A reader who signs in as “democracy” posted this comment:
Education in a democratic republic has a special place and purpose. At least it’s supposed to, and public education’s purpose is most certainly NOT to make a society “more competitive.” Aristotle argued for a system of public education in ancient Athens, noting that “each government has a peculiar character…the character of democracy creates democracy, and the character of oligarch creates oligarchy, and always the better the character, the better the government.”
Democratic governance is supposed to be “of the people, by the people, for the people.” By contrast, oligarchy is government by a relatively small – usually wealthy – group that “exercises control especially for corrupt and selfish purposes.” Considering who funds the Common Core, and who supports it (think the Business Roundtable and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce), and the process by which it was brought to fruition, is there really any question as to the purpose behind it?
Early state constitutions in the U.S., like those of Massachusetts (1780) and New Hampshire (1784), set up and stressed the importance of a system of public education. The Land Ordinance of 1785 provided for public school financing in new territories. In Virginia, Thomas Jefferson sought a publicly-funded system of schools, believing that an educated citizenry was critical to the well-being of a democratic society. In his Notes on the State of Virginia (1794), Jefferson wrote “The influence over government must be shared among all men.” The earliest advocates for public schools –– Jefferson, George Washington, Horace Mann, for example –– agreed that democratic citizenship was a primary function of education.
There are those who don’t believe in the fundamental purpose of public education. They are not interested in the developing the “democratic citizen,” one who understands and is committed to the core values and principles of democratic governance; one who is imbued with the “character of democracy.” There are certain people and groups and special interests who’ve felt threatened by education for “the masses,” especially Mann’s view of public education as “the balance-wheel of the social machinery” in a democratic society. And this begs the question, is the Business Roundtable committed to the core values and principles of democracy? The Chamber of Commerce? Bill Gates? Jeb Bush? And what about Arne Duncan?
All of these people and groups make two false claims about public education in the United States. First, they say that public schools are in “crisis.” Nothing could be further from the truth.
As I’ve noted repeatedly, the data (which these folks claim to care about) have shown and continue to show that there is no general “crisis” in public education in the United States.
The Sandia Report (Journal of Educational Research, May/June, 1993), published in the wake of A Nation at Risk, concluded that:
* “..on nearly every measure we found steady or slightly improving trends.”
* “youth today [the 1980s] are choosing natural science and engineering degrees at a higher rate than their peers of the 1960s.”
* “business leaders surveyed are generally satisfied with the skill levels of their employees, and the problems that do exist do not appear to point to the k-12 education system as a root cause.”
* “The student performance data clearly indicate that today’s youth are achieving levels of education at least as high as any previous generation.”
The critics like to cherry-pick international test data to buttress their call for “reform.” I suppose if –– like the Roundtable and the Chamber – you’re willing game the economy for profit at the expense of the nation, while calling for more top-end tax cuts and the axing of social safety net and public programs, then you’re also quite willing to lie about a set of numbers.
Reading is considered to be a key to learning and school achievement. Below are PISA reading scores (disaggregated for the U.S., which has an incredibly large, diverse, and increasingly poor student population:
Average score, reading literacy, PISA, 2009:
[United States, Asian students 541]
Korea 539
Finland 536
[United States, white students 525]
Canada 524
New Zealand 521
Japan 520
Australia 515
Netherlands 508
Belgium 506
Norway 503
Estonia 501
Switzerland 501
Poland 500
Iceland 500
United States (overall) 500
Sweden 497
Germany 497
Ireland 496
France 496
Denmark 495
United Kingdom 494
Hungary 494
OECD average 493
Portugal 489
Italy 486
Slovenia 483
Greece 483
Spain 481
Czech Republic 478
Slovak Republic 477
Israel 474
Luxembourg 472
Austria 470
[United States, Hispanic students 466]
Turkey 464
Chile 449
[United States, black students 441]
Mexico 425
[Note: data can be gleaned at http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/pisa2009highlights.asp ]
The common refrain among the current crop of “reformers” is that their brand of “reform” is necessary to “make America more competitive” in the global economy. Bill Gates says it. Jeb Bush says it. The U.S. Chamber says that ““Common core academic standards among the states are essential” U.S. competitiveness. The Business Roundtable resurrects the “rising tide of mediocrity” myth of A Nation at Risk, saying (falsely) that ““Since the release of A Nation at Risk in 1983, it has been increasingly clear that…academic expectations for American students have not been high enough.” And Arne Duncan parrots what they say.
However, as I continue to point out, the U.S. already IS internationally competitive.
The World Economic Forum ranks nations each year on competitiveness. It uses “a highly comprehensive index” of the “many factors” that enable “national economies to achieve sustained economic growth and long-term prosperity.”
The U.S. is usually in the top five (if not 1 or 2). When it drops, the WEF doesn’t cite education, but stupid economic decisions and policies.
For example, when the U.S. dropped from 2nd to 4th in 2010-11, four factors were cited by the WEF for the decline: (1) weak corporate auditing and reporting standards, (2) suspect corporate ethics, (3) big deficits (brought on by Wall Street’s financial implosion) and (4) unsustainable levels of debt.
Last year (2011-12), major factors cited by the WEF are a “business community” and business leaders who are “critical toward public and private institutions,” a lack of trust in politicians and the political process with a lack of transparency in policy-making, and “a lack of macroeconomic stability” caused by decades of fiscal deficits especially deficits and debt accrued over the last decade that “are likely to weigh heavily on the country’s future growth.” The WEF did NOT cite public schools as being problematic to innovation and competitiveness.
And this year (2012-13) the WEF dropped the U.S. to 7th place, citing problems like “increasing inequality and youth unemployment” and, environmentally, “the United States is among the countries that have ratified the fewest environmental treaties.“ The WEF noted that in the U.S.,”the business community continues to be critical toward public and private institutions” and “trust in politicians is not strong.” Political dysfunction has led to “a lack of macroeconomic stability” that “continues to be the country’s greatest area of weakness.”
