Now this is an interesting idea that needs to be deconstructed. Mayor Bloomberg, reputedly worth $20 Billion, suggests that some young people should skip college and be a plumber.
On one hand, that’s good advice for young people who are not interested in going to college. Many, even some who should go to college, can’t afford to go because the cost is so prohibitive. In recent years, the states have shifted the costs to students and made college unaffordable for students unless they are willing to take on heavy debt.
On the other hand, if Mayor Bloomberg really believes this, he should not have gutted so many of Néw York City’s fine vocational programs.
If the mayor is serious, he might look into the German apprenticeship system, which seems to work well. Germany has taken care not to outsource its manufacturing base (as our corporations did), and it has far fewer college graduates than we do.
Diane Ravitch's blog 
Any indication that we are starting to move in the direction of NOT treating kids as though there were or should be identical is a very, very good thing.
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I could not agree more.
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Plumbing could be a good gig for kids with intellectual inclination as wells. It pays well, and you can limit your hours. There’s no work to take home. When you’re off work, you can do whatever you please. You can read what you want! (Granted, the job also involves stenches and unsightly toilet bowls–and customers who accuse you of ripping them off.)
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I agree as well. That is why I have argued in favor of alternatives to traditional geographic admission standards for public schools.
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He is either clueless about the College Readiness sections of the mandated CCS or he is so out of touch, he’s gone!
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I think insisting college for everyone has been a very poor plan. We NEED folks who are vocationally trained. As a matter of fact, after reading this post, I looked up online what it takes to become a plumber… YES, SERIOUSLY considering getting out of the teaching profession; however, I don’t have the physical stamina to do what they do. I think we SHOULD bring back vocational / trade training. Not everyone wants, nor should be a scholar. I don’t believe everyone ABSOLUTELY needs algebra. Personally, I enjoy algebra, geometry, trig, and calculus as a “brain exercise,” however, I’ve not used it beyond teaching/tutoring it to others. Is it necessary for graduating high-school? Someone says so… but I don’t believe so. Heck, I wish I could have had “home economics,” because I can’t cook worth anything. My idea of cooking is standing at the microwave and telling it to hurry up (7 minutes for a baked potato… that used to take an hour in the oven)! Neither of my brothers are college grads… and their life-styles are considerably better than mine… because they’re not loaded down with college debt. I believe we need to bring back trade/vocational training for folks who are NOT interested in a college education… and to improve the chances of kids finishing their high-school careers because they’ll have classes they’re interested in and good at!!!!
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“I think insisting college for everyone has been a very poor plan. We NEED folks who are vocationally trained.”
Absolutely, but let me tell you that (in urban schools anyway) that attitude will get you yelled at. If you even SUGGEST that not 100% of the students will be 4-year university bound, you are labeled as a teacher who has “given up on our kids” or worse, a racist who thinks that city/urban/immigrant/minority kids aren’t cut for college, which is just a red herring excuse, because we need strong vocational ed in ALL of our schools, be they 99% non-White or 99% White. Blue collars built this country… how the HELL dare we turn around and tell them that their career paths aren’t good enough for our children. Its a travesty. But that’s what this focus on test scores and graduation rates does – it stigmatizes non-academic career paths. Sad. Just sad.
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Exactly Andrew.
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Next time someone yells at you for that, explain that just because a person doesn’t go to college doesn’t mean that person is going to be a loser. The college-for-everyone talking heads have a tough time fielding that assertion.
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Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg dropped out of college so the lack of a degree didn’t hinder them.
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The German system is worrisome….it uses test scores and puts kids on a path at a very young age. Their voc Ed program has been associated with a decline in IQ. Quality voc programs that begin in grade 11 as they do in Finland is a far better idea.
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I have a feeling that a decline on an IQ tests has little to do with whether an individual is a good plumber, or electrician, or machinist. That being said, I do not like the idea of tracking people into a vocational program at an early age especially with high stakes tests.
