My Interview on “Democracy Now”

December 26, 2020 //

I was interviewed by Amy Goodman and Juan González about President-Elect Biden’s choice of Miguel Cardona. He needs not only to reverse Betsy DeVos’s four disastrous years, but 20 years of bad federal policy.

Here it is.

Categories Betsy DeVos, Biden, Cardona, Miguel, Education Reform, U.S. Department of Education

46 Comments Post your own or leave a trackback: Trackback URL

Yvonne says:

December 26, 2020 at 11:12 am

Your interview is terrific, Diane.

Thank you.

LikeLiked by 1 person

Reply
GregB says:

December 26, 2020 at 11:36 am

Thanks for this. It’s a good clip for everyone out there to share so that those who don’t follow education can get a great summary.

LikeLiked by 1 person

Reply
beachteach says:

December 26, 2020 at 12:13 pm

Great interview. Thank you. You should be an advisor to the Ed Department. It was clear before – but seeing how quickly and easily so much knowledge and rich information flows and is articulated so clearly in an interview – it’s a no brainer.

Another concern about Mr. Cardona is that he became a principal by the age of 28, signaling to me that he had a short time as a teacher and did not have to teach during the test, data accountability craze that came after he left the classroom. It makes a huge difference acting as a principal (or administrator) mandating these policies to your teachers – or a teacher actually in a classroom full of children during these mandates.

LikeLike

Reply
- retired teacher says:
  
  December 26, 2020 at 12:32 pm
  
  I agree. Dr. Cardona has the requisite credentials, but limited experience. He would benefit having a mentor in his new challenging position. Someone with a background in scholarship and activism like Diane could be of great assistance to him.
  
  LikeLiked by 1 person
  
  Reply
- SomeDAM Poet says:
  
  December 27, 2020 at 12:44 pm
  
  Id like to be proven wrong, but I seriously doubt that Diane will be sought after for advice – for the very same reason that Fenwick was not chosen to head Department of Ed: too ” controversial.”
  
  It would be like asking Cornell West to be a Pentagon advisor.
  
  “Icebergs ahead, but steady as she goes”
  
  LikeLike
  
  Reply
Catherine King says:

December 26, 2020 at 12:37 pm

Diane: I thought at the beginning that it was going to be like so many other “interviews” where the interviewer only uses the interviewee as a foil for their own view-airing. Fortunately, that changed. And you, Diane, easily turned an over-long yes/no question into an incisive informational narrative . . . especially where you covered Cardona’s background.

Also, I liked the focus later in the interview on specific charter problems and the difference between political plants’ resistance (as Devos wants) and the long-time staff who will support the new administration’s goals; and perhaps even expose leftover political intent (pun intended). And then you emphasized public schools throughout the interview–I had to wonder if Goodman is aware of the import?

What was missing, though understandably so in such a brief context, was (1) the core relationship of public anything (but especially for schooling) to a democracy-in-act and its experimental nature; and (2) how charter and private schools breach that intimate relationship . . . on principle . . . which means, regardless of the intentions or “success” of the curriculum, privatization by any name, schools are enabled to become separated from the political principles that keep democracy alive and luminous from generation to generation.

A third, would be: the intention of some to write that separation in stone . . . when powerful bad actors and corporations, ruled by the economic principles of capitalism-only, fill that breach, they go-after all-things-public with every tool in their well-funded box; and the democracy has a well-timed cultural bomb placed at the base of the institutions that keep a democratic culture alive. Boom.

But I came away thinking that it was a great interview, and that your presence was clear-sighted and formidable. CBK

LikeLiked by 1 person

Reply
- dianeravitch says:
  
  December 26, 2020 at 12:42 pm
  
  CBK,
  
  I would have liked to say a lot more. Especially that it was necessary not just to reverse DeVos’ disasters, but the disasters of the past 20 years.
  
  LikeLiked by 1 person
  
  Reply
  - Catherine King says:
    
    December 26, 2020 at 1:10 pm
    
    Diane Yes . . . except you did mention the longevity of the problem, if I remember rightly, at least twice. You put just enough into the context NOT to need literary or poetic references to replace factual analysis and comment . . . for brevity and image-calling.
    
    I also thought Juan’s statistical references to the numbers of Latino students in different states probably scared the pants off neo-liberals and reformers who may see the piece. . . at least the ones who are core racists and afraid of being “taken over;” and whether they know it of themselves or not.
    