[Note: data on 2009, from the 2010-1011 competitiveness report can be found here: http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_GlobalCompetitivenessReport_2010-11.pdf ]
The critics continue to point the finger of blame and responsibility, though, at public schools and teachers. Seriously, you’d almost have to be a moron to buy into this stuff. And yet……
The problem in American public education is largely one of poverty. The data show it. Indeed, PISA scores (the scores usually cited by public education critics) are quite sensitive to income level. If one disaggregates U.S. scores the problem becomes clearer: the more poverty a school has, the lower its scores. The presumed do-gooders seem to think that more “competition” and ambitiousness will cause the schools to fix the effects of poverty. Those effects are pernicious.
A technical report from the American Academy of Pediatrics on the damaging effects of toxic stress in children – the kind of stress found in high-poverty urban areas – finds that such stress involves “activation of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenocortical axis and the sympathetic-adrenomedullary system, which results in increased levels of stress hormones, such as corticotropin-releasing hormone (CRH), cortisol, norepinephrine, and adrenaline. These changes co-occur with a network of other mediators that include elevated inflammatory cytokines and the response of the parasympathetic nervous system, which counterbalances both sympathetic activation and inflammatory responses.”
The result is that “toxic stress in young children can lead to less outwardly visible yet permanent changes in brain structure and function….chronic stress is associated with hypertrophy and overactivity in the amygdala and orbitofrontal cortex, whereas comparable levels of adversity can lead to loss of neurons and neural connections in the hippocampus and medial PFC. The functional consequences of these structural changes include more anxiety related to both hyperactivation of the amygdala and less top-down control as a result of PFC atrophy as well as impaired memory and mood control as a consequence of hippocampal reduction.”
See: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/129/1/e232.full.pdf
In plain speak, alleviating poverty and its pernicious effects, and providing children with high quality environments before they get to school, and following up with health and academic and social policy programs while they are in school, results not only in high-quality education but also in a high-quality citizenry….and in promoting the general welfare of the nation. This is surely not what the “reformers” want. It might – will – require a cessation to the gaming of the “markets” and the tax system.
The public education system in a democratic republic is supposed to develop and nurture democratic character and citizenship. That’s the kind of reform we need.
And it’s exactly the kind of reform the “reformers” detest.
Reblogged this on News You May Have Missed and commented:
Reflections on the Purpose of Education and the Manufactured Crisis
Reblogged this on David R. Taylor-Thoughts on Texas Education.
GREAT piece from the aptly named “democracy”
Excellent! Thanks for highlighting this, Diane.
If the crisis is manufactured (and I’m not saying that it’s not), then it might be a bit problematic to claim that #rephorm is destroying public education–unless that’s measured solely by the number of public schools closing instead of actual changes of trends in academic performance.
Is it problematic to claim that reform solitions are causing problems where there were none, or that reformers are strategically avoiding the real problems? Because I think that’s the argument being put forth here.
What do you get when you “fix” what is not broken? New Coke, Windows Vista and 8.0, etc.
Reblogged on The Class Warfare Blog. Excellent comment/post.
Democracy, I always read your posts and learn. Thank you.
The reformer in chief:
February 2011:
WASHINGTON (AFP) – US President Barack Obama highlighted Saturday the importance of improving the US education system as a means of maintaining America’s competitive edge in the modern world.
“If we want to win the global competition for new jobs and industries, we’ve got to win the global competition to educate our people,” Obama said.
To address this problem, Obama said, his administration has introduced a program called “Race to the Top,” which is designed to lifting academic standards.
The president has been misguided by corporate opportunists who will profit off of the Race to the Top program. This is the worst possible situation for our students.
Sadly, this President has shown himself to be a corporatist through almost all his actions. He had an opportunity to make real change but he chose not to. Not to put single payer health care on the table, not to close Guantanamo, not to do secret trade agreements which will further decimate American workers, and on and on.
His appointments are prime indicators of his own belief system….Arne Duncan, Tim Geithner, Jeff Immelt of GE, Rahm Emanuel, Furman, Orszag, FDA and CDC appointments of a Christian warrior and a VP of Monsanto, and other of the Wall Street banksters who caused the toppling of the US and the world’s economic system. He relies on Bob Rubin and Larry Summers as advisors, these Goldman Sachs and Citicorp men who were the deregulators under Clinton. They are Dems in name only, or maybe as I suspect, Dems are as greedy and oligarchic as Reps.
The movement to privatize public schools is only part of the equation of total corporate takeover of America. SCOTUS is comprised of a majority of Right Wing activists who gave us Citizens United as the law of the land.
Finally we see the Tea Party members realizing how they, as well as the rest of us, have been demolished. This is my ray of hope. If there is a joining of forces of the middle class, we can still beat back at the ballot box this onslaught by the wealthiest to make all the rest of us their serfs.
If Egypt can fight back, so can we.
Reblogged this on inspirEDucation and commented:
It’s July 4th and I honestly wonder how our Founding Fathers would react if they could see what “education deformers” are doing to our country today.
We were founded on the principle that education is a human right, and that everyone should have equal opportunity to access a quality education, no matter what zip code they’re in. No, education deformers, this does not mean “choice.” This does not mean turning our system into a “Race to the Top” where there are winners and losers. This does not mean dictating every facet of the system without considering the precious input of those subjected to the system. This does not mean destroying our public school system through privatization. This means ensuring that our public school system is able to ensure every single child a well-rounded, DEMOCRATIC education.
And we have been pushed far in the other direction by hedge fund billionaires, corporate “leaders”, and activist-profiteers. Thomas Jefferson must be rolling in his grave.
I’m actually ashamed to be American today. Until we can do better (and this starts with taking down education deformers and starting to move in a positive direction), we cannot possibly say that we are a country that promises freedom and liberty and power to the people.
Thank you for saying what I have been thinking for so long!
Great post democracy. I first heard the term “toxic stress” in an episode of This American Life last fall called Back To School. I see the effects of toxic stress in my students every day. Because the word “poverty” is perceived as an “excuse” word, I started to use the term “toxic stress” when communicating a concern about a student to my administrator and special ed team. Here is a link to the podcast:
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/474/back-to-school
Happy Fourth!
I may be misremembering, but the 1780 MA constitution put schoolteachers and ministers in the same category (I think it mandated hiring Protestant teachers, among other things). While there was a vague handwaving notion towards legislature regulation of both, there was also clearly a statement that the legislature couldn’t tell towns whom to hire, and if there were taxes collected to support teachers, you couldn’t be forced to pay taxes to hire a teacher of a different denomination. There was far more specificity about the recognition of Harvard as a chartered entity than there was about primary schooling. New Hampshire didn’t have that twist, but it borrowed the “towns hire their own teachers, but don’t tax non-Congregationalists for Congregationalist teachers” bit.
