Here is the educators’ challenge… and the free press challenge (whatever is left that kochs and right doesn’t own)
Teach red state folks why Russians are the bad guys… why having allies hate the U.S. President is a bad thing… how tariffs will cost them signicantly years ahead. They have no history except for the separate but equal… pre-pollution… bullies are just the way it is 1950s.
The hatred is so deep (read the comments under the articles in any paper… some sick angry people). They have no clue why they should care about Russia, N. Korea…. all they know is Russia beat Hillary.
And their silent gop representatives need to deal with Russia even at the risk of
…gee the president might tweet something mean about me.
Let’s face it, we all know Russia was almost certainly hacking Republicans’ computers and not just Democrats. We can all imagine what they found there. None of it has been released.
It could be that the GOP is far more afraid of Russia than Trump now.
Remember how much Russian money is flowing into the NRA? The Republicans love of assault weapons and bump stocks being completely unregulated has gone beyond sense and into something that is very odd.
You make many (many!) good points but I believe you stray into dangerous rhetorical ground when you write “Teach red state folks why Russians are the bad guys.” Russians are not the bad guys, the Russian government is. I remember being in Europe for extended periods during the nadir of the GW Bush administration and virtually every European differentiated between it and individual Americans. Let’s not stray into Animal Farm-esque simplicity.
Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein: “There is no allegation in this indictment that any American citizen committed a crime. There is no allegation that the conspiracy changed the vote count or affected any election result.” [Emphasis added]
I think that’s more an explanation of the charges, and the burden for conviction, not an exculpation of what’s in the bigger pic. But I doubt anyone will find intentional collusion high up, as Trump, sort of like a sloppy, dumber and more malevolent Cuomo, is very careful about legality and proper channels when it comes to big things, what he perceives (maybe after advisement) as big, what could potentially take him down. But we know he is fundamentally corrupt on multiple levels.
Exactly the point made repeatedly on FOX news and spun to condemn the entire justice department, FBI, and to re-iterate the witch-hunt claims about the Mueller investigations and broadside condemnations of anyone who fails to support Trump.
There is no fun in recognizing the threat to our voting system launched by the Russian Military Intelligence officers named in the indictment, even less in knowing that they cannot be put on trial.
Re: “steal the election” — this is the source of all the disconnect about the Russia hacking story. At least I hope it is. A lot of Trump’s opponents view Russian hacking as the explanation for Hillary’s loss to Trump. Trump thus regards all talk about Russian hacking as an attack on the legitimacy of his presidency. Many on the left also see the Russian hacking story as a way for Hillary supporters to shift the blame for her loss away from policy and onto external forces. So we have a a lot of people on both the left and the right who resist and pooh-pooh the Russian hacking story for rational but ultimately political reasons. Unfortunately that leaves us with an astonishing discourse about whether or not it matters that a foreign government is working, with increasing capabilities, to undermine the integrity of our elections. It’s not good.
Direct Russian interference in the 2016 campaign and/or Trump-associated collusion with the Russians may yet be proved, but as of now are still contentions. This indictment, of people highly unlikely to ever be brought into court and have evidence openly presented against them, along with legal discovery rights that might cast the narrative in a different light, makes for a compelling media narrative, but still is not proof.
That would only come out at trial, a trial that will never take place.
When Mueller’s evidence against these people is presented in a court of law (don’t hold your breath) and we are given explicit and detailed forensic cyber evidence – we still don’t even know if the DNC allowed the FBI to inspect its servers, which it didn’t permit for many months, making claims of “Russian hacking” entirely dependent on a vendor for the DNC ) – then come back and I’ll admit it’s been “proven.”
There were media reports months ago that Mueller was ready to indict Russian individuals/purported state operators on these charges, yet he waited until a few days before Trump was scheduled to meet with Putin. By some mass media alchemy, everyone’s take but Mueller’s is “political.”
Until proof is in hand, rather than widely-broadcast charges that are unlikely to ever be be demonstrated in court, we should recall that Mueller is one of those “serious, straight arrow” types who used the trauma of 9/11 to lie us into invading Iraq: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTDO-KuOGTQ.
Which Mueller should we believe in? The opportunistic prevaricator going along with a predetermined result (a la 2003) or the “ultimate G-Man” (perhaps not such a positive description when you look at the actual history of the FBI) whom deluded liberals think is going to save the Republic, as well delete their complicity in the ongoing debacle that is the US polity?
While Mueller may strike gold with Trump’s shady business dealings, and presumably will indict other associates, Russiagate remains unproven, geo-strategically dangerous and politically impotent as a way to resist Trumpismo.