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While I agree that it’s wrong to track young people, especially at a tender age, I’ve also found most German tradespeople I’ve met to be better educated than the typical US college grad.
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Here is a great video of a BMW plant in Germany if you want to get an idea of how Germany has kept it’s manufacturing base.
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=KEQdn57Kz1Q&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DKEQdn57Kz1Q
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100 jobs eliminated at that plant. Well, at least the automated arms don’t ask for an oil break.
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100 jobs eliminated at the plant. At least the automated arms don’t ask for an oil break.
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And people don’t have to spend hour after hour, day after day, year after year spot welding the same joint on a car.
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Instead of setting up vocational schools the Mayor is going all out to publicly fund more charters. In today’s New York Post we are told that over $210 million of the DOE’s 2010-14 capital plan is being earmarked for the construction of charter schools.
With many neighborhoods in need of new educational facilities, why isn’t this money being allocated for building public schools? Taxpayer money should not be used to enrich the owners and backers of profit making schools. Moreover, under current law charter schools are required to furnish their own facilities. Why are they being given a free ride at taxpayer expense?
This is the first episode I have seen of NYC giving money directly to charter schools. Are we emulating Florida? It’s bad enough that charters worm there way into public schools with this CO-LOCATION nonsense. Investors can now reap rich rewards on the back of NYC taxpayers.
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Why?
Because, unless he can rewrite the electoral laws one more time, he won’t be mayor again in 2014.
And while I don’t think personal greed is the biggest factor (I would think it is personal arrogance), he has done well while Mayor.
Net worth in 2001, while running . . .
May 2, 2001 – Though he has not made an official announcement, Michael Bloomberg, whose net worth is about $4 billion, is widely expected to run for Mayor (according to Forbes)
Now, with a net worth of $27 billion, he is also the 7th-richest person in the United States (also according to Forbes)
Did his being mayor help him to expand his fortune 7 time over?
I don’t know, but the NY times tell us
¶The mayor can finance one-quarter of New York City’s budget all by himself or the entirety of what the United States spends each year on foreign aid or space exploration.
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I think he just likes hearing himself talk …
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Let me get this straight; every student must do so-called college prep stuff to be “globally competitive.” Vocational programs get slashed along with other extra curriculars. Charter schools are opening with nincompoopery like mandatory college acceptance as a grad requirement or entrepreneurship for kindergarteners. Now he says college isn’t for everyone?
Is this an example of the sort of “critical thinking” that we supposedly have never bothered to teach?
I likes it better when he was telling people what size sodas to drink. And more importantly, who is fixing his plumbing?
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The irony is that the school “report card” for NYC public high schools is grading schools on the number of students who attend college and stay there…so we cannot train them to be plumbers or we loose points.
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They only count SUNY and CUNY schools, not in-state or out-of- state private schools. Students interested in the trades will need to find a way to apprentice themselves. Ask my future son-in-law how much he makes with a heavy equipment operator’s license in the Baaken.depending on where you live, that is 3 or 4 teacher’s annual salaries.
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First I would like to say his empire has grown from $4 billion to $20 billion since 2001, a 400% increase. Makes you wonder why he wanted to become the mayor. Hmmm!
Secondly, teachers were not allowed to encourage students to go to trade school after graduating from HS, even when students did not want to go to college. If a teacher is caught telling a student about trade/technical school, administration would take action against the teacher and charge the teacher with some form of “professional misconduct”.
Bloomberg has perversed the education system to the point of flip-flopping on his own policies.
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Actually, while it’s crude advice from B. it’s not bad advice. Plumbers (and chimney sweeps) will be hard to outsource, and they still pay well, and they can go back to get a real education at a later time–rather than an expensive voc ed college pretending to offer a “good” education.
Maybe Rothstein can give us some advice on viable occupations for the future–that also pay decent wages. Of course, they may plummet along with us all soon too.
I celebrate our plumbers.
Deb
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Yes… I agree… we should ALL celebrate our plumbers… and our waste management folk, and our heating/cooling techs… the vocations that keep so much of our lives that we take for granted in order.
