Responding to other comments, this teacher sent the following:
“Experience isn’t all its cracked up to be”?????? Tell that to a surgery patient.”
“Or just try saying that about the chef in a restaurant.
“After spending much of my career teaching a lot of people who thought they already knew how to teach because they spent years in classrooms as students, I cringed when I heard people like Oprah and Martha Stewart say they believe they are teachers.
“It’s a whole different ball game when you are performing and don’t need to know anything about the people in your audience, let alone interact with each one of them daily and promote their physical, cognitive and social-emotional development.
“Not to mention TFA and all the other non-educator “reformers,” out to dictate policies in our field, who think that neither experience nor formal training are necessary in education.
“Thinking you know how to teach because you were a student is like spending every day eating at your mom’s kitchen table and then declaring that you have become a master chef.
“Is there any other field people say that about –no experience or training necessary– and so easily get away with it??”
Diane Ravitch's blog 
Diane, THANK YOU!
I blogged about this recently as well, I wonder what you think?
http://askingquestionsblog.blogspot.com/2013/04/oh-those-golden-handcuffs.html
As a veteran teacher, once you leave the fold, it is IMPOSSIBLE to go back. Districts just will not pay for expertise, when they can get a 21-year old fresh from college for $30K less. And the youngster is more malleable, more willing to drink the Kool-Aid.
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And they don’t realize that in drinking the Kool-Aid that it has come from Jonestown and will have the same effect on their being/spirit (soul, if your religious).
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So sorry to learn of your plight, Andrew. Unfortunately, it is not uncommon. Ours is not a culture that typically prizes its elders for their wisdom and experience.
This lack of value placed on experience and dearth of respect for wisdom really wreaks of ageism. Does anyone know if it has been successfully argued in court that this is indicative of age discrimination?
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I see your point, but this distinction seems rhetorically a little strange. In fact, people can get jobs as chefs and surgeons right out of their training programs. They just can’t get the top administrative jobs. Similarly, we don’t usually expect that people can become school administrators with no experience in education.
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Do you want the neurosurgeon who has just passed his boards or do you want the one who has done the same procedure you’re about to undergo 100 times? Experience matters, but in the present “reform” climate, experience is deprecated instead of prized. That is the travesty that is being exposed here.
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I suspect the sweet spot for physicians is about ten years in, depending on specialty and access to innovative treatments.
Region also makes a huge difference in medical care just like education. You might check the Dartmouth Atlas of Health Care.
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One may get a chef’s job right out of training but one doesn’t become a soux chef or executive chef right out of school. One needs years of experience doing the activities of the various under-chefs:
•Patissier — or pastry chef, works with pastries and desserts only
•Chef de partie — or station chef; they’re in charge of a particular part of the kitchen
•Saucier — prepares the sauces and sautés
•Poissonier — works with seafood
•Entremetier — in charge of soups, vegetables, starches and egg dishes
•Rotisseur — cooks roasted, braised and broiled meats and gravies
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Stop it, Duane, you’re making me hungry.
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If your like me and teach, you’ll have to wait for your 22 minute alotted time slot to eat!!!
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Actually, I was addressing experience AND training. Corporate “reformers” promote hiring “teachers” from programs like TFA, TNTP, NYC Teaching Fellows, etc. who have had as little as 5 weeks of summer school training and experience. This flies in the face of expert-novice comparison research. To become an expert in virtually any field, it takes about 10 years of experience and training AND a concerted effort towards self-improvement (or many adults would be cooking like Julia Child by now). The five stages from novice to expert are:
Novice, Advanced Beginner, Competent, Proficient, Expert
Long story short, TFAers et al. who have had a single, rapid-fire summer school course are novices, plain and simple. Those who leave after 3 to 5 years MIGHT be competent, if they have worked continuously on improving their skills, but none are likely to be experts in education. Therefore, they should not be hired to fill leadership positions running schools and school districts or dictating education policies across the nation, including TFAers Michelle Rhee, John White and Kevin Huffman.
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Actually, that happens all the time, del2124. Particularly superintendents of districts who have no teaching experience but are “business” people. A superintendent in a neighboring district is a lawyer that was on the school board before he was appointed (no other people were even interviewed, I think). He’s running that district into the ground–he’s just laid off all librarians and reading specialists.
