When I first saw that now-famous photograph of Mike Flynn at Vladimir Putin’s head table in Moscow in 2015, I immediately recognized Jill Stein sitting at the same table, to the right, in the foreground. I wondered why she was there. I googled and learned that leaders of the Green Party in Russia were angry at her for not calling out Putin for his egregious human rights abuses. I wondered why no one in the media questioned why she was there or even noticed her presence.
I just discovered in my browsing that last June “Mother Jones” picked up the storynoticed her attendance in Moscow, noticed she was seated at the head table. When Stein was asked why she was there, she said she went to Moscow “to lay out some of my foreign policy proposals and get Russian reactions to them.” Why would a candidate for the American Presidency travel to Moscow to do that? That is certainly not customary. Since when do presidential candidates seek out the Russian reaction to their ideas about American foreign policy before they run for Office?
Then she said she actually didn’t speak to any Russians. She shook Putin’s hand and had no idea who else was at the head table. So she never got a chance to “to lay out some of my foreign policy proposals and get Russian reactions to them.” There was no laying out of ideas and no reactions to them. So why was she there? Why was she at the head table with Putin? Why didn’t anyone speak to her? In the future, will it be routine for all presidential candidates to check in with Putin first?
Stein received 1 million votes. Was she a spoiler who threw the election to Trump?
My mind boggles thinking of the many books that will be written about the 2016 election.
Diane Ravitch's blog 
Some of her 2016 supporters have questions as well about her ties to Russia and to Putin. Who extended the invitation? Who paid for the trip and hotel expenses? Why was she invited? Questions demanding answers.
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The Russian Green Party was not happy to see her in Moscow.
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When an election is that close, anything can be a reason for a loss. I have read that third party votes in key precincts made a difference, though. Why was she there? Because she thinks she is terribly important, I suppose. I am surprised she didn’t take Susan Sarandon with her. Oh wait, that would have deflected attention from her. I think my 2018 resolution will be to focus on the 2018 “swing” congressional races–volunteer, walk, phone etc. I am looking forward to it.
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She was very clear in her interviews that she decidedly paid her own way & lodging. She was also there at that RT dinner because she had been previously interviewed by RT and they were inviting past interviewees to their 10th Anniversary celebration. It’s also why Rocky Anderson was there. You might notice that the corporate US media doesn’t afford much coverage to minor party candidates and their campaigns. If we enjoyed fair coverage, if they were truly non-partisan, there would not be the need to seek out/accept invites of, international media organizations, perhaps.
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I am constantly surprised that people just don’t do their research. I’m sure you’re all familiar with the picture, but you never wondered which publication the picture was from? I’m running to a lot of these people on Threads, especially people who imagine themselves political influencers. No curiosity though whatsoever and asking me to put up the link to the Mother Jones article that answers your questions?
That’s how I stumbled onto this site, as someone has insisted the pic is featured in another pop culture mag, not MJ.
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I have to say, I saw that photo awhile ago and I also wondered…
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I’m sure she was there ONLY to fight the neoliberal parasitic corporate class and remind everyone that there was no difference between Trump and KILLary.
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Tim,
My friends at the Shanker Institute ask that you please stop using their IT address on your comments as they don’t know who you are.
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You’d think they would be happy to have traffic driven to the archives of Shanker’s “Where We Stand” columns. I’ve changed it to a direct link.
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Tim,
Do you work for the New York State United Teachers?
If not, stop using their electronic ID.
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Wow…what’s THAT about, Tim? Why would you want to misrepresent yourself like that?
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I think it’s just the web site that you get directed to when you click on the WordPress “gravatar.” You can set it to any web site you want (or no web site at all).
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Let’s keep calm, everyone! There isn’t any rule that says you can’t put a website of your choosing into your WordPress profile. I think the archived Shanker columns make for fascinating reading, and I doubt very, very much that anyone will mistake me for a representative or employee of the Shanker Institute or NYSUT.
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Tim,
Please stop signing in as an employee of the Shanker Institute or NYSUT.
It is deception and a lie. Why don’t you sign in from Success Academy?
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Actually, it’s the web site that you get directed to when you click on the commenter’s name, not their gravatar. Mine now takes you to a video of British heavyweight pugilist Tyson Fury punching himself in the face.
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And btw, you’re a fine guitarist.
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Who? Tim?
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Holy moly canoli! The jig’s up!
I had no idea you could just click on the name and find out all that info.
Ugh…
Well…unless you’re talking about Tim or Diane, I thank you for the compliment, FLERP! (and the heads up). I love the guitar. It’s a wonderful world.
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I’m a 30-year now-and-again axeman myself, although I’ve gotten terrible the last couple years.
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Yes, wanted to give you a heads up, but there’s no direct messaging capability that I’m aware of, so I thought that reference would be the equivalent.
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🙂
As one artist to another, FLERP: don’t let yourself get too rusty, mate. It’s so, so, sooo much easier to maintain the technique than to get it back. Especially as we age. On the advice of a mentor, years ago; I just do scales, arpeggios and studies when I’m uninspired. Have to force myself at times…but it’s worth the effort when the muse returns.
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Is there a means to changing or completely deleting the link that’s associated with my name? I’m not looking for advertising on this blog.
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Hi, gitapik,
Go to “account settings” on WordPress, the change or delete what is in the “Web Address (Shown publicly when you comment on blogs.)” field.
Good luck.
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Tim,
Unless you are using the NYSUT server, please change your alleged IP. It is false and deceptive. I will not Post anymore comments until you stop representing yourself as an employee of the union.