I’m not a colonial specialist, but I think you don’t really get the citizenship-education bundle until you get well into the 19th century. About the same time coeducation is universal in Northern primary schools…
The NH Constitution simply states that the legislature must “cherish” education. What this means has been the subject of years of lawsuits. Though most “democracy”‘s comments are right on the mark, I noticed exactly what you point out when I fist read the post the other day.
We don’t have an education problem; we. Have a poverty problem.
Yes…
I’d like to say that we have an ethical problem that leads to many human inequalities such as poverty and the many gaps in a society. Those with money and power control poverty, social class, economy(society in general). When government and private sector collaborate, we have corruption as we know it and why the public needs to keep vigilant as we’re doing here. Greed (associated with money and power) is envitable and causes people to make unethical decisions. “Everyday people” help to keep the checks and balances in place and to keep those in power honest and selfless. I respect that you said, “we have a poverty problem.” The key word is WE. WE must stand together to create change as those in power lose sight of the effects of their needs.
This is a beautiful piece. One thing is wrong though. That is that low performance of poor children is all due to their poverty. Nothing could be further from the truth. Yes, it is a part of the situation. But, then you have to ask “How is it that the staff at the school where Monica Ratliff has worked until the end of this year has very high API scores in the wrong end of town?” Or how was it that my friend Richard Arthur in 1970 took over the most violent and criminal school in the U.S., Castlemont High School in Richmond, California, where they had constant gunfights and the principal before Richard was shot and killed in their office. After Richard took over no more even just fist fights. Over 50% dropout to almost zero. 5-65% to college. He also had the first parent centers and each teacher had a button in their classroom if there was trouble and if that teacher hit their button 3 staff were in the room in 2-3 minutes. In one week no more trouble for teachers. People started moving back to send their children there and then the SLA assinated Marcus Foster, the superintendent, and tried to do the same to Richard twice. He then moves back to L.A. as he had a wife and young children and is one of the founders of Whitney High School which is one of the highest performing public high schools in the U.S. for over 25 years continuously. Richard is still alive. Do not tell me it cannot be done. When many dedicated people have done it. Why not put them in a room and come up with a plan for success as they know how to do it?
THE FISH ROTS FROM THE HEAD. Bad administators equals bad schools and outcomes no matter what. Too many people have excuses for failure and no accountability. Parents and students are treated like trash now in every urban school district of any size. At LAUSD over 117,000 students do not come to school everyday up from only 10 years before 14,500. If you want to raise your test scores drive off your low performers. This is a mathematical certainty. NO MORE EXCUSES POOR CHILDREN ARE SMART ALSO. 73% OF ALL OF THE 5,000 150+ I.Q. children of LAUSD are in those poverty areas. I have found these poverty people to be the most dedicated and smart when shown the facts. You have to communicate properly. You have to allow teachers to really teach children the way they actually learn not by some preprogrammed, timed to the second so-called learning program.
Monica Ratliff being inaugurated by her wonderful mother just loaded up on You Tube at George1la along with her inauguration speech. Please watch and listen to what she says about this subject. More is loading such as public speakers and other students performing at the board that day from not wealthy areas. Never tell me and I am sure at LAUSD now Richard Vladavic, new board president, Marguerite LaMotte, Bennett Keyser, Steve Zimmer or Monica Ratliff that it cannot be done. These people have a proven record and now we will see what they can do. It will not be overnight as there is big power against them and they need your backup. Do you know that not one T.V. station came for this historic event? Other than the districts camera I had the only other camera there. Now all in the world can watch if they wish. That is why I take uncut video and load it up on You Tube at George1la. We need more Badass Teachers with an attitude of “YOU WILL NOT DESTROY OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM AND RUIN THE FUTURE OF OUR YOUTH.” CORE-CA is dedicated to this end and we work tirelessly to this end in all areas of “Community.” I am the Director of Policy for the Congress of Racial Equality of California (CORE-CA). We work in all areas of public policy and legislation especially for disadvantaged communities. The founding family of CORE-CA, the L.A. King Family, has a civil rights history continuously of 114 years. We are dedicated.
It’s entirely accurate to observe that our “executive class” is doing an extraordinary job of destroying not just our schools but our country and phase one needs to be wrestling the controls away from them.
Yes….
Questions:
Is the U.S. the only country with diversity, including diversity of wealth?
Does anyone remember that during the early days of this country, even after the American Revolution, that in many states, only land owners or persons (white men) making a certain amount of money could vote? So, those two state Constitutions mentioned were written during a time where the “wealthy elite” were making the decisions about public education. As a matter of fact, there was a time in our early history where if you were a woman teaching and you decided to marry, you had to resign your teaching position. Are those really the good ole days?
1. We seem to be a special case in the group of nations partcipating in the PISA tests referenced in this post, exceeding by far the % students living in poverty. I found more data for a fuller picture in this wiki footnote to its PISA article:
http://nasspblogs.org/principaldifference/2010/12/pisa_its_poverty_not_stupid_1.html
2. I don’t think the post is saying the country’s early days were the good old days, it’s reminding us of goals set forth.
Spanish&French,
I looked at the link you provided. I plotted the data points on a graph. I had to create a blog post in order to show anyone interested what it looks like because I cannot post a picture in a blog comment.
I’m just not convinced of an overwhelming corollary between “poverty” and the PISA score. Sure, if you plotted a trend line, you might see a slight dip, but not one that would completely explain the score differences.
You can find the chart here: http://onewomansdiscernment.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/pisa-score-and-poverty-what-does-the-graph-say-to-you/
The achievement gap between lower and higher income students is not specific to America. “International Tests Show Achievement Gaps in All Countries”: http://www.epi.org/blog/international-tests-achievement-gaps-gains-american-students/#sthash.jTS5d8A4.dpuf
Reblogged this on DICK.GAINES.AMERICAN! ~ GUNNY G'S SINCE 1997…… and commented:
DICK.GAINES.AMERICAN!
