a mystery.
It’s less of a mystery when you recognize how long the impetus to implement the business model in non-profits has been going on. I experienced it professionally around 2000, when the faith-based non-profit social service agency I worked for brought in a high-payed, cut-throat business CEO who slashed programs for at-risk children, despite the fact that those programs were government funded and typically had waiting lists. The CEO slashed the jobs of teachers who had worked at the agency for three decades and refused to transfer them to other departments, such as mine, when I needed teachers and offered to hire them. The CEO also cut administrators who were specialists in our field and replaced them with people from other departments who had no expertise.
Ultimately, I read the writing on the wall and figured out they planned to close my program, too –and they did so not long after I quit. I found it very disturbing to hear the CEO constantly preaching about our non-profit agency having to make profits and never ever using the word “charity” when speaking with administrators, faculty and staff. Talk about cognitive dissonance!
That’s the same business model that brought us to historic income disparity between CEOs and workers in the trenches and vastly inequitable wealth distribution across our nation, as well as crashing our economy. We don’t need any of that replicated in non-profits.
Below, please find the letter I wrote to Success after being interviewed for a teaching position there (and subsequently rejected, probably because I was demonstrably irritated, shocked, and disgusted by what I experienced from beginning to end).
Dear _____________
Please do not bother keeping my resume active in your system. I found Success Academy’s interviewing style insulting, unprofessional, and above all, troubling in terms of how you go about educating your “scholars.”
To wit:
1. When we all politely replied “Good Morning” to our interviewer, we were asked if we had had enough sleep, indicating she expected a louder, more enthusiastic response. This was a professional interview, not a talk show or a circus. Furthermore, as a teacher, I have always encouraged my students to speak in gentle tones, not to screech, in order to minimize unnecessary noise in my classroom as a means of making the environment more conducive to learning.
2. Your gift of “Success Academy”-branded hand-sanitizer was just bizarre. I don’t even really know how else to put it. If you can’t see why that is a strange token for a school to hand out at job interviews, I doubt I can explain it to you.
3. You never asked permission to video tape us during our interview, but you did.
4. You gave us approximately 10 minutes to prepare for a discussion of a very short poem. Then, when the discussion began, we were asked if we had read the poem. We were then asked if we had read the poem more than once. We were asked if we had read the poem at least 3 times. I have a literature degree from an esteemed university, a Master’s degree, I’m a NYC Teaching Fellow and a professional. You dare to ask me if I prepared for an interview by reading a poem of 25 words’ length at least 3 times when given over 10 minutes to prepare? The answers were yes, yes, and yes. The questions, however, should never have been asked.
5. Our answers during the group discussion were constantly and embarrassingly baited, and then I was told–when I had the presumption to incorporate such common sense approaches to criticism such as authorial intent and contextual analysis–that personal experience should not enter into the discussion of a piece of literature…That at “Success,” students are told what to think, led to one conclusion, and not given room for their individual interpretations, even if they might be based in sound logic. I was told this was to forward their ability to think critically, when all I can imagine is that it hamstrings it completely.
Your copious marketing materials stress how you treat teachers as professionals. If this is so, I did not find it evident in your interviewing process.
Also, you sent me two rejection letters…I never applied for a position entitled “Assistant Director of External Affairs,” as I have no idea what that even entails. All in all, it seems that you have a long way to go before living up to the standards you believe you set for your teachers.
Public charter schools that co-locate already pay rent defacto. They do so by not receiving as much funding as non chartered publics who receive over $20k per kid (16k in operating costs, 4k for pensions), the average public charter school gets $13.5k per kid. All public schools should receive equal funding, it is not fair that charters get less to begin with. However, due to the fact that they do not pay rent, a cost the Independent Budget Office of NY priced at $2,700 a kid, they are already paying, by not getting it. In other words, if they want to charge public charters rent, they have to increase the funding they give them to begin with.
I also find it funny how kids at SA are being ‘bribed’ to score well on tests. Ha, I guess that means the paycheck I receive every two weeks is a bribe for me to work at all.
MS, do SA charter schools teach every student who lives in the area of the school? No? Then it is not a public school.
If you want to talk about equality, how about charters practicing what you preach?
Further, per pupil funding does not belong to the student–it is the basis of a funding formula used to calculate the appropriation of public funds for the public schools that educate the public. That funding belongs to the community, not the individual children in said community.
I am so tired of charter advocates crying that charters are entitled to the misappropriation of the public’s money. Every dollar the charters take from the public schools weaken these institutions, institutions that the public uses. It’s wrong and cannot be justified.
Charters are funded by taxpayer dollars, they do not charge tuition, by definition, that is a public school. You are 100% wrong in stating that a charter is not a public school and it tarnishes any credibility you have in making an argument. The only reason a charter does not teach every kid in an area is because they dont have enough room. They would if the city would allow them to take more space in failing non chartered publics. Why do you think there are 50k kids on wait lists to get into Success? No reason?
