Emily Kaplan taught second-grade in a “no-excuses” charter school, and now teaches in a public school. EduShyster offered her space on her blog to explain a very serious concern about the future of children who are pushed too hard and too early to master academic skills.
Every day in the charter school began with the recitation of a creed. Every child was required to “track” the teacher (with their eyes) and to dress precisely as the rule book decreed. Behavioral expectations were ironclad.
Kaplan writes:
This school is obsessed with success. Its students chant about it daily; its walls are plastered with banner-sized recipes in bold fonts and bright colors. And its proponents claim that, because it has the highest test scores in the state, it has achieved it.
These test scores don’t tell the whole story, of course, but they are also not meaningless. The school’s youngest students— children of color from
predominantly low-income families— can do a lot. These five-, six-, and seven-year-olds who start each day by pumping their fists into the air while chanting about success are articulate in person and on the page; they are perspicacious readers and creative, rational mathematicians. The nine hours a day they spend in classrooms named after four-year colleges— where every lesson is aligned to a standard and cut-out caterpillars with their names on them publicly climb the Reading Level Mountain—enable them to attain academic milestones earlier than their peers in more traditional school environments, where children spend six-hour school days engaged in less direct instruction and more play-based, child-driven exploration.*
If the early attainment of academic skills—coupled with constant, explicit messaging about the necessity of pursuing long-term goals—were a primary determinant of long-term success, it stands to reason that the young children at this “no-excuses” school would continue, unobstructed and ahead of the curve, on their “path to success.” But they don’t.
Once children at this school reach adolescence, they struggle. Their high school entrance exam percentiles are far lower than those of their state standardized tests, and they are not admitted in large numbers to the most selective high schools. At the high schools they do attend, they struggle: in their first semester, 81% of last year’s ninth graders earned below a 3.0 grade point average. Existing evidence indicates that these students— who have spent their entire educational careers, from kindergarten onward, in classrooms named after four-year colleges, striving toward big long-term goals like Excellence and Success— aren’t graduating from college in large numbers. They aren’t Excelling, and the extent to which they are even Succeeding is debatable.
So why is this? Why do children who learn to read earlier than their peers do so poorly in ways that matter later on? Why do children for whom every aspect of their education, from kindergarten onward, is tailored toward graduating from college so often struggle to graduate from college?
Reflecting on my experiences teaching both at this school and at more traditional public schools, I find myself wondering if the methodology that enables young children to achieve so much so early actually hinders their long-term prospects. What if the struggles of graduates of “no excuses” schools reveal deficits that are not academic, but rather socioemotional? What would happen if, instead of spending nine hours a day engaged in academic tasks determined by a teacher, children were to spend a large portion of their day developing “soft skills” that would enable them to overcome the hurdles they will encounter when they’re older? What if, like their suburban counterparts, they spent large portions of their day in rigorous, developmentally appropriate activities: learning to make friends, make art, and make believe, exploring and creating their interests and their identities?
That is, what if a necessary component of improving the long-term prospects of small children from disadvantaged backgrounds is not accelerating through childhood, but purposefully lingering in it?…
Pushing children to attain academic skills they will attain regardless— while depriving them of other, more developmentally appropriate activities that would enable them to succeed independently when they are older— is short-sighted at best. Implementing a more developmentally appropriate curriculum for young children might result in lower test scores in the short term, but I suspect that its long-term effects— both in terms of test scores and more relevant measures of success— would compensate. (This solution, however, is admittedly incomplete; I suspect that in order to set children living in poverty on a true “path to success,” communities require resources and support that no school on its own is capable of providing.)
We really have very little information about the long-term effects of pushing children to behave like little soldiers and requiring them to master academic skills instead of playing and socializing.
I recall a conversation with the president of a liberal arts college a few years ago who told me that it had accepted a number of charter school graduates from one of the best charter chains. Few of them could read complex texts or interpret material that required critical thinking. That’s an anecdote, not research. But it raises questions about the value of militaristic education and whether it helps children or improves education.

Actual data on this sort of thing needs to be made available. This article doesn’t provide links, unfortunately.
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This is a very interesting subject that I find myself wondering about often as I teach my fourth grade public school students.
There are so many factors that contribute to a person’s development other than academics. Yet the data driven, outcomes obsessed, education reform model is unable to stop itself from teaching people as if they were training dogs.
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Even dogs need a “human touch.”
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My philosophy as a parent with four children was to develop a well rounded individual with a multitude of experiences well beyond the the realm of the public school system. While my motto for their schooling was to “do your best”, winning awards and top honors was not on my to do list for my kids.
All four are hard workers who excel in whatever job they undertake. They have leadership skills (which are innate and not learned) and a value system which makes me proud to be their parent.
I would never have submitted them to the intensity of a “no excuses” charter school. My goal, especially for my dyslexic son, was to find knowledgable teachers with a kind heart who would nurture my children, not treat them like they were in boot camp. It wasn’t hard to pick them out – most fit the bill at the public schools in my district.
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How these charter schools force children to behave and chant sounds like what children had to do to survive during Mao’s Cultural Revolution in China.
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Yes, why no data to back up anything she says?
I’m particularly interested in “pushing children to attain academic skills they will attain regardless”. That’s a huge assumption.
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Did you push your children to walk? Did they learn to walk anyway? Do you think it would have helped had you pushed them when they were 3 months? Maybe they would have learned to walk sooner? Would it have made a difference?
Now, granted, learning to, say, read or do math are not as automatic as learning to walk. But they’re not far behind and they’re similar in some ways. A large part of the reason kids learn to walk is because they are curious and they are driven to explore their world. Some of the same drive also drives kids to learn to read. But only when they’re ready. Trying to teach a 3 month old to walk is an exercise in failure – you simply can’t do it, they’re not at all ready for it. Pushing a six or eight month old child may, possibly, be more effective. But in the end it’s best to wait until the child is pulling himself up and then supporting his walking by allowing him to hold onto your fingers. And anyway, kids who learn to walk at 9 months don’t generally become “better walkers” than kids who learned at 14 months.
In the same way, yes, you can push kids to learn to read early to some extent. But there is a point before which they simply aren’t ready at all, and even after that you really don’t gain much by pushing. Wait until the child understands what reading is and what they can gain from it and then support them in developing the skill at their own pace and time. Kids who learn to read at age 4 or 5 don’t typically become “better readers” than kids who learn to read at 6 or 7. In fact, they may simply learn to hate reading.
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Dienne,
I don’t disagree with anything that you said. But, the author is not talking about kids who aren’t yet ready for the material.
She says “The school’s youngest students— children of color from
predominantly low-income families— can do a lot. These five-, six-, and seven-year-olds … are articulate in person and on the page; they are perspicacious readers and creative, rational mathematicians.”
She is arguing that this is a false accomplishment because the students do less well later. Without any data to back this up, this is dubious. All else being equal, would you predict better outcomes for a child at this age with high test scores vs. low? And, if the point is that there is something that the children are missing out on, where’s the data that makes the case that that thing is so important that we shouldn’t be setting the bar high for these children?
And, are those expectations really that different than the collective (home and school) expectations that kids from higher SES families are getting?
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John – having high expectations is not the issue, it’s the manner in which the results “are achieved (if they are actually achieved)” that’s the problem. I would remove my children from a boot camp type educational system. If I would not subject my own kids to these schools, why would I support them for other people’s children?
I have seen the differences between suburban and urban schools through my experiences as a teacher and a parent. I have also worked in rural settings. While there are differences, EVERY CHILD deserves to be treated with love and respect.
Yes, there are those who fight the constraints of a school. I’ve worked one on one with these trouble makers. They all have some redeeming qualities, even if their skills vary and the results of their efforts are “unacceptable” to the Federal and/or State Government.
I can’t think of a single child who would have benefitted from these indoctrinization tactics. If anything, they need to be taught how to overcome their adversities, not how to walk in lockstep.
Desperate parents might be convinced that this technique will work, but the evidence does not seem to be backing up the rhetoric.
As far as I’m concerned it’s back to the drawing board. Why not replicate all those private schools that our leaders use to educate their own children? Why let our kids participate in a “rejected” (by the elite) strategy?
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flos56,
I think your choice of language is telling. You say that kids who have behavioral challenges need to overcome their adversities, and we agree. But, you then say they don’t need to learn to “walk in lockstep”. I would say they need to learn to follow directions.
All students deserve love and respect, but it is not loving a student to tolerate their misbehavior and allow it to continue. It is facilitating their way to dropping out.
I don’t support schools that have rules for the sake of rules. But, I equally don’t support schools that don’t enforce the rules they have; especially those related to student safety.
It is also disrespectful of parents who choose these schools to imply that they are desperate and misinformed. That is you projecting your decision making criteria on them.
It is also nonsense to think that students from low income homes with much less support, literacy, etc. in the home need the same from school as the children of wealthy elites.
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flos56,
“I think your choice of language is telling. You say that kids who have behavioral challenges need to overcome their adversities, and we agree. But, you then say they don’t need to learn to “walk in lockstep”. I would say they need to learn to follow directions.
All students deserve love and respect, but it is not loving a student to tolerate their misbehavior and allow it to continue. It is facilitating their way to dropping out.
I don’t support schools that have rules for the sake of rules. But, I equally don’t support schools that don’t enforce the rules they have; especially those related to student safety.
It is also disrespectful of parents who choose these schools to imply that they are desperate and misinformed. That is you projecting your decision making criteria on them.
It is also nonsense to think that students from low income homes with much less support, literacy, etc. in the home need the same from school as the children of wealthy elites.”
John’s comment
My response:
I agree that the skill of following directions is essential for a successful educational experience – not via chanting, but by truly understanding how to respond to what’s being asked. In my library lessons I had an emphasis on following directions often through games and other interactive activities (since library skills can be boring I had to find ways to spice up the learning process).
I also agree that misbehaviors, especially those that distract from others’ opportunity to learn, should not be tolerated (while that is an important issue, it is not relevant here except for the fact that the non-nonsense schools use bullying tactics to prevent acting out or, if the student can’t conform, other methods to remove them from the program). The reasons behind these “naughty” behaviors are varied as are the techniques (or lack thereof) to deal with them. Another whole blog or two.
I believe that most parents want what is best for their child. My main complaint is that their choice is sometimes based on misinformation. I have known frustrated parents that have sought out charter schools as a panacea for their child only to be frustrated when that charter closed. I’ve also seen parents send their child from one school to another (whether public or charter) blaming the teachers when it is their child’s behaviors or lack of proper school manners which gets them kicked out time after time. I also know parents who send their children to a charter to get them away from the riff raff or because they want their children in a school representing their race (both black and white). My choices for my own children are irrelevant to this discussion except that I wanted them in an environment where they felt valued as well as safe and secure.
And I know that children who come from a disadvantaged homelife need even more support than those from families who can provide the extras, but I feel the issues are much broader than that. If only it were that simple we could have resolved the inequities back in the 1960s when A Nation At Risk was published. But whether or not your parents have money does not negate the fact that ALL children need to be loved and cherished. No child should have to endure an abusive situation where they are ridiculed or made to feel substandard.
I always treated my students the same way I wanted my own children to be treated. If they deserved to be punished – so be it. If they deserved to be rewarded – good for them. If they were were not treated fairly – my voice was heard. I advocated the same way for my kids and my students. It’s what they all deserve – no matter which school they attend.
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John, the most expensive private schools in NYC do not push their students to do these things at such a young age. On the contrary, most of them are far less “rigorous” in elementary school than the regular public schools, let alone the “no excuses” charter schools.
And yet by middle and high schools those private school students do very well academically, despite not getting the so-called “rigor” at age 5 and 6. I am not saying that charters (or any schools) need to embrace extreme progressivism, but the notion that no excuses actually helps any students is one for which there is no data. And there is plenty of data that “no excuses” results is more about how many of the students the charters can weed out than anything else.
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NYC public school parent,
I think we can agree that the parent/family situations of the students in the most expensive private schools in NYC are very different than those of these students, and that it can’t be assumed that what they need to be successful is the same thing. As you probably know, college attainment for the lowest academic performers from high income households is about the same as for the highest academic performers from low income households. In other words, affluent students can achieve the same results with much less work. Not fair, but accurate.
There *is* data that no excuses charters get positive results for urban kids, even while factoring for attrition. See CREDO urban schools study, Mathmatica KIPP study, etc. Where is the “plenty of data” that shows that no excuses charters don’t work? The lack of SA admissions to selective high schools is a data point, but that would indicate that they get results, but don’t work well enough (e.g. can’t compensate for all of the obstacles that low income kids face as pointed out by retired teacher).
I’m not saying it’s necessarily the right approach, but the original post does nothing to make the case that it’s the wrong one. I think it’s too convenient to say that we don’t have to push kids to work hard. It’s certainly easier on everyone including kids and parents.
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John,
The fact that not a single Success Academy – the schools I believe this writer is referring to – student gained entry to any of NYC’s specialized high schools is an indicator of how misguided (to be charitable) these kinds of schools are.
Even by the invalid metric of test results, these schools are failing many of their students, since their rigid and authoritarian practices do not readily transfer outside of the extremely insular world of a “no excuses” environment.
Eva Moskowitz constantly defames the public schools she seeks to expropriate real estate from, and endlessly boasts of her schools’ test scores, yet they so far they are proving to be empty boasts, if not outright lies. Her students can excel on state exams, for which they receive detailed test prep materials from the test’s publisher, but once outside the walls of her Skinner box boot camps, where competence is defined by more than obedience, rote learning and multiple choice test scores, they falter.
So-called reformers are always telling us, in the the sanctimonious and insipid style we’ve come to expect, that “it’s all about the kids,” but they’re lying, and their lies are demonstrated by the many ways they ignore the realities of childhood, children’s needs, and the ways ways and pace in which children learn.
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Michael,
The fact that none of the SA students that have completed 8th grade (about 60 at this point?) were among the 260 black students city-wide to pass the SHSAT isn’t really data yet. I can’t find any data on participation and passing rates for economically disadvantaged students, but those for non-Asian minorities are small. Do you have any basis for saying that some of those students should have been admitted but weren’t because of the education that they received at SA?
And are you trying to make the point that the SHSAT measures some kind of “real world” measure that NYS test don’t? Sounds like a big rationalization of SA’s test scores as somehow being not important in discussing educational options.
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John,
I don’t know how many SA graduates applied to enter NYC elite high schools. I believe it was 32 the first year, not sure how many took the test the second year. None has passed. Not one. That’s surprising from a charter chain that boasts the highest test scores in the state. What gives? At least some black kids from public schools get in but not one from SA.
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“As you probably know, college attainment for the lowest academic performers from high income households is about the same as for the highest academic performers from low income households. In other words, affluent students can achieve the same results with much less work.”
The only reason “college attainment” for the lowest academic performers from high income households is the same is because there are private colleges that are extremely easy to get into if you can pay the full freight, and it’s not hard to take enough classes to graduate. I mean, after all, those private school students are never tested, so who is to say whether they have achieved the same results or not? If having any kind of college degree means they have “attained” something, then you are correct, but it has nothing to do with how well they are educated. We just don’t know.
What we do know is that if you are poor, it is extremely difficult to take 4 years off from 18-22 and attend college with the luxury of not having to worry about anything else (not to mention the luxury of hiring tutors to “help” you write the papers you need to graduate.)