    Lastly, as the head of a communications outlet named “Democracy Now,” for all the good that she does, if Amy Goodman does not know about the HUGE gulf between public and private/capitalistic institutions, and their conflicted relationship with one another at their core, and in the context of education in democratic states, she should. CBK
    
    LikeLike
  - Catherine King says:
    
    December 26, 2020 at 1:17 pm
    
    Addendum Maybe in the context of the present attacks on democracy, perhaps “Democracy Now” should have a relatively permanent and regular section on education with its relationship to democracy, WITHOUT seeming to endorse simple-minded “socialism.”
    
    I say that having watched her program SOMETIMES, but note regularly. But if she understands the problems brought by the size and power of unleashed corporations, then she should probably stop shooting at individuals and do some things that speak to the whole political picture. Her interviews with Chomsky are an exemption. But if I have just missed something in my suggesting/criticism, I will be glad to be corrected. CBK
    
    LikeLike
  - ciedie aech says:
    
    December 26, 2020 at 2:27 pm
    
    yes, it did feel to be a very short interview: I like Democracy Now but feel it has missed the mark on delving deeply enough into school privatization efforts and the blatant racism attached to testing/closings
    
    LikeLike
- Bob Shepherd says:
  
  December 26, 2020 at 2:13 pm
  
  CBK, when I despair about the fact that 46.9 percent of the electorate voted for The Idiot after the utter incompetence and criminality and traitorousness of his maladministration, I remind myself that the demographics of this country are against the Repugnicans, big time. The youth vote is against them on all the issues, and the populations they lost are the ones that are expanding most. No amount of vote fixing (e.g., one ballot box per county in Texas; few polling places in black and brown communities, etc) can fix the long-term problem they have, and a vast expansion of religious schooling post Espinoza or the creation of Trump’s extremist nationalist propaganda curricula will not be sufficient to keep the Repugnicans in power. They can change or become a historical phenomenon like the Know Nothing party, like foot binding, like the burning of witches in Europe. The ONLY way they can hold onto power in the not-so-long term is via creation of a fascist state. Some of them, like Bill Barr, understand this, and in the 2024 election, we’re likely to see a few younger, more articulate presidential candidates who understand this as well. We’re at an inflection point.
  
  LikeLike
  
  Reply
  - Catherine King says:
    
    December 26, 2020 at 2:34 pm
    
    Bob Yes, we are “at an inflection point.” The fact that, for instance, voter suppression is no longer in the closet but openly intended by politicians, is EITHER a last-gasp, OR a new beginning that, regardless, plays on elitism in the electorate . . . the same electorate that is victimized by the elitism of in-office politicians. CBK
    
    LikeLiked by 1 person
  - Bob Shepherd says:
    
    December 26, 2020 at 2:40 pm
    
    Beautifully observed, CBK!
    
    LikeLike
  - Catherine King says:
    
    December 26, 2020 at 2:57 pm
    
    Bob Thx. I think the only difference between the elite electorate and elite wealthy politicians has to do with whom they leave out or, on the other hand, whom they let in but hold their noses about. Elite wealthy politicians let in the wealthy-only, but hold their noses about wealthy “off-color” people.
    
    Whereas the elite electorate pretend not to let anyone different in, neither the wealthy nor the off-color, but in fact worship the wealthy regardless . . . and so they cannot see themselves as their victims. There is no consistency to it, however. Each one holds their noses for different reasons in different situations.
    
    Throw the pencil down! The victimized electorate is so very confused! CBK
    
    LikeLike
  - Joel Herman (@jwherman11) says:
    
    December 26, 2020 at 7:18 pm
    
    I shudder to think about what happens in the next election when Biden fails to deliver. Doing so would be difficult under the best of circumstances , if he won those two senate seats in Georgia. The Republican obstruction and propaganda feeding an ignorant base and only a slightly more engaged electorate will be brutal, with or without the majority . There has always been enough Democrats to vote with Republicans against the progressive policy those young voters want.
    
    The right wing echo sphere even surprised me with how quickly they attacked the Covid relief bill . Tying the Omnibus Budget Bill which in many areas like foriegn aid was a mere pass through of the Trump budget proposal sitting in congress for 10 months, to the Covid relief bill negotiated separately .
    
    Is Biden up to the fight. Will he take the battle to the American people. Will those Blue dog democrats worry about offending Biden as Republicans worry about Trump. .
    Does he even want to? Will Progressives again be told to stop their whining.
    