Per pupil funding should belong to the family who should be able to use it as they see fit. The system would be much better off if I were given 20k to spend on my kids education anywhere I want. A few countries have systems like this and it works great, Denmark is a great example. That being said, 20k vs 13k is a major difference and unfair, all public deserve the same funding whether they are public charters or public non charters.
Charters are just the beginning of a grand evolution in how we educate for the better, taking control out of the hands of unions and bureaucrats and giving it to parents to make informed decisions about what is best for their kids.
Of course this scares the bejesus out of the establishment and they will do anything in their power to stop them from losing their control. This is why you see this complete hypocracy of charging rent and attempts to shut down public charters by bureaucrats who have had to rely on union support for electoral purposes.
“Charters are funded by taxpayer dollars, they do not charge tuition, by definition, that is a public school.”
Public schools have three basic criteria: They are publically funded, they are run by a publicly elected school board, and they openly serve every child in the public. If a charter school does not take EVERY child, it is not a public school. And if there is NO DIRECT PUBLIC OVERSIGHT, it is not a public school. So…care to redefine charters, now?
“You are 100% wrong in stating that a charter is not a public school and it tarnishes any credibility you have in making an argument.”
I’m not concerned about my “credibility” with you. Any policy-maker can enact a law stating whatever he or she wants it to say, but charters DO NOT SERVE THE PUBLIC–only public schools do.
“The only reason a charter does not teach every kid in an area is because they dont have enough room. They would if the city would allow them to take more space in failing non chartered publics. Why do you think there are 50k kids on wait lists to get into Success? No reason?”
What BS. Charter schools cannot be “successes” with children who bring the “success” average down, i.e. students who are particularly challenging to educate such as special learners or ELL students. Public schools must take everyone. Charters NOTORIOUSLY do not, nor are they required to do so.
“Per pupil funding should belong to the family who should be able to use it as they see fit.”
Public schools are community buildings. The facilities belong to the community because the community pays for the building and the operation of such. Case in point: My community’s schools house after-hours and weekend groups such as scouts, churches, and travel sports teams that are not necessarily affiliated with the students who attend school in those particular buildings. Our schools are also polling locations. By taking the funding from these facilities and letting it travel with a portion if the taxpayer base (that is, those who happen to have school-aged children), operating costs for these community facilities are under-funded. If you believe that per-pupil funding belongs to your family, try educating your child only on your tax contribution instead of an equal portion of the taxes of the entire community population. If you have more than one child, you probably wouldn’t be able to afford it.
Currently, I do not have school-aged children, yet I have an obligation to provide funding for the education of my community’s children. Where is MY choice of how MY tax contributions will be utilized? Well, I surrender that choice to the school board for which I vote. MY contribution is more mine than it is yours, children or not, yet I make it because that is my investment into my community. I understand the importance of a strong and educated community with opportunities for all children. After all, they are the future caretakers of this community, and I invest in this community by investing in the schools that provide society with an opportunity to shape future citizens.
I am tired of the misrepresentation of the argument by those who think they are the only ones with a vested interest in the future of their communities because they have children. Who do you think you are to take MY contribution for YOUR personal preferences? Do you drive on the roads in your community? Do you think that they only belong to drivers?
“The system would be much better off if I were given 20k to spend on my kids education anywhere I want.”
Pretty selfish of you to appropriate money that does not belong to you for your wants, don’t you think?
“A few countries have systems like this and it works great, Denmark is a great example.”
Denmark isn’t exactly the most shining example of community education, but I don’t see an issue with your moving there.
LG,
You are right. Charter schools are not public schools. They are schools run by private corporations under contract to the government. That is what charters say whenever they are in federal court or before the NLRB. When two charter founders were convicted of misappropriating $200,000 recently in Los Angeles, the California Charter School Association entered an amicus brief insisting that the pair were not subject to the same laws as public employees because charters are not public schools.
Of course, but people will still make arguments about terminology as they see fit. The bottom line is that public funding–and by extension, the public institution–belongs to the public, not just to one special interest group within the public. The funding, and the institution, is the responsibility of the public.
As well, I find the fallacy that “unions run the schools” tiresome. I wish those who’ve drunk the corporate reform kool-aid would stop trying to bring everyone else down with them. It’s amazing that this poster, who sounds like someone passionate enough to support a greater cause, actually believes this drivel Instead, the “devil” has once again preyed upon human hubris.
If a charter school does not take EVERY child, it is not a public school. And if there is NO DIRECT PUBLIC OVERSIGHT, it is not a public school. So…care to redefine charters, now?
Interesting, ok, lets follow your failed logic….so how bout all those public non charter schools that dont accept every child in their area like every single HS in the system?! I guess this means that fancy public high school that our new mayor sends his kid to is not a public school given it doesnt “openly serve every child in the public”. Stuyvesant, Bronx Science, you name it, based on your concept of what a public school is, they dont meet it. Care to amend your incorrect criteria? The truth is, a public school by definition is one that is run with government funds, thats it. CHarter schools are public schools and your psudo-definition has no credibility.
If you believe that per-pupil funding belongs to your family, try educating your child only on your tax contribution instead of an equal portion of the taxes of the entire community population.
