Paul Thomas: Why Education Does Not Trump Poverty

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1. 2old2tch says:

   July 16, 2013 at 12:12 pm

   Thomas’s article certainly provides a worthwhile rebuttal to the no excuses mantra. However, I would also like to know what percentage of disadvantaged students who do achieve a college degree fare better than those students who do not go on to higher education. I don’t want kids thinking that there is no way out. I rather suspect that hard work pays off even if it would be easier to just be born rich.

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   • Louisiana Purchase says:

     July 16, 2013 at 12:44 pm

     I’m sure it’s better for the kids who graduate from college than if they didn’t, regardless of what situation they came from. That’s not Thomas’ point. The point is that kids who are born to privilege will do better than those that aren’t; even if those born to privilege never even graduate from college. Bill Gates, I’m looking at you.

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     • 2old2tch says:

       July 16, 2013 at 11:51 pm

       I realize that Thomas’s point was “that kids who are born to privilege will do better than those that aren’t…” They have access to the connections that give them a huge head start. If we have to prove that advantage with statistics, then perhaps we should also highlight the advantages that further education provides with stats. I was suggesting (poorly) that we not get hung up on the advantages of great privilege that are not available to most of society. We can’t frame our solutions in terms of wealth inequity.

     • Duane Swacker says:

       July 17, 2013 at 8:09 am

       2o2t,

       “We can’t frame our solutions in terms of wealth inequity.”

       Will have to disagree with you here. We have to frame solutions in terms of wealth inequality, justice demands it!

     • 2old2tch says:

       July 17, 2013 at 7:22 pm

       Duane,
       The solutions, I believe, must be based solely on services, practices,… that will impact the educational opportunities and the possibility of real advance. Cost is a separate though real issue that can be addressed separately. Otherwise, we leave ourselves open to the oft heard refrain that throwing money at “the problem” does not and has not provided a cure. As educators, we can come up with models that will serve students better. How to fund these initiatives will have to involve a discussion of funding and what we as citizens want education to provide. We are allowing the discussion to be framed by those with money and power but without expertize. Educators have the expertize and must fight with our strength. As citizens (and parents) we can address the social/political/economic consequences of the huge and growing wealth disparity.

       I think we basically agree. My question is how do we best change the game?

2. FLERP! says:

   July 16, 2013 at 12:33 pm

   So if you already have money, you are more likely to have money than someone who doesn’t have money, even if they go to college and you don’t. Ok.

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3. Cap Lee says:

   July 16, 2013 at 1:44 pm

   I am sick of talking about it but here goes: No excuses, even if it succeeded, would be with mindless and useless artificial information. Poverty, by itself does not hurt learning. However, without support systems it devastates learning. I had poverty students in my school that graduated from a university. But they had strong support. I had poverty kids in my school that struggled. So don’t break your arm patting yourself on the back for succeeding with poverty kids if they come from strong homes.

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   • FLERP! says:

     July 16, 2013 at 2:19 pm

     I think this is a huge, huge distinction that gets lost in the “it’s about poverty” versus “it’s not about poverty” debate.

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     • jon says:

       July 16, 2013 at 4:34 pm

       Then should we find solutions instead of debating it for the sake of argument?

     • FLERP! says:

       July 16, 2013 at 9:49 pm

       Sounds good. Fixing broken homes is challenging, but I’m all ears.

   • LH says:

     July 17, 2013 at 4:03 pm

     This is an interesting comment you pose re: poverty and support systems. I have to agree that without strong and consistent support systems ANY student has a higher likelihood of faltering socially, emotionally and academically. However, I do believe there are extra obstacles that families from poverty face which directly impact student learning and success; specifically: access to resources, familial support networks and professional opportunities. I do not believe this is just an issue for schools but it is a widespread community and systemic problem that is not going to be fixed either quickly or quietly.

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4. Ms. Cartwheel Librarian says:

   July 16, 2013 at 1:49 pm

   Money is good, I like money but defining someone as better off for having money is just one point of view.

   Money does give one more options. A college degree however is ususally earned and something that has allowed one to grow, change, understand, question, create, and seek knowledge. Are any of us lower end educators getting rich? No but if we wanted to get rich we could have gone into a variety of jobs including drug dealing and ripping off Medicare.

   I am not promoting poverty, but being rich does not neccessarily mean being “better off.” A college degree may assist in one’s landing in the middle class category or what is left of the middle class. I seem to be sliding down the slippery slope to well, lower middle class.

