Rep. Nancy Mace of South Carolina is outraged at the prospect of a transgender woman using the women’s bathroom in the House of Representatives. Her anger is in response to the election of Sarah McBride, a transgender woman, who was elected to Congress by voters in Delaware. Rep. Mace proposed to require anyone who uses a public bathroom to use the one that corresponds to the gender on his/her birth certificate. Trans men (women who became male) would use the ladies’ room; trans women (like Sarah McBride) would use the men’s bathroom.
After some initial uncertainty, Speaker of the House Mike Johnson supported Mace’s proposal.
A reader who calls himself Teaching Economist posted this question and photo on this blog:
Would you feel comfortable with this trans male obeying the policy and using the women’s restroom?
This is Patricio Manuel, professional boxer, born in Santa Monica, CA, 39 years old. Born female, now a transgender man.
At present, there are no trans men in Congress. When the day comes that there is a trans man, this will be a problem for Nancy Mace, Marjorie Taylor Greene, and other culture warriors.
How will they feel about having trans men like Patricio Manuel in their bathrooms?
Diane Ravitch's blog 
Yes, excellent point.
LikeLike
The saying ‘Be careful what you wish for ‘ comes to play here. They didn’t think this through, did they?
LikeLike
Uh, if I am not mistaken, public women’s bathrooms (where nobody bathes, so the name is an oxymoron) have stalls for individual toilet users, no? So how does having a trans woman in the next stall affect anyone? This seems another cultural distraction dreamt up by the GOP so we don’t pay attention to our real problems and expect them to act on those.
LikeLike
I have gone to church with a transgender woman with whom I’ve shared the multi-stalled “women’s restroom.”
As a straight woman, it caused me no distress to be in an adjoining stall. Why would it? The individual stalls provided my privacy–just as I would expect it to with a straight woman in the adjoining stall.
Nancy Mace is a disgrace in so many ways.
LikeLiked by 1 person
“bathrooms (where nobody bathes, so the name is an oxymoron”
Frankly I don’t get much rest in them either.
LikeLike
The names–bathroom and restroom–are euphemisms for urination and defecation rooms.
LikeLike
Not an oxymoron–that’s a term that is self contradictory, like “Congressional ethics.” I think you meant “euphemism.”
LikeLike
The rest comment is freaking hilarious.
LikeLiked by 1 person
John 13:34
34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
The Greek word Jesus used in this account was agape, or sacrificial love. Elsewhere, Jesus urged his followers to feel this way about one’s enemies. In other words, we should be willing to sacrifice our lives for the good of our enemies.
How does one behave this way and go out of the way to create scapegoats? Let us conspire to be good to each other.
LikeLike
“Let us conspire to be good to each other.“
Great idea Roy!
LikeLike
So beautiful, Roy!!!
LikeLike
This is a really good article that describes the history of how trans identifying males stepped on the rights of lesbians and women in order to make “inclusion” a more important right that that of the safety of lesbians, women, and children. While not all trans identifying males are fetishistic, there are many who are, (a relative of mine and an old friend of mine have proved this to me without a doubt), and we should not treat the bathroom issue so casually. It’s an important one as women need privacy and separation from males in order to feel safe in vulnerable moments and states of undress or during her menstrual cycle. A woman has a right to say “no!” Indeed, there are plenty of males who fetishize being in women only spaces, and video as well as photographic evidence to prove it. https://open.substack.com/pub/badfacts/p/how-transgender-women-stepped-on?r=9benm&utm_medium=ios
LikeLike
Stop projecting your own fetishes onto trans women.
Weren’t you the same trolls who posted here right before the election lying about an epidemic of rape by trans women in California women’s prisons. And when I checked out the “links” you provided, I learned that they were a group of right wing women so obsessed with penises and vaginas that they were intentionally lying in order to cause great harm to trans women. I give you the benefit of the doubt that your depraved lies are due to a mental illness and not a lack of any human morality.
I don’t know why you are so obsessed with penises and vaginas but please stop projecting your own fetishes onto others.
LikeLike
Don’t use the mental illness cop-out. There are many with mental illness, including me, that aren’t ginning up culture panica. To blame mental illness for these culture wars is insulting to those of us with actual mental illness.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Thumbs up from a fellow sufferer of mental illness.
👍
LikeLike
TOW,
I am confused about your point, since I don’t “blame mental illness for these culture wars”. That’s the anti-trans side, claiming that trans people suffer from a mental illness, and we have seen a regular commenter here who gets a lot more kindness and respect than I do making pretty nasty innuendoes about the severe mental health problems of trans people – similar to what this person did who I replied to.
I hope you don’t agree with the comment above by “maestramalinche” about the “fetishistic” trans women who are not “safe” for women’s rooms. They are presented as being dangerous to other women.
I assume most people here know that comment is about ginning up hate for trans people, and whether or not they have a mental illness has nothing to do with it.
And as noted below, people who acknowledge they suffer from mental illnesses can be advocating for anti-trans policies (or advocating that Dems be silent and just let Republicans enact anti-trans policies) and their dislike of trans people or their skepticism of whether trans people actually exist has nothing to do with their mental illnesses.
