Many readers have contacted me to ask why CNN has not posted Randi Kaye’s interview with me, rebutting Michelle Rhee’s assertions.
This reader, Michael Brocoum, made a copy of the interview and posted it on Youtube. Here it is.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, the interview began with a question about the National Assessment of Educational Progress (you will note that it is misspelled by CNN as the National Assessment of Educational Process). I don’t recall the precise wording, but the question went like this:
“You claim that test scores on NAEP are at their highest point in history, but how do you explain that the scale score for fourth grade reading is only 221? That’s 221 out of 500. That’s less than 50%. Isn’t 50% a failing grade?”
I then tried to explain that scale scores don’t work like that, that the question itself was a completely erroneous interpretation of scale scores. NAEP has a vertical scale, and scale scores in the 4th grade are lower than in the 8th grade. They can’t be converted into a grade in the way that Randi Kaye asserted, although they are useful as measures of progress.
Consider this: the average scale score for 4th grade is 221, but students scoring at the 90th percentile–our top students–have a scale score of 264. By Randi Kaye’s fallacious reasoning, they are failing too! In 8th grade reading, the students at the 90th percentile had a scale score of 307 (on a scale of 500). She would convert that to a grade of 61, which is borderline failing.
Wouldn’t you think that the editor or research staff at CNN would have prevented Randi Kaye from making such absurd assertions?
But it was of a piece with all the questions that followed. I felt as if I were being interrogated by someone who worked for StudentsFirst, not by a reporter seeking to ascertain either my views or the basic facts.
Rhee said at the outset of my interview that the answer to what she thinks is the terrible performance of our schools is merit pay. So Randi Kaye drilled in on that with two questions (one of them was dropped from the show before it aired). She ended up with a quote from someone named Lucas who said he wanted merit pay. That wasn’t exactly definitive, since I was able point out that merit pay has been tried again and again and has always failed to make a difference.
Diane Ravitch's blog 
I DVR’ed the interview and felt the interview was extremely one sided. I felt like Randi Kaye was pushing Rhee’s agenda, as opposed to listening to your counterpoint argument. It is a shame that she was so rudely aggressive to you, and I applaud your class and decorum in the situation. The only constructive criticism, I would give, is to NEVER answer a question starting with the words “you know”. Kaye was tring to throw you off your game, and by saying “you know”, you are allowng your opponent to take ownership of the viewpoint you are advocating, without their consent that they agree with you. I don’t think Kaye KNEW anything beyond what Rhee and her ilk were spouting, and I think the only reason you were invited was to embarrass the other side of the education debate, thereby strengthening their fallacious arguments against public schooling.
Thank you for the good advice.
I was trying to get my views across even though she did not want to hear them.
The trick, which all politicians know, is to give your answer without regard to the question.
“The trick, which all politicians know, is to give your answer without regard to the question.”
Please tell me that you don’t believe that that is the honorable, honest, proper thing to do!!
It is not honorable or honest, but this is what they do. Just watch and you will see it.
I try to answer the question and add what I want to say before they cut me off.
Yes Duane Swacker is is the honorable thing to do when you are being blind-sided!!
Diane had to get the interview back on track which she did. Kaye was relentless in her efforts to trip up Diane. But Diane handled it honorably. Politicians always rework the question back to their agenda. And Kaye was using those tactics with very loaded questions and straw man arguments, so Diane gave it right back to her. If Diane is media savvy. She has to be in order to survive these attacks.
The only advice I would give you Diane is to give it right back to them with a “Wouldn’t you agree…..type of response. Wouldn’t you agree that to invest our tax dollars in merit pay when time after time it has been a failure shows that Rhee is purposely ignoring the facts to promote her agenda?”
So glad someone posted it to Youtube. CNN is playing games. If Kaye had succeeded in her quest to embarrass your position, you can bet that video would have gone up the moment the interview finished airing.
I’m disappointed in the editorial viewpoint of the interviewer, but the anecdotal type of evidence that she brought up is just the kind of thing that tends to shape public opinion.
Your responses were clear and fair, but did not carry the emotional impact that these reformy stories tend to have.
Our society itself is moving away from an interest and respect for math and science. The way the interview was conducted is itself evidence of this.
To blame teachers for this social shift is absurd, especially in light of the improving trend in test scores over decades.
If the discussion were “ok, progress is being made, but here is some evidence that other nations are progressing faster…” then we’d have something to discuss– but the goal here is vilifying teachers, not improving education, and you get an interview like this.
I’d like to see a similar full interview of Rhee. I wonder whether she would be challenged and interrupted in quite the same way.
