Some dissents turn out to be more important lodestars in the Law than the majority opinion. Often the majority is wrong, as it was in the Dred Scott case, Plessy v. Ferguson, and Korematsu.
Please read Justice Sonia Sotomayor’s dissent on the Muslim Travel Ban Case (Trump v. Hawaii), joined by Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg. The Trump administration, in its third iteration, added North Korea and Venezuela, to five majority-Muslim nation’s in a thinly disguised effort to hide its religious bias. There is no migration from North Korea. Muslim countries where the Trump organization does business were curiously excluded from the Travel Ban.
JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR, with whom JUSTICE GINSBURG joins, dissenting.
The United States of America is a Nation built upon the promise of religious liberty. Our Founders honored that core promise by embedding the principle of religious neutrality in the First Amendment. The Court’s decision today fails to safeguard that fundamental principle. It leaves undisturbed a policy first advertised openly and unequivocally as a “total and complete shutdown of Mus lims entering the United States” because the policy now masquerades behind a façade of national-security con cerns. But this repackaging does little to cleanse Presi dential Proclamation No. 9645 of the appearance of dis crimination that the President’s words have created. Based on the evidence in the record, a reasonable observer would conclude that the Proclamation was motivated by anti-Muslim animus. That alone suffices to show that plaintiffs are likely to succeed on the merits of their Estab lishment Clause claim. The majority holds otherwise by ignoring the facts, misconstruing our legal precedent, and turning a blind eye to the pain and suffering the Procla mation inflicts upon countless families and individuals, many of whom are United States citizens. Because that troubling result runs contrary to the Constitution and our precedent, I dissent.
Plaintiffs challenge the Proclamation on various grounds, both statutory and constitutional. Ordinarily, when a case can be decided on purely statutory grounds, we strive to follow a “prudential rule of avoiding constitu tional questions.” Zobrest v. Catalina Foothills School Dist., 509 U. S. 1, 8 (1993). But that rule of thumb is far from categorical, and it has limited application where, as here, the constitutional question proves far simpler than the statutory one. Whatever the merits of plaintiffs’ com plex statutory claims, the Proclamation must be enjoined for a more fundamental reason: It runs afoul of the Estab lishment Clause’s guarantee of religious neutrality.
The Establishment Clause forbids government policies “respecting an establishment of religion.” U. S. Const., Amdt. 1. The “clearest command” of the Establishment Clause is that the Government cannot favor or disfavor one religion over another. Larson v. Valente, 456 U. S. 228, 244 (1982); Church of Lukumi Babalu Aye, Inc. v. Hialeah, 508 U. S. 520, 532 (1993) (“[T]he First Amend ment forbids an official purpose to disapprove of a particu lar religion”); Edwards v. Aguillard, 482 U. S. 578, 593 (1987) (“The Establishment Clause . . . forbids alike the preference of a religious doctrine or the prohibition of theory which is deemed antagonistic to a particular dogma” (internal quotation marks omitted)); Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U. S. 668, 673 (1984) (noting that the Establishment Clause “forbids hostility toward any [religion],” because “such hostility would bring us into ‘war with our national tradition as embodied in the First Amendmen[t]’”); Epper son v. Arkansas, 393 U. S. 97, 106 (1968) (“[T]he State may not adopt programs or practices . . . which aid or oppose any religion. This prohibition is absolute” (citation and internal quotation marks omitted)). Consistent with that clear command, this Court has long acknowledged that governmental actions that favor one religion “inevi tabl[y]” foster “the hatred, disrespect and even contempt of those who [hold] contrary beliefs.” Engel v. Vitale, 370 U. S. 421, 431 (1962). That is so, this Court has held, because such acts send messages to members of minority faiths “‘that they are outsiders, not full members of the political community.’ ” Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe, 530 U. S. 290, 309 (2000). To guard against this serious harm, the Framers mandated a strict “principle of denominational neutrality.” Larson, 456 U. S., at 246; Board of Ed. of Kiryas Joel Village School Dist. v. Grumet, 512 U. S. 687, 703 (1994) (recognizing the role of courts in “safeguarding a principle at the heart of the Establish ment Clause, that government should not prefer one reli gion to another, or religion to irreligion”).
“When the government acts with the ostensible and predominant purpose” of disfavoring a particular religion, “it violates that central Establishment Clause value of official religious neutrality, there being no neutrality when the government’s ostensible object is to take sides.” McCreary County v. American Civil Liberties Union of Ky., 545 U. S. 844, 860 (2005). To determine whether plaintiffs have proved an Establishment Clause violation, the Court asks whether a reasonable observer would view the gov ernment action as enacted for the purpose of disfavoring a religion. See id., at 862, 866; accord, Town of Greece v. Galloway, 572 U. S. ___, ___ (2014) (plurality opinion) (slip op., at 19).
In answering that question, this Court has generally considered the text of the government policy, its operation, and any available evidence regarding “the historical back ground of the decision under challenge, the specific series of events leading to the enactment or official policy in question, and the legislative or administrative history, including contemporaneous statements made by” the decisionmaker. Lukumi, 508 U. S., at 540 (opinion of KENNEDY, J.); McCreary, 545 U. S., at 862 (courts must evaluate “text, legislative history, and implementation . . . , or comparable official act” (internal quotation marks omitted)). At the same time, however, courts must take care not to engage in “any judicial psychoanalysis of a drafter’s heart of hearts.” Id., at 862.
Although the majority briefly recounts a few of the statements and background events that form the basis of plaintiffs’ constitutional challenge, ante, at 27–28, that highly abridged account does not tell even half of the story. See Brief for The Roderick & Solange MacArthur Justice Center as Amicus Curiae 5–31 (outlining President Trump’s public statements expressing animus toward Islam). The full record paints a far more harrowing pic ture, from which a reasonable observer would readily conclude that the Proclamation was motivated by hostility and animus toward the Muslim faith.
During his Presidential campaign, then-candidate Don ald Trump pledged that, if elected, he would ban Muslims from entering the United States. Specifically, on Decem ber 7, 2015, he issued a formal statement “calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States.” App. 119. That statement, which re mained on his campaign website until May 2017 (several months into his Presidency), read in full:
“Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country’s representatives can figure out what is going on. According to Pew Research, among others, there is great hatred towards Americans by large segments of the Muslim population. Most recently, a poll from the Center for Security Policy released data showing ‘25% of those polled agreed that violence against Americans here in the United States is justi fied as a part of the global jihad’ and 51% of those polled ‘agreed that Muslims in America should have the choice of being governed according to Shariah.’ Shariah authorizes such atrocities as murder against nonbelievers who won’t convert, beheadings and more unthinkable acts that pose great harm to Americans, especially women.
“Mr. Trum[p] stated, ‘Without looking at the vari ous polling data, it is obvious to anybody the hatred is beyond comprehension. Where this hatred comes from and why we will have to determine. Until we are able to determine and understand this problem and the dangerous threat it poses, our country cannot be the victims of the horrendous attacks by people that believe only in Jihad, and have no sense of reason or respect of human life. If I win the election for Presi dent, we are going to Make America Great Again.’— Donald J. Trump.” Id., at 158; see also id., at 130– 131.
On December 8, 2015, Trump justified his proposal during a television interview by noting that President Franklin D. Roosevelt “did the same thing” with respect to the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II. Id., at 120. In January 2016, during a Republican primary debate, Trump was asked whether he wanted to “rethink [his] position” on “banning Muslims from enter ing the country.” Ibid. He answered, “No.” Ibid. A month later, at a rally in South Carolina, Trump told an apocryphal story about United States General John J. Pershing killing a large group of Muslim insurgents in the Philippines with bullets dipped in pigs’ blood in the early 1900’s. Id., at 163–164. In March 2016, he expressed his belief that “Islam hates us. . . . [W]e can’t allow people coming into this country who have this hatred of the United States . . . [a]nd of people that are not Muslim.” Id., at 120–121. That same month, Trump asserted that “[w]e’re having problems with the Muslims, and we’re having problems with Muslims coming into the country.” Id., at 121. He therefore called for surveillance of mosques in the United States, blaming terrorist attacks on Muslims’ lack of “assimilation” and their commitment to “sharia law.” Ibid.; id., at 164. A day later, he opined that Muslims “do not respect us at all” and “don’t respect a lot of the things that are happening throughout not only our country, but they don’t respect other things.” Ibid.
As Trump’s presidential campaign progressed, he began to describe his policy proposal in slightly different terms. In June 2016, for instance, he characterized the policy proposal as a suspension of immigration from countries “where there’s a proven history of terrorism.” Id., at 121. He also described the proposal as rooted in the need to stop “importing radical Islamic terrorism to the West through a failed immigration system.” Id., at 121–122. Asked in July 2016 whether he was “pull[ing] back from” his pledged Muslim ban, Trump responded, “I actually don’t think it’s a rollback. In fact, you could say it’s an expansion.” Id., at 122–123. He then explained that he used different terminology because “[p]eople were so upset when [he] used the word Muslim.” Id., at 123.
A month before the 2016 election, Trump reiterated that his proposed “Muslim ban” had “morphed into a[n] ex treme vetting from certain areas of the world.” Ibid. Then, on December 21, 2016, President-elect Trump was asked whether he would “rethink” his previous “plans to create a Muslim registry or ban Muslim immigration.” Ibid. He replied: “You know my plans. All along, I’ve proven to be right.” Ibid.