I don’t know why some people are so obsessed with the genitals of trans women, but I imagine in some cases it is not just because they are immoral people lacking an ounce of compassion, but because they are mentally ill and trans genitals are what they obsess about.
“While not all trans identifying males are fetishistic, there are many who are”
“While not all union teachers are pedophiles, there are many who are.”
Maybe some people say these types of things because they believe it is true and not to just gin up hate, but then the question is why are some people so quick to believe that these things are true? Using words like “many” to imply a widespread and dangerous problem denotes something about those speakers.
I wish other people would have called out this attempt to call out hate, instead of wrongly assuming I was insulting all people with mental illnesses. But happy to apologize if my unclear writing made anyone believe I was.
LikeLike
While not all males are rapists, 99% of people who rape are male. Perhaps this reality showcases why every culture and every society has created sex segregated spaces. Trans women are men, their medical needs are male, their rape statistics, crime statistics, and propensity to violence are male. The trans women I am friends with today do not use women’s bathrooms or changing rooms. They know that they are men. But not all such trans identified men and heterosexual cross dressers do. As a woman, I do not consent to have any man, no matter how he identifies or dresses, to join me in the next stall over in the women’s restroom, changing room, or spa. It doesn’t matter if you believe in a gendered soul that makes a male’s body non-male, statistics don’t lie. If a trans identified male can enter any woman’s space, then women have no more rights, and any man with any nefarious reason will be able to cross a woman’s boundary. We have to be able to have such conversations if we want the support of feminists and lesbians. I urge people to listen to women in prison who have been raped and harassed by male prisoners, to listen to the women who have had unwanted eyes on them and their daughters in locker rooms and restrooms, and to listen to lesbians who have been told they are transphobic bigots if they do not consent to men who identify as lesbians. It’s okay to acknowledge biological differences. In fact it’s the only way we can protect and defend women’s rights.
LikeLike
Of course, most rapes are committed by men. But trans women are not like ordinary men.
What are the statistics for trans women raping women?
How many women have been raped by trans women in women’s restrooms?
LikeLike
Ordinary men don’t rape people!
LikeLike
The only significant long term study was done in Sweden. The link to the actual study is contained within this brief. It concluded that male patterns of criminality, including violent crimes in male to female transsexuals. The newer data may show a more pronounced pattern of sexual criminality, as currently there are no safeguards or requirements for men identifying as women. In brief, any man who walks into a women’s restroom or changing room can simply declare himself to be a woman, and in many states, this is his right. Several cases have been litigated in different states, Canada, the UK, and other Western nations. Reduxx is a woman run media organization that publishes articles with a high bar for journalistic integrity that reports on such cases worldwide. Hopefully we can all see this as a clear example of conflicting rights and a failure to safeguard women and children. https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/
LikeLiked by 1 person
The Williams Institute at UCLA, which conducts research on transgender people, reported that trans people were four times more likely to be victims of violence–including rape– than cisgender people.
https://search.app/5ytgUDQW1TDsUAPr6
LikeLike
This is likely due to the very high rates at which trans women work, or historically have worked, in the sex industry. (Studies appear to have put this number at between 25% and 75% of trans women. Prostitutes suffer extremely high rates of violent crime.)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10066761/#:~:text=Sex%20work%20(i.e.%2C%20exchange%20of,from%2024%25%20to%2075%25.
LikeLike
To answer Diane’s comment about the UCLA Study, there are some data issues to note. First, as FLERP! explained, in certain cohorts of TIMs (Trans Identified Males) who otherwise might be known as effeminate gay men, prostitution has been a means of survival. I don’t feel comfortable commenting too much on that particular issue, as it is a minority of the men who currently identify as women. Much of the time this particular cohort of men come from homophobic communities where it is unacceptable and “unmanly” for them to be effeminate or gay. When prostitution is a survival strategy, just like for female prostitutes, there is a huge uptick in violence and rape towards these people. I had a former roommate and friend in my 20s who was such a young man and had run away at age 14 from his tribal community. He was a young male prostitute for several years before finding a way back home where he began to build a stronger tribal culture that was more accepting of him as a gay male. He is the one who introduced me to the concept of “two spirit,” which I have studied in depth in many different cultures. In most of the third gender cultures, and two spirit Native American cultures, such a gender role does not supplant biological sex, rather it allows for gender non-conforming and mostly effeminate gay men to have a role within the society. Many other Native American communities have or had no need for a two spirit tradition, as gender expression and same sex attraction may not have been seen as an issue worth attending to. But, this is only scratching the surface. What we do realize is that the current iteration of trans identities has almost nothing to do with two spirit / third gender cultures in which biological realities remain in place.
