I was interviewed by Steve Inskeep of NPR Morning Edition. It airs today. It may be the best 5-minute summary of “Reign of Error.”
A note to my friends who teach and use educational technology. Contrary to the introduction, I do not oppose technology. I support technology as a tool for teachers, not a replacement for teachers. I know, from direct personal experience, that there are people in board rooms and think tanks who yearn for the day when technology will make it possible to cut costs by having children “taught ” by someone who is in a distant locale, with the added bonus of eliminating teachers’ unions.
Diane Ravitch's blog 
Diane, YOU are the hero. I totally admire you. I am a retired veteran teacher. I taught for almost 40 years. I still volunteer and want a second career as a literacy consultant and am working toward that. I am staying involved because I have seen so many changes. Thank you for all you do.
Given the (appropriate and warranted) attention given to the issue of segregation in “Reign” and on your blog recently, I was pretty disappointed to read this response:
“Some [traditional district schools] are bad, but the reason we call them bad is because they’re serving disproportionate numbers of children with disabilities, because the charter schools don’t want them. They have disproportionate numbers of children who don’t read or speak English because they’re foreign-born, and the charter schools don’t want them either. So, we’re getting the public schools overloaded with low-performing children and then calling them failing schools. And that’s wrong.”
Most high-performing traditional districts don’t want and aren’t educating their fair share of poor, minority, foreign-born, and/or non-English-speaking students, either. Residential segregation is far more responsible for the warehousing of these populations into “failing” schools than charter schools are.
“Residential segregation is far more responsible for the warehousing of these populations into “failing” schools than charter schools are.”
Actually, that’s inaccurate, Tim. WITHIN that “residentially segregated zone” is a bifurcation created by charter “schools” that didn’t exist before charters.
Before charters, virtually all children enrolled in a public school attended the one located in their neighborhood. Like many people, I went to such a school, albeit in a white working class neighborhood, and in every one of my K-8 classes, my fellow students represented the full range of academic abilities.
In any given grade, there were students like Susan P. or David B. who, it seemed, were absolutely incapable of giving a wrong answer to a question in any subject area. Their homework was flawless and frequently used by the teacher as an example for the rest of us. Their book reports—even back in the sixties—looked like official corporate presentations.
And, in every one of those classes there were students like Bruce D. and Barbara V. who never once seemed to have the right answer and would rarely if ever complete last night’s homework assignment.
Five of my grade school classmates ended up at Ivy League colleges or the equivalent. And, looking back, they seemed destined for that by the time we were all in third grade. (However, I also ended up at an elite college and graduate school, despite my erratic academic performance, year in and year out, fluctuating between the occasional highest grade on the exam to near the bottom, usually due to whatever my fragile emotional state was at any given time.)
Here’s the bottom line—and yet one more reason why charters are a poison that contaminates the entire concept of a free, universal public school system, open and available to all, regardless of family income, social status or innate or acquired abilities.
If there were charters when and where I grew up, Susan P. and David B. and the other very capable students would have never been in my class—or even my school. I would have undoubtedly been “left behind” in the public—a.k.a. “dumb school” once the charter for the “smart” kids had come along—school, now the repository for the kids with low scores and little hope. (And what teacher would want to have their “effectiveness” measured with THESE “losers”?)
As long as you have charters, segregation by race, ethnicity, parental income and education, and language ability is ineluctable; and as long as charters are allowed to operate as quasi-private schools—sans the actual academic achievements of real private schools—using public funds while being allowed to deny entry to anyone they choose, all types of segregation in our schools will only increase.
Tim, as you know, affluent exclusive suburbs existed long before charters.
As to equating segregation with opportunity, it’s worth remembering that many of Americans greatest African American leaders CHOSE to attend a historically Black college or university. “Most of America’s civil rights giants were educated at HBCUs—Dr. King, W.E.B. DuBois, Rosa Parks, Booker T. Washington, and Thurgood Marshall….Legendary artists and authors came out of HBCUs—Ralph Ellison, Alice Walker, Zora Neale Hurston, Langston Hughes, and Toni Morrison.”
“In our time, Jesse Jackson, Andy Young, Barbara Jordan, Congressman John Lewis, Marian Wright Edelman, and Doug Wilder all earned their degrees at HBCUs.”
Secretary Duncan pointed this out last week.
Young, Jordan, Lewis, Edelman, Wilder, etc. etc were not forced to attend these places.
There is a continued combination by some in which having a choice is equated with forced segregation. It’s not the same.
PSP, I’m sure that some charters worsen intra-district segregation. But to whatever extent that they do, it is a patch on the enormously larger problem of segregation BY district/municipality.
I’ll use a real-world example: District 12 in New York City covers a densely populated section of the central Bronx. 249 of its 22,669 students in 2012 were white; overall, it is 97% black and Hispanic with about 90% of the kids eligible for free lunch.
