Mayor Bloomberg believes that having a high-quality teacher is crucial, and most people would agree with him.
Mayor Bloomberg also thinks that class size is unimportant, and most parents and teachers would disagree with him.
In the past, he said that he would be happy if he could double the class size and double teachers’ salaries, thus guaranteeing a “great” teacher in every classroom.
But here is the unknown: Would a teacher who is “effective” with a class of 24 be equally effective with a class of 48?
On his weekly radio show, he said today:
“I got in trouble every time I say this. But I would do anything to have better quality teachers, even if it meant bigger class size, even if it meant them standing rather than sitting. That’s what really makes a difference. That human being that looks the student in the eye, adjusts the curriculum based on instinct what’s in the child’s interest.”
So, his ideal would be a classroom so crowded that the children were standing because there were not enough chairs for them. And somehow, the teacher–with 48 or 60 or 70 or 80 children in her class–would be able to look every student in the eye and adjust the curriculum based on her instinct about what was in that child’s interest.
There is a disconnect here. The mayor, who is now spending big money to spread his educational vision to Los Angeles and Louisiana, does not seem to understand that having a super-large class makes it impossible for the teacher to look each student in the eye–even when they are standing, not sitting–and know what is in the student’s best interest. What he wants to happen is more likely to happen in a classroom with 20 or fewer students, not in an overcrowded classroom.
If only he had some experienced educators who were advising him!
Diane Ravitch's blog 
Would he want his child in a class of 40 or more? My guess is no.
His own children went to an elite private school with class sizes of 14-16 or so. He is talking about OPC (“other people’s children”).
Of course not. He’s entitled to better things than you are.
Does he realize it is impossible to look 80 children in the eye, let alone adjust curriculum to meet their needs? What’s wrong with him?
Maybe he could lead a class, but he would need a stool or stilts so he could see their eyes. Then he could pass out hundred dollar bills so they would listen to his whiny voice.
Tee hee, because he’s short!
And a weenie!
I wish he would stop insisting that he speak Spanish in public.
He doesn’t mean eye … he means iPad …
Yes, there is even a visual of the Joel Klein Amplify technocrap where the kids are lined up in desks looking at devices (prior to this pix the kids are lined up in desks looking at books or their teacher, so looking at the device is progress).
Anyway, there is a notation that the teacher can send a message to teach device telling them to look up as compared to the status quo way of actually speaking to them.
How revolutionary…..how reformy!
Typo…to each device.
It would be impossible to look 40 children in the eye . . .
Bloomborg Says —
Re-sittance is futile … You will be e-simulated …
Want he wants even more is the popularity among certain circles for saying things like this even when what he says is completely ludicrous.
Do you think he really believes that? How can anyone?
I did my student teaching in the math department of a large urban high school here. We had a unique situation there with how we did the Algebra 1 classes. They were made up of kids that had failed it at least one time, sometimes two or three times. (And that was only the first of four math classes required for high school graduation in our state.) We did team teaching of those classes. In one class, we had close to 70 students, but we had five teachers, including myself. Another class had 45 kids and three teachers.
One teacher would be up front teaching, while the others would help with class management, answer questions, take some students aside to the back of the room, and so on. We would trade off who did the warm-up, who took attendance, who did the first part of the lesson, etc. At lunch time, all of us teaching Algebra 1 would eat lunch together. We’d talk about how best to teach the next day’s lesson, what misunderstandings to watch for, and adjust the lesson accordingly. We would grade quizzes and tests together also. Oh, and we all met with our school’s staff development person once for more insight into doing this kind of team teaching.
I couldn’t imagine doing either of those classes by myself, even now with more years of teaching experience.
Wow, would you ever have been trashed by an evaluator using Marzano or Danielson.
The teacher doing Classroom management, would not have clearly stated the objectives in the required form. – Unsatisfactory
The days lead teacher would not have unobtrusively “corrected behaviors” of the students with their heads on their desks (at least you had desks, not being in Bloomingidiot land yet). Unsatisfactory.
The teacher doing “pullouts” for special help was not differentiating instruction, he was only addressing the needs of the two kids he took aside. Unsatisfactory.