Gung Ho!
*****
Reblogged this on ENGLISH LANGUAGE REVIEW .
We need to stand up and shout out these facts and issues as loudly as the reformers are shouting thiers. Every comment thy make we must demand proof from them to back it up.
Here’s the origin story we all learned. Paul Robeson sings ithttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnXyGr668wg out in “Ballad for Americans”
Diane, here’s something I need help understanding. I’ve read your last book, and I’ve read a lot on this blog, and I understand that you’ve changed your views on policies you supported in the past, including school choice. And I understand that the main reason you changed your views is that, as you and Keynes said, “the facts changed,” i.e. the evidence has shown that school choice and test-based accountability do not actually work.
But what I don’t understand is how your views about the quality of US public education have changed. You were once very critical of US public education, one of the people who argued that US students didn’t perform well compared to other countries. Before, you said that people who claimed there was no education crisis were wrong, and now you argue that the so-called “crisis” is manufactured.
I assume you don’t think public education has improved in recent years — you recently argued that NAEP results showed that performance had become stagnant from 2008-2012. So were you reading the data incorrectly before? Have you come to understand the data differently? Is it just a question of emphasis — that the main point is to oppose bad policies, and that emphasizing the negative aspects of public education is not politically productive?
I see there is no response yet. You are not the only one who has wondered about this.
Scroll down…she has responsed. Open your eyes!
Diane, this article tells much in way of the truth, and we can learn from Aristotle, Socrates, Horace Mann, and others. What I do appreciate is the look that we are giving ourselves. However, there is a serious crisis in education. It has been caused by those who have professed that there is a crisis, and that they want to fix it…corporations who wish to remove public schools to make money on “charter schools”, Jeb Bush, Arne Duncan, and others. They are causing devastation to learning by dictating for a system based on testing, data, and a systematic, time-sensitive learning environment with cookie cutter jargon, standards for all. Learning is individual and is based upon freedom of choice, respect, caring, democracy, and creative thinking. It is what everyone deserves to be able to get, but is an individual process, and definitely builds from there. My learning is my special gift, and I can then choose how to use my learning to contribute to the common good. It is in a much more sacred place than test score reports. The letter “A” can never express the learning received in that course and the impact it has on the receiver or society. Our crisis is caused by those who profess to want to help “raise the bar”, but in reality there are no bars to be raised…there is humanity, society, and a democratic, free community that needs to be sustained. There are children, adults, and families.
I just noticed that the comment by “democracy” that’s featured in this post discusses the Sandia Report from the early 1990s. The Sandia Report, as I understand it, was a kind of debunking of A Nation At Risk, arguing that US public education was not in crisis.
Below is what Dr. Ravitch wrote about the Sandia Report, and the state of US education, in December 2007 on the Huffington Post:
“This discussion now comes on the heel of the latest international assessment of achievement in mathematics and science. This study, called PISA (or Program for International Student Assessment), found American teenagers lagging far behind their peers in other nations in both subjects. Out of 30 developed nations that participated in the tests, U.S. students ranked lower than 16 other nations and below the international average. Our students did even worse in math.
The averages of even our top-scoring students in math were statistically worse than 23 of the participating nations, equal to those in Spain and Portugal. Only four countries had worse scores than ours: Italy, Greece, Turkey, and Mexico.
Now surely, Gerald Bracey will find some way to try to belittle these findings. Presumably the Sandia engineers would say that our scores were dragged down by large numbers of minority kids, forgetting that they are part of the population we must educate. But when even our top-scoring students are way behind, then maybe we should pay attention.
In the 16 years since the Sandia report kerfuffle, their rosy view has been disproven again and again. We do need to improve American education. We need to improve it for the kids who have low scores, and we need to improve it for those who have top scores.”
This is exactly the thing that, as I said in my comment above, I cannot understand. Six years ago, the Sandia Report had been totally disproven and US education was in serious trouble. Today, US education is doing perfectly fine and the Sandia Report was spot on. Diane, what am I missing?
FLERP! I was wrong. The Sandia report was right. That’s what you were missing. Read my new book. It comes out mid-September.
Re: being “wrong” — I assume you don’t mean that you were wrong when you wrote “the averages of even our top-scoring students in math were statistically worse than 23 of the participating nations” and that only four countries had worse scores than ours: Italy, Greece, Turkey, and Mexico.” Do you mean that you incorrectly interpreted the significance of these facts, or that you got the facts wrong?
Thanks for the response, as always. Your willingness to engage commenters is amazing. And I’m sure I will read your book.
@ FLERP
Mark Twain popularized this phrase:
“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”
There’s more than a little truth to that statement.
Consider (and thanks to Bob Somerby at The Daily Howler for pointing this out):
The latest NAEP long-term results show significant learning gains for American students, despite a student population that is far more diverse – and poor – than forty years ago, and despite all the forced “reform” and testing, and despite the fact that the drop-out rate is significantly lower now than then. And yet Brian Williams at NBC news, focusing only on the aggregate score of 17-year-olds, called the NAEP results “a grim report.” Williams said not a word about the disaggregated scores of 17-year-olds, nor did he mention scores for 9- and 13-year-olds (which show impressive gains). He gave the entire report 68 words; the funeral of James Gandolfini got twice the word coverage.
Technically – statistically – Williams told the “truth.” But it was only a partial truth. And in that sense, Brian Williams and NBC news (which has had some egregiously poor education “reporting”) failed to tell the truth, they failed Journalism 101, and they failed the public.
As I pointed out, there is no general “crisis” in public education. Never has been. Public education and public school educators do a pretty good job, even as they get blamed for the nation’s deficiencies, real (more poverty) and perceived (think Sputnik, or A Nation at Risk’s claim of “a rising tide of mediocrity, or the warning that American “economic competitiveness” depends of school reform).
Much if not most of what we think we know about education is demonstrably false. The SAT and ACT are more worthless than not (the best predictor of college achievement is unweighted high school GPA). The College Board’s Advanced Placement program is more hype than quality (research finds that “when demographic characteristics are controlled for, the claims made for AP disappear.”). Charter schools are generally no better than public schools, and often much worse. Merit pay has a poor track record.
Intense high-stakes testing is not necessary for genuine, research-based learning reform, and is mostly antithetical to it.