It is less than 10 miles from the heart of District 12 to some of the wealthiest inner-ring suburbs of Westchester County. I’ll use the closest, Bronxville, as an example. It has a district population of 1,569 children. 8 of them are black, 63 are Hispanic, and 2–two, that’s not a typo–are eligible for free lunch.
You can do this exercise with any decent-sized northeastern or midwestern city and find similar pairings, often between cities/towns that are separated by nothing more than a line on a map. None of it happened by accident. It is the result of decades of discriminatory real estate practices, redlining, police intimidation (Google “sundown” towns), and what James Loewen describes as “private bad behavior” (threats, assaults, cross burnings, etc.).
Whether or not District 12’s white kids or Bronxville’s minority kids are evenly dispersed among their respective district’s schools and classrooms isn’t the problem here.
Interview questions were okay, but your answers were astonishingly focused.
Hope it gets spread far and wide!
I heard this interview and I am so glad you are out there defending us. NPR has been deeply disappointing to me on education issues lately because they are constantly pushing Common Core. Bill and Melinda give them a lot of money, and it seems to have really clouded their judgement and journalistic integrity.
I wanted to provide you with this link about the changes to the grading system in Tennessee “Achievement” School District. You may have seen it already. These are state takeover schools, and they are being judged on a separate and unequal standard from the rest of us in public schools. Teachers that I have talked to who have received students transferred from these schools have told me that they are appallingly low on basic skills. The holier than thou state district claims that they are doing a great job. The reality is something very different.
http://raleigh-frayser.wmctv.com/news/news/196672-grading-system-changes-concerns-parents
UNC has just introduced a webcam that will replace teachers as literacy coaches.
Tech people should address this concern head on because it isn’t going away.
The concern is that tech will be used to replace face to face instruction, particularly in working class and middle class districts like mine, because we’re always looking to cut costs. That’s reality.
This is a valid and rational concern as anyone who has watched local schools deal with budget cuts can tell you. Schools are strapped. If tech offers a cheap way out, they’ll grab it, and they won’t do it in wealthy districts, they’ll do it in poor districts.
I read that one NJ “blended learning” charter has a 60 to 1 student teacher ration for online courses. I can’t help but notice this experiment is being conducted in low income areas. Can tech people assure us that this won’t be used as a cheap replacement for teachers? How can they assure us of this, given political (lobbying) and local budgetary realities? I’ll oppose it in my district until I get those assurances. I refuse to go down another ed reform slippery slope that ends badly. Bluntly, are working class and middle class districts going to get screwed?
How about we experiment with this in the wealthiest districts, see how it goes, and then we’ll be later adopters out here in the cheap seats.
No reason the poorer-est districts have to do all the experiments. Let’s share the excitement! 🙂
Chiara: better yet, how about mandating this experiment where it hits home? How about the self-styled education reformers putting some skin in the game?
Not using OTHER PEOPLE’S CHILDREN as the lab rats, but the leading charterites/privatizers using THEIR OWN CHILDREN.
Hmmm… Sidwell Friends, Harpeth Hall, U of Chicago Lab Schools, Cranbrook, Waldorf School of the Pacific, Lakeside School, Deerfield Academy, Maumee Valley Country Day School, Delbarton School, Dwight School, Harvard-Westlake—need I go on?
Although, to be realistic [and not RHEEalistic], the day that these and other schools like them are required to follow lockstep in the techno-illogical mandates of the Most Cagebusting Twenty First Century EduMetrically Correct charterites/privatizers, is the day
That pigs fly and, well, in the words of the character on WAYNE’S WORLD, “Monkeys fly out of my” — no need to get all Pitbull here.
You get the idea.
🙂
I have no problem with places like Sidwell and Harpeth – they provide a valuable education at least to the kids that can get in. If someone like Matt Damon wants to send his kids to a place like that, I don’t have an issue with it because that’s the kind of education he promotes for everyone else’s kids.
What should be mandated is that if you promote the “no-excuses”, “drill-to-kill” types of education “reform”, you should be required to enroll your children in a school that practices such methods.
It’s not the progressive schools that are the problem; the problem is the hypocrites who enroll their own kids in progressive schools while forcing everyone else’s kids into regressive schools.
Dienne: ya has dado en el blanco/you’ve hit the target (less literally, “you’ve hit the nail on the head!”)
🙂
all very true, but it also appears that certain people—like politicians who have sold their souls to the lobbyists for “virtual schools”—are possibly very happy, even gleeful, about the budget shortfalls in their state’s districts.
you see, if they don’t actively work to find a solution for these district budgets that are in the red, then “We’ll unfortunately have no choice but to move to virtual schools. Sorry. We’re broke. Can’t do anything about it except live with less, so we HAVE TO move to virtual schools…and, let me assure you that the campaign contributions I’ve received from these virtual school companies, and the fact that my daughter was recently hired by one of them is absolutely coincidental…”
If you hate public schools—and make no mistake, some of these politicians most definitely DO hate them—why would you work to keep them open and fully functioning IF you can help your “client”, the virtual “schools” company AND kill those hated public, union-filled schools?
if you’re a public school-hating politician, isn’t that known as a “two-fer”? How…coincidental…and fortunate… 😉
You weren’t kidding. As they say on ESPN, You were “en fuego!” Perhaps there is hope for NPR!