Lunchtime meetings don’t count. You have to participate in structured “PLC” meetings, professional learning communities, after school. Professional development – Unsatisfactory – all of you.
If this sounds a little farfetched – tragically it is not. Special ed teachers in fused classrooms are getting downgraded by evaluators everyday for just theses reasons.
And who is doing all this evaluating and superfluous policy making? Yes, our unaccountable and highly paid administrators–and the beat goes on . . .
Holy cow you hit the nail on the head. That is exactly how the Danielson bs works. It is also evaluated by some unknown person who has never met the teacher nor walked in their classroom. (This is using the lucy 360 camera to record the lesson and then sent off to an evaluator). It is just like big brother. VERY STRANGE. I’ve had experience with this and I can say it is a complete waste of time and it offers no help to the teacher.
This is code-talk for cyber schools, firing everyone but the Mythical Übertechers, who will be paid a little more, at first (promotional period only), to multiply their reach through distance teach-knowledgey..
yes, that’s right. Bloomberg, Emanuel, Jindahl, Duncan, Vander Ark, Jeb Bush — the whole greedy gang talks this way.
Firing masses of teachers is the only way school districts can afford to spend, spend, spend on the new charter school buildings, the technology infrastructure, online curriculum, and over-priced iPads.
This is how you “personalize” instruction — by raising the teacher:student ration to 45 to 1, or higher.
I once commented on an article on Jay P. Greene’s blog (http://jaypgreene.com). He is in the “reform” crowd. Someone responded back by talking about how schools in Asia have as many as 60-80 students in a class.
Here’s the problem: The “reformers” and many of those in the public who agree with them say that class size doesn’t matter. Then they send their own children to private schools that advertise their small teacher-student ratios, or even better, homeschool their children.
It’s just another episode of “That’s fine…but not in my neighborhood.”
Teacher111: you expertly applied the “skin in the game” test to the edubullies and found them wanting. Examples abound. To wit…
Just a week ago, on 22 February 2013, Diane posted an entry on this blog called “What the Best and Wisest Parent Wants for His Child…” Not surprisingly, turns out that Sandy Kress as a parent lauds his children’s private school, a school that offers an educational experience/environment quite different from what Sandy Kress as a lobbyist for Pearson, architect of NCLB, and all-around edubully advocates for OPC [other people’s children].
I have no doubt he and the other leaders of the charterite/privatizer movement rest easy at night. And why shouldn’t they? They are guaranteeing their children—and those of their colleagues, peers and employers—every advantage that money can buy and connections can make. From their point of view, what’s not to like?
The only fly in the ointment is the reaction of people like, well, most of those who post on this blog. As in, the vast majority who don’t feel this country needs to continue emulating the stultifying class and caste hierarchies of the past.
I repeat here the quotation from John Dewey that Diane featured on her blog posting: “What the best and wisest parent wants for his child, that must we want for all the children of the community. Anything less is unlovely, and left unchecked, destroys our democracy.”
He was right then. He is right now.
Dewey is a crock.
HU,
Dems fighin words!
Have you read any Dewey. If so what are your concerns/beefs with what he has written?
Duane
I guarantee the people talking about what goes on in Asia have never visited the schools there. There is no Asia miracle. They aren’t going to overtake us. As hard as it is to believe that things could be more convoluted and f’d up than they are for us now–they are on the track to stay subservient if we can stay solvent.
They kick students out. They hit students. The good schools for the rich have small class sizes. Basically, the blissful ignorance of our general population allows these people to make things up and soon enough it is repeated as fact.
How many PD sessions have you been in where the end to concerns is someone in admin or a coach or consultant saying ‘the research shows’ when they don’t have any research, or the research is shoddy and biased? It happens to me all of the time. When I ask for the links of the studies, I never get anything. Most people must be dumb enough to genuflect every time someone mentions ‘research.’
When I hear the phrase “the research shows” I immediately know I am hearing bullshit. Like you I have done the same in asking for said research and the results are the same. And when I give them valid “research” that contradicts what they are saying I get no response nor acknowledgement. “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it”. Upton Sinclair
Gotta love Upton Sinclair! Although, a lot of people never paid attention to “Elmer Gantry.” And I am a Believer.
