The mainstream media are filled with warnings about “learning loss” and how we must measure it and why students should go to summer school to make up for what they have “lost.” If we can’t quantify it, they say, how can we know which students are behind? This is silly. There was no “pre-test,” so there can’t be a “post-test.” A test that students take this spring can’t possibly demonstrate “learning loss,” since they can’t be compared to anything else. If you want to know where students are in their learning, ask their teacher.
Here are some good readings on “learning loss.”
Peter Greene gathered some and calls his post a “learning loss debunkery reader.” And don’t miss Peter’s personal tale of his own “learning loss.” It began right after high school graduation, when he realized he had forgotten algebra!
Russ on Reading turned “learning loss” into a Henny Penny fable, in which the wolves are trying to get into the henhouse.
“Wait a minute. Are we sure our children have lost their learning? I know a year away from the schoolhouse is concerning. And I know the online learning is not as good as beak to beak learning, but just what are we worried about here. Our children are learning lots of things. They have learned how to make the best of a bad situation. They have learned how we all need to pitch in to help each other. They have learned to wear masks in public. They have learned a lot about communicable diseases. They may have different learning this year, but is that the same as losing learning? Before we let the foxes into the hen house, we better be sure there is a big problem.”
The Zoom meeting went silent. Goosey Loosey shut down Foxy Loxy’s Zoom feed. She said, “You know maybe we have bigger things to worry about than learning loss. I am going to go read my chicks a book.”

“They have learned how to make the best of a bad situation.”
This is a really stupid take. You go to school to learn things that our brain didn’t evolve to learn, like math, reading, science.
You know, it’s possible to be against overtesting and corporate education agendas without embracing quackery. You seem to have drunk the Kool-aid on every single left-wing idea about education and given up the careful evaluation of ideas.
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But they are learning those things as well!
The people who are saying there is a “learning loss” are the same ones who have said that schools need to “reopen.” Schools have been open this whole time. They were “open” last spring when the pandemic started and they are “open” now.
Teachers are teaching and have been this whole time.
Is it possible that there is a “skills loss”? Sure, but how would we even know that if we aren’t sure what “skills” some of them had before?
We might be better off if schools focused more on teaching “soft skills,” such as “how to make the best of a bad situation.” At least then we would be giving them some sense of resiliency, so that when they do encounter a “bad situation” they know how to bounce back and figure out what to do next.
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True. How often will Algebra save your life like learning to cope with a bad situation will. I gave my students Viktor Frankl’s Man’s Search for Meaning to lessons in Stoicism and hope.
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Our brains did not evolve to learn math, reading, and science? Huh. Not too sure about that. Pretty sure math, reading, and science didn’t exist until our brains evolved to learn them. And I am pretty sure there’s more to neural development than just math, reading, and science, too. That’s what they used to say in all my neurology and cognitive development classes.
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Good response LCT. That was my reaction, too, HUH? G. Esres has some kind of agenda.
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Certainly, Chomsky has demonstrated how we are pre-wired for language.
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Think again. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlYZBi_07vk&t=386s
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Does that evolution include a “use by” date or “do at this place and time” advisory?
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This is beautifully stated, Greg. Thank you. I’m wondering how many people who dismiss ‘learning loss’ work with 45 first and second graders and 24 third graders remotely each week the way I do. How easy it is to dismiss the learning loss of others when those of us who are dismissive don’t have skin in the game. And those who are hurt most by our dismissive attitude are the most vulnerable amongst us. Yes, whatever happened to the ‘careful evaluation of ideas’.
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I think it’s unavoidable there’s “loss” but how do you measure it? Giving exams? Don’t think so. I think that was Diane’s point. There was no pre-test, so how do you measure? It’s silly.
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If there is no learning loss, there is no excuse to take away students’ time for play and family, replacing life with more monetized data-yielding screen time. It’s the industrial complex profits that they care about, as usual. Churlish are those in the learning loss camp.
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LeftCoastTeacher,
YES, YES, YES. When I read or hear about “learning loss” I LAUGH.
It’s obvious that those who cry “learning loss” don’t know that we learn all the time and looking for profits for their lame programs.
BTW, the READ Act is INSANE.
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If there is no learning loss there is also no excuse to take students time away from play and family for traditional school when there is no pandemic.
If there is no cost to students for missing a year of instruction, we are probably requiring too many years of instruction for students. My state requires students to remain in school until they are 16. Would everyone agree that our recent experience suggests that we could drop that to 15?
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I don’t think so. The kids would be missing a year that could possibly make an important difference in their lives. Maybe the counselors and teachers would convince the kid to hang in and not drop out at 16 or 15, to complete his/her high school education and get the diploma.