Every “unit of energy” spent on pushing the Trump-Russia narrative is energy not spent on defeating the Republican/Overclass agenda, for which Trump happens to be just a temporary vehicle. It doesn’t move an inch toward defending public education, providing affordable health care, defending women’s, labor and immigrant rights, dismantling the prison-industrial complex and militarized law enforcement…
It’s a political dead end. That is, unless a new Cold War with Russia, abetted by short term political opportunism, was your motive all along.
When the Watergate burglars broke into the Democratic headquarters, were they conspiring to “steal the election”?
When the Nixon campaign had a slush fund of money to pay for their dirty tricks, were they conspiring to “steal the election”?
When Nixon covered up for the criminals who broke the law to find dirt on the Democrats in order to influence the election, was Nixon conspiring to “steal the election”?
When Nixon beat McGovern by one of the largest margins in recent history — wining 49 states handily AND winning more than 60% of the popular vote to McGovern’s 37.5%, that offered absolute proof that all the crimes committed by people helping Nixon win didn’t make a difference!
Apparently, there seems to be certain posters on here who are insisting that it was the Watergate prosecutor and the hearings that were so harmful to our country, because the American people should have shut up and accept that Nixon won fair and square.
Because if there is no proof that the Watergate break-in and the slush funds and dirty tricks were the sole reason that Nixon won, the American people should have shut up and let those crimes go unpunished.
I don’t understand how anyone can insist that since Nixon won by a huge margin, the entire Watergate investigation and what was revealed was a waste of time. But that is what I am hearing over and over again from some posters and it is truly shocking to hear this.
The claim that breaking the law doesn’t matter UNLESS IT CAN BE PROVEN WITHOUT A DOUBT THAT IT CHANGED THE OUTCOME OF AN ELECTION was never the standard during Watergate.
Somehow in a much closer election, people who should know better say that it is the ONLY standard that matters.
What happened to the left that they have abandoned any principles of believing in fair elections and people not breaking the law to win?
Do you think it is FUN to watch Trump doing things that no Democrat would ever come close to doing — including putting two right wingers on the Supreme Court that will damage our country for a very long time?
Why do you keep talking about “collusion” when that is not the issue? It’s hard to understand why you are posting non-stop the exact same right wing talking points that Trump is saying. The Russians broke the law to help Trump.
For someone who posted non-stop about the corruption of certain Democrats, watching your rabid defense of Trump and his campaign’s on-going actions with regard to Russia is truly the height of hypocrisy.
What is with your double standard? I can understand why Republicans would smear Pete Strzok as corrupt based only on “texts” while claiming that the actions of the Trump campaign were not suspicious at all and until Trump confesses, should not be questioned. But I truly do not understand your own hypocrisy. Maybe if you stopped saying such nasty smears of Democrats, I’d believe you were standing on principle.
But your double standard is making me question what your real agenda is with these posts? What is your agenda on posting here non-stop telling us all that there is absolutely no evidence that the Trump campaign was involved? Why can’t we be allowed to discuss the involvement of Russia without your reminding us that it is all a nothing burger over and over again?
Parents and Teachers – you know all those situations where two kids are alone – on the playground – in the bathroom – backyard – on the bus – and one accuses the other of saying or doing something? You know – the proverbial “s/he said – s/he said.” No other kids – no video – no adults around.
One threatens the other and tells him/her better not say a word to anyone or there will be hell to pay.
One blackmails the other but goes outside and tells everyone they got along famously.
One gives his/her lunch money to the other but goes outside and tells friends s/he kicked the other’s you know what.
One sells out friends so s/he can be a member of the other’s crowd.
And the President is going to meet with Putin ALONE?
A first year teacher knows better than to let two adversarial kids go to the bathroom alone.
Don’t these people read airport novels and watch TV.
president is a flim flam realtor and Putin is bona fide career in the trenches KGB.
But just know that it will be a “show” and it will keep people occupied. Meanwhile, back in DC, Pence and the GOP will be pushing through some kind of agenda that is of major importance to everyone but only benefitting the wealthy or the GOP base. That’s how this all rolls….Trump and his antics are just a distraction.
Well, that was a depressing and enlightening Saturday morning reading. The repeated references to “…a Russian military officer assigned to…” and its variations are enough to immediately cancel the Helsinki “summit.” I can think of no American president in history who would have supinely accepted an attack on the nation that this president*. There is no need to speculate IF this president* colluded as a candidate. He is a treasonous president*.
Also good to know the legally appropriate spelling of F[***]. That will be helpful in my personal correspondence.
Thanks for the link and to the Washington Post.
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Thanks for the link! This is a fascinating read. Wow.
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Here is the educators’ challenge… and the free press challenge (whatever is left that kochs and right doesn’t own)
Teach red state folks why Russians are the bad guys… why having allies hate the U.S. President is a bad thing… how tariffs will cost them signicantly years ahead. They have no history except for the separate but equal… pre-pollution… bullies are just the way it is 1950s.