Yes, & to whoever responded about Asian class sizes–you are comparing a highly diverse population to a homogeneous population (Asia). No way can a diverse population be taught in numbers of 60-80!
Anyone who seeks to have a say in how public schools operate must have significant experience as a public school teacher … PERIOD. This should be a standard operating procedure, not open to debate. When a non-educator, like Mayor Bloomberg, makes an educational suggestion, he should be shunned. Otherwise, you get obsurd suggestions like Bloomberg’s. Unbelieveable!
I would believe these people more if they weren’t such a bundle of contradictions, in this particular case wanting excellent teachers yet using TFA in so many classes. Where is the logic?
Astonishing that people who have no real idea of what we do day in and day out–well, you know whats next. . .
I was in a lot of over crowded classes in the 50s and 60s, so the class size averages I’ve read about for that period never applied in my experiences. However, the worst was my high school General Science class of nearly 70 students. There were never enough seats and the teacher spent a lot of time trying to locate more sets most days. Expecting students to stand all period, especially students who are at-risk, is just ridiculous.
I don’t think my teacher was able to remember each of our names, let alone know what was each “child’s interest.” He seemed to try very hard to deal effectively with that hot mess, but no one can spread themselves that thin and perform optimally.
It’s preposterous to believe that class size does not impact teacher effectiveness. How many of the so-called “reformers” who say that class size doesn’t matter have chosen to have only 2 or 3 children themselves??? It’s difficult to believe they really have no clue.
Wow, Cosmic, & you are talking about a kinder, gentler era when intact families still ate dinner together and parents made their kids do homework at the kitchen table, under their supervision, and before the advent of video games, the Internet, text messaging and readily viewable movie and TV violence.
Oh–I almost forgot–the days described by Cosmic also included parents who actually believed teachers, as in, their child(ren) did something naughty at school, thus was reprimanded/punished in some way. The parents’ reply? “What did YOU do to get into trouble?” and giving the child(ren) an at-home, punishment, as well.
These days, the parent would come to school/call the school (see recent NYC Educator post for an example) to ream the teacher out, and the TEACHER would be the one to get into trouble! Sigh.
Those were the days. (Additionally, the parents would have their child(ren) write an apology note or verbally apologize, with a statement that he/she/they would never do it again.)
And I went to school with a lot of kids who were at-risk. The dynamic differed then though. Students were held accountable for doing their work and, yes, parents respected and backed teachers.
Ah the days when the professional judgment of teachers was valued and respected, when teachers were trusted to know what and how to teach and how to grade student work. Teachers were not expected to use rubrics and write lengthy feedback to “justify a grade” then, as another poster mentioned here.
I’ve been teaching since the late sixties, so I know very well that teachers must make a lot of judgment calls throughout their day. I definitely prefer the era when our professional judgments were trusted, valued and respected.
I hear the mayor may be a candidate in an election in Rome in a few weeks .. the winner will be infallible with no term limits.
Bloomburg has no business telling anyone anything about education considering his total failure over the years. Why would someone want to spread failed policies unless that was the purpose in the first place? It is all about privatization and remember who Bloomburg really is and that is WALL STREET.
This man is a buffoon who should have more sense than to make such comments as students should stand. He obviously has not taught any child. No matter the age, all students need their up and down time.
Agreed, but why are the education buffoons taking over?
Follow the money…his and his cohorts’. Watch as they break unions and pave the way for profiteering on the public’s dime. It’s the same story everywhere–and (to quote Elton John/Bernie Taupin) it’s getting more and more absurd.
If he wants that so badly, he should send the children of NYC to the Philippines. He’ll find the class sizes that he’s looking for; he’ll find children and teachers without enough places to sit. Somehow, that method hasn’t done much for the Philippines, but if the King wants to go 3rd world, I wish the kids luck.
Mr. Bloomberg is just oh so insightful, intelligent, informed, and exquisitely sensitive in this matter.