   I also question the statistics Mr. Thomas cited about teen pregnancy and child and teen death. Should the numbers be percentiles? Without back tracking to the website he listed teen pregnancies at something like 43% of 1000 teens. Did he mean 43 out of 1000 teens? Statistics was never one of my strong points. Anyway, all of his statistics look pretty scary. We all have a lot of work to do.

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5. jon says:

   July 16, 2013 at 2:13 pm

   Social reform is the key that will put an end to poverty. So what is the solution and how can we affect change?

   Currently, the emphasis is put on corp. takeover in education with good reason. However, social reform must be emphasized with more attention to it. Politicians must be swayed first to believe that social reform should be the issue not ed. reform. Townhall meetings is a must in poverished neighborhoods to inform people to stand up to bullies (I mean politicians and corporations) to affect change like a civil rights movement.

   The public must boycott corporations until they redirect their money to social reform (without strings attached) and politicians need to serve the people not lobbyists (entitities like ALEC and others).

   It would be nice to be born rich but that’s not reality. Getting a college degree should not be the only way out of poverty for their are many trades that education is not fulfilling students’ potential. It is the government’s obligation to provide resouces to help individuals out of poverty. These resources must work together to take care of people– beginning at prenatal. We need social reform to focus on a long term solution–not dispersing food stamps and call it good. On the other hand, there are too many loopholes that enable people to abuse the welfare system. That must be resolved. Social reform is a big but imperative issue to this country to closing the economic gap.

   What happened to the idea that we are only as strong as our weakest? Apparently greedy, cynical people don’t give a rats.

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   • dianerav says:

     July 16, 2013 at 2:21 pm

     Jon,
     A new civil rights movement is needed to assert the rights of all to a good education

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     • jon says:

       July 16, 2013 at 4:22 pm

       I believe that is already happening thanks to you and others for your tireless dedication.

   • plthomasedd says:

     July 16, 2013 at 2:37 pm

     Just a typo, jon. Corrected the pregnancy data. Thanks

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     • jon says:

       July 16, 2013 at 4:23 pm

       I’ll credit Ms. CL post above mine for that catch.

6. concernedmom says:

   July 16, 2013 at 2:26 pm

   There is a book that is about a decade old, Class Matters – a series of articles that first appeared in the NY Times.

   “In Class Matters, a team of New York Times reporters explores the ways in which class–defined as a combination of income, education, wealth, and occupation–influences destiny in a society that likes to think of itself as a land of opportunity. We meet individuals in Kentucky and Chicago who have used education to lift themselves out of poverty and others in Virginia and Washington whose lack of education holds them back. We meet an upper-middle-class family in Georgia who moves to a different town every few years, and the newly rich in Nantucket whose mega-mansions have driven out the longstanding residents. And we see how class disparities manifest themselves at the doctor’s office and at the marriage altar. ”

   http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51898.Class_Matters

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7. Duane Swacker says:

   July 16, 2013 at 3:08 pm

   Thomas asks “. . . if kids count. . . ”

   Of course they count, how many of em do I need to to get my $ count higher and higher?

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8. George Buzzetti says:

   July 16, 2013 at 8:35 pm

   Diane is absolutely correct. That is why I work with CORE-CA and am Director of Policy for an old civil and human rights organization whose founding family, the Kings of L.A., who sponsor the largest Martin Luther King Day Parade in the U.S., has over 114 years of civil rights history. We do not take money as do others from the corporations and wealthy individuals. Therefore, we are able to have total credibility well earned over time that any position we take on an issue comes from us not anywhere else. This is what is missing today. Take any organization you know and go to their website, go to their funders and sponsors and board and look. Then think about what that means. That is all.

   Today, we filed an Amicus Brief with the California State Supreme Court on the issue of an employee of a school district being fired for reporting the new principal physically battering her three times and when they reported the incident they were terminated against all the rules. Not one other organization would touch this issue. We have worked on this issue since 1995. This basic issue was audited by the State of California in 1997. This can now be before the court as not just to one employee but to many over many years. How many others do all of you know that something like this has happened to? We have read some on this blog. It is everywhere. More coming soon.

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9. drext727 says:

   July 16, 2013 at 9:08 pm

   Reblogged this on David R. Taylor-Thoughts on Texas Education.

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