Your misconception that if only those poor kids were subject to the appalling “no excuses” education they could do as well as those rich kids with their private school education and graduate college is just silly.
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I resent some of your comments. I sent my kids to public school but they weren’t smart enough to get scholarships and we weren’t poor enough to get much financial help. My husband and I paid for their college education or took out loans (which at 61 I’m still repaying). In addition, my children all worked and helped with expenses.
They earned their degrees, but it wasn’t all smooth sailing – either academically or financially.
The truly wealthy who can “buy” a college education are a true minority. Most middle class families struggle to put their kids through college. Those brought up in poverty have some extra baggage, but all students, even the “smart” ones struggle to get through.
Perhaps we should be tallking about support services to assist the college bound instead of putting all the burden on the public high schools to “get the job done”. And what’s wrong with some remedial classes for subject areas where a student has a weakness? There aren’t too many DaVinci’s running around who could be considered Renaissance Men (or Women). If we truly want to help, we need to study WHY kids aren’t graduating and try to resolve those issues. Right now it’s all guess work or trial and error.
And don’t blame those who struggled through for the lack of progress for those who did not achieve a degree or denigrate their own success.
Your need to use a narrower brush when painting the picture of success and failures.
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flos56,
I was just reporting data. Of course there are students who are exceptions to it, but data clearly shows that students from the top quintile of economic advantage and lowest quintile of academic performance have the same college attainment as students from the lowest quintile of economic advantage and top quintile of academic performance.
It is an enormous disadvantage to be poor and an enormous advantage to be well off.
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John, you just proved you are not a reformer when you wrote:
It is an enormous disadvantage to be poor and an enormous advantage to be well off.
Reformers have told us for years that poverty is an excuse for bad teachers, and that poor kids can reach the top just by having TFA and high expectations.
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Diane,
“John, you just proved you are not a reformer when you wrote:
It is an enormous disadvantage to be poor and an enormous advantage to be well off.
Reformers have told us for years that poverty is an excuse for bad teachers, and that poor kids can reach the top just by having TFA and high expectations.”
You are confusing your “Mr. Reformer” strawman with actual real people. Find me one who says that it is not an enormous disadvantage to be poor as i did. The question is what to do about it. You think schools are doing great (no crisis), and to any extent that they’re not, they just need more money. Reformers think there are actually improvements that we can make. IMO, it’s hubris vs. humility.
Reformers would love to see less poverty. Most would love to see more money for education. Most just don’t believe that more money spent doing exactly what we’re doing will solve anything.
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John – it was NYS public school parents comments which offended me, but you point is interesting and I agree to a certain extent. However, there are advantages and disadvantages to both situations. Let’s face it, putting any student into a situation where they don’t have the intellectual ability to complete the required work is doing a disservice to the child no matter their family background. But all things being equal, coming from a family of wealth (with all the accoutrements that involves) is far superior than being raised in a family which not only lacks money but also the wherewithal on what it takes to be successful. (See my personal story for a better explanation).
I agree with the saying – I’ve been rich and I’ve been poor, but I’d rather be rich. (Though even while living in poverty, I was rich in the background necessary to take advantage of a good education.)
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The reason NYS has the required Regents Exams is because former Commisdioner Mills thought that too many able minded students were taking non regents courses to improve their EPA so they could get into the college of their choice. Because a few were taking advantage of the system, ALL the students in NYS have been forced to pass Five Regents exams. The upshot is that many students who would have taken all the required Regents now just take the required five (so much for rigor). The other downside is that students like my son who could have graduated with a school diploma had to drop out and settle for a GED. I have cursed Mills from the day he introduced this directive because I knew it would prevent a lot of kids from having a successful high school experience.
Little did I know that this was only the start of the concept of rigor which has invaded the Public School system. I still wonder if I should have sent my son to a less rigorous private school, but his sisters were already in college and that took up all my “spare change” and then some.
I don’t want to judge other parents for enrolling their children in the best schools they can afford and trying to give them some advantages so they can attend a decent college. However, that population is relatively small compared to the vast majority of parents who rely on the public school system to educate their children.
My philosophy was always – “I’ve given you the opportunity, what you do with it is up to you.” My daughters were typical – they got into trouble on occasion, didn’t always do their best work, often waited to the last minute to begin long term assignments, and stayed home or went to school late more often than I liked, but, in general, they were good kids who were successful in both High School and College, and are now doing well in their chosen careers (at least the two older ones, my youngest daughter is still finding herself).
Most families don’t have “contacts” to give them a leg up. It’s ironic that some of the privileged, such as Arne Duncan, find themselves in positions of authority without the intellectual ability to make informed decisions. That is the true dilemma, not whether a student gets a four on the State Assessment.
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One last point:
My husband and I had an argument:
I was born into a family with college educated parents who were doing well, but when my father died I became one of four children with a single parent without much income. We moved to the suburbs of Buffalo and while I went to an excellent public school I didn’t fit in with the affluent population. I learned that if I took more than my share, I was taking away from my siblings. Although I had the grades to go to a top notch college, I had a scholarship to SUNY at Buffalo which was just up the street. I was happy with UB and don’t regret my choice.
My husband was born into a blue collar family with an illiterate father and a mother who possibly had a high school diploma. While my home was full of books, his had none. He struggled in school, even though he is a genius in STEM. One teacher recognized his abilities and he went on to Community College and eventually transferred to UB where we met. It took him a while to hit his stride and, as I previously mentioned in another post, although he did better in the medical school classes than the future doctors, he didn’t have the pristine educational background to be accepted into medical school.
Our argument was who was at a bigger disadvantage? His family had more income than mine, yet his upbringing was totally different. I was poor, but still from a middle class family wth all the advantages. I had the grades to attend medical school, but not the desire. He needed help with his verbal and reading skills. It’s hard to speak well when intelligent conversations are rare and when your sentences are peppered with slang and curse words. Dating him was a true learning experience for me.
My point is that poverty is not necessarily the issue, it’s a component of the problem, but not the key. It’s the background of the family, the parent(s) attitude towards education, the availability of books, the ability of parents to assist and encourage their children, their willingness to work with teachers to resolve behavioral issues, and ultimately to provide a stable home life (especially hard in neighborhoods full of violence and shootings) which influences how well a child does in school regardless of their ability.
Whether you are from a white or mnority family, being a member of the middle class gives you an immeasurable advantage. This is a component to the problem which has not been addressed.
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John, EVERY student who takes the SHSAT must take it in a neutral place. Since it is a multiple choice test, there can be no ambiguity in charter school graders giving special consideration to written answers by students that public school graders don’t give. EVERY test is graded by a computer and EVERY student takes in a location away from any helpful teacher’s watchful eye.
The fact that you think the state tests are more “fair” judges of an education makes me wonder. I guess you might prefer it if the Success Academy students got to take the tests in their own special location and have specially designated graders — paid for by the charter school organization — to grade their tests separately from the tens of thousands of public school students. Then will it be a more “fair” judge of Success Academy’s ability to teach their students how to think?
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The 32 students from Success Academy who remained long enough to take the SHSAT in 8th grade (and the next group of 35 or so students who took the SHSAT the following year) were not a “random” sampling of low-income minority students. They were students who lasted through the Success Academy weeding out process to remain through 8th grade. That class started with AT LEAST twice as many students — we don’t know how many exactly, since in 1st and 2nd grade some left and ones deemed desirable were allowed to join their appropriate cohort. They supposedly had 8 or 9 years of the best education money can buy. The ones who didn’t respond to it left.
The percentage of low-income students at schools like Stuy and Brooklyn Tech is over 60%! And yes, hundreds of the students happen to be African-American and Latino each year.
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Diane,
I think it’s interesting, and I’m curious to see how the next few years go, but it’s hard to call it in any way meaningful given such small numbers of graduates and acceptances.
There were probably 50,000 black 8th graders last year coming from the 780 middle schools in NYC. .5% of black students in the city passed the test. .5% of 70 students is 0.35. So the data doesn’t even predict that a single SA student should have passed.
Is this really the data that you support drawing conclusions from regarding the suitability of an educational strategy?
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FWIW, students don’t “pass” or “fail” the SHSAT. They either get an offer of admission from one of the specialized schools or they don’t.
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Also, John — the number of black 8th graders is closer to 20,000 (see image below), and the percentage of offers that went to black students in the most recent year for which there’s data is 5%, not 0.5%.
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Thanks for the correction, Flerp, sloppy internet skills on my part. Yes, 5% of black students who took the test were admitted. I was talking about the percentage of all black students in the city that were admitted, which with the correct starting number would be 1.3% of black 8th graders in the city. That still doesn’t imply that even 1 SA student should have been among the group.
Do you know what percentage of admittances to selective high schools are students who attended selective middle schools?
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No, I don’t know that info.
I think that to the extent you’d want to do this comparison at all (personally I don’t think it’s very informative), you’d want to look at the population of students who actually took the test, not the total number of students. That would require knowing how many SA students actually took the test, but that may be knowable.
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FLERP, in the first year in which there were SA graduates of 8th grade, 32 SA students took the high school test; none was accepted to the elite high schools. I don’t know how many took the admissions test in the 2nd year, but none was accepted.
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When Success Academy boasts about its sky-high test scores, it is reasonable to expect that at least one of its students might be accepted into the city’s elite high schools. Not one was.
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Define your term “data.” It doesn’t always mean something you put in the machine.
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John do you have some connection to Success Academy?
I just find it very odd that you are trying to say that since only 1.3% of ALL African-American students in the system score high enough to be placed in a specialized high school, that we should not expect even one Success Academy student to score high enough. But looking at ALL African-American students means that you include recent immigrants, students with severe special needs, and all sorts of learning issues who would never be in the pool of test-takers of the SHSAT. Now that might be a reasonable thing to do if the 60 or so students in the last 2 eighth grade classes reflected that sample with the same proportion of kids with severe special needs or new immigrants, etc. It most certainly does NOT.
If 5% of all African American students who sit for the SHSAT are admitted to one of the specialized high schools, it stands to reason that at minimum one or two Success Academy 8th graders should be admitted. You keep implying they all went to “selective” middle schools, but the kids at selective middle schools are going to be similar to the kids at Success Academy middle schools — the ones who have proven to be committed to their academics with the ability to do well on a state test. Unless there is something untoward going on with those state test grades — among the highest in the state — there is no reason that so many Success Academy students aren’t doing well on the SHSAT. Those students are obviously hard working and have the ability. But many years of SA education seems to have hurt their ability to think.
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NYC public school parent ,
I have no involvement with SA. Can you say the same?
Your bias shows when you say that it doesn’t make sense that “so many” SA students don’t pass the SHSAT, but then go on to say that 1 or 2 probably should have. Which is it? Again, can anyone seriously use 1 or 2 students as a data point to determine the success or failure of a program? Ludicrous.
You also equate SA students with selective middle school students, but based on outcomes (ability to do well on a state test) and not inputs. There is no test to get in to SA, so it seems you are acknowledging success on their part at preparing students for the tests.
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John,
I think that every single one of the SA applicants to the selective high schools should have passed the exam and won admission. After all, these are students that have the highest test scores in the city. If they ace the state tests, why can’t they pass the high school exam? They have survived 8 or 9 years of Success Academy, and economist Caroline Hoxby said a few years ago that students who spend that much time in a NYC charter school have closed the achievement gap. Closed it! Why doesn’t every single one of them get admitted to the best high schools? Stop bragging and boasting and that would lower expectations.
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Diane,
Only 762 black students in the entire city were admitted. There are more middle schools than that, so there are plenty of schools (with way more 8th graders) that didn’t have anyone admitted.
Also, it seems that most of those admitted take SHSAT prep classes that are more than a year long and cost a lot of money. The test also covers material that is not in the regular curriculum, so kids who are not accelerated don’t do well.
I suppose SA could restructure their upper grades to target admission to these schools, but that wouldn’t make sense given how few spots there are.
I just object to using this minuscule amount of data to draw conclusions about whether SA’s program is successful, especially when there is so much other data that indicates that it is.
Time will tell how their students do at college attainment, which I think is a better measure than state tests or SHSAT.
I asked FLERP about the selective middle schools because I am wondering if there are any middle schools in NY that send more than a handful of students to selective high schools. Do you know? You expect SA to send “all” of their students there, so you must have an example of a successful school that does this, right?
It takes no skill or effort to set up strawmen and then knock them down. I guess most here have to come up with *some* rationalization for SA’s test scores since it couldn’t possibly be anything that they might be doing better.
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John – there a 5-12 school in Buffalo called City Honors which requires an entrance assessment. The Gifted and Talented School – Frederick Law Olmsted School 64 -Grades K-4 (where 70% of each grade is considered GT with a 30% neighborhood component) consistently sends a large population of its “graduates” to City Honors. The selection process is blind, meaning the evaluators don’t know the identity of the students they are assessing, While the elite send their children to this amazing Public School, there are also numerous students from all walks of life representing the diversity found in the city.
The difference between Olmsted and other schools is its location in the middle of the cultural center of Buffalo allowing for a multitude of walking field trips, a strong parents organization whose fundraising allows for numerous enrichment activities, and the Gifted and Talented component (often including all students not just the gifted) which expands the students experiences beyond the normal curriculum.
This school is as close as you’ll get to a Sidwell in the Buffalo location.
The climate of a school CAN make a difference.
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John says: “You also equate SA students with selective middle school students, but based on outcomes (ability to do well on a state test) and not inputs.”
This is a nonsensical argument. What do you mean “outcomes”? The students in selective middle schools were mainly educated in regular public elementary schools. The “input” you imply means that they came into those selective middle schools with the same high test scores at Success Academy keeps bragging its’ elementary school students achieve! You demonstrate YOUR bias by pretending that those “inputs” aren’t the same inputs that Success Academy students have. The kids in selective middle schools came from public elementary schools just the kids in Success Academy’s middle school came from their elementary school. Since Success Academy keeps telling us the test scores at their elementary schools are among the highest in the state, there is no doubt that if those kids applied, they would get into the same selective public middle schools that send kids to the specialized high schools. Are you saying that somehow the students at Success Academy who get 4s on their state tests in 4th grade would not do as well on the SHSAT as the kids from public schools who get 4s on their state tests in 4th grade? If so, you are implying two very negative things about Success Academy:
1. Their middle school is doing a poor job educating their students who score high on state tests in 4th grade so that by 8th grade they are far behind the kids in public middle schools.
2. The elementary school test scores at Success Academy reflect only excessive prepping that does not allow students to learn how to think, OR that those test scores were not accurate.
I don’t understand what else you could possibly mean when you say “inputs” because the inputs at selective middle schools include the kids who do well on their state tests in elementary school, just like the Success Academy elementary school kids supposedly do.
My point is that when NO student can score high enough for a specialized high school in a middle school that purports to have the “highest state test scores in NY State”, either there is something wrong with the test scores or something wrong with the teaching.
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I apologize if the above was confusing, but here is the bottom line.
When John refers to selective middle schools, he means middle schools who base admission on state test scores. They accept the students with good state test scores (and good report cards). I assume that if one of Success Academy’s MANY 5th graders with the “highest state tests” in NY State applied to a selective middle school, some would be accepted because they obviously have the same criteria (as John says, “inputs”) as the students at public schools that they select for admission.