The DoE sets out a budget, not your local school board (you were wrong about that as well, more fallacies on your behalf) and it works on a per student basis, when a child leaves one school, their budget will decrease by X amount. We pulled our kid out of the zoned public for the chartered public by us and the zoned school lost money. This is their own fault, if they could successfully compete with another public option, that option spends 35% less money to get multiple times better results, ever stop and wonder why?
Pretty selfish of you to appropriate money that does not belong to you for your wants, don’t you think?
Pretty sad to see folks who believe special interests and bureaucrats have more well intended desires then childrens own parents. I guess I prefer making decisions on what is best for my kids instead of a union.
Denmark isn’t exactly the most shining example of community education, but I don’t see an issue with your moving there.
Ahh, the old ad hominem attack, dont like it, move out?! How bout I stay, and fight for real change, you know, the basic concept of democracy. It seems you are the one who opposes these basic principles by opposing a truly groundbreaking change for the better setting foot in this city, all to support the failed objectives of the established power.
I am tired of the misrepresentation of the argument by those who think they are the only ones with a vested interest in the future of their communities because they have children.
You have not been misrepresented at all. You have made some blatantly incorrect statements and shown a ‘communal’ view that lacks any progressiveness. I notice you have failed to answer any of the questions I have posted. I guess I have to ask them again.
1. Why are there 50,000 NY children on wait lists for Success Academy?
2. Why should public schools not all be equally funded?
3. How do you justify charging rent to a charter school that already pays it by receiving so much less funding?
As for charter schools being public, how about the US Governments definition as one to work off of?!
http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=30
A public charter school is a publicly funded school that is typically governed by a group or organization under a legislative contract or charter with the state or jurisdiction. The charter exempts the school from selected state or local rules and regulations. In return for funding and autonomy, the charter school must meet the accountability standards articulated in its charter. A school’s charter is reviewed periodically (typically every 3 to 5 years) by the group or jurisdiction that granted its charter and can be revoked if guidelines on curriculum and management are not followed or if the standards are not met (U.S. Department of Education 2000).
As you can see, our own federal government defines them as public. They also must meet accountability standards set forth in their charter that is……………….you guessed it…………approved by a governmental body. I guess they do have some oversight given their charters need to be reviewed or revoked as well.
The sad truth for those who oppose Success Academy is that it is clearly a Public School and deserves equal funding which would be an increase of some 6k per student per year!
The definition you have presented here of what is public is rife with inaccuracies. You have been schooled several times over about what constitutes a public school, yet you refuse to see it. Civics 101.
Until you can say that charters do not operate under the umbrella of profits, they are not public schools. Until you can say that the public directly elects boards that oversee the operations of charters, they are not public schools. Government charters do not have the same regulations nor requirements to serve the public as public schools do. Public funding belongs to the public, not to special interests with CEOs and appointed board members who game the system touting “success.” How do you reconcile the idea that charters can keep the per-pupil funding they rape from public schools even after they’ve “counseled out” the “underachievers” and sent them back to their public schools? I cannot understand how you cannot see the hypocrisy in that.
Since you have your own brand of “public funding justice,” I have a few questions for you:
What share of your tax money should go to my use of the roads, parks, and other community systems?
Should your money go to me if I choose not to drive on our community roads? I mean, after all, it is MY choice where I drive, so that money should go to me to use the roads that I want to use, right?
Do you believe I should not pay anything at all into your child’s schooling since I have no school-aged children at this time?
Where would you, your contemporaries, and your community be without the public funding that was provided to run your community schools back when you were a child?
Do you think you’re entitled to have your children served by the tax base the way you want it but not the way that the taxpayers do?
I prefer my tax money going to educate ALL the children, not just yours. If you continue to support the argument that charters are public schools, then apparently you don’t believe your share of living in the community (as well as mine) should go toward other people’s children (problems)–it should only go to you. Prove me wrong, if you care about your “credibility” in this argument.
For the record, unions do not run schools, but you seem to think you are an authority on what unions do so I won’t waste my time trying to explain how things actually do work within the union structure. Your stance is based in political rhetoric that supports the misguided notion that unions are bad for schools, and parents are the only people who should have a say in what happens to community schools. This is common corporate reform schlock, and you have fallen victim to it. Wouldn’t you rather educate yourself on public issues instead of getting all your “information” from a corporate education business?
**Until you can say that charters do not operate under the umbrella of profits, they are not public schools.**
Charters are non for profit by law, they must incorporate as a 501(c) nonprofit organization under IRS regulations. This means they can not have things like profits or shareholders by law. This also means, they can be a public school. You have it wrong……..again.
***Until you can say that the public directly elects boards that oversee the operations of charters, they are not public schools.**
The public does not directly elect the school board that oversees the operations of zoned schools, therefore using your logic zoned public schools are not public schools either. The BoE is appointed by the Mayor not the electorate. A public school does not require elected officials to run them, the officials who run zoned non chartered public schools are not elected. You have it wrong………..again.