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Learning loss is the equivalent of being “rusty,” IMHO. As Greene point out learning does not fall out of students’ head. Plop, plop. It simply means that students may be a little out of touch with in-person learning. They simply need to get back into a learning groove. I have seen so many immigrant students make up for lost time. I know it is possible to make up for lost education when a students are ready and able to do it, and teachers know what to do. No standardized tests are necessary!.
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Retired,
Students who will graduate this spring may well not make up for lost time because they have finished their secondary education.
Do you think it would be wise for school systems to require students to attend an extra semester beyond normal high school graduation so that those students can catch up to where they normally would be at high school graduation?
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One must understand what learning is and what education is for.
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No. If they meet the state requirements, they should be allowed to graduate as scheduled. If they meet the number of units required to graduate, they should move forward, IMO. Many students will already have received acceptance to colleges and other institutions of higher learning next year.
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TE, children have learned how to wear masks. This is wonderful!
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It would be far better if there were no pandemic. It would be far better if schools were open full time for instruction. But reality intrudes. The question now is whether we immediately pile on homework and standardized testing or give the kids and teachers time to adjust.
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That is a fair argument, but the insistence on pushing back so hard on the idea of “learning loss” comes off as defensive and looks very bad from the perspective of many parents who have seen what their children have gone through this past year. I mean, it boggles the mind that someone thought it was worth writing that “children have learned how to wear masks.”
It is bad that children have missed this much school. Millions of children have learned less than they would have otherwise. It’s a problem, and no amount of gaslighting will distract from that.
The best thing to do now would be to open schools full-time so children can get back to normal.
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Biden has approved vaccines for all teachers. Schools should reopen as soon as teachers have received the vaccine.
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Some students that lost loved ones will be mourning their loss. They will only be able to learn when their social and emotional needs are met. Getting back to normal will help them through this difficult time, not punitive, time wasting testing.
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Can’t get back to normal unless schools are open.
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Well said, Diane.
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And just how is it that we define this cost to students? And if we could define that cost for each and every student, what does that cost require us to do? Massive standardized testing in which results of any kind take far too long to produce and do nothing to inform classroom practice is not and never has been the answer. Nor is an educational boot camp the answer. It’s not like kids have been unplugged for the past year. They have continued to grow in ways we cannot even attempt to fully assess until we return to some sense of normalcy. Sixth graders are nothing like eighth graders no matter what or how they have been learning.
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Speduktr,
I think the orthodox opinion here was the virtual or online education was vastly inferior to traditional in class education right up to the start of the pandemic. I would point you to the numerous posts on the topic for measures of the cost of having the last year of instruction online. I especially recommend Bob Shepards posts.
How to move forward from here is a separate issue. If online education has been roughly equivalent to traditional in person classes and the claimed inferiority of online instruction is all a hoax, there is nothing that needs to be done and school will continue online or perhaps in person for some in the fall. If online instruction is actually inferior to in person instruction there will be some needed remediation.
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I think it is obvious that in person instruction is preferable to online in most situations and for most students for numerous reasons, both academic and social/emotional. Just ask the kids! That being said, teachers have been doing an incredible job at improving the online instruction over the past year that has been necessitated by the pandemic. From your comments, it appears to me that you believe that education is a rather stagnant commodity that does not and cannot respond well to changes necessitated by circumstances beyond our control. It really speaks volumes that teachers are still resisting a return to in person instruction until the safety of staff is assured with vaccines and the school environment is up to protocol recommended by health professionals. I am sure you would find few teachers who would say that teaching online and/or hybrid has been and is easier than in person, so refusing to return until safety concerns are addressed is not taking the easy way out.
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The graduation requirements are generally determined by the accumulation of credits, not standardized tests in most states. If students meet the graduation requirements by completing their credits, there is no need to say that they need to catch up. High school students that have not met the required number of credits can attend summer school if they need to complete courses in order to meet the graduation requirements.
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Credits are arbitrary. I am suggesting, in the spirit of Russ on Reading, that students will learn lots of things if they are not forced to spend a year attending traditional school. Not the same things they would learn in school, but still valuable learning. We should perhaps cut back on the number of required credits so students can easily graduate with 11 or perhaps 10 years of formal education. No learning would be lost.
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Diane, I love this! Thanks for sharing it.
Kas
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Schools have also been operating under the concept that the “summer slide” is a problem as well. While it is true that some students may not be doing lots of academic work during the summer months, teachers generally can get students back into active learning mode in the first two weeks of school. Again, no standardized test is necessary, just qualified teachers doing their job to assess and plan instruction. Qualified teachers will meet students where they are and take them where they need to go.