But somehow John is insulting ALL of those Success Academy students by implying that none of those Success Academy top performing elementary school kids would ever be able to pass the SHSAT if they went to those selective middle schools because, frankly, they just aren’t as naturally smart as the public school students at those schools who have the SAME elementary school grades and state test scores. To John, those Success Academy students only got 4s because of SA teachers teaching them to perform beyond their natural ability. So, as is typical of the Success Academy defenders that John represents, it is the fault of the STUDENT that he isn’t doing well on the SHSAT. They just aren’t “naturally” smart like the public school students whose 4s on their state tests he believes is only due to natural ability since public school teachers just aren’t as good as SA teachers. How offensive.
It is always the fault of a student when they aren’t performing at Success Academy. And if a public school student DOES do well, it is always because they have some natural ability that Success students just don’t have.
Two kids with the SAME inputs enter middle schools. The inputs are high state test scores. But when both students take an exam in 8th grade, one scores higher. But according to John, we should blame the student’s lack of ability instead of the inferior teaching he had in middle school.
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NYC public school parent,
As usual, you are arguing with yourself.
Nothing that follows your “John says” or “According to John”, etc. is actually anything that I said.
Please find *anywhere* that I said anything negative about district students, district teachers, selective middle schools, or any of the other litany of evils you ascribe to me.
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NYC public school parent –
I think you are taking John’s comments too personally. I don’t believe he said or even implied any of the notions you attributed to his comments.
While I don’t have any experience in this situation, I have to wonder if it’s the technique used in the teaching process and the emphasis on doing well on the state assessment which holds the kids back in doing well on the entrance exam to these elite schools which are testing a different component of the child’s abilities (which has not been fully developed since it is not part of the state tests).
If the entrance exams are similar to those used for getting into City Honors in Buffalo, the emphasis is on problem solving, logic, and reasoning skills, not specific answers to general knowledge questions. If anything, it’s the exact opposite of the NYS exams.
Of course, I’m just extrapolating and I don’t want to take away anything from those hard working students at the SA schools. I also wonder, as an educator with over thirty years experience, if these young kids are burnt out before they even reach high school. If I were a researcher truly invested in improving education, I would take a look at these children to see, not just their test scores, but also their emotional responses to the whole experience.
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flos56 I am not sure what I posted that offended you, because as far as I can tell, I agree with your points. (Perhaps I missed something?)
He is defending “no excuses” charters by implying that they are not tolerating those kind of behaviors by low-income students that apparently he thinks public schools tolerate. He keeps demanding “evidence” that no excuses isn’t working. When I post that in the schools in which it IS working, there is almost always an extremely high attrition rate of kids for whom it isn’t working, he pretends that isn’t the case.
Just because the students who remain at “no excuses” charter schools after all the problem students are weeded out do well does not mean that those same well-behaved and easy to teach children would have failed to do as well in a public school that was not as rigid. In fact, a school that only seems to value performance on the state tests and “eyes on the teacher” behavior for 5 year olds is doing (in my opinion) great damage to many of those kids. Some can brush it off because they aren’t targets. But I am not convinced that the children who remain after all the attrition are not the same children who would have done well in a well-funded public school with the resources to give those children attention without harshly removing all the unwanted students. It is possible that keeping the “good” Kindergarten and 1st grade students separate and apart from the 6 year olds who aren’t “ready to learn” might make it easier to teach those “good” students. But it isn’t the “no excuses” philosophy that is the reason.
I’m sorry, but I find it offensive when I am told that poor students need “no excuses” at age 5 in order to succeed while middle class and wealthy students are free to be normal Kindergarten and 1st graders.
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I agree with everything you just said.
I have worked with disadvantaged students for years in all sorts of situations with all sorts of strategies and have not discovered a technique which works consistently. There are isolated incidents which led to amazing results.
1) A reading teacher and I (the school librarian) worked cooperatively with some below grade level readers introducing them to age appropriate, high interest, and eventually readable books. They haunted the library, trading in their borrowed books for new ones every time I was at the school (a part time position) and sometimes twice in one day. The following year we both had new assignments, but I wasn’t surprised when I discovered the reading scores had improved (this was pre-CC). She was phenomenal and I was able to supplement her program with a wide selection of reading materials. Win-win-win.
2) A fully-staffed all-day month-long elementary summer school program where the library was integrated into the curriculum (each grade was given a different country for a theme). I never worked so hard, but the results were evident and reflected in the following years test scores (also pre-CC). Summer School was open to all, but disruptive students were asked to leave the program. This school was almost 100% low economic status minority students. The staff was phenomenal and I was able to facilitate some amazing research projects and enrichment activities to go along with the curriculum.
Unfortunately, despite the results, this program was not repeated due to the cost. Instead the teachers taught remediation (instead of enrichment) in the AM while specials were offered after lunch so the staff was paid hourly instead of salaried. My job was just babysitting with combined classes to entertain. No collaboration. No integration of curriculum. Every man for themselves. I brought my A game, but when that didn’t work I had to come up with a Plan B for survival. I’m sure the administration from Downtown couldn’t understand why a full day of school wasn’t working.
It takes more than extra hours or seat time in a school to make a difference. It’s what happens during those hours which is important.
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But to answer you question NYC public school parent, I took offense at the idea that the privileged get a free ride in college. While I’m sure there are colleges where a degree isn’t worth the paper it is written on, for the most part college is a grueling experience which takes all the grit and determination you can muster to be successful. Intelligence is only one skill necessary for graduation. Time management, research skills, endurance, attendance, following vague directions, completing assignments in a timely fashion, willingness to put in your full effort, study strategies, etc all play a role. Graduating is an accomplishment for any student – wealthy or poor.
Some of the brightest and best from my high school couldn’t cut it (and they were definitely privileged). I’m currently on Facebook with some of my former students and EVERY Freshmen starts freaking out about Thanksgiving when the volume of work gets oppressive (and these were from the gifted and talented program – a mixture of majority and minority students).
I laugh at the call for Career and College ready when the true skills necessary for college success are totally ignored. Before I retired I was desperately trying to impart my wisdom and experience to as many students as possible and I continue to give them encouragement on Facebook. The valedictorian (a student who might be considered privileged by Buffalo standards) dropped out after the first semester at UB, took some time off and had to start over at another college. If anyway was academically career and college ready, it was him.
So, my point is that the majority of us, rich or poor, white or black, had to struggle to get our degrees. Nobody I know got a leg up without doing the work and I resent it when someone claims differently.
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I was an ESL teacher in a diverse suburban NYC district for many years. While public schools are portrayed as resistant to change, my district embraced a willingness to try evidence based programs to help struggling students. My elementary school became a Blue Ribbon school in 2006. We had made great strides to reduce the achievement gap through compensatory, targeted instruction and even Reading Recovery for some first graders. What we found is that when many poor African American students went to middle school, the gap widened, and for some it continued into high school. My district even ran a summer school “boot camp” to prepare African American students with college potential for advanced courses in the high school. This helped many students, but we continued to have those that lagged behind. We never fully understood why. Perhaps it has something to do with the dysfunction and poverty in their lives. Perhaps their concept-language base is too weak to comprehend complex material. Perhaps it has something to do with the inability of parents to help students move forward. While we had many poor students that completed college, we still had those that failed to thrive despite our best efforts to overcome the achievement gap.
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KIPP began the KIPP through College program because the organization noticed that students who had made it through their schools were not succeeding in college; the No Excuses approach simply did not provide students with the skills or the support network to thrive in a collegiate academic environment.
Anecdotally, I saw firsthand the reaction of charter grads (some KIPP, some not) who came to the realization that they did not yet possess the writing or analytic skills needed in college coursework. They were surprised and very frustrated as they had been told that they were winners- capable of all the academic prowess mentioned in those school chants they repeated daily. Charter school are by no means the only reason low-income and minority students have a difficult time in college, but the pedagogical methods most of them use are not helping matters.
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skat115: thank you for your comments.
😎
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I would also think that students that are trained to be so teacher dependent may not have the self management skills needed to handle an academic load with multiple deadlines and varied requirements. They may find the independence overwhelming.
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KIPP and YES Prep get college completion rates of 30-40%, which is more than 5 times the rate of students from similar economic backgrounds.
They are looking at college success factors in order to do even better, not (as you imply) because their approach isn’t working. Nothing I read implies they are backing off on “no excuses”.
Good article at http://educationnext.org/no-excuses-kids-go-to-college/.
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John,
Would you send your own child to a no-excuses charter school? I certainly would not, nor would I want my grandchildren in one of these boot camps. Do you think that black children need a different kind of education, one that is strict and requires total conformity? I think that is called colonialism.
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Diane,
It might be Colonialism if I sent other people’s children there, but if I choose it for my children, it certainly isn’t.
I don’t know (nor do you, I believe) what I would do if my child were smart and capable yet failing state exams and on track to be one of the 50% of black students that don’t graduate from high school in a district like mine.
I do know that I would do whatever I thought was in their best interests. I would be skeptical about the intentions of anyone who wanted to limit my choices; especially those that exercise their own choice by sending their own children to private schools or moving to the suburbs.
I value the opinion of each parent that has a choice of schools and exercises it, whether they opt for a charter or a district school.
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John,
The best interests of all students are served when there is a strong, vibrant public school system. To drain resources from the district to give special treatment to a tiny minority weakens the system and harms the education of hundreds of thousands of students. No high-performing nation in the world has either charters or vouchers.
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John
Yes, desperate parents do need choices
But bait and switch or shell games are doing everyone a disservice. Real answers to solutions should be explored, not failed policies.
The school I heard about on Diane’s blog that provided numerous support services and a loving, nurturing environment seemed to be achieving results. I vote for more schools like that.
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flos56,
I agree that the school Diane posted about deserves support and replication. In fact, I sent them a small donation. I think schools that are getting 5x the expected college completion rate for their alums also deserve support. We need more great schools and less ideology-driven analysis of ideas and support of good ones.
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flos56,
I agree that the school Diane posted about deserves support and replication. In fact, I sent them a small donation. I think schools that are getting 5x the expected college completion rate for their alums also deserve support. We need more great schools and less ideology-driven analysis of ideas and support of good ones.
Reply from John
My response:
Kudos
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John, you just provided the argument that the right-wingers have for vouchers. Why not give students “choice”?
Charter schools function as quasi-private schools. Unlike public schools, if you are on a charter school’s “got to go” list, then nothing — and I mean nothing — can be done to stop the charter school from making your child feel misery. And, like private schools, the charter school has an incentive to MAKE your child feel misery and leave if they don’t shape up.
So it all sounds good, until YOUR child is one of those “50% of black students” who the charter schools do NOT want to educate.
You just feel really confident that your own child would be acceptable to charter schools. The problem is the HUGE number of students who are not. What happens if your child is one of them?
Are YOU satisfied with your child being warehoused in an underfunded public school because charter schools have claimed all the resources and say that public schools where your child goes don’t need more money because hey, why shouldn’t your troublesome kid be educated in large classes when the well-behaved kids at charter schools are fine there?
If you BELIEVED half of what you say, you would actually be fighting for an all-public choice system so that private entities could not grab all the money and resources by educating the cheapest to educate kids while PRETENDING they are educating just the average kid.
It’s all fine until your child becomes the persona non grata at age 5 and 6. You think “choice” is about you, but it is ALSO about the school given the choice NOT to educate your child.
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NYC public school parent,
I get it. Despite it being illegal, you believe that charter schools get any results they get by not accepting difficult kids. You have no evidence, but believe it because you want to. That’s why you have to write paragraphs and paragraphs on it. Unfortunately, volume doesn’t make a weak argument any stronger.
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John,
Remember the “Got to Go” list? That’s evidence. Front page of the NY Times. Credible source?
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Diane,
Yes, a credible source regarding one principal at one time.
If this were constant and widespread, I don’t think there would one article on one school, there would be lots of articles and lots of lawsuits. Where are they?
Again, hardly something to based one’s worldview on.
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John, the fact that you are demanding “proof” for what even the parents at Success Academy readily admit shows all of us who you really are.
You somehow think Success Academy is welcoming to every child. But the parents who choose it do so precisely because it is NOT welcoming to every child. That’s what their public school had to be and of course, due to underfunding and cut budgets, that meant that their well-behaved kids suffered.
The problem happens when parents like you think that their child will be able to escape the difficult kids in public schools,if they “choose” Success Academy, and it turns out that their kid is one of the MANY at-risk underperforming children that Success Academy doesn’t want to teach. And because it is , as you note, illegal to just tell you up front to get your kid the heck out of their school, they simply do everything they can to make your child feel misery until they leave.
You deny that fact and claim that ONE Success Academy evil principal trained by a long-time Success Academy leader rejected all he had been taught to develop a “got to go” list. And despite this outrageous and reprehensible behavior, was given a verbal rebuke and allowed to continue to be principal. Do you really expect us to believe that?
The only thing that principal did wrong was to get caught and put in writing the policy that he was taught. The fact that you deny this makes you as dishonest as Eva Moskowitz. You’d rather pretend that Candido Brown is an evil or perhaps just a very stupid person than to acknowledge the truth. Shame on you. Really. Talk about looking for a scapegoat — I guess Mr. Brown makes a good one for you, doesn’t he?
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John, thank you for that EducationNext article (which partly reads like a KIPP advertisement, but it is still very provocative.)
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“John, thank you for that EducationNext article (which partly reads like a KIPP advertisement, but it is still very provocative.)”
Emily, you’re welcome.
I found your article interesting, and I think that the top charter networks are exploring many of the same topics. I don’t think that the data supports drawing the conclusion that the schools are doing the wrong thing, but that they need to do other things as well.
When I read things like KIPP’s College Completion Report, I am glad to see them acknowledge that despite great achievements, they acknowledge that they have a long way to go. That kind of humility seems very rare in this debate.
http://www.kipp.org/results/college-completion-report
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As a public Title 1 school that used a phonics program 30-45 min a day in kindergarten and 1st grade, I can tell you that giving kids a leg up in reading early on lays the foundation for them to have a chance at overcoming the language deficits caused by poverty. My teachers would bring their own kids to our school through 3rd grade and then send them to their own neighborhood’s middle class schools. Generally, they said that by then their kids needed to be with other kids who are more articulate and be in afterschool activities that aren’t available in our school’s low SES community. SA and KIPP are distractions. This is a class issue. Is it cynical to posit that the distractions are intentional?
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I am no fan of charter schools. However, the students in this school sound like the students in mine – severely disadvantaged. We struggle just to get them to graduate high school. We are not worrying about exam schools or college graduation to any large extent. I want to know how these charter kids do in comparison to kids that attend K8 schools with similar demographics. If their high school graduation rate is a fair bit higher than our 50%, there might be some good ideas to pull from the charter school.
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z, one good idea is to push out the ones who don’t get high scores and don’t obey the rules. Do that in your school. It works.
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z, if your school only educated the top 20% of those severely disadvantaged students your graduation rate would be 100%. And I dare say that those students would do well in college too.
THAT is what charter schools do. Educate the top % of the students. You can guarantee yourself a 100% graduation rate if you are willing to make the students who you think will NOT graduate feel enough misery to cause them to “voluntarily” leave.