It would be interesting to speculate that if he ever needed open heart surgery, perhaps the mayor would like to crowd himself into an operating room of 45 or so patients, all anesthetized, and all awaiting critical procedures to be done by, voila, a single highest-quality, state-of-the-art surgeon.
Under Mr. Billionaire-in-a-bubble’s notion, I’m sure the surgeon would be thrilled to accept such an assignment for, let’s say, double his fee per patient. Although, given this analogy, the mayor may be far more likely to need his head operated on rather than a by-pass.
Michael Doom-berg is best left to crunch numbers on Wall Street, and should abdicate his throne as soon as possible . . .
What I found most interesting is that he said the teacher should be making these differentiation calls based on “instinct.”
Huh?
Don’t these reformers think everything should be driven by data?
Only their teachers can use instinct. The rest of us have to wallow in meaningless data.
Yeah, that stood out to me, too. I wonder if it’s TFAers her’s referring to, since their five week training is so short they’d pretty much have to rely on instinct, not expertise, to be able to teach classes that large.
It struck me, too. I used to rely, heavily, on my instincts. My kids fight a lot, so my lesson plans were often subject to a great deal of improvisation, based on the moment.
We don’t have the freedom to work off of instinct, anymore. The guidelines set by the data driven model are too strict. If you vary and are caught at it, you can be subject to disciplinary action.
He’s just completely lost it on this stuff.
Then there is the Exeter model with no more than 13 students to a Harkness table and one teacher who doesn’t exactly teach, but poses problems and listens in as the students work together to solve the problem (this is in math class). I have only seen one teacher who had the dynamism to engage a room of 80 students in a discussion, but he was a college teacher at the University of Michigan named Austin Warren. I have seen a couple of high school teachers (my colleagues) who could handle a conversation with some 25 students, and one public school teacher Jeff Kass at Pioneer HS in Ann Arbor who could hold a lecture court of 60 or so. It is a rare skill. Not everyone who would be a good teacher in a small group has the theatrical charisma to hold big groups. Even Mortimer Adler in his televised series The Great Ideas, didn’t attempt more than 17 or 18 I think. I would have been willing to try for double the salary, but then I’m an inveterate ham.
Ann Arbor is one of the highest performing districts in Michigan. It’s ave ACT scores are around 23 or 24. That tells me that almost all of the students are high performing. It might be possible to do that in senior level classrooms with college bound kids. I don’t think it is a realistic model in high school where schools are liable student behavior, etc. I would prefer to have my kid in a small class any day of the week.
Yes, it’s very different when you’re talking about college students and highly motivated or high performing high school kids versus at-risk kids students with little motivation or who are likely to be disruptive.
In one of my large high school classes (with about 60 kids), the teacher, who was young and new, had no control over the class. I was constantly teased and bullied by a group of kids and she seemed to not notice that was happening to me every day. The only thing I learned in that class was to develop a think skin and duck and cover when those kids eventually beat me up in front of the school.
“Not everyone who would be a good teacher in a small group has the theatrical charisma to hold big groups.”
Music teachers do it every day in middle and high school. I used to run middle school band rehearsals with 110 students. Granted, they were all doing something at the same time, and I was able to “hear” their work which is much easier to manage when a teacher needs to see each individual’s work. However, during some parts of the rehearsal, they would not be playing while others were.
Discipline problems often arise when students think they are idle. In the performing arts, students are taught to never waste time. They learn to respect others’ learning spaces and, through time, acquire the discipline to mind how their own parts fit in with those of other performers. When the director is working with others, students are encouraged to use the time to review their parts silently while listening to what others are doing. We often have students learn each others’ parts on their own instruments on-the-spot in an effort to keep them all engaged and to help those who are struggling to solve a musical problem. This strategy also works in choral environments. There is always something to learn, and the quicker learners appreciate the challenge of trying a different part on-the-fly. Those who are struggling get learning support from the whole team which strengthens their experience-levels. It’s teamwork and citizenship–a great example of a strong and fruitful social structure.
