A reader writes in response to a post last night about Diana Senechal’s article on Big Ideas in education. I added that many of the Big Ideas today are driven by the profit motive, and Diana wrote to say that she did not make that point. I did. This reader shares his or her experience with the way profit changes education:
“Yes, your article did not emphasize how the profit motive has skewed what is valued in education today. I value Liberal Arts, but I’m glad Diane mentioned this, because it really needs to be stated and underscored, over and over again, since it’s not just Liberal Arts that are under-valued by today’s profit-driven “reformers”; teachers are not valued either.
“Teachers have no idea how bad it can get for them when profit drives education. Look to higher ed to see what’s been happening to teachers there:
“After teaching for decades (5 years at my current school), this week, I was given a contract indicating that, starting next month, I will be paid $200 per 16 week course. Yes, I am to be paid $12.50 per week. My contract also indicated that I will not be receiving this insulting, unlivable pay until the semester ends, after 4 months. This is a school that just went from being a non-profit to being a for-profit. No faculty members qualify for minimum wage or unemployment compensation either, because 100% of us were hired on a semester basis, so we’re not even really considered employees and we have no benefits or protections whatsoever.
“Profiteers have all kinds of “big ideas” up their sleeves which are intended to serve only their own benefit, and as long as the government allows it, they will continue to exploit whomever they can. So don’t think that being asked to teach for 16 weeks at the pay rate of $12.50 per week could never happen to you, because it just happened to hundreds of teachers at my school.”
Diane Ravitch's blog 
“So don’t think that being asked to teach for 16 weeks at the pay rate of $12.50 per week could never happen to you, because it just happened to hundreds of teachers at my school.”
Outrageous! Can this school and/or school district be revealed to us?
If our folks in the media were doing their job, these predatory practices would be shut down.
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When asked to do that, the obvious thing to do is say no.
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And do exactly what instead? Be one of those “free loaders” on public assistance (which, by the way, is only available for a limited period now anyway?
Choice is great, except when you don’t have any.
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Thank you for recognizing this matter. Last year, due to administrative issues with our prior owners, our enrollment declined and course assignments were cut. We don’t qualify for unemployment, because employers don’t have to pay into that for independent contractors. So, I fell behind in my rent and faced eviction, I applied for public assistance and was told that I did not qualify. Then I applied to a homelessness prevention program and was told I didn’t qualify for that either. We do not have safety nets for everyone. The only thing that saved me was borrowing from a friend and a second job. I’m trying to find a third job.
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Almost anything.
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Spoken like a true economist. In other words, totally divorced from the realities faced by people in actual labor markets.
It’s reminiscent of the Anatole France quote, in which he states that the majesty of the law forbids both the rich and poor from sleeping under bridges.
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This person is teaching in higher Ed, so possibly a Ph.D., at least an MA. Two hours a week as a Walmart greater or perhaps babysitting a couple hours a week would provide more income. If this is a job that required the teacher to actually go to a classroom, that salary might not even pay the transportation costs, so quitting might actually save this teacher money.
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And so you turned the offer down, right? But why didn’t you identify the school?
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I am curious about the name of the school as well. To pay such a low wage is untenable in he long run, so I can only guess that the school wanted to “clean house” by getting rid of all long term employees.
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I find this hard to believe without concrete evidence or identity of the institution.
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I agree with the other comments. We need to know the details.
“60 Minutes” on TV ran a story where the teachers had to kick back 40% of their pay at a charter school.
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There are no long term faculty at my school, just senior administration. In its last iteration as a non-profit school, conditions were never ideal, as we were owned by a for-profit company that hired 90% of the faculty as independent contractors and then, in their final chapter, they went to hiring fully 100% of faculty as independent contractors, (i.e., All faculty were hired on a per term basis, every six weeks. in our 18 week semesters.) This practice effectively circumvents labor laws, including minimum wage, by not classifying faculty as employees.
The new owners that made the school a for-profit enterprise have turned our already abysmal pay for each 6 week term into our pay for the new 16 week semesters that they mandated we change to in January.
Teachers with union protections would talk to a union steward if they have issues like this, before considering identifying the people or school involved to the public, We are not unionized, so our first step is to try to address this matter internally, between representatives of faculty senate and the new ownership, and it makes no sense to out anyone now.
Please see my comments on the original page, as I don’t have time to respond more at this point: https://dianeravitch.net/2012/12/28/on-the-transiency-of-big-ideas-in-education/
And, no, I have not signed my contract.
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I guess you use comments like this to scare your readers into fearing change. Profits have been a part of education for decades. Ask a major textbook publisher about the monopoly profits they extract from K-12 education. There is a lot of misinformation and paranoia being communicated here, and all that this reformer sees are the byproducts of a system which has been running inefficiently for decades. The teachers are feeling the adverse side effects of a system that has been mismanaged and as a result, they have had to cut because they are not scaled for a 21st century digitally driven world.
Folks like myself and Mike Petrilli could go on and on about the SUCCESSFUL public charter schools that operate at a fraction of the cost per pupil of a traditional public school. But you just point to the outliers as evidence that public charter schools are corrupt. Where’s the shutdown scenario for a failing traditional school? It is much harder to shut one of those down than a public charter school that has specific performance targets that need to be met.
Comments such as the ones you post should not be used to complain about profits – they should be targeted at the education leaders and policy makers to show evidence that schools are squandering the funds they receive, and taking them out on the teachers who do the most important work in a child’s academic life – or at least that’s how they’re supposed to be perceived.
Show me real evidence instead of letters from these poor teachers who end up getting the brunt of the pain from a poorly run education system!
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There will always be profits for publishers of tests and textbooks and for companies that sell hardware, software, pencils, paper, and other supplies.
But face it, what is unprecedented is the new idea that profiteers own a college or a school or a chain of schools. Taxpayer dollars are being put in the pockets of stockholders and investors, not in the classroom.
Frankly, that stinks.
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Diane,
This guy? Mike Petrilli?
The executive vice president of the Thomas B. Fordham Institute, he oversees the organization’s research projects and publications and contributes to the Flypaper blog and weekly Education Gadfly newsletter. He is also a research fellow at Stanford University’s Hoover Institution.
Former VP of K12.com..is that the Milken, junk bond felon, cyber charter? I guess when you can’t pass the finger print check to be in a brick and mortar building you start an online scam.
Maybe Reinvent Ed is the Chester Finn guy?
Do you think they (Mike and Chester, that is) have ever taught k-12 kids for more than 2-3 years…direct in the trenches classroom experience? I doubt it.
Read bio here:
http://educationnext.org/author/mpetrilli/
http://educationnext.org/author/mpetrilli/
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Diane,
This guy? Mike Petrilli?
The executive vice president of the Thomas B. Fordham Institute, he oversees the organization’s research projects and publications and contributes to the Flypaper blog and weekly Education Gadfly newsletter. He is also a research fellow at Stanford University’s Hoover Institution.
Former VP of K12.com..is that the Milken, junk bond felon, cyber charter? I guess when you can’t pass the finger print check to be in a brick and mortar building you start an online scam.
Maybe Reinvent Ed is the Chester Finn guy?
Do you think they (Mike and Chester, that is) have ever taught k-12 kids for more than 2-3 years…direct in the trenches classroom experience? I doubt it.
Read bio here:
http://educationnext.org/author/mpetrilli/
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I know them both well. I don’t think either has any K-12 teaching experience (nor do I).
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Well somehow they became experts on how to “reform” public schools and evidently one must agree with them or else you just fear change and we are trying to scare people.
Why must he remain anonymous? I guess it is MAN up! Will he?
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Not if it serves the public good and prepares our children well for their futures. I find the word “profiteer” to be distasteful and inappropriate, and you’re making some sweeping generalizations when many of these public charter schools are doing amazing things.
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Identify yourself! Name the schools and the “amazing things”. Do it now!
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What stinks even more is that in the state of Georgia, we have a 67% graduation rate. If a public charter school like Drew Charter School can get 95% graduation rates, then you have nothing to complain about!!
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95% of the students who entered in their first year (7th grade, 9th grade)?
What is their attrition rate for students and staff?
We have charters that make the same claim, but they lose 50% and more by the time they graduate. They don’t like to advertise that statistic.
Do you homework.
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Typo…your homework, then report back.
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Drew Charter is the best charter school in Metro Atlanta, yet Atlanta Public Schools was ready to decline their application to extend their charter through 12th grade. Their graduation rates are >20 pct points higher than APS. And that’s students who finish high school in 4 years!!!
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Your homework is to learn how to debate and comment respectfully, just as you would expect your students to do.