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yes yes yes
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The plumber for my building is from Turkey. The last locksmith I worked with was from Pakistan/
Will Plumbers be hard to outsource? Yes. But will they face competition from capable immigrants from Russia, Turkey and South America? Also, yes.
This is not to attack people who immigrate to the US, just to point out that globalization has many facets which affect future job prospects.
And it is relevant to teaching — H1B visas are used to bring in teachers in shortage areas, such as Science and ESL/
However, low salaries are a major part of the reason there is a shortage of trained people willing to take these positions.
The presence of H1B workers lowers salaries in those areas and is at least partially responsible for their being shortages in the first place.
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It lowers some salaries for some, increases salaries for others. It lowers costs for some, raises costs for others.
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This happened also with Nursing. Except it was Hospitals that did the recruiting and importing. AND some (note, not ALL), take their pensions and leave the country, returning to their native land to live like royalty. so there goes the reinvested $$$ out of our economy.
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When you say “our” economy, who are you talking about? Do I, a first generation citizen count? Does my foster son, a green cardholder but not a citizen yet count?
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when a “shortage is filled” the salary was not as attractive to more people coming to those jobs. when filled by persons who are there only for the temporary time, and then leave, with a pension, (which is part of the ‘perk’ of the job), the pension leaves the local (city/state/federal pool) and is “distributed into another “pool” benefiting the other pool and costing the pool it was removed from in terms of high prices and decreased “resources” . in some case causing an unbalance in the other area. (but some economics person cold explain it better than I).
I am not pointing fingers or making judgements against any person, but i have seen H1Bs also used to break a strike against a hospital’s Nurses, (while it happened “a few years ago”, and i was not so politically sharp then, it did stick in my mind).
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Since you became a citizen, I hope you consider the U.S. economy as yours. Your foster son has not had the chance to make a decision. My brother-in-law came from a foreign country and became a citizen. The U.S. is his country. If one comes to the U.S. to work but intends to return to their native country, then, no, it is not their economy. They remain a foreigner with no stake, beyond their own interests, in the well being of the country.
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Would you say the same thing to a New Yorker that takes his or her pension out of New York to retire in Florida or Puerto Rico? They no longer have any stake in the local economy in New York, no longer buy goods and services from those that purchesed them from the retire.
Where exactly is the boundary of “our” economy?
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last i looked Fla. was part of the US economy, Federal taxes still there, and by the way you are taking this, i’m guessing you would by extension say going away on vaction also pulls from “our” economy… which was NOT the point is was trying to make….
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So paying federal income taxes is what counts? It does seem to have been Mit Romney’s position.
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if you feel the need to take that position, fine join him, i on the other hand will not
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TE,
You will notice I said U.S. since that is the context of the discussion. I imagine that I will move from my community at some point since it is far too expensive for us to consider retiring here, and our kids are all settling elsewhere. As I live in one of the most corrupt states in the country, I feel no great need to beggar myself here.
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My concern here is the “us” and “them” nature of this discussion. They are “our” jobs, your retirement pay should be spent in “our” country, not “their” country. The accident of birth should be all powerful.
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While everyone can understand the desire of people to provide a better standard of living for their family no matter where they come from, the perceived loss of jobs to HB1 workers who are willing to do a job for less knowing that for their current sacrifice they will be able to return to their own countries and live comfortably stings. Our home is here. We have no home to return to that will allow us to live on what would be a pittance here. In most cases I see no problem because I know plenty of people who are doing jobs that no one else will do with the same skill. However, as you move up the income ladder there are many U.S. citizens who have the skills but are denied the opportunities. In the late 60s and 70s there was a call for more engineers. We didn’t need more engineers. Companies wanted more engineers so they could pay less. These are not easy questions to answer. No one has been able to adequately. I do not think I owe the world a life in poverty because so many have no choice. Having said that, we have come a long way from becoming a plumber rather than going to college.
