Ben Jackson, anti-NRA activist, writes that Trump and the NRA are lying when they say that mental illness is the primary cause of mass shootings. Easy access to deadly weapons is the main cause of mass shootings.
He writes in the Boston Globe that Trump is just echoing the NRA line, at the same time that he is restricting access to treatment for mental illness!
Depending on your definition of “mass shooting,” there have been between 250 and 300 mass shootings in the United States in 2019. We know some of their names: El Paso, Gilroy, Dayton, Virginia Beach. Others pass in relative silence, part of the susurrus of gunfire, sirens, and funeral bells of the American soundscape. They disappear, and government moves on to its next failure.
And once again the National Rifle Association and the politicians it supports are trying to drive the narrative that mental health is the root cause of these shootings. On Aug. 9, in a typically breathtaking spray of self-aggrandizement on the White House lawn, Donald Trump said, “A gun doesn’t pull the trigger — a sick mind pulls the trigger” and “I don’t want crazy people to have guns.” But mental health isn’t an issue in most mass shootings, and this tired trope is the pinnacle of deadly hypocrisy from those intent on avoiding the true causes of preventable gun violence in America.
While it’s true that people with severe mental illness are slightly more likely to have violent tendencies, they are far, far more likely to be the victims of violent attacks . And the rhetoric from the president, his NRA masters, and those who do not want to address the core cause of gun violence — namely the easy availability of guns in America — further stigmatizes and victimizes those with these terrible diseases.
Why then would you work so hard to remove access to effective, affordable mental health?
We throw around terms like “sick mind” and “crazy” far too interchangeably with “mental illness”. Most mentally ill people are not “sick minded” or “crazy” as we typically think of those terms. The majority of mental illness is depression and anxiety related and such people are just as “sane” as anyone else. Even people who are psychotic aren’t usually “sick minded”, they simply lose touch with commonly accepted reality. People in any of those categories make up a very small proportion of shooters.
Most people who are “sick minded” (for instance, Trump), are not mentally ill, unless you consider Axis II personality disorders “mental illnesses”, which they aren’t really. Such people are perfectly “rational” and organized, they’re usually just angry, “victimized” (in their own minds), self-absorbed, controlling, etc.in ways that justify (to them) the harm they inflict on others.
I think Trump is experiencing some dementia and his rages and effusions are something like bipolar temperament. I think he really is mentally ill, in effect. His extreme narcissism also puts him out of touch with reality to a degree. It’s a combination. He is very basically functional, but not in terms of what is required at a minimum from someone in high office.
How do you explain the fact that he’s been prone to rages and effusions as long as the public has known about him (and probably longer)? Has he always had dementia? Or has he always just been an @$$? A$$hatism is not a mental illness.
Temperament, I wrote. That’s virtually since birth.
The dementia: there has been a decline, I think, in his ability to articulate, think and restrain himself.
Okay, but “temperament” is not a mental illness. It’s temperament.
As for dementia, first, you’re not qualified to diagnose that. Second, it’s not exactly a mental illness. More related to brain damage, as it results from the death of brain cells in connection with the aging process.
Albeit, the decline in restraint is difficult to argue, since he’s always been an immature, criminally prone, wanna be crime boss or king of sorts. But, within context, he has shown diminishing ability to control himself. That is, while under high scrutiny and as POTUSSR, etc., and being of more advanced age and so on, versus being young, totally ignorant, hanging with actual criminals, etc.
No, temperament is like permanent wiring. Add circumstances that exacerbate it, and you can have the same effects as bipolar. As far as I’m concerned, that would constitute mental illness. The recommendation would be change not medication.
IMO.
It’s a mix.
The world according to centrist liberals:
Using gay slurs is wrong … unless it’s to say that Trump’s mouth is only good for being Putin’s “cockholster”.
Xenophobia is wrong … unless it’s to constantly call Trump and his administration Russian “assets” or suchlike.
Stigmatizing mental illness is wrong … unless it’s to demean Trump.
Don’t you see that when you stoop to the level of your enemies, you become no better than your enemies?
Despising Trump is not xenophobia.
Describing him and McConnell as Russian assets is not xenophobia.
It is an opinion grounded in fact and protected by the First Amendment.
Bottom line: regardless of technicalities of medical definitions (BTW there are other kinds of definitions), I don’t want to be having anything close to this kind of a debate about a sitting president.
I’m not sure what a centrist liberal is; I could be one. But I’m incensed by the use of gay or mental illness terms as slurs. Hardly a political position, people of all stripes ignorantly add to social stigmas in doing that. However, calling Trump an agent of a foreign govt is not xenophobic, its accusing him of a crime.
I really dont like throwing around these terms. Armchair psychology if anything leans toward letting Trump off the hook for his outrageous behavior. And it imputes all sorts of negative behavior, in many cases unfairly &/or inaccurately, to people who suffer from mental illness. I especially dislike what you say about bipolar disorder. Having had a son who suffered from it – & having spent yrs on a forum for parents whose kids experienced a wide variety of symptoms – & researching it thoroughly – you’re just way off.