Every student should have the opportunity to learn these skills–they are applicable citizen skills. And yes, children as young as five can be taught this respectful behavior by teachers with the patience and commitment to do so. I have spent a great deal of my teaching time modeling and fostering these behaviors in the elementary music classroom. When I moved to middle school, I found student audiences to be very respectful of student performances. Was it because of our “audience skills” component in the curriculum? Perhaps. Yes, audience learn passively, but there is something to be said about learning within the environment instead of staying in one’s one little world. I think this is the crux of the “public vs. private” argument: Some folks haven’t learned the discipline of respecting other citizens’ dispositions, so they want to only do what they think is best for them, everyone else be damned.
It’s not a coincidence that some of our strongest pro-public education voices happen to be those of music teachers. Music teachers live these “citizenship lessons” everyday, and so do their students.
(Yeesh, sorry for all the typos.)
Good point about college classes, Harlan. And all of you–look back on your extremely large lecture hall classes at public universities–didn’t a large number of you fall asleep during the lectures? (I know I did!) What saved us all from failing those courses were the 3x/week follow-up classes taught by the T.A.s.
Ours had no more that 20-25 students, tops. Lots of lively discussion, Q-&-A a la the Socratic method. Can you picture the lecture halls of today (&, not to mention, high school or middle school classes of 60-80), what with the texting & Internet surfing during class? Yeah, right, Bloomberg.
He is an evil, evil man. I have 30 fifth graders and grading hw is a huge task what with having to write elaborate comments to justify a grade. He is so out of touch, it’s scary! Yet his daughters attended private schools where I’m sure the class size didn’t surpass 16!
I am so tired of this man having an open forum about education. He is allowed to get on tv and proclaim to be an expert on just about everything. What he is saying is nothing less than stupid.
The worst lately is Charlie Rose who has had Rhee, Khan, Bloomerg and Gates on lately, and giving them all the softest, kindest questions. Rose never once mentioned the testing scandal to Rhee, the attrition rate among online learners to Khan, and nothing substantial about education to Gates /Bloomberg.
Rose is the worst. And I understand PBS needs the funding — but its coverage is a complete joke now.
+5000 DeeDee. It’s like a terrible TV show that we’re not allowed to turn off.
Interesting that he used the word “instinct” and not “data”.
When you don’t actually know what you are talking about, it is difficult to keep your talking points straight.
If Mayor Bloomberg and his like-minded reformers really wanted to effect a in change public education they would be talking about SES and not about teacher quality. Maybe some low quality teachers infected our schools years ago but not today or even 10 years ago. Too many students are coming to school with needs that really can’t be effectively addressed in public schools. Or if they want to do social engineering in our public schools then they would be displaying an entirely different set of spending preferences, i.e., funds to the classroom instead of funds for consultants, more admins, distance learning contracts, and more testing. This reform effort is obscene, entirely self-serving, and will ultimately prove destructive to most of us. It truly is time for mass protest.
Let Bloomberg teach a class of 25 thirteen year olds, then let him teach a class of 50 thirteen year olds and we’ll see if he still thinks this is such an effective way to teach children. Throw off the student/teacher ratio too much and it becomes an exercise in crowd control and little else. Last year after the Florida Legislature overturned the class size amendment for 2/3 of Florida classrooms I had a class of 54. It took me 30 minutes just to take attendance. http://kafkateach.wordpress.com/2012/05/27/class-size-matters
Politicians are accustomed to speaking to large crowds, briefly, and being the center of attention of people who choose to be there. For any real comparison with schools, people like Bloomberg should be assigned daily to a captive audience of low income, high needs adolescents with no choice but to attend that class. Have him do that for several months before doubling the class size and then he might get a glimpse at real life in low income, high needs classrooms.
It’s just so much easier for politicians to blame teachers for the low performance of poor children than it is for them to make any real effort to fix poverty. The kind of money Bloomberg and his billionaire buddies have could go a long way towards reducing poverty by creating jobs programs with livable wages for these poor kids’ parents.
Oh, and no cameras should ever be allowed in classrooms with politicians. Those photo ops change the dynamics entirely, so politicians don’t ever see what it’s like when high-risk kids are not on their best behavior.