On January 27, 2017, one week after taking office, President Trump signed Executive Order No. 13769, 82 Fed. Reg. 8977 (2017) (EO–1), entitled “Protecting the Nation From Foreign Terrorist Entry Into the United States.” As he signed it, President Trump read the title, looked up, and said “We all know what that means.” App. 124. That same day, President Trump explained to the media that, under EO–1, Christians would be given prior- ity for entry as refugees into the United States. In particu lar, he bemoaned the fact that in the past, “[i]f you were a Muslim [refugee from Syria] you could come in, but if you were a Christian, it was almost impossible.” Id., at 125. Considering that past policy “very unfair,” President Trump explained that EO–1 was designed “to help” the Christians in Syria. Ibid. The following day, one of Presi dent Trump’s key advisers candidly drew the connection between EO–1 and the “Muslim ban” that the President had pledged to implement if elected. Ibid. According to that adviser, “[W]hen [Donald Trump] first announced it, he said, ‘Muslim ban.’ He called me up. He said, ‘Put a commission together. Show me the right way to do it legally.’” Ibid.
On February 3, 2017, the United States District Court for the Western District of Washington enjoined the en forcement of EO–1. See Washington v. Trump, 2017 WL 462040, *3. The Ninth Circuit denied the Government’s request to stay that injunction. Washington v. Trump, 847 F. 3d 1151, 1169 (2017) (per curiam). Rather than appeal the Ninth Circuit’s decision, the Government declined to continue defending EO–1 in court and instead announced that the President intended to issue a new executive order to replace EO–1.
On March 6, 2017, President Trump issued that new executive order, which, like its predecessor, imposed tem porary entry and refugee bans. See Exec. Order No. 13,780, 82 Fed. Reg. 13209 (EO–2). One of the President’s senior advisers publicly explained that EO–2 would “have the same basic policy outcome” as EO–1, and that any changes would address “very technical issues that were brought up by the court.” App. 127. After EO–2 was issued, the White House Press Secretary told reporters that, by issuing EO–2, President Trump “continue[d] to deliver on . . . his most significant campaign promises.” Id., at 130. That statement was consistent with President Trump’s own declaration that “I keep my campaign prom ises, and our citizens will be very happy when they see the result.” Id., at 127–128.
Before EO–2 took effect, federal District Courts in Ha waii and Maryland enjoined the order’s travel and refugee bans. See Hawaii v. Trump, 245 F. Supp. 3d 1227, 1239 (Haw. 2017); International Refugee Assistance Project (IRAP) v. Trump, 241 F. Supp. 3d 539, 566 (Md. 2017). The Fourth and Ninth Circuits upheld those injunctions in substantial part. IRAP v. Trump, 857 F. 3d 554, 606 (CA4 2017) (en banc); Hawaii v. Trump, 859 F. 3d 741, 789 (CA9 2017) (per curiam). In June 2017, this Court granted the Government’s petition for certiorari and issued a per curiam opinion partially staying the District Courts’ in junctions pending further review. In particular, the Court allowed EO–2’s travel ban to take effect except as to “for eign nationals who have a credible claim of a bona fide relationship with a person or entity in the United States.” Trump v. IRAP, 582 U. S. ___, ___ (2017) (slip op., at 12).
While litigation over EO–2 was ongoing, President Trump repeatedly made statements alluding to a desire to keep Muslims out of the country. For instance, he said at a rally of his supporters that EO–2 was just a “watered down version of the first one” and had been “tailor[ed]” at the behest of “the lawyers.” App. 131. He further added that he would prefer “to go back to the first [executive order] and go all the way” and reiterated his belief that it was “very hard” for Muslims to assimilate into Western culture. Id., at 131–132. During a rally in April 2017, President Trump recited the lyrics to a song called “The Snake,” a song about a woman who nurses a sick snake back to health but then is attacked by the snake, as a warning about Syrian refugees entering the country. Id., at 132, 163. And in June 2017, the President stated on Twitter that the Justice Department had submitted a “watered down, politically correct version” of the “original Travel Ban” “to S[upreme] C[ourt].”1 Id., at 132. The President went on to tweet: “People, the lawyers and the courts can call it whatever they want, but I am calling it what we need and what it is, a TRAVEL BAN!” Id., at 132–133. He added: “That’s right, we need a TRAVEL BAN for certain DANGEROUS countries, not some politi cally correct term that won’t help us protect our people!” Id., at 133. Then, on August 17, 2017, President Trump issued yet another tweet about Islam, once more referenc ing the story about General Pershing’s massacre of Mus lims in the Philippines: “Study what General Pershing . . . did to terrorists when caught. There was no more Radical Islamic Terror for 35 years!” IRAP v. Trump, 883 F. 3d 233, 267 (CA4 2018) (IRAP II) (en banc) (alterations in original).
In September 2017, President Trump tweeted that “[t]he travel ban into the United States should be far larger, tougher and more specific—but stupidly, that would not be politically correct!” App. 133. Later that month, on Sep tember 24, 2017, President Trump issued Presidential Proclamation No. 9645, 82 Fed. Reg. 45161 (2017) (Proc lamation), which restricts entry of certain nationals from six Muslim-majority countries. On November 29, 2017, President Trump “retweeted” three anti-Muslim videos, entitled “Muslim Destroys a Statue of Virgin Mary!”, “Islamist mob pushes teenage boy off roof and beats him to death!”, and “Muslim migrant beats up Dutch boy on crutches!”2 IRAP II, 883 F. 3d, at 267. Those videos were initially tweeted by a British political party whose mission is to oppose “all alien and destructive politic[al] or reli gious doctrines, including . . . Islam.” Ibid. When asked about these videos, the White House Deputy Press Secre tary connected them to the Proclamation, responding that the “President has been talking about these security is sues for years now, from the campaign trail to the White House” and “has addressed these issues with the travel order that he issued earlier this year and the companion proclamation.” Ibid.
As the majority correctly notes, “the issue before us is not whether to denounce” these offensive statements. Ante, at 29. Rather, the dispositive and narrow question here is whether a reasonable observer, presented with all “openly available data,” the text and “historical context” of the Proclamation, and the “specific sequence of events” leading to it, would conclude that the primary purpose of the Proclamation is to disfavor Islam and its adherents by excluding them from the country. See McCreary, 545 U. S., at 862–863. The answer is unquestionably yes. [Footnote: 2 The content of these videos is highly inflammatory, and their titles are arguably misleading. For instance, the person depicted in the video entitled “Muslim migrant beats up Dutch boy on crutches!” was report edly not a “migrant,” and his religion is not publicly known. See Brief for Plaintiffs in International Refugee Assistance Project v. Trump as Amici Curiae 12, n. 4; P. Baker & E. Sullivan, Trump Shares Inflam matory Anti-Muslim Videos, and Britain’s Leader Condemns Them, N. Y. Times, Nov. 29, 2017 (“[A]ccording to local officials, both boys are Dutch”), https: // http://www.nytimes.com / 2017 / 11 / 29 / us / politics / trump anti-muslim-videos-jayda-fransen.html (all Internet materials as last visited June 25, 2018).]
Taking all the relevant evidence together, a reasonable observer would conclude that the Proclamation was driven primarily by anti-Muslim animus, rather than by the Government’s asserted national-security justifications. Even before being sworn into office, then-candidate Trump stated that “Islam hates us,” App. 399, warned that “[w]e’re having problems with the Muslims, and we’re having problems with Muslims coming into the country,” id., at 121, promised to enact a “total and complete shut down of Muslims entering the United States,” id., at 119, and instructed one of his advisers to find a “lega[l]” way to enact a Muslim ban, id., at 125.3 The President continued to make similar statements well after his inauguration, as detailed above, see supra, at 6–10.
[Footnote: 3The Government urges us to disregard the President’s campaign statements. Brief for Petitioners 66–67. But nothing in our precedent supports that blinkered approach. To the contrary, courts must con sider “the historical background of the decision under challenge, the specific series of events leading to the enactment or official policy in question, and the legislative or administrative history.” Church of Lukumi Babalu Aye, Inc. v. Hialeah, 508 U. S. 520, 540 (1993) (opinion of KENNEDY, J.). Moreover, President Trump and his advisers have repeatedly acknowledged that the Proclamation and its predecessors are an outgrowth of the President’s campaign statements. For example, just last November, the Deputy White House Press Secretary reminded the media that the Proclamation addresses “issues” the President has been talking about “for years,” including on “the cam paign trail.” IRAP II, 883 F. 3d 233, 267 (CA4 2018). In any case, as the Fourth Circuit correctly recognized, even without relying on any of the President’s campaign statements, a reasonable observer would conclude that the Proclamation was enacted for the impermissible purpose of disfavoring Muslims. Id., at 266, 268.]
[Footnote: 4At oral argument, the Solicitor General asserted that President Trump “made crystal-clear on September 25 that he had no intention of imposing the Muslim ban” and “has praised Islam as one of the great countries [sic] of the world.” Tr. of Oral Arg. 81. Because the record contained no evidence of any such statement made on September 25th, however, the Solicitor General clarified after oral argument that he actually intended to refer to President Trump’s statement during a television interview on January 25, 2017. Letter from N. Francisco, Solicitor General, to S. Harris, Clerk of Court (May 1, 2018); Reply Brief 28, n. 8. During that interview, the President was asked whether EO–1 was “the Muslim ban,” and answered, “no it’s not the Muslim ban.” See Transcript: ABC News anchor David Muir interviews Presi dent Trump, ABC News, Jan. 25, 2017, http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/ transcript-abc-news-anchor-david-muir-interviews-president / story ? id = 45047602. But that lone assertion hardly qualifies as a disavowal of the President’s comments about Islam—some of which were spoken after January 25, 2017. Moreover, it strains credulity to say that President Trump’s January 25th statement makes “crystal-clear” that he never intended to impose a Muslim ban given that, until May 2017, the President’s website displayed the statement regarding his cam paign promise to ban Muslims from entering the country.]