**Government charters do not have the same regulations nor requirements to serve the public as public schools do.**
It seems you are getting confused in your own pretzel logic now, earlier you said that they have ‘no direct public oversight’, now you are admitting they have ‘Government regulations’ only in a different format. So which one is it? It seems you have a myriad of views that change with each post. Once again, you have it wrong. Maybe you can clarify your indecision on this clear inconsistency in your view. Well, if you care to be credible that is.
**even after they’ve “counseled out” the “underachievers” and sent them back to their public schools? I cannot understand how you cannot see the hypocrisy in that.**
I think the theory of posssible ‘counseling out’ is a valid problem if it exists, yet I do not see it in practice and see no proof it is happening. In the cases in which its been documented the best move for the student was to leave SA and go to the local zoned school which in fact had better facilities and funding for the students particular needs. In fact, in the case the DN sited, the child in question has performed excellently at the zoned school with the better special needs program, showing the SA view was the correct one. It is abundantly clear in the ‘secret tapes’ that the administrators at SA were acting in the best interests of the student in that case. The irony here is that Success Academy had to cut the number of ELL seats from their lottery process due to a federal court ruling at the behest of the US DoE. You want to have your cake and eat it too, you demand that SA teach all students then support their funding being cut from ELL services.
**Since you have your own brand of “public funding justice,” I have a few questions for you:**
I’m sorry but it would be rather rude of you to ask questions before answering those already asked of you, something I am patiently waiting for you to do. It would be unfair of me to answer any questions you may have until we work thru the questions I’ve already asked you. So as soon as you can answer my questions I would be happy to move onto yours. I shall ask for a third time.
1. Why are there 50,000 NY children on wait lists for Success Academy?
2. Why should public schools not all be equally funded?
3. How do you justify charging rent to a charter school that already pays it by receiving so much less funding?
I look forward to your answers.
**For the record, unions do not run schools, but you seem to think you are an authority on what unions do so I won’t waste my time trying to explain how things actually do work within the union structure.**
Unions effectively run schools by committee in conjunction with the Board of Ed and on an individual school level the Superintendents by collectively bargaining workplace rules for their members. When a Union says a teacher can not work past X number of hours a week or be fired for stalking, they are directly effecting the regular activities of the school. When a Union says that its members must receive a fully funded pension as opposed to a 401k system and all but free healthcare taking much needed tax dollars away from the operational side of a school, they are having a direct influence on how a school can be run.
For the record, I strongly support unions in the private sector, they are needed to protect labors share of a profit pool. The problem is in the public sector that profit isn’t a profit at all, its tax dollars being mismanaged by the overwhelming power of the union and its bought off politicians. I fully support collective bargaining in the private sector, more power to them, they make the profit, they deserve to share it. In the public sector the unions only hold the population hostage. The problem with unions in the public schools is that they wall in teachers and administrators from thinking and acting outside the box and coming up with progressive ways to improve schools. I am sure you are not aware of this, but it was the teachers union who invented the charter system in NY as a way to come up with new ways to teach and get past all of the overregulation they crated. Of course once it actually started working and the union lost control of it, they went on the attack. More irony isn’t it, or as I call it, a double standard.
MS spouted much sophistry and errant nonsense when posting “Charters are non for profit by law, they must incorporate as a 501(c) nonprofit organization under IRS regulations. This means they can not have things like profits or shareholders by law. This also means, they can be a public school. You have it wrong……..again.”
If you think that there is anything stopping a non-profit corporation from turning over taxpayer dollars to the for-profit corporations who actually run the charter school, then you are either much more uninformed than you pretend to be or you are being willfully obtuse.
Please, before responding, follow this link and read about just ONE such for-profit corporation.
http://stateimpact.npr.org/ohio/2013/07/26/decision-in-white-hat-case-could-force-charter-school-companies-to-open-books/
Here’s an excerpt:
“White Hat and other for-profit charter school companies have to include general information about their spending in annual audits. That information includes total spending by category such as personnel or supplies. But unlike traditional public schools, for-profit charter school operators aren’t required to disclose details about what public money was spent on or to whom it was paid–and most do not.
White Hat has maintained that since it is a private company, it does not need to disclose how that money is spent – not even to members of the schools’ boards.”
Kevin, why should facts and precedent get in the way of MS’s version of reality?
Was White Hat receiving money from 501(c) non for profit organizations in Ohio? If so which 501c non profits did it receive money from?
“1. Why are there 50,000 NY children on wait lists for Success Academy?”
Where are these stats? It these are true figures, perhaps SA has good PR? Public schools do not have wait lists. They take EVERYBODY. They also do not close their buildings for a day while using their students as political pawns in a propaganda game by asking them to march across a bridge to support them. That is unprofessional.
“2. Why should public schools not all be equally funded?”
Are you assuming again that SA is a public school? See, you haven’t proved that it is–therefore your question is irrelevant.
“3. How do you justify charging rent to a charter school that already pays it by receiving so much less funding?”
I justify it because–and let’s say it again–CHARTERS ARE NOT PUBLIC SCHOOLS.
The last two questions prove nothing since they are built on a false premise that charters are public schools…and around we go again.
