Mayor de Blasio wants to eliminate the exam that determines admission to three top-tier high schools and replace them with another formula that includes state test scores.
I have long been opposed to the dependence on one single standardized test for admission to these schools. No college uses such a narrow, archaic method of admitting students.
My view is that multiple measures make sense: the current test, an essay, teacher recommendations, rank in class, whatever.
Here is a brave article by a recent graduate of Stuyvesant who looked at the admission process for other elite high schools.
Danielle Eisenman, now a student at Harvard, writes:
“Let my people study.”
“A movement to keep the Specialized High School Standardized Admissions Test as the sole criterion for admission to specialized high schools appropriated the line, “Let my people go,” from the African American spiritual, “Go Down Moses.”
“The protesters — mostly low-income, first- and second-generation Asian immigrants — wish to prevent Mayor de Blasio from dismantling what they consider a meritocratic system. They blast de Blasio’s plan, which would instead admit a set percentage of the highest-performing students from each city middle school, as discriminatory; another popular sign says, “End racism.”
“As Kenneth Chiu, NYC Asian-American Democratic Club member, said in an interview on NY1, “They never had this problem when Stuyvesant was all white. Now, all of the sudden, they see one too many Chinese, and they say, ‘Hey, it’s not right.’” (Stuyvesant today is 74% Asian.)
“My mom, a Chinese immigrant, also supports the SHSAT. When I told her I was writing this article, she texted me, “Everyone I know will hate you,” telling me instead to write in support of the test.
“Though I sympathize with these concerns, the appropriation of “Let my people go” reveals how the campaign to keep the SHSAT reeks of irony and ignorance. De Blasio wishes to admit more black and Latino students, who, despite making up 67% of New York City’s public school system, represent just 10% of students offered enrollment in specialized high schools. Stuyvesant is only 0.69% black and 2.8% Latino. It’s hypocritical for protesters to invoke slavery, an experience that belongs to black Americans, when they’re advocating to keep in place a system that denies disadvantaged black Americans an opportunity for social mobility.
“Defenders of the current system, hailing the test as establishing a level playing field, argue that if more black and Latino students truly wanted to attend specialized high schools, they could just study harder. I have repeatedly heard my classmates champion this mindset, implying that black and Latino students are not as hardworking, and, even more disturbingly, not as smart as their Asian counterparts.
“The SHSAT, however, does not measure work ethic or intelligence, but a student’s ability to answer over 100 tedious multiple choice questions in under three hours. It tests for access to tutors and cram schools that teach students the skills they need to answer the questions without thinking.
“I flunked my first practice tests. After a prep class and some tutoring sessions, however, I knew all the tricks. If I hadn’t had access to that class, I likely would not have gotten into Stuy.
“The exam only tests for reading comprehension and math skills — no critical thinking, ambition, creativity or other qualities that predict success at specialized high schools….”
The legislature is unlikely to allow any change.

Without getting into what’s right and wrong about the linked piece I would like to make a few points:
There are plenty of people like me who do believe something should be done but are 100% against de Blasio’s plan because it has a number of problems and ultimately makes admissions to the specialized schools a political process. I wrote a couple of blog posts about it which I linked to in your previous post (http://cestlaz.github.io/posts/shsat-part2 and http://cestlaz.github.io/posts/shsat).
What’s more is that de Blasio could have already done a number of things but hasn’t done anything. He could:
Change the admissions requirements in the non big three and start collecting data on what works and what doesn’t
Add seats or schools so that you’re not adding in new students at the expense of ones who do well in the existing system
And the big one
Actually address issues we have in the impoverished schools.
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The problem with your suggestion is that changing the 5 much smaller specialized high schools does not address the elephant in the room.
And the elephant in the room is that there is a huge specialized high school of 3,200 students that has virtually no African-American students and very few Latino students. The new chancellor came in and saw what the rest of us have been basically ignoring for years and called it out. The Mayor was shamed because “The SHSAT must rule” is not a very good answer to why the population of a magnet school of 3200 students (one with arguably the best facilities) is not even 1% African-American. It is less than .7% and we have all simply accepted that it has to be this way because the SHSAT is supposed to be such a great tool for choosing students to attend.
Stuy has had years to do something about it, and instead their attitude seemed to be “we have such high standards and how can we lower them?”
No matter what changes happen within the admissions process, Stuy will still be challenging to get into and most of the kids will be qualified for the classes.