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Diane, see my comment on this toward the bottom of the thread. Putting a link in your username is not a representation of your identity. Your insistence to the contrary is a little odd. Is there some reason you don’t want people reading Shanker’s work?
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Tim identified himself in many comments as a staff member at the Shanker Institute. I checked, and he is not. Now he identifies himself with the New York State teachers union. That too is false. He has to make up a more original ID and not pretend to work for Shanker or the union.
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Again, putting a web site link on your name is not “identifying” yourself as someone who works whoever runs the web site. My name directs to a YouTube video. That doesn’t mean I’m identifying myself as YouTube or pretending to work for YouTube. I’ve said this multiple times and it’s not difficult to understand, but it seems you’ve made up your mind to keep repeating the same thing. So this’ll be my last comment on the matter.
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There are many false tags to protect identity. Given the fact that Tim posts 98% of his comments in defense of Success Academy and in opposition to unions, it is galling—or chutzpah—for him to pretend to work for the Shanker Institute or the Union. Let him pretend to be a YouTube video. One preferably extolling Eva.
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Speaking for myself and what I’m seeing here, FLERP!:
I’m not sure whether he’s ever stated such on a post, here, but by clicking on Tim’s link, the casual observer could easily take for granted that he is associated with and is a member of the Shanker Institute and/or a teachers union. At the least, the link can cast the allusion that Tim ascribes to the union oriented philosophy of both those organizations.
We often base our opinions of what we read according to where the poster is “coming from”. It helps to get an idea of the authenticity of what’s being presented.
My questions:
1) Does Tim admire and/or fight the good fight on behalf of our unions?
2) If not, then why is he posting links that could make someone believe otherwise?
I know you’ve dropped out of the conversation…I’m just putting this out there as an explanation for where I’m, personally, coming from.
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Yeah. You have to go into the profile settings in your WordPress account. There’s a form where you can enter a url — just delete it.
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Thanks. Have a good day.
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Hah…Technology Lesson for 12/7/17:
“There is no Privacy on the Internet”
Much for the info, folks, but when I remove my url and click on my name, a sad computer face appears next to the explanation that they can’t reach my site address, followed by a suggestion which shows the correct (aka: same) site address.
So be it. I yam wot I yam.
The price of fame without fortune.
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Hey, she’s also the one who insisted on doing the recounts in several states, what happened there?
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Voting for Stein in the general election was a total waste. And yet Chris Hedges, Cornel West, Jimmy Dore and Susan Sarandon(?) (so far as I know), did indeed vote for Stein because Hillary was such an evil demon from the bowels of hell, according to them. If HRC were president, there would be no Neil Gorsuch on the SCOTUS and no right wingers heading to the lower courts.
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If a few hundred thousand actual registered Democrats had voted for their own party candidate, instead of Trump, we also wouldn’t have Gorsuch et al. My impression is that centrist men are not quite as open toward a woman heading the ticket as many had assumed.
But, be that as it may, no candidate or party owns anyone’s votes. And there never was a request or any gracious overture between the DP and voters of parties on the left, asking for our vote. There’s just smug expectation. And quite a few independent voters didn’t want to vote for either major party, but did vote down ballot. That’s very important as well, and should be considered when insulting people.
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In all seriousness, it is well documented that Russia exploited America’s race problem during the election, so it’s not so far-fetched to think they would exploit “Hillary is really WORSE than Trump when you think about it!” types.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/10/russia-facebook-race/542796/
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Hillary Clinton (aka “Kissinger’s pal”) advised voters to “Vote your conscience.” I did. I voted for Jill Stein. My vote wasn’t wasted, and Jill Stein was not a spoiler. I voted for a candidate supporting Medicare for All, tuition free college, an end to all fracking, and a Green New Deal. Democrats should stop red-baiting progressives. McCarthyism is sooooooooooooo twentieth century.
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But why was she sitting at Putin’s table?
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Because Putin knew it would make Democrats’ heads pop off.
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And she did Putin’s bidding?!
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I could have sworn we had a ban on this topic. I thought we were all supposed to unite and make happy and stop relitigating the 2016 election.
Anyway, most of Stein’s votes came from heavily blue states that went to Hillary anyway. To whatever extent Stein was a spoiler (if any), one seriously has to ask why it was that close in a contest between a pig and The Most Qualified Candidate Ever (TM).
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Phd dissertations, investigative reporting, will lead to best sellers and award winning films – “The Post,” a Washington Post Pentagon Papers bio-pic is opening in a few weeks … we have a ,long, log way to go to unearth the truth
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I thought we were done with 2016 election analysis on this blog, but here we are…
That being the case, I’ll climb out on a limb and say that Dmitri, my Russian control agent, wants me to be quiet, discrete and polite about this, but that I’m far too petty for that, and will point out that the entire Russian collusion/”election hacking” case is collapsing into the big nothingburger it always was. And, ha (!), I told you so…
Meanwhile, decent (and some not-so-decent) people have wasted a year indulging in magical thinking, deluding themselves into believing that some smoking gun would be revealed and result in Trump being removed from the stage. Good luck with that; in fact, His Orangeness is on a roll at the moment, even if Mueller eventually gets him via corruption charges – always the more likely result – instead of “treason.”
Flynn’s guilty plea on a Martha Stewart-like charge shows that there’s no there there.
Consequently, maybe it’s time to engage in actual politics, here in the US, in unfashionable locales, and give up the misguided idea that some Deep State deus ex machina will intervene and save us.
Sorry, but we can only save ourselves.