Rhee and the reformers have set the national tone and defined the terms. CNN is just parroting what they believe is national sentiment.
There is much work to be done to save schools from Privatization. I think that the only thing that will stop it is real and justified outrage about some of the scandalous abuses of power, money, and students that are happening in the districts that are being privatized.
Another problem is that reformers have the same playbook in every state– Common Core, Charters, Broad/Koch/Gates support, etc. But the local resistance trying to save their democratic public schools are tied to local laws and political structures.
This structural imbalance gives the privatizers a natural advantage, an advantage they are playing to the fullest.
I listened to the interview three times. It is obvious that you did a credible job. Contrary to recent famous faux pas (is there a plural?), your only “flaw” was using the ubiquitous “you know.” Frankly, I would not have noticed it if Dan had not caught it (speech/debate teacher, lawyer?). My mother used to interrupt us with “No, I don’t know!” I am grateful that you did not, like, subject us to, like, some of the, like, newer speech place holders.
In any case, I think you won that interrogation; you had a credible answer for everyone of her questions. I hope it was as obvious to people who are not informed that she was out to discredit your position, that her mind was already made up. However, your expertise was undeniable, and if one were to compare Michelle Rhee’s credentials to yours there is no doubt who is more qualified to discuss education policy. Perhaps that is why the interview has not yet been posted by CNN.
Thank you! I don’t do, like, and I wasn’t conscious of “you know.” Now I will watch out for it.
“However, your expertise was undeniable, and if one were to compare Michelle Rhee’s credentials to yours there is no doubt who is more qualified to discuss education policy. ”
My goodness, I was thinking the EXACT same thing when I was listening to Ms Ravitch’s credentials during the interview.
I just watched your interview. I would like to point out another factor that I haven’t seen addressed. This is the way it happens in my district. We have a pacing guide that tells us what to teach and how long we can spend on it. It also tells us what problems to assign and at many times how to teach it. The guide is waaaaaaaaay to fast for students who are many grade levels behind (which are most in our classes in my district). One of our senior teachers who didn’t get rehired in the transformation process was replaced by TFA because she was using materials other than what our district provided. She was reprimanded for it and fought it. Now she’s not in our school.
I had to redo my lesson for my. Evaluation because I was behind in my pacing guide. It would have been points off. I jumped ahead to where I was supposed to be and my score was lowered anyway because it wasn’t a major topic in my pacing guide. However the topic was in the guide, was part of the curriculum, and was supposed to be covered according to the district.
When students miss a difficult concept, which happens often since they are taking algebra with a grade 4 math knowledge, we are told to keep going. Then we have to write our student learning objectives and tell what % of students will reach them. If they don’t reach the objectives, we aren’t going to do too well on our evaluations. Since only a few kids do well on our standarized test,1 to 3 %, it would be smart to make a semi realistic goal of maybe 30% passing our objective test. No, admin made us put 70% as our goal. That’s insane. Talk about teaching to a test, or people cheating. That begs for teachers to cheat. I don’t know if any of our teachers did, but I wouldn’t be surprised. I taught to the test. I had to. I wouldn’t have passed my evaluation.
Also, the teachers are undermined in class when there are discipline issues. They cannot send disruptive students to the vice principal. The students are brought right back to their classes and the teachers are given a talking to in front of that student. I was physically threatened and it took 3 phone calls to get an admin to come help me. When he arrived, not only did he undermined me in front of the student (who is now in jail for stabbing someone), but he did it in front of the class. How does any of this help teachers succeed in teaching their students?
Educator, hearing your story brings tears to my eyes. But I am sure that your experiences are shared by many thousands more of teachers. What teachers have to endure is beyond belief, they are cursed if they do and damned if they don’t. Only a Kafka could do justice to the travails of teachers in 2012. If Frank McCourt were still alive, I am sure that he would be defending teachers against the relentless and constant swiftboating and demonizing. Teachers are like caged animals being tormented, poked and prodded from all sides.
IN our district the scope and sequence aren’t even based on anything other than our testing schedule.
Last year our Geometry EOC was given 6 weeks prior to the end of classes because that is when the state scheduled it. Our district’s solution was to take the old scope and sequence, itself unrealistic, and simply squeeze it into 30 weeks instead of 36, with no consideration for normal high school events like class meetings, picture days, early release days, pep rallies etc. let alone time for the required assessments the district mandates!
I had a fight this year to replace the district assessments with in house assessements aligned with our teaching so we can actually look at what our students need (I am an intructional coach.) At least my administration is supportive.
Oh, and I’ve said it previously, but you are awesome for supporting us and our students. Thank you. It’s criminal how the general public perceives us. Thanks for saying something!