There is no bipolar temperament. It’s an organic brain disease resembling epilepsy in some respects. There are some at the mild end who might be observed as experiencing mood swings; perhaps that’s what you’re thinking of. Many more can be summarized as generally high-IQ folks, often w/creative talent, who function well & productively for long periods, interspersed w/breakdown/ hospitalization every few yrs, & w/a lifetime trend that moves toward longer periods of depression – 1/2 attempt suicide at least once, 20% succeed.
I think you can rest easy that Trump suffers from none of the major mental illnesses [schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, major depression]. Clearly he has a volatile temperament & other personality issues that make him ill-suited for high office. Hopefully the takeaway for at least some voters will be the wisdom of nominating presidential candidates who’ve proven thro experience their ability to withstand the pressures of office.
I agree, it is letting him off the hook in a moral sense, but I’m just trying to leave open the assessment of the situation here. I know there is no ‘bipolar temperament disorder’, I’m just trying to describe the behavior. Sorry if I’ve offended. But I don’t think we should be averting our eyes here, in any way whatsoever. To me, saying he’s simply evil or sick carries no real meaning and is unhelpful.
A few diagnoses of Trump, from afar.
https://www.salon.com/2019/05/07/a-yale-psychiatrist-explains-how-donald-trumps-mental-incapacity-was-exposed-by-robert-mueller_partner/
https://www.salon.com/2019/03/04/harvard-psychiatrist-donald-trumps-actions-are-signs-of-a-severe-continuous-mental-disturbance_partner/
https://www.statnews.com/2018/09/25/donald-trump-applied-psychoanalysis-diagnosis/
https://www.salon.com/2019/06/14/yale-psychiatrist-bandy-lee-trumps-mental-health-is-now-a-national-and-global-emergency/
Frankly, I wish I could retract that comment at the top, or rewrite it. I should have written something like this.
I think Trump is experiencing some degree of dementia and his rages and effusions are disturbing, as is his extreme narcissism. Whatever you want to call it, I think there are a mix of mental health issues. He is very basically functional, but not in terms of what is required at a minimum from someone in high office.
Not meant in cruelty or slur.
It’s the reality of the situation I’m worried about.
Bye.
Isn’t hate and racism a form of programmed mental illness?
NO. Those of us with mental illness are not haters or racists, at least in many cases. I’m tired of my true illness being lumped in with that orange creep and others like him. I cannot help my illness. HE CAN HELP HIS RACISM.
Not slurs, serious questions about the impairments in thinking of the current POTUS.
Sorry, that was meant for way down below, as a reply to myself.
So Trump and the Republicans have insulted all Americans by claiming that Americans are far more likely to be mass murdering mentally ill than people from any other country? And Trump and the Republicans claim that the only reason that we have so many more murderous rampages here is because mentally ill Americans are more violent and evil than mentally ill citizens of every other country in the world?
Shame on Trump and the entire Republican Party for insulting America this way. This should be repeated by every Democrat every single day. One message. One talking point. Trump and the Republicans say that mentally ill people in America are much more violent and murderous than the mentally ill citizens of every other country and that’s why they need access to guns whenever they want.
Why do the Republicans hate America so much?
And neither are video games:
Public Citizen, August 12, 2019
Word: Video games and guns
Video game revenue per-person:
-US: $112
-Japan: $149
Guns per 100 people:
-US: 120.5
-Japan: .03
Guns deaths per year:
-US: 40,000+-
Japan: Less than 10
It’s the guns.
Totally agree. Al the other faux excuses for all the shootings are tilting at windmills.
It’s not just guns by themselves. I have several firearms locked up in my safe and without a person, they are not going to shoot anyone.
It’s guns in the hands of people that think like Donald Trump and/or Rush Limbaugh and/or Hannity, et al. … that is the threat.
The title “Mental illness is not the cause of most shootings” is not proven in the studies mentioned here. The VAST numbers (2015) have the killers as psychotic, anti social personality or paranoid with just a few being depressed or having a breakdown due to a situational event. The most recent killers have largely been mentally disturbed and had many red lights. We have laws and background checks now. Some states have strong Red Flag laws that make it difficult for the law abiding to own a gun. Some may think it is simply too expensive or administratively difficult to be a gun owner. Some killers had family reporting them and nothing was done because of being PC or for some stupid political reason (Florida). We have a lot of father less homes, boys who are loners or have no friends or a strong guiding moral influence. This may not be mental illness but it is a call to action. Red flag laws are one step closer to taking guns away from the public. For some, the only thing they want is total confiscation.
Basically, you are defining “mentally ill” as “people who do bad things”, so, hence, all people who do bad things are mentally ill. Convenient, that. If, however, you go by definitions of mental illness as recognized by the mental health profession, no, most people who do bad things are not mentally ill. “Angry” and “entitled” and “self-centered” and “controlling” are not mental illnesses.