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I have no inside information, but it looks very unlikely that Mueller will save us. What looks possible is impeachment on the obstruction of justice charge. The House would probably decline to impeach, leaving us with Trump. Or if Trump is removed or steps down, Pence steps in, leaving us where we have always been: in need of a political solution.
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Impeachment or having sufficient grounds for an impeachment vote would seriously hamstring the GOP’s agenda and make 2018 and 2020 far easier for the Dems.
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In theory, yeah. Gut says they blow it.
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If the Russians don’t hack the electronic voting machines or social media again.
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Amateur hackers had a Convention last summer in Las Vegas, where they assembled every electronic voting machine. The challenge was: see if you can hack into this machine. The hackers hacked into every one of them. Piece of cake.
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What started out with hyperventilation about “treason” – you want “treason?” look at the tax bill – and “Russian hacking of the election” is devolving into a find-whatever-you-can effort to get Trump on obstruction of justice or corruption charges.
After all of that hysteria, we learned that the country actually interfering with US policy is Israel, as the Flynn indictment clearly shows.
Of course Trump is corrupt, but so is much of the country, and this investigation has the same problem with political credibility as Kenneth Starr’s investigation into Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky, which led to Clinton’s impeachment. It’s utter folly to think that impeachment will save us from Trump, let alone Trumpism.
Impeachment is a false hope, because 1) it ain’t gonna happen – Trump will be convinced to resign as a “winner” if and when the GOP decides he’s more trouble than he’s worth; until then, he stays – and 2) because it’s not a desirable outcome, since it will worsen partisan rancor and polarization, and give Democrats false hope over their political prospects outside their big city/college town base.
Even if it comes about, President Pence is the Booby Prize. Here, Dems, go fetch…
You want to get rid of Trump and Trumpism? Then start winning elections, by offering universal material benefits to people: single-payer health care, free college and a jobs guarantee…
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The answer is “No”. She wasn’t a ‘spoiler’ because there wasn’t a single State in which she made a difference. The people who voted for Stein would have voted for Mickey Mouse rather than Trump or Clinton.
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This.
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Very, very (very) tangentially related to this: John Anderson passed away yesterday. He inspired me at the end of my freshman year in college and I ended up running his campaign in the city I lived in as a sophomore. I remember debating other surrogates, well known political figures who were much more experienced than me. But I believed in his message, probably more so as it became obvious our goal was 5% in order to qualify for matching funds to pay campaign debts. I remember arguing at a B’nai B’rith forum about the same topics we argue about today. How we couldn’t keep treating Palestinians as dogs and expect a good outcome, how Jerusalem should not be recognized as the Israeli capital, which now our Dear Leader has done, damn the consequences. I remember how his domestic agenda valued unions, teachers, fair taxes and reduced military spending. He was the last liberal Republican.
As I look back, Carter looks much better than he did when I was idealistic. Reagan turned out to be much, much worse than we could have imagined, especially when seen through the lenses of long-term memory. We were vilified by Democrats for putting Reagan in office. But even with our votes, Carter would not have won. But I feel immense pride and satisfaction for having worked for Anderson. His positions were prescient, his voice was clear.
When I compare him to Stein, there is none. She was purely a protest vote. She had no agenda that will stand the test of time. She had no coherent vision of where this country should strive to be. She is an empty vessel. I feel somewhat ashamed that I considered voting for her, even if it was for just an instant. I’m thankful that I found the voices on this blog to straighten me out; to recognize what mattered. Even though I still have to buck myself up more often than I wish I had to, I want to thank you all for helping me to find my idealism again. John Anderson’s passing reminded me of what substantive idealism was, of what a great man he was, and why this is likely the last time I’ll ever think of Jill Stein ever again.
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No coherent vision? Save the planet, green economy, Medicare for all, jobs/income as a right, disentangling the U.S. from foreign aggression, economic justice, anti-privatization? There’s no vision there? Tell me which of these planks you disagree with: https://www.jill2016.com/platform
On the other hand, I’d like to know what Hillary’s vision was? “No we can’t”? “Let me see which way the wind is blowing”?
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Much like your arguments, she cobbled together a bunch of flakey ideas into a package of weak tea.
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“Flaky ideas”. Okay then, you’re going with “No we can’t”. Thanks.
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I’ll admit, you tire me with your worn out opposition to everything. I apologize for using the word “flakey” but do not for “weak tea.” The reason I referenced John Anderson—which was the topic of my post—is that he was the only third party candidate in my lifetime who offered an agenda and ideas that one could be for. It seems to me that Perot, Nader, and Stein are negative candidates. I’ll resume ignoring your posts from now on.
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Thanks, Greg.
I went to an event last night where Hillary spoke. It was a celebration of the 25th anniversary of the rabbi at the nation’s largest LGBT synagogue. Hillary was humble, eloquent, inspirational. I’m tired of the Hillary bashing. It is stale and pointless. Once you kick her again, what next?
It seems to me like someone in 1936 complaining about the last German leader of Weimar—again and again—but not saying anything about Hitler.
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So one can’t be for Medicare for All? Tuition free higher education? Livable wages? Job protections? Public education? Clean energy?
Not one thing in that link is anti. It’s all a positive vision of what the world could be. It’s Hillary and the Democrats who are all anti – their whole vision boils down to “we’re not Trump”. Striving for anything more than that is, in the words of many Democrats, “pie in the sky” – juvenile dreams of “Bernie Bros” living in their parents’ basement.
If this is the vision Democrats have to offer while dismissing Stein’s vision as “weak tea”, then please don’t count on my vote (and, I’m guessing, the votes of many other “Bernie Bros”). I hope you’re enjoying Trump. Can’t say that I am.