Moreover, despite several opportunities to do so, Presi dent Trump has never disavowed any of his prior state ments about Islam.4 Instead, he has continued to make remarks that a reasonable observer would view as an unrelenting attack on the Muslim religion and its follow ers. Given President Trump’s failure to correct the rea sonable perception of his apparent hostility toward the Islamic faith, it is unsurprising that the President’s law yers have, at every step in the lower courts, failed in their attempts to launder the Proclamation of its discriminatory taint. See United States v. Fordice, 505 U. S. 717, 746– 747 (1992) (“[G]iven an initially tainted policy, it is emi nently reasonable to make the [Government] bear the risk of nonpersuasion with respect to intent at some future time, both because the [Government] has created the dispute through its own prior unlawful conduct, and be cause discriminatory intent does tend to persist through time” (citation omitted)). Notably, the Court recently found less pervasive official expressions of hostility and the failure to disavow them to be constitutionally signifi cant. Cf. Masterpiece Cakeshop, Ltd. v. Colorado Civil Rights Comm’n, 584 U. S. ___, ___ (2018) (slip op., at 18) (“The official expressions of hostility to religion in some of the commissioners’ comments—comments that were not disavowed at the Commission or by the State at any point in the proceedings that led to the affirmance of the order—were inconsistent with what the Free Exercise Clause requires”). It should find the same here.
Ultimately, what began as a policy explicitly “calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States” has since morphed into a “Proclamation” putatively based on national-security concerns. But this new window dressing cannot conceal an unassailable fact: the words of the President and his advisers create the strong perception that the Proclamation is contaminated by impermissible discriminatory animus against Islam and its followers.
Rather than defend the President’s problematic statements, the Government urges this Court to set them aside and defer to the President on issues related to immigra tion and national security. The majority accepts that invitation and incorrectly applies a watered-down legal standard in an effort to short circuit plaintiffs’ Establishment Clause claim.
……..
I am not copying the balance of the decision, as I have to cut and paste one paragraph at a time, which is very tedious. To read the rest, go to the decision itself.
Click to access 17-965_h315.pdf
But here is the concluding section. I fully expect Justice Sotomayer’s Dissent to be read in generations to come as an affirmation of basic American principles, and the majority decision will be reviled as an e er is in bigotry and raw political power, like the majority decisions in Dred Svott, Plessey v Ferguson, and Korematsu.
Justice Sotomayor concludes:
The First Amendment stands as a bulwark against official religious prejudice and embodies our Nation’s deep commitment to religious plurality and tolerance. That constitutional promise is why, “[f]or centuries now, people have come to this country from every corner of the world to share in the blessing of religious freedom.” Town of Greece v. Galloway, 572 U. S., at ___ (KAGAN, J., dissent ing) (slip op., at 1). Instead of vindicating those principles, today’s decision tosses them aside. In holding that the First Amendment gives way to an executive policy that a reasonable observer would view as motivated by animus against Muslims, the majority opinion upends this Court’s precedent, repeats tragic mistakes of the past, and denies countless individuals the fundamental right of religious liberty.
Just weeks ago, the Court rendered its decision in Mas terpiece Cakeshop, 584 U. S. ___, which applied the bed rock principles of religious neutrality and tolerance in considering a First Amendment challenge to government action. See id., at ___ (slip op., at 17) (“The Constitution ‘commits government itself to religious tolerance, and upon even slight suspicion that proposals for state inter vention stem from animosity to religion or distrust of its practices, all officials must pause to remember their own high duty to the Constitution and to the rights it secures’” (quoting Lukumi, 508 U. S., at 547)); Masterpiece, 584 U.S., at ___ (KAGAN, J., concurring) (slip op., at 1) (“[S]tate actors cannot show hostility to religious views; rather, they must give those views ‘neutral and respectful consideration’ ”). Those principles should apply equally here. In both instances, the question is whether a gov ernment actor exhibited tolerance and neutrality in reach ing a decision that affects individuals’ fundamental reli gious freedom. But unlike in Masterpiece, where a state civil rights commission was found to have acted without “the neutrality that the Free Exercise Clause requires,” id., at ___ (slip op., at 17), the government actors in this case will not be held accountable for breaching the First Amendment’s guarantee of religious neutrality and toler ance. Unlike in Masterpiece, where the majority consid ered the state commissioners’ statements about religion to be persuasive evidence of unconstitutional government action, id., at ___–___ (slip op., at 12–14), the majority here completely sets aside the President’s charged state ments about Muslims as irrelevant. That holding erodes the foundational principles of religious tolerance that the Court elsewhere has so emphatically protected, and it tells members of minority religions in our country “‘that they are outsiders, not full members of the political commu nity.’ ” Santa Fe, 530 U. S., at 309.
Today’s holding is all the more troubling given the stark parallels between the reasoning of this case and that of Korematsu v. United States, 323 U. S. 214 (1944). See Brief for Japanese American Citizens League as Amicus Curiae. In Korematsu, the Court gave “a pass [to] an odious, gravely injurious racial classification” authorized by an executive order. Adarand Constructors, Inc. v. Peña, 515 U. S. 200, 275 (1995) (GINSBURG, J., dissenting). As here, the Government invoked an ill-defined national- security threat to justify an exclusionary policy of sweep ing proportion. See Brief for Japanese American Citizens League as Amicus Curiae 12–14. As here, the exclusion order was rooted in dangerous stereotypes about, inter alia, a particular group’s supposed inability to assimilate and desire to harm the United States. See Korematsu, 323 U. S., at 236–240 (Murphy, J., dissenting). As here, the Government was unwilling to reveal its own intelligence agencies’ views of the alleged security concerns to the very citizens it purported to protect. Compare Korematsu v. United States, 584 F. Supp. 1406, 1418–1419 (ND Cal. 1984) (discussing information the Government knowingly omitted from report presented to the courts justifying the executive order); Brief for Japanese American Citizens League as Amicus Curiae 17–19, with IRAP II, 883 F. 3d, at 268; Brief for Karen Korematsu et al. as Amici Curiae 35–36, and n. 5 (noting that the Government “has gone to great lengths to shield [the Secretary of Homeland Securi ty’s] report from view”). And as here, there was strong evidence that impermissible hostility and animus motivated the Government’s policy.
Although a majority of the Court in Korematsu was willing to uphold the Government’s actions based on a barren invocation of national security, dissenting Justices warned of that decision’s harm to our constitutional fabric. Justice Murphy recognized that there is a need for great deference to the Executive Branch in the context of na tional security, but cautioned that “it is essential that there be definite limits to [the government’s] discretion,” as “[i]ndividuals must not be left impoverished of their constitutional rights on a plea of military necessity that has neither substance nor support.” 323 U. S., at 234 (Murphy, J., dissenting). Justice Jackson lamented that the Court’s decision upholding the Government’s policy would prove to be “a far more subtle blow to liberty than the promulgation of the order itself,” for although the executive order was not likely to be long lasting, the Court’s willingness to tolerate it would endure. Id., at 245–246.
In the intervening years since Korematsu, our Nation has done much to leave its sordid legacy behind. See, e.g., Civil Liberties Act of 1988, 50 U. S. C. App. §4211 et seq. (setting forth remedies to individuals affected by the executive order at issue in Korematsu); Non-Detention Act of 1971, 18 U. S. C. §4001(a) (forbidding the imprisonment or detention by the United States of any citizen absent an Act of Congress). Today, the Court takes the important step of finally overruling Korematsu, denouncing it as “gravely wrong the day it was decided.” Ante, at 38 (citing Korematsu, 323 U. S., at 248 (Jackson, J., dissenting)). This formal repudiation of a shameful precedent is laud able and long overdue. But it does not make the majority’s decision here acceptable or right. By blindly accepting the Government’s misguided invitation to sanction a discrimi natory policy motivated by animosity toward a disfavored group, all in the name of a superficial claim of national security, the Court redeploys the same dangerous logic underlying Korematsu and merely replaces one “gravely wrong” decision with another. Ante, at 38.
Our Constitution demands, and our country deserves, a Judiciary willing to hold the coordinate branches to ac count when they defy our most sacred legal commitments. Because the Court’s decision today has failed in that respect, with profound regret, I dissent.

Those 5 who voted for this heinous atrocity committed upon The Constitution can no longer be considered judges in any sense. They are nothing more than corrupt politicians in robes who have pretzeled both themselves and the law into the service of evil.
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The recent decision, is NOT a “muslim” ban.
-It is a ban on travel from some (not all) countries that have a majority muslim population. Travel from these countries, by citizens who are atheists, wiccans, Baptists, or Roman Catholics is forbidden as well.
-The ban includes travel from North Korea(atheist) and Venezuela (Predominately Roman Catholic)
-Muslims from other nations can still travel to the USA. There is no religious question on the visa application.
-Foreign nationals who are resident in other countries, who do not hold US citizenship, are not protected by the US constitution.
-The USA has the right and the responsibility to control who enters our nation. We have the right to ban travel into the USA, for any reason or for no reason. There is NO “right of entry” for foreign nationals.
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Charles,
Read Sotomayor’s dissent. Trump called it a Muslim Ban again and again. Any idiot except you knows that North Korea and Venezuela were thrown in as window dressing. How many immigrants from North Korea applied to enter the US in the last five years? If preventing terrorism was the goal, Why was Saudi Arabia and Egypt left off the list?