As a resident and teacher in Florida, I must say that I am astonished at home many basically feral kids there are in this state–ones with no (or almost no) adult home supervision. It’s really a pretty crazy place.
Personality disorders are just that–personalities. Mental illnesses are NOT personality disorders. Mental illness tendency is inborn. Personality disorders are generally created by environment.
The most obvious driver of mass shootings is the proliferation of technology that makes them possible. Semi-automatic weapons and high-capacity magazines. A “sane” reaction would be to restrict the sale/availability of both, and we should do that, and other things.
Unfortunately there are huge numbers of these weapons (not to mention handguns, which are used to kill far more people than AR-15s) in circulation. They will be around for a long, long time no matter what. So new gun control legislation by itself may not make as much of a dent in mass shootings (if any) as we might hope.
No one is talking about the use of smart safes. They really should. These could make a huge difference.
Here’s my idea. Gun owners are required to keep their guns and ammo in a smart safe subject to initial and then routine inspection. The safe can be opened by one of two means:
The owner calls the local police department, telling them the purpose and duration of the use of the gun(s)–hunting, practice at a range, etc.–and the department gives the owner a one-time code for unlocking it or unlocks it remotely.
The owner opens the safe with an emergency override, which automatically wires the police that there is an emergency at the location.
cx: subject to random, surprise inspection
Not sure I know what a “smart safe” is (a safe that can be unlocked only by biometric code?), but I believe Andrew Yang, for one, is talking about “smart guns.” Of course the mere suggestion of attaching biometrics to firearms will drive the Alex Jones types to new heights of madness (as well as to the gun shops and shows).
That explanation of my idea for the smart safe appears above, Flerp.
The guns shows also must be outlawed, along with all private gun sales.
Banning assault weapons and buying back those in private hands would reduce the likelihood of mass murders. Ownership of weapons of mas murder should be illegal.
Spoken like a sane person, Diane
I agree, and anything that reduces the likelihood is worth pursuing. Compliance rates on voluntary buybacks may be quite low as a practical matter. But again, any reduction in the stockpiles of these weapons would be a good thing. Even if the reality is that we have worked ourselves into a position where mass shootings are going to be with us for a long time to come.
One of the first things that the Trumpus misadministration did was to do away with an Obama-Era rule that tied background checks to having had someone else complete an application for government service due to psychological incapacity. So, Trump himself did away with making mental health checks a part of background checks. Of course he did. If Turnip says it, it’s a lie. This is looking to be tautological, at this point: 2 + 2 = 4; speech + Trump = lie.
I posted this recently. Here it is again. Apologies for the long cut-and-paste, but the link is probably paywalled. Apologies also for the grim tone of this.
Forced confiscation is a very good idea.
I have no problem with it in theory. I don’t think it’s politically possible at this moment. And I would be seriously afraid of what it would look like in practice. Gun nuts went unhinged (and also went to the gun stores and shops) when they thought Obama was “coming for their guns.” What would happen if the government actually was coming for their guns?
We don’t allow private citizens to own nuclear and biological weapons. Why would we allow them to own rifles capable of committing mass murder in 30 to 60 seconds?
On this subject of mental illness: A couple metastudies reported in “The Age of Anxiety? Birth Cohort Change in Anxietyand Neuroticism, 1952-1999,” published in an APA journal, suggest that high-school kids in the 1980s and early ’90s were more stressed out than were hospitalized psychiatric patients of the 1950s. Having taught high-school students recently, I think I can safely report that the problem is, today, even worse. The mental health of teenagers is a real issue, folks. Here in Florida, we have a LOT of basically feral teenagers. And after a year of attending six or seven classes per day with a 3 minute break between each, ending with a barrage of as many as 17 standardized tests, they are extraordinarily stressed out and crazy, especially when facing the prospect that because they haven’t successfully completed a high-stakes standardized testing graduation requirement, their lives might be totally FUBARed. High school was always stressful. It’s now a LOT worse. Thanks, Ed Deformers.
I’m interested in hearing what other teachers think about this. Do you encounter as many neurotic, anxious, totally stressed out, depressed kids as I do? THIS NEEDS ADDRESSING.
It’s only mental illness because it’s a cover up to left leaning anti Semitic behavior done by women that believe they can treat white looking hetro males worse than 3rd class citizens. This is why El Paso TX hasn’t seen the worse. They want death? Then women have all the rights in the world to deny a good looking hard working gentlemen & continue to suppress his civil rights as a straight male until that gentleman snaps & commits the next Oklahoma City Bombing. It’s coming for El Paso TX.
Where did you come from?
He’s likely an Incel….but don’t how he got here?