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Dienne, this is the first time in a year that I can remember your hinting at a criticism of Trump. Stop the Hillary vitriol. I’m asking now. Next time, I will delete the Hillary bashing. It’s over. We have a senile rightwing billionaire in the Oval Office. Start dealing with reality instead of hating Hillary. It’s beginning to sound pathological.
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Excuse me, Dienne. Since when do American candidates for president take their ideas to Putin to run their ideas past him? As Stein said, no one spoke to her? Why was she there? Putin is not a Communist. He is not a Socialist. He has supported fascist candidates in France, Germany, and the U.S.
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OMG, you have GOT to be kidding me, Diane! I’ll keep saying it, you’re better than this. You’ve let your loathing of Trump get the better of you. I know you have read my many, many posts where I routinely refer to Trump as “the odious orange one” and many, many other slurs. In fact, I challenge you to find any single post where I’ve had anything good to say about him.
What I have said, and what I will continue to say is that if your only choices are a poop sandwich or a dirt sandwich, that does not make the dirt sandwich edible.
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Hillary is a mainstream political figure who had progressive goals. Trump is determined to destroy healthcare, the environment, civil rights, our heritage of national parks, public education, our relations with our allies, and the foreign service.
As much as I criticized Obama, he had dignity. Trump has none. Obama and Hillary are thoughtful and intelligent. Trump, as Tillerson said, is a moron.
The tax plans that passed in the House and the Senate are breathtaking in transferring wealth from the 99% to the 1%.
Please stop whining about Hillary. I will delete further attacks on her. You regurgitate the 25-year-Old attacks by the right wingers. Enough.
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I guess you consider the truth to be “attacks”. I have never posted anything that is not thoroughly documented.
I’d still like an apology for your statement that I have never before criticized Trump when you know perfectly well I have.
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If you have criticized Trump I missed it. I apologize if you did.
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GregB,
I also voted for Anderson and judged Carter too harshly. And you are absolutely right about the Jill Stein voters. I think the replies by them could not make that more clear.
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Now ya see that, I disliked Carter ,but was smart enough to vote for him.
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Joel, you’re not the man I thought you were. 😜
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GregB
Reagan frightened the hell out of me . It was a gift that keeps on giving. . Of course that could have changed in 92 and 08 . And here we are .
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Joel, Reagan didn’t frighten the hell out of me then because I was sure people couldn’t possibly buy what he was selling if he were to be elected. If I could go back in a time machine, I’m still not sure I’d go all out for Carter. The ex-president has captivated me more.
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Carter was the only president who didn’t take us to war. The Republicans portrayed that as a sign of weakness and used it ad nauseam in the Reagan campaign.
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Yes, Gitapik, that was something of which I was unaware (or chose not to pay attention to) at the time. Another example of how much better Carter looks in retrospect.
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Disappointed to see Diane close and re-open the 2016 election debate only when it suits her. But, her blog…
I voted for Jill Stein and I voted for Ralph Nader – twice! Among the many problems of the Democratic party is the continued vote-shaming of left-leaning third party voters. It’s disgraceful and unseemly. This is an education blog, and as Diane rightfully points out time and again, the Dems have been horrible on that issue. And Clinton looked no better.
As far as Diane trying to unearth some Russian/Stein conspiracy, I quote Leonid M. Volkov, (Putin opposition leader) on the American media fixation with Russian election interference: “Enough already!”
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Peter, have you ever seen a candidate for the presidency whose campaign and family were so deeply intertwined with representatives of a foreign government, any foreign government?
It is my Blog, and I write what I want.
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Actually, Diane, the Flynn indictment show that the “representatives of a foreign government, any foreign government” intruding upon the functioning of the US government were those of israel, not Russia.
Flynn is a corrupt sleazebag (as is Trump), but his December, ’16 meetings with Kislyak, insofar as we can tell, were typical, behind-the-scenes diplomatic discussions and horse trading.
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Why do you want to contribute to the “red scare” “red baiting atmosphere”atmosphere?
Trump will not be the victim of this instead as usual it will be any progressive that genuinely opposes the capitalist system who historically have been and will be the victims of these types of pogroms.
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Nelson,
Putin is not a Red. He is an oligarch and a kleptocrat.
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My God, Nelson. Is this why the far Left gives Putin a pass? Do they think Russia is still Communist???
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Most Americans believe Russia is still Communist, so the term “red baiting” is still permissible.
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You can’t “red bait” when there are no reds.
Putin is not a “red.” He is a plutocrat and a dictator. He makes and breaks oligarchs and billionaires.
If there are some Americans who are dumb enough to think he is a Communist, that doesn’t change who he is.
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The world has changed so much but the media hasn’t reported all of it.
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“But both pre-election polls and the national exit poll suggests that a lot of them wouldn’t have voted at all, if they’d been forced to pick between the two major candidates. The breakdown might have been something like 35 percent Clinton, 10 percent Trump and 55 percent wouldn’t vote. That doesn’t wind up netting very many votes for HRC.”….. …..
“natesilver: Y’know, I covered the campaign. The 2016 campaign was a friend of mine. And Jill Stein was a pretty bleeping minor story in the 2016 campaign.”….
“natesilver: The case that Comey swung the election outcome is pretty straightforward, and easier to disentangle from everything else than a lot of things. Clinton’s national lead was cut from about 6 percentage points to 3 points after the Comey letter. And while a 6-point lead is relatively safe, a 3-point lead just isn’t, especially given Clinton’s weakness in the Electoral College. Maybe not all of that was Comey, but the timing lines up pretty well and it was probably enough to make a difference given how close the election was. So could a lot of other things, of course.”