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How much more evidence do you need that the profit motive doesn’t work in education? Diane posts evidence in multiple posts every single day. Do you actaully read the blog, or just pop in to make rude comments?
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“Folks like myself and Mike Petrilli”.,..can you name yourself since you are willing to name your colleague?
Can you name this PUBLIC charter school that operates at the fraction of the cost per pupil of the traditional public school?
You make these assertions, but you and your school are anonymous, why?
Comments such as yours don’t have much merit without the names of specific schools, cities, “leaders”, etc.
Man up! Or Woman up!
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Linda, If you click on his name, Reinvent_ED, it takes you to his website and you can read about his background on his About Me page.
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Thank you read post below….this person is misinformed and possibly another eduvulture.
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stop making generalizations about people you don’t know.
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“eduvulture” – love it!
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KIPP operates many of its public charter schools at $5K-7K per pupil!!! Go research it. My comment does not mean I’m a KIPP supporter, but some of their schools (e.g., KIPP Empower) are doing innovative things with blended learning and having marked success.
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Ha! Blended learning is innovative?
Yes, staring at a device all day is so much fun. Teaching without the human interaction is so 21st century. Stepford newbies and baby drones….how revolutionary.
Yes, when you pay teachers a pittance and your staff turnover is high, you don’t have to worry about higher salaries, family health benefits and pensions, until you get to the head honchos who rake in the dough. Keep moving the shells around to lower the per pupil costs.
Do you measure “marked success” by test scores?
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How many students with significant disabilities (e.g., IEPs with both academic and functional goals plus 2 or more related services) attend Kipp and Drew? Do students with disablities fully participate in inclusive classes? How many inclusive classes use a co-teaching model? How much teaching experience do the sped teachers have who are employed in these charters? If you had a child with disabilities would you send them to either of these charters ,confident that they would receive an education that met their needs? Would you be confident that your child with disabilities would be fully supported by the administrstion to complete the program?
You can’ t claim these schools are high quality unless they provide an appropriate and inclusive education for children across a broad spectrum of abilities and diversity.
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Others have researched KIPPs claims about their per pupil expenditures and they don’t hold up. Look at Bruce Baker: http://schoolfinance101.wordpress.com/2012/05/07/no-excuses-really-another-look-at-our-nepc-charter-spending-figures/
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Figures don’t lie, but liars figure….I hope ReEd, aka AL, takes the time to read all the posts and links so he can become informed. He is getting quite an education by educators at no charge.
You’re welcome Al!
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If you read the research by Julian Vasquez Heilig (Cloaking Inequity) and Bruce Baker, you will learn that KIPP schools spend more per pupil than regular public schools.
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Allow me to use business jargon to make my point. What makes my head rotate 360 degrees is charter groups that shake down taxpayers and school districts like a hedge fund manager swooping in to reap short term profits. These privatization moves have lost sight of stewardship.Your vision is to maximize “shareholder value” without regard to communities, employees, and customers. If shareholder value (stock price, or test scores) isn’t maximized the organization is considered mismanaged and inefficient.
However, shareholder value is more than stock price. It is R&D, READ professional development. It is being socially and environmentally sustainable, READ neighborhood schools. It is employee relations, READ compensation packages that attract and retain good teachers. It is being responsible for a range of stakeholder interests.
It’s called “being a good, corporate citizen”.
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After watching the video you posted on this site ( I recommend others watch) I know two things: you do not know what is taking place in many of the chain charters and you do not know what is happening in many, many, many of our successful traditional public schools.
Students do NOT sit passively listening to lectures. Students do not spend their school days readng textbooks. Students do not memorize facts. Students do not sit in rows all day. You are extremely misinformed.
Are you sure you are not another “reformer” spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt because you have something to sell?
http://www.reinventedsolutions.com/about-me/
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@Linda, What the fellow is really doing is suggesting 19th century classroom instruction takes place in the 21st century–which is ridiculous. His intent was to promote the use of virtual worlds in education. His claim and evidence should have focused solely on how the technology allows students to experience virtual field trips, create lost civilizations, or test architecture.
Name calling and propaganda are not intellectual forms of persuasion. I’m surprised he thought that to be a successful approach when creating this video for a TED conference.
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I suspect there is a profit, a way for him to cash in….this isn’t an altruistic pursuit. Yes, his assumptions are ridiculous. Another out of touch, self-proclaimed “reformer”.
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Go on LInda, keep making incorrect assumptions about my motivations. It’s sad that this is what you think of folks who have innovative ideas you cannot respect or even try to appreciate.
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You assume you’re the only one with innovative ideas. Why are YOU insulting everyone who doesn’t agree with you? Are you not making assumptions as well? Please cut and paste one sentence from your posts that exemplify appreciation and respect.
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Also, it was the act of a simple mind jumping on the bandwagon without any knowledge or expertise in our profession….arrogance and ignorance is in abundance nowadays.
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I wonder if we should assume our mystery poster is this fellow:
http://www.reinventedsolutions.com/about-me
If so, I missed the part where it was mentioned what a long and involved list of education credentials and experience teaching in the public schools he has. I’ll keep checking the website.
I do admire his passion and commitment to trying to reach students using media, but not all learning can be accomplished with interactive digital technology. As a musician and music teacher, I appreciate his inner-city music project, but I would be hard-pressed to see technology “re-inventing” how people are taught to be musicians. While technology can assist in training the repetitive and analytical aspects of performance (program applications such as SmartMusic can work wonders), music students need mentors to spend quality time working with students. No technology will ever replace the necessary human interactions between students and teachers. Technology should be a tool, not a school.
I once heard a Sirius radio ad for the K-12 cyber school that started out with some nonsensical re-enactment of boring rote drills conducted by a teacher and dutifully repeated by the students. I was sick to my stomach at such a disgusting piece of propaganda. I was so insulted that I won’t listen to that channel anymore.
For those of us who know better, there is an extreme lack of validity in the claim that all public schools are utilizing antiquated teaching methods. Even though I am only one person, I have taught in four different school districts in two states, and my experiences reveal that his claims cannot be further from the truth. Teachers utilize project-based learning, cooperative team-based discovery methods, differentiated instruction, and yes, even technologically-assisted lesson exposition and development, just to mention a few of the 21st century methods one can find in public schools. If our mystery poster (someone with whom I’ve locked horns in the past) is operating on a false premise in which he truly believes, then its entirely possible that no one can reason with him to think differently. I say we challenge this person to observe, “in-action,” every last teacher who posts comments here and truthfully report what really goes on in our classrooms. As Diane challenges KIPP to transform an entire at-risk district, I challenge Reinvent_ED to do several years of intense research into just how public school educators from all over the country truly “do school.”
(Oh, Linda–may I say that I love your feistiness and your intelligent attention to detail.)
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Why thank you LG. I admire your posts and read you regularly….fun to make new cyber friends. Happy New Year…may 2013 be less stressful for our profession.
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Experience isn’t all it’s cracked up to be, Linda. But I respect teachers and came from a family of teachers. You need to understand that innovation happens when you collaborate with folks who have different skill sets than you. You just want homogeneous thinking, but innovation happens at the margins. Read “The Medici Effect” and then get back to me.
The reason our education system has not changed in more than a century is because folks like you refuse to accept ideas from folks who have a different set of experiences than yourself. And I feel sorry for you, because instead of being a part of the solution to reform public education, you will find yourself on the outside looking in.
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You are so clueless…talk about making assumptions. You are lacking self awareness or I believe Freud called this delusions of grandeur.
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Oh phooey. Reposting here due to quote-level silliness:
I wonder if we should assume our mystery poster is this fellow:
http://www.reinventedsolutions.com/about-me
If so, I missed the part where it was mentioned what a long and involved list of education credentials and experience teaching in the public schools he has. I’ll keep checking the website.
I do admire his passion and commitment to trying to reach students using media, but not all learning can be accomplished with interactive digital technology. As a musician and music teacher, I appreciate his inner-city music project, but I would be hard-pressed to see technology “re-inventing” how people are taught to be musicians. While technology can assist in training the repetitive and analytical aspects of performance (program applications such as SmartMusic can work wonders), music students need mentors to spend quality time working with students. No technology will ever replace the necessary human interactions between students and teachers. Technology should be a tool, not a school.
I once heard a Sirius radio ad for the K-12 cyber school that started out with some nonsensical re-enactment of boring rote drills conducted by a teacher and dutifully repeated by the students. I was sick to my stomach at such a disgusting piece of propaganda. I was so insulted that I won’t listen to that channel anymore.