Jared, years ago, I had a friend who was turning thirty and was convinced that she was never going to meet a guy and have a married life. She had had a few boyfriends, but these relationships never lasted long. She would say things like, “No one is ever going to love me or stay with me.” I explained to her that she had met, become interested in, and been rejected by only about 15 men out of the three and a half BILLION on the planet, and that one could not draw a rational conclusion based on such a small sample. Many young people go through these long periods in which they feel utterly rejected romantically and sexually, and it’s difficult, but this having happened is just not clear evidence that it will continue to happen. There’s someone for everyone. In the meantime, it’s really, really important to find a good therapist to help you through this difficult period. It won’t last. Lives change dramatically, often overnight. But sometimes it takes time, and patience is necessary.
The Onion had THE BEST headline on this issue that I’ve seen. It read something like this:
“Nothing to Be Done about This” Says the Only Country Where This Happens All the Time
I saw that too & I agree, Bob!
It’s just so tragically sickening that this country refuses to do anything about the repeated gun massacres. The gun fetishists claim that guns don’t kill people, the 2nd amendment must not be violated; it’s mental illness, video games and gun free zones that are at fault. They claim that gun laws will not make a difference and are a slippery slope to gun confiscation. Remember how Obama was supposed to have grabbed all the guns——just NRA fear mongering and about as valid as birtherism.
Gun laws don’t make a difference? How many machine gun massacres have there been in the last few years? Private ownership of machine guns made after 1986 is banned by federal law. All pre-1986 automatic weapons must be registered with the ATF and require extensive background checks before private citizens may own them.
It’s extremely difficult and extremely expensive to own a pre-1986 machine gun; for all practical purposes, it’s virtually impossible for an ordinary citizen to own a pre-1986 machine gun. Notice how we don’t have too many machine gun massacres; oops, gun laws do work. Assault rifles and machine guns are banned in NJ, period.
When I pointed out to a pro gun commenter in the NJ Spotlight web site that Japan has strict gun laws and incredibly low gun crimes or murders, just a small fraction of the US. He countered that Japan doesn’t have the 2nd amendment. What a blank stupid response. So what if Japan doesn’t have a 2nd amendment, regulations and the 2nd amendment are not mutually exclusive. States can make laws restricting certain types of guns and ammunition magazines without violating the “holy sacred” 2nd amendment. That’s another big problem, the gun nutters have an extremely distorted and skewed view of the 2nd amendment. They seem to think it guarantees them the right to own any kind of gun at any time and in great quantities. WRONG!
It is obvious that since we know that the problem is with mental illness, we need to
Olsen the control of all weapons. Make anti-tank launchers available to sane people so they can drive about with those things on the back of their pickups rather than wildly flapping flags made of half confederate half American and some snake thing. I would also recommend some Patriot missiles so we can really got some shooting done. A bazooka would so nut take care of a deer, in season, of course.
You forgot miniguns, the kind that fire 6,000 rounds a minute. I want a few, some mounted in my house and one in a van I would buy.
From the Mayo Clinic
“Many people have mental health concerns from time to time. But a mental health concern becomes a mental illness when ongoing signs and symptoms cause frequent stress and affect your ability to function.”
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/mental-illness/symptoms-causes/syc-20374968
From Mental Health America
“There are more than 200 classified forms of mental illness. Some of the more common disorders are depression, bipolar disorder, dementia, schizophrenia and anxiety disorders. Symptoms may include changes in mood, personality, personal habits and/or social withdrawal.”
https://www.mentalhealthamerica.net/
Not slurs, serious questions about the impairments in thinking of the current POTUS.
A few diagnoses of Trump, from afar.
https://www.salon.com/2019/05/07/a-yale-psychiatrist-explains-how-donald-trumps-mental-incapacity-was-exposed-by-robert-mueller_partner/
https://www.salon.com/2019/03/04/harvard-psychiatrist-donald-trumps-actions-are-signs-of-a-severe-continuous-mental-disturbance_partner/
https://www.statnews.com/2018/09/25/donald-trump-applied-psychoanalysis-diagnosis/
Please forgive me for disagreeing about such a tragic subject, but here goes. I’m no legal expert, but I’ve been independently studying the history behind the Constitution for some time, and I am convinced the 2nd Amendment was solely intended to temper the power of the federal government by giving states the right to have their own militaries. It doesn’t matter where they put the commas; it’s more important to read the background and understand the context. That said, I am concerned about how conservative the idea of gun control is. It’s Hobbesian. Hobbes witnessed a bloody revolt and became enamored with the idea of a powerful monarch to provide safety. Conservative Hamiltonianism follows along those lines, providing an extremely powerful central government with a huge standing army for safety.
I tend to align more with liberal thinkers like Locke, Rousseau, and Jefferson. Maybe Bacon. Jeffersonians believed a little bloodshed now and then was preferable to a powerful government and military. Let’s not let the international oligarchy have all the power. Some of these mass shootings could be viewed as lone wolf rebellions against the oligarchy and globalization. “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time…” Don’t fear. Maybe if states had more independence from global free market forces, a lot of Trumpism wouldn’t be happening right now, all over the world. As liberals who want to protect the lives of everyday Americans, especially the poor, let’s keep in mind that poverty is a much more powerful killer than mass shootings, affecting far more lives. Poverty is racist. Let’s prioritize fighting wealth inequality over fighting the stupid NRA. Mass shootings are frightening. Generational wealth is more so. That’s my opinion, and it’s a truly humble one as I fear the reaction it’s going to get. Oh well, time to click ‘post comment’.