    LikeLiked by 1 person
  - Bob Shepherd says:
    
    December 26, 2020 at 7:32 pm
    
    If past is prelude, Biden will govern from right of center and deliver little of what progressives want and still be mercilessly obstructed and accused of left-wing extremism by the Repugnicans. It’s going to be necessary to keep pressure on Biden to deliver some of what he promised. I’ve watched Democrats promise hope and change all my life and then deliver the Status Quo.
    
    LikeLike
  - Catherine King says:
    
    December 26, 2020 at 8:17 pm
    
    Bob I cannot help but think that education in any U.S. camp gets a short shrift precisely because, on principle, it’s not a “money maker;” and in our culture, if it doesn’t make money, it’s not important; or at least, not AS important, by a long shot, as getting and owning.
    
    Like protecting the environment and keeping climate change at bay, the educational “investment” we make in children and later in young people and adults has its effect in long-term “payoffs” . . . in those concerned understanding what is so obviously misunderstood or not understood by Trump and the Trumpists among us. If Trumpists understand what they are supporting, then that’s one thing. But if they do not understand what they are supporting, then it’s on the educational establishment and our capitalist- cultural purveyors who make democratic culture a short-term historical event. It’s just not important enough, regardless of, or perhaps precisely because of, its lack of moneymaking power.
    
    What kind of price-tag can we put on a peaceful transfer, not only of power, but of an intergenerational understanding of how we keep the foundations of democracy strong and resilient for a constant renewal of humans as developmental and against the forces of corruption and, politically, of oligarchy and fascism. This cultural mindset is much bigger than Biden but, of course, it includes him, and Hilary before him . . . and for the Republicans, it goes without saying . . . it’s baked in to the long term, systematic putting-aside of education and the absence of respect afforded teachers, parents, and community educators. They are the soul of democracy that Republicans have come to hate, and not dupes to be sucked dry and manipulated by fake people who own yachts. CBK
    
    LikeLike
  - Joel Herman (@jwherman11) says:
    
    December 27, 2020 at 8:13 am
    
    Fully agree .
    
    LikeLike
  - Bob Shepherd says:
    
    December 27, 2020 at 3:57 pm
    
    OK. I completed the nomination. Here’s the description I left:
    
    Dr. Diane Ravitch is a former Assistant Secretary of Education, author of 13 books and editor of 14 more, a regular contributor to the New York Review of Books, and founder and president of the Network for Public Education. Her most recent books include the best-selling Slaying Goliath (2020), Reign of Error (2013), and The Death and Life of the Great American School System (2010). She is the de facto leader of the grassroots movement to preserve and protect community-based public education. On her popular blog, she daily and bravely calls out charlatans and grifters on the education carnival midway and fights to protect poor children, children and parents of color, children with disabilities, and children and teachers generally. In addition to being the nation’s foremost historian of education (her Left Back is one of the great education classics), she has also become our premier muckraker–the Ambrose Bierce, Ida B. Wells, Ida Tarbell, Lincoln Steffens, Nelly Bly, and Upton Sinclair of our age. A brilliant, fierce, relentless fighter for justice and equity in U.S. education, she is, for those of us who teach in public schools, our Boadicea, our learned and indefatigable Jeanne d’Arc.
    
    LikeLike
  - beachteach says:
    
    December 27, 2020 at 4:03 pm
    
    Excellent! Thank you.
    
    LikeLike
- ciedie aech says:
  
  December 26, 2020 at 2:26 pm
  
  Formidable. Good word 🙂
  
  LikeLike
  
  Reply
Bob Shepherd says:

December 26, 2020 at 1:59 pm

Note to other journalists:

Take a lesson from Amy Goodman and Juan González and, when you need someone on your show to talk about education, find one who actually knows what she’s talking about. You can do no better than the brilliant, articulate, profoundly insightful, and extraordinarily well-informed Dr. Diane Ravitch, as this brief interview amply illustrates.

Want to know what expertise sounds like? Listen to a talk by Diane Ravitch.

LikeLike

Reply
- Laura H. Chapman says:
  
  December 26, 2020 at 2:33 pm
  
  Yes. A fact-based response from someone who knows issues and possibilities in education. Arne Duncan is too often treated as if he an education guru. My blood pressure rises every time he is on TV and is given undeserved respect, rather than being recognized as a hustler of failed ideas and damaging policies. Thank You Amy and Diane..
  
  LikeLiked by 1 person
  
  Reply
  - Bob Shepherd says:
    
    December 26, 2020 at 2:44 pm
    
    When The Wisdom and Wit of Diane Ravitch was published, some wag commented that The Wisdom and Wit of Arne Duncan would be a VERY short book. Wrong. It would be blank, like the dummy copies that printers make up to give publishers a feel for the final product.
    