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So right! The summer slide is nonsense. Learning does not have a reverse gear. There is such thing as “use it or lose it”, but it’s not really lost if one really learned it. One simply must use it again and the memory will be refreshed.
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Amen, RE!!
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The biggest takeaway from the article is that the “learning loss” idea came from “data” that is entirely made up. This idea that the “science” of learning loss can spring from nothing that’s observable or measureable (as if standardized tests really measured anything to begin with) makes it obvious that there is no science involved, only guesswork and conjecture.
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guesswork, conjecture and greed
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You got it!
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Yes.
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This is exactly what I have been saying and asking. Exactly how are all these reports measuring learning loss? One study I checked out referenced an online reading test that was given to a handful of students and then compared it to what expectations “should be,” not the child’s reading level before the pandemic.
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Oh for God’s sake.
“Our children are learning lots of things. They have learned how to make the best of a bad situation. They have learned how we all need to pitch in to help each other. They have learned to wear masks in public. They have learned a lot about communicable diseases.”
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The benchmarks we create for children aren’t real. We keep saying their behind, but they’re behind imaginary lines drawn by people who push instead of those who work with and value children for all the wonderful things they are. You can’t measure compassion, curiosity, and creativity on a standardized test.
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The benchmarks are created by those that want to undermine public education. The concept of proficiency is subjective, not statistical. Proficiency is an artificial goalpost that can be moved based on the whims of politicians. As such, it is highly suspect.
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In my state the benchmarks for high school graduation are created by the teachers in the required classes all across the state. Of course the concept of passing is subjective, not statistical. Passing a course is an artificial goalpost that can be moved based on the whims of any individual teacher. Does that make it suspect?
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“Passing a course is an artificial goalpost that can be moved based on the whims of any individual teacher. Does that make it suspect?”
Depends on whether you consider teachers to be highly trained professionals or not.”
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During the pandemic, parents should require their children to read real books printed on paper. Why not earn time to text and stare at a computer screen. For every hour of reading a real book, children earn a half-hour of texting/screen time.
Instead of an alleged loss, those children would return to brick-and-mortar schools after the pandemic has run its course with a dramatic gain in reading scores.
Literacy and a love of reading is the KEY to lifelong learning — not test scores.
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All I can say is, “Thank you.” I have been arguing, “Learning loss of what?” When I started my distance learning, I told the kids, “Wow, now we have the freedom to learn!” I was immediately told the children were only to do the work that was given by all three middle schools. “In order to be fair, we must all do exactly the same work.” I had numerous fun art assignments, deeper understanding of key concepts, books to read on your own that you like and what not. One student of mine asked me, “Can I read a book I want even though it isn’t part of my AR Reading Level?” I told her, “Read the book you want to. It might be hard, but that’s how you learn. And remember, if you don’t know a word, look it up like we learning in class.” But the true question is, “What does it mean to be educated?” My mother-in-law finished high school, but despite all of our college degrees, no one could beat her at Scramble. I found this essay by a student. Enjoy. https://medium.com/fhsaplang/what-does-it-mean-to-be-truly-educated-a37d41a6657d
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” My mother-in-law finished high school, but despite all of our college degrees, no one could beat her at Scramble.”
Boy, do I relate to that! Scrabble and the NYT Sunday crossword.
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This post (and the one before it) and the comments really sum up why I find this blog so invigorating and, at times, incredibly frustrating. All but four of the commentators above have interesting and insightful opinions. I nominate “guesswork, conjecture and greed” as the most succinct and accurate description of the standardized test-and-punish grift I have yet read. It is not about education; it is about a profiteering business model that cares nothing about the damage left in its wake. The hysterical comments that cling to the myth and lies of “learning loss,” that we should lower compulsory ages for school, and the consistent selfish bemoaning culminating in a charge of “gaslighting,” are truly to quote one of them, “idiocy.”
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Hello Diane and everyone,
First of all, it’s a very childish notion that we will “go back to normal.” Our lives will never be like they were pre-pandemic. All life is suffering and all life is change. Perhaps that’s the best lesson for kids out of all of this. But adults don’t handle that well so kids don’t either. Education will change. Our way of working will change. Our whole society will change in many ways. And there will be more pandemics and more problems. So, wishing for “normal” is not reasonable but it is what people do when they’re stressed and tired. All teachers I know have remote students who have done little or nothing while “learning” at home. So, it’s not reasonable to say there is no learning loss for some kids. I can’t imagine that they’re sitting at home and reading, writing, thinking and taking the initiative to continue their work. Most kids I’ve known aren’t like that. I can imagine they’re playing video games and watching tiktoc. The question is how we’re going to handle this. More testing doesn’t seem to be reasonable. But, as much as we glorify reason, we are compelled by other things. In the end, it most likely will not be teachers who decide on a large scale how kids who have lost time in school will be treated. They will be told what to do and then held responsible for it no matter how ridiculous. That’s what it’s been in the past and it probably will continue in the future for a variety of reasons.