It seems to me that this debate is really about the efficacy of the SHSAT (or any other single test) as the best way to determine admissions to specialized high schools. And when we look at the facts, using a single test to determine admissions has been a failure.
There is a huge industry in New York City built around prepping students for the test, and the more money and political capital spent improving programs like the DREAM program, the more money that will be spent on test prep for more privileged students. (One thing that is rarely mentioned is how privileged the second largest group of students at Stuy – white students – are. In a city where nearly 40% of the white students are economically disadvantaged, only 13.5% of the white students at Stuy are poor and the percentage of low-income white students at Bx Sci is even lower. At Tech, 27% of the white students are economically disadvantaged, which suggests that a higher income may lead to higher SHSAT scores – maybe more expensive private tutoring is superior!)
This test prep arms race means that well-educated and highly qualified African-American and Latino students are almost completely absent from Stuyvesant, and it is not because they are unready for the work expected.
It is also a huge waste of time and resources because of how little the SHSAT reflects students’ ability to do well in school. Even schools like Stuy offer differentiated subject classes (Honors/AP) to qualified students that exclude the not quite as qualified. But they don’t use the SHSAT score to determine placement, they use topical placement tests and prior classroom performance instead.
According to Stuy’s own college profile, 16% of the students in the school never take even one AP class.
The 2017 Regents scores of Stuy students demonstrate that SHSAT scores are not destiny. I won’t cite all the data (unless someone asks!) but the bottom line is that anywhere from 16% to 26% of the Stuy students get lower than an 85% in Physics and Algebra 2. At a nearby specialized high school that includes students with 100 point lower SHSAT scores than Stuy, 103 African-American and Latino students got higher Regents scores (85%+) on their Physics Regents than 116 Stuyvesant students. Were those 103 African-American and Latino students disadvantaged because they attended a high school that admitted students with significantly lower SHSATs? Did it matter that they attended a specialized high school where only 50% of the students scored that high rather than 84%?
And has anyone using those arguments as the reason for keeping in place a system that results in one of the biggest jewels of the NYC public high school system having virtually no African-American students actually done a study to see how well the lowest scoring students at Stuy — or any other specialized high school — actually perform while there and how much a lower SHSAT score indicates the student is doomed to failure, especially if all their other academic indicators (GPAs, state test scores) are good?
So I don’t agree with the premise that it would be impossible for Stuy to use the Discovery Program to find strong African-American and Latino students who could handle the work. Perhaps like a not inconsiderable number of the white and Asian students already at Stuy, some of those Discovery Program students might elect to take non-AP classes. (Although because the SHSAT doesn’t test students’ writing ability, it is possible most would.) Certainly those Discovery Program students would be much poorer than the current Stuy student population.
While specialized high schools like Brooklyn Tech (15% African American/Latino, 61% economically disadvantaged) and Brooklyn Latin (28% African-American, 58% economically disadvantaged) and High School of Math, Science and Engineering (26% African American/Latino, 46% economically disadvantaged) are still not serving enough African-American and Latino students, I suspect that if Stuy’s demographics were more like Tech’s there would not be the same urgency to making a change.
The elephant in the room is that only 3% of the students at Stuy are African-American/Latino and the reason for that is the belief that a student’s score on the SHSAT is destiny and admitting academically strong and motivated students below the cut off for any specialized high school would ruin the academics.
I suspect motivation and organization plays a larger role in the final GPA of students at Stuy than their entering SHSAT score. The ability of a more affluent cohort to pay for private tutoring in classes where they struggle may also affect outcome.
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“the bottom line is that anywhere from 16% to 26% of the Stuy students get lower than an 85% in Physics and Algebra 2.” – at least they have Physics and Algebra 2, not some “physical science” and “Integrated Math 3” bullcrap, or no physics at all.
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The IQ of the Japanese population has been extensively studied by both Japanese and Western psychometricians and is about 107. This is similar to the average IQ of the South Korean population which is 108. 105 is probably a conservative estimate of the IQ of Northeast Asians. All over the world populations of Northeast Asian descent excel in academic performance.
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Are you the same racist “Jim” who used to post here years ago? You know your “IQ” theories have been debunked, right?
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There have been many studies of the average IQ of the Japanese population by both Japanese and Western psychometricians. Virtually all such studies show average population IQ’s well above 100. The empirical data about the average IQ of the Japanese population may not agree with your ideology but they are still the empirical data.