Can you read?
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Pres Trump may call it a “muslim ban”, but it applies to all persons from these nations, regardless of religious affiliation. North Korea and Venezuela are openly hostile to the USA, and are proven sponsors of terrorism.
As I explained in previous posts, Saudi Arabia has been cooperating in the efforts to combat terrorism for many years. Their support is very quiet, and does not get a lot of fanfare. The Saudis are a close ally of the USA, in many areas: Energy, intelligence sharing, political stability, support for the moderate Arab states, cooperation in the Persian gulf, etc. Banning travel from a close ally, is just ludicrous.
Egypt is not a state sponsor of terrorism. Egypt is the largest (population) Arab nation, and a close ally of the USA. Egypt cooperates in the efforts against terrorism, and provides assistance in many areas. The largest US embassy in the world , is in Cairo. Banning travel from Egypt is looney-tunes.
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Not a single terrorist death has been attributed to citizens of any of the nations on the Muslim Ban list.
Citizens of Saudi Arabia were responsible for the worst act of terrorism on American soil.
The Muslim countries left off the list are countries where the Trump Organization has commercial interests.
I ask again, can you read?
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Majority Muslim countries where Trump does business were not included on his Muslim Ban.
I suppose if a country wants to get off the ban, its ambassador should call Don Jr and negotiate to open a Trump hotel ASAP.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/countries-where-trump-does-business-are-not-hit-by-new-travel-restrictions/2017/01/28/dd40535a-e56b-11e6-a453-19ec4b3d09ba_story.html?utm_term=.9fcd350ab63a
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ah, there it is. 🙂
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Charles, should we scratch the poem that welcomed immigrants to our shores since 1903 off of the statue of liberty?
Why are immigrants coming here today less entitled to access, due process or political refuge then your forefathers or my grandfather were when they came?
Assuming it was constitutional to discriminate against any immigrant for any reason, is it moral and supportable by you that we have a policy that discriminates against people solely because of their country of origin?
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Charles, you said: “What I post on twitter/FB is my own business (and my wife, she also posts there ).”
What is publicly posted on Twitter and FB is public, not private, by definition. So your statements are getting even weirder and weirder. It’s also highly uncommon that someone who posts as often as you, sometimes with meandering thoughts, has no pictures, ever.
You said: “There is nothing unusual or unprofessional about posting my political opinions, or anything else.”
But there have been many instances where people posting anti-immigrant or radical political statements have been fired because employers do not want negative attention. The most recent case was the NYC lawyer who lost his job after his anti-Hispanic comments went viral.
Your anti-Muslim broadbrushing might not be as incindiary, but employers anywhere would probably agree that posting naked women spread eagle under your real name is a fireable offense.
You said “I do have a private life, and what I discuss in private, is not professional.”
This is true, unless you post it online, for all the world to see, which you have done. And if you were hacked, but didn’t realize it till I brought it to your attention just now, that’s pretty far-fetched.
It’s not clear why, if you wanted to be taken seriously on this blog, you would have all that spam and porn online under your real name, which is why I suspected earlier you are a chaos-agent just trying to muddy the waters and take up peoples time, going around in illogical circles. Mission accomplished!
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Why would anyone think that posting on Twitter is private. What you write to your friends is usually private. The purpose of Twitter is to create a public forum, other that private messages.
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My account was hacked, and several messages in Russian were posted on twitter under my name. And what I post on Twitter/FB is my business, I will continue to exercise my 1st amendment rights. What I post is NOT private, but it is still my business. I have attempted to delete some of the photos, (posted when the account was hacked), no luck so far.
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Sad. Very sad.
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Charles, the best thing we could do to help potential victims of genital mutilation would be offer them safe harbor because they face certain torture at a tender age and we are complicit if we don’t help. If you ban them, you are empowering their tormentors, but this is the logic you have presented, as someone unable to get back into your own accounts now that hackers have posted years worth of spam and porn under your name.
And you said you were a telecommunications expert!
>
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I have not made a posting on twitter/FB in months. I have changed my passwords. I am contacting twitter to get the photos removed. I appreciate your telling me about the hacking.
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@Diane:
I got into the account, and deleted the photo which you found so offensive. Diane, please do me a favor, and delete the photo from your blog. I am appalled that you would post such trash, deliberately.
There are many Russian tweets, I checked them, and none appear to be offensive in any way.
I never said I was a telecommunications expert. I am a telecommunications engineer. I am going to close the twitter account.
@ jake: you say Q offer them safe harbor because they face certain torture at a tender age and we are complicit if we don’t help END Q
Are you serious? Do you seriously think that the USA should go into villages in Somalia, and offer young girls “safe harbor”? How are we supposed to do that?
FGM is a barbaric practice, and the civilized world, should be fighting it at all levels.
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Charles, it’s nice you finally looked at some of the Russian tweets on your “personal” account, but your credibility is shot. I hope you never know what it’s like to have a door slammed in your face when you desperately need help. If you are American, you do disservice to your descendants who came here as tired, huddled masses yearning to be free.
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Q If you are American, you do disservice to your descendants who came here as tired, huddled masses yearning to be free. END Q
I have no descendants. I have not looked at that twitter account for months.
I certainly need no lectures from you.
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She’s a light in the dark!
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Appointed by…………..
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Just heard on NPR that Trump has set a record for appointing judges (far right wing libertarian ghouls) to the federal appellate and the lower courts. It’s not just the SCOTUS.
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Mitch McConnell is working double time to pack the federal judiciary with rightwing soldiers of evangelism.
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“This administration has repeatedly used Japanese-American incarceration as precedent for its cruel and xenophobic policies,” said Nina Wallace, communications coordinator for Densho. “What’s really disturbing is that they appear to be using Japanese-American history not as a warning but as a blueprint for how to carry out similar human rights violations.”
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/migrant-kids-japanese-american-internment-camp_us_5b33bae2e4b0b745f17a07cc
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Let’s not forget our shameful treatment of indigenous people in this country as well.
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What does the treatment of Native populations, and the incarceration of American citizens of Japanese descent, have to do with restricting entry into this nation by foreign nationals, from nations that support terrorism?
NO equivalency. The exclusion of foreigners, is not the same as relocating US citizens.
There is no right to enter the USA (for foreign nationals).
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Charles,
You ovuouslt didn’t read Justice Sotomayor’s dissent. The US has a principle of religious liberty. We don’t bar entire religions because of one bigot who is president.
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I read the relevant portions. The ban on travel from these nations, applies to all persons from these nations, regardless of their religion. Atheists, Zoroastrians, Wiccans and Baptists are equally barred. There is no religious affiliation question on a US visa application.
This is NOT a muslim ban. Muslims enter this nation, from many nations, frequently. Islam is the religion of 20% of this planet. Banning muslims from entry is just not possible.
I worked for the US state Department, in foreign embassies, and I have assisted my two foreign wives in obtaining entry visas. There is no determination of religious affiliation on any US entry form. The USA has never attempted to bar any person from any specific religious group from entering the USA. (Notwithstanding, the attempts to bar Jewish refugees from Europe, who had legitimate asylum claims).
The USA has done more than any other nation, to provide asylum to religious groups. The assistance to Bahai’s escaping from Iran, is one example.
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Damn it, Charles, read it for yourself. I am not your Research assistant.
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I read the dissent. I do not necessarily agree with the conclusions. I also read the opinion issued by the majority. Here is a portion of the analysis:
Q Finally, the majority considered the plaintiffs’ Establishment Clause claim. On its face, the majority found the Proclamation did not favor or disfavor any particular religion. But even looking behind the face of the Proclamation, the majority found that the facts that many majority-Muslim countries were not subject to restrictions and that some non-majority-Muslim countries were subject to the restrictions supported the government’s contention that the Proclamation was not based on anti-Muslim animus and was instead based on “a sufficient national security justification.” END Q
Read https://www.oyez.org/cases/2017/17-965
It is pointless to go on about which opinion is right. The minority (losing) opinion reached by the two individuals, may be right. I find it a little odd, that Justice Ginsburg, would oppose efforts to control the entry of individuals into our nation, from nations which support terrorism.
“Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not his own facts”- Daniel Patrick Moynihan.
Our nation did bar many Jewish refugees, attempting to escape the Nazis. This situation is not exactly parallel, but I think you get my point.
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Yes, the conservative Court in the 30s turned down asylum applications from hundreds of thousands of people, condemning them to death.
Did you ever hear of the St. Louis, the ship that was filled with escapees from Hitler? Read about it.
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Read Moynihan’s statement again. It rebukes your opinions. The facts support Justice Sotomayor.
The Orange Gascist declared his intention to bar MUSLIMS from the US. His lawyers pretended that his Travel Ban was not a Muslim Ban. Of course it is.
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I am well-familiar with the story of the SS St.Louis. There was a terrific film “Voyage of the Damned”.
There are some portions of the Sotomayer dissent, which make some excellent points.
But the majority of the court, decided to support the executive order.
A minority dissent, however well-written and well-intentioned, is like the second-best poker hand.
No good!
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This majority will be put by “the court of history,” as Justice Roberts put it, in the same notorious majorities group who prevailed in the Dred Scott case, the Plessey case, and Korematsu. Infamy will be their fate.
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From Raw Story: A leading contender to be appointed to the Supreme Court is a highly partisan Republican who holds an extremist view of presidential power, according to a Washington Post story analyzing his credentials.