For those of us who know better, there is an extreme lack of validity in the claim that all public schools are utilizing antiquated teaching methods. Even though I am only one person, I have taught in four different school districts in two states, and my experiences reveal that his claims cannot be further from the truth. Teachers utilize project-based learning, cooperative team-based discovery methods, differentiated instruction, and yes, even technologically-assisted lesson exposition and development, just to mention a few of the 21st century methods one can find in public schools. If our mystery poster (someone with whom I’ve locked horns in the past) is operating on a false premise in which he truly believes, then its entirely possible that no one can reason with him to think differently. I say we challenge this person to observe, “in-action,” every last teacher who posts comments here and truthfully report what really goes on in our classrooms. As Diane challenges KIPP to transform an entire at-risk district, I challenge Reinvent_ED to do several years of intense research into just how public school educators from all over the country truly “do school.”
(Oh, Linda–may I say that I love your feistiness and your intelligent attention to detail.)
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Your comments are pathetic and disrespectful. Clearly, you didn’t understand my TED Talk, and it’s amazing you are a teacher! If you actually watched the talk, you’d see that the “idea worth spreading” is that we need to teach our children using stimuli they use in their daily lives. And it’s totally true that we still teach a monolithic style of instructions in the 21st century. I’ve seen it, and you need to accept the fact that many of our teachers are not trained to integrate digital learning or event collaborative, project based learning into their classrooms which is truly sad.
You know nothing about me and nothing about TED, nor the social good I have created through my work with TED and “El Sistema” which is completely separate from my education policy work. Please focus on the issues and I would be happy to defend my credentials to anyone who reads this blog.
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You obviously travel in circles where people worship you. It isn’t going to happen here.
We innovate, create, integrate, collaborate, motivate, mentor, inspire, and support children and young adults while developing project based learning every day.
Apparently it serves your agenda to paint us all as incompetent buffoons.
You haven’t a clue what we do….ignorant and arrogant…you prove my point.
You know nothing about us and nothing about our schools nor the social good we have created in our communities.
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Linda, where you went wrong is making sweeping assumptions about my background and values and that was completely unprofessional. I am not arrogant and people do not “worship” me. But I will defend my honor, because I know that 99% of the readers on this blog will never accept real reforms in public education, but you can debate respectfully and not get mean-spirited. So let it go, please. If Diane wants to kick me off this blog because my views are not protecting the status quo, then she can do so, but know that censorship is not something that aligns with our democratic values and freedom of speech.
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Al,
Re-read your own posts and practice what you preach sir. Get a grip….apparently it is one way street for you. Here is your homework assignment: look in the mirror and self reflect. Visit public schools…innovation is happening everywhere not just a few charters in Georgia. Branch out, be informed and show some respect yourself.
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Now, who is making unfounded assumptions about what teachers know and don’t know, Reinvent? I supervised teachers who were begging for technology upgrades in their classrooms but told not this year- the school system doesn’t have the money. Each year we wondered if our school would have the money to buy printer ink or if we’d need to buy our own. In spite of 30 years of state sanctioned austerity for public schools, teachers built their own technological masterpieces in their classrooms. Children thrived.
I worked for years along side teachers who spent their free time and money for classes learning to integrate technology into classrooms with the explicit goal of preparing for the 21st century. I saw teachers who,when given the resources, create some amazing learning projects with their students. With and without technology, I saw teachers teach children who couldn’t hear to talk, children who couldn’t talk to converse, children who couldn’t read one word learn to read, children who were uninterested become engaged, and children who had such severe cerebral palsy they needed to be fed but could create amazing art work with head wands and paint brushes.
These amazing teachers learned to perfect their teaching after many year in classrooms. None were temps or neophytes. They made teaching a career. None taught for bonus pay.
No amount of technology training compensates for experience, trust, respect, and autonomy. Teaching is a PRACTICE PROFESSION. Experience matters. Treating teachers with respect, as professionals matters . So don’t assume we are resistant to change if we aren’t enamored with your ‘reforms’. Because we know they are not reforms that are designed to engage children but to validate edu- dilettantes’ arrogant delusions about training the ignorant masses.
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Bravo, JC, bravo! My sentiments exactly! 🙂
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Really reinvent you made terrible mass judgement about 99% of the readers don’t want to accept reform. I believe that reform is necessary, just not the type reform you offer. I am more for research based reform that our country and others have conducted proven effective. I do not doubt you voracity for meaningful change, I do doubt your methods and research. I don’t believe turning schools over to charter companies promotes the Democratic ideals that our country is founded upon. I respect your TED speech and I do believe in collaboration, but right now rheeformers are not interested in sharing the spotlight. I am rambling so I will shut up now.
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He hasn’t returned. We scared him away or maybe he is waiting for new reformy talking points. He underestimated the intelligence, dedication and spukiness of the lowly public school teachers. I will take your cue and shut up, too. Happy New Year.
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I’m sick and tired of your pathetic character assassinations, Linda. You are the teacher I would never let my children have, because you make assumptions that are incorrect. I have been in more public charters than you know, and I have seen how many inner city kids are getting screwed out of a quality education. Change is coming, and you can either embrace new ideas and reforms that are working at scale, or you can be left behind and continue to complain to deaf ears.
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Teachers are sick of your character assassinations, Al….practice what you preach sir.
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I would just like to ask everybody to hit the reply button higher on the comment strand, so your vituperative back-and-forth doesn’t trail down the side of the page.
It’s hard to follow, but I do believe the selective indignation of the edupreneurs is sincere. They really can’t believe that others would dare to speak of innovative pioneers like them with contempt, but they understand that their own contempt for opponents is justified.
It’s a good business strategy to denigrate actual teachers and other “defenders of the status quo”, if you’re trying to muscle your way to regulatory control of their work.
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Innovative pioneers…HA! Eduvulture pariahs…..legends in their own minds. Thanks for your advice and support.
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It sounds like you are one of the few that benifits from the so called reform movement. I’ll bet you have very little if any actual teaching experience.
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What else do you expect from Obama and Duncan? Now wake up people and put this time tested statement to work “I hear real good, but I see a whole lot better.” This means you can listen but the only thing that matters is what you really do. When you look at the history of Obama and Duncan it is filled from the beginning with the corporatization and privatization of schools starting in 1995 with Obama in Chicago at the Annenburg Foundation for Chicago Public Schools. He was in the vanguard of Renaissance 2000 which is all about privatization and corporatization. He is in total agreement with the republicans concerning privatizing public education. Obama is really, by his policies, right wing. Just think about it for a moment and think of how he has run the office. He is certainly not a progressive or liberal but a conservative by what he has done and is doing.
In fact, he sold us down the river with that touchy feely stuff. Do not listen to spin anymore only look at what they do.
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Perhaps Other Spaces would feel comfortable in letting us know who accredits the college or university that he/she works for, and let us know if there is a physical location or if it is a virtual school.
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My guess is, s/he would not. Her previous contract could contain scary gag language, and some former employees were really burned for speaking up in the big for-profit college expose in 2008. Nobody defended them, and the crooks and frauds at Kaplan, Phoenix, and Apollo have lawyers. This sleazy operation sounds like it was bought up by somebody’s venture arm.
My guess is also that the school is “accredited” by one of the many fly-by-night organizations cooked up by profiteers for that purpose, if it’s accredited at all. These “higher ed” fleecing mills are old scams, and it offends me when today’s online edupreneurs claim their current version is innovative.
Over twenty years ago, I got active defending my Boston teen mother graduates from bogus higher ed debt traps, so the whole Kaplan scandal caught my attention. If you click my signature, it will take you to my little Daily Kos diaries for 2008-2009, and you can see me trying to alert the world to the news that Kaplan had moved their profiteering model into the public schools. They later sold their virtual charter business to K12.
It’s very hard for employees to speak up, but my advice to everybody is, yes, you can afford to judge a potential employer on moral grounds, and walk away if an enterprise stinks.
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And thank you all SO MUCH for referencing my talk. I want everyone to watch it – it’s about “ideas worth spreading.” The beauty of social media.
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It wasn’t new information to me. I have used many of the techniques, ideas, strategies while teaching 12 and 13 year olds for years. We are not using slate boards and chalk in a one room school house. We are professionals who spend our own free time and money perfecting our craft to improve and elevate our teaching. We never stop learning. We are the ones reforming every day…we live students first. We are the real deal. Experience does matter.
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By the way, twelve years of high stakes testing…..that is the status quo. Rank, stack, shame, close and privatize is the status quo. The reformy terminology may work for the uninformed, but it isn’t going to fly here.