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/jill-stein-democratic-spoiler-or-scapegoat/
This question might be asked, Why after the greatest economic crises since the Great Depression was this election even close. Why did so many people feel that the system had to be blown up on both sides of the isle.
In 1940 Franklyn Roosevelt ran for an unprecedented third term , Willkie ran on economics that the economy was still sluggish . The unemployment rate was 14.6 %
It had been 5.2 % in in the 1920s .
FRANKLYN ROOSEVELT WON BY 10% . The Electoral college vote 449 to 82 . Those dumb voters get it .
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It is not “the system” that was blown up. It was the federal government, the social safety net, healthcare, environmental protection, science, and civil rights. Did Trump voters want that?
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Yes they did .
“While the rest of the country gawked at Louisiana and the Duke fiasco, Walker Percy, a Louisiana author, gave a prophetic warning to The New York Times.
“Don’t make the mistake of thinking David Duke is a unique phenomenon confined to Louisiana rednecks and yahoos. He’s not,” Percy said. “He’s not just appealing to the old Klan constituency, he’s appealing to the white middle class. And don’t think that he or somebody like him won’t appeal to the white middle class of Chicago or Queens.”
A few days after Duke’s strong showing, the Queens-born businessman Donald Trump appeared on CNN’s Larry King Live.
“It’s anger. I mean, that’s an anger vote. People are angry about what’s happened. People are angry about the jobs. If you look at Louisiana, they’re really in deep trouble,” Trump told King.. “…….
“Nearly a year into his presidency, Trump has reneged or faltered on many of his biggest campaign promises—on renegotiating NAFTA, punishing China, and replacing the Affordable Care Act with something that preserves all its popular provisions but with none of its drawbacks. But his commitment to endorsing state violence to remake the country into something resembling an idealized past has not wavered.
He made a farce of his populist campaign by putting bankers in charge of the economy and industry insiders at the head of the federal agencies established to regulate their businesses. But other campaign promises have been more faithfully enacted: his ban on travelers from Muslim-majority countries; the unleashing of immigration-enforcement agencies against anyone in the country illegally regardless of whether he poses a danger; an attempt to cut legal immigration in half; and an abdication of the Justice Department’s constitutional responsibility to protect black Americans from corrupt or abusive police, discriminatory financial practices, and voter suppression. In his own stumbling manner, Trump has pursued the race-based agenda promoted during his campaign. As the president continues to pursue a program that places the social and political hegemony of white Christians at its core, his supporters have shown few signs of abandoning him.
One hundred thirty-nine years since Reconstruction, and half a century since the tail end of the civil-rights movement, a majority of white voters backed a candidate who explicitly pledged to use the power of the state against people of color and religious minorities, and stood by him as that pledge has been among the few to survive the first year of his presidency. Their support was enough to win the White House, and has solidified a return to a politics of white identity that has been one of the most destructive forces in American history. This all occurred before the eyes of a disbelieving press and political class, who plunged into fierce denial about how and why this had happened. That is the story of the 2016 election.”
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/11/the-nationalists-delusion/546356/
Add to this group a small % of voters who for economic reasons or sheer ignorance voted for Trump . Voted because Hillary was Hillary and I will say no more , except that Comey confirmed their suspicions, the re -traction days before the election appearing on page 45 in their brains. They voted for Trump or stayed home . . As did many Black voters who after not seeing substantial improvement under Obama were never going to come out in the numbers they did in 08 & 12 perhaps even if Obama were to be allowed a third term . They returned to normal turn out.
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This is truly not about the 2016 election results it’s about what’s happening NOW.
One has to wonder to what extent our democracy has been upended. I’m not a conspiracy theory type but it seems the purpose of things that happened is much, much larger then we know or may ever know!
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All the red-baiting in the world will not bully progressives who believe the democratic party has sold out to corporate interests into towing the party line.
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Arts Smart
They are two separate issues . It is not Red bating to see that the current Russian Government is acting in what it perceives to be its National interest which happens to be the interest of a criminal enterprise . As American foreign policy can be seen as in the interest of corporate oligarchy. So I do not condemn the Russians for their actions which are no different than our countless interference’s in other Democracies . As recent as Argentina and Brazil and even Venezuela. .
Nor do I condemn their actions in Eastern Europe . That does not mean I like them, but I doubt we would be happy with a hostile power in the Northern Hemisphere .
How ever for Americans to have worked with a hostile foreign power as defined by American sanctions of the previous administration.To do so for financial gain or political advantage, is not collusion but treason.
That said “The Democrats’ ability to adequately respond to this one-sided class war, waged by GOP donors and their legislative puppets, is in doubt. The party of Franklin Roosevelt today lacks the moral authority—and the appetite—to take on this challenge because, as Theo Anderson notes in this month’s print cover story, “The party’s New Deal-era critique of concentrated wealth and power has been supplanted by a corporate-friendly worldview.” ( In These Times )
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Criticizing Putin and his party of billionaire oligarchs is not Red baiting.
Putin is a kleptocrat, not a Communist.
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I will repeat it to you: Criticizing Putin is not Red baiting. He is not a man of the left. He is a kleptocrat, who makes and breaks oligarchs.
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No, but implying that people who refuse to toe the Democratic establishment line are Putin pawns is red baiting.
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Who are the Reds? You mean “red states”?
There are no Reds in Russia, at least not in the government. Any real Reds are in jail.
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“Red-baiting” is a form of scapegoating, witch-hunting and political misdirection, which is precisely what happens when otherwise sensible people see Putin and his agents under every bed.
