Reports at the hearings in a federal appeals court suggest that the three judges seemed skeptical of Trump’s claim that he is immune from prosecution for any action taken while he was president, unlesss he was impeached and convicted for that offense.
Three federal appeals court judges expressed deep skepticism on Tuesday about former President Donald J. Trump’s central defense to an indictment accusing him of plotting to overturn the 2020 election: that he is immune to the charges because they arose from actions he took as president.
All of the judges on the three-member panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit — composed of two Democratic appointees and one Republican appointee — peppered a lawyer for Mr. Trump with tough questions about arguments he raised to support the immunity claims.
While the three judges also pressed James I. Pearce — a lawyer representing the special counsel, Jack Smith — their queries to him were not quite as aggressive. The panel adjourned the hearing after about an hour and 15 minutes and reserved judgment for another day.
The case is expected to eventually reach the Supreme Court. Its pace and outcome will be central in deciding when — or even whether — Mr. Trump will go to trial in the election interference case, which is unfolding in Federal District Court in Washington. It could also go a long way in determining the timing of the three other criminal trials that Mr. Trump is facing in the months ahead.
In one tough moment for Mr. Trump, who was present for the hearing but did not speak, Judge Karen L. Henderson, the sole Republican appointee on the panel, pushed back on an argument made by his lawyer, D. John Sauer, that for more than 200 years, American courts had never sat in judgment over official actions that a president had taken while in office.
Judge Henderson pointed out that until Mr. Trump was indicted, courts had never had to consider the criminal liability of former presidents for things they did in the White House.
Judge Henderson also seemed less than persuaded by Mr. Sauer’s argument that Mr. Trump was acting in his role as president and upholding his constitutional duty to preserve the integrity of the election when he sought to overturn his loss to President Biden.
“I think it’s paradoxical to say that his constitutional duty to ‘take care that the laws be faithfully executed’ allows him to violate criminal law,” Judge Henderson said.
At one point, Judge Florence I. Pan presented Mr. Sauer with an hypothetical situation, asking if a president could be criminally charged for ordering SEAL Team 6 — an elite commando unit — to assassinate a political rival. Mr. Sauer said that a prosecution would be possible in that situation only if the president had first been found guilty in an impeachment proceeding.
When Mr. Pearce addressed the court on behalf of the special counsel’s office, he seized on Judge Pan’s example. Mr. Pearce said it was a terrifying prospect that a president could use the military to murder a rival and then escape criminal liability by simply resigning before he could be impeached.
Mr. Pearce fended off a question by the judges asking if a ruling denying Mr. Trump immunity would trigger a flood of partisan charges against future presidents by arguing that Mr. Trump was a unique case as the only president in U.S. history to have ever been charged with a crime.
Because no former president has ever been prosecuted before, there are few definitive precedents to guide the appellate judges in deciding the question of immunity. While the Justice Department has long maintained a policy that sitting presidents cannot be indicted, Mr. Trump’s bid to claim total immunity from prosecution is a remarkable attempt to claim the protections of the presidency even though he is no longer in office.

Few things are more painful to watch than an attorney making arguments he/she knows are utter nonsense. And Trump’s positions are truly laughable.
I hope Trump’s check cleared or, even better, that his appellate attorneys got paid via wire transfer or other process.
Does Zelle work for multimillion dollar deposits?
I’m guessing not.
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I read a piece about how lawyers learned from other lawyers, who got burned by Trump, that, unless they were not to bright, they refused to work for Trump as a lawyer until he pays up front. Often walking away thinking that was probably all they’d get, so the fees Trump paid upfront were usually much higher what lawyers charge most clients for retainters.
The piece I read also said Trump doesn’t let lawyers record their meetings or take notes. Then when lawyers lose a case where they did what Trump told, and Trump refuses to pay them, he lies and says they didn’t do what I wanted them to do and the lawyers were incompetent.
People that have worked for Trump in management have said in interviews that Trump is a micromanager. No one that works for him does anything on their own. They must have his approval first.
The lawyers being interviews in the piece I read, said that was why they never met with Trump alone. And after the meetings, once they were out of Trump’s sight, the lawyers found a place to sit and write notes covering what was said in the meeting, and verified each other to make sure their notes were as accurate as possible to match what they remembered Trump told them he wanted them to do in court.
Thousands of court cases over decades.
https://www.usatoday.com/pages/interactives/trump-lawsuits/
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There is no way an attorney should agree to such conditions. For a myriad of reasons, not the least that without a written record based on CONTEMPORANEOUS notes, this liar will make whatever accusations he feels like when it comes time to pay.
And speaking of “time to pay”, that has to be up front. In cash. Because he stiffs everybody.