Unfortunately, the charter school movement has become so dishonest that they are providing incentive for MORE charters to push out low-scoring kids instead of educating them. Because they won’t acknowledge how big a role attrition plays in those supposed “100% graduation” rates.
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NYC public school parent,
If charters educate the top % of students, why do they have higher percentages of free and reduced lunch, black students, and Hispanic students?
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John, charters like Eva’s skim the top students in the poorest communities and push out those that don’t make it.
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Diane,
Actual data to back that up or is it just an opinion or a few anecdotes?
Anything at all that shows that the school somehow only gets top students to attend and pushes low performers out?
I’m willing to look at any data with an open mind, but I’m not going to make up my mind about SA based on anecdotes or opinions. DiBlasio is no fan of SA and he has all the data. Where’s the report?
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NYC public school parent,
Also, the vast majority of kids who leave charter schools go to other charter schools, not district schools >75%.
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John, the proof is at data.nysed.gov
You can check the declining enrollment in the low-income Success Academy schools and the increasing enrollment in the high income Success Academy schools. In other words, if a Success Academy school has a high % of low-income minority kids, it is very likely to have an extraordinarily high attrition rate of the students who win the lottery and enter in K (likely over 50% by 5th grade), some who are replaced by children who win a lottery for a later year and are tested before being allowed to join their appropriate post-Kindergarten grade.
You can ALSO check the sky high suspension rates at those low-income Success Academy schools, where sometimes over 20% of the 5, 6 and 7 year olds are given out of school suspensions. Some over and over again.
But don’t worry, Success is opening up special elementary schools in high income neighborhoods where ONLY students who can afford to live in those neighborhoods get priority (not at-risk kids, shockingly, because that priority was dropped long ago). And at those special schools in high income neighborhoods, the suspension and attrition rates are very, very low. Very low.
Unless you insist that poor minority 5 year olds deserve suspensions 10 or 20 times as frequently as middle class white kids, then your admiration for such a school truly defies belief. Is that it? You think all those 5 year olds were violent? Were terrible? Deserved to be told in no uncertain terms that the school didn’t like or want them?
Sickening.
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Good points, nysparent.
I’ve visited classrooms in numerous schools of all types since retiring. To put it bluntly: the only way you can get the 100/% compliance that SA demands and gets is to threaten — and carry out, deliberately and so everyone can see — serious consequences up to and including per many removal from the entire school for those who will NOT go along.
There are plenty of kids who won’t and can’t go along with such a strict regime. There are kids whose main goal in life is to be the class clown, ot to get under the skin of everybody around them. We have all had classmates like that, and if we have been teachers, we’ve all had students like that. And you have students who are seriously mentally ill, sometimes violently so, and are sometimes prone to outbursts that threaten the bodily safety of others.
While there are those who are brilliant, there are also those who have severe developmental delays, like those who cannot make sense of words on a page or the entire concept of division. At age 15.
Public schools have to put up with those kids. They cannot throw them out. Any public school teacher can tell you if msny, many instances where a student doing extremely disruptive things has the student immediately back to class after a referral by said teacher, with no consequences, establishing once and for all that the school administration will NOT support the teacher in any effort that she may attempt to improve discipline.
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I was heartened, today, to see another widely read blog, finally, posted something about the charter/reform movement in education: http://boingboing.net/2016/01/13/sneak-privatization-of-public.html
It’s amazing how few people really know this is going on, right under their noses!
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John (nice to see you commenting),
You asked whether there were so-called “feeder” schools whose graduates make up a disproportionate number of students who score high enough on the exam to be offered a seat in a SHSAT high school. The answer to that is yes: http://www.wsj.com/articles/well-worn-path-from-top-nyc-middle-schools-to-coveted-high-schools-1419824326. These institutions have high expectations for academics and behavior, and they are either extremely selective schools or have selective honors programs within them.
It’s funny that this one standardized multiple-choice test is being used as a gotcha, given all the bandwidth that’s been devoted here to Noel Wilson and Fair Test. Tests are a tool of oppression used by our corporate overlords to enslave us–except for when you need “proof” that charter school kids aren’t learning and/or are cheating on other assessments.
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Tim, do you not understand that critics of Moskowitz/no excuses charter schools refer to SA students’ inability to pass the SHSAT because so-called reformers themselves refer to test scores as the be-all and end-all of education, and thus are failures when judged by similar (debased) measurements they use to scapegoat public schools and public school teachers?
We place little validity or reliability upon these exams, yet are almost dumbstruck by the hypocrisy and dishonesty of so-called reformers boasting of their students’ test scores, yet then insist that we “keep on walking, there’s nothing to see here” when their students conspicuously fail other standardized tests they are not super-ultra-mega prepped for? Why can’t you accept that turning children into “little test-taking machines” does them a disservice, since it does not give them the cognitive flexibility to respond to demands they’ve not been punitively drilled on? Oh, that’s right: it’s because you’re ideologues with a hidden agenda.
Do you not understand, or are you just being disingenuous?
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Sorry, can you provide a link to where any “reformer” bragged about how well their students would perform on the norm-referenced SHSAT?
There is no failing the SHSAT: the schools would all take the exact same number of students whether everyone in the cohort got >95% or <5% of the answers right. The vast majority of qualifying students benefit from extensive, expensive prep geared specifically toward the idiosyncrasies of the SHSAT and/or attend competitive middle schools or K-8s that would make Vicky Abeles fans recoil in horror. They did not get their "cognitive flexibility" from being in a Sudbury school type setting, I can assure you.
If it becomes important to Success families that their children be better prepared to take the SHSAT, I am sure Eva will find a way to get it done. As things stand now, most of their K-8 graduates seem content to stay with the network for high school.
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Tim, no reformer bragged about their students’ performance on the elite high school admissions test (SHSAT). I could send you hundreds of links showing reformers bragging about their students’ high scores on state tests. That was what I referred to. If Eva would stop bragging about her kids’ high scores, no one would be surprised when not one of them was admitted to an elite high school because they couldn’t get a high score on the admission test. I repeat: Stop bragging about test scores and no one will expect all of the SA graduates to get admitted to Bronx Science, Stuyvesant, Brooklyn Tech, etc.
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Tim, how do you think those children GET to those feeder schools?
Many of those “feeder” middle schools base admission on the STATE test scores in 4th grade. The SAME high test scores that the Success Academy students get.
You have just admitted that those middle schools do a much better job than SA middle school with those students.
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In fact, as a practical matter, you can fail the SHSAT, by not getting a score which gains you entry into the specialized high schools, the only reason for taking that exam. And remember, not one of Eva’s “scholars,” reputedly the smartest, bestest test takers ever, “little test-taking machines,” got in.
And in Tim’s typically disingenuous fashion, he avoided addressing my initial point.
Do Success Academy touts and shills really believe that if any SA students had been admitted to any of the specialized high schools, that Moskowitz’s PR machine wouldn’t have let the world know, and used that to further denigrate the public schools?
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So not scoring high enough to receive an offer at a SHSAT school is failing? Even if you only wanted to go to one of the schools that require the highest scores, not the school with the lowest threshold, Brooklyn Tech (where oh by the way this is happening http://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/blackinbrooklyntech-students-call-out-racism-brooklyn-tech-n494206)?
Man, that is a lot of failure. About 23,000 failures each and every year, like clockwork. Probably even some of your students.
Moskowitz has said time and time again that it was a lousy educational experience at Stuyvesant, and some shockingly bad teachers, that motivated her interest in reforming public schools. Maybe she actually wouldn’t consider it a victory to have a kid leave for a traditional public school, even a selective one. Maybe she wants students to stay (most of them do), especially as the high school gets off the ground. Maybe Eva just dislikes DOE schools *that* much.
For example, a Success student from the second K-8 cohort won a spot at LaGuardia, the famed performing arts school that requires incoming students to ace an audition/exhibition and to have high test scores and grades – fewer than 1/15 applicants gets in. That is certainly worthy of a brag, but I didn’t hear about it from Success or the media, I found it by digging through school quality snapshots. Juan Gonzalez, there’s a big juicy scoop for you on the house: student endures 9 years of narrow drill-and-kill ELA/math test prep, beats the odds to attend the nation’s most competitive performing arts high school!
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Not a single student from Eva Moskowitz’s high-scoring Success Academy succeeded in getting into any of NYC’s elite high schools. Not one. Zero.
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Correct, not one out of a group of 81 children, 83% of whom are black, 17% are black, and 79% are economically disadvantaged scored high enough to get into the SHSAT school of their choosing.
It is astonishing and not a little bit sad how much this gratifies you and your commenters.
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Tim, stop making excuses. The only thing that gratifies me is to see a braggart exposed. It would be wonderful if all her boasts were true and SA really did prepare their students for success. The boasting is about money, ego, and power. It is not about education or kids.
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Diane,
You seem equally gratified about any charter scandal, a scrap of negative data re New Orleans, etc. etc.
Are there any reformers who have said anything negative about union city because it’s not a charter district?
The delight in failure of “the other side” seems to be pretty consistent and one-sided.
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John, is this the latest ploy/spin from the shills and/or fools that support the corporate, public education demolition derby (CPEDD)—-that supporters of the public schools are gloating because of the many failures and repeated frauds found in the autocratic, for-profit, often lying, opaque corporate charter schools that have expanded thanks only to the support of hundreds of millions and/or billions of U.S. dollars from power hungry and greedy autocratic billionaire oligarchs and hedge funds buying every person and organization possible from the White House on down so they can destroy the community based, non-profit, transparent, democratic public schools that have seen nothing but slow and steady success for more than a century?
Prove that the average traditional public schools are failures. That at any time in their history, the nation’s traditional public schools stopped improving.
For starters, to support my allegations that the traditional public schools are not failures and do not need to be replaced with a choice that is not a choice, I refer to the hardcover of Diane’s “Reign of Error” starting on page 327 with the Appendix that runs to page 351 with chart after chart loaded with data from the reading and math tests from the NAEP from as far back as 1970s.
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Public schools don’t crow that they are better and best! Charter schools say that public schools are inferior and that the charters should take over. Braggarts create their own problems.
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Diane,
It doesn’t seem that you distinguish between braggarts and others that just make their data available. It seems that you consider a charter school bragging merely for existing as an option for families.
I can understand that Eva can be abrasive, but do you consider KIPP, Uncommon, Yes Prep, Aspire, Achievement First, etc. braggarts?
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The NYC DOE’s traditional public schools, with their big funding advantage over charters, their unionized teachers, and their immense centralized support structure, have had decades to prepare economically disadvantaged black children for the challenge of the SHSAT and the specialized high schools. How are they doing?
Economically disadvantaged black children comprised 21.5% of NYC DOE enrollment in 2014-2015. At the eight specialized high schools, they made up only 3.1%. Throw out the two schools that have the lowest qualifying scores, Brooklyn Latin and Brooklyn Tech (which are also an inconvienient commute from Harlem and points north), and it’s way worse: just 1.2% of the enrollment of the six most selective SHSAT schools was economically disadvantaged black children. And at the two schools with the very highest cut-off scores, Stuyvesant and Staten Island Tech, a grand total of 14 economically disadvantaged black children were enrolled, or 0.3% of the total.
Juan Gonzalez could scarcely contain his glee when he wrote about the failures of a few poor kids of color at Success. I can only imagine to what ecstatic heights the information above would transport him. He can get to work on it after finishing up the story of the Success child who battled to keep her cognitive abilities intact and ace her Laguardia auditions!
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Tim – From my personal experiences with City Honors in Buffalo, I can say that these selective schools really push their students to the limit, requiring a high commitment and a large amount of self motivation to achieve in some very rigorous coursework. Placing students in these schools who can’t meet the requirements is doing a disservice to the child. Even bright children often don’t respond to such tactics. In some ways it’s not unlike the pressure at the SA schools (not the drilling and chanting component, but the emphasis on producing). While some students thrive, others shut down – and we are talking about children fully capable of doing the work.
The main question is why so few minority students qualify (In Buffalo, City Honors is a mixture of all races)? My experiences indicate that there are bright children from all backgrounds and being white doesn’t guarantee being smarter than average. Is it a matter of grit? The Puritan ethic? A family emphasis on the value of education?
Why aren’t some of those SA kids getting in? They definitely know how to work hard. They definitely have the ability to be successful. What component in their educational experience is missing?
Instead of pointing fingers and guessing, there needs to be some research to determine exactly what factors lead to “success” (if we can agree what “success” in school should look like). Then we can come up with some solutions to even the playing field.
Ironically, Charter Schools were supposed to be experimental centers to help answer these questions and come up with a list of “best practices”. If anything, the innovations implemented in the public schools over the last twenty years have been tossed out and replaced with a system which doesn’t work. I haven’t heard of any new ideas from successful Charter Schools which have been applied to a Public School system.
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Flos, it is not the case that “some” of the grads of Success charters don’t get in. None of them have ever been admitted to a NYC elite high school. Test-based admissions. And none of them gets in, despite the boasting and bragging about their sky-high scores. If only they would stop the bragging, it would lower expectations.
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Tim, No excuses! Not one of those high scoring kids from Success Charters, which boasts about their test scores, not one was admitted to the specialized high schools. Don’t compare them to public schools that can’t match their resources, that can’t kick students out that they don’t want, that do take kids with profound disabilities. No excuses!
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By the way, thanks for letting me know how many SA students took the test. 32 the first year; 49 the second.
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Tim – have you ever heard the story of the Open House where the teacher told the parent: “If you promise not to believe half the things your child says about me, I promise not to believe half the things they say about you”.
I’m not saying the Brooklyn Tech doesn’t have some issues, but those comments were all taken out of context. I’ve been in situations where a student claimed they wanted to be a doctor, yet they were putting no effort into their school work and were failing more than one subject (all, according t them, the teacher’s fault). While I didn’t laugh, was I supposed to encourage them in a pipe dream? When I pointed out the requirements for med school, I was accused of not being supportive. Just as I was supposed to be supportive of my son who wanted to be a Major League Baseball player (his backup plan was Minor League). It’s fun to dream, but there is also a time to be realistic.
My suggestion to any student who wanted to go into a medical field was to volunteer at a hospital to get a feel for what the job entails. There are even internships which get you high school credit. Two of my daughters were basically “candy stripers” at a local hospital and one now works at Roswell in Buffalo (as a Nutritionist, not a doctor).
Yes, some of the comments seemed insensitive, but we don’t know the whole conversation. Perhaps they were joking around or perhaps there was some background which was left out.
I’ve learned not to judge, especially news articles which can be slanted or sensationalized to catch the publics interest. The Buffalo News seemingly reports the truth, yet all the articles about charter schools only give half the picture and leave out the most important parts. I realize this because I know the rest of the story.
Where’s Paul Harvey when you need him?
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Tim, you are the one who insulted every African-American student in specialized high schools with your insinuation that they are only there due to some kind of “extensive, expensive prep” that got them their high scores. You refuse to credit the fact that their elementary and middle school education seemed to be more about getting them to learn than in getting them to score well on a state test.
Selective public middle schools take students with high state test scores in elementary school. In other words, students at selective public middle school BEGIN 6th grade with the SAME credentials as the students at Success Academy Middle schools. And yet, by the beginning of 8th grade, none of those high-performing SA students were scoring high enough on the SHSAT.