The hatred is so deep (read the comments under the articles in any paper… some sick angry people). They have no clue why they should care about Russia, N. Korea…. all they know is Russia beat Hillary.
And their silent gop representatives need to deal with Russia even at the risk of
…gee the president might tweet something mean about me.
LikeLike
I’m starting to wonder about the GOP Congress.
Let’s face it, we all know Russia was almost certainly hacking Republicans’ computers and not just Democrats. We can all imagine what they found there. None of it has been released.
It could be that the GOP is far more afraid of Russia than Trump now.
Remember how much Russian money is flowing into the NRA? The Republicans love of assault weapons and bump stocks being completely unregulated has gone beyond sense and into something that is very odd.
LikeLike
You make many (many!) good points but I believe you stray into dangerous rhetorical ground when you write “Teach red state folks why Russians are the bad guys.” Russians are not the bad guys, the Russian government is. I remember being in Europe for extended periods during the nadir of the GW Bush administration and virtually every European differentiated between it and individual Americans. Let’s not stray into Animal Farm-esque simplicity.
LikeLike
Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein: “There is no allegation in this indictment that any American citizen committed a crime. There is no allegation that the conspiracy changed the vote count or affected any election result.” [Emphasis added]
http://time.com/5338451/rod-rosenstein-russian-indictment-transcript/
Sorry to spoil the fun. Still no Trump-Russia collusion to steal the election.
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I think that’s more an explanation of the charges, and the burden for conviction, not an exculpation of what’s in the bigger pic. But I doubt anyone will find intentional collusion high up, as Trump, sort of like a sloppy, dumber and more malevolent Cuomo, is very careful about legality and proper channels when it comes to big things, what he perceives (maybe after advisement) as big, what could potentially take him down. But we know he is fundamentally corrupt on multiple levels.
LikeLike
Exactly the point made repeatedly on FOX news and spun to condemn the entire justice department, FBI, and to re-iterate the witch-hunt claims about the Mueller investigations and broadside condemnations of anyone who fails to support Trump.
There is no fun in recognizing the threat to our voting system launched by the Russian Military Intelligence officers named in the indictment, even less in knowing that they cannot be put on trial.
LikeLike
Re: “steal the election” — this is the source of all the disconnect about the Russia hacking story. At least I hope it is. A lot of Trump’s opponents view Russian hacking as the explanation for Hillary’s loss to Trump. Trump thus regards all talk about Russian hacking as an attack on the legitimacy of his presidency. Many on the left also see the Russian hacking story as a way for Hillary supporters to shift the blame for her loss away from policy and onto external forces. So we have a a lot of people on both the left and the right who resist and pooh-pooh the Russian hacking story for rational but ultimately political reasons. Unfortunately that leaves us with an astonishing discourse about whether or not it matters that a foreign government is working, with increasing capabilities, to undermine the integrity of our elections. It’s not good.
LikeLike
The election was stolen by the Electoral College, Gore v. Bush redux.
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Stealing requires breaking the rules. The Constitution happens.
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Direct Russian interference in the 2016 campaign and/or Trump-associated collusion with the Russians may yet be proved, but as of now are still contentions. This indictment, of people highly unlikely to ever be brought into court and have evidence openly presented against them, along with legal discovery rights that might cast the narrative in a different light, makes for a compelling media narrative, but still is not proof.
That would only come out at trial, a trial that will never take place.
When Mueller’s evidence against these people is presented in a court of law (don’t hold your breath) and we are given explicit and detailed forensic cyber evidence – we still don’t even know if the DNC allowed the FBI to inspect its servers, which it didn’t permit for many months, making claims of “Russian hacking” entirely dependent on a vendor for the DNC ) – then come back and I’ll admit it’s been “proven.”
There were media reports months ago that Mueller was ready to indict Russian individuals/purported state operators on these charges, yet he waited until a few days before Trump was scheduled to meet with Putin. By some mass media alchemy, everyone’s take but Mueller’s is “political.”
Until proof is in hand, rather than widely-broadcast charges that are unlikely to ever be be demonstrated in court, we should recall that Mueller is one of those “serious, straight arrow” types who used the trauma of 9/11 to lie us into invading Iraq: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTDO-KuOGTQ.
Which Mueller should we believe in? The opportunistic prevaricator going along with a predetermined result (a la 2003) or the “ultimate G-Man” (perhaps not such a positive description when you look at the actual history of the FBI) whom deluded liberals think is going to save the Republic, as well delete their complicity in the ongoing debacle that is the US polity?
While Mueller may strike gold with Trump’s shady business dealings, and presumably will indict other associates, Russiagate remains unproven, geo-strategically dangerous and politically impotent as a way to resist Trumpismo.