“Some of these mass shootings could be viewed as lone wolf rebellions against the oligarchy and globalization.”
I think that is flawed logic and very far fetched when we consider who most if not all of the victims have been.
If one of these crazed shooters went after elected leaders that get a lot of campaign donations from the 1-percent and/or corporations or went after the 1-percent like Gates, DeVos, the Koch brothers, and the Waltons, that would probably be viewed as a lone wolf rebellion against the oligarchs and globalization but people attending music festivals, children going to school, food festivals, people out shopping, eating out, and churches, I do not think so.
The people murdered and wounded so far are also victims of the oligarchy and/or globalization.
My line of thinking is that they were inspired by Trump, who campaigned against globalism, especially immigration.
Agreed, these shootings were not acts of sane and deep thinking.
Is there a difference between someone that is mentally ill vs insane?
Not saying they are acts of deep or sane thinking.
Psychiatry is not the most scientific science. Mentally ill is a more polite description than insane, I suppose. Terrorism doesn’t make logical sense was my point. Targeting innocent people doesn’t make sense. It’s “crazy”. So is voting for trump. There’s a better, not crazy option who also opposes trade deals and Goldman Sachs, who would try to give the 99% back some of the liberties and social welfare that have been taken away by the 1%. You know who I’m talking about. Gun control is part of his platform, but it’s not the focus. His focus is on the billionaires.
Lloyd:
If it so happened that the targets/victims were those you mention in your third paragraph, I think then–& only then–we would see bans on assault weapons & restrictive gun laws, NRA or no NRA.
But, right, just as we’re always discussing, here, what the oligarchy/1% does to “other people’s children,” this is what happens, plainly, to “other people.”
It’s only partly flawed logic, many of the mass shooters aren’t thinking rationally so they don’t take it out on the right targets or use most effective methods, which would be peaceful, or at least it should be peaceful, assuming government responds rationally which they often don’t. Joe Stack was one of these examples with a manifesto that made some very good points but took out his concerns in a irrational suicidal manner.
The two shooters killing cops in 2016 in Dallas & Baton Rouge were other examples, as was Christopher Dorner, 2013, all who had legitimate grievances but took them out in irrational, suicidal and and non-productive manners.
We need to stop pushing them over the edge and government needs to respond to rational peaceful protests which they’re often very slow to do if they do it at all.
These are interestin ideas. I would argue the contrary, however. I believe that history suggests a more dominant role for large companies in a state, not a less dominant role. Imagine West Virginia challenging big coal. When coal was king, it’s interests ruled coal states.
Your premise is correct in a sense. A kinder world would see fewer people who feel hostile toward their competition in the race for a living. Better wages have a way of pulling fringe people into our society, which has the unfortunate habit of granting social status on the basis of money. Insane or not, it strikes me that the perpetrators of these outrages have the mentality of a little minnow in the middle of the sea.
Modern liberalism acepts Hamilton and a big central government presence as the way to protect civil liberties largely because of the civil rights era and its experience with localism. There is a good argument that a nation that cannot protect the civil liberties of its individual citizens from other entities is a government at has strayed from what Hobbs called the Social Contract. The United States has been through times when the federal government was not powerful enough to require the state’s to respect the rights of participants in the body politic. We blame Jackson for the trail of tears when the actuality of the day might have meant genocide for the Cherokee against the backdrop of a civil war, the consequence of which might have been the Balkanization of the country. Localism, rasism, and desire for territory doomed the Cherokee, not a strong central government.
Yes, thank you for your thoughtful response. Liberty and slavery made strange bedfellows.
Liberty and guns also make strange bedfellows. Here slavery and guns are compared.
“That said, I am concerned about how conservative the idea of gun control is. ”
Gun control is not a political idea, but a proven way of controlling gundeaths. If there is no trigger to pull there is no shooting. This is a simple theory which happens to work; just see other countries.
Why then come up with unproven theories involving globalism and whatnot? Try the simple idea and if that doesn’t completely solve the problem, search for more complicated ideas.
The second amendment is part of a very old culture. It has no place in the 21st century. In fact, it’s embarrassing that we still argue over such a relic from 200+ years ago.
Why have political ideas when you can have total safety by restricting rights? Why have ideas? Why not have Big Brother? He makes people safe.
I remember a part of Bowling for Columbine in which Michael Moore suggested that the kids felt part of a violent culture because the U.S. military was shipping arms through the town. The U.S. is violent.
“The U.S. is violent.”
Yeah, the US has the right to be violent, and that right shouldn’t be taken away.
Similary, people have the right to become insanely rich and then screw other people, screw, for example, public education.
As I said, you are advocating outdated ideas. The Word has moved on and so will the US.