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I enthusiastically peruse every one of Diane’s posts, and I even remember one long-ago commenter referring to the tertiary responses as “e.e. cummings poems”. How true! More to the point, this thread in particular has me riveted.
Going back to the original post, I am still trying to wrap my head around the $12.50 per week payment for teaching a college course. If you teach 3 or 4 courses per semester, you earn, let’s see… $50 per week, or $200 per month? I am assuming this is strictly a part-time job to even begin to expect people with doctorates, (or master’s for that matter) to take such a ridiculous offer full time. As a part-time job it is absurd, and only one explanation is possible. As someone already pointed out, this institution is attempting to divest itself of faculty. I suppose TeachingEcon’s suggestion of supplementing the meager pay with babysitting, or Walmart greeting is completely acceptable, assuming of course those two options will be accommodating to one’s teaching schedule. I only wish I knew the name of the college so I can firmly discourage my high school son from applying there.
The bickering between Linda and ReinventEd is equally fascinating. With all due respect ReEd, you popped in here playing a bit of offense: “misinformation and paranoia being communicated… byproducts of inefficiency”, etc. Do you believe a teacher being paid $12.50 per week is the natural consequence of the squandering of funds by traditional schools? Seems a bit extreme to me. I don’t disagree that the public education bureaucracy is a bottomless money pit, but what I do observe first hand is the nearly continuous public criticism of teachers, and a whole lot of money being spent by the bureaucracy and policy world in attempts to control us, or fire us, and very little being spent (and very little being said) on the resources needed to meet children’s actual needs, regardless of what teachers themselves are paid.
I also gather from your comments ReEd, that you are a relative newcomer to this game. You make some frequently-heard talking points about the wonderfulness of Charters, and the shamefulness of certain graduation rates, while conveniently ignoring the social/economic factors that contribute to school achievement, the preferential enrollment that charters engage in, and the overall middling performance of many charters.
What is most interesting is that out of one side of your mouth, you are offended by Linda’s assumptions and feel you must defend you honor, while out of the other side you write, “I know that 99% of the readers on this blog will never accept real reforms in public education”. Why am I imagining a pot and a kettle?
I watched your short video by the way. I could tell you are a dilettante by the footage depicting some imaginary Rockwell classroom. When a film portrays the teacher sitting at a square desk in the exact front of the room, facing rows of students, something is amiss. I don’t know where this scenario actually exists other than in stereotypes.
I hear a lot of entrepreneurs talking about digitizing classrooms, while minimizing real humans interacting with kids. It’s classic how you and Linda are voicing, in a microcosm, the two sides of this antagonistic coin. I will admit I am on Linda’s side, and from all I have read and observed, the “reform” side has been pretty rude, nasty and dishonest overall, so sorry to say ReEd, respect and professionalism left the building quite a long time ago. Linda’s distrust is completely unsurprising.
By the way, do you have children of your own? Are they under the age of 12? Are you comfortable with them in front of computers for several hours a day at school in addition to the time spent computing at home? Just curious.
Good luck with your ventures Ed. You will need it.
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Let me introduce a truly radical, innovative twenty second century idea to Reinvent_Ed: take a few more minutes from your busy schedule and do your homework first.
Just a suggestion, but if you had read even the last few days of this blog you would have learned something about the use and misuse of standardized testing as well as how it reinforces inequity and helps drive a false narrative of public education failures and charter miracles, the pros and cons of the proposed Common Core standards, the vital role of public education in not only education but our democracy as well, the difference between the public relations spin of charters & privatizers and the reality, the devaluing of critical thinking in favor of bubble-in skills, and yes, the adverse impact of the for-profit motive on educational practice and efficacy. There were other issues brought up too in which I have a special interest, like special education, but apparently none of these merit more than superficial comment by you.
Then again, your failure to provide even a modest defense of your talking points is telling. So keep on keepin’ on. You’re doing a great job of making your critics look great.
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Well, the data on GA charter schools is freely available here: http://archives.gadoe.org/DMGetDocument.aspx/2010%202011%20Charter%20School%20Annual%20Report%20for%20Webposting%20Feb%2013.pdf?p=6CC6799F8C1371F63D9AED7D43D1CDA5FDDD168F996C546A7AC76D1CC23F574D
Review it yourselves, but I see no magic bullets. 70% of charter schools made Adequate Yearly Progress (AYP) in 2010-2011, compared to 73% of traditional public schools that made AYP.
According to the GA DoE data, Drew is a K-8 EdisonLearning school and their “Management Fee” is $565,000. I don’t see per pupil expenditures reported but that’s a hefty sum for the for-profit EMO. I also don’t see student-teacher ratios, but with 803 students and 61 teachers, it could be as low as 13-1. Student retention is 94%. ELL, Sp Ed and Poverty levels are all below district averages. They have an extended school day and year. Their test scores are good, but some raters on the Great Schools pages have noted observing a harsh, militaristic approach…
As for the 95% graduation rate, that’s not applicable to Drew since they don’t have a high school –it’s scheduled to open next year.
Found a graduation rate of 95.8% for a 6-12 school, Charter Conservatory for Liberal Arts and Technology, in Stateboro, GA. With their 132 students and 15 teachers, it looks like they have a 9-1 student-teacher ratio for their 77% white students and 0% eligible for Free & Reduced Lunch, compared to 59.6% F/R Lunch in the district.
In fact, there are several charter schools in that state which have lower numbers than district averages of students in poverty who are enrolled.
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And BTW, the “Instructional Specialities” for the Charter Conservatory for Liberal Arts and Technology serving the 77% white kids in Statesboro are “Constructivism and Multiple intelligences”. The state report doesn’t list any for the 91% black kids at Drew, so I’m guessing drill and kill –though, like at KIPP, they do get enrichment.
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The new and dangerous phenomenon in for-profit edupreneurship is its pursuit of political and legislative domination at every level, to absolutely mandate expenditure of public dollars for their products, especially digital ones. Think about ALEC’s legislative models.
Reinvent Ed offers his own enterprise as an example of how to grow a business by political insidership. Here’s a collage of his website’s “wish list”, which makes it clear that mayors and governors are preferred over balky local school boards grease the path for mandated marketing of his innovations.
“… monopoly local school board … unqualified and corrupt school boards … the issue of school board elections, term limits, and the terms of when a local mayor or state governor can intervene in a failing school system … Enact term limits or other conditions when a mayor or Governor can intervene on a local school board…penalties or escalation mechanisms on a corrupt school board or school system that is failing …”
But the main thing he’s wishing for is legal teeth to command public dollars:
“Public dollars should follow the child … I would like to see school boards be led by local mayors, particularly in urban school districts …Continue the rollout of digital learning initiatives… In South Korea, for example, they have legislated that …”
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And yet he hates the word “profiteer.” Well, if it looks, walks and quacks like a duck…
And don’t even get me started on TED and the vision thing that. of course, only Tech, Entertainment and Design people are capable of imagining for other people’s professions. Right. TED Conferences Drag Down Intellectuals, Glorify Smart-Style People: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/02/ted-conferences-drag-down-intellectuals-glorify-smart-style-people.html
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Good piece. Thanks for providing the link.
My article makes a similar critique of TED talks (in the context of a critique of the Big Idea).
I recommend Jay Pareene’s piece as well:
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Possibly being exposed by mostly female teachers is quite frightening.
He never did man up!
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You mean…Brave Sir Robin ran away? I wonder if he’s martialing up his edreforces for another attack since he’s outnumbered here “99%-1%.” Thing is, for all the shysters out there, I feel there are plenty of good people caught up in the reform movement because they’ve subscribed to the “failing schools” narrative, and they believe in the merits of business. Judging from his comments, it appears that Al has the “Superman” Syndrome. The only people who can reach this type of personality have black robes and gavels.
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His faux TED talk was eerily similar to the Joel Klein/Rupert Murdoch Amplify snake oil presentation. See page 11 vs. 13 (link below)…..children advance from sitting in rows looking at books or their teacher to sitting in rows looking at devices and this is progress?
Is that what the children of the elite do all day at Sidwell Friends?
Maybe he doesn’t know they are all recycling the same reformy talking points. Their innovations are not that innovative and they don’t even know what they don’t know. I suppose they are not intersted in speaking to real educators, the ones in the trenches who see and hear kids on a daily basis. Speaking to charter school cheerleaders, highly paid head honchos and pre-selected TFA types does not represent our profession.
Click to access Amplify_UBS_PresentationDec2012.pdf
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Ted talks can be as creative as the talker, and I’d have no objection whatsoever if our edupreneur gave Ted talks and let the world judge and embrace his ideas and products. They’re only 18 minutes, and – nobody is systematically legislating them down children’s throats.