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I bet the consequence of the hoax will be that kids will be required to go to school in the summer. After sitting at home in front of the computer for a year.
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Alas, yes.
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Well, that would force a change in teacher contracts. A change most teachers won’t want, I bet.
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States have extra money now and in many of them parents will be happy if the money is spent on paying teachers to teach through the summer.
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An education is not something that one gets from other people in the first 12 or 14 or 16 or 20 years of one’s life. It’s something that you UNDERTAKE, not something that you UNDERGO. And, ofc, it takes place OVER A LIFETIME. I am more educated today than I was last year, I hope. If this isn’t what we are teaching our kids that an education is, then we need to fix that.
Now, suppose that during one year of that life, something terrible happened–a pandemic–and a lot of things were disrupted, including my visits to the gym and some of my ongoing education. No more Saturday afternoons at the library for you, Bob!
Well, stuff happens, doesn’t it? And fore most it’s not the freaking end of the world (though for some, alas, terribly, it is). You deal with things are they are left and go on, don’t you? You pick yourself up, clean yourself off, get your shots, and move on because there’s not any choice.
Diane tries to run a reasonably well-mannered salon, so the language that I would choose to use to describe those who think of education as milling kids, in their early years, to be replacement parts in the capitalist machine–the ones raising this cry about “the lost year”–is probably not acceptable, but I’ll give you a taste of it. It goes something like this: $@$&@^$@^!&!@&!!#&$@(&$@(@$()^!$(^)@^($@(^&$@^&$@&(!#(#!(&#!(&!#&#R^@$&@$^(@$$@(^$@*(!#&!&#!#!!!
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This is nicely put, Bob, and I thank you for it. When I interviewed for a spot in the New York City Teaching Fellowship in the fall of 2002, one of the things I noticed quickly is that the interviewer sought to discern whether or not I was a lifelong learner. I took that as a good sign. Unfortunately, it is not a view of education that obtains in the current culture–or in the New York City Department of Education, at least in the 16 years I spent in the employ of that benighted bureaucracy. In fact, especially at the post-secondary level, education has been subjected to a commodification to such an extent that college is no longer an entree into the life of the mind, but a “credentials race,” as David Labaree so aptly put it in his book “How to Succeed in School without Really Learning: The Credentials Race in American Education.” This “learning loss” rhetoric–which is real rubbish–fits nicely with this commodity model of learning and understanding. We teach kids they must “know” something to get past a high-stakes test, not that they should cultivate understanding that may, indeed, grow over a lifetime of study and contemplation. We don’t initiate students into a culture of intellectual and technical inquiry and all that implies, but rather to lurch from one futile bureaucratic ritual to another.
After a year away from this nonsense, I have begun to doubt I will be able to return to it.
OK, James Brown just shuffled up–“Get on the Good Foot!”–and I need to do just that.
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Beautiful, Mark! Yes!
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And to those, above, who made fun of folks who referred to what kids have learned FROM the pandemic and its associated changes in our behaviors, what will people remember, thirty years from now, from this time? They will remember the pandemic and how people reacted, for good and ill, and the lessons of that. That’s what they will talk about, what will have really mattered to them.
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I’m so glad you mentioned this. I had a diatribe welling inside of me. Unlike the children whose educations were disrupted in WWII, ours have not had bombs raining down on them and they haven’t been herded into cattle cars on the way to death camps. Yet those children created stable democracies in Western Europe and the U.S., where they also participated in the civil rights movement. As did the children of the Great Depression. Those events had long-term positive effects on our society. One where a Daniel Inouye and Robert Dole could be political opponents, but still admire each other and work together because of their common experiences.
As tragic as the pandemic has been, it had one great silver lining. It finally exposed the corrupt core of the past four years to enough Americans to change the course of governing. I very much believe we’d be witnessing the end of American governance without the effects of the pandemic. It’s still going to be hard work to move forward, but at least we have the chance to do the work.
If this generation of children learn the lessons of treating their neighbors with compassion, fairness, and humility, then they will have a real chance to create a better world. Too bad they still have navigate around the grifters who would rob them of that.
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Meant to include that I wholehearted agree with Mamie’s take above.
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Beautifully said, Greg!