The real problem is that at some point, Trump will insist the attorney do something he/she cannot ethically do. Trump is essentially a gangster. If you want to work for a gangster, with all that implies, then have at it. Just don’t act surprised when the hammer falls. Because it will fall on you alone.
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Extremely well said.
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Read Michael Cohen’s book. He writes about how Trump stiffed subcontractors.
He comes across as a gangster.
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Did anyone see the statement by Trump where he said that if he had been President in 1859-60, there would been no Civil War. He said he (unlike Lincoln) would have negotiated a deal with the South.
Liz Cheney asked what he would have negotiated: slavery? Secession and the end of the Union?
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I don’t trust Michael Cohen, but I do believe what he said early on about Trump being a mob boss. There was video of Cohen pacing around one of NYC’s pocket parks in a gaudy suit before he had to go to court. Cohen looked like a hunted man, truly afraid.
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Read Cohen’s book. He grew up admiring mob bosses. His worship of Trump fit his adulation for the Mafia.
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It’s a New York thing.
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Explains Rudy Colludy, too. His dad was a mobster, as Wayne Barrett uncovered. Because Giuliani knew all the players, he was able to clear out the Italian dons to make room for the Russian ones.
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I didn’t catch that, but it does not surprise me in the least.
https://www.snopes.com/news/2016/06/23/donald-trump-rape-lawsuit/
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Well said, JSR!
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Riddle me, riddle me, riddle me this . . .
Who am I?
I am. . . .
From New York
In the construction/building trades
I. . . .
Launder money for mobsters
Evade taxes
Do lots and lots and lots of big cash deals
Brag constantly about my wealth and my genius
Claim to have the “best” of everything and to be “best” at everything
Keep my tax returns and sources of income secret
Have a violent temper
Have a thing for junk food
Demand loyalty oaths from subordinates, and if they
don’t deliver, get rid of them
Thrive on obsequiousness from those around me
Am constantly paranoid about betrayal
Constantly ridicule others
Constantly make up belittling nicknames and think that this is extraordinarily funny
Gesticulate a lot
Have two expressions: 1. utter rage and 2. smirk
Am casually and profoundly racist
Am extraordinarily narcissistic
Have a comb-over
Wear expensive, dapper suits
Am a serial abuser of women
Mangle the language
Am a blowhard
Cannot utter a sustained, coherent thought
Conduct business out of my “club”
Constantly complain about “fake news”
Am surrounded by and employ dirty lawyers
Am subject to lots of investigations that don’t stick
Brag about how they will never catch up to me
Gotti. John Gotti. And someone else you might know.
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This position would allow Biden to assassinate Trump and then immediately resign.
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Why should he resign? If anything he does as president is okay, just kill the opponent and move on.
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Because if he doesn’t resign there’s a chance he’s impeached and convicted on the articles of impeachment by the Senate—those are the conditions Trump’s attorney said would be necessary before a President who did that could be subject to criminal prosecution.
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And you expect he’d say stick to that position?
He’ll just invent some new hogwash and carry on.
His words have never meant anything.
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It’s a joke.
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You think he would be impeached !
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For assassinating a political rival, I’d say it’s a coin flip.
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Sure, why not. It was for bribing a foreign official and soliciting foreign interference in an election. It was for inciting an insurrection and impeding an official proceeding. Heck,
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flerp!, have you been reading Marcy Wheeler at EmptyWheel? She made that same point today in a headline.
Regardless of this Appellate court decision, the Supreme Court already seems poised to give Biden the green flag to incite a “non”-insurrection and use violent supporters to prevent any winning presidential candidate from taking office so he can remain president indefinitely. So it isn’t all that far a stretch that when this case goes to the Supreme Court, the right wing court would give the president the green light to assassinate someone without real fear of any prosecution, as Trump’s attorney apparently believes they should. Especially an older president who the Supreme Court has also allowed to spend years delaying any trial.
Of course, the far right can argue for this only because they believe Biden has too much integrity and morality to use the power they are waiting for Trump to use to destroy democracy.
Someone else mentioned that the comments on EmptyWheel are often excellent. Here’s one interesting one by someone who identifies as “HikaakiH”
“I know the argument about absolute immunity giving Pres Biden free rein to reign, rather than preside, over the US might bring MAGA enthusiasts to break out in a sweat, but enough of them in their hearts know that Joe isn’t going to do anything as crazy as assassinating GOP candidates. Surely the hypothetical to bring it home to them would be for Pres Biden to step aside (even if temporarily), handing the absolute immunity of presidential authority to VP Kamala Harris. We know that this would absolutely freak them out and why. And while we are dealing in hypotheticals, if a President ‘needs’ some presidential-level criming done and doesn’t think an auto-pardon would work, what is to stop them handing the baton of authority to their VP to get the criminal work done, then re-assuming office and handing off an unassailable pardon to the VP? Both would still be subject to impeachment, but would they have successfully side-stepped judicial accountability?”