In Finland, kids get 15 minutes between classes to hang out, go to the bathroom, have a drink, socialize, prepare psychologically for the next class, whatever. I had a Finnish exchange student a couple years ago who thought that our system was totally insane. She is right about that.
Totally. & I’m betting that today, all over the country, more & more kids are being ID’ed w/ Attention Deficit Disorder w/Hyperactivity.
And being medicated. Or not.
“A gun doesn’t pull the trigger — a sick mind pulls the trigger”
Well, if there is no trigger to pull, there is no mass shooting.
Exactly. This is sometimes called the “single cause fallacy.” Why are there ants on the sidewalk? asks the title of a popular science book. Well, people drop stuff on sidewalks that ants like to eat. And sidewalks provide nice, simple strata for laying down the chemical trails that ants follow. And there are ants EVERYWHERE, and people see them more clearly on the sidewalk. The point you are making, and the most important one in this debate, is that the presence of the gun is the sine qua non. Without the gun that can do a mass shooting (the fellow in Dayton shot 26 people in 32 seconds), the mass shooting does not occur. So, if the desire is to eliminate mass shootings, one must eliminate those guns. But a simple law banning further sales of assault weapons and high-capacity magazines won’t do that because there are already so many of these guns around. Their possession has to be criminalized, there has to be a buy-back program, and there has to be a reward program for people informing authorities that someone is in possession of such a weapon.
If there is no trigger to pull, there is a car to drive into a crowd.
Excellent point!
http://vpc.org/regulating-the-gun-industry/gun-deaths-compared-to-motor-vehicle-deaths/
We are talking about mass shootings not accidents (or even normal murders), Akademos.
Maybe I am the sick one because I’m laughing so loud after reading “normal murders”
When is murder normal?
This really isn’t funny. I should not be laughing, but I can’t stop.
I agree it sounds funny, Lloyd, now that I reread what I wrote. What would be the appropriate adjective then?
In any case, I have no idea why people keep bringing up accident stats when we discuss mass shootings. Why not then bring up the fact that much more people die of heart attacks or cancer than in mass shootings, in murder and in accidents combined?
The relevant statistics to bring up is mass shootings in countries with gun control.
We can similarly bring up stats about shooting deaths in countries with gun control to point out further benefits of gun control.
There is murder … and then there is mass murder as in Hitler’s Final Solution.
Let’s see, in 1983, Reagan declared war on public education, teachers’ unions, and public school teachers when he released the BIG LIE called “A National at Risk”. That was has caused the schools in the United States to become dysfunctional and that dysfunction continues to grow worse at a steady pace as the attacks against them keep coming like terminal cancer before the body dies from it.
“US Mass Shootings, 1982-2019: Data From Mother Jones’ Investigation”
I couldn’t find a total but they are the viticms of mass murder just like the victims that died from Hitler’s Final Soluton.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/
TIME provided the total the the Mother Jones database of mass shootings/murders.
“A database of mass shootings compiled by Mother Jones going back to 1982 counts 114 such incidents in which at least three people were killed, not including the gunman. In that time, 932 people have been killed and 1,406 wounded, including the numbers from the El Paso and Dayton incidents.”
https://time.com/4965022/deadliest-mass-shooting-us-history/
All must be regulated, or better regulated.
Why is then, LTC, that the vast majority of murders and mass mudres are committed by guns and not cars? NRA does the same thing: they come up with “what if” scenarios just to avoid gun control.
As I said, theories don’t matter, only results.
Yes, I know the topic here, and vehicles have been weaponized. Couldn’t find a stat comparison for that, but I’m sure it’s far less often than guns. What else can we do about vehicles? I’m sure there are ways to better regulate, as well as ways to modify the vehicles themselves. And there may be high-tech solutions beyond that.
I drove quite a lot in Europe this summer, and I found that in most, trucks have a separate, usually much lower speed limit from cars and they don’t drive in any of the inner lanes. Interestingly, trucks have low (about 50mi/h )speed limits even in Gemany!
https://www.promods.net/viewtopic.php?t=18254
Also, there is zero tolerance for alcohol in the blood. Any percentage greater than 0 breaks the law.
Every time I venture outside my Manhattan bubble and visit the rest of the country, one of the things that always strikes me is how the roads must be chock full of drunk drivers. The concept of driving to a bar does not exist where I live. If I were a policeman and wanted to hit a DUI quota, I would just park in the lot of any bar on a Friday night and follow the usual suspects. It would be like fishing in a trout pond.
A key difference is we need cars in a way we don’t need guns. So we are willing to accept a fairly large degree of risk — risk of deaths from accidents (which is why we don’t have highway speed limits of 10 mph, although it would surely almost eliminate highway deaths), even risk of death from people who intentionally ram their cars into people. The US economy would not collapse if we banned assault weapons, or even if we banned firearms. It would collapse if we banned motor vehicles.