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There are about four million new hires a month in the US economy. There are a total of 65,000 H1B visas for a year. Do you think the H1B visas have a significant impact on the US labor market?
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Dang, TE! Then how come the unemployment rate in Illinois is still 10%? That’s not counting people like my husband and I who are over educated and underemployed. I’m not saying people’s reaction to HB1 workers is totally rational. All it takes is one who is doing a job that you could do (and maybe did) before the employer went looking for cheap employees.
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Things are getting a little better in Illinous: the unemployment rate for April is down to 9.3% or 610,958. The recent drop could, however, have been caused by folks moving out of the labor force.
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I found this blog interesting while I was writing a paper on what is going on in education today for my CCSS class (that I have to take). I was referring to NYC in my story and this came up (I’m not a conservative by any means but I think this is one area we can all get together on). http://conservativeteachersofamerica.com/tag/parcc/
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Many of our special education students tell us they want to repair cars or engage in some other type of trade. Yet we are forced to Core them. Why? If they know, if their parents know, if the damn mayor knows that something else calls to them, why should they be made to feel like failures while trying to “close” read?
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exactly
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Robert Rendo’s Advice: Bloomberg Should Skip Politics, Be a Human . . .
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There’s a lot more to being a plumber that cleaning pipes as the NYDN article states. I certainly don’t believe a 4-year liberal arts college is appropriate for everyone, and Common Core leaves out the one “C” that really SHOULD be common– citizenship. THAT’S the purpose of U.S. public schools– to indoctrinate (for lack of a better term) people into American values so they can self-govern a constitutional republic.
That being said, the continuation of culture is also an important goal, and there’s no reason high school students intending to go right into a trade cannot also learn Steinbeck and Shakespeare, Whitman and Crane. I would even say that this is particularly important for HS grads who are NOT going on the college.
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Many years ago, when I graduated NYC public High School, there were three paths to that door, General, Commercial and Acedemic diplomas. At the ripe old age of (barely) 18, i knew i was not ready or interested in college. After military service and a Trade school program, I did go back to college, then because at the time it was what I wanted. Had I been ‘forced” there originally, it would have been a very expensive waste of time (mine as well as other’s), and money.
IF one wishes one should be give the chance, however there are many paths to success and a meaningful, fulfilling life, and college may not be that path for all. One size does not fit all.
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A couple of years ago I heard a talk given by Dr. Jim Stone of the National Research Center for Career and Technical Education at the University of Louisvlle. He stated that only about 25% of all jobs/careers required a 4-year degree. Therefore, to push the “all students college-ready” agenda doesn’t make sense. I know there are those who say “college and career”, but I know few people focus on the career piece. I am also aware that there may be some bias in the Research Center’s findings but I would hope not.
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In 2005 I transfered from Walton HS, which was being phased out, to Bronx Guild HS, a the first new school at the A.E. Stevenson Campus, both in the Bronx. I will not say anything bad about BG — it is has a vision that puts students first, emphasizes contact with parents and the social work foundation on which learning in areas of high poverty depends. But what struck me was that every year I came to the AES campus another school wide program had been shut down.
One year it was athletics — brand new, never removed from the box gymnastics equipment was placed next to the dumpster (it wouldn’t fit in) to be taken away to a land fill. Another year the automotive bay was shuttered, never to be reopened. My first year it was the Arts — boxes and boxes of art supplies were in the basement. I scavenged some of these for my students, but most of the rest went to waste.
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I think the author is great. To make you career in Plumbing is not a big deal but the thing is that is the student is or not..?? If interested then they could go with plumbing…
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Its not a big deal. We should try to make our career where we are interested. If any one is interested then they must go to choose plumbing…I don’t think it may cause in trouble in their career.
Plumbers Belfast
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there is extremity here. Though being a plumber is a good career, not everybody can be a good plumber.There are other field which others can be expert with.
plumber
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I think this is a great idea by Mayor Bloomberg to help people who can’t afford the college fee.
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