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More than ironic that this idea is coming from the folks responsible for two decades of lost learning opportunities via testing policies that suffocated all but two subjects. Bold and unsubstantiated claims like this don’t pass even the slightest bit of scrutiny.
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My students have experienced serious learning loss, and I can tell anyone exactly what they lost: a lesson on Arabic writing, the whole Aztec unit, medieval peasant revolts, the crazy story of the showdown between a pope and a German emperor that contributed to Germany’s fragmentation, etc…
I wonder if the teachers who scoff at learning loss are the ones who don’t value knowledge.
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” wonder if the teachers who scoff at learning loss are the ones who don’t value knowledge.”
Why do you always have to make this personal, Ponderosa? You have an extreme, ideologically rigidified obsession with feeding kids with huge amounts of knowledge you view as absolutely essential, or their lives as human beings are wasted. Fine, but why do you always have to imply, one way or another, that those who do not share your views are losers?
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I apologize in advance Máté, because I understand what you’re saying. But if someone puts a transparent barrel stuffed with dead fish in front of you, it’s hard to resist the temptation to shoot. This is some serious self-righteous myopia. What’s lost? Arabic writing? Oh my! The whole Aztec unit? The whole one? Medieval peasant revolts? How can we continue to function? Crazy story…German fragmentation? Oy vey!
What exactly determines that these are essential, must be learned at a certain age, and if they are even relevant? Are the specifics of the stories more important than the lessons they impart. I know when I think back to the best teachers I had, I’ll be damned if I can remember the details of the lessons of what they taught. But I do remember that they taught me how to discern, how to search for answers on my own, how to compare to the world I lived in, and in general, an independence to want to learn more. I think that’s what teaching is.
But the arrogance of a teacher sure of his/her knowing exactly what and when to teach in social studies and history is not what I would call education. The core lessons behind every example you cite can be taught in a myriad of ways and does not have be taught in a certain grade or time or, and you miss this point completely, from a particular cultural point of view. Let’s take the concept of cultural and political fragmentation. You know a good way to teach that right now? Pick up a newspaper and read it. We’ve got loads of lessons of fragmentation right here. And why a specific episode of German history? Why not the struggles facing Simon Bolivar? The Chinese Revolution? Belgian incursion and atrocities in the Congo? Reading Zola’s Germinal? The Rosenberg Trial and McCarthyism? My fellow readers will come up with hundreds, thousands of other examples. What makes you so omniscient and maternalistic/paternalistic?
Make sure your kids get books during the pandemic and make some time to discuss them with them. And when they can get back in the classroom, nurture their thinking and expression. Forcing them to follow some rigid, rote routine is not educating.
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These are the California state standards that Diane helped write.
So you’re OK with students graduating with no knowledge of the Aztecs? Got it.
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Ponderosa, just remember, kids are resilient. They’ll be fine. Aztecs, who needs them? Trigonometry, big deal. Kids are learning different things—like how to wear a mask in public! They’re also lucky they aren’t getting bombed. And parents who complain about schools being closed for over a year are just selfish whiners.
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It’s sad that the kids won’t learn about the Aztecs but here’s the thing: we have been living through a once in a century pandemic. More than half a million people in this country died. Standardized testing will not measure what kids did not learn about the Aztecs. The “learning loss” debate is NOT about content. It’s about the need for data data data about reading and math. Since there was no testing in 2020, the tests can’t measure learning loss even in the basic subjects. The people who write the tests don’t care about the Aztecs.
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I took three years of history in high school–a survey world history course, U.S. history and modern European history. I can’t say the Aztecs were ever a big topic seeing as how they would have been covered in a survey course of all human history. I really liked history, especially when we dove into how people lived/acted and why. I carry a way of thinking about people that is grounded in an awareness of how societies have evolved and changed. If I wanted to develop a mature understanding of the Aztec civilization, I certainly would not be relying on my K-12 learning, but if I had gone into a profession/specialty that demanded a more extensive knowledge base, I would have been expanding that knowledge base in post secondary education.
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Teaching a unit in a science or social studies curriculum is not just about filling the bucket (although what parent expects an empty bucket after 13 years?). What kids also lose is the opportunity to spark a deeper interest, the chance to find their niche in a life beyond their smart phones. If you don’t believe in conveying knowledge why would you become a teacher?
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“If you don’t believe in conveying knowledge why would you become a teacher?”
The belief the above statement is pretending to explore is, in fact, that “conveying knowledge” is not equal with feeding data to kids at any cost.