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Arne Duncan and David Coleman are prime examples of non-educators who have been appointed to positions of power and influence over education in this country. Neither was trained as an educator, including studying child and adolescent development. Hence we now have national standards that are not developmentally appropriate.
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Neither Duncan or Coleman have experience as K-12 teachers either. Both claim to have tutored kids, but I never presumed to call myself a teacher when I tutored students prior to studying education and I don’t think tutoring, which is typically 1:1, counts towards experience as a K-12 classroom teacher for them either.
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Oh, but that’s not true any more. Check out all the Broad superintendents and TFA alums who are state education superintendents. It’s rife everywhere.
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“Thinking you know how to teach because you were a student is like spending every day eating at your mom’s kitchen table and then declaring that you have become a master chef.”
Great line/comparison!!! I hope you (whoever the you is) won’t mind if I use it.
My oldest son completed chef school and currently works as a chef in a restaurant where I couldn’t even afford an appetizer on my outlandish-ha ha-teacher salary. I told him I wanted to read his textbook after he finished with it. I’m currently on about page 350 out of 1100 pages and am learning a ton of things. I liked like to think I’m a pretty decent cook but I’m certainly not a chef-huge difference! Having the knowledge and being able to be a top notch chef is a very demanding course of study and job just as is being a master teacher.
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Yes, Duane, you can use that line and any others. I wrote that last year, when my username was Chi Res, back when WordPress was not yet linked to Gravatar (I changed my name after they linked up, because I gave the wrong email address and could no longer get into my account.) Bon appetite!
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Unfortunately, the idea that anyone can teach has been around for a long time, even before 1990 and Wendy Kopp. The problem now is that money and power have decided that this myth can become a reality. David Brooks’ column in the NYT today focused on a study of word usage over the centuries.
One of the words far less frequently used? Wisdom….and as I said in my NYT letter a couple of weeks ago PRACTICAL WISDOM is what experienced teachers have to give to students of any age… Who will resurrect that word?
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David,
I believe that most people are afraid of the word “wisdom” as for most it probably implies someone like a “sage of the ages”. I agree that we must resurrect the term when combatting the inanities that the edudeformers spout.
Bits of wisdom can be found everywhere if one seeks with an open mind and listens to those, many of whom may not be “educated” have expertise in any life experience.
Duane
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The prevailing philosophy of the corporate libertarian today is that Money Trumps Reality.
That is the main reason why someone like Broad, Gates, inBloomborg, Rhee, ad nauseam can waltz into the education arena, buy themselves a bully pulpit or a billion bullhorns, and set themselves up as someone who has a clue what they are lecturing their betters on.
You know the history: There was a time when the medical profession did not have the respect they have today — though even there the insurance companies threaten to gain the upper (invisible) hand — but for the present physicians make enough money to defend themselves as a profession.
Teachers, not so much …
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As a matter of fact, in Los Angeles, the school district has been appointing people with as little as 2-3 years of teaching experience as principals. The devolution of the system in LAUSD is exacerbated by a gigantic cadre of administrators who don’t know anything about teaching. They are, however, excellent enforcers of insane District policies.
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That is the grand master plan…led by Wendy Kopp
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Having credentials will get you hired. But they aren’t always what they are cracked up to be! It is possible to be a natural born teacher. I am a homeschooling mom, and I am perfectly capable of overseeing the education of my children. But I would never expect to be hired to work as a teacher at a school, without having to spend a lot of time and effort to prove my capabilities! Getting credentials would make it easier for me, should I ever want to pursue a career in education. Not everyone can teach, and not everyone should be a parent either! But it in the free country, I thank God I have the opportunity to use my God-given gifts to raise my children and oversee their education first hand. I also thank God for the wonderful, trained, and dedicated teachers that pour their lives into the children of this nation.
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I would like to commend the teachers in Oklahoma for their heroism. I think that other people in other jobs would do the same, but I know that teachers will do whatever it takes to keep their children safe and secure. Teachers have an obligation to their students to keep them safe and secure, and we take that seriously. Even if it means our own safety. There are times when teaching is a high risk job. Protecting our students from tornadoes, from people with guns, etc. Yet, many are not paid the way others are paid in high risk jobs. Children are irreplaceable, yet the teachers who care for them and make sure they are safe, are taken for granted. I am angry that people who produce products make more than teachers. All that they make can be reproduced. I know that those parents in Oklahoma know how valuable those teachers who saved their children’s lives, are valuable.