Brett M. Kavanaugh was a clerk for retiring Justice Anthony M. Kennedy and now serves on the District of Columbia Circuit court.
In the past, he’s argued that the president should not be distracted by civil lawsuits, criminal investigations or even questions from attorneys while in office.
But, despite that stance, Kavanaugh worked under Ken Starr as one of the attorneys investigating Bill Clinton.
Despite the fact that the Republican judge worked on the legal attack mounted against Clinton, he has more recently written a law review article offering an extremist view of presidential power.
A president should not have to face “time-consuming and distracting” investigations or lawsuits because they “ill serve the public interest, especially in times of financial or national security crisis.”
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/top-trump-prospect-open-supreme-court-seat-claims-presidents-prosecution-investigations-report/
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Charles, should we scratch the poem that welcomed immigrants to our shores since 1903 off of the statue of liberty?
Why are immigrants coming here today less entitled to access, due process or political refuge then your forefathers or my grandfather were when they came?
Assuming it was constitutional to discriminate against any immigrant for any reason, do you support as defensible a policy that discriminates against people solely because of their country of origin?
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@jake: You are stepping on a sensitivity here. I do not advocate removing the poem, nor do I advocate hanging a “no vacancy” sign on the statue of liberty.
I am the grandson of immigrants. My first wife was Chinese, and after my divorce, I married a Russian. I have nothing against immigrants, I keep marrying them.
No nation on earth welcomes more legal immigrants, than does the USA.
LEGAL immigrants, who have made proper application, and completed the vetting process (It took Larisa over two years, and cost over $1000), are certainly entitled to access/due process. Legitimate political asylees, and applicants for political asylum, are entitled to proper consideration, no one denies this.
The executive order, which was upheld in the case of Trump v. Hawaii (2018), is officially titled: ” Protecting the Nation from Foreign Terrorist Entry into the United States” see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13769
The black-letter law states quite clearly:
Q The text of §1182(f) states: “Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate.” END Q
Your question is phrased a bit awkwardly. It is legal for the US government to refuse entry, either on a temporary visa, or for permanent residence, to any foreign person, for any reason, or for no reason. There is no “right” to immigrate to the USA. There is no “right” even to obtain a temporary tourist visa. ( I used to work for the US State Department)
And I do support the US government refusing to permit entry into the USA any person, based solely on their country of origin. There are nations in this world, that absolutely hate the USA, and have overtly/covertly supported terrorist acts against our nation. I work at the Pentagon, and I can see the place where the plane crashed into the building, near where I work every day.
Our nation has not only the right, but the responsibility to protect our citizens, from nations that would do us harm.
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The Muslim Ban did not include any of the nations that have actually done us harm. I call BS.
None of the nations on the list is responsible for a single act of terrorism in the US.
Trump is a fascist and a bigot.
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Q The Muslim Ban did not include any of the nations that have actually done us harm END Q
The ban includes two countries, North Korea and Venezuela, which do not have majority Muslim populations.
And your claim is not accurate. The USA was in active combat with North Korea from 1950-1954. There has never been a peace treaty signed, and the USA and the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea are still technically at war.
The balance of the nations on the ban, have not done us “harm”, I must agree. But, we need not wait until a nation has harmed our nation, to deem that nation hostile and dangerous.
Until our government is satisfied, that none of these listed nations are actively out to harm American citizens, and that the nation(s) is/are fully cooperating in the War on Terror, and applicants for admission to the USA, are properly vetted, the subject nations will have to remain barred.
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Charles,
How many North Koreans have sought to enter the US? Please cut the crap.
The ban is a Muslim Ban.
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Q The Muslim Ban did not include any of the nations that have actually done us harm. I call BS.
None of the nations on the list is responsible for a single act of terrorism in the US. END Q
I must disagree. The ban includes travel to the USA, from the Islamic Republic of Iran. The current government of Iran has done harm to the USA.
In 1979, Iranian thugs, with the blessing of the Islamic government stormed the US Embassy, and held US diplomats hostage for 444 days. Iranians confiscated millions of dollars worth of US government property, and millions of dollars worth of US private property in Iran.
Iran is clearly a terrorist state, and clearly sponsors international terrorism. Iran is hell-bent on obtaining nuclear weapons, and the systems (missiles) to deliver nuclear weapons. Iran currently has weapons (including poison gas) trained on Israel (and other nations).
Some (not all) of the other nations included in the ban, are known sponsors of terrorism. None have been certified as being fully cooperative in the international efforts to control terrorism.
While some (not all) of the nations on the travel ban, are less of a terror threat than others, all of the nations listed are clearly dangerous to the USA, and all have the potential to mount terror attacks against the USA (and our allies, including Israel).
Syria is clearly a state sponsor of terrorism. See
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/national/permanent-travel-ban/?utm_term=.4511bbf76a1d
You do not have to wait until an alligator bites you in the butt, to realize that it is dangerous.
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How many attacks have occurred on American soil by Iranian nationals? 0
15 of 19 terrorists on 9/11 were Saudis. They are not banned.
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Q How many attacks have occurred on American soil by Iranian nationals? 0
15 of 19 terrorists on 9/11 were Saudis. They are not banned. END Q
Under the Vienna Convention of 1961, Embassies located in foreign nations, are the territory of the nation which operates the embassy, not the territory of the host nation. The attack on the US Embassy in Tehran in 1979, was an attack on US soil.
The USA does not ban travel from a nation, based on the criminal action of one individual nor a group of individuals. The fact that some of the terrorists who propagated the attack on the USA in 2001, were Saudi nationals, has nothing to do with the decision to permit travel to the USA by Saudis.
National security decisions, including travel bans, are based on the actions of the government(s) of the nation(s) in question. When a government is openly hostile to US interests, and has shown no cooperation in combatting international terrorism, then that nation is subject to sanctions (including travel bans).
No terror attacks were ever committed against the USA, by nationals from the Union of South Africa. But the USA inflicted economic sanctions, and other measures against South Africa, based on their apartheid policies. (See the Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act, of 1986).
US foreign policy decisions are developed and implemented, based on a variety of factors. The USA decided to embargo oil and aviation fuel, and refused to sell these items (and other items like scrap metal), to the Empire of Japan, in reaction to the Japanese military actions in China in the 1930’s. We did not wait for Pearl Harbor, to freeze Japanese assets held in the USA.
Foreign policy decisions are often “pro-active”, and taken prior to waiting for a hostile government to act. The decision to halt travel to the USA by nationals who are resident in these nations, is a very mild action, indeed.
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Oh, since Saudi Arabia is our ally, it will pay no penalty for exporting Wahhabism and Bin Ladenism.
Good news! Women are now allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia. Welcome to the 20th century!
Bad news! The women who have led the fight for women’s rights were arrested and jailed.
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Q Oh, since Saudi Arabia is our ally, it will pay no penalty for exporting Wahhabism and Bin Ladenism.
Good news! Women are now allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia. Welcome to the 20th century!
Bad news! The women who have led the fight for women’s rights were arrested and jailed. END Q
Saudi Arabia is a close ally of the USA. Our nation has been working closely with the Kingdom, for many years, on various issues.
If the USA ever got serious about energy independence, we would not have to “suck up” to the sheiks to keep our SUVs running. But that is for another discussion.
The “Wahabi” are the principal tribe of Saudi Arabia. Wahabis believe in a strict interpretation of the Sharia law, and a very orthodox version of Sunni Islam. There is no such thing as “Ben Ladenism”. More moderate Islamic nations, and nations with a Shi’a majority, have very little use for Wahabism.
Just last week, women were finally extended driving privileges in the Kingdom.
Saudi Arabia does not use the Gregorian calendar. It is now the year 1439 of the Hejira. It is therefore, the 15th century of Islam.
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Here is a portion of the relevant law, granting the President the power to control entry into the United States, by foreigners:
Q The text of §1182(f) states: “Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate.” END Q
That is clear, black-letter law.
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He cannot violate the Constitution, which prohibits religious discrimination
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Which part of the US Constitution forbids religious discrimination? The first amendment prohibits the establishment of a state-sponsored religion, and protects the “free exercise” of religion.
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Discrimination based on religion is illegal in the US. Maybe you did not hear about that.
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Agreed, discrimination (Based on creed, religion, and other things) is prohibited by law. I just do not find it in the Constitution.
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It is written into the Civil Rights law of 1964.
Read it.
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I am well-familiar with the Civil Rights act of 1964. The law prohibits discrimination in employment, housing, etc. It does NOT prohibit such discrimination in immigration nor in admission to the USA.
Foreign nationals in foreign countries, do NOT enjoy the civil rights of American citizens. It is perfectly legal to discriminate against foreigners requesting admission to the USA, based on race, creed, color, sexual orientation, criminal record, HIV status, national origin, etc.
I have been through the immigration process twice, and I have worked at US Embassies, abroad. Our nation prohibits entry by foreign nationals, based on all sorts of criteria, and all perfectly legally.
I worked at the US Embassy in Paris in 1986. Iraq and Iran were at war. The Iranian Army was drafting 12 year old boys, to have them walk in front of their tanks, to determine if there were land mines. The boys would be killed setting off the mines, so that the tanks could continue.
Iranian women would come to the visa section in Paris, with their children. They were attempting to get entry visas to the USA, so that their boys could dodge the draft.
Most of the applications were denied, because the parents were falsifying the applications.
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You just changed the subject. We were talking about religious discrimination. You said the Constitution doesn’t bar religious discrimination. I said the Civil Rights Act of 1964 does. And you changed back to defending the zmuslim Ban.