It’s pretty offensive for you to denigrate those Success Academy 8th graders by your implication that they just weren’t as smart as other middle school 8th graders and the only reason their test scores in 4th and 5th grade were just as high as those other public school 8th graders is because the great Success Academy teachers got them to perform above their level. You do realize that is what you are implying? The rest of us assume those SA 8th graders are very capable and were just so exposed to an education in which they were taught to follow orders instead of think that they struggled when it came time for the SHSAT.
By the way, last year 248 Black and 347 Hispanic 8th grade students scored higher than Success Academy’s 8th graders to gain admittance to a specialized high school. That’s nearly 600 8th grade Black and Hispanic students gaining admission in a single year. (They don’t all choose to go). Over the two years that Success Academy 8th graders have taken the SHSAT, that is nearly 500 Black and 700 Hispanic students scoring higher than them. Some of those students very likely came from other charter schools. Perhaps even charter schools where over 20% of the 5 year olds aren’t suspended and where 50% of the starting Kindergarten cohort don’t disappear by 5th grade.
“…a Success student from the second K-8 cohort won a spot at LaGuardia, the famed performing arts school that requires incoming students to ace an audition/exhibition and to have high test scores and grades – fewer than 1/15 applicants gets in. That is certainly worthy of a brag…”
Congratulations to the student who got in – that is certainly an accomplishment for HIM (or her). But “worthy of a brag” for the charter school where that student attended? And you are impressed that Eva Moskowitz declined to brag about it? Do you realize how many different middle schools in NYC the students at LaGuardia attended? Each year, upwards of 800 or 900 8th graders are accepted to fill 650 spots. Do you think every middle school that places a student there brags about it and notifies the media? Do you think the media EVER reports on the single student from no-name middle school in the Bronx who got an acceptance? Not a chance. I guess you find it shocking because certain newspapers are happy to be stenographers for the Success Academy press releases of every accomplishment as if it is something especially newsworthy. I recall a story about their “chess championship” in one of the daily tabloids a few years ago in which it turned out their elementary school students had done well in one of the less competitive categories. Meanwhile, a very poor Prospect Heights elementary school who won a much more prestigious chess championship was barely noticed. It’s not that the accomplishments of the students at Success Academy aren’t impressive, because they are. But no more so (and sometimes less so) than many public schools’ accomplishments that are hardly noticed (except when their students’ test scores are unfavorably compared to SA).
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Tim, you are by far the most intellectually dishonest person who posts on this site.
Unable to adequately respond to my refutation of your flawed reasoning, you try playing the race card by claiming that Diane, myself and others derive satisfaction from the inability of SA students to gain entry into the specialized high schools. This is compounded by the fact that we and others constantly refer to the abusive practices directed at students, at Moskowitz’s sweat shops.
You know as well as we do that all of that is said to expose the lies and deception of Moskowitz, Inc.
By deceptively bringing race in to serve your ideology, you truly expose yourself, as do the rest of the so-called reformers, of cynically and opportunistically using race to serve your privatizing agenda.
Keep trolling away; whatever minimal credibility you might have had is long gone.
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You defend at all costs a residential-based system that was designed primarily to assure separate schools for children of color–it wasn’t an unintentional byproduct, the fallacy you and so many other “progressives” sing yourselves to sleep with.
Your cherished traditional public schools were doing jack squat about it for decades and decades and decades (well, except for litigating against integration, rigging zoning rules, relying on bad behavior from banks and real estate agents, and using the police and private citizens to intimidate) and would have been content to keep things the way they were forever. None of those kids mattered until jobs were threatened. Defenders of the district model who want to keep poor minority kids warehoused, and who have no constructive solutions other than to keep schools separate, but with more money, aren’t any different from prison guards fighting against humane sentencing laws.
It never feels good to be accused of being intellectually dishonest, but when I consider the source, I’ll get over it fairly quickly.
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Tim,
You accuse everyone else of defending segregation when the charter schools you defend are more segregated than the public schools.
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Rotberg: “The primary exceptions to increased student stratification [potentially caused by charters] are in communities that are already so highly segregated by race, ethnicity, and income that further increases are virtually impossible.”
Any reader of Orfield’s UCLA national and state-level reports will quickly realize that this exception applies to highly segregated New York City, where district school segregation is often worse than even residential segregation (http://insideschools.org/blog/item/1001049-report-schools-are-more-segregated-than-neighborhoods), as well as many other urban areas with large numbers of charter schools.
Simply put, charter schools are not standing in the way of meaningful, actionable solutions to combat school segregation in New York, largely because the district doesn’t have any solutions or plans.
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Diane,
Surely you can agree that there is a huge difference between forced and voluntary segregation?
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More lies: I defend public education, as flawed and imperfect as it is, not (strictly) based residential enrollment, as you claim.
I defy you to find anything I’ve ever written supporting segregation and/or residence based school enrollment.
That’s your straw man talking, while he goes up in flames.
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That’s great to hear, Michael. My apologies for failing to divine your position despite having read so many of your internet comments.
In the spirit of Chapter 31 of “Reign,” I’d like to know your specific plans for breaking down the link between residence and school assignment. So much time, effort, and money has gone into the creation and perpetuation of this system that mere good intentions aren’t enough.
So pretend that in a shocking out-of-left-field development that you are now the mayor of New York, with lots of power to shape zoning and enrollment. What do you do?
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Tim is an excellent representative of the dishonesty of charter school operators.
First, those charters claimed that they wanted to educated all the at-risk students who were being failed by public schools. However, it turned out that educating all those kids meant that the charter schools were failing as much as the public schools were. So then charters went to phase 2:
Second, charters claimed they were SUCCESSFULLY educating all those at-risk kids to achieve miraculous results! Look at our test scores, say people like Tim. Do NOT look at our attrition rate for at-risk kids! Oops, it turns out that in order to have brag-worthy results — and we know how important Tim believes brag-worthy results are — charter schools had to devise “got to go” lists to get rid of many of those at-risk kids. Oops — now Tim has another problem.
Third attempt to justify charters: Well, we now know that charters are doing a terrible job educating MOST at-risk kids and now people are looking closely at their got to go lists and very high suspension rates of 5 year old kids and very high attrition rates for at-risk children who ORIGINALLY win a lottery spot for Kindergarten. What’s the solution? Pretend that charters were always designed to combat segregation! Because if you allow 20% of the most high achieving minority students in your school along with the 75% of the upper middle class affluent kids, you are “combating segregation”!
Tim has basically acknowledged that the LAST thing charters want to do is teach most of the kids in those failing public schools, because most of them happen to be minority children. So now he needs to justify the fact that charters rid themselves of as many low-performing and difficult at-risk kids as they can make miserable while actively recruiting middle class, mostly white students. All in the name of “integration”! Charters no longer care one bit about the kids in failing public schools. Their goal is to take the top performing 10% out of those public schools and educate them with the middle class students and pretend their goal is “integration”.
Don’t expect honesty from the charter folks like Tim. All they want is to be “successful” and if that means throwing the at-risk kids under a bus, they happily do it.
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It’s too bad the no-excuses schools present such an extreme for comparison. There is no way a martinet style can be carried thro the entire school day and prepare kids for the needs of modern life (or perhaps even the demands of hs, as preliminary stats seem to indicate). Army-style will get you infantry, prepared to follow orders with learned group behavior rendered instinctual through rote practice. Good for teach-to-the-test and not much else.
My experience is with the 2.5-6y.o. crowd. One quarter-tsp of such methods goes a long way. Little kids do love to learn how to act in chorus (song, dance, repeating foreign words & phrases). They need to learn to follow gesture-commands in order to enjoy teacher-led group activities. If such sessions are kept brief & interspersed with unstructured play & art [pasting pre-cut shapes onto outlined forms is not art], the lessons learned aid immeasurably in conducting group discussion as they reach 4&5-y.o.
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bethree5,
It is the *caricature* of no excuses schools that presents such an extreme, not the actual schools. Please visit one, where you will find much of what you described in the second paragraph of what your wrote, not the first. Consider the bias in the source. Not one positive word about any charter school will be written here.
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I don’t see KIPP grads’ struggles as an indictment of KIPP, since I’m sure demographically comparable kids who go to regular schools likely struggle just as much if not more. To me the take-away here is that the task of putting disadvantaged kids on an equal academic footing with advantaged kids is monumental –way bigger than what most people have imagined –since even KIPP’s hyper-energetic efforts haven’t been able to do the trick. KIPP can’t do it, public schools can’t do it, progressive schools can’t do it. No one can do it. At least not yet.
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Ponderosa,
The issue isn’t the challenges faced by KIPP graduates in college; they deserve whatever assistance they need in order to graduate, like every other student.
No, the issue is the wall of lies we are told about these schools, that they are they answer to “failing” public schools, and that if we only turn everything over to the Moskowitz’s and Levin’s of the world, then everything would be ok, and poverty would be eliminated (as if these poverty pimps care).
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You’re right. KIPP claims to have some secret sauce and it doesn’t. However one cannot deny that there’s a high-voltage effort going on there –and even with this, grads struggle. This buttresses a point that I think many of us have yet to learn: that it’s truly a Herculean task to try to lift up the disadvantaged kids. It may, in fact, be impossible to do significant lifting in one generation. As far as I can tell, nobody has really been able to identify the components of intellectual/academic high performance. What are the building blocks? People have their opinions, but nobody really knows. It’s just assumed that an energetic effort like what KIPP has undertaken should do the trick. It hasn’t. A non-impoverished household, I’m sure, is one building block. But is it the only one? If not, what are the others?
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Some of the community schools with wrap around services seem to be making considerable progress. Their success, though, seems to be anchored in a recognition that we “treat” the community as well as the students. Then it becomes more than an effort of the public schools but of social services and other community agencies that are there to help the community as a whole. this model really embraces what we have said all along; that struggling schools tend to be in struggling communities that need support in a multitude of ways. The schools can only do so much without the ability to serve as a community hub that provides wraparound services.
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But it is pretty strange that the only methods used to try to lift disadvantaged kids seem to be the ones that that are cheap. Has anyone tried a concerted effort to model a school on a fancy private school like Chicago University Lab School? Do we already know that wouldn’t lift those students so we are trying a method that well-off families wouldn’t countenance.
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Here’s another article that I think would be of interest to those reading here in case they didn’t see it.
https://www.the74million.org/article/impressive-new-scores-for-newark-charters-raise-an-awkward-question-did-city-pick-the-wrong-strategy
These two turnaround schools in Newark seem to be doing extremely well. I have very high hopes for the similar stuff going on in Camden. They are proving that it isn’t about “different kids”, selectivity, or attrition; it’s about different culture and education.
Each year, charter performance improves, especially for students from low income families, and more parents choose them. The rationalizations that supporters of the current state of our district schools are looking thinner and thinner all of the time.
Michael, curious about your response about these schools. Do you defend what those two schools had become and denigrate what they are now? If so, is it solely based on who is running them?
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John, are you seriously holding up an article by the 74million as an unbiased report of what is happening? You at least have to include a source or two that are not the spawn of the charter industry. I am not a fan of charters. It is hard to argue that they are not destroying the neighborhood school system in large urban areas. There is a reason for that. The power elite can play with the the children of the poor. They don’t have to answer to anyone and they can make money, too. Democracy/ schmocracy! There is nothing they have done that hasn’t been done in democratically controlled community schools. We need stable institutions dedicated to educating all of the children. We need a society that values all children enough to equitably fund and resource all schools and their communities. I have yet to hear of a charter organization that is willing to take on an entire district and provide the stability so important in a child’s education. Education is not something to be bought and sold like the latest fast food craze. What a shame that the original promise of charters has been so debased.
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2old2teach,
Did you read the article? FYI, I read just about everything written by folks I disagree with. Also, when you lead with the people making money thing, I know you’re not seriously considering charters, since the vast majority of the are not-for-profits. As for neighborhood schools, I think they are largely destroying themselves, or at the very least, not adapting to new realities about the world, their cities, and their students.
If you haven’t read the article, please do. If you have, I’m curious about your opinion of these two turnaround schools.
Also, re takeovers, keep you eye on Camden, which is not a single charter organization taking over a district (which I think would be bad), but a collection of the best taking over schools in place.
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John,
I checked with Jersey Jazzman, aka Mark Weber, who reviews data on New Jersey, and he says the article is flatly wrong. He sent me charts and graphs and promised to write a post. Meanwhile, don’t believe everything you read.
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I am eagerly awaiting Jersey Jazzman’s response.
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I’m sure that the truth is somewhere between the article I posted and what Mark will write. Looking forward to reading what he will write.
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Yes, I did read the article. Check out who wrote it. Otherwise, I was not responding to those particular charters. Saying urban public schools that have been under the control of mayors are at fault for their decline is disingenuous. I suggest you examine the systematic dismantling of Chicago Public Schools. Are there problems in urban schools? Yes, but I would wager that if poverty was seriously addressed the school problems could be more easily handled. Community schools that provide wraparound services have already shown the promise of one potential model. Charters cannot scale up to systematically provide quality education for all of our children and yet they are severely damaging the public system that promises to attempt to educate all comers. The amateur hour that education has been exposed to over the last few decades has done nothing to improve the educational system and a lot that has hindered its development. They are taking a system that was admired internationally by many and turning it into a bad joke.
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2old2teach,
“but I would wager that if poverty was seriously addressed the school problems could be more easily handled.”
Yes, of course, but that can’t be a rationalization for doing nothing.
“They are taking a system that was admired internationally by many and turning it into a bad joke.”
I think there are a lot of reasons why the system isn’t admired any more, but I don’t think charter schools are the reason.
Here are a few:
– We used to be the best because other countries were so far behind us. Now, other countries have made huge improvements and we have stagnated, or even gotten worse as a result of changing demographics.
– Despite spending more and more on education, we are getting less because of increased costs that were signed up for decades ago but which the bill is coming due for now.
– Our education system has not changed in the face of changing demographics, children’s needs, and other world changes.
– Teaching and expecting behavior to the lowest common denominator in many urban schools, which leads to low expectations and few opportunities for students who could excel.
– Failure of the teaching profession to work on continuous improvement of the profession.
– The confrontational nature of management/labor relations in education and the subsequent micromanaging, overly prescriptive union contracts, and legislative meddling that has resulted from it.
I could go on and on.
It is also true that charters cost less per student than district schools, so that in most places where they exist, they leave more money to spend on the remaining kids, not less.
But, here’s what I think a major issue is:
In many cities, charter schools have become the refuge of low income parents who want their children in an environment more conducive to learning with the result of leaving those less interested in neighborhood schools. Now, before someone refers to this as “creaming”, I want to say that my experience is that this is *most* parents in these cities, and what is being “creamed” is the top 80-90%.
Neighborhood schools have not provided some means for these parents to get what they need for their children and have been complicit in enabling bad behavior and allowing the schools to get to that point. “Fairness” to misbehaving, absent, and disinterested kids has led to a massive unfairness to the other children who are stuck in these schools because their families don’t have the ability to move to the suburbs like their more well-off counterparts. To me, this double standard is the biggest reason why this is happening.
The hypocrisy of people who point a critical finger at this while they’ve done the same thing for their own children by moving to the suburbs just staggers me. Anyone who says that these parents have to sacrifice their children in order to be “fair” while others just pay their way out like draft dodgers is a hypocrite.