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Dottie: thank you.
🙂
For examples of what you are writing about, click on the two links below to Fred Klonsky’s blog re Oklahoma teachers.
Link: http://preaprez.wordpress.com/2013/05/21/why-i-love-teachers-and-am-proud-to-call-myself-one/
Link: http://preaprez.wordpress.com/2013/05/21/just-laying-my-body-on-top-of-as-many-kids-as-i-could-what-kind-of-person-would-actually-vote-to-put-children-in-a-danger-zone/
In the second link, a teacher describes how she protected her student by “just laying my body on top of as many kids as I could to help out.”
When someone describes risking life and limb to just “help out” OTHER PEOPLE’S CHILDREN there is a good chance you are talking about a teacher.
I will end with something that perhaps no teacher would feel comfortable saying. But hey, KrazyTA has been known to back up a teacher now and again…
I have slowly come to the realization that the immense disdain that the edufrauds [thanks, Linda!] display towards teachers is nothing but the public face of what they try to hide in the innermost recesses of their hearts: a bitter envy of those that try to make education a reality for the vast majority of our nation’s children. And just what is education?
“Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire” [William Butler Yeats].
When you have nothing but the wet matches of ineffective masking tape to motivate, when you are incapable of filling even a measuring cup with whatever it is that VAM quantifies—how comfortable are you knowing that others are lighting the fires that students will carry around for the rest of their lives called “the joy of learning”?
So you do what the edubullies do. You attempt to tear down professionals and their profession. Nothing makes a bully feel bigger than making the victims feel smaller.
Newtown and Oklahoma are reminders of what teachers do and who they are. You are bigger and better than those who are beating you down. Push back. And if you feel a little hesitant to do it for yourselves because you’re still stuck on being overly modest, just remember who you are really doing it for:
“[J]ust laying my body on top of as many kids as I could to help out.”
Most Krazy props to y’all.
🙂
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Wonderfully stated, KTA!
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The last thing my principal said to me on my last moment leaving the building to retire was, “Thank you for your wisdom.” That was an interesting final note, coming from her. But, I think she knew what the future would bring.
In any case, the comparisons that have been made to the levels of becoming a chef aren’t entirely parallel to the progression of becoming an educational administrator. The truth is, many principals and administrators go directly from their degree to their position, without knowing anything about what teaching is like in the trenches. I do believe this is a problem within the educational heirarchy. Businesses have learned that just having an MBA doesn’t guarantee that the person will know how to “manage” just any situation. The sa.me is true with administration in schools. Teachers have a lot of trouble having confidence in someone who hasn’t taught in the past 5 years, amidst the real changes that have been going on. They lack empathy. The business model that has been used to justify the changes, including testing, take away the time of principals and administrators to be acutally engaged with the students. Their expectations are ridiculous, partially because their directives are ridiculous.
Testing will not fix the perceived problems. Having head teachers who engage each other and work cooperatively will create success. Collaboration within a school will work better than competition. Real educators care about educating students other than their own class, own school, own community. Guidance, yes. Competition, no.
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Deb,
Not sure how it is where you are (Ohio?) but here in Missouri the requirement to be a public school principal was to have taught at least five years, get a Masters in education administration and take a certifying test (which up till 98 was a two day practicum graded by former administrators, very lifelike and the feedback was excellent. Now its an eight hour sit down writing test and they may have even scaled that back). It’s all done through the certified universities now.
Unfortunately I think they’ve cut back the required years of teaching to three, not sure though.
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They have to have experience teaching. But, many of them have been outside of the classroom so long that they have no idea of the current realities. They attempt to evaluate teachers and haven’t experienced the difficultes of their demands. Often their demands are dictated by others who are out of touch. They need to be required to be a part of the teaching staff and be evaluated on THEIR skills. The show Undercover Boss illustrates how out of touch bosses can be. And, if they don’t know what they are asking of employees, they need to be made aware. It is difficult to respect someone if you feel their words are worthless.