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Pondy, the cherry picker: since you ignore my argument completely, let’s try it this way. What’s the reason the stories of the power and influence of the Aztecs and its subsequent demise are important? Is it to instill rote memorization of times, places and events; does it have to be taught at a certain age group at a particular, immutable time? Or is it to impart greater lessons of the fragile nature of power, hubris, cultural genocide? I would argue you think it is the former and I the latter. And if it is the latter, are there other times and other topics that convey the same message? And if those are taught with the intention of instilling in students a lifelong curiosity and ways to satisfy it, has not the teacher done an admirable job? In the 80s I taught, to my knowledge, the only one semester course on African history in the South, perhaps the nation. Could I have not imparted many of the same lessons that teaching, for example, about Aztec history, and might not that have given my students the ability to learn about it at some future date? Let’s see what you cherry pick out of this.
Flerp, I’m guessing if we both took tests right now on Aztecs and trig that we would probably both score quite low. But as for “parents who complain about schools being closed for over a year are just selfish whiners,” I would say yes if they ignored the efforts teachers, administrators, physicians, nurses, researchers, and policymakers have been doing their best to cope, however imperfect it may be at times, with what will hopefully be a once in a lifetime worldwide catastrophe. If they were not and just threw up their hands in frustration, I would say no. So I guess my answer in this specific case to your lawyerly question is a resounding “Yes!” I would rate more than 539,000 American deaths, the more than 2.7 million deaths worldwide, economic losses that have not be addressed by policymakers in the US as they have in other industrialized nations, and efforts to minimize and ignore the problem as much more important. If parents rate their children not being to able to attend school as they did before the pandemic as a higher priority than just those few facts I’ve mentioned above, then yes, they are whiners. Privileged whiners at that.
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Promoting ignorance is not a good look for teachers.
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Well-said! So many of these comments are tone deaf and out-of-touch. The learning loss is real and has real consequences for real children–especially the vulnerable ones who do not have the means to purchase pandemic pods and tutors. So let me put a face on this discussion, from one of my third graders who’s been learning remotely for a year. Yes–he’s learned how to wear a mask, but think of his second language needs and what he hasn’t learned. He wrote:
i dint remember the words or stuff joe did ms janetos i feel bad that i dint remember
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Of course, absence from school matters.
Of course many children have suffered from lack of schooling and human interaction.
Many children will return with social and emotional concerns, as well as the trauma of losing a loved member of the family.
Unfortunately, those beating the drums about “learning loss” are not interested in such issues. Their goal is to restart the standardized annual testing on the assumption that it will produce data to quantify learning loss in reading and math. But the tests were not offered in 2020. How can the baseline be 2019, two years ago? That doesn’t measure COVID learning loss. Every child will get a ranking or rating. No one will learn anything about individual children.
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Your take on the reason for the hullabaloo over “learning loss” needs to be constantly repeated. When people veer off into seemingly denying the value of the academic instruction, it is taken as an insult to the teachers who have been bending over backwards to provide that instruction. What we can’t do is quantify the effects of loss of in person instruction with bogus standardized testing. That doesn’t mean there hasn’t been an impact. The bean counters can’t stand that we can’t put learning in a jar and guess the number of beans.
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The bean counters think you can count the beans in the jar with precision to find out how many are missing. They don’t know what they are measuring, nor do the test publishers.
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PLEASE: If you’re concerned about testing, write about your concerns. But pretending there isn’t learning loss just detracts from your testing message. Learning loss is real: teachers know it and students know it. Pretending that it isn’t doesn’t make your case against testing any stronger.
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The pandemic has been a serious problem. It’s a given that schooling hasn’t gone smoothly, but let’s not advocate that some major learning disaster occurred. Teachers will regroup, will adjust the curriculum so that in the fall they will expect less background from their pupils and perhaps omit some not so essential material.
If some insists on testing the kids, they have to show the same flexibility. Nothing is set in stone in education, especially not in the curriculum.
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Harriet,
How do you measure learning loss?
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As you have often pointed out, teachers know their students. I know where my third graders were this time last year and where they are now.
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You know more about your students than any standardized test.
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Is this a discussion about learning loss or testing? I thought we were discussing learning loss because I have been reading lots of comments from learning-loss deniers. Please clarify.
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Exactly, and Harriet knows this year’s students are well behind where last year’s students were at this time, and that is scary for her and probably some of her students. They are old enough to know they are struggling, which would be especially scary in a third grade retention state. As a former special education teacher, I am especially aware of the number “being dumb” plays on children. I have seen it from first grade through high school. Most recently I remember hearing that my kindergarten granddaughter had come home and declared that she was stupid when she didn’t immediately take off with reading. This push for earlier and earlier instruction raises my hackles, but it doesn’t change the reality for the students. We need to get out of our own lane and view it from the child’s point of view, as well as the teacher’s. Dismissing the concerns of classroom teachers whom we at the same time claim know their students best when they say they are worried is problematic for me. Do we trust what a classroom teacher sees only when it agrees with our philosophical beliefs? I will agree that I am less concerned about loss in knowledge base in high school than I am with the loss of basic skill development in the elementary years. At a certain point, the kids who have not mastered those basic skills are just expected to keep up as the rest of the class moves on. If they didn’t “get it” within the allotted time frame,…tough luck. Maybe we can force the powers to be to step back and slow down, but that requires more than an end to testing.