Another issue with the UCLA study is the very small size of the trans identified victims of violence compared to the much larger cohort of everybody else. In much research like this, trans identification may mean many things, including gay or gender non-conforming, and it may not help us pinpoint who exactly is receiving the violence. I have linked a few more articles on the issue of male criminality patterns in TIMs, and statistics on the crimes committed by the current group of males identifying into women-only prisons. The current stats on TIMs in Women’s prisons (worldwide) have increasingly shown that violent males with no history of trans identification are taking advantage of the new laws that allow for self-id, without any surgical or medical interventions. These men are not effeminate or gay, but often heterosexual and with a history of sexual offenses toward children or women, and possess fully intact penises.
Fair Play for Women: Transgender women criminality shows male pattern | Fair Play For Women
Nearly 45% of MTF transfers to female prisons are there for sex crimes: https://torontosun.com/news/national/study-finds-nearly-45-of-trans-women-inmates-convicted-of-sex-crimes
FBOP (Federal Bureau of Prisons): Almost 50% of trans inmates are there for sex crimes (compared to 11% of the general male population): https://4w.pub/50-of-trans-inmates-in-federal-custody-for-sex-offences/
Scotland: https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/anger-trans-inmates-revert-males-25840252
I would like to highlight the following article that came out today for your readers that are interested in the prison issues. It details the fight of one woman, Rhonda Fleming, in the Federal Bureau of Prisons who appears to be getting unfair treatment, frequent moves, and harassment for filing complaints about the men that she is forced to shower with and bunk with. As someone who had a gay autistic brother in prison for 10 years and was very afraid for him, I pay very close attention to the prison issues. The mainstream media has not picked up the stories of the outcomes of what is happening since the laws changed – under Obama, continuing under Trump and Biden – but we should all be paying attention. At some point, the incidents will be too numerous and egregious to ignore.
America’s Most Unflappable Women’s Rights Activist is Imprisoned with Men.
Getting back to the bathroom issue itself, Lisa Selin Davis has written a very sensible and balanced essay published this morning. She says that the Nancy Mace bathroom rule offers us an opportunity to rethink how we are responding to the current cultural divide. She opines that acceptance needs to come from men themselves, (as they do in two-spirit and third gender societies): “The longer-term solution, I believe, does involve acceptance. It involves men accepting trans women not as variations of women, but as variations of men. Trans women need to be able to use men’s bathrooms without fear of violence or retribution, without being bullied by gender-normative men. Fellas, you need to open the stall door and let trans women in. You can no longer file accommodating them under women’s work.” I agree with this sentiment, which is why I and my feminist/lesbian/bisexual community say yes! to sharing bathrooms with trans men (they are women!) and welcoming them into female only spaces. This is my answer to the original question posed by the blog post.
I write these comments in order to elucidate the concerns that I and many others on the left, particularly in gay, bisexual, and feminist spaces, around the new cultural shifts in norms, laws, and medicalization of children and young people, as well as the silencing of dissident and rational voices on the left. We must begin to grapple with the fact of violations occurring in women’s prisons, and we must attend to the multitude of concerns that women and many communities have about mixed sex bathrooms. These are not left-right political issues, but should be issues for all of us, regardless of exposure in real life to such incidents.
LikeLike
Do you believe that trans women (male at birth) should be placed in men’s prisons? If they are, what happens to them? Given the violence in prisons, aren’t they likely to be repeatedly raped?
Where should they be housed?
LikeLike
As a sister of a man who was in prison for nearly 10 years, I can attest to the fact that prison conditions are brutal, even in the better managed federal system. My brother was gay, autistic, and not up to the task of figuring out the social dynamics to stay safe. He got harassed by both inmates and guards. He did find friends, religious affiliation with the Zen Buddhists, solidarity with Native Americans, and with others that were “misfits” in the system. I supported him with money, research, books, bi-yearly visits across the country, and love. I worried about him desperately for ten years and even after he got out so that he could make a positive transition into civilian life, with a felony on his record and years of parole.
Today, men are desperate for better living conditions, of course they are. But, why, particularly, do trans identifying males, including those who have been heterosexual men and pedophilic men, committed heinous violent crimes and rape, suddenly get to announce that they are women, without so much as a drop of estrogen or surgeries? What about all of the men who are victims of violence and brutality in the prisons? Gay effeminate men, disabled men, weak men, autistic men? They do not get extra protection and they are not moving to women’s prisons. Women’s prisons are not a sanctuary for any man, no matter how he identifies. Men’s prisons must have alternative spaces; many times they do, for men who are in more danger than others. In the article I sent about Rhonda Fleming, there is a summary of how the Federal Bureau of Prisons adopted changes to allow men into women’s prisons, instead of third alternative and trans only spaces. Trans only spaces is the wiser and statistically safer choice.
In California, due to Scott Wiener’s law SB132, hundreds of men have suddenly become “women” since 2020 and are housed in the same cells with women- women who are some of the most vulnerable people in our society, over 90% of whom have been victims of male violence themselves, many of whom are traumatized to be in cells with large men who get erect penises in front of them. Where are the people standing up for their rights? After years of donating to the ACLU, I had to stop. The ACLU is defending this indefensible law and not the rights of women to be free of harassment and male violence. The UN specifically calls for segregated spaces for men and women. We must heed the United Nations and common sense. This is unfettered patriarchy, prioritizing men’s rights over women’s safety.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Unless maestramalinche is also advocating to ban men from all teaching and medical positions, I assume that their claim that they are worried about the supposedly very high likelihood of a male person raping a female is simply their way of garnering hate for trans people, and NOT men.