The tone of the interview was adversarial but you blew her out of the water and she knew it. Good for you, wonderful job!
I agree with you, Diane. After watching I thought you did what good politicians do…which is to find a way to get in their points despite the questions. You did that AND answered all her inquiries. I thought her desperation really showed when she asked something like, “So you are saying they (teachers) don’t want more pay?”
I thought, “Wow, did she really just waste air time to retort with that ridiculous question? Is she now trying to portray Diane as AGAINST teachers…that doesnt even fit the narrative.”
As far as speech place holders, I was amazed that you were as quick and fluid as you were so I didn’t notice, but I see the earlier point about not attributing knowledge to the other side. On the other hand, it shows some respect for the interviewer to assume they are well-versed. I think we assumed they had done their homework. Problem is their tutor was Rhee.
Why oh why do people fall for the snake oil salespeople of the world? Michelle Rhee is so awful. You all would be amazed how long it took the good folks of Atlanta to see through the former superintendent of Atlanta Public Schools. Well, I guess it took data AND confessions of outright cheating by those involved. There are always the truthsayers hanging out, speaking up and being portrayed as foolish, or as the enemy. I so appreciate Diane for speaking the truth and sharing others’ stories every day.
I apologize if my comments about “speech place holders” was offensive. Although I would never compare myself to you when it comes to educational policy, I was speaking more as a fellow traveler as “you know” is apt to pop up in my own conversation. I should have left Dan’s more cogent critique as the sole remark.
My remark was not to presume to put myself on the same level of knowledge as
Ms. Ravitsch, but instead to point out the flaw which I am so guilty of myself in speaking and tried to fix, that I have become overly aware of it when anyone speaks. Sorry if there was any confusion. BTW, I am a music teacher, but my father is a lawyer and my mother taught English- I couldn’t get away with nothing, ahem that is ANYTHING, growing up 😉
Your posting was good advice. Mine was overkill.
I couldn’t get away with anything either. My mother had eyes in the back of her head.
You were great.. GO DIANE!!!
Diane, you were magnificent. Every attempt at a “gotcha,” you deftly boomeranged back into her lap! Well done!
Calm, cool and collected, Diane! Thanks for a job well done!
Thank you, Michael, for taping the interview and sharing!
I hadn’t gotten a chance to see it until now. You were prepared for every question. She had what she obviously thought were “gotcha” questions, but she was either not prepared for you to actually know what you were talking about or was just uninformed. So despite her questions, to me it looked like you got the last word on every point. Thank you! (and I really was trying to be as objective as possible) Regards,
Wendy
I suspect she was prepped by Rhee and we all know how ill informed she is….Bravo, Diane, Bravo!
Notice how CNN has still not posted this video, but they have plenty with Rhee.
I suppose they are not proud.
Thank you for the great job you did on this interview!
Diane, you did an excellent job and sounded like the expert that you are! It was obvious that Randi was trying to corner you so that reflects badly on CNN. However, it also reminds us that the media seems to be so supportive of the educational grifter Michelle Rhee. It seems so obvious to me that she and her ilk are frauds but the media either doesn’t get it, or pretends that they don’t get it. As we all suspect, even journalists are now being told what to say by the people who are paying their salaries. We’re all in serious trouble when that happens.
Diane, you rock! Always respectful cool calm and collected in difficult situations.
thank you, that’s the best way to be
Diane, I got up at 5:30 Saturday morning to hear you out here in Seattle, and I was not disappointed. The only disappointing thing was CNN not airing it. So, it’s great to see/hear you again, to reaffirm that I was right, when I thought at the end, “YES!”
You know (ha), I’ve shared the video on Facebook, where somebody just described the 2 participants as “a dippy airhead” and “a picture of reason and grace.” Oh my. Thanks again!
Thanks for making me chuckle!
I think you were absolutely brilliant and professional, and I’m impressed that you kept your cool, giving answers using facts to questions from a robot who had been programmed by the ignorant.
And without a single cuss word. Wow. Never would have made it, myself.
Diane, you were outstanding! If she had any point to make, it didn’t happen. CNN will probably never post this interview out of frustration over their poor image.
The Gold Medal is yours!
Tremendous job Diane!
I just finally got to see the interview (basic cable TV does not have CNN). Thank you for doing such a fine job countering Randi Kaye’s arguments.
I would love to see what CNN edited out of the interview.
Each time I watch it, I’m inspired. Thanks, Diane.
Attagirl, Diane! That curmudgeon of a presenter couldn’t get the better of you. You were superb.