Here’s a Ted talk I really like: “Margaret Wertheim: The beautiful math of coral (and crochet)”
I don’t think the video linked to Reinvent Ed is actually a Ted talk; it doesn’t have the features of an actual talk. Maybe there was a talk presented with it, explaining the need to force the product on unwilling school boards and world history teachers determined to defend the monopolistic status quo against it.
It says its a presentation at a Ted conference. If we just examine it on its own merits, there’s not a lot there to embrace. There’s a view of an empty virtual “city”, with a “first person” disembodied soul wandering through it, finding … nothing whatsoever. Ancient Rome doesn’t exist, its been homogenized into a game platform. It’s in no way innovative, if you’ve seen a Nintendo Zelda game. There are no features whatsoever, other than the creepy 3D stylistic conventions.
What city have they actually built since this video aired in 2009? Put this turkey on the actual market place, and the world is going to flock as far away from it as we can get. The vendor is going to have to resort to disruptive innovation, to destroy the actual educational enterprise he’s trying to replace with this bunk.
Instead of demonstrating any educational value, Edupreneurs attack the real teachers. They’re re aggressively lobbying and bribing their way to the top, demanding our children be delivered to them, by mayors and governors, as a captive market.
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What subject do you teach? I find you fascinating.
I am from the Boston area and I travel there often to visit my family. I am so grateful for connecting with you via this blog. Thanks, Diane.
Your ability to capsulize this faux innovation is amazing.
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Dumb question…chemistry?
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“Public dollars should follow the child …”
This is by far the worst argument for privatizing in that many people actually agree with it saying that public eduction is all about THEIR children. Public funding is not a “gift” to those blessed with children from everybody else–it is part and parcel of the commons. It is an investment in the community and its future. If public dollars should follow the child, then only people with children should pay for the schools, right? More nonsense.
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Thanks for making my position crystal clear to everyone, Chemtchr. Your vitriol is a standard we should all aspire to. That’s right, folks, I make gobs of money from my “own enterprise.” WRONG! Keep making the wrong assumptions about my motives. You know NOTHING and couldn’t be more wrong about what I do and why.
I do stand behind many of my positions and you can continue to misstate my positions ad nausea. You and Paul Thomas are perhaps the same person?
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This has nothing to do with vitriol, or your motivations, ReinventEd. Yes, your consulting business may be a hobby, or you might even be motivated by a (mistaken) worldview that profit-seeking will automatically drive productive innovation. It doesn’t matter.
This is a substantive question, and neither of us is going to crumble from hurt feelings.
We’re discussing the product you showcase in this video. It’s an empty box – there is your video right on the screen, and it has no educational content.
I’m asking you, what have you put into that box in the past three years? Do you have now a working model of an educational world history game, and what evidence can you show of its educational value?
I say again, if you have for-profit educational advances, I totally endorse your right to market them. But I oppose anybody’s right to lobby legislatures and public officials to legislate mandates for entrepreneurs’ projects.
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Please read. Posted before, but well worth it, especially in light of our recent discussion and what the “innovators” push for other people’s children. A great article:
This is the Waldorf School of the Peninsula, one of around 160 Waldorf schools in the country that subscribe to a teaching philosophy focused on physical activity and learning through creative, hands-on tasks. Those who endorse this approach say computers inhibit creative thinking, movement, human interaction and attention spans.
The Waldorf method is nearly a century old, but its foothold here among the digerati puts into sharp relief an intensifying debate about the role of computers in education.
“I fundamentally reject the notion you need technology aids in grammar school,” said Alan Eagle, 50, whose daughter, Andie, is one of the 196 children at the Waldorf elementary school; his son William, 13, is at the nearby middle school. “The idea that an app on an iPad can better teach my kids to read or do arithmetic, that’s ridiculous.”
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It is good to see you making a post that is favorable to charter schools. The advantage of charter schools is that they can provide a student with a variety of options, allowing a better match between student and learning environment.
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It is the methods I am referring to and it is a private school. My pubic school staffed by unionized teachers provides students with a variety of options, allowing a better match between student and learning environments.
Please try to learn something today rather than reposting your same talking points over and over and over.
Read below about their philosophy and become more informed. They are not a charter school.
What is the tuition at a Waldorf school? Is there financial assistance available?
Tuition costs and financial assistance vary from school to school and are comparable to other private schools in the same geographic location that are not subsidized through church affiliations. In the United States, Waldorf schools are independent and are supported by tuition income, fees, and charitable contributions. Each school develops its financial aid assistance policies and determines the amount of tuition assistance it can offer. There is no North American general fund at this time to assist individual children to go to a Waldorf school. For the most current tuition information, you may contact individual schools directly through our list of Affiliated Schools.
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There are, of course, charter schools that follow the Waldorf method. I am glad that you see the value of choice within a school, but am puzzled why you believe choice has no value outside the school door.
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What are you talking about? Many public schools follow the Waldorf method. I know. I do. Many do. We study child development in preparation for our profession. Your thoughts always cycle back and you rarely process new information. I have to end this circle jerk. I have papers to grade, lessons to plan and books to read.
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Never said it was, but most do not. You always make the leap back to your predetermined opinion..processing new information is not your strong suit. Back to work….tata!
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Many public schools may follow the Waldorf methods, but that is not inconsistent with charter schools also following the Waldorf method.
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I know you won’t get this and will argue endlessly about it because you don’t really want to understand the gravity of the situation, so this is going to be my one and only attempt to explain it.
In my doctoral studies, during the 90s, before we had any charter schools in my state or most anywhere else, charters and vouchers were regularly discussed. I taught at a private school at the time and, at first, I didn’t understand the issues. Then, Catholic experts in education at my Catholic university detailed the concerns. The bottom line was that they feared charters and vouchers would destroy public education, and public education is too important for our democracy to let it be destroyed. This came from many professionals who were also strong proponents of parochial schools.
Well, here we are, 20 years later, and VOILA! The public is regularly told that public education is rotten to the core, and school districts have decided that the best thing to do is to give schools away to private management companies to deal with.
It’s like my mentors all had crystal balls.
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Prof W,
Your mentors were correct, but what they may not have foreseen is that charter schools have also led to the hastened demise of urban Catholic schools, as well.
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My mentors did think that parochial schools would be impacted, too, but I don’t think anyone realized that it would occur to the extent that we are seeing today. In my city, one parochial school after another has been closed and then reopened as a charter –and not just in low income areas.
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Unless, of course, those students are English Language Learners, children with special needs, homeless, or receiving free (rather than reduced-price) school lunch.
Students who fit the above categories are persistently enrolled in far fewer numbers, relative to the local school district, in charter schools, belying their claim to being public schools.
But readers of this blog recognize that free market fundamentalists refuse to acknowledge facts, and that their actions and rhetoric mirror the statement of their sainted Ronald Reagan, who said, “Facts are stupid things.”
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You might want to look at the GAO study which finds 1) the average charter has fewer special needs students than the average public school in the district and 2) a higher percentage of charter schools have high special needs enrollment than public schools.
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Link?.
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You could search GAO charter school, but here it is:http://gao.gov/products/GAO-12-543
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It’s sad that the “accountability” drive has so limited us in the real choices we can offer younger children, within our public schools. The Waldorf model, like Montessori, has many features a family might choose, within a public system, but there isn’t any way to monetize such features, or “bring them to scale”, as Gates would put it. It’s the infestation of profiteers which has worked tirelessly to outlaw our work to bring real choices to public school children.
Let me be clear. I believe choices are necessary and practical within the public schools system. The privatizers are selling no choice whatsoever for low-income families, and their dishonest slogans offend me.
After my oldest son died, my seven year old was too fragile for for the public second grade for a while. We visited different alternative schools, and his happiest day was at the Waldorf. When I picked him up, he brought his teacher to me by the hand to introduce her, and regretfully hugged her goodbye. The ban on computers was a deal breaker.
He chose a converted barn in an apple orchard, with a row of Apple computers, fittingly enough. He learned to “write code” playing Rocky’s Boots (a video game which is an actual work of genius), as well as to turn pots on a wheel. He just this second went out the door, to drive home to Columbus, Ohio, and the Institute for Mathematical Biology.
We were (barely) in a position to
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I think you might be able to make a good case that charter schools should be structured as not for profit schools, but that distinction is not clear when all charter schools are discussed as if they are all the same.
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And so are all public schools.