We also regulate motor vehicles pretty intensely. Seatbelt laws. DUI laws. Licensing requirements, required probationary periods, required demonstrations of knowledge of traffic laws and vehicle operation. Mandatory insurance. We regulate the hell out of motor vehicles because we recognize how dangerous they are.
Meanwhile, guns are actually designed to cause death. (Unless I’ve missed the development and wild market success of non-lethal firearms designed solely to shoot at targets.)
“But people can still drive cars into crowds” is just a silly argument. It’s true, but it’s a silly argument in this context.
Make that far, far, far less often.
We have to deal with the guns.
I add that discussing freedoms on their own is an outdated one. Freedoms cannot be considered alone, they need to paired with their proper control or democracy will fail. In other ords, democracy and freedoms need to be maintained simultaneously, since uncoltrolled freedoms become the freedoms of only a few people, the 1% or less. This is what practice shows.
By the way, talking to Germans in the summer, it became clear that gun control in this country is very similar to speed control on german freeways. There the car lobby, prevents any control of speeds always appealing to “freedom to speed”. If that sounds stupid, think about how freedom to assault weapons may sound to those who haven’t got used to hearing this completely crazy concept.
I just find it irksome that Trump blames the shooters’ mental states and his opponents blame firearms, but no one blames declining wages and pensions. Interesting that neoliberal politicians like billionaire Michael Bloomberg often support gun control almost as fervently as charter schools. I don’t want to be on their side. They always attack the effect instead of the cause: They blame schools instead of poverty. They blame drugs instead of poverty. They blame borrowers instead of bankers. They blame social media users instead of social media companies. They blame a “skills gap” instead of wage suppression. They blame unions instead of wage suppression. And they blame firearms instead of the declining quality of life. They always blame the masses instead of themselves. I believe that if we had a New Deal, a better economic deal, the shootings would subside to pre-1990s levels.
“I believe that if we had a New Deal, a better economic deal, the shootings would subside to pre-1990s levels.”
Notice that you began your sentence “I believe”. Other countries also have economic hardships. Still, no mass shootings, since they have gun control. There is no need to believe this, because it’s a fact.
Gun control now! … And solve more difficult problems as it becomes possible. When people are hungry, you feed them first before you solve the underlying issue with the economy, wealth distribution, etc.
I don’t doubt that.
Short, to the point & brilliant observation, LCT! Thank you!
What struck me initially in LCT’s comment is that once we get the guns locked away, we really have to look out for access to other modes.
Except the other modes don’t work as well as guns. Let’s face it, mass shootings can be done with guns, and mass killings are much less convenient and hence barely done by other means.
Let’s get rid of guns, then work on the underlying cause: uncontrolled, freely flowing capitalism.
The real challenge will begin if the United States ever passes legislation that requires us to lock all of our legal firearms up. Once honest citizens have no fast way to access our legal firearms, we will have to figure out a way to defend ourselves against all of the illegal firearms floating around out there in the dark.
How many of us can afford to buy armored cars?
How many of us can afford to replace all of our house/condo windows with bulletproof ones and bulletproof the exterior walls of our houses?
How many of us can afford to buy and wear bulletproof clothing?
“Statistics on Gun Trafficking & Private Sales” – Giffords Law Center to prevent gun violence.
“Interstate firearms trafficking flourishes, in part, because states regulate firearm sales differently and there is no federal limitation on the number of guns that an individual may purchase at any one time.” …
“Random inspections by ATF have uncovered that a large percentage of dealers violate federal law, and that percentage is growing.
“An estimated 40% of the guns acquired in the U.S. annually come from unlicensed sellers who are not required by federal law to conduct background checks on gun purchasers.”
“Nearly 80% of Mexico’s illegal firearms and most recovered crime guns in major Canadian cities are imported illegally from the U.S.”
https://lawcenter.giffords.org/gun-traffickingprivate-sales-statistics/
The United States firearms/weapons industry is the largest one in the world and even in the worst economic times, it continues to grow and prosper.
If the U.S. ever passes rational firearms legislation, I think it will be too late … like closing the barn doors after all the animals have fled and are long gone.
“Once honest citizens have no fast way to access our legal firearms, we will have to figure out a way to defend ourselves against all of the illegal firearms floating around out there in the dark.”
Except the vast majority of people have relied on professioanls to maintain order; this is why we have the police (and the military). This fact will not change after guns are properly regulated.
Our university’s police was very unhappy when the Tennessee law came out that allows profs carry guns. They said, this makes their work much harder and unpredicable, with all these amateurs carrying guns and potentially trying to handle stressful situations with their own guns.
There is a good reason home schooling is not widepread even where there is a large number of stay-home mothers: people want professionals to hadle education.
I repeat: once we deal with the guns . . .
Yes Akademos, I was talking not about traffic accidents, but about terrorists mowing down crowds in cars and trucks, like in Charlottesville and Nice. 84 people were killed in a couple seconds by a truck. That’s a lot. There are other ways to murder large numbers of innocent people too, if you want to think about it. Terrorists, foreign and domestic, do all the time.