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Data on the South Korean population is very similar to that on the Japanese population.
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“IQ” itself is a bogus concept. It doesn’t exist. It is “measured” [sic] by tests designed to prove pre-existing beliefs about racial superiority. It’s completely circular.
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Many studies of the population IQ of the Japanese and South Korean population have been done by Western researchers. The results obtained by Western psychometricians did not differ significantly from those obtained by Japanese or Korean researchers. Do you seriously believe that all Western researchers on Japanese IQ are motivated by a desire to establish the “racial superiority” of the Japanese?
Individuals of Northeast Asian descent have high academic performance all over the world where such diaspora populations occur. I suppose you believe that in the US, Europe, South America, South Africa etc. teachers and school administrators are biased in favor of Northeast Asian descended populations. Apparently the entire population of the world is biased in favor of Northeast Asians since wherever in the world significant populations of Northeast Asian descent are found their academic performance is generally superior to all other groups except for Ashkenazi Jews.
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Jim,
Enough about IQ scores. Future comments about IQ will be deleted or blocked.
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Still waiting for you to answer Duane’s question, Jim: What is “intelligence”?
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Bring on those modern-day phrenologists, because Science !
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To reiterate what Dienne wrote: IQ as a construct lacks onto-epistemological validity. What do I mean by that statement? IQ tests purport to assess (some may falsely claim measure) the “intelligence” of a person. What is “intelligence”? Spearman’s “G”, an attempt at “unifying” what makes up supposed intelligence or something more akin to Gardner’s multiple intelligences. As it is there is no scientific agreement whatsoever on what constitutes this concept we call “intelligence”.
Jim, please answer the following: Since we have no coherent agreed upon definition of what intelligence is, how can we accurately assess that nothingness?
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Jim,
I suggest you read Yong Zhao’s brilliant book, “Who’s Afraid of the Big Bad Dragon? Why China Has the Best and the Worst School System in the World.” Asian nations have mastered the art of test prep. Also, widespread cheating. Inform yourself before commenting.
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Duane – Philosophical skepticism is the last ditch of intellectual obscurantism. Nobody argues philosophical skepticism if positive arguments are available.
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Jim,
All comments about racial superiority will be deleted.
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great read
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The belief in g is an article of faith among some, and is contested by others. Stephen J. Gould wrote Mismeasure of Man to Debunk g. The Bell Curve defended it and discussed its implications some later.
What no one has ever explained to me is why it is better to play an ace high rather than twos and threes.
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Eugenics is a debunked “science.” IQs are not different across cultures. You, Jim, are a racist.
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Diane, you wrote “Mayor de Blasio wants to eliminate the exam that determines admission to three top-tier high schools and replace them with another formula that includes state test scores.
I have long been opposed to the dependence on one single standardized test for admission to these schools. No college uses such a narrow, archaic method of admitting students.
My view is that multiple measures make sense: the current test, an essay, teacher recommendations, rank in class, whatever.”
Agreed.
Also agree with another poster, above on the need to deal with conditions throughout the district.
And, no surprise, I hope the mayor will ask for an expansion of the “New Vision” schools to help meet the demands for more schools that provide significant challenges. That is in part what dealing with conditions throughout the district would do and in part would happen if some teachers were asked to help create a few more schools.
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Colleges use multiple measures but every student going to a competitive college with the exception of special admits (athletes etc.) cross a certain SAT / ACT threshold. Not saying I agree with it but that’s the fact.
The college processes is also pretty arbitrary and super screwed up. I can’t tell you how many super qualified kids I’ve seen rejected while kids with much less impressive portfolios accepted. The colleges game the system to their own ends so they’re not a model for anything.
On the essay / rec etc front – those can be super gamed by the well to do so aren’t an answer. There’s also something to be said to make a small set of seats (after all the specialized schools represent only ~6% of city seats) for quiet kids who are strong at that manner of assessment.
Even so, I’m not saying that the current test is the right way but it’s not as simple as “multiple measures.”
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No college or university in the USA bases admission solely on one test score. Not one.
Furthermore, nearly 1,000 colleges are test-optional, including some very selective colleges, like Bates. Students do not have to present either an SAT or ACT score. Go to the FairTest website for the list.
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Diane,
Yes – absolutely correct but to hold colleges as a model is misguided as their process is pretty arbitrary and set up to suit their own ends rather than towards the most deserving students (whatever that means).