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“Not for profit” isn’t a useful category anymore, teachingeconomist. The craft of creating a fake non-profit front has been perfected by K12 and others.
It’s just a baseboard for the profiteers to hide under, and the public money disappears under it, never to be accounted for to the taxpayers. “Charters authorization” has become another dark art, whereby remote administrators can divert public money to well-connected hucksters.
Why not just build the alternative programs right in the public system, out in daylight, where they belong?
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I may be more optimistic about our ability to distinguish between genuine non profit charter schools like Community Roots and shame nonprofits. If you and I could tell the difference, I think we can write and enforce good fegulations.
I think you would find nearly as much opposition to specialization and choice within the public system as you find to choice outside the public system. Many frequent posters on here argue that choice has a negative impact on the local community and local schools, so it should not be allowed. Some time ago a poster complained that it was choice within the public system in Florida that was destroying her traditional geographically zoned public high school.
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“I may be more optimistic about our ability to distinguish between genuine non profit charter schools like Community Roots and shame nonprofits. If you and I could tell the difference, I think we can write and enforce good fegulations.”
This is very pie in the sky.
But, OK, next time I exercise my authority to “write and enforce good regulations,” I’ll make sure that all charter schools are regulated, since they are not currently. and I’ll include regulations stipulating that the salaries of non-profit charter school administrators and executives cannot not exceed the salaries for similar positions in the local public schools. I’ll also prohibit for-profit charter schools and non-profit charters that are owned by for-profit companies.
And I will do that in all 50 states.
And while I’m at it, I’ll make sure that corporations are considered people, organizations like ALEC are classified as political lobbies, not tax exempt “charities,” and that other 501(c)3 and 501(c)4 “Nonprofiteers” which have learned “how to lobby like a corporation and pay taxes like a charity,” have a lot more regulatory oversight: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Nonprofiteers%3A+how+to+lobby+like+a+corporation+and+pay+taxes+like+a…-a015204933.
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I am glad that you see the problem with charter schools to be primarily one of insufficient/incorrect regulation. I think we are in agreement on that.
I am not sure why you think increasing regulation of charter schools is so much more difficult than eliminating them entirely as most who post here would desire.
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Oh, please. You’ve made up that obstacle out of whole cloth. I’ve worked on alternative programs within public education for decades, and there is just no such opposition, except from the corporate data-accountability forces.
People who’ve posted comments opposing “choice” are only opposing removal of assets from the public sphere. You clearly are writing in favor removing assets from the public sphere. There’s your difference.
I’m not sure what Community Roots is. Here’s the Board:
http://www.communityroots.org/people/board
These aren’t community roots, would be my first observations. Are you really about to argue that teachers within a public school system shouldn’t be allowed to operate exactly such a program, because you “think you would find nearly as much opposition to specialization and choice within the public system?”
If so, that opposition is coming from people on your team including, apparently, yourself.
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No, much of the oposition to charter schools is that they “destroy the community”. LG, a frequent poster, has often made this argument, as has Dr.Ravitch. Many posters complain that charter schools cream off the best students. Meaningful choice within the public system would have the same impact. Many complain that money follows the students. That would have to happen in a total public system as well if the alternative schools will de adequately funded.
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ChemTchr is correct. You are fabricating. The many choices of different alternative schools within public school systems, including magnet schools and magnet programs in schools, have not siphoned resources or destroyed communities and teachers have supported them. Many of those offerings are at neighborhood schools that have reserved spaces for members of the community, unlike charters.
What teachers are opposed to is how schools in high poverty areas, which are the most needy, area also the most under-resourced schools, including in cities like NY and Chicago. That makes fertile ground for school failure, closure and reopening as charters –and seems to be planned.
And teachers have certainly never opposed having more choices and autonomy within their own schools and classrooms,
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It will take me a little while to fing the arguments I want to refer to on this blog, but let me start with one that Dr. Ravitch made here:https://dianeravitch.net/2012/11/14/charters-expand-despite-lack-of-evidence-for-their-success/
In that post she said “The more charters open, the more the public schools decline, especially when they lose their most motivated families and students. This is not simply a matter of transferring money from Peter to Paul, but crippling Peter to enrich Paul.”
Substitute the phrase “high performance magnet schools” for charter schools and insurt local in front of public schools. The same argument will apply. The local public school building will lose funding as money is transferred to the high performing magnet, the local public school will lose the most motivated families and students.
I also want to find a long discussion about why LG believes students leaving the local public school will destroy the community and the statement by a traditional high school principal that choice in th public school system was destroying her traditional high school in Florida. I should be able to find them in a day or two.
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You’re reading into my facetious reply. I do not support starving neighborhood schools so they can be replaced by charter schools..
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Do you support starving neighborhood schools to fund high performing magnet schools?
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The column cut off the full URL for this article. “Nonprofiteers: how to lobby like a corporation and pay taxes like a charity”:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Nonprofiteers%3A+how+to+lobby+like+a+corporation+and+pay+taxes+like+a…-a015204933
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I believe that all schools deserve equitable funding and adequate resources. I don’t believe in starving schools, especially for the purpose of trying to prove that they are lost causes, so they can be given away to privatizers, which seems to be happening a lot in my city. I have yet to see a well resourced selective enrollment school here either starved or privatized, although that could be down the road..
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Reinvent, please respond to Chemtchr’s analyses of your work. Given your absolute certainty that this “innovation” is effective you should provide substantive information about its efficacy. ‘Substantive’ means you defend the program with realistic, meaningful data that shows kids learned something.
Let’s hear it. We can’t wait. China and Korea are surging ahead of us.
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This is the essential philosophy of the Waldorf private schools and one the self appointed reformers should read. It is what they would want for THEIR children:
Teachers in Waldorf schools are dedicated to generating an inner enthusiasm for learning within every child. They achieve this in a variety of ways. Even seemingly dry and academic subjects are presented in a pictorial and dynamic manner. This eliminates the need for competitive testing, academic placement, and behavioristic rewards to motivate learning. It allows motivation to arise from within and helps engender the capacity for joyful lifelong learning.
The Waldorf curriculum is broad and comprehensive, structured to respond to the three developmental phases of childhood: from birth to approximately 6 or 7 years, from 7 to 14 years and from 14 to 18 years. Rudolf Steiner stressed to teachers that the best way to provide meaningful support for the child is to comprehend these phases fully and to bring “age appropriate” content to the children that nourishes healthy growth.
I don’t believe anyone at the Gates foundation or the Duncan DOE (one in the same) has a grasp on child development, intrinsic motivation or curriculum design. Do they even care to learn themselves?
Full site: http://www.whywaldorfworks.org/02_W_Education/index.asp
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Check out this photo…I wonder if Arne was around?
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Reinvent_ED says:
December 29, 2012 at 8:30 pm
“Experience isn’t all its cracked up to be”?????? Tell that to a surgery patient.
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Imagine…he has been spooked by a group of middle aged (possibly pre, peri and post menopausal females) teachers who know their stuff. He hasn’t been back. Not so tough after all. Experience doesn’t matter unless you actually work with children every day. Happy New Year 🙂 !
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A Happy New Year to you, as well…as I recover fom my latest hot flash. 😛
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Dr. Ravitch did warn us about the false proxy trap in this post: https://dianeravitch.net/2012/11/19/the-false-proxy-trap/
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I hope he learned that the least effective strategy is to provide misinformation to teachers and then tell them to go and do their homework.
We did just that and then provided the correct data to him. He reminded me of too many high paid PD consultants brought into schools to teach teachers about the latest fad.
The grade in my book for this profiteer with stale ideas, recycled faux “reform” talking points and outright lies is an F.
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“Experience isn’t all its cracked up to be”?????? Tell that to a surgery patient.”
Or just try saying that about the chef in a restaurant.
After spending much of my career teaching a lot of people who thought they already knew how to teach because they spent years in classrooms as students, I cringed when I heard people like Oprah and Martha Stewart say they believe they are teachers.
It’s a whole different ball game when you are performing and don’t need to know anything about the people in your audience, let alone interact with each one of them daily and promote their physical, cognitive and social-emotional development.
Not to mention TFA and all the other non-educator “reformers,” out to dictate policies in our field, who think that neither experience nor formal training are necessary in education.
Thinking you know how to teach because you were a student is like spending every day eating at your mom’s kitchen table and then declaring that you have become a master chef.
Is there any other field people say that about –no experience or training necessary– and so easily get away with it??
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To ReinventEd : what about the students who don’t “score” high enough? They’re sent back to public school!!! THe Public school who’s lost precious time while a student is provided no supports or accommodations. Lost time, and we have to make that up!