    LikeLike
  - SomeDAM Poet says:
    
    December 27, 2020 at 1:22 pm
    
    The Wizdumb and Nitwit of Arne Duncan
    
    LikeLike
  - Catherine King says:
    
    December 27, 2020 at 1:25 pm
    
    SomeDAM It seems to me that the Duncan focus is more about celebrity than expertise. CBK
    
    LikeLike
  - SomeDAM Poet says:
    
    December 27, 2020 at 1:23 pm
    
    Dumbkin
    
    Sorry
    
    LikeLike
retiredbutmissthekids says:

December 26, 2020 at 5:53 pm

Laura:
Unfortunately, Arne DUHncan sticks like glue to Chicago: he was recently written up (I think the story was FOUR pages as one of the positive movers & shakers in Chicago, so much does he help “troubled” Chicago youth. (BTW, his kids go to Lab School, he lives in a house that was featured in “Elite St.” real estate section of Chicago paper–over $1 million, near Obamas’ Hyde Park home). Part of the reason we have some many “troubled” youth (school to prison pipeline, greatly helped by RT3 policies & stupid Chicago “Renaissance” Plan, which displaced students from their community schools & helped to increase gang #s, shootings, etc. (what happens when kids have no “community” to turn to–they join gangs as parent/community surrogates–DUH!!!).
&, Bob, that “Wit & Wisdumb” book to which you refer was, indeed, written–it was called How Schools Work. Didn’t sell very well, because DUHncan hasn’t a clue.

Finally, I’d suggested, in a post about your Democracy Now! appearance, Diane, that Amy should give you almost the full hour with all you have to say. (It’s always Noam Chomsky!) I do watch the show every night, CBK, & I agree w/you–education isn’t covered nearly enough. In fact, I would love to see you on with Cardona, Diane–a Q-&-A, maybe. As I’d said, in the time allotted, you did a great job of hitting the important points.

& I just knew you weren’t going to take that break until after 1/1/21!!!

LikeLike

Reply
- Bob Shepherd says:
  
  December 26, 2020 at 7:40 pm
  
  Diane Ravitch: And on the seventh day, she rested for a few minutes. and then went back to work.
  
  LikeLike
  
  Reply
  - beachteach says:
    
    December 27, 2020 at 10:37 am
    
    Hi Bob, I think Diane should be nominated for Forbes 50 over 50:
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/maggiemcgrath/2020/02/26/introducing-forbes-50-over-50-highlighting-women-shattering-age-and-gender-norms/?sh=2f8d415c1a72
    
    I also think, since you are so good with words, that you would be the perfect person to fill out the nomination form – if you have time and think it’s a good idea.
    
    LikeLiked by 1 person
  - Bob Shepherd says:
    
    December 27, 2020 at 3:29 pm
    
    An excellent idea!!!
    
    LikeLike
  - Bob Shepherd says:
    
    December 27, 2020 at 4:01 pm
    
    I completed the nomination form. Here, the text of my description of the remarkable Dr. Ravitch:
    
    Dr. Diane Ravitch is a former Assistant Secretary of Education, author of 13 books and editor of 14 more, a regular contributor to the New York Review of Books, and founder and president of the Network for Public Education. Her most recent books include the best-selling Slaying Goliath (2020), Reign of Error (2013), and The Death and Life of the Great American School System (2010). She is the de facto leader of the grassroots movement to preserve and protect community-based public education. On her popular blog, she daily and bravely calls out charlatans and grifters on the education carnival midway and fights to protect poor children, children and parents of color, children with disabilities, and children and teachers generally. In addition to being the nation’s foremost historian of education (her Left Back is one of the great education classics), she has also become our premier muckraker–the Ambrose Bierce, Ida B. Wells, Ida Tarbell, Lincoln Steffens, Nelly Bly, and Upton Sinclair of our age. A brilliant, fierce, relentless fighter for justice and equity in U.S. education, she is, for those of us who teach in public schools, our Boadicea, our learned and indefatigable Jeanne d’Arc.
    
    LikeLike
- SomeDAM Poet says:
  
  December 27, 2020 at 1:29 pm
  
  Noam Chomsky gets old after awhile.
  
  He has some interesting things to say but for some reason, he takes waay more words than are required.
  
  And there is something very annoying about his delivery.
  
  He has a monotonic way of speaking about the most monstrous things.
  