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Trump is a CRAZY, UNETHICAL blow-hard who has NO ETHICS whatsoever and says and does outrageous things to not “go to jail.”
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Donnie Trump, Bedlam Boy
Donnie inhabits an alternate reality universe, not the one that sane people live in. The guy really is totally nuts. He is far, far, far from sane. He makes stuff up, and THEN HE ACTUALLY BELIEVES IT. That’s the truly bizarre thing. He might have started life as just another throw-a-stick at the underbellies of New York and Jersey con man, but he has morphed into this bizarre caricature, like something out of a comic book–the Penguin or the Joker from the Batman franchise, for example. He literally believes his own bullshit, and that’s because he is stark, raving mad.
And because he is profoundly ignorant and profoundly stupid, he overhears stuff–like some debate over presidential powers or that China would be hurt by tariffs or that Greenland has strategic significance or that some airplanes are almost invisible to radar–and he gets it all wrong and twisted around in his tiny little brain. He starts asserting that a president can do anything he wants to do with absolute immunity and that China has had to pay us billions in tariffs because of him or that Denmark should sell Iceland to us and that some airplanes are actually invisible. He hired a ghostwriter to cook up The Art of the Deal, and thereafter he concluded that he could make any deal with anyone about anything, that he could get Mexico to pay for the wall or create and pass in a week a healthcare plan better than Obamacare or end the Russian invasion of Ukraine in a day or that he is the fucking Messiah. And gosh, if he had only been in the White House instead of that slaker Lincoln, he could have negotiated away the Civil War. He thinks it’s just fine to have top secret classified documents sitting around in the bathrooms in his club. He thinks that he is a genius. He talks about dating his freaking daughter. He is, literally, psychotic. A malignant pathological narcissist. He is utterly unfit, on many, many levels, for public office, and this is JUST ONE OF THEM.
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Sixty-two court decisions about election fraud say Trump wasn’t upholding any presidential responsibilities in obstructing the law regarding vote certification. Sixty-two courts held that Donald Trump knows how to lose in court. Sixty-two cases upheld the fact that President Donald J Trump is what he calls nearly everyone else, a loser.
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HAHAHA!!! Deranged Diane read michael cohen the person thrown in jail for lying!!!! Nobody but deranged diane over trump would read it. Very sad, been wrong on it all. Shhhhhhhh on
Biden/Harris, that is absurd.
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Is English a new language for you?
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left coast , why are you afraid of election going to state legislators? How are 2,000 plus mules, bogus drop boxes, mail in voting, counting after midnight, dominion compromised machines, leading by 200,000 at 10pm then all of a sudden drops for biden, you are lost. Grow up, election not lie. All bogus conspiracies become true, being lied to by all media cronies, new york times is not a legit source!
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Need meds? To bad there’s no health care.
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Oh no! Not counting ballots after midnight! Heavens to Betsy! We wouldn’t want legitimately cast votes to count, would we! Whoever Fox News says won at midnight is the winner! Democracy in action!
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Wait, was that midnight Eastern time or Pacific? Wait also, does Hawaii count?
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Oh I forgot, Hawaiians can’t vote. They were born in Kenya.
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If a sitting President has to be impeached and removed before he gets prosecuted for criminal activity , we are totally dependent on the goodness of the Congress to provide a check to executive power. That obviously does not work.
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After George Washington took the oath of office as President of the United States, on the balcony of the newly renovated Federal Building in New York, New York, he retreated to the Senate chamber, then in the same building, to give his Inaugural Address. Congress stood for his entrance but sat for his speech. In England, when the King spoke to Parliament, the legislators remained standing. This was an important piece of symbolism. The new country would be a nation of laws. The president and head of the military would be a citizen. And it would have no king with absolute powers like sovereign immunity. The immunity case thus goes to the very heart of who we are as a nation.
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I don’t understand why Judge Henderson is concerned about opening the floodgates if she finds no immunity for crimes. First, it’s hypothetical and second, how is it relevant? One cannot control what rogue actors will do some time in the future. All Trump’s posturing comes down to this: his threats about stoking violence and what his followers will do if he’s held accountable for anything he’s done. Every teacher knows if you don’t hold students accountable for misbehavior, their behavior escalates. Past time to do so; Trump’s appointees in the judiciary better not blink.
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Every teacher knows if you don’t hold students accountable for misbehavior, their behavior escalates.
Exactly. Look at the price Germany (and the rest of the Europe) paid for giving Hitler a slap on the hand after the Beer Hall Putsch.
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