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Thank you for stating the complexity of this issue so eloquently.
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Hang in there.
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So the fourth grade teacher could do some catching up and may allow some omissions from the usual material.
Unfortunately, learning nowadays cannot be separated from testing because the year end standardized tests won’t be as flexible as the above fourth grade teacher could be. The testing companies will demand the same stuff from the kids even this year, not to mention next year.
So there is absolutely no need to play this hardball logic of “are we discussing testing or learning”, since it’s the testing companies and their enablers who do not allow teachers to separate the two from each other. That they are intertwined is not Diane’s fault.
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Dianne has been very clear that she was referring to testing gurus and their obsession/marketing of the concept of learning loss being defined by test scores. Your comments can be seen as a lack of concern for the struggles of teachers who see their students struggling now. It’s a bit like telling someone whose house is flooding not to worry because the water will go down.
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I do not think you are referring to me, speduktr. I was replying to a comment made by Harriett Janetos where she was trying to separate the concerns for “learning loss” from testing. If the teacher’s only problem was that she couldn’t cover all the material she wanted to in the past year, the school could easily adjust to the changed situation. The problem is that states still want to give tests which assume nothing has changed in the past year, as if teachers covered everything.
Worrying about material that was not covered during the pandemic is not a big deal on its own, and making kids and their parents also worry about it is worrisome. It’s better to direct everybody’s attention to the real issue: the unreasonable demands of tests and how they could be avoided via optouts or pressuring politicians.
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What many don’t understand is that little kids aren’t just learning ‘material’. They are learning important skills like reading and writing. My third graders came to me in September mostly just writing simple sentences, so I have been teaching them how to write focused paragraphs. This time last year, my students were writing multi-paragraph pieces (stories, articles, opinions). With no in-person interaction–along with all the other inadequacies of distance learning–their skills are underdeveloped compared to previous years. That’s the reality plain and simple. I believe it would be arrogant and insensitive for me to say to a child, “Well, at least you’ve learned how to wear a mask. Sorry about the rest. You won’t have the same skills as your middle-class peers have, but we’ll pretend that learning loss is a hoax. Good luck to you as you make your way in the world, which will also be indifferent to your learning loss because it can, in fact, be quite cruel to the disadvantaged.”
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Exactly.
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I think Harriet started out just wanting a definition of what was meant by learning loss, of which Dianne has done an admiral job of providing. Her concern was that we were dismissing the clear differences she sees in what her third graders would normally be doing at this time of the year and where they are. Most of the kids will be okay. Some will struggle more than others to get back in the groove. The larger concern is whether the test and punish crowd controls the narrative when kids are back in person. As an individual teacher, Harriet will have little control over such policy decisions. It is only natural that her concern is for her students. Her flood ain’t an earthquake, but it’s still a flood. A little confusion has resulted in more back and forth than perhaps is necessary. My dog with a bone side is showing.
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“i dint remember the words or stuff joe did ms janetos i feel bad that i dint remember”
Yeah, an expected response from a kid who is made feel guilty over not knowing something. Way to go, ms janitos.
Those who are beating the drum over learning loss, in fact, keep hammering into these little kids that they lost something significant, and so the kids and their parents feel guilty, and instead of letting the kids recover from this year of pandemic during the summer, they will spend the summer in classrooms, trying to find what they lost.
These learning loss drum-beaters’ ideas of what kids need to do to have a good a life and what kids actually need are completely disjoint.
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The problem is that the phrase “learning loss” has too many interpretations.
Is it the learning lost through pandemic absenteeism or cyber-truancy?
Is it the loss of learning in math and ELA manifested through lower test scores?
Is it the learning lost due to the pandemic induced expansion of the null curricula?
Is it the loss of soft social skills?
Is it the learning lost due to the self discipline demands of remote instruction?
Well . . . ?
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I think the “learning loss” which is being denigrated is that which the test makers are bemoaning that would supposedly be demonstrated by test scores, hence the push to test this spring. That is different than what a classroom teacher would see as lost although even how that is defined is, I think, dependent on age/grade level, among other factors. It is sometimes difficult to see that dichotomy in the comments.