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Deb. How hard it must be to criticize someone about a skill one doesn’t have, yet that is how the system is presently built.
Duane, check how easily those laws are avoided then changed state by state. NY first?
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Teacher education programs need to do a better job of screening potential teachers for their programs, and not simply give a teaching certificate to anyone who is willing to do the seat time and pay the money. Admin and unions need to work together to serve as mentors to new teachers and make sure that no one gets a professional certificate who doesn’t demonstrate after the first few years that they are capable. I recently mentored a student teacher out of a program, and convinced the university that this individual was NOT cut out to be in a classroom, despite the fact that the individual had already written a doctoral dissertation. (Interestingly enough I didn’t get paid anything for my work with this student teacher, and it was the most challenging student teacher I have ever mentored!) It was a tough thing to do, but I KNOW in my heart that I did what was right for this individual, and also what was right for public education. Not everyone is cut out to do the job and do it well. We need good leaders at all levels including the folks teaching in teacher prep programs to take responsibility for the process of identifying who “can”, and who “can’t” and make it a priority if we are going to continue to have great public schools in this country.
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At Miami University in Oxford, OH, the teacher ed program introduced a PEP program. Students who enter the teaching field have all kinds of opportunities to sample the teaching experience prior to spending all that tuition on becoming a teacher. They have experiences that let them, the mentoring teacher, and the professors know whether the student is a “good fit” for this occupation prior to getting a teaching degree. They have time to switch majors. I think this is a good thing. They began this program in 1978.
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Well, I am probably the least likely soul to have entered the arena of education. I hated school and everything it implied- child of the sixties. I fought hard about my parents conformity – the 50s – and yes, I was a child of “flower power” These were things that I so “whole heartedly” believed in…we bucked the system. we stood up to the false claims of the politicos. Come and get if you want, but I now teCH US history to juniors and seniors in high school and I tell it like I saw it and witnessed it growing up int he sixties. Chose me or someone who read about this in a book?
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I’m laughing, because, I, too, was like you. The LEAST likely to enter education, for all of the reasons you listed.
Lo and behold, I’m now a high school history teacher as well. Very much like you in the sense that we experienced all of those events that are now in the history books- the Vietnam War, Watergate, the assassinations of JFK, RFK, MLK, etc.
Yes, experience very much counts in teaching. Personally, I would rather have someone who witnessed and lived through those events rather than someone that read about them in a book. Just not the same…..
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While it’s true that a doctor might be hired as a surgeon right out of medical school or a pilot right out of flight school, whose hands would you rather place your life in – the doctor for whom you are his/her first patient or one that has actually done brain surgery a few times? The pilot whose maiden flight you are on or the one with a few thousand flight miles on record? In the end, teaching requires practitioners at every level of experience to operate balanced schools.
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I would not recommend hiring an attorney without at least a few years experience either. I thought I was lucky to have had a relative who passed the bar exam and was in his first job when something came up and I needed a pro bono lawyer asap. My confidence in him soon crumbled, as I began to feel like I knew more about applicable law than he did. The judge seemed to be helping my relative “lawyer” along in court. My relative said the judge was known to be a real stickler, but I thought he was being rather patient and helpful in guiding this young kid. I felt very lucky to have won the case, thanks to the judge.
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The title of the section caught my eye. “Why Does Experience Matter in Every Field But Teaching”. I would say not simply experience, but also the appropriate education and training. There is a move away from professionalization- I’m sure part of it is so people can be hired “on the cheap”. I also think part of the reason is to keep the workforce compliant. If a worker has not invested the time and effort to obtain the needed education and training, the worker is less likely to stand up for the principles of the profession.
I am a librarian now (not in a school) and the editor of Library Journal recently disparaged his time earning his Master of Library Science. He advocated on the job training. Librarians are not just people who like to read- we are professionals who dedicate our careers to providing our patrons with the information they seek. The MLS shows our committment to our job and is a signal to society that we are professionals who take our job seriously.
That said, apprenticeship programs are a reasonable way to advance in a profession. But the program must include assistance with tuition, mentoring and time off for study. Anything less is just hiring “on the cheap” and locking people into dead-end jobs.
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