And, while I’m ranting, this isn’t just about behavior. It is also about our failure to teach many kids from these backgrounds to read and do math in early years (including age-based grades and social promotion) so that they are destined to academic failure. Yes, they have big deficits and yes, they need more resources (and I believe more time), and yes, poverty is to blame, but none of these is a reason to tolerate the problem and keep doing what we’ve always done.
It seems to me that many urban neighborhood schools are perfectly willing to allow children to fail if they don’t respond to the teaching that used to work. I think the system has adapted in many ways to allow this, such as pacing that doesn’t cover curriculum, giving “B” grades to kids who fail objective tests miserably, etc. This avoids confrontation and passes the buck to future grades and schools where reality can be applied. I don’t blame individual educators, as I think they’re largely powerless to make a significant difference individually. If our educational system has achieved one thing, it is an enormous inertia made of conflicting adult interests.
Maybe we all agree that the system isn’t working for these kids and just differ on what the solution is (though there are a disturbing number of voices saying that there is no problem). If we agree on the problem, the question is who can fix it, or at least improve it. Schools don’t seem inclined to change. The teaching profession does not seem inclined to change. Legislatures apply pressure that is misguided and ineffective. State Education and DOE do the same.
I’ve found my personal solution in a charter school that does whatever it takes to get these kids prepared, including a *lot* of extra time, recruiting and highly compensating the best, most motivated teachers, decision making at the level closest to the classroom so that we can adapt quickly, tons of professional development and coaching, home visits to address issues outside of school, etc. Most charters that I know of try very hard with the most difficult and challenging students, but what we don’t do is allow them to define the culture and expectations. I’m not trying to force this option on anyone, but I will defend my parents’ rights to expect this for their children.
It may well be that the single biggest issue is the degree to which the most disruptive behavior and lowest expectations have been allowed to set the tone and culture in many urban schools. The 80-90% of the kids in these schools that would be doing better in a different environment are the key here. When reformers look at urban schools and say you have to do better, they are talking about these kids. When we equate ed reform with civil rights, we are talking about these kids. When anti-reformers talk about charters as creaming, they are talking about these kids. The school choice debate is basically about them, what they deserve, and how they can get it.
Rant over. Let the skewering commence.
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John,
Too much you wrote is totally false, too much to respond to. What research shows us that charters spend more on administration than on instruction. They cut costs by hiring young teachers, who turn over rapidly. Minimum wage. They have fewer kids with disabilities. That cuts costs too. Most of what you wrote us charter propaganda. If charters are so great, why does no high performing nation have them?
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Diane,
No country in the world has our level of problem coupled with our complacency and apparent inability to do anything about it. I don’t view charters as *the* solution, but as a step that hopefully pushes district schools to be part of the solution as well.
We have to do better for our low income and minority families who are now the majority in our communities. I don’t know if you agree with this or not since you seem equally likely to say we’re not spending enough, not doing the right things, not measuring the right things, setting goals too high, or that there is no problem at all. You are against a lot of things, but, though I’ve read your books and posts, I still can’t tell what you are for (other than progressive values outside of schools, which we agree on). The inconsistency of these arguments is what lead me to view them as rationalizations.
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John. Your comments seems to indicate that you think the urban public schools are not putting any effort into resolving the inherent inequalities. Nothing can be further from the truth.
Recently several identified struggling schools were asked to come up with an action plan to resolve some of the problems in their buildings. Teachers got together (on their own time) and came up with a detailed plan specific to the issues at each individual school. They were all rejected, not because they were bad ideas, but because they were too expensive to implement.
Thus teachers are expected to perform miracles without funding, limited resources, and no control over working conditions.
I’ll let you know when I start walking on water.
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flos56 says:
“John. Your comments seems to indicate that you think the urban public schools are not putting any effort into resolving the inherent inequalities. Nothing can be further from the truth”
I applaud and support any school working on this diligently, whether district or charter. My local district is just not one of them, and the data would indicate they are more the exception than the rule.
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flos56,
One more thought, re “Thus teachers are expected to perform miracles without funding, limited resources, and no control over working conditions. ”
Yes, I agree, and I also agree there should be more funding. I just don’t think money alone is the issue.
Re control, I agree that individual teachers have little control over working conditions, but no factor in this equation has more control over working conditions than the unions and collective bargaining contracts. They are overly proscriptive, treat teachers like interchangeable widgets, and have, IMO, led to lots of crappy mandates from above.
If you disagree, please tell me who has more control and power.
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John, we have the greatest level of child poverty of any advanced nation. How do charter schools change that? Your eagerness to destroy public education is very short-sighted and not in the best interests of children who are poor or our society. You are doing the work of the 1%.
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Diane, what high-performing nation has spent decades and many trillions of dollars in sorting its children by race and parental income, isolating 25% or so of its children in high-poverty traditional public schools? How long do you expect other people’s kids to wait for meaningful, actionable solutions?
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Tim,
Charters are no more successful than public schools unless they exclude low-performing students. They are more segregated than the public schools in their district. You are quite disingenuous in suggesting that charter schools are the answer to segregation. They are not, and you know it. Many charters are abject failures run by non-educators, profiteers and scammers. Why do you want more parents to be hoaxed with false promises? After 25 years of charters, what can you boast about other than a fabulous propaganda campaign?
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Charters in urban areas that have already been hypersegregated by the district system not only get better results for poor children of color (http://urbancharters.stanford.edu/index.php), their effect on segregation is neutral per Rotberg.
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Tim – not in my experience. Same kids, same results – the differences, if any, are negligible in those institutionally poor, minority neighborhoods. And we shouldn’t expect miracles. There are just some issues that can’t be resolved with a change in venue. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
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flos56,
“There are just some issues that can’t be resolved with a change in venue. ”
There are some issues for which the longer school day and year, culture focused on learning, and consistent discipline work. There are some other things that work as well, and in synergy, they get results in the top schools. No secret sauce or rocket science, but still better results than what would be predicted based on demographics. Not a huge difference, but a significant one.
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John – I’ve been involved with all those strategies. I’ve observed them in both public and charter schools. You don’t know how disappointed I was when after concerted efforts these policies did not translate into positive measurable (I.e. NYS assessment) results.
While I’m sure there were some positive outcomes, they were not enough to prevent schools from being closed or turned around or reinvented with a new emphasis. The only charters which have been successful in the Buffalo area are those who have enough white kids to counteract the continued poor performance of too many of the minority students. Those schools located totally in the poor urban minority neighborhoods remained in the bottom 5%.
I dedicated my entire career into trying to making a difference. While I may have had a few success stories, it was not enough to put even a small dent into the problem.
The solution is just not that simple.
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flos56,
“The solution is just not that simple.”
We certainly agree on that.
I think that a combination of all of these strategies, typically found in top performing charters, has led to greater success with a large group of students from low income families,
I don’t consider it magic. I don’t consider it a solution for everyone. It certainly isn’t simple and is a huge amount of hard work.
I do think that every child deserves the environment in which they will thrive the most, and whether they get that or not shouldn’t depend on their zip code or parent’s income.
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John – we want the same things.
I have always advocated for equality of services between urban, suburban and rural school districts. I think the discussed strategies do make a difference in the urban setting, the results are just not visible on test scores. I also know there are still many children who fall through the cracks (not all kids who attend suburban schools are stellar students and they are often weeded out so as not to bring down the “standing” of a school or district). However, a public school could easily offer the same programs as you advocate for the charter schools. If it’s good for one, it should be good for everyone. That was the original purpose of charters – to field test good ideas (not to take over public education). The problem is the government now dictates the curriculum and teaching style of the public schools (especially in urban communities) and doesn’t allow them to pursue other avenues of instruction (even ones which were working in the past).
My main complaint with your comments is how you demonize teachers. Surely not every teacher you meet is incompetent, unwilling to attend any sort of inservice or try any new technique. You make it sound like they sit in front of the classroom reading magazines and eating candy while the students “play” at their desks. Teachers like that don’t survive very long – suburban parents would insist on their removal, urban principals would be on their ass and transfer them out ASAP (or they would be moved to an administrative position – only half joking). While not every teacher is stellar, they aren’t all buffoons either. And there is a large learning curve for new teachers (principals like them the young ones because they can be molded vs more seasoned teachers who might question their authority) and it takes about five years to hit their stride – if they last that long.
Finally, I don’t have issue with those private charters with good intentions (except for their funding source), it’s those “big-boxed institutes” who stand for everything I’m against. The SA schools don’t seem anything like your charter school. There are different philosophies and I’m against any school which doesn’t value each child as anything more than a commodity. (I also don’t shop at Walmart).
I think we have made each other clear on our opinions. We really aren’t so far off, we want the same things, we just have different strategies on how to reach a successful solution. Unfortunately, I think in order for the charter schools to be successful, the public schools will suffer damages which will effect the futures of way too many kids.
There has to be a better way.
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flos56,
“Surely not every teacher you meet is incompetent, unwilling to attend any sort of inservice or try any new technique.”
I apologize if it sounded that way, but it is far from what I believe. Most educators that I know, district or charter, are extremely hard working people who want the best for the children in their care. I believe most have the desire to continuously improve and try new things constantly to see what works with individual challenges.
My disdain for professional development has more to do with the support (or lack thereof) that developing teachers get, and PD programs with no follow through or time to discuss implementation, etc. That is not on individual teachers or even administrators. It’s on the system as it is.
I do also hold the unions and schools of education responsible for this as I think they should be at the forefront of PD and even evaluation. They have the ability to shape what this looks like and largely define the profession. I don’t think they do that, and I think it largely comes down to individual teachers motivation and conscientiousness to do what they think is right regardless of whether they get support and assistance. I don’t think that’s helpful to the profession.
I’m also no fan of for-profit charters. I honestly don’t know enough about SA to form an opinion, but I do know that there are plenty who will attack them simply because they’re knocking it out of the park on test scores. Are the attacks justified? I don’t know. There are a lot of anecdotes around, but the data (including suspension data) seems to be on their side. I don’t doubt that they are a challenging employer to work for, but I’m open to the possibility that what children need today is different in many ways and that our traditional schools have not been able to adapt.
I agree that we generally want the same things but disagree on strategies. In fact, we may agree on the strategies to use for teaching and learning, but disagree on the means to make those things happen. I got frustrated with trying to accomplish any of these things with a traditional public school district. Operating at the building level, which only being a charter gives us the ability to do, is where I found my personal answer. The best charters are schools led by experienced teachers and run the way many teachers would run a school if they had a chance.
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John said, “I do also hold the unions and schools of education responsible for this as I think they should be at the forefront of PD and even evaluation.”
I can only speak from my thirty years (1975-2005) working in the same district in California, but improving teacher training was a constant, ongoing process in the district where I taught in addition to the fact that California made it mandatory that teachers must prove they are learning all the time about how children learn and the latest and most successful trends in K – 12 education.
How can anyone speak for what goes on in fifty states and more than 15,000 public school districts? Then there is the fact that there are thousands of local teacher unions linked to the state and national levels and in some states there are no teacher unions or they have no power.
The teachers’ unions are not responsible for the element of public education.
In addition, I can only speak about the school of education at Cal Poly Pomona where I earned my teaching credential. That department, where I earned my teaching credential through a year long, full time urban residency, was still involved in outreach when I retired from teaching. One of my previous principal retired from the district and went to work for the education department at Cal Poly and his job was outreach to support new teachers on a regular basis.
Why is it that you think only teachers’ unions should be held responsibly for teacher development and support? And are you talking about local district branches, the state unions or the national unions?
The district where I taught had its own teacher improvement center in its own building on one of the grade school campuses and a full time staff that worked with teachers on a constant ongoing process to support and help teachers improve and stay up to day. In addition, as I said before, California required teachers to attend classes and workshops on a constant basis or lose their credneitals.
A year didn’t go by where every teacher at the schools where I taught didn’t attend workshops or classes that were designed to improve their skills. It was a never ending process.
I honestly don’t think you know what you are talking about unless it is limited to the one or few school districts you have experience with as a teacher and/or parent. How can anyone judge one of the largest countries in the world based on such a limited experience?
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Lloyd,
A fair criticism, though my comments aren’t only based on my personal experience.
I’ve read lots of surveys and studies regarding Professional Development, and most teachers don’t feel that what they get is what they need. Same with ongoing support. I can appreciate that your experience was different, but have you seen national surveys or data that show otherwise?
Likewise, my opinion on ed schools, in addition to having spoken with many teachers, is based on national data about them and surveys by teachers on their experiences.
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John, to have a high level of constant teacher training and support in every state and school district in the country would require a form of national standardization and that goes against state rights.
There are countries that do this. France, for instance, but then France does not have the same government structure the U.S. has where states rights are much more important.
The states are responsible for educating the children in each state—not the federal government.
The public schools are manged by state law and requirements for teacher training and teacher support are all over the place.
Teachers’ Unions can’t be expected to do this job because it isn’t the responsibly of the teachers’ unions to do it. Second, teachers don’t have unions in every state or district and even if teachers’ unions could implement teacher training and support, what about all those corpaote charters where teachers don’t belong to teachers’ unions?
At the local level, the presidents of a district teachers’ unions are almost always a working classroom teacher who might be fortunate enough to have an extra planning period and teach one less class so they have time to run that branch of the union.
For instance, in some states all a substitute teacher needs to teach is a GED while other states require a BA or Masters.
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John – there is a big difference between teachers attending in services and teachers considering these same in services worthwhile. Teachers don’t have control over the content found in programs provided by a school or district. Sometimes the information is fascinating but not applicable, sometimes the lessons are totally off the mark, on occasion the teacher learns a new skill which they can immediately put to use in their classroom. Certain in services can be scary (such as the ones on common core implementation).
However, you were accusing teachers of not participatimg in additional training implying they did not care about improving their skills due to laziness or ineptitude. I personally loved my Madeline Hunter and Harry Wong workshops and consistently used those skills in my lessons, but then my lessons were required to reflect direct instruction and after that close reading. All the child psychology and learning style techniques which I had used to develop my teaching style were thrown out the window with the adoption of Common Core.
Don’t blame the teachers, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
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Lloyd, my experiences regarding Professional Development in Western New York are very similar to yours in California. NYS also has a requirement about continuing education for teachers in order for them to retain their certification.
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John, many teachers do seek out their own continuing education, through University courses, Teacher Centers, and various opportunities from professional organizations in their field. I have kept my memberships active even though I am retired and have continued to attend events to keep abreast of new developments in my field.
As I said in a different post, District and/or Departmental in-services vary in relevance. The Union is not responsible for PD content, although they can insist that required attendance outside normal school hours must include the appropriate renumeration (hourly rate based on the teacher contract or full day pay if the in service lasts four hours or more). Of course, this leads to PD during the school day or on Superintendents Conference Days or voluntary in services which provide district credit or materials for the classroom (such as lab supplies for the science teacher or free books for the librarian).
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flos56,
“The Union is not responsible for PD content, although they can insist that required attendance outside normal school hours must include the appropriate remuneration”
You’ve hit upon an important point that I’d like to make. Who exactly *is* responsible for PD? (FYI, I think “administration” is too simple an answer given they have a similar set of constraints on their options). It seems to me that everyone has a position on what PD *can’t* be, but nobody is advocating for what it should be.