  LikeLike
  
  Reply
  - SomeDAM Poet says:
    
    December 27, 2020 at 1:32 pm
    
    Perhaps that is what being a linguist is about: maximizing word use.
    
    LikeLike
  - retiredbutmissthekids says:
    
    December 27, 2020 at 3:50 pm
    
    I agree, which is why I wrote that in my comment above. Enough!
    Democracy Now! needs to do at LEAST one show per week on education.
    
    LikeLike
  - dianeravitch says:
    
    December 27, 2020 at 6:06 pm
    
    Great idea! Send a note to Amy Goodman.
    
    LikeLike
  - Bob Shepherd says:
    
    December 27, 2020 at 4:30 pm
    
    There are thousands of practicing linguistics scholars in the world, but for sixty years, whenever there has been a revolution, a paradigm shift, in our understanding of the field, it has been introduced in a paper by Chomsky. He is the Einstein of this field. And agree with him or not, on politics and economics, he’s always fascinating.
    
    LikeLike
  - Bob Shepherd says:
    
    December 27, 2020 at 4:31 pm
    
    But yes! An hour with Diane Ravitch on Democracy Now! would be awesome.
    
    LikeLike
flos56 says:

December 26, 2020 at 11:50 pm

Thank you for this information, Diane. I’m still a little concerned, but the future of education will definitely be better under anyone but Betsy. I’ll remain positive until I hear more.

LikeLike

Reply
John Ogozalek says:

December 27, 2020 at 7:41 am

I finally had a chance to watch this clip and it’s wonderful.

It’s nice to hear your voice, Diane.

Funny thing is, over the years I’ve mainly heard Amy Goodman on the radio driving to and from school. And, I’ve mainly read your words, before and after school.

I’d also love to have a couple hours to peruse all those books on the shelves that are behind you, ha, ha.

About the content of what you’re saying….well, anyone who knows this blog appreciates what you can accomplish, even in a short interview like this.

For example, there’s this notion in our culture that, ‘Oh God, what if our children aren’t given long, onerous, standardized tests each and every year…what will we do? Our kids, their future will be sunk!’

I was just talking to a longtime journalist friend of mine who has that concern….

And, you manage to harpoon that huge, bloated, wrong-headed idea then deftly slice and dice it up in short order. And, save the taxpayers hundreds of millions along the way..

Touché!

But it’s all the little things, too, that matter -a lot. Words and phrases. To take another example, it’s not reformers who have messed up federal education policy for 20 years….it’s “so-called reformers.” Yup!

Let’s hope 2021 is the start of a long climb out of the Hobbesian pit that our nation has been pulled into. And that we get to hear a lot more of your voice.

LikeLike

Reply
- dianeravitch says:
  
  December 27, 2020 at 11:12 am
  
  Thank you, John. My partner told me I should have smiled. I was thinking about words and how to get complicated ideas across in 20 seconds, and I forgot to smile!
  The people who are terrified that children might not be tested this spring really need to know more about how useless the tests are.
  If the teacher is not permitted to see the questions and is not permitted to know how her individual students did on every question, and the results arrive 4-5 months later, of what value are the tests?
  Imagine going to a doctor for your annual checkup, and he says he will get back to you in 4-6 months! But he won’t give you individualized results, he will tell you how you did compared to others of your age and weight!
  
  LikeLike
  
  Reply
  - Bob Shepherd says:
    
    December 27, 2020 at 4:33 pm
    
    Imagine going to a doctor for your annual checkup, and he says he will get back to you in 4-6 months! But he won’t give you individualized results, he will tell you how you did compared to others of your age and weight!
    
    You have this knack, Diane, for the perfect analogy!
    
    LikeLike
  - flos56 says:
    
    December 28, 2020 at 10:30 pm
    
    It is a serious topic with ramifications which will affect millions of children. In this case it was better not to smile.
    
    LikeLike
  - dianeravitch says:
    
    December 28, 2020 at 10:52 pm
    
    Thank you!
    
    LikeLike
Angiesullivan0@gmail.com says:

December 27, 2020 at 11:53 am

I am trying to be positive.

LikeLike

Reply
- retiredbutmissthekids says:
  
  December 27, 2020 at 3:53 pm
  
  Angie–we’re all positive, here. Positively sick of the te$t$ & tho$e who promulgate them. Positive they are u$ele$$–only of u$e to all of tho$e $tealing our taxpayer $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ meant for REAL education.
  
  Yep–we’re positive.
  
  LikeLike
  
  Reply