If we focused our resources and energies on educating for democratic character and citizenship, we’d be far better off –– educationally, politically and economically –– than we are now. Aristotle believed that public education was critical to developing and maintaining the precepts of democratic societies –– popular sovereignty, equality, justice, freedoms for all citizens, tolerance, and promoting the general welfare. He believed that “the care of each part is inseparable from the care of the whole.”
I do too.
You packed a lot in there, but I’d say I agree with more than half of what you wrote, and I disagree with none of it. I trust close to zero percent of the statistics I read or hear. If I decide it’s something I want to have an opinion about, I look at the data and methodology myself. Otherwise, I have no view one way or the other.
There is one real crisis in US education, however. There is a full-blown funding crisis in many cities. In many others, it’s a storm cloud that’s just about to hit.
@Democracy,
Since your comments have been the focus of this blog post, I address the following to you.
Yesterday I graphed the data points provided in a link by Spanish&French where the poverty rates for each country on the PISA score list were compared to their PISA scores. I found no correlation between poverty and PISA scores from that data. But it got me thinking. Were the poverty figures correct? I found discrepancies; big ones.
I have a new blog post highlighting the Human Poverty Index (compiled by the United Nation) for each of the countries you presented in the PISA study and showing the relationship between the HPI and PISA scores. In addition, I have used the poverty figures provided in the HPI data (described as being below 50% of median income) and plotted that data against the PISA scores. You can find the data here: http://onewomansdiscernment.wordpress.com/2013/07/05/pisa-scores-revisited-was-mark-twain-right/
Again, I find absolutely no correlation using any of these figures.
Also, while the link you provided shows a difference in scores between students in schools qualifying for free lunch and their PISA scores in the US, this does not prove the same is the case in other countries. Do you have the data disaggregated for all the other countries on the list between their poor and their privileged? All you have shown, and I happen to agree with you, is that in the US we do not do a good job of effectively educating all children and that the way we provide education underserves the poor.
To reiterate, you’ve shown that in the US, students in schools that have less than 10% of students receiving free lunch outperform the average student in other countries and this means we are doing OK in the American education system. I know I’m just a parent, but this seems like a comparison of apples and oranges. .
Cindy,
I am not sure where you are getting your data from, but you might want to read this article: http://www.inthetrencheswithschoolreform.com/the-good-news-about-pisa-scores-and-now-we-know-what-the-real-problem-is/
In fact, on every standardized test given anywhere in the world, poverty is the single most reliable predictor of low test scores.
And you should read this as well by Martin Carnoy and Richard Rothstein: https://ed.stanford.edu/news/poor-ranking-international-tests-misleading-about-us-performance-new-report-finds
Please tell me if you find a test where there is no correlation between poverty and low scores.
Diane
Diane,
I provided my links. The data speaks for itself. I am not disputing that poverty and low test scores are linked if you disaggregate the poor from the rich and compare their scores. What I am saying is that when you look at countries PISA scores compared to their poverty rates, you do not see a direct correlation between their performance and poverty.
While you might see that correlation if you looked at each country’s scores individually and compared them against their own countrymen, this does not explain why some countries with the same poverty rates score better than others. I did not create the data that I used. And I don’t have an agenda except the truth and honesty and integrity.
If you can show me that the average student in the US (choose some arbitrary income level – I don’t care) is performing the same or better than a student in other countries of the same relative income level then I’ll consider your argument valid. But that is not what has been shown in this blog post.
Also, it would be interesting to see how our poor students perform against the other country’s poor students. Those are the kinds of comparisons that would make sense.
I’m shooting from the hip here, but based on all I’ve read, my sense is that none of the comparative studies of both global poverty rates and global “achievement” scores are very instructive. Measuring absolute poverty is difficult and requires lots of judgment and discretion. Relative poverty in one nation is often not comparable to relative poverty in another nation. Most measures of poverty rates are based on income and ignore wealth. There are also social benefits and detriments with substantial impacts on living standards but aren’t registered as “income.” And as for global achievement measurements, I don’t trust the integrity of the inputs.
That said, I don’t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows. It seems obvious that students in “poverty,” however defined, are going to score worse on standardized tests than students not in “poverty,” because as a general matter, income does correlate with parents’ education levels.
I agree. But we continue to compare our scores to other countries. Even while it is probably full of potential pitfalls, it can’t lack entirely for instructive purposes.
I attempted to use data that the United Nations has compiled on median income levels for each country. They have determined that less than 50% of median income is poverty. Is that arbitrary? I don’t know. But it seems to be unbiased. The United Nations does not compile its data for educational purposes.
Compare that to the way the authors of the second study Diane linked to in her response to me assigned or grouped students into “social class”:
“There is no precise way to make social class comparisons between countries. PISA collects data on many characteristics that are arguably related to social class status, and also assembles them into an overall index. Although none of the possible indicators of social class differences is entirely satisfactory, we think one, the number of books in the home (BH), is probably superior for purposes of international test score comparisons, and we use it for our analysis. A very high fraction of students in both the PISA and TIMSS surveys answer the BH question, something less true for other important social class indicator questions asked on the student questionnaires. As we explain in greater detail below, we also examine whether other social class indicators, such as mother’s education or PISA’s overall index, in addition to BH, would produce meaningfully different results, and determine that they would not. We conclude that BH serves as a reasonable representation of social class (home) influences on students’ academic performance.”
So, their study is based on the number of books the students report are in their home. Next, perhaps we can disaggregate the data based on how many pairs of skinny jeans the girls have in their closet and how many Nintendo games the boys have.
If you haven’t read the second study Diane linked to, it is interesting. Because I read the study and said, “see, we aren’t doing as well as we should,” and Diane read the study and said, “see, we aren’t doing badly compared to other countries.”
But again, the study did say that our most economically advantaged are not performing as well as other countries’ most economically advantaged (or at least as well as kids in other countries with a lot of books in their homes).
Also, Diane, I looked at those links before. The first one tells me I will find the complete list of where the poverty rates were found, but when I click the link it sends me to another article. Where did the poverty data come from? The poverty data I linked to is from the United Nations.
One of the quotes from the Stanford study you linked to:
But the highest social class students in United States do worse than their peers in other nations, and this gap widened from 2000 to 2009 on the PISA.