“Unions effectively run schools by committee in conjunction with the Board of Ed and on an individual school level the Superintendents by collectively bargaining workplace rules for their members.”
Stop right there. Collective bargaining units do not dictate the management of schools–they negotiate management of employees by employers. Schools are run by management. Contracts reflect the wants and concessions OF BOTH SIDES. Management gets what it wants, too, you better believe it, but of course that doesn’t support your “the union is the Big Bad Wolf” theory, so why should you believe it?
“When a Union says a teacher can not work past X number of hours a week…”
You are insinuating that there ought to be no rules about how long a school day is. I’ve never heard of anything more stupid, but then again, you are still arguing your ridiculous points, so I’m not surprised.
“…or be fired for stalking,…”
Seriously? Stalking? Paranoid much?
“…they are directly effecting the regular activities of the school.”
Let me see if I get your “thinking”…unions are the people who make decisions about the “regular activities of the school” and management has NO say? I see…you think the unions tie up management’s hands and force them at gunpoint to have actual parameters as to the number of hours employees work? WHAT CRAZINESS IS THIS, actually having set hours to begin and end a workday? Why, it’s madness to think that any worker in the U.S. should actually have set hours! The nerve of some people!
“When a Union says that its members must receive a fully funded pension as opposed to a 401k system and all but free healthcare taking much needed tax dollars away from the operational side of a school, they are having a direct influence on how a school can be run.”
::sigh:: Pensions are partially funded by the contributions of the employees who actually have already earned that money but choose to give it to the pension fund INSTEAD OF ENJOYING IT NOW and in return, the state pays back that contribution with interest down the road. So you can look at it like the members are loaning their hard-earned cash to the state to use now–it’s an investment in the state fund. (Isn’t that nice of them to loan their earnings?) It’s called a deferred payment–the employee never sees that money until he agrees to stop working and to stop collecting his regular pay. In regard to your 401K “solution,” requiring people to make investments in a market that “may or may not” bring a return on their hard-earned wages is like playing roulette with their finances. If you want to play games with your earnings, go right ahead, but don’t expect an entire workforce to want to gamble. Pensions are between the state and the employee–they have nothing to do with “how schools are run.”
“For the record, I strongly support unions in the private sector, they are needed to protect labors share of a profit pool. The problem is in the public sector that profit isn’t a profit at all, its tax dollars being mismanaged by the overwhelming power of the union and its bought off politicians.”
Wrong, again. Tax dollars do not go to unions. That is a fallacy touted by those with an anti-union political agenda. Unions are supported through member dues that are often conveniently deducted from pay. Your logic is like saying that tax dollars pay union members’ electric bills because members pay for electricity with the money they earned working a union contract. These connections are ridiculous.
It doesn’t surprise me that you feel protections of profits are more important than protections of workers given your misguided notions about and your disdain for public sector unions. Public jobs are not and never should be contingent on profits, and profit-sharing HAS NO BUSINESS IN EDUCATION. Children are not commodities, and their teachers are not profit-pawns.
“I fully support collective bargaining in the private sector, more power to them, they make the profit, they deserve to share it.”
Again, you place money over people. Says a lot about your integrity in this argument.
“In the public sector the unions only hold the population hostage.”
Misguided opinion.
“The problem with unions in the public schools is that they wall in teachers and administrators from thinking and acting outside the box and coming up with progressive ways to improve schools.”
If you peruse any state union website, you’d see community outreach programs, professional development opportunities, and the support for improving both educators and schools, but why would you even think to look for these positive contributions? It’s so much EASIER to listen to anti-union hate speech and worship profits than to actually educate yourself, right?
“I am sure you are not aware of this, but it was the teachers union who invented the charter system in NY as a way to come up with new ways to teach and get past all of the overregulation they crated.”
I am sure I am ABSOLUTELY AWARE of Al Shankar’s proposal for alternative institutions that served the needs of the public, but what you obviously are not aware of is the fact that the charter concept was one that allowed the charters to work WITH the public school system as an off-shoot of the public system and not a separate entity-competitor. Please, PLEASE stop insinuating what I know and do not know. You are making a fool of yourself.
“Of course once it actually started working and the union lost control of it, they went on the attack. More irony isn’t it, or as I call it, a double standard.”
I call it rhetoric–that is, all of your BS about ” how it all went down.”
Now, care to answer my questions or are you going to keep dodging the issue by repeating fallacies about charters and unions? I don’t expect you’ll have any answers that show any level of civic-mindedness. It’s clear that you value profits over people, all the more reason why charters are attractive to you.
** Public schools do not have wait lists. They take EVERYBODY. They also do not close their buildings for a day while using their students as political pawns in a propaganda game by asking them to march across a bridge to support them. That is unprofessional.**
Success Academy did not close its doors the day of the protest they had a half day, starting at noon. The average SA week is 4 hours longer then zoned schools so the 4 hours they missed expressing their constitutional rights is hardly going to hurt their educational growth. It is interesting how the anti charter movement is so opposed to SA teaching their scholars about their 1st amendment rights isn’t it. I cant imagine a better course in the American experiment then allowing children to participate in a rally for their school. And yes, they were not mandated to go despite what your bias reports tell you. We have a child in SA and took part in the rally yet were not forced and know of dozens of families in our SA who did not take part nor were forced or punished for it. What you call unprofessional I call a phenomenal act of education and leadership. Public schools also do not take everybody. If that were the case they why do 10,000 children take the test to get into Stuyvesant yet only 150 are given seats? I guess Stuy, much like almost every other respectable HS in the NYC system is not in fact public.