Tell us more about creating jobs programs with livable wages for these poor kids’ parents. I don’t disagree, but if you align yourself with President Obama, then you have to admit that he is doing the exact opposite of what is needed in this country to “create” jobs. If you didn’t vote for Obama, then I withdraw my request.
I’m very disappointed in Obama, so he did not earn my vote again in the last election.
My sister’s son just decided which Catholic high school he will attend this fall. Now, my sister strongly believes in a a Catholic education for her kids. I support her decision. She also believes in paying taxes to support local public schools in her Chicago suburb. Private schooling is a choice for which she is willing to pay. She told me the school he will attend has smaller class sizes than the other he was considering & that will be a good thing for him. When I told her the education reformers say class size doesn’t matter her response was b#$@:hit!
Should she have a voucher to help her pay for the Catholic education?
NO!
The mayor needs to come into a HS class these days and get order. Tell a student to sit and the student replies “Don’t tell me what to do.” And that is just the beginning. I love your “OPC”. I bet most of the reformers are discussing OPC.
What makes me so angry is that these “reformers” know very well what a good school is. Just look up the elite schools attended by Bloomberg and his cronies. While it is true that not every child in America can attend the exclusive Spence School, we can certainly take steps to move in that direction.
Diane reminded us of that perfect quote from John Dewey “What the best and wisest parent wants for his child is what we should want for every child in the community. Anything less is unlovely and destructive to our democracy.” (or something to that effect) Once we accept this truth, and act on it, we’ll begin to see the improvement that we all want.
Realize Bloomberg’s ridiculous statements about class size are not supposed to make sense. He’s juxtaposes this dumb, unpopular idea with a popular idea- quality teachers and conflates one with the other. Now, a really dumb idea is “out there” for the serious reformers to debate. I can hear Jonathan Alter and Mike -segregation-is great- Petrelli now spewing this misinformation- ‘Studies show class sizes don’t matter if…’
This is a game of illusion and delusion and the corporate reformers want to win it.
One of the reasons I decided to teach Special Ed kids with emotional problems over General Ed classes was class size. Not just because Special Ed allows for smaller class settings, either. It was because there were a good number of kids in those larger, unsupported General Ed classes who could easily have been in Special Ed. They just hadn’t been referred, yet.
General Ed schools are strongly discouraged from referring students, nowadays. So you’ve got plenty of kids with weak social skills and violent tendencies, staying in the General Ed classrooms.
Anyone who’s familiar with students like this will know just how ridiculous the concept of STANDING in a crowded classroom for long periods of time (much less, sitting) really is. The potential for violent protests is so much higher.
His quote displays his ignorance…especially when you consider that he’s said it before and is still sticking with it, publicly. And, of course, there’s the not so underlying message that a large percentage of teachers are ineffective, at best. If he doubles class size, that means he wants to fire 1/2 of us.
I so hope our next mayor cedes control of the DOE back to a more accountable version of the Board of Education, with it’s representatives from each borough. Yes, there was plenty of corruption in that setup…but there’s been a very healthy dose of corruption in the current DOE structure, as well. One man or woman should not be allowed the kind of control that mayor Bloomberg has abused, the past 11+ years.
And don’t forget to give credit where credit is due, gitapik: Response to Intervention (R.T.I.).
Plus–is there NO end to the nefarious ideas of Bloomberg? He had me at the breast feeding vs. baby formula debacle. BUT–NOT to forget his refusal to call off the NYC Marathon in the wake of Hurricane Sandy (yes–better idea to use those generators for the marathon rather than for the Sandy victims).
Oy vey iss meir!!!!
This is off thread, but did anyone see that PBS show about American women? I came home late & missed the first half but caught the second. I was HORRIFIED to see/hear Michelle Rhee, who was being used as an example of illustrious, America-building women (Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan and Hillary Clinton were three interviewed). So goes PBS…
Ugh. So glad I miss that. Sorry I did not miss this: Progress Stalled, “this month, a report determined that the most common job for women remains secretary.” http://billmoyers.com/groupthink/the-feminine-mystique-50-years-later/progress-stalled/