Another quote that nicely compliments Twains: “He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp posts — for support rather than illumination.” – Andrew Lang
I’m puzzled.
I cited a wealth of data in my original post and the only thing that Cindy0803 focuses on is PISA scores. She seems to think that because the particular PISA scores she discusses do not show a perfect line of correlation, that somehow, my argument that the current spate of school “reform” is unnecessary and far off track is invalid.
Not so.
My main point remains clear: genuine reform focuses on developing and nurturing democratic citizenship. Too, public education in the U.S. it generally pretty good; it is not “in crisis.” Moreover, the arguments usually made for corporate-style “reform” simply do not hold up to scrutiny.
But Cyndi remains caught up with the PISA thing despite the links others have provided. Despite the fact that in, say Virginia, scores on the state tests (the Standards of Learning) vary across the state according to income. Despite the fact that on the SAT, for every $20,000 increase in family income there is an almost perfect jump of 15 points. Despite the fact that, as Sean Reardon notes, ” the rich-poor gap in test scores is about 40 percent larger now than it was 30 years ago…children from rich and poor families score very differently on school readiness tests when they enter kindergarten, and this gap grows by less than 10 percent between kindergarten and high school.” And despite the fact that, as Richard Rothstein points out, “a U.S. Department of Education summary concluded that ‘most participating countries do not differ significantly from the United States in terms of the strength of the relationship between socioeconomic status and literacy in any subject’.”
I think she’s missing the forest for the toothpicks.
If you back far enough it started with labeling all teachers as lazy and incompetent and all schools as failing because of a situation with her daughter, and she knows many with the same situation. Therefore, because of this all of us are defenders of the status quo, lazy, incompetent, selfish, blah, blah, blah. It is happening everywhere because it is her experience and the experience of those she associates with.
I guess we would all feel better about ourselves if we only talked to people who agreed with us. That’s the short version.
Linda,
This is not just about my daughter. I know you would like for everyone to think it is because it suits YOUR agenda, but that is just not the truth. If it were the truth, there would be no reason for this blog as only Cindy would have a problem. Furthermore, I take exception to your characterization of me calling teachers lazy and incompetent. I do not believe that I have ever said that. I think perhaps you have me confused with someone else.
The fact is that I saw this achievement gap in my daughter’s school. I was burning myself out trying to help (not with my own daughter but with other people’s children). I think I got a pretty good idea about why the problem was occurring and it wasn’t just about poverty. I have consistently maintained that I think the problem is curriculum and not lazy or incompetent teachers.
I see a multitude of posts go up on this blog on a daily basis. I comment on few of them. This one started throwing out links and data. I followed the data. I found inconsistencies. I responded. Linda, I do hope, if you are a teacher, you do not approach every parent in the same condescending way you do me and any number of other people with opinions that differ from yours.
All your posts are easily searchable and YOU clearly spoke about YOUR situation and all those YOU know who have had the same experience and YOU have expressed nothing but contempt and disgust towards teachers. You have been challenged by many. I didn’t want to waste my time arguing back and forth.
There were many, many lengthy exchanges and posts by other educators but YOU only hear what YOU want to hear and what bolsters and supports YOUR situation.
I have no reason to defend myself to you. This is a dose of reality, not sarcasm.
Linda,
You have accused me of calling teachers lazy and incompetent. That is not reality. As a teacher, I would think you would place more value on a) civil discourse and b) striving not to mischaracterize someone’s position and/or words.
You are emotional. And you let your emotions color your comments. Everyone gets a pass occasionally, but you make a habit of it.
Really, Cindy? You’re giving this advice? Pot calling kettle…..H E L L O !
Linda,
I do not believe I offered you any advice. I simply made an observation. Once again, you responded in the only way you apparently know: with condescension and sarcasm.
Cindy…take a breath and apply these suggestions to yourself. See all of your posts and reflect. Hold yourself to the same standards.
Linda,
As I’ve said. I do not comment on most of what I read here. I think I’ve shown more restraint on a regular basis being overtly condescending and sarcastic.
There have been heated discussions, but I don’t recall ever dismissing someone totally out-of-hand. I also don’t believe that I’ve ever accused someone of saying something they didn’t say.
Look, you can have the last word on this particular subject. I won’t respond to your counter to this reply. I am confident that even your supporters realize that you are snarky.
@Democracy,
I looked at your data. Did you look at mine?
My original comment to this blog post was about how you seemed to be saying that a bunch of elites had taken over education and then made the comparison to how far this was removed from the days of Jefferson and Washington. I found that interesting given who could actually vote back then (i.e., the elite). And I asked a question about relative wealth in the individual countries for which YOU posted (or rather that Diane re-posted from your comments) PISA scores. A link was provided to additional information (not by you). Diane later posted a link to this same data. I have responded to that data.
I have never argued that economic status does not influence test results or education outcomes in the United States or other countries. What I was trying to point out is that the PISA scores show that when comparing country to country, there is no direct correlation between the poverty rate in one country and its PISA scores when compared to other countries. Some countries perform better despite high poverty rates. This reflects SOMETHING.
As I have made it clear, I think it is curriculum. The curriculum taught in the US places too much emphasis on parent involvement; thus, the students from lower socioeconomic groups perform worse. I think it is probably one of the reasons our top socioeconomic students perform worse than their peers in other countries, too.
You think no reform is needed. Well, then you are totally marginalizing those of us who see a need for something to change because we are in the midst of it. If all you are concerned with is closing the achievement gap, then you will continue to disregard the fact that the current education system is failing to push achievement levels up across the board. And the only reason it is not failing worse – yes failing – is that those rich people you like to complain about are sending their kids to tutors and/or are tutoring and teaching their children themselves. You seem to think that middle-class America eats dinner with Bill and Melinda Gates on a regular basis and that we are all in this conspiracy together. If Mr. Gates is saying anything that is similar to what I am saying, it is either true or is merely coincidence.
See democracy? Now Bill is in her gang. Wow!
Cindy, Thanks for illuminating the gist of my short post.
Linda,
Please. Do you have any volume but sarcasm?
@ Cyndi,
Again, you have misrepresented what I said.