**Are you assuming again that SA is a public school? See, you haven’t proved that it is–therefore your question is irrelevant.**
You are avoiding the question as you know it makes your entire argument moot. We have already dispelled all of your false arguments against non-profit charters being public schools. They are regulated, operated on public property and funded by public tax dollars and cannot charge a tuition fee by law. At what point will you accept the fact that you are wrong and charters like Success Academy are public. I have decisively proven you wrong on this.
**I justify it because–and let’s say it again–CHARTERS ARE NOT PUBLIC SCHOOLS.**
You can scream and shout a lie all day louder and louder, but it doenst make it true. You are simply wrong, Charter schools like Success Academy are in fact public schools.
**Schools are run by management. Contracts reflect the wants and concessions OF BOTH SIDES. Management gets what it wants, too, you better believe it, but of course that doesn’t support your “the union is the Big Bad Wolf” theory, so why should you believe it?**
You do not seem to be aware of the fact that the DoE is picked by the mayor. If a Mayor is a union crony and installs pro union DoE members, it’s the union negotiating with the union. We had this in NYCs past, a rather harsh time known as the 1970s, you saw how that ended!. Bloomberg did a great job, he saw the deal the unions demanded was catastrophic for the city and refused to deal with them and he was right. Now the union has its boy in power who can populate the DoE with lackeys who will give them what they want, but sure, keep believing that the school system cant be controlled by unions.
**Seriously? Stalking? Paranoid much?**
No, not paranoid, it’s a fact as you can read here:
http://nypost.com/2013/02/24/creep-teach-keeps-his-job/
Turns out tenured teachers cant get wacked for stalking. Nice work if you can get it!!!
**you think the unions tie up management’s hands and force them at gunpoint to have actual parameters as to the number of hours employees work? **
Yes that is 100% correct. The DoE is picked by a Mayor, a Mayor is elected with the help of special interests, in the case of deblasio, the teachers union. This is what made Bloomberg such a special and successful mayor, he could not be bought off.
A principle at a zoned school can not set work hours beyond X due to a contractual obligation the Union and DoE have agreed upon. This ties up managements hands and forces them to restrict the possibilities of what could be done. At Charters, this is not a problem because the nonsense of union contracts are not a concern. Well that is, unless you are a union charter, lets see what happens when unions weasel their way into public charter schools:
http://nypost.com/2013/11/19/williamsburg-charter-school-closing-over-contract-impasse/
**pensions are partially funded by the contributions of the employees who actually have already earned that money but choose to give it to the pension fund INSTEAD OF ENJOYING IT NOW and in return, the state pays back that contribution with interest down the road.
Partially? With Interest? Are you kidding? Teachers put in 3% of their income tax deferred yet receive returns over 10fold that. With the assumptions that the pensions guarantee, they make the actual return untenable. Its funny you talk about trusting your pension to the ‘market’, Clearly you do not realize that the Asset Manager that handles the teachers pensions invests that money into the market. Take a look at what TIAA-Cref does as a business, or NYS Teachers Funds. We are all at the whims of the market, one that traditionally goes up. What is worse, is that union pensions are fully guaranteed by the government. That is outrageous, that a teacher can retire on 80% of their last 3yrs pay (of which they get in all that OT to bump up their ‘salary’) and if the market tanks the greater public gets the check. Yeah, between the state and worker. We call that heads you win tails I lose.
**. Tax dollars do not go to unions. That is a fallacy touted by those with an anti-union political agenda.
They go to union employees in unaffordable healthcare and pension schemes that are bankrupting cities and towns nationwide. It is basically a Ponzi scheme that demographics is ruining for the union party. The fact is, we cannot afford as a society public pensions and the guaranteed returns they are assigned. Public union employees need to wake up and smell the coffee, the rest of the workforce already has.
**. Children are not commodities, and their teachers are not profit-pawns.
You and the unions you support treat kids as such. This is why you oppose free thinking charter schools like success that are not restricted by union contracts that not only break our treasuries but stop our kids from experiencing truly progressive learning formats without paying tuition to fancy prep schools. You do not practice what you preach.
**but what you obviously are not aware of is the fact that the charter concept was one that allowed the charters to work WITH the public school system as an off-shoot of the public system and not a separate entity-competitor. Please, PLEASE stop insinuating what I know and do not know. You are making a fool of yourself.**
Charter schools are public schools, they cannot be competition to themselves. They are not an offshoot of the public system, they ARE the public system. This is why you are so dismally confused and unadjusted in your failed ideological view. The sad fact is you oppose CHOICE for parents. I support Choice. I think it would be great to have 10 charters as well as my own zoned school to pick from in my location. I will do the research and decide what is best for my kid. You do not like this, you want the government to tell me what is best and force me to only have one option, then watch as it gets destroyed by mismanagement by special interests .