Outstanding!!! Concise. Straight to the heart of the matter on issue after issue. If I could have every parent in the country read or hear one small piece on the current situation in U.S. education, it would be this. Brilliantly done!!!
Readers of this blog: Please share this interview with Dr. Ravitch far and wide. I shall.
I heard this broadcast this morning and was disappointed by your rationale towards technology.
What is technology? This term is often used broadly without specific consideration to what you are actually talking about. It seems you are considering that computer technology may make teachers obsolete. You may forget that the printing press is also technology, and computer technology which you are specifically referring to in the context of education is simply an evolution of the printing press. Can improved books and learning materials make teachers obsolete? If they are unwilling to change their methods then possibly some of them; yes. This will result in increased demand for teachers with the new skill set.
As someone in the education industry, you might think I would be worried about this possibility, but I am not. My reasoning is straightforward. Future computerized educational learning systems will contain thorough curriculums, and someone with expert knowledge will need to assist in the programming and updating of these curriculums, as well as the analysis of results. This demand may simply replace the in classroom demand and represents a shift from on-premise teaching to remote teaching.
So your concern Diane (and like-minded followers and teachers) should not be whether or not your time and knowledge will become obsolete.. Your concern should be whether or not you will have the skills and ability to adapt to the future of delivering education.
So which company in the “education” industry do you work for?
I was delighted to hear it live. My favorite part (about charters making profits): “Is that automatically wrong?” “Yes.” Nice and clear. For the record, David Greene, the host who gave the good intro to the interview, knows the importance of education: his mother taught psychology at the college level.
I was thrilled to get a phone call today from my retired mentor teacher who had heard the interview while travelling back to Memphis and was telling me all about how brilliant it was and she wanted to know more about “this Diane Ravitch”. I pointed out that this is what I had already talked about to her but she didn’t pay close attention until she heard the interview I guess. I’m thrilled to think how well our message is spreading with this new book!
Really good interview. I hope you make it to the DFW area sometime to promote this book. For others who are curious about Diane’s tour, I found the schedule at the random house site: http://www.randomhouse.com/book/228036/reign-of-error-by-diane-ravitch#events Maybe this has been posted already.
Reblogged this on Ceteris.
Steve Inskeep is an inept interviewer (“Is that automatically wrong?), but you were great!
I just heard this on the radio in the car on my way to school. Another teacher I know said, “I just heard this person on the radio talking about schools, and she really made sense, but I didn’t get her name.” I told her that is Dr. Ravitch, the only friend we have on the national scene. My friend asked me why the interview was so short. I told her that Bill Gates funds NPR, so maybe he told the interviewer to keep it short. Regardless, a great interview, by the only person on the national scene that teachers listen to and respect. Way to go Dr. Ravitch! Keep telling them the truth until they get it.
Reblogged this on Rise & Shine and commented:
Until teachers are given autonomy in their classrooms, education reform will remain a corporate game that lines the pockets of those who are well connected to the major players.
Diane Ravitch is shouting at the Emperor’s parade, but the event organizers won’t admit he has no clothes. I hope someone important is listening.
My alarm clock is set to NPR , this morning I couldn’t believe my ears when I heard Diane on Morning Addition, first I thought I was dreaming. First morning in a very long time I did not hit the snooze button. A truly great way to start the day!
You made it clear, Diane, “I don’t believe in school choice. I believe that every neighborhood school should be a good public school. And if the parents don’t want the good local public school and they want to send their child to a private school, they should do so – but they should pay for it.”
You did not say – I believe local school boards should have the ability to create choices. You said, “I don’t believe in school choice.”
Sadly, this is the kind of opposition that many innovative public school educators have faced for decades.
Some of us have learned that there is no single best kind of public school for all youngsters…that some blossom in a Montessori, some do better in a Core Knowledge, some are better in a more traditional school, some want language immersion schools, etc. etc.
Some of us believe there can (and should be) quality options (that don’t have admissions tests) within public education. That can be good for students and good for educators because having options allows the educators to use their creativity and insight.
You were FABULOUS!!!!!!!! KC
Sent from my iPad
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Brave teen mom shares her short story (thanks to St Paul Public School teachers who encouraged her to do this)
http://centerforschoolchange.org/2013/09/teen-mom-shares-her-story-of-being-brave/
Here’s a link to an essay by an outstanding Boston Public School district educator who worked with others to create the Boston Arts Academy, a district option. Despite our last names, we are not related.
http://lindanathan.com/