Also Special Education students are many times not accepted in charters! How can this be right?
Every school would look good if you could cherry pick your students. This is the USA and my tax dollars should not be used to discriminate against students with disabilities.
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I am not reading the various posts because I am certain they are nearly 100% character assassinations, and I have seen a few familiar screen names bashing me on Ed Week, sad to say. Let me set the record straight for Diane and co:
1. I am happy to call myself a DFER. If you know DFER’s platform, public charter schools are only one part of their position. What I will not stand for is for folks like Diane to say that charter schools “are evil.” That is an absolute. There are many successful charter schools and there are some that are clearly not and being mismanged. But you all continue to generalize about an outlier school when what is more important is to have better regulatory policies in place. Look at how many traditional public schools are mismanaged, even in Georgia where i reside (google “Dekalb Public Schools” for an example).
2. I am dumbfounded at everyone being quick to make wild, incorrect assumptions about people’s motives and character. This is supposed to be about commenting on the issues and I will not get baited into immature, mindless discussions like this. Can’t you all just discuss the issues and not make uninformed attacks on someone? Would you want your students to act this way?
3. You always start with the position that “you were never a teacher so how can you be credible.” I am proud of my entire career and have been fortunate to help plant the seed to found to incredible nonprofit organizations in Atlanta, and both were done when I had ZERO direct experience in doing those particular things! Experience is not the only thing the matters here, folks. What matters is that you have a vision and you are able to apply your skills to new situations. That’s what we’re supposed to be teaching our students, but we’re not. I am proud of having been able to attract talented individuals to help me execute my vision. It was NEVER about me, contrary to what all of you want to say.
4. I am NOT anti-teacher but am not supportive of a broken system. When all sides start focusing on interests and not positions, maybe we’ll be able to fix public education. You can’t be in denial any longer. No matter what metric you use, we are not delivering a quality education to the majority of students, particularly in at-risk urban communities.
5. I will NOT debate you on TED on this blog. You can disagree with my 2-minute “talk,” but I did NOT help create one of the most successful TEDx events IN THE WORLD to further my own agenda. TED is not a political organization and I keep that work outside of my education reform work.
I would like 2013 to be the year of compromise for the sake of our children. But I know that I will find deaf ears on this blog because you are all too quick to discount folks like myself for having no experience and for believing that we need to do things differently than what we’ve done for more than a century. But most of all, I would appreciate it if you would stop making personal attacks on me or any education reformer for that matter. I stand behind everything I have accomplished and will continue to fight for what I believe are in the best interests of my children, and our nation’s children, which is for real reform in public education. My hope is that teachers will try and make themselves a part of the solution, not a barrier preventing sound solutions from becoming reality.
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Your biggest mistake is not reading the posts as many are trying to educate you. How do you know others do not have a vision if you haven’t read the comments, links, and suggestions?
Why should we then take the time to read your lengthy post?
It is obvious that your opinion trumps all and your one sided view only proves the points being made, which you say you haven’t read.
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To Reinvent ED:
I had no idea you were associated with the Wall Street hedge fund group DFER.
You have a very angry and aggrieved tone.
Might you be willing to cite a single example of my writing on this blog or anywhere else that all charters are “evil”? Since you put the statement in quote marks, the casual reader might think you were quoting me but you were not.
If you can’t make a genuine effort to be civil–and not to lie, as you did in this instance–I will politely ask you not to participate in the discussion.
My rules for participation are minimal: disagree with me or anyone else as much as you wish, but be civil, and no insulting me personally.
It’s my blog, my living room, and those are my rules.
If you can’t live by these expectations, post somewhere else.
Diane Ravitch
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Thanks for making another generalization about DFER = Wall Street Hedge Fund.
Diane, I’ve been quite civil and will continue to be civil so long as folks don’t attack my character or make wild assumptions about my motives without really knowing the facts.
I am angry when I am personally attacked. I challenge your positions and will do so when appropriate without attacking your values. You have written several posts insinuating that competition is bad, even writing about this in the context of Newtown. You appalled me and others when you insinuated that the teachers acted courageously BECAUSE they were part of a union, and leaving others to assume correctly that you also meant that TFA teachers would not have acted similarly.
You may not state it explicitly, but it is quite apparent of your disdain for public charter schools and your belief that they will destroy public education. We can agree to disagree that public choice is a good thing for public education. We are going to parallel path ed reform so long as the “system” does not fix itself, sad to say.
My hope is that DFER will continue be a vehicle that helps reform our education system. There are good people there fully committed to improving our system.
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For someone who doesn’t like assumptions you really are making a fool of yourself.
The leap that because Newtown teachers were unionized means other teachers wouldn’t have don’t the same is sick and it was never within Diane’s message. NEVER. You are grasping at straws as the curtain falls on the privatization circus.
You assumed this yourself or you took your tip from the TFA/DFER pit bulls.
You are absolutely ridiculous and an embarrassment.
I am a Connecticut teacher. I am a union teacher. That was never said or implied. I lost a friend that day.
You should be ashamed of yourself!
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Linda, unfortunately, there was no educating being done. I made no mistakes. I saw a glimpse and quite frankly, I saw “enough.” It was people saying I don’t know anything and that “this is the way we see it, and there’s no way we will think otherwise.” There is a way to talk to people and I have not seen any examples of that on this blog. It all went wrong when you and others decided to make assumptions about my motives and values. So until there is a foundation of respect and civil discourse, there is nothing to talk about.
So don’t read my post, Linda. I will continue to fight for what is right and you will hopefully see more of my activities in 2013. I don’t expect you to agree with my position, but I do expect civility and not personal attacks on folks who differ with the “establishment.”
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It works one way with the deformers…bash unions, bash public schools, bash public school teachers…create an exaggerated crisis….throw all of us under the bus and then when the privitizers are criticized they act shocked and indignant.
There is no way you took the time to read any of these.
Chemtchr at 8:36 am on December 30 speaks directly to you.
Yes, there is “educating being done”. You refuse to learn or process other points of views and you are using the “assumptions” argument as a crutch.
Your feelings were hurt and now you are taking your ball home and you don’t want to play anymore.
We will continue to fight because we ARE the real deal.
We see kids. We hear kids. We touch kids. We TEACH kids. We live students first.
WE are the real teachers of the USA.
You cannot create a war against the workforce of our public schools and leave unscathed.
Education is the only industry in our country where failure is blamed on the workers and not the leadership.
Reread your comments…..you insulted all of us! We aren’t taking it anymore.
Happy New Year!
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Unfortunately, that sounds like the battle cry of the NEA and now you are the one who has their feelings hurt.
Linda, teachers are work in a flawed system. There is a difference in what i mean. Seems that everyone believes I insulted teachers. If we could create a system where teachers were revered as they are in places like Korea and Singapore, then we’d be onto something. That means, teachers need to be better educated, better trained, better compensated and better evaluated. The problem is that we have to come to an agreement on what defines an “effective teacher” and agree on an evaluation system that all parties will support. And, perhaps to your surprise, I do not mean a majority of a rubric tied to test scores! Quantitative measures must be created, but in a balanced manner. Not going to go off on tangents right now – this was supposed to be about the profit motive!
Happy new year to you as well.
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Once again you do it…you don’t want assumptions made about you but you make assumptions and label it as a union statement.
We will not look to you to define an effective teacher. That I now know for sure.
You do not value teachers or the profession despite your personal testimony about knowing a few. It appears you are overwhelmed with your own notions and that is your priority.
Sticking to your reformy talking points vs. learning new information from those in the trenches has created and will prolong your myopic view.
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Al, you insulted many people here with your generalization that 99% of readers on this blog resist innovation and your insinuation that public schools are not meeting the “needs” of students in the 21st century. It appears that you haven’t read posts that show evidence to the contrary on here. So basically you can make ad hominem arguments but woe to those who attempt at countering them?
Experience with teaching actual living, breathing thinkers truly does matter. Superman philosophies, while admirable, do very little in the classroom. Would you take my challenge and spend a year or two observing classrooms in an attempt to further educate yourself on how we all can improve the system FOR ALL LEARNERS? You certainly have the passion for it–I do not understand why someone as seemingly intelligent as yourself would not want to learn from all aspects of education.
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LG, I appreciate your comments, but frankly, I do not see how I insulted anyone. I only defended my integrity after folks on this blog questioned mine FIRST. There are some great teachers that have been hamstrung by a failing system. Nothing on here was “personal.” NOT ONCE did I attack an individual’s personal character. Folks like chmteacher have been insulting mine for a long time. LG, I have many friends who are teachers and I have been in many classrooms. I have the research and I come to my conclusions based on research and data. I do not believe that self-interest groups on either side are helping the situation very much. “El Sistema,” is not a superman philosophy. There is plenty of research done on social and emotional learning programs and why programs like the Atlanta Music Project are providing students “outside the classroom” with the skills that will help them “inside the classroom.”