** I don’t expect you’ll have any answers that show any level of civic-mindedness. It’s clear that you value profits over people, all the more reason why charters are attractive to you.
If I valued profits over people I would oppose unions in the private workplace. You cant even get my view correctly. I get it, this is how people out of the know debate, they make up the view they want to argue against instead of the one that they are actually against. I fully support unions when profits are at stake.
As for your questions, unfortunately you have not answered mine. I will ask them for a 4th time as you did not make any attempt to actually answer them but to ask more questions or avoid the truth of the matter, which is that charters are public schools. Here we go, this is your last chance:
1. Why are there 50,000 NY children on wait lists for Success Academy?
2. Why should public schools not all be equally funded?
3. How do you justify charging rent to a charter school that already pays it by receiving so much less funding?
I look forward to your answers.
1. No one knows how many children are on wait lists. No audits. Many are on multiple wait lists, same kids. Many are there because of hundreds of thousands spent on marketing.
2. Charter schools are not public schools. That is what they say in courts and before NLRB. They are private schools that have a government contract. So they say.
3. Studies by the NYC Independent Budget Office say that charter schools get more money than public schools, plus they have very wealthy patrons on their board to subsidize additional funding. Harlem Success Academy and KIPP spend far more than public schools.
You have established nothing, whether as yourself or the “Royal We” to which you refer. I am done commenting. You lack the reading comprehension skills to understand any of what has been laid out for you. Couple that with the fact that you exhibit ZERO civic-mindedness, and I’d say that this dialogue is pretty useless.
Hope you enjoy getting what YOU want, all others be damned. The selfish position you maintain affects our communities, and as long as I’m living I will fight that attitude as I choose to advocate for ALL children. You’re hopeless, but feel free to keep ranting if it makes you feel better.
Thank you for answering Diane. I will go quiet on question 1 as you are correct, no one knows for sure, but the fact is, countless thousand’s are on SA’s wait lists. But lets focus on your two answers to the other questions as I think you make some critical mistakes.
***2. Charter schools are not public schools. That is what they say in courts and before NLRB. They are private schools that have a government contract. So they say.***
You are talking about two charter schools in LA and using what they say in an amicus brief as what you think all charter schools say? Dont you think that is an unfair assumption, to use a broad sweeping judgment over the 5,000+ charter schools nationwide? Talk about painting with a broad brush!
The truth is Charter schools like Success Academy are public schools for the following reasons:
a. They are funded by public funds allocated by the State. b. They cannot charge tuition by law. c. They must organize via a charter that is approved by a state governmental body that is in charge of regulating the school. The argument that they can pick and choose who to let in is bunk as public High Schools in the city do the same thing, based on standards no less, test scores. Charters pick at random.
The only difference between a public charter and a public zoned school is who is in control of the management and organization of labor running the schools. This does not disqualify charter from being public schools. What it does do is make charters a lightning bolt for attacks as they are not unionized. That is what this debate is really about, the establishment losing control.
***3. Studies by the NYC Independent Budget Office say that charter schools get more money than public schools, plus they have very wealthy patrons on their board to subsidize additional funding. Harlem Success Academy and KIPP spend far more than public schools.**
The study you speak of says that charters like SA receive equal funding as zoned schools ONLY after you add in the cost of rent that charters do not pay as a subsidy and subtract out the cost of pensions that the zoned schools pay (along with many other inaccurate accounting techniques by the IBO). Both assumptions are absurd. The BoE released a very critical letter showing how incorrect the mathematical assumptions the IBO used and chastising them for such poor work. Why should pension costs not be listed with per pupil funding for zoned publics? Is that $4,000 magic money that doesn’t deserve accounting for? It grows on trees?
But lets get to this math and use the IBO’s data. They claim that charters like SA that are co-located get roughly $13,500 in public funding and another $2,700 is added to their funding by the money they save from not paying rent that gets them to the $16k+ amount that is equal to zoned publics. This means that the IBO considers charters to be paying rent in the form of a subsidy! So, it brings us back to the original question. How can a charter be asked to pay rent when it already is?
The mayors proposal to charge SA rent means he wishes to unfairly penalize one public school over another unfairly. If he wants to charge them $2700 in rent they should receive an additional $2700 to cover the rent cost from the State.
As for SA being so well funded, that is true, they have been so successful that they have raised a lot of funds. So the question is why don’t zoned publics raise that much? There is no law stopping zoned public s from raising funds, in fact many of them do. Some raise as much if not more than SA. Check out the numbers school PTAs at PS321, 29 or 58 in Brooklyn are putting up. 29 raises $1,000,000.00 a year via its PTA. So why doesn’t the mayor want to charge them rent? They can afford it right? This is the double standard this rent ploy runs into. If you want to charge one rich public school you should charge all rich public schools….