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Q We were talking about religious discrimination. You said the Constitution doesn’t bar religious discrimination. I said the Civil Rights Act of 1964 does. And you changed back to defending the zmuslim Ban. END Q
The constitution does NOT prohibit religious discrimination. The Civil Rights act of 1964 prohibits discrimination in employment, housing, etc, based on race,color, creed, etc. does. The Civil Rights act is NOT applicable to foreign nationals, outside of the USA .
The USA government has the absolute word on who may enter the USA, either temporarily or for permanent residence. The US government may discriminate on any basis: Religion(although there is no religious question on the form), HIV/AIDS status, political affiliation, etc. Communists, terrorists, and individuals who belong to organizations, whose purpose is to inflict terror and harm on US citizens, are prohibited from entry, regardless of their country of origin.
The process to obtain a tourist visa, is fairly easy, the form is not complicated. The procedure to immigrate for permanent residence is more complicated.
And the official title of the Executive order, which the Supreme Court upheld is:
“Protecting the Nation from Foreign Terrorist Entry into the United States”
It is Executive Order 13769, duly recorded, and registered.
I must stress, the Order does not specify religion, only the countries, whose nationals cannot legally travel to the USA. No religious question appears on a US visa/immigration form. The ban is applicable to all persons resident in the subject nations, from Atheists to Zoroastrians. And the nations of North Korea, and Venezuela are included on the ban, and those nations do not have Muslim majorities.
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Charles,
You are a religious bigot.
I have experienced religious discrimination in my lifetime, far less since passage of the Civil Rights Act.
The Supreme Court twisted its logic into a pretzel to pretend that Trump’s Muslim Ban is not a Muslim Ban because the Court knows that would be unconstitutional. Even the Itange Fascist’s lawyers knew that a religious ban would violate the Constitution so they threw in North Korea and Venezuela to prank the law.
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I am NOT a bigot, religious or otherwise. I go with Tom Jefferson, his statement about having my neighbor pray to one god or twenty gods. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg. When it comes to religion, I am a “live and let live” person.
As far as that goes, I was married to a Buddhist, and after my divorce, I married a Russian Orthodox. I have one sister who is Unitarian, and she is married to a Roman Catholic. My other sister is Lutheran church (Missouri Synod). My brother is a Wiccan (nature worshiper).
I am working on a project, to increase the inter-faith dialog at my church, and I have attended open houses at our local Mosque.
I have lectured on Islam, for many years. Trust me, I am by no means a religious bigot. I cherish our nation’s splendid tradition of religious tolerance and religious freedom. I also go with George Washington’s letter to the Truro Synagogue. He Wrote:
“every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and fig tree, and there shall be none to make him afraid.”
He continues:
For happily the Government of the United States gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support. ENB Q
Individual Americans should live by his admonishments, and also ensure that all residents of our nation, including foreigners, should demean themselves, properly.
Other nations can and do ban our citizens from travelling to their nation. Each nation has the right to ban travel into their country. see
http://www.msn.com/en-us/music/news/24-celebs-who-were-banned-from-other-countries/ss-AAoRBcf?ocid=ientp#image=22
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Please, Charles, no one cares where you lived or who you married.
You are bigoted against Muslims, but not the Muslim countries where Trump has business. Must enrich Papa!
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Big news, Charles. TOM Jefferson is dead. The U.S. is no longer a pure white Christian nation with slaves.
We are a nation of many races, religions, and cultures. We are straight, gay, and transgender. Women have the right to vote. Every person is entitled to be equal before the laws. No one is above the law, not even the Orange Buffoon.
Get over it.
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Q TOM Jefferson is dead. The U.S. is no longer a pure white Christian nation with slaves.
We are a nation of many races, religions, and cultures. We are straight, gay, and transgender. Women have the right to vote. Every person is entitled to be equal before the laws. END Q
I do not quite get this remark. Thomas Jefferson is the author of the Virginia statute for religious freedom. See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Statute_for_Religious_Freedom
I am an adopted Virginian, and I cherish our splendid tradition of religious freedom. And this includes the Islamic faith, as well.
I hold no prejudices against any Muslim.
The demographic characteristics of our nation, are well-known. We have more brown people than we have black people. Chattel slavery ended in the 19th century.
So what?
Of course, all American citizens, and legal residents have the equal protection of the law. Even illegal residents are entitled to due process.
Nevertheless, no legal protection and no legal rights, extend to foreign persons in foreign lands.
I do not understand, how you can defend a religion, that is so inimical to your own views. It is a puzzlement.
Islam:
-Permits a man to have up to four(4) wives.
-Permits a man to divorce his wife/wives, by stating “I divorce thee” 3 times.
-Permits the husband to chastise (beat) his wife/wives
-Forbids a woman to go out of the house, unless accompanied by an adult male relative
-Requires death as a punishment for adultery. (It takes 4 male witnesses, or 8 female witnesses, because it takes the testimony of two females to equal the testimony of a male)
-Requires a hand to be cut off for stealing.
-After a divorce, all children remain the property of the husband’s family in perpetuity.
-Prescribes death for homosexual activity. In Iran, gays are pushed off buildings.
Women just got the privilege to drive in Saudi Arabia, last week.
How can a progressive, modern, feminist, embrace and defend Islam?
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Charles, I was puzzled by your contradictory statements, for example saying Islam is anti-Jew but then saying some Muslims are ok. Which is it?
So I checked out your Twitter feed and FB and saw you posted almost exclusively in Russian for long periods in 2014 and then during Trump’s election, you were an early supporter cheering him on throughout the election but you also posted a lot of commercial product promotions, sweepstakes (aka spam) and x-rated photos of naked women, adding only captions like “stunning” or “beautiful”.
@cemab4y
Can you explain this unusual, unprofessional online behavior?
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What, like this?
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Diane, Are you aware, that in some (not all) of the nations on the banned travel list, that Female Genital Mutilation is practiced? (Ex: Somalia). see
Click to access SOM_FGM_Advocacy_Paper.pdf
Do you really want people entering our nation, who practice this abomination?
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There are many religious practices I despise. Some are practiced by Christians. I don’t approve but I don’t question religious freedom so long as it doesn’t impinge on the rights of others, like the baker who refused to bake a cake for a gay coupke
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Q Charles, I was puzzled by your contradictory statements, for example saying Islam is anti-Jew but then saying some Muslims are ok. Which is it?
So I checked out your Twitter feed and FB and saw you posted almost exclusively in Russian for long periods in 2014 and then during Trump’s election, you were an early supporter cheering him on throughout the election but you also posted a lot of commercial product promotions, sweepstakes (aka spam) and x-rated photos of naked women, adding only captions like “stunning” or “beautiful”.
@cemab4y END Q
Here it is: Islamic theology is clearly anti-Semitic. Read for yourself, how the religion calls for Jews to be turned into Apes/monkeys/swine, and then into idol-worshippers.
See:
The Quran requires their(the Jews) “abasement and poverty” in the form of the poll tax jizya. In his “wrath” God has “cursed” the Jews and will turn them into apes/monkeys and swine and idol worshipers because they are “infidels”.[8]
I have spent many years in Islamic nations, and I have worked closely with Muslims. Not all muslims adhere to every aspect of Islam, that is promulgated by the most extremists among the faith. There are “cafeteria Muslims” who eat pork, and consume alcohol. The Islamic faith claims 20% of the population of the world. Not all of them are fanatics and extremists.
My wife has made some postings on my twitter account. I have basic Russian skills, but I have never made a posting in Russian.
I have been a supporter of the President, from early on. No dispute. If you have not figured that out by now, I am telling you now. I support my President.
I do not check my FB very often, and I have never posted commercial announcements. Maybe someone hacked in. I don’t know.
You actually went back over four years ago? I am impressed.
I guess I better go in, and change the passwords!
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Charles,
Why don’t you read the Bible and discover the words that vilify adulterers, encourage stoning (a horrible way to die), and promote other reprehensible practices? Your hero, the Orange Traitor, has broken every one of the 10 Commandments.
You are a bigot.
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Q @cemab4y
Can you explain this unusual, unprofessional online behavior? END Q
What I post on twitter/FB is my own business (and my wife, she also posts there ).
My personal twitter/FB accounts, are PERSONAL and not professional. What I post there is covered by the 1st amendment, and is free speech.
There is nothing unusual or unprofessional about posting my political opinions, or anything else.
I do have a private life, and what I discuss in private, is not professional.
If you find my twitter/FB posts to be offensive, or “unprofessional”, then don’t read them.
Kahlil Gibran — ‘If you reveal your secrets to the wind, you should not blame the wind for revealing them to the trees.’
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Q Why don’t you read the Bible and discover the words that vilify adulterers, encourage stoning (a horrible way to die), and promote other reprehensible practices? Your hero, the Orange Traitor, has broken every one of the 10 Commandments.
You are a bigot. END Q
I do not believe that Pres Trump has ever made a graven image and prayed to it.
I am not a bigot.
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Trump prays to the god Mammon. There may actually be a graven image of Mammon in the form of a $100 bill (“the Benjamin”). I assume you reviewed the other nine Commandments and agree that he has broken every one of them. He lies, cheats, steals, covets what others have, and is an admitted adulterer. I don’t know if he has murdered anyone, but given his long ties to the Mafia and mobsters, who knows?
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@Diane: please do me a favor, and delete that photo.
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Will do.