I doubt maestramalinche is also advocating for the people she suggests are likely rapist men to be banned from coaching any women’s sports “to protect women”.
When you look closely at these folks who claim they don’t hate trans women, they just hate all men because men are likely rapists, you will find that they frequently put their own families in “grave danger” of being raped because their pretense of being terrified that every person with a penis is a likely rapist is just a talking point to disguise their own extreme hate.
LikeLike
“I urge people to listen to women in prison who have been raped and harassed by male prisoners”
I suspected this was the same troll who was lying about trans women raping female prisoners. A lie which has been debunked, so unfortunately there are no “women in prison” to listen to.
There have been many women raped by male prison guards, but these “protector of women” don’t care about that. And these anti-trans groups have hurt many women by their lies.
LikeLike
NYC, you said that you were going to assume that the person bashing transgender individuals had a mental illness and that was why they were anti-trans.
Not fair to those of us that have mental illness and yet are supporters.
LikeLike
“Stop projecting your own fetishes onto trans women.”
This is a breathtakingly rude and clueless comment. If it were my blog, I would ban you for it.
LikeLike
TOW,
Sigh….ok whatever. Seems like you have a bone to pick and it’s not enough for me to say that I readily agree with you that having a mental illness does not make someone anti-trans. Just like I readily acknowledge that having a mental illness also doesn’t make a person shoot an assault weapon at kids. You seem to think I am saying something insulting about people with mental illnesses that I am not, so whatever it is you think I am saying, I apologize for it.
I have seen some truly over the top anti-trans posts on here – posts that obsessively and weirdly focus on genitals and extreme dangers from rapist trans women, and sometimes those posters proclaim that it is trans people who suffer from serious mental illnesses. Or, as this person describes it “fetishes”.
I am surprised at how many people here remain silent when they see that type of hateful anti-trans rhetoric posted here. But good they don’t remain silent when they believe people with mental illnesses are being insulted by critics of those anti-trans posters. That’s totally fair, which is why I am happy to concede your point.
LikeLike
Bob,
I am glad you are well again, even if your feeling better means you once again direct your extreme dislike at me.
I was responding to an anti-trans comment that apparently did not bother you:
“While not all trans identifying males are fetishistic, there are many who are….. Indeed, there are plenty of males who fetishize being in women only spaces”. A comment about how anti-trans policy is a “safety” issue for women.
Due to your recovery, I am not going to get into it with you.
You want me banned and not the people who offer up anti-trans lies about prison rapes, fetishistic trans women in women’s bathrooms, and how it just isn’t “safe” to have a trans woman to use the women’s room – they belong in the men’s room with the other potential rapists.
Got it, Bob. Diane Ravitch, if you want to ban me as Bob expects you to do, that’s your right, as this is your blog.
,
LikeLike
NYCPSP,
You are not banned.
LikeLike
“women need privacy and separation from males in order to feel safe in vulnerable moments and states of undress or during her menstrual cycle.”
during her menstrual cycle?
What is wrong with you?
LikeLike
Thank you for your comment. It’s great when a thoughtful, well considered reply that doesn’t align with the general orthodoxy of a particular thread appears. Let’s a bit of fresh air in and helps people to “disembubble”.
We desperately need to engage with civil, thoughtful, intelligent people of good faith who don’t agree with us on contentious topics. That’s how we move forward….effectively.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I never would have guessed that photo is of a trans man. Some people even go as far as attacking someone they perceive to be transgender even when the individual isn’t. Today’s restroom issue is analogous to racially segregated water fountains from the past.
LikeLike
There was a whole thing last night ear in Utah where parents decided that a female cis athlete was transgender and demanded an investigation. The second link is when a member of the Utah state board of education implied a different cis girl was transgender. These panica are already hurting transgender individuals, and women and girls.
https://www.deseret.com/utah/2022/8/17/23310668/school-investigates-female-athlete-transgender-complaint/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/02/15/us/utah-natalie-cline-censure-student-gender
LikeLike
year, not night. Stupid autocorrect.
LikeLike
That’s so sad. This “investigation” caused serious harm to that child. And it’s adults acting worse than Jr. High kids to come up with such ridiculous accusations based on a child not fitting some stereotype or whatever they picture in their own warped immature “adult” minds. They really ought to be ashamed of themselves. Thanks for sharing these links.
LikeLike
Respectfully disagree. #1) there is no quality scientific evidence supporting the objective existence of gender identities, and yet girls and women must now admit males who simply feel female…inside…into their female single sex spaces that were created to protect them when they are vulnerable to male-on-female sexual harassment, assault, and rape (vulnerable as in relieving themselves, partially or fully naked, changing clothes, showering, sleeping, recuperating, or seeking accommodation following male domestic violence).