Public schools do not have wait lists???? Ok.. Then I, and many others in my school zone were the butt of some kind of awful joke! My child was on not 1 but 2 wait lists for our zoned “public schools” no-not charter schools either, regular DoE schools. You must not live in NYC. They do not take EVERYONE either.
Seriously.
The last gasp of nonsense from the Bloomberg administration was to create an application and waiting lists for kindergarten! Hopefully, the new chancellor will stop this.
“The last gasp of nonsense from the Bloomberg administration was to create an application and waiting lists for kindergarten! Hopefully, the new chancellor will stop this.”
So Bloomberg made a mess of public schools, yet people are being led to believe that all public schools are run like the ones he ruined in NYC. No wonder some charters have rabid fans. Anonymous (or MS), you have every right to be angry with the notion of wait lists in public schools. Public schools are meant to have all doors open to every community child, a fact that many proponents of charters and private schools do not like.
“The public does not directly elect the school board that oversees the operations of zoned schools, therefore using your logic zoned public schools are not public schools either. The BoE is appointed by the Mayor not the electorate. A public school does not require elected officials to run them, the officials who run zoned non chartered public schools are not elected. ”
All snark aside, you do have a point here. Mayoral control and politically appointed board members are a huge part of what’s wrong with your zoned school system. TRUE public schools are run by an elected board chosen by the voters that is advised by seasoned education professionals in administration. Bloomberg has set city public schools on a path of their own destruction. This, hopefully, will be corrected under the new mayor. Supporting a dual system of both public schools that take everyone and charter schools that limit enrollment is not a solution. Public funding should stay with the public.
You still have it wrong. Public schools are NOT run by an elected board chosen by voters, there are no elections for the Board of Education. The Mayor picks whoever he wants to run the board and the borough presidents choose the rest of the members. You need to be more educated on these facts before posting such glaring inaccuracies.
As for the greater point, Bloomberg has been a savior of the public system, we would have moved to the suburbs long ago if not for the charter we are in and I can say that from experience as we left our zoned school for it. What Bloomberg has done is groundbreaking and all but an absolute revolution in how school systems should be run, for once we have real choice, not governmental control of our options and its been an unfettered success in the case of Success Academy, they are the best schools in the state, and not just public but private too, their results are mind boggling and prove that socio-economics is nothing in the face of a superior teaching method. The fact that they are eating the establishments lunch is fantastic.
What is really amazing, is seeing someone who preaches a rich vs poor motto attack the poorest of the poor who are finally getting a chance to make it in life via schools like SA. Its not like they are all white rich preppy schools in fancy hoods, they are in the ghettos and getting results. What sort of judgement does a person like deblaiso have when he sees how spectacular SA has been and think it should be shut down?
“You still have it wrong. Public schools are NOT run by an elected board chosen by voters, there are no elections for the Board of Education. The Mayor picks whoever he wants to run the board and the borough presidents choose the rest of the members. You need to be more educated on these facts before posting such glaring inaccuracies.”
I encourage you to take break from “cheerleading for Bloomberg” and actually read my above comment. What Bloomberg does (along with other politicians in some urban areas) is keep the voice of the voter out of the public schools. This is not the norm in America, nor is it a tenet of a true public school system to politically “appoint” a board. It is not representational of the true will of the people. If you actually understood what constitutes a public education institution, you would see that NYC schools do not fit the true public mold. Basically, you are framing all public schools based on the model that Bloomberg has set up while blatantly disregarding the majority of public schools in America that are run by local elected school boards chosen by the public.
If you could just take a moment to see the big picture, you would notice that your definition of “public” is extremely narrow and conveniently self-serving of charters, institutions that do not serve the public.
You’ve consistently ignored my questions in terms of what you believe a citizen’s obligation to society is and instead continue framing the argument from, again, a very narrow view.
You’ve ignored taking ownership of the idiocy of a statement that ridicules an employee’s right to actually have an agreed-upon set of working hours with his employer as if setting hours is wrong, forget that in just about every other job, hours are dictated whether in terms of time (on salary) or payment per hour.
You have not addressed what is fair for the rest of the children who do not get into charters while you advocate for funding to be taken away from the public’s buildings for the personal use of those very few who have abandoned their neighborhood schools for charters.
You, citizen, have an obligation to the children in your community, but it is conveniently left out of your argument over and over. As well, you, citizen, have an obligation to help improve the community’s public institutions whether that means you support the reinstatement of local boards, smaller class sizes or wrap-around services for the community’s children. Our children are the obligation of ALL of us. Advocating for all of them is what citizens do in this civil society.
I’m sorry the politicians have wounded your system, but rather than abandon it so it completely dies, why not be part of the solution and demand better care of your schools for the benefit if all? The unions notoriously advocate to preserve and improve these institutions. Why not look into how you can help them instead of working against them? If you do not feel this obligation to better society because you place profits over people, you are a taker in this society instead of a giver/taker.
I believe this conversation has gone as far as it could go. Therefore, I feel it pointless to continue until you’ve addressed the obligations of citizenry.
You have been quite spirited, and I wish you all the success in the world getting what you want.