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@Jake: You say Q Charles, I was puzzled by your contradictory statements, for example saying Islam is anti-Jew but then saying some Muslims are ok. Which is it? END Q
Please be fair, and do not twist my words. I do NOT say that Islam is anti-Jewish. The doctrines and statements of Islam, are clearly anti-Jewish, for anyone to see. The statement that Jews are to be turned into apes/monkeys/swine, and idol worshippers, should be self-explanatory.
There are some Muslims, who are “cafeteria Muslims”, and do not subscribe to the more extreme tenets of the faith. Not all of the billions of Muslims on earth, are wild terrorists. Be fair.
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Charles, why don’t you read the Bible literally? Do you live by the laws spelled out in Deuteronomy?
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Q Charles, why don’t you read the Bible literally? Do you live by the laws spelled out in Deuteronomy? END Q
I have been reading the Holy Bible for over half a century. I took a college course in New Testament theology. You could say that I read the Bible “literally”, if you mean that I read it thoroughly. I also read the Holy Qu’Ran, and the Zend-Avestas, and other religious texts. Comparative religions have been an interest of mine for many years. My first wife was Buddhist, and I studied Buddhism.
I do not live by the pronouncements in the book of Deuteronomy. Since I am not Jewish, I shave, I eat pork and shellfish, and I wear blended fabrics. I do not believe in circumcision, either for males nor females.
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Do you abide by every tenet and law in the New Testament, since the Old Testament is rubbish to you?
Don’t Christians acknowledge the same Ten Commandments as Jews?
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@Diane, Thanks for deleting that photo off your blog. Someone hacked into my twitter and posted all kinds of weird stuff, including many tweets in Russian and some other disgusting photos. I am closing down the twitter.
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@ Diane: The photo is still visible on your blog (1038am 4 July). Please remove it, as you promised.
You say:
Q Do you abide by every tenet and law in the New Testament, since the Old Testament is rubbish to you?
Don’t Christians acknowledge the same Ten Commandments as Jews?
END Q
Fair question, and it deserves an answer. I do NOT follow/abide by the tenets/laws of the New Testament. You may think that I am a Christian person, but I have never said that I was, and I have never publicly disclosed my religious beliefs on this blog. Do not assume that I am a Christian.
The Old Testament is not “rubbish” to me. I have been reading the Holy Bible, old and new testaments for over half a century. I cherish the poetry and majesty of the scriptures. I do not choose to abstain from pork/shellfish, and I shave. These activities are forbidden, by the people who choose to follow these directives. I do not.
The Ten Commandments, and the religious directives and various laws set down in Leviticus, and other parts of the Old Testament, are not necessarily followed by all Christians.
Example: The Ten Commandments are in Exodus chapter 20. In Exodus chapter 21, there are the instructions on how to sell your daughter into slavery. See:
http://biblehub.com/exodus/21-7.htm
If I had a daughter, I would not consider selling her into slavery.
Some Christians “acknowledge” the Ten Commandments, some do not.
The regulations set forth to a desert tribe, some 40 centuries ago, are not part of my religious tradition.
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You don’t treat the Testament as law yet you castigate Muslims because of words in the Koran.
You are a religious bigot.
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Q You don’t treat the Testament as law yet you castigate Muslims because of words in the Koran. END Q
I do not get your meaning. I do not treat “the Testament”, as law. Which testament? Which law?
I do not “castigate” Muslims. 20% of the population of this world is Islamic. I do not “castigate” these people.
Nevertheless, there are some things presented in their scriptures, and in the pronouncements of their religious leaders, that I find troubling.
When Salman Rushdie published “The Satanic Verses”, liberals/progressives all over the world rushed to his defense. Some Muslim imams placed a “fatwah” (declaration of Holy War”) on him, and he remains under a death sentence even today. see
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/salman-rushdie-iranian-state-media-renew-fatwa-on-satanic-verses-author-with-600000-bounty-a6887141.html
Now, liberals/progressives are all “lathered up” over the President’s decision to ban travel from some nations, which have refused to cooperate fully in the fight against international terrorism.
Why the double standard?
I believe sincerely, that if more people knew the truth about Islam, and how some Islamic leaders have perverted Islam, they would think differently.
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It is a Muslim Ban and you are a bigot.
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There is one thing, that I do not understand. How can you, a Jewish person, support the entry into this nation, people from a religion, that is the avowed enemy of your own faith? I just don’t understand.
Is your hatred of the President so bad?
It is like a Jewish person supporting the entry of Nazis, into the USA.
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Muslims are not Nazis.
My synagogue holds a demonstration every Friday in front of the Muslim Center at NYU. Congregation members hold banners saying “the Jewish community of Congregation Beit Simchat Torah welcomes and supports our Muslim neighbors.” Last High Holy Days, most of the ushers were Muslims, our friends.
The hate must stop.
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I spent two years in Germany, and I used to get my hair cut by a former SS Nazi soldier, who fought in the battle of Stalingrad. I lived in Saudi Arabia for one year. Muslims are not Nazis.
Trust me, some (NOT ALL) muslims could give the Nazis lessons in anti-Semitism. The Islamic faith and theology is quite clear, on the Jews, and the Jewish faith.
Q The Quran requires their “abasement and poverty” in the form of the poll tax jizya. In his “wrath” God has “cursed” the Jews and will turn them into apes/monkeys and swine and idol worshipers because they are “infidels”.[8] END Q
I once read, that a liberal is a person, who tries to understand the point of view of the person who is mugging them. I am starting to believe it.
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Charles,
I don’t hate Muslims. Y
There is too much hate in the world. Trump’s Muslim Ban is the act of a fascist.
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Charles, how can you as an American, advocate discrimination based on religion? What is your evidence that every Muslim has animus towards Judaism? I teach hundreds of Muslims that never uttered a bad word against anyone’s religion in the least.
You blame billions of people for the actions of a minority of hawkish, hate-mongering radicals? No wonder you hide your full name, you are prejudice.
Should we assume all Jews are murderous psychopaths because of the actions of David Berkowitz? This is your logic.
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You are again stepping on a sensitivity. I do NOT advocate discrimination based on religion. The executive order applies to all citizens of the listed countries, regardless of the religion of the individual. From Atheists, to Zoroastrians, ALL travel from the subject nations, is prohibited and controlled. And the banned countries include North Korea, which is officially atheist, and Venezuela, which is predominately Roman Catholic.
Have you ever seen a US visa application? There is no question on the form demanding that the applicant identify his/her religion.
I have lived for many years in predominately Muslim nations. I have spent a year in Saudi Arabia. I know that not every Muslim is a terrorist, and not every muslim has “animus” towards Judaism. Islam permits muslim men to marry Jewish women.
I do NOT blame “billions” for the terrorist actions of a small number of fanatics. I do not blame all Christians for the Crusades. I do not blame all Germans for the Holocaust. Get real.
I do not hide my name. My name is Charles Edward Martin, and I have posted my resume and work history on this blog. I am not prejudiced against any religion. My first wife was Buddhist, and Larisa is Russian Orthodox. I am a Freemason, our fraternity supports religious freedom.
I do not blame all Jews for the crimes of one individual.
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Charles, YOU posted:
“How can you, a Jewish person, support the entry into this nation, people from a religion, that is the avowed enemy of your own faith?…It is like a Jewish person supporting the entry of Nazis, into the USA.”
This is clear evidence of broadbrushing a whole religion and clear evidence of discrimination based on religion. So were you hacked, or are you schizophrenic, or are you playing silly nonsense games to waste our time as a performance art project?
This travel ban discriminates against immigrants or even just visitors or tourists based on country of origin. There is a difference between discrimination based on religion and discrimination based on country of origin.
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@Jake: I have been studying Islam for a couple of decades, and lived in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Islam is an avowed enemy of Judaism. Read it for yourself. I am neither “hacked” nor schizophrenic. I am not playing games.
Q This travel ban discriminates against immigrants or even just visitors or tourists based on country of origin. There is a difference between discrimination based on religion and discrimination based on country of origin. END Q
This statement is entirely correct. The travel ban does discriminate against ANY travel from the listed nations, to the USA for any reason.
I am 100% in agreement with the ban. Discrimination based on country of origin, is not the same as discrimination based on religion. Agreed.
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Charles,
I am a Jew, you are not. I am 100% opposed to banning any religious group from our country.
Don’t tell me what my self-interest is. I do not fear Muslims. I fear Trump and his contempt for our laws and Constitution.
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Q I am 100% opposed to banning any religious group from our country. END Q
So am I. I am opposed to banning persons from entry into the USA, solely based on their religious beliefs and practices. We are in agreement. From Atheists, to Zoroastrians, any religion is welcome (provided that all other conditions are met).
Nevertheless, there is no “right” conferred on any foreigner to enter the USA. Whether for a tourist visa, a work visa, or permanent residence, the USA has the responsibility to strictly supervise entry.
Hospitality has its limits. We ban felons, prostitutes, child molesters, people with serious communicable diseases (Ex: AIDS/HIV), and other categories of persons. . I know what I am talking about, I have been through the procedure twice, with my wives.
And now we ban people traveling from some (not all) countries which are not cooperating in the fight against terrorism.
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EXCUSE ME, Chas., your last sentence reeks (just as almost all of your comments do). Are you kidding us?! (Well, of course not.)
You stereotype Muslims–“people from a religion, that is an avowed enemy of your own faith.”
We already have Nazis here…& they wrap themselves in the American flag. In fact, one is planning to have (Nazi & dictator-style) a
military parade.
&, no, YOU DON’T understand, just as you’d said.
(& yes, I am a Jew.)