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Choosing students by the score on one test is stupid.
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First of all, it is good having a very specific test as a criteria for admission: no murky “holistic” dealings, when one does not know whether he had to volunteer in a hospital or play in a football team to get the needed score.
Second, I started completing this test, I could not complete the language part despite starting two times – it is that bad, exhausting, mind-numbing, and worst of all, it is imprecise. “Which sentence should be removed from here? Which is the best sentence to be inserted there?” To me it was torture, I’d rather wrote three essays, and I think this is what this test should be replaced with: an essay. Two-three predefined topics, and a free choice for those who feel adventurous.
The math portion is not particularly hard, but when I got to the middle of the math test I realized that I was getting short of time; some problems clearly should be solved by guessing, like you need to find GCD of 60 and 72 and you have 2, 4, 6, 8 as possible answers. Instead of calculating, just try the numbers starting from the highest, this is faster. I think this discourages students and teaches them to cheat, not by copying answers from an asnwer sheet, but by guessing, which I personally consider cheating. The math portion should be shortened, and no choices should be given: just solve problems and write down answers. This is a pervasive problem of American education: worksheets and multiple-answer problems.
There was an article elsewhere, which gave another reason for low admission of black/Latino students into these selective schools: many of these schools seem to be located in upscale locations, where there are enough local wealthy white kids. So, instead of abandoning the test the opposite should be done: the test should be the ONLY criteria for admission, local kids should not have preference.
And of course, schools overall must be improved and poverty problem must be dealt with, like zamanskym mentioned above. It is the only real solution, the the mayor cares for one.
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Local kids do not have preference for the exam schools. Admissions are citywide. Decisions to admit are based on one test score, not address or zip code.
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Ok then, I guess these are different elite schools: https://chalkbeat.org/posts/ny/2018/06/07/how-one-manhattan-district-has-preserved-its-own-set-of-elite-high-schools/ I am not from NYC.
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Cwazy wabbits, wankism, or in this case, elite wankism, has nothing to do
with ethics or intelligence. Wankism reinforces social inequality or social
disorder. Accepting and practice of these wanks, tightens our chains.
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🙂
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Agggh! Fix the public schools so kids learn how to think !
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I recommend Mike Z’s blog posts on this topic, which he’s referenced in his first comment on this thread.
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These are good blog posts indeed, but one of the comments was talking about an attitude towards learning on the one side and sports on another, rightly saying that one is expected to give 110% to become better in sports but not in sciences. Most of the stuff I agree with, but then he said: “Instead of settling for local high schools, we need more Black and Hispanic students willing to forego socializing with their middle school friends, willing to accept long commutes, and willing to be challenged by their peers to excel in the classroom.” This is crazy. First, what WE as a society need is that local high schools improved if not to the level of these specialized schools but at least to 70% of their level. This would be a true managerial victory instead of fiddling with test schemes under a pretence of equity.
Also, so many people already are foregoing socializing with friends in this country because socializing instead of working means ten or twenty bucks (or ten or twenty thousands, depends) less in their pockets. This country is all about money on the one hand, and has little social protection on the other hand, meaning that one is more or less well off while working, but if one loses work he is immediately without medical insurance, without paid vacation, his house and car payments are in jeopardy… There is so little time when people actually do socialize, so one may think that at least yearly years should be sacred, when one is still relatively unburdened. Losing this socialization early in life makes this society even more stratified and all about individuals not the society in general. But maybe this is one of the goals of the higher powers, to keep people worried about themselves, about their today and their immediate tomorrow. Divide et impera.
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“‘Instead of settling for local high schools, we need more Black and Hispanic students willing to forego socializing with their middle school friends, willing to accept long commutes, and willing to be challenged by their peers to excel in the classroom.’ This is crazy.”
It may be crazy, but it’s what the kids who go to these schools already do. NYC’s “choice” school system means separating kids from their school friends at each graduation point, not unlike what happens to high school friends when they go off to separate colleges. My daughter entered Stuyvesant this year and not one of her middle school friends accompanied here there, because they were all scattered at different schools. The more selective a high school is, the more sharply students will be separated from their middle school friends. She had to make new friends, and frankly it’s been hard, but lately she seems to have found a niche. Now she “socializes” probably more than she did in middle school, although most of that socialization is based in part on connections made in school or in extra-curricular activities.
Re: long commutes, these are schools that students come to from all over the city. Commutes of an hour and a half are not that unusual.