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Well, this has gone off the rails and unfortunately, sped, I think you are going off with them. Of course we’re concerned about students and education. Why else would we be here? But to get hysterical about learning loss and the concerns classroom teachers have about their students falling behind and ignore EVERYTHING else that has happened over the past year (plus the 3-4 years prior as well as the world since NCLB and RTTT, but let’s focus on the pandemic year) is as shortsighted as it gets.
Food insecurity, evictions, joblessness, and the mental stresses caused by them are more important than schools. Period. Oh, and deaths and illness, lest we forget. We have to be creative about education in times of crisis, not constantly bemoan things aren’t normal and therefore the sky is falling. The real threats, as Diane has done such a great job of reminding us the past year, are not learning loss, but the fact that state and national legislative bodies are using this crisis to do their damndest to make sure we won’t have public education at all if and when things get back to normal. If that happens, what will the moaners say and do? That’s not a dichotomy that’s difficult to see.
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Guess what? We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can actually care about the every day concerns of teachers who are presently on the “front line” trying to continue teaching under difficult circumstances AND recognize that there are bigger concerns when it comes to societal ills.
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Larry Cuban provides a more humorous take on the toils of teaching right now: https://larrycuban.wordpress.com/2021/03/20/cartoons-on-teaching-during-the-pandemic/
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[…] With some schools shutdown for over a year – many of them in California – the devastation to children is immeasurable. Of course, some union leaders and their acolytes refuse to acknowledge this tragedy. Chief union toady Diane Ravitch, who is wrong about, well, everything, recently implored her readers in a vapid blog post not to believe the “learning loss hoax.” […]
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[…] With some schools closed now for over a year—many of them in California—the devastation to children is immeasurable. Of course, some union leaders and their acolytes refuse to acknowledge this tragedy. Chief union toady Diane Ravitch, who is wrong about, well, everything, recently implored her readers in a vapid blog post not to believe the “learning loss hoax.” […]
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See the above written by Larry Sand, who makes a living attacking unions. I say in reply that I am a proud Union toady. Better than being a running dog for the Waltons, DeVos, and Koch.
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[…] With some schools closed now for over a year—many of them in California—the devastation to children is immeasurable. Of course, some union leaders and their acolytes refuse to acknowledge this tragedy. Chief union toady Diane Ravitch, who is wrong about, well, everything, recently implored her readers in a vapid blog post not to believe the “learning loss hoax.” […]
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That’s me. Union toady, Union thug, though I never belonged to a Union.
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[…] With some schools closed now for over a year – many of them in California – the devastation to children is immeasurable. Of course, some union leaders and their acolytes refuse to acknowledge this tragedy. Chief union toady Diane Ravitch, who is wrong about, well, everything, recently implored her readers in a vapid blog post not to believe the “learning loss hoax.” […]
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[…] With some schools closed now for over a year – many of them in California – the devastation to children is immeasurable. Of course, some union leaders and their acolytes refuse to acknowledge this tragedy. Chief union toady Diane Ravitch, who is wrong about, well, everything, recently implored her readers in a vapid blog post not to believe the “learning loss hoax.” […]
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[…] With some schools shutdown for over a year – many of them in California – the devastation to children is immeasurable. Of course, some union leaders and their acolytes refuse to acknowledge this tragedy. Chief union toady Diane Ravitch, who is wrong about, well, everything, recently implored her readers in a vapid blog post not to believe the “learning loss hoax.” […]
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Proof or Hoax : 1) billy cousin said Elvis talk about Switch places& He Marty told story news that maria took off with Elvis in black camping van & while scott switcheroo in bathroom? 2)Gene Smith said that it wasn’t elvis in Coff_in? 3) Gene Wife Louise said man didn’t look Elvis?4) Jerry P_ said in family believe it wasn’t Elvis in coff_n? 5)Hinton book /utube said Jesse is Elvis&Col arrange the Switcheroo? 6)Sigmon said jesse is Elvis?7)Eliza daughter Flo wrote to Jesse /Dna test ?8)Mr Joseph took infamous pix Elvis/while he at graceland 6mo after he passed?9)Linda Johnson Jesse would of aged like Elvis?10) Hinton pix of Jesse/Elvis with Benj is it Benjamin?11)graceland saw helicopters77? 12)fast cleanup? 13)Strada/Esposito/Stanley&vernon in bathroom? 14) ginger went(other) bathroom clean self up/put makeup on while Elvis lay before called ?15)Elvis Fans claim see him ?16)BillyMann/wayne mann/janet smith =who took coffin pix?17) HomelessJessie Dna Elvis found in SanDiego-Report newspapers?
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