Is it in your imagination that people drive cars into schools to kill kids after their guns are taken away or you have real staitstics backing up what you claim, LCT?
The Bath School disaster, also known as the Bath School massacre, was a series of violent attacks perpetrated by Andrew Kehoe on May 18, 1927, Bath Township, Michigan. The attacks killed 38 elementary school children and six adults, and also injured at least 58 other people. Prior to his timed explosives going off at the school building, Kehoe had murdered his wife and firebombed his farm. Arriving at the site of the school explosion, Kehoe died when he detonated explosives concealed in his truck
I think we can all agree that mass shootings are much more frequent than mass murders by other means. The low likelihood of mass murder by other means such as cars can also be predicted by looking at all of their occurrence during Communism in Euprope where guns were very hard to come by and people were as dissatisfied by the system as people are now in the US.
If a problem is complex, and violence in the US certainly is, you proceed step by step. Dismissing these steps as insufficient or ineffective or stating that “they won’t work” is counterproductive, and in fact is a strategy NRA and other right wing organizations use to prevent progress in gun control, health care, public education.
There has been and will always be mass murders. The only thing we can do is improve the statistics, and (strict) gun control will certainly do that.
Recently, China had one crazy man attack children at one of its grade schools. Since he couldn’t get hold of a firearm, he used a knife.
“BEIJING — A man wielding a knife killed two students and injured two others at an elementary school in central China on Wednesday, according to the local authorities.”
There have been 22 school shootings in the US so far this year. That was reported in July.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/08/us/school-shootings-us-2019-trnd/index.html
“The chart includes only shootings in which one person other than the shooter(s) died. According to the data, there have been a total of 137 fatal school shootings that killed 297 victims since 1980. Elementary schools saw the fewest shootings (17), while high schools saw the most (62) – Reported Dec 19, 2012
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/map_of_the_week/2012/12/sandy_hook_a_chart_of_all_196_fatal_school_shootings_since_1980_map.html
“A series of uncoordinated mass stabbings, hammer attacks, and cleaver attacks in the People’s Republic of China began in March 2010. The spate of attacks left at least 25 dead and some 115 injured.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_(2010%E2%80%9312)
We have a choice: firearms or knives.
To use a knife, the attacker has to be really close. But that crazy dude that shot up that music festival in Las Vegas was shooting from a hotel room several stories up across the street from the festival.
Please take it down a notch folks. I think this was simply a point about other modes, not an argument to divert from focusing on gun control. Gun control is clearly the primary issue, but it exists within contexts. See my comment below about prioritizations. Have a good night.
Agreed. Let’s take it down a notch.
Imagine all of the stressors and what they can do to a perfectly sane, initially mentally healthy person. Negative life events, impending negative life events, sleep deprivation, sequences and spirals of perceived failures, lack of support, humiliation, fear, isolation, untreated anxiety, depression, etc. And add bad ideas/ideologies, identity issues, . . .
Reasonable gun control needs to be part of the solution, of course; but you have to be crazy to do this and the gun control organizers including this guy and Fred Guttenberg who made a similar false claim are making a bad mistake going to opposite extreme of gun rights organizations.
If we want to solve this problem we need to address all contributing factors, including mental illness. One of the leading causes of long term violence is early child abuse. This includes corporal punishment which is still allowed in schools in 19 states. Those states presumably use it more in the home as well; and whether it contributes to mental illness or not they have murder rates for the past 10 or 11 years that are 22% to 31% higher than those banning it.
Diagnosing mental illness is very subjective but there’s plenty of research showing that early child abuse contributes to many metal illnesses as well as teaching violence. Early child abuse in racists families also teaches bigotry as well, which contributes to many of these racists mass shootings.
Poverty, income inequality, bullying an many other factors also contribute to more violence & they all need to be addressed.
Assuming that there’s one and only one contributing cause of violence is incredibly foolish and people in the academic world have to be aware of this, yet that’s the impression the media routinely gives.
Agree. Very silly and ultimately harmful game, find the one key factor, ignore the rest, it’ll fall into place.
Sorry about the grammatical jumble, but you get the point.
Well, the most immediate issue is attaching the word “rights” to assault weapons. Wanna go further? Why should people have the right to guns?
I think your comment about freedoms and limits (so to speak) was really apt. That includes fanning flames on social media, especially from high office, and it extends to responsibilities in general.
There is a hierarchy of issues in terms of importance and immediacy, as well as what can be done immediately, what can be done within reasonable time and what will take a really long time. But we can walk and chew gum at the same time. Things also shouldn’t be pulled out of context or excluded due to some sort of competition over importance. But given the NRA and all, I understand the concern.
Indeed. Peace! 🙂
Well said, Mr. Taylor.
Gun control: Ivanka vs Don Jr
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/ivanka-trump-don-jr-take-opposite-sides-gun-control-debate-2019-8
Philly standoff ended peacefully.
But 6 police officers were injured.
313 shootings until now in 2019, according to a tracker.