And, regarding the segregation of the past…that was based on race, which is primarily a social construct. Whereas, the very reasonable and classic separation of spaces based on sex when girls and women are vulnerable is based on objective reality and biology. Two very different things.
LikeLike
Curious, I asked Google how many Transgender men and women there were. Here’s the answer:
Worldwide, the ratio of transgender women to transgender men is estimated to be 1 in 30,000 for women and 1 in 100,000 for men. However, the methodology used to record these numbers can limit the accuracy of the ratios.
Then, still curious, I asked a few more questions. Actually, I’m always curious.
“Alexander the Great’s sexuality is a controversial topic, but there is evidence that he had relationships with both men and women, and some historians believe he was bisexual.” Is it possible that he was also transgender but had to hide how he felt?
Transgender people have existed for centuries, and have been documented in many cultures around the world:
The modern terms “transgender,” “gender,” “gender identity,” and “gender role” only emerged in the 1950s and 1960s. Transgender people are often underrepresented in history, in part because of how history is recorded and who records it
Here’s a question for readers:
Have you read Middlesex, a Novel by Jeffrey Eugenides? I have. I don’t remember every book I’ve read since what I’ve read numbers in the thousands, but this is one of the few I will never forget. I think it was that good.
Then there is the Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le Guin. I read that novel soon after it came out in 1969.
“Ursula K. Le Guin’s groundbreaking work of science fiction—winner of the Hugo and Nebula Awards.
“A lone human ambassador is sent to the icebound planet of Winter, a world without sexual prejudice, where the inhabitants’ gender is fluid. His goal is to facilitate Winter’s inclusion in a growing intergalactic civilization. But to do so he must bridge the gulf between his own views and those of the strange, intriguing culture he encounters…
“Embracing the aspects of psychology, society, and human emotion on an alien world, The Left Hand of Darkness stands as a landmark achievement in the annals of intellectual science fiction.”
If you haven’t read this book, I HIGHLY recommend it.
LikeLike
Good point, Lloyd. You put the issue into perspective. People should just try to be more tolerant, less judgmental and try not to presume threats like the right wing snowflakes.
LikeLike
Smacko!
LikeLike
Smacko! Love this whole discourse and the boost what’s-her-name has given the reality of gender fluidity. Couldn’t have paid for more thorough press. Keep it live!
LikeLike
The more we react to their outrageous talking points, it seems the more traction it gets.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Yeah, when they start saying Haitian immigrants are kidnapping and eating their neighbors cats and dogs, and use that to foment hate against Haitians, we should have remained silent because Haitian immigrants would have really appreciated how kind it was that we “help” them by allowing people to spread lies to foment violence against them.
Unfortunately, your attitude is not unusual. We live in Orwellian times where the fact that so many people believes lies is attributed to people’s efforts to correct the lies and discredit and marginalize the liars (barely acknowledged in the mainstream media), and has nothing to do with the fact that a Republican can spew the most outrageous lies and even the liberal media presents these outrageous liars as normal and respectable folks who must have a voice because so many people like and believe their lies.
I believe that for too long people just let the anti-public school folks get away with their outrageous lies about teachers and too many people believed it was true because it wasn’t as if anyone was telling them differently. Most notably, polls showed people may not have believed the lies about their own public schools, but they were certain that the “other” public schools and other teachers in different areas were just as horrible as they were hearing about in the media they consumed.
LikeLike
You have no idea about my attitude. My comment was an observation of what seems to be happening. I have been writing about anti-public school forces for years. Perhaps you should do a little research before to attack me or anyone else.
Responding to misinformation meant to drive an objective should be surgical, but when it turns into something that is repeated over and over the response become welcomed by the liar. It gives them traction.
That is one way Trump won. Every time he said something outrageous he got wall to wall coverage. The Haitian community was attacked even more when the lies were repeated a zillion times during the so called media coverage.
As far as education is concerned, lies about public schools gets more traction than real data that disproves the lies. The problem is, most people get glasssy eyed when you try to go over the real data. The lie feeds into the visceral feelings of the uninformed and falsely validates their distrust.
Back to my original comment, why do you think they keep repeating the same crap over and over? Lies become truths when they are repeated over and over.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I already assumed you were opposed to the anti-public school forces. That’s why I cited it as an example.
“why do you think they keep repeating the same crap over and over? Lies become truths when they are repeated over and over.”
Correct. That’s how the right wing got people to distrust teachers’ unions and support privatizing public schools.
“As far as education is concerned, lies about public schools gets more traction than real data that disproves the lies. The problem is, most people get glasssy eyed when you try to go over the real data. The lie feeds into the visceral feelings of the uninformed and falsely validates their distrust.”
Correct, yet you haven’t explained how to counter the lies.
My point is that there is no reason for those lies to even be believed except that the liberal media amplifies right wing lies instead of discrediting those who lie.
Until the media stops amplifying the lie, but instead amplifies the fact that no one should trust the people who lie about so many things, the Republicans will continue to lie with impunity. About public schools and trans women and anything else that allows fascism to take hold.
“why do you think they keep repeating the same crap over and over?”