Why can the union insist on the remuneration (as it should) without insisting on what the content will be or who gets to decide how the PD budget is spent, or what the relative importance of PD is in the total instructional budget?
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John, that’s a good question. Who should be in charge of Professional Development.
1) New York State provides funding to Teacher Centers who have various courses teachers can take. They have a Board of Directors who choose what they feel is relevant.
2) The principal at each school conducts monthly faculty meetings where he/she may bring in speakers on timely issues. In Buffalo they also are given time of Superintendent’s Conference Days to do in service training on issues specific to that particular school. There are also weekly grade level or subject level meetings where the principal or district may provide instruction of ideas to implement in the classroom.
3) The heads of each department arrange for training sessions, either during school hours (with a sub provided for each teacher) or after school/Saturday’s – either paid or voluntary. During these sessions new ideas are presented, materials or equipment passed out, common classroom issues ironed out – either by the administrator or a guest speaker.
4) Sometimes the district brings in a “big name” for an event which teachers are encouraged to attend. Sometimes the district implements a program which the teachers are required to participate in – such as a workshop on Great Books. When Common Core was first introduced there were numerous meetings on this topic both district wide and in each building where administrators attempted to explain the new expectations (even though they, too, didn’t have a clue).
5) Professional Organizations in each field have regular meetings and events to attend. They also occasionally bring in speakers who are experts in the field. The leadership comes from within the membership. These organizations range from local to regional to state to national. There are sometimes conferences which can be attended to not only conduct the business of the organization, but also to provide workshops and renowned speakers. It is also a networking opportunity.
6) Local Universities and Colleges provide classes on various topics as well as Masters Degree programs (NYS requires all teachers to obtain an Masters Degree in order to maintain their certification).
7) Sometimes publishing companies give training on the implementation of their programs. This is part of the package deal when a district purchases their materials. Training might also be included in equipment purchases using new technology. The District then provides the follow up support.
8) For profit groups or individuals offer training including “free” or to-be-purchased materials for interested participants. These are usually offered nationwide with presenters being advertised and booked at local venues. They must do well as they seem to show up year after year.
9) Sometimes the PTA or other school support group will bring in speakers on a topic for both faculty and parent participation. For example, they might get bring in an author who does a program for the kids during the day and for the community in the evening.
10) Individual teachers will share ideas that are successful with other members of the faculty. This might be through the Teacher Center, through BOCES, at a faculty or grade level meeting, or on a totally volunteer basis.
11) The local BOCES which area school districts financially support provides Professional Development opportunities, sometimes free, sometimes for a small fee.
12) Small groups of teachers may get together on their own time for recreational purposes, but the topic of school and ideas for resolving common issues always seem to creep into the conversation.
13) The school library purchases Professional Development materials for teachers to borrow. The Teacher Center also has a library as does any college with a teacher certification program.
14) The district provides training for new teachers (at least in Buffalo), usually through the Department heads. This includes a beginning orientation prior to the start of school and then monthly meetings to provide feedback and distribute lesson plans and/or scheduling guides. Onsite visits also occur. Sometimes another teacher is assigned to mentor the new teacher.
I’m sure there are more opportunities I have not listed. All of the above were a part of my own PD. Buffalo requires each teacher to list all their PD each year. Often a certificate is given as proof of participation.
Professional Development is paid for in various ways, whether it is budgeted, through local, state, or federal grants, on a volunteer basis, or through fundraisers or dues.
Despite the fact that some of the training is mandatory, it is ultimately up to the individual teacher to make sure they keep abreast of the new ideas in their field. As you can see, the opportunities abound.
As far as the unions, on occasion they might bring in an inspirational speaker, especially if the district allows the union one day a year for such events. (They did away with them in Buffalo in the last contract.) Recently, however, I had the opportunity to hear Diane Ravitch speak when she received an award from the BTF. I would say that Diane’s words were more helpful than any in service I might have attended.
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Tim
Most countries weed out their lower functioning students and only have the college bound in their upper level high school courses. That’s why it’s so difficult to compare test scores between the U.S. And other countries since our total school population is competing against their top students.
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Tim,
Exactly. Too many support this status quo because they are not on the sharp end of it. Too much thinking about the adults and not enough thinking about the children or the ways in which too many urban schools perpetuate and worsen the problem.
How many here have children in a school with a 15% passing rate on state exams? How many have children in a high school with a 50% graduation rate? If it were your children, I can’t help but feel like your perspective would be very different. Parents of these kids are very angry, and are voting with their feet (and their children). People who rationalize them away as misinformed or duped, or try to take away their choice (while protecting their own) are part of the problem.
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Tim’s question: “what high-performing nation has spent decades and many trillions of dollars in sorting its children by race and parental income, isolating 25% or so of its children in high-poverty traditional public schools?”
What do you mean by “what high-performing nation has spent decades and many trillions of dollars in sorting children by race and parental income?”
In fact, I allege that the U.S. state and federal governments are not deliberately causing this to happen. It happens automatically in almost every country in the world because income and price of housing determines where most people live.
There is an answer and here it is: This has happened and continues to happen in every high-performing nation and the results are the same, but it is HIGHLY arguable that the community based, democratic, transparent, non-profit U.S. public schools are doing a better job than the other high-performing countries in educating disadvantaged students in the public schools that were built near where they lived and where they live is determined by housing prices/rents and what their parents/guardians can afford. The nation does not tell these parents where they can live. Economics determines that.
A report out of Stanford found:
“There is an achievement gap between more and less disadvantaged students in every country; surprisingly, that gap is smaller in the United States than in similar post-industrial countries, and not much larger than in the very highest scoring countries.
“Achievement of U.S. disadvantaged students has been rising rapidly over time, while achievement of disadvantaged students in countries to which the United States is frequently unfavorably compared – Canada, Finland and Korea, for example – has been falling rapidly.”
This evidence out of Stanford strongly supports the fact that the money spend by the U.S. government to overcome prejudice, bias and discrimination was and maybe still is working in spite of the corporate public education demolition derby and its propaganda and lies.
http://news.stanford.edu/news/2013/january/test-scores-ranking-011513.html
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Diane says “What research shows us that charters spend more on administration than on instruction”.
Diane, please provide a reference. I’ve never seen anything that says that charters spend more on administration than on instruction.
Most of what I see shows that they spend about the same percentage on administration as district schools. I guess some might assume that they spend less, but I think the independent nature of each school building makes that impractical. The flipside is that districts apparently don’t save anything based on economies of scale.
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John , it took me less than one second searching through Google to find the answer to your latest time-wasting challenge to Diane.
Is Administration Leaner in Charter Schools?
“Holding constant other determinants of school resource allocation, we find that compared to traditional public schools, charter school, on average spend nearly $%800 more per pupil per year on administration and $1,100 less on instruction.”
Click to access OP201.pdf
Do Charter Schools Spend Revenue Differently than Traditional Public Schools?
“While nearly 6,500 charter schools operated across the nation in 2013-2014, over 1,200 charter schools have closed since 1992. The most prominent reason–contributing to 42% of charter school closures–is financial deficiencies. …
“The lower spending on instruction and pupil support is offset, not by administrative costs, but by higher spending on consulting services and operations.”
http://www.edpolicyinca.org/blog/do-charter-schools-spend-revenue-differently-traditional-public-schools
Michigan charter schools spend more on administration, less on instruction, study finds
http://www.mlive.com/education/index.ssf/2012/04/michigan_charter_schools_spend.html
“we find that charter schools on average spend $774 more per pupil per year on administration and $1141 less on instruction than traditional public schools.”
https://schoolfinance101.wordpress.com/2015/12/14/pondering-chartering-what-do-we-know-about-administrative-and-instructional-spending/
John, you have the right to ask anything you want to ask no matter how ill informed and ignorant it is, but I also have that same right, and I think you are either a shill for the corporate public education demolition derby or a deliberately ignorant fool.
My BIG question is why didn’t you use Google like did did to find the answer to your question before you asked it?
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Lloyd,
What Diane said is that “charter schools spend more on administration than on instruction.”
What you have found is some references that say that they spend a greater percentage *relative to* district schools. There are other articles that say they spend less. I said they spend roughly the same.
Diane said they spend more on administration than instruction. That states that more of their money goes to administration than instruction. That is absolutely false.
Read more carefully before you get out your red pen and waste your time finding references refuting something that nobody said.
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The sources I linked to were mostly studies that compared spending in corporate charters to public schools and proved behind a doubt that most if not all corporate charters were spending more of each dollar they took in on administration that includes consultants and less on instruction. No one can change your false beliefs. No one but you.
And those few sources were just on the first page of the Google search for that topic.
John, you live in a fool’s vacuum that you created for yourself.
The ratio of expenditures in the public schools stay fairly constant over time.
For instance, in 2011-12, administrative costs in public schools were 7.76% of expenditures for the total budget in public elementary and secondary schools.
https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66
For corporate charter schools, that are often opaque in reporting how the allocate their money, I found this from Phys.org.
While charter school advocates criticize public school bureaucracies as bloated and wasteful, it turns out that charters spend more on administration and less on instruction than traditional public schools, according to a new study led by a Michigan State University scholar.
The study, which examines school spending in Michigan, found that charter schools spend nearly $800 more per pupil on administration and $1,100 less on instruction, said David Arsen, MSU professor of education and lead researcher on the project. The study controls for factors such as funding levels, student enrollment and school location.
“Michigan’s traditional public school districts devote 60.5 percent of total expenditures to instruction, while charters devote only 47.4 percent,” the study says. “Charter schools spend less on both basic instruction and added-needs instruction, which includes special education, career-tech and adult education.”
The study doesn’t examine the reasons for the discrepancy in spending. But Arsen said it’s likely related to the fact that 84 percent of traditional public schools’ expenditures are related to personnel costs – mostly salaries and benefits – thus driving instructional costs up.
When it comes to administration costs, charter schools dedicated more than $500 per pupil to general administrative services such as paying organizations to run the school.
http://phys.org/news/2012-04-charter-schools-administration-traditional.html
“PSC/MAXIMUS found that the proportion of funding for both administration (25 percent of spending compared to 11 percent in surrounding school districts) and operations and maintenance were higher in charter schools compared to traditional public schools. Older charter schools carried larger end-of-year fund balances than new schools. Schools operated by “management chains” also had larger fund balances. Schools open for at least three years averaged a 13 percent fund balance, and the chain schools averaged 17 percent. Chain schools used only 35 percent of the budget for instruction compared to 51 percent in other charter schools and 54 percent in surrounding public school districts. Administration consumed 32 percent of the chain school budget compared to 11 percent in surrounding public schools.”
Venturesome Capital:
State Charter School Finance Systems
National Charter School Finance Study
December 2000
This study was funded by the U.S. Department of Education. The content does not necessarily reflect the views of the Department or any other agency of the U.S. Government. This publication is in the public domain. Authorization to reproduce it in whole or in part for educational purposes is granted.
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Lloyd,
I’m not sure what you don’t get here. Diane said charter schools spend more money on administration than they do on teaching.
Simple math. She says administrative salaries > teacher salaries.
Nonsense.
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John, I provided facts from studies with links that show and prove that most if not all corporate charters spend a larger ratio of their budget on administration than public schools.
Instead of providing reputable sources WITH LINKS to prove me wrong, you throw out the word “nonsense” and dismiss everything anyone else says with nothing to support what you think—-NOTHING!
Where are you getting your data to support your thinking—probably from the cherry picking, lying, often fraudulent and manipulating corporate charter industry’s websites?
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Yes, Lloyd. Key word is “ratio”. That is not what Diane said.
I’m not going to argue about whether the ratio is higher or lower. I can provide links that say lower, but I started the conversation by saying that they’re roughly the same.
Diane did not say a higher ratio. She said a higher amount.
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You are playing games with semantics. That is disingenuous. The fact is that a corporate charter school is a for-profit school no matter how we look at it, and to make a profit for the investors, less money goes to every other aspect of the corporate structure. For instance, to pay that high rent or mortgage that goes to the parent company means cutting corners. In the end, what’s left is divided up to pay expenses and salaries and someone has to lose.
What do we call those investors expecting returns?
Who Is Profiting From Charters? The Big Bucks Behind Charter School Secrecy, Financial Scandal and Corruption
“For example, the Lincoln-Martí Charter School in Hialeah paid $744,000 in rent last year — about 25 percent of the school’s $3 million budget, even after the landlord reduced the rent by $153,000. The previous year, the school spent one-third of its income on rent, audit records show.”
http://www.alternet.org/election-2014/who-profiting-charters-big-bucks-behind-charter-school-secrecy-financial-scandal-and
This means that what’s left to fund the operations of the corporate charter school’s adds up to fewer dollars for instruction, expenses and salaries to teachers and administrators so the money in the pie they get to eat is smaller, but that does not negate the fact that reputable studies still reveal that the slice of that pie that goes to the administrators is a much higher ratio than the slice that goes to administrators in public schools resulting in fewer dollars that supports instruction and pays teachers and support staff.
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Lloyd,
Also, Diane’s comment didn’t say anything about comparing to district schools. She simply said that charters spend more on administration than on teaching.
Again, nonsense.
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No, John, if anyone is full of nonsense, it is you because you are splitting hairs and ignoring the complete picture. In the end, after profits are squeezed out of the corporate charter school budget less is left to support instruction, pay expenses and salaries.
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I’m guessing here, but what I think Diane may have intended to say was that charters spend more on administration in relation to instruction than public schools do. That fact is well documented. Where are the promised savings?
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2old2teach,
Yes, I believe that’s what she intended as well, which is what I said when I corrected it.
Lloyd seems to think that I shouldn’t have corrected it or that it is splitting hairs.
FYI, I see mixed data on who spends a larger percentage, but as I said in my post, it doesn’t surprise me that it’s comparable since charters typically have all management within the building and can’t achieve any economies of scale.
I also am not one of those people who thinks that most districts are overrun with administrative staff. There were some glaring exceptions (DC and Newark come to mind), and I do think that large districts do seem to have some excess layers of administration, but I don’t see it in most schools.
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Correct, 2old2teach. Numerous studies show that charters spend more on administration vs. instruction than public schools. I will have a post on this next week with citations to the studies.
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I personally feel that both public and charter schools pay too much for administrative costs. There are many Suoerintendents in NYS who earn more than Governor Cuomo.
I have seen grants where less than half of the funds directly impact the students due to administrative type costs.
Both types of institutions should be held accountable to make sure the resources are used wisely. Unfortunately, turning to the government, a master of funding mismanagement, does not seem to be the answer – not when they are the ones creating the problems.
One final point: The Buffalo Public Schoold was required by the state to hire an expensive educational consultant to identify the problems in the district. I laughed when I read the results – any teacher in the BPS could have developed the same list for free. We didn’t have to do any research, we lived it every day.
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flos56,
Not to mention that 50% of RTTT funds went to State Ed.
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Bingo
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‘ “but I would wager that if poverty was seriously addressed the school problems could be more easily handled.”
Yes, of course, but that can’t be a rationalization for doing nothing.’
Now why would you choose ‘doing nothing” as the alternative to seriously addressing poverty as if addressing poverty is the one monolithic solution?
” I’m not trying to force this option on anyone, but I will defend my parents’ rights to expect this for their children.”