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Michael, who got scapegoated? Do you really want to be blind to Russian hacking of our election? Why should Putin choose our president?
The French recognized Putin’s electronic efforts to promote Marine LePen and they blocked them. The Brits recognized in retrospect that Russian government hackers pushed Brexit.
Facebook and Twitter acknowledged thousands of accounts owned by Russian hackers, pretending to be the folks next door, sowing racial and political divisions last year.
You can pretend that Putin is beloved Uncle Joe Stalin or recognize him for what he is. A cunning KGB agent, controlling billions of dollars and a stable of oligarchs.
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Diane, as a historian, I’d expect you to be more precise in your language. I’d also expect you to not engage in “what-aboutism”/changing the subject, which is what you just did by changing the topic from the nature of red-baiting, to Putin and his dastardly deeds (which happen to include destroying ISIS, btw) and why I’m a chump for “supporting” them.
Do you really believe that Putin “hacked” the election, if by that is meant getting into the codes for the electronic voting machines? Because that’s what “hacking” would mean, not drop-in-the-bucket incompetent Facebook posts, and not standard propaganda broadcasts (which very few Americans receive via their cable packages) by RT or Sputnik.
Really, have you or anyone you know EVER overheard someone say, “Hey, did you see RT last night?”
If you do believe Putin “hacked” the election, according to that reasonable definition, you don’t have a lot of company, because there’s been no evidence of that whatsoever. Even the “17 intelligence agencies” that gave their “assessment” (not proof) of Russian election interference have not made that claim, let alone provided evidence for it.
In fact, as I pointed out, the only foreign interference the Flynn indictment has indicated was carried out by Israel, an observation that has been answered on this site and virtually everywhere else by crickets…
By the way, it’s also typical of red-baiting episodes that people who challenge their falsity, destructiveness and un-American-ness are inevitably accused of being dupes and fellow travelers of whomever the current “Red” Demon is. Thus your accusing me of having a secret, slavish love for Pooty Poo and Uncle Joe.
It’s all quite unworthy, and worse, it’s a political dead end, guaranteeing the continued success of Trumpism.
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Michael,
We shall see what Mueller concludes. I am entitled to my views as you are entitled to yours. I haven’t called names, other than Trump. Who, as the Secretary of State said, is a moron. I also believe he is a tool of Putin. In my lifetime, I have never seen a presidential candidate who had so many entanglements with a foreign government during his campaign.
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It doesn’t matter that Russia is no longer communist. The objective of this new form of red-baiting is to shut up the opposition. It’s the same old thing. Stop democrats from speaking out against US militarism and corporatism in the party. Bernie Sanders, Chris Hedges, Susan Sarandon, Robert Scheer, Jill Stein, and Oliver Stone have all been accused of colluding with the Russians. The democrats didn’t lose the election by selling out to corporate interests and abandoning the working class. It was those damn Ruskies or Comey! I think democrats would be better served by reforming the party and becoming a true champion of the working class, rather than insinuating that people who criticize it are Russian operatives.
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Consider the possibility that both are true. The Democrats got too cozy with Wall Street. They became too dependent on rich donors. And Putin wanted Trump elected, as he interfered—or tried to interfere—in the French and German elections to help fascists. Why did Donald Trump Jr meet with Russians? Why did Flynn?why did Sessions? Why did Kushner?
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Arts, cite one example of Bernie Sanders or Chris Hedges (unless you consider at RT as colluding) being “accused of colluding with the Russians”. The others don’t concern me because they have no influence. And I think you miss the point. It’s not about Russians, it’s about foreign influences on the American electorate, regardless of who they are. I know of no examples of candidates conferring with foreign leaders in a national elections except for one example: Israel. And while I disagree vehemently with that, those connections are conducted in the open for domestic political purposes. But I think they are just as wrong, just as I opposed Joe Lieberman for being the 101st senator from the state of Israel, a role Charles Schumer has assumed. But, to their credit, it’s not done covertly. Your example of “red-baiting” is one huge red herring. If Canada tried to covertly influence our elections, I would be as outraged as I am by Russian meddling. I’m hoping, however, that we agree pedophiles have no business in representative government.
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Here’s an article about the Bernie conspiracy theory https://www.thenation.com/article/bernie-sanders-is-a-russian-agent-and-other-things-i-learned-this-week/ Chris Hedges and Robert Scheer have talked extensively about being accused of Russian collusion. I find the outrage over Russian interference in our election laughable. We’ve been interfering in other countries elections for years in much less benevolent ways than what Russia did. Bill Clinton actively endorsed Yeltsin. Now they’re doing it to us. How dare they! What I find utterly depressing about the focus on a Russian conspiracy is that democrats out of fear and desperation are going to completely ignore the democratic party’s cozy relationship with Wallstreet and as a result give corporate America even more power when Trump is removed from office.
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“I find the outrage over Russian interference in our election laughable.” Sure. Why in hell should we care if the Russians interfered in our election? Why should we expect to have fair elections since we have tried to influence so many others? Is it really necessary that we spend our days flogging ourselves? We should abdicate our right to fair elections because of our own sins? Are you kidding? Forgive me, but I find that argument less than compelling. As to your fear that the Democratic party’s “cosy relationship with Wall Street” will result in even more control by corporate America, what else can be given to them that Trump hasn’t already done or promised? I am not a fan of neoliberalism. I find nothing liberal about the abandonment of the party’s traditional base. John Anderson was my kind of Republican and was a very good representative for a Republican district in Illinois (mine), and yet he would probably find himself left of most of the Democratic party today.