Every “unit of energy” spent on pushing the Trump-Russia narrative is energy not spent on defeating the Republican/Overclass agenda, for which Trump happens to be just a temporary vehicle. It doesn’t move an inch toward defending public education, providing affordable health care, defending women’s, labor and immigrant rights, dismantling the prison-industrial complex and militarized law enforcement…
It’s a political dead end. That is, unless a new Cold War with Russia, abetted by short term political opportunism, was your motive all along.
LikeLike
When the Watergate burglars broke into the Democratic headquarters, were they conspiring to “steal the election”?
When the Nixon campaign had a slush fund of money to pay for their dirty tricks, were they conspiring to “steal the election”?
When Nixon covered up for the criminals who broke the law to find dirt on the Democrats in order to influence the election, was Nixon conspiring to “steal the election”?
When Nixon beat McGovern by one of the largest margins in recent history — wining 49 states handily AND winning more than 60% of the popular vote to McGovern’s 37.5%, that offered absolute proof that all the crimes committed by people helping Nixon win didn’t make a difference!
Apparently, there seems to be certain posters on here who are insisting that it was the Watergate prosecutor and the hearings that were so harmful to our country, because the American people should have shut up and accept that Nixon won fair and square.
Because if there is no proof that the Watergate break-in and the slush funds and dirty tricks were the sole reason that Nixon won, the American people should have shut up and let those crimes go unpunished.
I don’t understand how anyone can insist that since Nixon won by a huge margin, the entire Watergate investigation and what was revealed was a waste of time. But that is what I am hearing over and over again from some posters and it is truly shocking to hear this.
The claim that breaking the law doesn’t matter UNLESS IT CAN BE PROVEN WITHOUT A DOUBT THAT IT CHANGED THE OUTCOME OF AN ELECTION was never the standard during Watergate.
Somehow in a much closer election, people who should know better say that it is the ONLY standard that matters.
What happened to the left that they have abandoned any principles of believing in fair elections and people not breaking the law to win?
LikeLike
“spoil the fun”?
Do you think it is FUN to watch Trump doing things that no Democrat would ever come close to doing — including putting two right wingers on the Supreme Court that will damage our country for a very long time?
Why do you keep talking about “collusion” when that is not the issue? It’s hard to understand why you are posting non-stop the exact same right wing talking points that Trump is saying. The Russians broke the law to help Trump.
For someone who posted non-stop about the corruption of certain Democrats, watching your rabid defense of Trump and his campaign’s on-going actions with regard to Russia is truly the height of hypocrisy.
What is with your double standard? I can understand why Republicans would smear Pete Strzok as corrupt based only on “texts” while claiming that the actions of the Trump campaign were not suspicious at all and until Trump confesses, should not be questioned. But I truly do not understand your own hypocrisy. Maybe if you stopped saying such nasty smears of Democrats, I’d believe you were standing on principle.
But your double standard is making me question what your real agenda is with these posts? What is your agenda on posting here non-stop telling us all that there is absolutely no evidence that the Trump campaign was involved? Why can’t we be allowed to discuss the involvement of Russia without your reminding us that it is all a nothing burger over and over again?
LikeLike
Parents and Teachers – you know all those situations where two kids are alone – on the playground – in the bathroom – backyard – on the bus – and one accuses the other of saying or doing something? You know – the proverbial “s/he said – s/he said.” No other kids – no video – no adults around.
One threatens the other and tells him/her better not say a word to anyone or there will be hell to pay.
One blackmails the other but goes outside and tells everyone they got along famously.
One gives his/her lunch money to the other but goes outside and tells friends s/he kicked the other’s you know what.
One sells out friends so s/he can be a member of the other’s crowd.
And the President is going to meet with Putin ALONE?
A first year teacher knows better than to let two adversarial kids go to the bathroom alone.
Don’t these people read airport novels and watch TV.
president is a flim flam realtor and Putin is bona fide career in the trenches KGB.
Reality show host v. Spy!
Yeh – that will go well for U.S.
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Indeed. There’s a certain level of corruption in setting it up and allowing it to happen.
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But just know that it will be a “show” and it will keep people occupied. Meanwhile, back in DC, Pence and the GOP will be pushing through some kind of agenda that is of major importance to everyone but only benefitting the wealthy or the GOP base. That’s how this all rolls….Trump and his antics are just a distraction.
LikeLike
Well, that was a depressing and enlightening Saturday morning reading. The repeated references to “…a Russian military officer assigned to…” and its variations are enough to immediately cancel the Helsinki “summit.” I can think of no American president in history who would have supinely accepted an attack on the nation that this president*. There is no need to speculate IF this president* colluded as a candidate. He is a treasonous president*.
Also good to know the legally appropriate spelling of F[***]. That will be helpful in my personal correspondence.
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