I am working on projects that will help ALL LEARNERS, and the ones who need it most are the ones in at-risk, urban areas. In Georgia, the statistics don’t like. APS is not graduating ONE OUT OF TWO students! That means, our society will likely be footing the bill for all of these dropouts. We have to do things differently, and we have to find collaborative solutions. What I won’t do is spend countless hours providing everyone with all of the research that supports reform. A few bad charter schools do not mean the entire movement is irrational, flawed, or “evil” as Diane would say.
I speak Japanese, and I have spent considerable time in China and Korea. I see the type of student they are churning out. We may find their methods “troubling,” but they’re going to win the next gen jobs if we don’t change course.
LG, I appreciate your efforts in trying to be “civil” here, and just know that I have a VERY open mind and am not naive about public education. But what I do mind very much is when the discussion starts with hostility and folks trying to label you as a profiteer or “inexperienced” or egotistical.
There are some great teachers, but there are many teachers who should not be in a classroom, and until there is agreement on teacher training, compensation and evaluation, we face major challenges with education reform. Just like I, nor my children, should ever have a bad coach in sports or any other endeavor, they should not have poor teachers. A great teacher is a gift (my mother was one), but a poor teacher who is unable to improve can have material adverse effects on a child’s development.
Lets fix this together.
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A quick refresher of your comments which you consider to NOT be insults:
1. “Folks like YOU refuse to accept ideas…”
2. “You just want homogenous thinking….”
3. “You are part of the problem…you will be on the outside looking in.”
4. To LG…”it’s amazing you are a teacher…”
5. “Your comments are pathetic”
6. “You need to accept the fact that many teachers are not trained to integrate……..to project based learning.”
7.”99% of the readers if this blog will never accept real reforms”
8. “You are just protecting the status quo”
Comments one and two could apply to you as well.
Comment #3 is inaccurate; we are on the inside every day.
Comment 4 and 5 are rude and don’t forget you didn’t want to be insulted.
Comment 6 is wrong, wrong, wrong. You need to visit more public schools. I think you got an invite from LG.
Comment 7..YOU know what 99% of the readers will and will not accept….a big egotistical, no?
Comment 8….what is the status quo, Al? Twelve years of testing?
So if you want to fix this together (the Exxon Mobil slogan) stop making assumptions yourself and stop insulting the workforce.
Also, please go back to 8:46 on 12/30 and respond to chemtchr. She had some keep insights.
By the way WE spend countless hours too. This is not just about
you and your ideas for “reform”.
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Thanks for refreshing my memory. How about we put these comments in sync with what triggered them? I don’t have time for “tit for tat” here. When you make sweeping assumptions about a person’s motives or values, they will respond in kind. I believe that is what transpired here.
I stand behind some of my comments above. 99% of the readers on this blog will fall in line with the positions of the NEA. Again, Linda, re comment 8, you made a false assumptions. Chmteacher has lambasted me for too long and I will not respond to someone who is disrespectful from the outset.
Time to move onto other issues. We can “agree to disagree.” I hope your colleagues in GA will realize that we can do great things for our children if we work together, rather than spending time assuming that my comments were so insulting to your inner core. Just do me a favor – TRY and stop making assumptions about a person’s motives and values. You don’t know me and I don’t know you. I know that my efforts are saving kids’ lives in Atlanta, and they are happening because, as LG stated on another Ravitch blog post, that music and art should happen “after school.”
I hope you can find the courage to embrace change instead of feeling that every new reform effort is the coming of the evil empire.
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Sorry for typos. On iPhone. And in your respone here you acknowledge your greatness again and you only. Imagine great acts and wonderful achievements are being made in public schools everyday and somehow they happen without you. I really don’t think you see how pompous and self righteous you are. We embrace change all the time. You haven’t a clue and you just keep repeating the same slogans. Good grief…. Get over yourself!
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” I know that my efforts are saving kids’ lives in Atlanta, and they are happening because, as LG stated on another Ravitch blog post, that music and art should happen ‘after school.’ ”
ACK! Reading comprehension is not very innovative, but it is very useful.
I NEVER said nor will I ever say that music and art should happen after school.
I was quoting and responding to the horrific comments of one Veronica Berbosa regarding the Rocketship Model quoted in Jersey Jazzman’s blog here: http://jerseyjazzman.blogspot.com/2012/12/rocketship-poor-kids-dont-deserve-music.html?m=1
“VERONICA BARBOSA: I wish we could have art and music in the school, but at the same time if you want your child to have that in their life, you can make the effort to try and get it, like, after school or on the weekends.”
Please do not put words in my mouth, especially such destructive ones.
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Evidently that is what they do best until it comes back to haunt them and then we are being uncivil.
So touchy when they are questioned, I wonder why?
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My sister-in-law is from Venezuela, so I’ve known about the music advocacy program and always have admired it. It is important to note that music is a very large part of the Venezuelan culture–children learn to play the cuatro or maracas like American children learn to play football and video games, so creating a public interest in music is not difficult. As well, the work ethic and countless hours of student involvement along with the support from community and family alike are the program’s greatest allies. Any program that provides hours and hours of positive mentoring and instruction outside of the regular school day can be successful.
Do you see American public schools devoid of a strong work ethic or lacking hours of student involvement? I don’t–however I see cultural influences in some at-risk communities so unsupportive of basic needs let alone of higher levels of academic thinking/learning that no school will ever be able to conquer them. After-school programs that give attention to at-risk children have been found to be successful because they create positive community experiences for those whose home situations are less than ideal and whose neighborhoods are rife with danger during the time of day where students are left to community influences.
On the other side of the coin, countless communities with children who are safe and well cared-for have excellent schools where students are prepared to go on to be successful citizens. The problems that programs like El Sistema counter are prevalent in at-risk communities, yet “reform” movements are poised to destroy the successful systems in an attempt to help their counterparts. Some “reformers” have taken the “reform” movement as an opportunity to push forward socio-political agendae that favor an elite cultural concept. El Sistema is successful because it provides training hours that are impossible to fund en masse in a national school system. So while programs such as El Sistema are admirable, they are not providing anything that is so very innovative in education.
What’s the lesson? Positive support beyond the school day and student responsibility along with dedicated teachers who have the academic freedom to uphold expectations create successful experiences. Providing you can convince families to support learning, how do you fund all those extra teaching hours? With volunteers? And if so, how do you trust the quality, work-ethic, and dedication of the volunteers? If the mentors are not volunteers, who pays for their time and training? People gotta eat, as it were.
I do not mean to over-simplify the issue, but in a nutshell, we already know the answers: Help your communities by providing support for the citizens in them instead of spewing rhetoric about how public schools are not providing the impossible.
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Your last two sentences….I wonder why hedge fund managers would not be interested in that solution?
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I wonder, as well. After all, hedge fund managers care about people and communities…or is that profits and commodities? I always confuse those. It’s got to be my antiquated 19th century thinking getting in the way of true innovation. I’ll look for an online course to rectify my thought-processing issues straight away. Would not want to be left outside looking in.
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ReinventEd, you’re refusing to answer two very specific posts, on the grounds that you feel insulted from previous discussions on Edweek. The posts are, in fact, much more polite than your own, or the other commenters you are able to read. Your reluctance is because of the substance of my posts, I think.
One of my questions here quotes you at length attacking elected school boards. That’s a substantive question, which deserves an answer. It isn’t a personal attack, except insofar as the content of the quotes is so repellent it reflects on you. You don’t get to engage in political attacks yourself, then plead the vapors whenever somebody calls you on it.
The second post has your video clip embedded in it. You denounce teachers repeatedly for not recognizing the value of the “technology” you are promoting, so it isn’t a personal attack to ask you to substantiate that value. If you won’t or can’t, you’ve damaged your own consulting brand.
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Bravo! Yes, that is what I wanted him to read and respond to. He is deflecting. Al…you don’t want to be on the outside looking in, do you?
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3rd try: This strange URL has a series of three dots in it which might be preventing the link from working, but it’s worth the read if you can see it and copy and paste it into your browser:
“Nonprofiteers: how to lobby like a corporation and pay taxes like a charity”:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Nonprofiteers%3A+how+to+lobby+like+a+corporation+and+pay+taxes+like+a…-a015204933
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