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dianeravitch
It would seem that we almost agree . Both are true . Perhaps the only nuance is I don’t Blame the Russians . I blame Americans who would work with them . The more despicable part is that it was done more out of greed than political ambition . At least if the Rosenberg’s were guilty, it would have been for ideology .
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Arts, have you even read the article you cited? I did. I’m guessing you also believe that Wile E. Coyote buys Acme products?
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Thank you, speduktr, for being more succinct and eloquent than I could have been!
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Thank you, Arts Smart. I’ve been trying to say the same thing, and it’s demoralizing to see the same in-denial responses from the liberal/left that I witness from Trump supporters when they’re confronted with his lies and betrayals.
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Greg B, when you say you know of no other examples of candidates – by the way, Flynn was not representing candidate Trump with the Russian ambassador; he was representing President-elect Trump, an important difference) interacting with foreign governments, you’re leaving out the collusion between the Reagan campaign in 1980 and the Iranian government over the fate of the embassy hostages.
How else could it have come about that the US embassy hostages were released at the exact moment Ronald Reagan was sworn in as President?
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Nixon with Vietnam. Ironically, I believe (I’m fuzzy on this, but I think it’s correct) the peace negotiation that Nixon was trying to sabotage was being pushed by the Soviets in part out of a desire to impact the result of the U.S. presidential election.
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Thank you, Flerp, for some reason I’d forgotten Nixon and Kissinger’s documented interference in the 1968 election, whereby they conspired with the government of South Vietnam to throw a wrench into Johnson’s peace negotiations with the North.
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In Michigan 80,000 people voted but chose NO presidential candidate. Jill Stein did not sway the vote in Michigan. Plus the inner cities did not vote largely at all. Jill is a non-issue.
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Why was she at Putin’s table with Mike Flynn? Just wondering.
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I can see her being there because RT presented a voice for many on the left .A voice that was denied to them by the corporate owned MSM . Who were ejecting even moderate left wing voices like Ed Schultz and Cenk Uygur . Uygur who was the first MSNBC host to beat Fox in a time slot. Wasn’t your conversation with Hedges carried on RT Network.
Stein was a voice on the left, not a serious contender for the office Certainly not at a time that Sanders was in serious contention. The dinner was an RT event. But even not being a serious contender still places her at Putin’s Table. The fact that she participated over the objections of the Russian Greens is a character failure she should be held accountable for.
Now as for Flynn we know why he was there . As does Mueller and I do not mean that he was an agent of Trump at the time. He was a rogue hostile operator. The fact that the plea deal was so sweet should have everyone in Trumps circle extremely concerned.
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Detroiter, Trump beat Hillary in Michigan by 10,704 votes. Jill Stein received 51,403 votes. Why do you say her presence on the ballot didn’t matter?
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/308353-trump-won-by-smaller-margin-than-stein-votes-in-all-three
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Because people who voted for Jill probably would not have voted at all if she had not been on the ballot. The majority of dissenters voted for no one. See above.
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Diane, are you implying that there should be no third parties? If so, just come out and say it. If there were only Trump and Clinton, I for one, would have voted for neither. And many of the Stein voters would have done the same (polls prove it). The Dems don’t own our votes. Never did. I heard all this before with Nader. The vilification of the left seems to be a favorite pastime with the Democratic establishment – “It’s our way or the highway!”
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Peter,
I support third parties. I asked a question. Why was Jill Stein sitting at Putin’s head table at the RT celebration? Why did she want to present her policy ideas to Putin? She says no one listened. Why was she there?
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I wouldn’t go as far as to say no third party, but in our system it can result in the least popular alternative winning an election. If we had a parliamentary system, the number of parties would not matter, but we don’t. We really have to think long and hard about whether we want the good, the bad or the ugly. If we want some good, we may have to vote for the ugly.
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Bernie Sanders 2020
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I don’t know the answers to any of those questions about Stein, but this is sort of interesting.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/12/04/the-french-origins-of-you-will-not-replace-us
It explains some of the origins on what seems to be a Left/Right alliance on “nationalism” in Europe, something I wondered about. I couldn’t figure out why Putin is so opposed to immigration. This article explains some of the origins of that and shows where there is overlap in the views on the far Left and far Right, including in the US.
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I’m reading about the expansion of the US to the west and it’s so funny because it was WILDLY “multi-cultural” – so many of them were immigrants! They were LITERALLY immigrants because of course “the western states” weren’t states yet so they were immigrating into lands owned by other nations- natives americans and Mexicans- but it is amusing given all this “nationalism” now. Political boundaries were considered lines on a map and subject to change and interpretation – convenient, huh? How our “nationalism” is elastic when we need to seize some property 🙂
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Michigan: Libertarian Gary Johnson/Bill Weld 3.6% 172,136
Somebody find me a Libertarian who was ever not a Republican first and foremost.
Why are we talking about Stein as if far more Trump votes were not taken by Johnson. It is laughable .
Johnson 2 term Republican Governor
Weld 2 term Republican Governor
Stein a political activist who was never able to win any office she ran for . 51,000 votes .
I think you are barking up the wrong tree.
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As a Green Party member, I am confused over Stein going to Russia as well. However, in no way was Stein a spoiler who gave Trump the election. If you took all of the Stein votes from every state and added them to Clinton’s total, Clinton still would have lost. I believe that Clinton conducted a terrible campaign (ignoring Wisconsin, for example) plus Republican efforts to suppress voting rights are what put Trump in the White House. Trump gave dozens of reasons why a citizen should NOT vote for him but Clinton give very few reasons for people to vote for her. She assumed that every idiotic statement that came out of Trump would automatically translate into votes for her.