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Here is what Islam says about the Jews:
Q Frederick M. Schweitzer and Marvin Perry state that references to Jews in the Quran are mostly negative. The Quran states that wretchedness and baseness were stamped upon the Jews, and they were visited with wrath from Allah, that was because they disbelieved in Allah’s revelations and slew the prophets wrongfully. And for their taking usury, which was prohibited for them, and because of their consuming people’s wealth under false pretense, a painful punishment was prepared for them. The Quran requires their “abasement and poverty” in the form of the poll tax jizya. In his “wrath” God has “cursed” the Jews and will turn them into apes/monkeys and swine and idol worshipers because they are “infidels”.[8] END Q
see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_antisemitism
Check out that last sentence. If those are not “fighting words”, what, pray tell, is?
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Charles, I will not be drawn into your web of hatred.
Pray tell, How was it possible that the ushers at my synagogue were Muslims (the largest gay synagogue in the world, where people gay and straight worship)? Maybe they did not get your message about hatred.
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I do not know how the ushers at your house of worship decided to serve there. Ask them. And I do not propagate a message of hatred. I have studied Islam for many years, and I just know what is published on the web. Look up “Islam and anti-Semitism”, and see for yourself.
see also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam
Don’t you know, that in most (not all) Islamic-majority nations, that homosexuality is a crime, and sometimes a capital crime? see
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/13/here-are-the-10-countries-where-homosexuality-may-be-punished-by-death-2/?utm_term=.4fbd61b1eb9f
I did not make this stuff up!
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The members of my synagogue defend the rights of Muslims. The Muslim community served as ushers at our holiest religious days, as a sign of gratitude.
If you do not understand the meaning of mutual respect, tolerance, acceptance, and the power of love, I can’t help you.
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“It is like a Jewish person supporting the entry of Nazis, into the USA.”
Way to go, Charles. Let’s fan the flames of religious zealotry. You sound like Trump. Funny. I don’t think I have heard the text from the Koran that declares death to all Jews. I’m sure there are plenty of Muslims who could debate that with you. How amazing that you have been able to document that all Muslims hate all Jews.
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I am a telecommunications engineer, not a Koranic scholar. I have been reading the Holy Qu’Ran for a couple of decades (in English translation, I do NOT speak Arabic).
I have never found a specific surah or Hadith, calling for “death to all jews”.
BUT- There are Muslim Imams in the USA (And abroad) calling for just that, See:
http://www.newsweek.com/imams-called-death-jews-trump-jerusalem-announcement-776941
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Charles, you are a bigot.
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I am not a bigot. I just have a reasonable fear of admitting persons into the USA, from nations which our government has determined to be supporting terrorism.
I am supportive of religious freedom. I am with Tom Jefferson on this.
Q But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. … Reason and free enquiry are the only effectual agents against error.” END Q
Query XVII of Notes on the State of Virginia, Jefferson
I would add a corollary: Reason and free enquiry are the only effectual agents against terror.
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Charles, you must be aware the US has supported terrorism – the Bay of Pigs, carpet bombing Cambodia, the Contra deathsquads, arming and funding Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden and countless more. The latest has been embracing the North Korean dictator who massacred and enslaved his people.
By your definition, broadbrushing all citizens by country of origin, you should be prohibited from international travel, right?
Indeed, the best way to combat terrorism is to give safe passage to the witnesses of atrocities, refugees and whistleblowers in a country, to amplify their voices in pursuit of justice. To close them off is escalation of the problem and abandonment of our duty as humanitarians.
>
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@Jake:
Q By your definition, broadbrushing all citizens by country of origin, you should be prohibited from international travel, right? END Q
I do not get your meaning. Who am I “broadbrushing”? The USA has the legal right, to prohibit travel to this country by people from any nation. That is clear, black-letter law, and I have posted the relevant portion of the law. Read it for yourself.
Q The text of §1182(f) states: “Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate.” END Q
If the president determines that travel to the USA would be “detrimental” to our interests, then the welcome mat is pulled up, and the door is closed. Good.
No one claims that every person from Yemen or Somalia, is a terrorist, but until the nations on the “banned” list can prove to our satisfaction, that they are cooperating fully in the fight against terrorism (and meet other criteria), the ban is legal, and must remain in place.
Of course, legitimate political asylees may make application, through proper channels, for exceptions.
And how did you jump to the conclusion that I should be banned from international travel? I am not a terrorist, and I am not a citizen of one of the nations on the “banned” list. I am an American citizen, and I can travel internationally, as I see fit.
Nevertheless, I am still subject to the laws and regulations of the nation(s) that I wish to visit. For example, I cannot be admitted to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, without a visa from the Kingdom. And since the Kingdom does not issue tourist visas to anyone, I cannot travel there.
The Kingdom (and every other nation on earth) has the right to determine who may enter their country.
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Charles, you have contradicted yourself. You say some, not all, Muslims are worse than Nazis, but then you say the religion of Islam is anti-Semitic. Please explain the Muslims in your disclaimer that are not anti-Semitic. How can that be? You are very sloppy with language.
The reality is that the Quran is a book, not a belief system. So a Muslim can practice without subscribing to any part in the book they don’t like. Take the Bible. There are no rational Christians who believe Jonah lived inside a whale, so not everything belief held by a religious adherent is as written in ancient books that have had centuries of revision, translation and censorship.
If you interpret US law and culture to believe it’s moral or legal to choose people to ban based on country of origin, that’s the definition of prejudice because you are blaming inncocent people for the actions of a few, defined by illogical subjective criteria.
Trump has brought a lot of bigots out of the woodwork, but some have been shamed and lost their jobs because their employers were embarrassed to be associated with them. So free speech cuts both ways, and as we saw with the reparations given to people the US government put in interment camps, there could be high civil costs for prejudicial discrimination.
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Let me make it more clear. There are some Muslims, including some Imams (Teachers), who are calling for killing the Jews. see
http://www.newsweek.com/imams-called-death-jews-trump-jerusalem-announcement-776941
Are they worse than Nazis? I don’t know, but the open call for the extermination of a religion, is at least as bad.
The Islamic religion (at least their theology) , has been interpreted as being anti-Semitic. I must agree.
20% of the people on earth are Muslims. I am certain that there are many individual Muslims, who are not on a jihad to kill the Jews. Not all individual Muslims are anti-Semitic.
I am sure that there are “cafeteria Muslims” who do not wholly subscribe to every individual tenet of Islam. I used to work with a fine Muslim man, who drank alcohol and ate pork. So what?
I do not necessarily “interpret current US immigration law, as being moral/legal to ban individuals from a particular country”. The law is the law. I am more familiar with US immigration law, than most laymen, do to my personal situation.
Not every nation properly “vets” their population, and the US immigration authorities and the US State Department cannot necessarily rely on certain nation’s vetting procedures. Some nations do not assist US immigration authorities in ensuring that applicants for temporary/permanent residence, present no danger to US citizens.
ALL applicants for travel to the USA, even for a tourist visa, must meet our legal standards. Applicants must be free of communicable diseases, and be guaranteed that they will not become a public charge(welfare case). Applicants must be properly vetted to ensure that they will not overstay their visa. Applicants must not have been convicted of a felony in their nation of residence.
Unfortunately, there are innocent people in countries whose governments will not properly assist the US in determining their eligibility for admission to the USA. So, the USA is compelled to ban all travel from such nations. If this is prejudice and bigotry, then so be it.
There is nothing “subjective” about determining if an applicant to admission to the USA is carrying HIV/AIDS, Ebola, SARS, or a host of other communicable diseases.
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Gee, Charles have you ever noticed how many different “brands” of Christian there are? So which one is the definitive one that tells us all we need to know about Christianity? How many people who belong to a particular brand of Christianity could say that they and every other member of their brand believe all and exactly the same things as everyone else? Christianity has been quite anti-Semitic in the past, and I’m sure you would not have to look too far to find those who still harbor those beliefs. Just how deeply did you study Islam?
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Good comment but I’m afraid it unleashes another string of rants.
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Q Gee, Charles have you ever noticed how many different “brands” of Christian there are? So which one is the definitive one that tells us all we need to know about Christianity? How many people who belong to a particular brand of Christianity could say that they and every other member of their brand believe all and exactly the same things as everyone else? Christianity has been quite anti-Semitic in the past, and I’m sure you would not have to look too far to find those who still harbor those beliefs. Just how deeply did you study Islam? END Q
There are over 275 different “denominations” of the Christian religion.
I would not be able to tell which one is the one to go to, to learn everything about the Christian faith. I suggest that you try the New Testament, for information.
I am certain that there are differences of belief, internal to every denomination.
There are many “anti-Semitic” people who claim to be Christians. The sad truth, is that the concept still exists today. I once had a Christian minister told me, that it was a sin, to participate in a Seder meal, at the local synagogue.
I spent a year in Saudi Arabia. I made a thorough study of Islam. The ARAMCO Oil company requires all of its employees, to be “literate” on the basics, to ensure that no employee violates a religious law or custom, which working in Saudi Arabia. I obtained additional English-language materials from the Imams, who set up information centers in the shopping malls. I have read the Holy Qu’Ran (English translation). I have lectured on Islam, and terrorism, and Sharia Law. I have been studying Islam, and attending classes, and open houses at our local Mosque for over twenty years.
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Some British lawmakers, have called for “banning” President Trump from entering the United Kingdom. see
http://thehill.com/policy/international/362520-british-mp-trump-should-be-arrested-for-inciting-racial-hatred
The British have every right to ban anyone from their country, for any reason. Just like we do.
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I hope they do. I wish we could ban him too.
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