And I assume you don’t think it’s crazy to be willing to be challenged by one’s peers in the classroom.
It seems to me that people outside of NYC have a very difficult time comprehending what these schools are and how they work, not to mention what the larger NYC system is like. If your experience is one of local neighborhood schools, where kids go one of a few local elementary schools, a couple local middle schools, and one or two local high schools, then NYC’s system is not going to make any sense to you.
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“If your experience is one of local neighborhood schools, where kids go one of a few local elementary schools, a couple local middle schools, and one or two local high schools…” – no, this was not my experience.
I don’t mind perseverance, I just lament that making friends and then spending time with them is damn hard in this country. As if it is not enough they re-shuffle kids every year even within the same school, but to get into one of these specialized schools one is to forget about one’s friends altogether. Dog eats dog.
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I take your point, BackAgain.
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My suggestion is this: no more elite, selective public high schools. Have neighborhood schools, each of enough size (Bill Gates, you were wrong) to offer an extensive curriculum that offers students many choices. As such, each school would have the resources to serve the needs of their population, however diverse or homogenous it might be. No open enrollment, except to contagious schools on a limited basis. Return to the notion of parents/students as citizens who aspire to improve their school, rather than consumers that shop/compete in the “market.” Private schools, who should never get a dime of public money, can set so called elite schools if they want to.
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I agree completely. Well said. The whole point of “elite” and “selective” schools is to pacify parents who don’t want their kid in school with “those” kids. But in fact, “good kids” being in school with “those kids” serves all kids, especially if the “good” (read: affluent) families are motivated to use their money, time and other resources to improve their local schools rather than flee from them.
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*Contiguous, not contagious!
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Chris Hayes speaks to these issues from a historical perspective in Teilight ofthe Elites: America After Meritocracy . Worth the read.
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Check out his CV on Wikipedia:
Hunter College High School for Gifted Students
College: Brown (BA philosophy)
He is a stunning example of meritocracy in action.
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I read and concur with this op ed piece by Minh-Ha T. Pham, a scholar of Asian-American studies whose child attends New York City public schools, that appeared in yesterday’s NYTimes titled “De Blasio’s Plan for NYC Schools Isn’t Anti-Asian. It’s Anti-Racist” (I couldn’t post the link).
Her implicit point is that using tests to sort and select children is foolish and, consequently, any effort to identify who belongs in an “elite” school is equally foolish. She writes:
“All kids deserve a top-rate education in schools with qualified teachers and ample support staff and a wealth of curriculum materials and supplies. All of our schools should be elite schools.”
Alas, though, I fear that you are right, Diane, in your concluding sentence: the legislature is unlikely to allow any change.
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It is bizarre that the state legislature controls admissions standards for the city’s specialized high schools
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Before I retired I used to proctor the entry exam for the elite schools in Buffalo for the highly competitive City Honors (5-12) and Gifted and a Talented program at Olmsted (K-12).
There were numerous components, including evaluations by parents and teachers, a psychological evaluation, an essay (for City Honors), and a written exam focusing on critical thinking skills (no reading passages). Kindergarteners have an interview with the GT teachers and High Schoolers at Olmsted take a creativity test. School averages and state test scores are also taken into consideration. When the exams are graded it is “blind” meaning the identity and details are not revealed. There is a committee who reviews the entire “packet” with the folder, once again, not containing any identifying information.
Of course, there are accusations that entry into these elite schools are “fixed”, especially when someone’s child doesn’t get in (and I know of several worthy children who didn’t make the cut), but from my participation the process seems above board. Of course, I’m not privy on what happens behind the scenes (so called “political” favors) or if ultimately favoritism plays a role, although I do know that ultimately some choices are subjective.
In any case, it’s as fair as such a selective process can be and although the privileged white population is largely represented, there is also quite a bit of diversity. Both schools also have special education students and a class of Autistic children.
Ultimately, students who cannot do the work are at a disadvantage and parents who demand their children should attend aren’t doing their offspring any favors if they can’t keep up with the curriculum. Even so, it requires more than intelligence to be successful, but a willingness to do the work and put in the effort. Some kids just don’t want to work that hard. It depends on their motivation (not the desires of their parents).
I’m not sure how it works in NYC, but I’m sure that it’s similar. There is a fierce competition for a limited number of spots with numerous worthy choices on the waiting list and others lucky that they were forced to go to a different high school.
There is always more to the story.
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