Because they CAN. Because if you are a Republican, you can repeat a dozen lies over and over again and still be invited onto a Sunday Talk Show or quoted in the NYT. Because it doesn’t matter how many times a Republican lies, the so-called liberal media treats that person as someone that voters should listen to. Whereas anyone who challenges the lie is presented as a “partisan Dem who hates Republicans”, and thus untrustworthy.
I always wonder what it would take for a Republican like JD Vance or Mitch McConnell or Lindsay Graham to lose any credibility with NYT reporters. Clearly they know they can lie about anything and the liberal media will amplify their lie and present those challenging it as partisans.
LikeLike
Not to overgeneralize, but for most trans people, assuming the gender expression of their identified gender is very important. Trans women usually very much want to look like societal expectations for women; trans men usually very much want to look like societal expectations for men. Therefore, it is often very difficult to tell that a trans person is actually trans.
The people who get hurt most by this bathroom nonsense are actually cisgender women who look “butch” otherwise somehow “masculine” but who nonetheless still identify as women. Women like Castor Semenya or Imane Khelif, for instance. Women who were identified female at birth and have always identified themselves as female but who do not meet society’s standards for femininity. Women who, by the so-called “biological woman” standard, belong in the women’s bathroom.
Many women are surprised to find themselves falling into this category later in life, for example, women who have had mastectomies without reconstructive surgery or women who have had voice changes due to smoking, surgery, etc. So since it’s possible that any woman could find herself in this situation, maybe women should stop policing other women in the ladies’ room. After all, it’s not like men need a bathroom to rape women.
LikeLike
They are Not asking the right question. If a person has had reconstructive surgery, then they function biologically as their chosen gender. Restrooms have stalls with doors.
LikeLike
It is interesting that my post was about trans men, but almost of these responses are about trans women. Why do people think there is this asymmetry of interest?
LikeLike
TE,
One commenter wrote that trans women are raping real women in prison and other places. Some trans women have had their penises surgically removed, which makes rape impossible. I don’t know if there are valid data for the incidence of prison rapes by trans women. Do you know?
LikeLike
Diane, I posted this link to a in-depth KQED report the debunks all the lies about transgender rapes in California prisons.
It turns out that the examples that some well-funded anti-trans hate groups intentionally put into their court filings did not stand up to any scrutiny.
But that did not stop those lies from being in right wing news stories and cited here by anti-trans trolls, lies that convinced many people that there was a huge incidence of trans women raping women in prisons.
https://www.kqed.org/news/11964027/california-prisons-fail-to-uphold-transgender-rights-despite-state-law
LikeLike
When everyone is finished Going Potty. Maybe take a look at 11/25 WAPO story on USA voter opposition building AGAINST Vouchers. Good “Stop The Voucher Scam Tennessee” protest photo.
“Everything is increasingly blue vs. red. But not education policy . It’s a rare area with surprising bipartisan coalitions that might continue. Voters have unified — against the desires of powerful conservative groups and Republican politicians.
Strong backlash against Moms for Liberty and other conservative groups seeking to ban books on racial and LGBTQ+ issues from public schools. Meanwhile, counties throughout Florida voted to increase local property and sales taxes to boost public school funding.”
LikeLike
In NYT Magazine about Luzerne County, PA (previously Biden country). A biker rally was gathered after the election. At a local diner..
At a local diner, a visitor (Biden voter) confronted a table of bikers: “Congratulations, guys. I hope it all works out.” His tone doubtful.
A U.S. Army veteran who had arrived on his motorcycle, stood up to respond. “We changed the world!” he said. “I don’t have to worry about my stepdaughter having a boy in the locker room.”
I am amazed by the number of interviews (NPR) and quotes from “Why did you vote for…” – amidst wars, the economy, and the imminent overthrow of the government stated their vote was defended by “It’s about transgender people and BATHROOMS AND LOCKER ROOMS.”
LikeLike
The nature of the activist argument in favor of allowing trans women to be treated as women—“trans women are women”—is so Orwellian and self-evidently incorrect that it makes the trans issue extremely powerful for Republicans. What more could Republicans dream of than Democrats being afraid to say something as common sense as “trans women are actually not women”?
LikeLike
https://www.boston25news.com/news/local/judge-allows-transgender-new-hampshire-girl-play-soccer-lawsuit-challenges-new-law/F2DIZ7NTZNG65CHINMFCV4EACY/
I don’t understand how people can look at these two lovely girls and try to present them as so dangerous to women they need to use men’s rooms only.
People are scared of a fake stereotype. Not the real people living their life as transgender.
LikeLike
Are trans women women?
LikeLike
Should those girls be forced to use men’s bathrooms because as potential rapists they are a danger to women?
Must Patricio Manuel be called a “woman” and by no other term but “woman”? What is the big deal with referring to him as a trans man or man?
Not sure why you have a problem with trans women and cis gender women both being called “women”, and why you would object to Patricio Manuel being called a trans man or man.
But if your point is that only someone who are deemed to be properly a “woman” may use the women’s room, then I wonder who decides.