The Democrats are facing the same situation as we approach the 2018 election cycle. In the special election a few months ago in Georgia and in the upcoming Alabama senatorial race, Republicans will win again because the Democratic party and their candidates have forgotten how to convince the voters that Democrats are worth voting for. Maybe if the Democrats started ignoring the wants of their big dollar donors and started paying attention to the real average Americans, they can start winning elections again
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Or perhaps, as you say, if they stopped assuming that people would see the logical fallacies if not the reactionary nature of a lot of the Republican agenda. Rolling your eyes and pursing your lips just doesn’t do it. Tell me why your ideas are better and why theirs aren’t.
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Nearly all of people who ended up voting for Stein knew she wouldn’t win. Many, maybe most of them would probably now admit that they preferred Clinton over Trump, but as they thought Clinton would win easily, they voted for the candidate they liked the best.
I’m guessing that a large number Stein supporters ended up not voting. After all, Stein wasn’t going to win and Clinton was pretty much a sure thing, so why bother?
If they all had voted for Clinton, she maybe wins. But of course, that was never going to happen. There is no way Stein would have dropped out and told all of her supporters that Trump was an existential threat and that Clinton was a far better person than she was made out to be by the general media. (All of that is true.)
I have to admit I’ve been stupid on more than one occasion. For example:
I failed to vote in 1972 presidential. It was a blowout for sure but in part it was a blowout because people like me didn’t vote.
I voted for Anderson even though it was clear that Anderson had almost no chance and that Carter’s flaws were tiny compared to Reagan’s. That race was relatively close and I’ve felt very stupid about that choice ever since I saw the 1980 voting returns come in.
Have I done better since? Well, I’ve tried.
I vote for whoever I want in a primary but in the general, I vote for the most progressive candidate who has a decent chance to win.
FWIW, I think Putin is a murderous thug and that Stein can have had no good reason to meet with him.
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Diane, he’s not “signing in as a NYSUT employee.” He set his WordPress name to link to the archives of Shanker’s writings that are hosted on that web site. If you click on my name, you’ll be taken to a YouTube video of a boxer named Tyson Fury. That doesn’t mean I am signing in as YouTube or Tyson Fury. It means I’m directing you to an external web site, something you do many times each day on this web site. There’s nothing wrong or even strange about it.
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Not sure how this comment got way down here. Simplest explanation is I’m an idiot.
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Welcome to the club
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Really? Stein baiting? And wondering if her million votes was a spoiler? Really? If HRC lost because of 1M votes, that says more about HRC than Stein. I’m tired of voting for the lesser of two evils. I’m tired of pretending the Dems are the “resistance” and have “the people” as their main concern. Tell that to Libya, Yemen, Honduras, Palestine, etc. Oh, I forgot, they don’t count. As long as you continue to accept the POS candidates the DNC throws at you, the more you maintain the system we have. Schumer just criticized Trump’s Jerusalem decision, from the FAR RIGHT. Pelosi wants us to welcome anti-abortion types with open arms. Democrats. phbbbtttt
I have no idea why Stein was there or what she was trying to accomplish. Either way, I’d still vote for her again over the “Kissinger is my mentor” candidate, “Honduras isn’t a coup” (death squads? Not a problem for those stupid brown people) and Libya “we came we saw, he died” (and who cares if slave auctions are now happening). And now they’re shoving Kamala Harris down our throats, who had a nice photo op with Satanyahu. To hell with all of them. I will no longer vote for people who make me want to vomit.
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This is delicate, but I’ll say it anyway:
I have a problem with politicians who agree totally with my ideas and ideals. I don’t think they can win. I think they’re either somewhat naive or lying.
I know it’s cynical, but it’s just that I think it’s unrealistic to think that, with a country as large and diverse as ours, we’re going to be able to attract enough support to win an election with a candidate that completely fills our own personal wants and needs.
We have to be able to make compromises in order to satisfy the ideas and ideals of others who are somewhat in our camp. We need allies in order to even have a chance of furthering our agenda.
I know Hillary isn’t perfect, but the world stage can be and is a dirty business. And she’s a hell of a lot better than Trump. And guess who’s sitting in the Oval Office, now.
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The issue now isn’t whether Hillary is superior to Trump; of course she is (though she’s still awful).
The issue is whether the Clinton/Obama/Neo-liberal/Third Way wing of the Democratic Party can have its Loser/death grip on the Party machinery relaxed, because it has demonstrated over the years that it is far more comfortable with Republican victories in general elections than Left victories in Democratic primaries.
In that sense, the 2016 election is still very relevant.
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I have met Hillary on several occasions, going back to 1984. I heard her speak two nights ago at a gay synagogue. She was warm, compassionate, thoughtful, intelligent, wise. She was everything that Trump will never be. Elections are choices. We had a choice between a less than perfect Democrat and a would be fascist extremist billionaire. No point reopening this debate. If you want Trump in 2020, then eight years of President Pence, keep holding out for the perfect candidate.
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Green party voter here again, and yes, Jill Stein supporter 2024.
It’s been a few years, and we did not have a president pence. But what we did have was four more years of the Dems again still cozy with corporate America and Wall Street.
And Incremental climate change action and no universal healthcare
So what are we thinking about this quote from somebody up above here?
“What I find utterly depressing about the focus on a Russian conspiracy is that democrats out of fear and desperation are going to completely ignore the democratic party’s cozy relationship with Wallstreet and as a result give corporate America even more power when Trump is removed from office.”
Did anything actually change? At least Jill Stein is giving you something to gripe about again.
And SEVERAL years to read her article about why she went to Russia!
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