So you operate a charter school. You have the talking points down parroted by the reformistas. If you don’t care to have your school tarred with the same brush as those championed by oh so benevolent corporate investors, then don’t parrot the reformista talking points on public education. If you have paid any attention to the research oriented posters on this blog, you have found plenty of evidence in opposition to your mantra. I would applaud your school if you actually do pay high salaries and good benefits to your employees and have working conditions that still allow them to have a personal life. I would admire a school whose Board actually reflects the needs of the community and provides for a voice for the families (and taxpayers) who support the school. I would support a school that is actually providing a well rounded program that encourages a love of learning and a belief in the students that they can lead successful fulfilling lives that benefit their communities. I would admire a school that invests in the improvement of its programs and staff and resists paying huge management fees and salaries to a select few. If your school meets these criteria, the go for it, but choose another venue other than a pro public education blog to spout your agenda.
“It may well be that the single biggest issue is the degree to which the most disruptive behavior and lowest expectations have been allowed to set the tone and culture in many urban schools. The 80-90% of the kids in these schools that would be doing better in a different environment are the key here.”
I have to agree that disruptive behavior is a very important variable. No teacher who removes a student from a classroom should expect to see that student back in their room ten minutes later. I once gave a student the option of leaving the class or joining in on the class instruction like the rest of the class. He chose to leave. When he returned (the following day?) he tried to claim that I had kicked him out. The class quickly set him straight. He had chosen to leave. He sat down and joined the class. I would like to be able to say he went on to be a model student (he had the ability) but he was caught up in the gang life and eventually just stopped showing up. He didn’t give me any problems after that, though. Lower expectations…much more complex issue than can be quickly addressed. It starts with giving our youngest students all the support we can in the classroom and with wrap around services. It is much harder when the kids are older and have fallen further behind. Much of the problem can be traced to poor attendance that is already a long term habit. How do we get those kids to school? Younger siblings who need baby sitters. Loss of housing. No boots or hats. No raincoats. Inadequate transportation. I worked for a school system that tried to do what you suggest. the “strivers” had access to advanced programs. At the high school, those who chose a college oriented path got their own text books. No one else did. The school district was only able to provide class sets that may be shared by 150 students. They were also big an perks for favored administrators, while the infrastructure crumbled. Can you imagine having the heat go out in the middle of the winter and teachers being told to find rooms on their own that still had heat to hold their classes? Doesn’t that sound to you like an administrative task? Reformers like to talk about money being thrown at education. I have yet to hear them come up with credible data to support that contention. To suggest that we focus only on the 80-90% who are ready to learn, though, is not something that the public schools do. Stripping the public system of the easier to educate is not a viable solution. Charters are clamoring for more public money; how do you argue that they have not already devastated systems like Philadelphia?
“Maybe we all agree that the system isn’t working for these kids and just differ on what the solution is (though there are a disturbing number of voices saying that there is no problem).”
Yes, we differ on the solution; I can’t say I have heard anyone claim that there are no problems. The opposite of the reformistas’ mantra is not inaction.
“We used to be the best because other countries were so far behind us. Now, other countries have made huge improvements and we have stagnated, or even gotten worse as a result of changing demographics.”
What does the best mean? Test scores? Never even close to the best. Progressive teaching methods? Adopted by educators around the world. Changing demographics? Well if you are going to look at test scores our disaggregated data stands up very well against the disaggregated of other countries. Of course, with over 20% of our children now living in poverty and over 50% of school age children from low income families, we face huge problems. We certainly haven’t been throwing much money their way!
“– Failure of the teaching profession to work on continuous improvement of the profession.”
You don’t blame teachers who a re largely powerless, but they sure have dropped the ball when it comes to improving teaching! Huh? So we get mandated standards and curriculum and scripted lessons that denigrate the teaching profession. Then we get due process rights stripped and drive by teaching recruits either from the “bestest of the best” or H-1B visas. Tell all those teachers who spent their own money on advanced degrees or workshop courses (who then had advancement for advanced training denied). Continuous improvement of the profession? Is it FL where that means a high SAT score?
John, I am sure you are genuinely an advocate for your parents. That’s fine but if you don’t want to take some heat for charter school and reformista failures, then don’t post here. We are about public education. You are not.
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2old2teach,
Thanks for the largely constructive post.
“Now why would you choose ‘doing nothing” as the alternative to seriously addressing poverty as if addressing poverty is the one monolithic solution?”
I don’t at all. My point is that we need to be doing multiple things. We need to work on poverty, but we need to work on education as well.
I don’t have “talking points”, and I’m not parroting anybody. I just have some opinions that differ from yours. I read all the research on both sides, and I read this blog primarily to find out opinions and research that differ from my opinions.
You do, in fact, describe many aspects, of my school, but most here will not support *any* charter school, regardless of what you’ve described.
I agree with everything that you said in the paragraph about students and challenges, though I wonder how you can say things like “Much of the problem can be traced to poor attendance that is already a long term habit” without acknowledging that that habit developed while a student was attending another school.
“To suggest that we focus only on the 80-90% who are ready to learn, though, is not something that the public schools do. Stripping the public system of the easier to educate is not a viable solution.”
This is the disingenuous part. As Tim pointed out, we already do this stripping, we just do it by neighborhood and you have to be able to afford it.
Also, I don’t suggest that we focus only on the 80-90%. I suggest that we stop letting the 10-20% define urban education for the majority of students.
“I can’t say I have heard anyone claim that there are no problems. The opposite of the reformistas’ mantra is not inaction.”
How many articles say there is “no crisis”? How many say that 100% of the problem is poverty and that there is nothing that we can do to improve our schools? How many blaming parents exclusively? Where are the articles in which school districts, schools, or teachers express an ounce of humility or responsibility for improvement regarding these challenges?
“You don’t blame teachers who a re largely powerless, but they sure have dropped the ball when it comes to improving teaching! Huh?”
Absolutely. IMO, teacher preparation and professional development in this country is indefensible.
“So we get mandated standards and curriculum and scripted lessons that denigrate the teaching profession.”
I agree, but I believe this is largely because teachers have not taken the lead and proposed alternatives or other improvements. These crappy initiatives are filling a vacuum caused by the profession not addressing the many issues I’ve mentioned. I’m sure you disagree. Perhaps you can share some data about the big initiatives I’m missing.
” We are about public education. You are not.”
No, your are about a segment of public education. You do not include the families that go to my school. They are public education students too, and you prove my point by your statement. You care about them if they can be counted as district students, but not if they get fed up and leave. Then, they are no longer your problem and you can point at “those schools” as evil as if they are somehow not made up of and for those very students that urban education is failing.
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“No, your are about a segment of public education. You do not include the families that go to my school. They are public education students too, and you prove my point by your statement. ”
Since when does taking public funding determine that an organization is a public institution?
At the beginning of my teaching career, I worked for a private school that received funding from public school districts for multiply handicapped students ( just before before PL94-142). We were not public nor did we claim to be but we got public funding. My current home district belongs to a special ed consortium into which several districts feed for low incidence disabilities of all types. It is a public institution and is totally funded by the districts that belong to it. It’s governance is public and transparent. It has served the member districts very well.
As to whether I care about your students or not…are you kidding?! I understand your passion for your students. That is the way you should feel. Should I claim that you have no feeling for those children not served by your school? Ridiculous! I believe in a public system with a transparent system of governance under the control of the public that funds it. I share your frustration with bureaucratic intransigence in the public schools that sometimes appears to stifle the best of what we have to offer. I do not see slowly dismantling this public institution and placing it in private hands as a solution that serves the best interest of our country or of our children. While your motives may be totally altruistic, there are too many players in the charter industry who are not driven by their desire to better serve children.
“…teachers have not taken the lead and proposed alternatives or other improvements.”
I believe I just read a comment of a teacher who wrote about a teacher led initiative to provide school improvement alternatives all of which were rejected as being too expensive. I’m sure they were given no budget to consider and I am equally sure no one thought to deconstruct those proposals and figure out what they could do of a more modest nature. I am equally sure that the teachers were not provided with an opportunity to revise their suggestions based on the criticism of those in charge. This is not an isolated instance. I am sure that every teacher here, retired and working, could tell you of similar events.
From where do you think the pedagogy used in your school has come? Do you really think teachers have nothing to do with the development of teaching? How little you think of the quality of your own teachers! I hope you don’t show them the disdain you are showing for their profession. I am assuming that since you care for your students so much that you are providing them with highly qualified teachers. From what you are saying, though, I wonder at your definition of highly qualified. Schools today and 100 years ago look nothing alike. They have changed drastically since when I was in elementary school in the 1950s and 60s, thank goodness. Schools made huge advances especially during the peak of the civil rights movement. Funding for and attention to the gains we made then have largely disappeared although throughout the following decades we have continued to educate more children of increasingly disparate backgrounds.
” IMO, teacher preparation and professional development in this country is indefensible.”
I agree. TFA has to go. Relay graduate schools have got to go. Fast track? Nope. Ask yourself how these legions of incompetent teachers manage to get hired and prepare so many to lead productive lives. Are there poor programs? Probably. We certainly have been perfecting fly-by-night college programs in recent decades. Most of them seem to be for profit operations. Where teacher prep programs cannot succeed is in the districts that fail to provide the support that new teachers need. From my viewpoint watching lots of younger people venture into the working world, I can’t say I have seen anyone who hit the ground running. Every occupation has a learning curve. Some professions support their new recruits much better than others.
‘ “To suggest that we focus only on the 80-90% who are ready to learn, though, is not something that the public schools do. Stripping the public system of the easier to educate is not a viable solution.”
This is the disingenuous part. As Tim pointed out, we already do this stripping, we just do it by neighborhood and you have to be able to afford it.’
What a cop out. “We already do it, so why can’t we too?” What I find disturbing is the destruction of public schools for the children charters can’t or won’t take or for those whose parents chose a public education in a neighborhood school. In too many neighborhoods, that is no longer a choice. We do not have the resources to run a quality dual system. We have to be careful of how we spend limited public dollars. Charters will demand more and more from strained public resources because of their expansion and eventually because of the loss of “philanthropic” support. Let’s face it. A lot of private dollars will stick around only as long as there are lucrative tax incentives. Then again, if we are going to play the choice card, why can’t I choose not to send my tax dollars to a school that won’t educate my child? Don’t give me that $$ following the child meme. No one develops a budget based on individual shares to be claimed by each student. All that being said, funding public schools so heavily through local property taxes is inherently unfair to those districts with a small or inadequate tax base.
‘I wonder how you can say things like “Much of the problem can be traced to poor attendance that is already a long term habit” without acknowledging that that habit developed while a student was attending another school.’
I don’t understand what you are trying to say. I was referring to a problem common in low income communities. Students of all ages are less likely to attend school on a regular basis because of obstacles that those in more economically stable communities do not face. I never had to stay home to take care of a younger sibling while my parents worked. I never wondered when or where I was going to sleep at night. I didn’t worry about missing a bus or having clothing appropriate to the weather. My health was good, and I had easy access to medical care. These all are problems that many of my high school students faced.
“My point is that we need to be doing multiple things. We need to work on poverty, but we need to work on education as well.”
We agree on this point. Unfortunately, the effects of poverty have been used to declare too many schools, without the resources necessary to mitigate those effects, failures. Test scores are a very poor measure for many reasons. These days, I see scant evidence that we are “working” on poverty. I do see some schools with very strong leaders serving their communities in ways we should try to duplicate.
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2old2teach,
“Since when does taking public funding determine that an organization is a public institution?”
It doesn’t. IMO, educating public school students is what determines it. If you posit that a publicly elected school board is what does it, then your cooperative venture isn’t public, nor are most public transportation, public libraries, public roadways, etc.
I apologize if it sounded like I was saying that you personally don’t care about my students. I’m confident that you would and do. What I was saying is that our education system treats students from low income families with disdain. They are forced to be in classes with frequent interruptions, unmotivated students, chronic absenteeism, etc. Suburban students are not.
“While your motives may be totally altruistic, there are too many players in the charter industry who are not driven by their desire to better serve children. ”
Yes, there are too many, I don’t support for-profit charters.
Re professional development, there are certainly some examples of where it’s working, but the vast majority of teachers that I’ve spoken with consider it absolutely useless. They feel the same way about teacher prep programs. Surveys seem to indicate the same. Most beginning teachers feel totally unsupported and feel they are left on their own to try to improve their skills.
.
“Do you really think teachers have nothing to do with the development of teaching? How little you think of the quality of your own teachers!”
I think the world of my teachers. One of the things I admire about them the most is their constant quest to get better at what they do and to reach kids that are challenging. I see that in the classroom, but I also see it in the continuous professional development and feedback, the academic coaches, etc. I see some of that in some district schools, but not enough.
Why the conclusion that TFA and Relay have to go? Most studies show TFA teachers, with their minimal experience, doing about as well as experienced teachers. Should that tell us something about who we are attracting to teaching, how we are preparing them, and how we support them?
Education programs at most colleges are cash cows. They are typically the least competitive programs, have the lowest expenses for faculty, etc. I’m not teacher bashing, these are just facts.
“What a cop out. “We already do it, so why can’t we too?”
I am not justifying not educating the most challenging students. I’m am saying that we already segregate them into schools where they are grouped with less challenging students whose families can’t afford to move. We denigrate the changes of large numbers of low income kids and find that acceptable because it doesn’t happen in our white, suburban schools.
As I mentioned in another thread, the issue is not charters that “wont’ educate my child” or “can’t or won’t take” children. This is largely fiction. What I see is some parents who subsequently leave the charter because they don’t like the accountability and prefer that they be in a school that won’t call them about missed homework, won’t take their child out of class for yelling obscenities at the teacher, etc.
“A lot of private dollars will stick around only as long as there are lucrative tax incentives.”
The “tax incentives” for donating to a charter school are exactly the same as those for donating to a district school. The narrative about the philanthropists getting a return is a huge lie told by those who aren’t willing to look at why they support charters instead of district schools. The answer is that they support change and there is little to see in district schools. If their support can be rationalized away as being somehow self-interested, that inconvenient fact can be ignored.
” I do see some schools with very strong leaders serving their communities in ways we should try to duplicate.”
I agree 100%, I just don’t care if they are charter or district. I see lots of evidence that many district schools (and so many policies) actively discourage strong school leadership while charters are built around that very concept.
Take an excellent teacher with great leadership potential and great ideas about what teaching and learning should look like in a school. Which environment encourages that leadership and offers the ability for that person to run a school as long as they have the ability to convince parents that their children should attend and can deliver results?
The school and academic leadership that I see in top performing charters just blow me away. There are many people in traditional public schools that have the exact same potential, but I think the environment to actualize it is better when leadership is at the building level than in the typical district structure.
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I might add that Diane posted an article from The74 earlier today. They certainly have a slant, but there’s actually some good journalism happening there as well.
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John – this article doesn’t jive with my personal experiences as an educator, plus it villainizes veteran teachers. Seniority doesn’t equate to senility. Usually teachers who work in inner city public schools are dedicated, caring individuals. This article paints them as incompetent fools with charters being a panacea.
The Buffalo News also cherry picks details about Charter Schools presenting them in a positive light while making apples and oranges comparisons that don’t really address the issues.
I’ve come to be wary of the written (and spoken) word, especially ones which include “talking points”.
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