And I wonder why this didn’t become an issue in 2016, despite Ted Cruz making all of the same arguments warning about the dangers to women and his daughters. Those dangers never materialized, but the propaganda about the dangers did.
LikeLike
I think this has illustrated my point very well. You can argue the fine points of bathroom policy all day long, but if you think it’s too risky–even anonymously on the internet– to say that of course trans women are not actually women, you cannot win politically. You will always sound like a buffoon to most people.
I’m happy to refer to this person as a “he” as a matter of courtesy and convention. But I don’t believe this is actually a man. He is a woman on testosterone. You can only imagine how freeing it is to be able to write those mundane sentences.
LikeLike
Conservative Trump supporter Caitlyn Jenner, on twitter: “Is there really a need to announce your pronouns? I don’t see it as productive or something that needs to be announced, let alone insisted nor enforced on someone. At the same time, I don’t see a gain in intentionally bullying someone by misgendering – not mutually exclusive”
But Caitlyn, what if intentionally misgendering someone is “freeing”? Shouldn’t that be allowed?
What if it is “freeing” to write that those two young girls are “boys”? What if it is “freeing” to force those two out of women’s bathrooms and into the male bathrooms where they belong?
I truly cannot see why all those years of Caitlyn Jenner using she pronouns made anyone feel so constrained, but I feel how much pain those people who know a man is a man must have been experiencing. The same pain that Kentucky clerk Kim Davis experienced at the thought of having to recognize single sex marriage.
It wasn’t so long ago that people were expressing similar outrage at the idea that two women or two men could possibly be “married”. How dare they use the word “married” to refer to two people of the same sex, and when the SC repeals that decision, I have no doubt these folks will note how “freeing” it is that they can now express their disgust that two people of the same gender could ever be “married.”
I remember some cowardly Democrats (including Obama) being far too scared to challenge that “truth”, and other cowardly Dems citing “polls” to counsel that Dems remain quiet and never speak out as the right wing Republicans demonized gay Americans for wanting to be married. Some of those anti-gay marriage folks no doubt agreed with Kim Davis that it was “freeing” to be able to call gay couples “unmarried” because those horrible libs who only cared about “identity politics” need to be put in their proper place – silenced and marginalized.
No worries, flerp!, I am sure Republicans will silence those who interfere with your own “freedom” to misgender people even when they have asked you politely to use a different gender. Caitlyn Jenner is wrong about that being bullying – it is the American way! As Trump has shown, the freedom to bully and harm vulnerable people for political gain is sacrosanct among Trump voters. And for those complicit with the bullying who blame “identity politics” and are happy they don’t have to suffer the lack of “freedom” to call people whatever they want.
Rush Limbaugh was outraged his “freedom” to call the little ladies Miss or Mrs. was being infringed by those fem-nazis fighting to have people use Ms.
Today, “good people” advocate throwing trans people under the bus for political gain. Who is next?
LikeLike
You are literally, constitutionally unable to say whether a trans woman is a woman. That’s arguably quite damning among the activists—it could be taken as a sign you don’t actually believe trans women are women. Better play it safe and repeat the slogan so it’s clear you’re on the right side of history.
On a more serious note, I know you go crazy not being able to respond to my comments, but if you could abide by the host’s request that we not interact with each other, that would be just fantastic.
LikeLike
flerp!,
Why is it you think it is okay to respond to my comments in threads where you previously were not involved, but then cite Diane’s rule if I respond to you elsewhere?
I am not so petty as to cite Diane’s “rule” when you respond to one of my comments, perhaps because I respect your freedom of speech more than you respect mine. When you respond with a different opinion to one of my comments, I don’t tell you that you aren’t obeying Diane’s rule.
Why are you being so petty?
I linked to an article about two young trans women instead of engaging with you so people could see who these “men” (as you call them) actually are. You could have ignored my link, just like I ignored when you respond far above to something I posted. Instead you asked me a question. Are you now upset because I replied to your question?
I acknowledge I knew it was a risk to just post a link, even though I also could see that when it suits you, you respond to my comments. But I can’t imagine being so petty as to ask you a direct question when you have chosen to respond to a comment, and then chide you for responding to my direct question.
I know you feel very strongly that we shouldn’t engage, so I assume you won’t respond with a short, insulting reply.
I apologize for replying when you asked me a direct question: “Are trans women women?” I was wrong to reply to your direct question, and I understand if you choose to join Bob and demand I be banned.
LikeLike
NYCPSP,
You are not banned. Please do not engage with FLERP. Ignore his comments. Don’t read them. Write what you want without any reference to him.
LikeLike
FLERP!
November 24, 2024 at 3:08 pm
Thumbs up from a fellow sufferer of mental illness.
LikeLike
And, in Missouri,
The more interesting question would be why – in 2016 – when Ted Cruz tried to make the exact same argument to get Republican primary votes against Trump, there weren’t hoards of conservative Republican voters who wanted to protect their stepdaughters’ bathrooms and locker rooms. Back in 2016, the Democrats, along with a couple Republicans like Donald Trump, opposed the NC bathroom ban, and Ted Cruz tried to use it to scare primary voters, but it didn’t work.