I repeat (and these are the exact words used in my original comment): ” The earliest advocates for public schools –– Jefferson, George Washington, Horace Mann, for example –– agreed that democratic citizenship was a primary function of education.”
That is historically accurate. I also noted that “Jefferson wrote ‘The influence over government must be shared among all men’.”
Thankfully, our concept of democratic governance has evolved over time. The doors to voting have been opened up (at least in states where Republicans are not actively working to suppress voting).
And yes, as I pointed out, there is no corporate-style “reform” of public education needed. The Sandia Report, in the wake of A Nation at Risk, proved that. So do PISA scores. And PIRLS scores. And NAEP scores. But you keep insisting that because you cannot find a perfect line of correlation between poverty and achievement (or lack thereof) then there must be some other reason why poverty affects poor kids in some nations, but not so much in others. And then, without any evidence whatsoever, you jump to curriculum, and say that must be it. Seriously?
The “argument” you make is sort of like the tobacco companies saying that smoking doesn’t cause heart disease or cancer because everybody who smokes doesn’t contract those ailments. Only some do. Thus, there must be some other cause. Maybe lack of exercise. Or diet. Or environmental factors. Pick one. Of course, the relationship between smoking and heart disease/cancer is well established. So too the connection between family income/poverty and school achievement.
Indeed, as the OECD reports in the 2009 PISA results, ” For a school system, a weak relationship between the family and socio-economic background of students and
performance is an indication of an equitable distribution of educational opportunities.” In other words, the lack of direct correlation that you say has to be due to curriculum, the OECD explains differently, saying that some countries distribute education resources more equitably than others. And it’s pretty clear in the U.S. that educational resources and opportunities are not equitably distributed. Far from it.
I noted this in my original comment: “There are certain people and groups and special interests who’ve felt threatened by education for ‘the masses,’ especially Mann’s view of public education as ‘the balance-wheel of the social machinery’ in a democratic society.”
Some nations (Finland) take that mission seriously. We do not.
Those who push Common Core the hardest say that what is needed to restore American “economic competitiveness” is better (“more rigorous”) standards, more testing, and merit pay for teachers. As I’ve shown, this is a straw man, easily disproved.
They say some really stupid things (“Similarly to operating a business, there is data that must be broken down and heavily considered or relied on in order to determine what areas we should be focusing on… It’s all about accountability”). They say that if only teachers worked harder, and if only we had even higher standards, and if educators and school were held accountable, then the “crisis” would get resolved. But there is no “crisis.” Let me say this clearly: It is a myth. A lie.
If we are going to reform public schooling, let’s do it intelligently. And let’s focus on what really, genuinely needs to be improved. Let us address the pernicious effects of poverty. And let us refocus and intensify our mission on democratic citizenship.
@Democracy,
I did not mean to misrepresent what you said. You said:
“Democratic governance is supposed to be “of the people, by the people, for the people.” By contrast, oligarchy is government by a relatively small – usually wealthy – group that “exercises control especially for corrupt and selfish purposes.” Considering who funds the Common Core, and who supports it (think the Business Roundtable and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce), and the process by which it was brought to fruition, is there really any question as to the purpose behind it?”
You appeared to be making the case for wealthy elites trying to run education and then you segued into the paragraph about Jefferson and Washington. I pointed out that the elites were in charge from the beginning because I was trying to show that this comparison (entirely good Founding Fathers vs. entirely bad Modern Day Politicians and elites) might not be entirely historically accurate. Sure, democracy has evolved, but you seemed to not be making that point in your original post. And although I am a HUGE fan of Jefferson, I doubt he really meant “all” men.
I don’t know what kind of evidence you want or would accept for a problem with curriculum, but I’ve put together some links below. I know putting in multiple links sends comments to moderation, so hopefully, it gets through.
http://truth-out.org/news/item/1927
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/01/29/why-urban-educated-parents-are-turning-to-diy-education.html
http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2013/06/failing-math-curriculum-in-seattle.html?m=1
Click to access Analysis_of_the_Failure_of_Discovery_PBL__Experiential_Inquiry_Learning.pdf
http://educationnext.org/eighth-grade-students-learn-more-through-direct-instruction/
http://educationnext.org/sage-on-the-stage/
Click to access Moats2007.pdf
http://www.ldonline.org/article/6394/
http://www.allaboutlearningpress.com/does-invented-spelling-have-its-place
http://www.proteacher.net/discussions/showthread.php?t=6656
This is only an appetizer. The last link is interesting, because it outlines just the kind of push back I have described from teachers when parents voice concerns regarding a curriculum. It is from a teacher forum.
Also, with the exception of the All About Learning link, I have never read a single one of these articles until today. I have read many, many others, however. But as I have tried to explain before, I did not read anything and form an opinion. I observed, decided I didn’t agree with what I saw, and then researched what I saw to see if there was any scientific research or more professional data on the subject.
I don’t understand your analogy:
“The “argument” you make is sort of like the tobacco companies saying that smoking doesn’t cause heart disease or cancer because everybody who smokes doesn’t contract those ailments. Only some do. Thus, there must be some other cause. Maybe lack of exercise. Or diet. Or environmental factors. Pick one. Of course, the relationship between smoking and heart disease/cancer is well established. So too the connection between family income/poverty and school achievement.”
I have said that smoking causes heart disease. But it DOES NOT cause heart disease in non-smokers which is what YOU are saying with your argument…..unless….the non-smokers are forced to breathe the smokers’ damaging second-hand smoke; i.e., bad curriculum.
Then you say this:
“They say that if only teachers worked harder, and if only we had even higher standards, and if educators and school were held accountable, then the “crisis” would get resolved. But there is no “crisis.” Let me say this clearly: It is a myth. A lie.”
I don’t think teachers need to work harder. I think they need to work differently and be given the proper tools, a lot of autonomy and smaller class sizes. I think high standards are good. I think you probably do, too. It is the strategy to reach those high standards where we differ. Is it a crisis? It depends on what you consider a crisis. If your neighbor’s water line is leaking such that they are paying high water usage fees, it is probably not a crisis to you. However, if half the neighborhood’s water lines are leaking and it is causing the whole neighborhood’s water pressure to decrease, their lawns to flood, and a water shortage, people might start to call it a crisis. And, if you are in charge of the water line maintenance, people might start to complain to you; even if you have very little control over the situation (i.e., a small budget, unreliable employees, and crummy, unsupportive bosses).