In 2016, where were all the complicit Dems, Republicans and NYT reporters amplifying the right wing’s “blame the victim” message and writing 500 stories amplifying Ted Cruz’ anti-trans message about the dangers of trans women? Where was the daily bombardment of Ted Cruz’ anti-trans message in the liberal and right wing media, focusing exclusively on the “regular people” who were very worried about the safety of their daughters and wives and sisters if pro-trans Trump was the Republican nominee for president instead of Ted Cruz in 2016?
Instead, in 2016 Americans were bombarded with the message that this was a non-issue. North Carolina even repealed most of its anti-trans bill the next year.
It is quite dangerous to blame the victims of the far right demonization machine for the fact that people believe the lies about them, but one of the reasons the right wing has had so much success is because so many people who present themselves as “neutral” who supposed don’t like the Republicans, act in ways that legitimize and amplify the dishonest hate-filled right wing propaganda.
I have no doubt that the NYT could find voters in Ohio who voted for Trump to protect their families against pet-eating Haitian immigrants. If the Republicans said in unison and used their powerful media control to amplify the message that Jews were the cause of everything bad in the country, the complicit liberal media would no doubt write 100 or 1,000 articles interviewing “regular” voters who said they supported Trump to protect their families from Jews. And you’d see articles like that about Jews that essentially legitimize and amplify the scapegoating.
Because the Republicans with their complicit liberal media “helpers” didn’t choose to amplify the “trans people in bathrooms is a huge problem” message, this wasn’t a powerful campaign issue in 2016. The anti-trans candidate couldn’t even win a Republican primary.
Remember when the NYT and the rest of the so-called liberal media turned “Critical Race Theory being taught to our children!” into an issue. There as a very similar flood of articles where “regular people” expressed their fear of CRT as a reason for their votes.
Guess who doesn’t care about the dangers of CRT anymore? If some people still make their fear of CRT their main voting issue, they are invisible and their voices aren’t amplified. Their views are no longer important because Republicans aren’t pushing that narrative anymore.
It’s all well and good to blame the victim for the hate and fear that the right wing narrative creates as some people even here do. It’s all well and good until that hate machine convinces people that your particular group is dangerous (not all of them, just “very many” of them) and “polls show” that people believe Catholics are dangerous or Italians are dangerous or union teachers are dangerous.
I get that some people here think that the right thing to do is to stop defending trans people from right wing lies to win elections. Or maybe they just don’t want to admit to their own anti-trans biases.
There were also some Dems who advocating throwing teachers unions under the bus when the Republicans made demonizing teachers a political issue. Some Dems who said Dems need to shut up and stop supporting gay marriage.
There are always Dems advocating appeasement. If only we join the Republicans and foment more hate, they will be appeased. They never are. They just find a new scapegoat. Some people believe it will never be them.
LikeLike
And, in Missouri,
I assume we are ALL surprised that so many people believed that the 2020 election was stolen from Trump with serious voter fraud issues.
Since when does the fact that voters believe lies mean that those lies have more validity?
In our Orwellian new reality, apparently even “very good” people lecture Dems to shut up and stop defending the truth, so voters will like them more.
LikeLike
I imagine that most of the women’s restrooms on The Hill…and, especially those serving congresswonen, are going to be filled with middle to upper class folk on their very best behavior – it IS the Capital after all…full of security. But, Rep. Nancy Mace was not, undoubtedly, primarily acting on behalf of her fellow congress women or even female federal employees…she was acting on behalf of American school girls experiencing their very first menses, forced to share a communal toilet room with rambunctious boys in restrooms recently converted to unisex toilets or a girls’ restroom where boys confused about their sex are now able to access. Or, poor to lower class American women who now, due to trans orthodoxy, have to access grimy, poor lit “all gender” toilets outside the greyhound bus station. Or young American female athletes forced to share gym communal toilets, locker rooms, showers with male athletes who “feel” like they’re girls or women…inside. Or, American girls of conservative Christian, Orthodox Jewish, or Muslim faith who are no longer permitted to access public restrooms because their communities do not tolerate random, strange males entering public spaces where females are partially naked (even if a flimsy cubicle door separates them). Or American human females with a past history of male sexual assault who are triggered by the presence of a male-bodied person in isolated female single sex spaces. Or, American women who understand that male inmates who trans identify as women in prison are much more likely to have committed sexual crimes against women and children than other male inmates.
You see, it’s not just Rep. Nancy Mace targeting trans-identifying male Rep. Sarah McBride. It’s about ALL American women (human females) experiencing privacy, dignity, safety, and bodily autonomy when they’re vulnerable.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Women are a unique demographic making up more than 50% of the population and responsible for gestating all life in utero. Members of this demographic, like members of other human demographics, are entitled to come together and decide wherein lie their concerns and their best interests…and, sometimes those interests and concerns clash with the interests and concerns of others. They do not have to be tolerant of actions they perceive to threaten the best interests of their own demographic. And, to suggest that they must be tolerant or kind in this circumstance is misogynistic.
LikeLiked by 1 person