@ Cyndi:
The Sandia Report (two decades ago), and the PISA results (disaggregated), and the latest NAEP results prove that there is no general “crisis” in education. The notion that there is a “crisis” is a myth. A lie.
So, if there is no general “crisis,” then how does a more rigorous curriculum fix what does not exist? It’s analogous to treating the symptoms of a disease (pick one, cancer, Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, Cerebrovascular Disease, Ischemic Heart Disease) with bloodletting.
As I note, the OECD, which coordinates PISA testing points out that “” For a school system, a weak relationship between the family and socio-economic background of students and performance is an indication of an equitable distribution of educational opportunities.”
That’s how you get at the “water line” analogy you describe….”an equitable distribution of educational opportunities.” Might that mean smaller class sizes? Yes. Might that mean more teacher autonomy? Yes. Might it mean a strong connection between community agencies (health departments, for example) and schools? Sure.
But it does not mean that the Common Core is needed.
And there is a very strong link between family income and student achievement…for some reason, you seem to keep trying to say there isn’t.
@Democracy,
You keep referring to the disaggregated data put out by NCES. The report clearly states that IT IS NOT POSSIBLE to compare race/ethnicity and students in free/reduced lunch programs in the US to other countries from this data because the same was not done for those countries. Yet you INSIST on doing so as if the disaggregation was designed for just that purpose. The only, ONLY thing this data tells you is that in the United States there is a huge disparity between how well self-identified Blacks and Hispanics perform on these tests compared to how self-identified Whites and Asians perform on these tests. In addition, it tells you that in schools where there are less than 10% free/reduced lunch qualifiers, the test scores are almost, ALMOST as high as the average, AVERAGE student in Shanghai China (within 15 points) and just slightly above the average, AVERAGE student in Korea, Finland, Canada, and Hong Kong China. This is for READING only because this was the focus of the 2009 study. But here is an interesting tidbit. There was no discernible difference in scores for the US from the 2000 PISA despite the extreme negative effects being attributed on this blog to NCLB (just the same as how nothing got better despite NCLB). And why weren’t the math and science scores disaggregated like the reading scores?
For the record, I have never said that in the United States (or even other countries) being poor does not negatively impact test scores. What I have said is that poverty does not explain why the US underperforms when compared to other countries which also have poverty. What I have said is that even our most advantaged students are not performing at the top of the heap. What I have said is that our curriculum in the US requires, REQUIRES a huge level of parent participation (those same parents that many of you think are incompetent) either in money, time, outside tutoring or all of the above. And why do Asian-Americans pulverize the test scores of White Americans?
You want to point to the global competitiveness statistics to bolster your case. The US is ranked number 4 in the latest 2010-2011 study. In 2009-2010, they were ranked number 2. If your case is there is a direct link between quality of education and our rank, then a decrease in rank suggests education COULD be a problem and MIGHT get worse. But look at the data further. WHY are we ranked so high? See page 341 of the study. We rank 34th in the quality of our primary education, 26th in the quality of our educational system, and 52nd in the quality of our math and science education. Where we really shine brightest is in the 12th pillar which is tied in large part to our universities and research and development (innovation). You know. Those idiotic college professors who don’t know anything when they say they observe the quality (writing and math) of U.S. students entering universities as declining. Right now, US universities are still attracting students from all over the world, but some of those top performing countries are starting to retain more of their brightest students in their own universities. In fact, a Pew research study of American university presidents reported that only 19% thought the US was number 1 in higher education (surprising since US News and World Report had 14 of the top 25 universities in the US; though Great Britain had the 2nd, 4th, 5th and 6th spot) and only 7% believe it will be the best 10 years from now. You can dismiss that entirely if you want. I choose not to.
Who is the better judge of the product of the education system of K-12? The 1st grade teacher who sends his or her students off and probably never has the opportunity to teach them again or see their upper level work or the college professor who gets that student after 13 years of public education and then experiences their writing and math skills? At the college level, we have probably weeded out the poor, underprivileged students who are dodging bullets on their way to school and whose parents are shooting up heroin, meth or crack. We are talking about our best at this point. Why are our best unprepared?
Your argument reminds me of a similar argument that the automobile industry put out there for years. We are the best. We don’t need no stinkin’ economy cars. If they couldn’t convince us with that argument then they would tell us how un-American we were if we purchased foreign-made cars. It almost brought them down. It might still. They were arrogant and slow to react and now they are weak despite the fact that they have finally tried to change. Back then, the American public wanted something different. They wanted smaller, more fuel efficient cars. American automakers poo-pooed them, but acquiesced in the most condescending way possible by giving them the Pinto, the Vega, and the Gremlin. The Japanese listened. They gave us quality cars. My first Honda Accord was still running at 268,000 miles when I traded it in. The Chevy Vega’s engine warped before it hit 50,000 miles; that’s if it didn’t rust out and fall apart first..
We, Americans, are such stubborn donkeys and are so full of our superiority that we look to subvert the data rather than try and improve. We think what we have is great, the best, and we will manipulate and bend and disaggregate until we can prove it. Other countries with less propensities toward hubris decide they can improve, even if they are already doing “fine”. Meanwhile, we viciously protect the status quo by throwing out blame in all directions hoping something sticks.
If you truly believe in democracy then you have to stop being the hurdle that the majority is trying to get around or over. While teachers may not be the reason our education system is failing (yeah, I know, you don’t think it is), if the majority of teachers believe like most of the commenters on this blog, then they cannot shirk responsibility for the reason we can’t move toward improvement. Poverty is only part of the problem, but even so, it is NOT going away – not in your lifetime or mine. The old American attitude would be “this is what we have to work with now let’s roll up our sleeves and prove that we can do whatever it takes!” The new American attitude is “We can’t do any better because our students are poor. Our rich students are doing fine. Leave us alone.”
You don’t want to hear about my personal experience or that of my friends and family. You’ve made that perfectly clear. I’ve heard you. So, I reject your system to which you are clinging. I still care about you, but I can’t help you. Neither can you help me. I cannot do anything about poverty, but I can create my own classroom in the good old American tradition of “I can do anything I set my mind to.”