David Leonhardt of the New York Times has written favorably about charter schools, without paying much attention to issues such as attrition and selective admissions. Nor has he explored the impact of charter schools on the public schools that enroll the majority of students or considered the value of public funding of two school systems, one free to choose its students, the other required to accept all. He recently invited charter skeptics to contact him. John Thompson, teacher and historian in Oklahoma, has a message for him.
Feel free to suggest other studies that Leonhardt should read.
Thompson writes:
“In “A Summer Project to Nourish Your Political Soul,” the New York Times commentator David Leonhardt pledges to wrestle with the complexities of immigration and abortion, as well as the issue which he debates most with his readers – charter schools. He’s devoting part of the summer to learning about “vexing issues.” Leonhardt asks “reform skeptics” to “dig into a few of the studies, essays and evidence that have persuaded me.” In return, he promises to keep an open mind when considering our responses.
“The first study that impressed Leonhardt was the Education Research Alliance’s “What Effect Did the Post-Katrina School Reforms Have on Student Outcomes?” by Douglas Harris and Matthew Larsen. It showed that New Orleans test score growth increased up by more than .2 standard deviations between 2007 and 2010. This was the time, however, when its reformers had even greater freedom in terms of suspending and pushing out students who interfered with their mission to dramatically raise test scores. They also had thousands of additional dollars, per student. Growth then slowed and the next two years’ test gains were almost the same as the two years preceding the hurricane, about .1 standard deviation.
“In other words, nearly a decade of expensive, brass-knuckled reward and punishment produced three years where test score growth was higher than the time when New Orleans was dismissed as a failed school system. NOLA focused completely on raising bubble-in scores, which may or may not indicate that learning increased during that brief window. Harris hopes that better accountability will permanently stop the abuses that proliferated during the time when test score growth increased, but he repeatedly acknowledges doubts that what he sees as effective in New Orleans can be scaled up.
“I hope that Leonhardt will also consider NOLA’s continuing abuses, such as those recently documented by Martha Jewson, and ask whether it will meet the December 2017 deadline for obeying the law.
How ReNEW has tried to make up teaching for special-ed students shorted two years ago
“The second study cited by Leonhardt claims that charter students in Florida and Chicago did not perform higher in school but had better longterm, out-of-school outcomes. Of course, scholars would have to study hundreds of thousands of students, controlled as best as possible for demographic differences, in order to show that the subsequent increased earnings were a result of charters’ inputs …
Charter High Schools’ Effects on Long-Term Attainment and Earnings (Journal Article)
“Actually, Leonhardt links to study with a sample which includes only 262 low-income students, as well as about 111 special education and about 11 English Language Learners!
“Seriously, this study merely compared students in Florida and Chicago who attended both 8th grade and high school charters in the late 1990s with students who attended 8th grade charters but traditional high schools! The published paper recognized that the small treatment group of 1141 students could be skewed by students not continuing in charters due to discipline problems or family crises. The non-educators who conducted the study ran a series of complex controls that would have been fascinating in a paper on economic theory but that are useless in terms of answering the real world question of whether charters can be more effective in increasing lifetime earnings than traditional neighborhood schools.
“And that leads to the third source which impresses Leonhardt. He cites research by CREDO, but he doesn’t refer to Learning from the Federal Market-based Reforms: Lessons for the Every Student Succeeds Act (ESSA), edited by William Mathis and Tina Trujillo. This anthology acknowledges that CREDO is more professional than “piles of these pseudo-studies/evaluations” by charter advocates, but it still has flaws. Mathis’ and Trujillo’s collection, which Leonhardt doesn’t cite, makes an impressive case that, despite CREDO’s spin, those who hope that charters will close the achievement gap will be disappointed.
Click to access CMO%20FINAL.pdf
http://www.infoagepub.com/products/Learning-from-the-Federal-Market‐Based-Reforms
“Fourth, Leonhardt links to his editorial in support of Boston’s Match charter schools. His faith in such charters seems to ignore a crucial distinction. Charters may have an “attrition rate” that is no worse than neighborhood schools, but that ignores the “backfill” rate. Charters that don’t fill seats that are emptied are very different than schools that serve everyone who walks through the door, regardless of the time of year.
http://jerseyjazzman.blogspot.com/2016/09/massachusetts-charter-schools-and-their.html
“More importantly, Leonhardt links to a study which supposedly supports the claim that charters don’t damage neighborhood schools by draining resources and leaving behind greater concentrations of children from generational poverty who have endured multiple traumas. A huge body of journalism and qualitative research, as well as the professional judgments of virtually every teacher who I have ever met, argues for the common sense conclusion that charters have hurt traditional public schools. It would be wrong for anti-charter advocates to ignore the data-driven studies that challenge our conventional wisdom. But isn’t it just as wrong for Big Data researchers to ignore the real world evidence that contradicts their few findings?
The Effect of Charter Schools on Students in Traditional Public Schools: A Review of the Evidence
“Leonhardt trusts a meta-analysis which concluded that 6 studies showed positive or mixed positive results, with 9 showing neutral results, but with only 1 showing mixed negative and neutral effects. But he doesn’t mention “The Impacts of School Choice Reforms on Student Achievement,” by Gary Miron and Jessica Urschel, which is included in Learning from the Federal Market-based Reforms. In contrast to the studies read by Leonhardt, Miron and Urschel show that 30 charter studies found positive results, with 30 showing comparable negative results, and with 23 showing mixed results.
“I frequently reach out to charter supporters. My friends who say I’m naive for continuing to communicate with the true believers may be right. But, rarely do I find a charter supporter who isn’t disappointed in their outcomes. I doubt that a close reading of the research cited by Leonhardt will find evidence that the flaws in the charter model can be patched up so that they can be scaled up. That is not my big concern, however.
“I hope that Leonhardt and other choice supporters will look anew at the damage done by charters to traditional public schools. Unless they believe that we teachers and our students are suffering from a mass hallucination, its hard to understand how they could use such thin evidence to deny that the additional stress of high stakes testing and increased segregation, both worsened by charters, hasn’t damaged kids, especially hurting our most vulnerable kids.”

First, Leonhardt really needs to understand that KIPP = Kids In Prison Programs and all the other Charters use the same tactics. Cruelty and manipulation of children and their families.
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It should also be noted that New Orleans is not the same city it was prior to Katrina. The city lost about 15 to 20% of its poorest residents that never returned. Perhaps this is the main source of the “miracle.” Since Katrina New Orleans has intentionally made strides to gentrify the city. At the same time the city deliberately has refused to rebuild public housing and has closed Charity Hospital; thus, making the city an unattractive place for the poor.
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One thing that the pro-reformers (intentionally?) ignore is that any study that compares private charters with neighborhood public schools can also be repeated with similar results by replacing “privately run charters with no oversight except for people who believe in having more privately run charters” with “lottery public schools with the same oversight as public schools that accept students via lottery and only take the children whose parents are most motivated to seek out their school.”
Why isn’t Leonhardt promoting more Central Park Easts that are part of the NYC public school system? Oh yes, that’s right, there already are a myriad of “choice” in the public school system in which none of the choices can get away with “got to go lists” and claims that 20% of the African-American 5 year old children whose parents sought out a good school were violent.
None of them can hide attrition rates or pre-test an incoming first grader in the summer and tell her parents she has to repeat Kindergarten or is not allowed to attend the charter.
What Leonhardt wants is PRIVATE schools that are publicly funded out of the public school budget and call themselves “charters”. That is a voucher. And it explains why one of the fastest growing charter chain that is rewarded by billionaires with lavish amounts of donations – Success Academy – worked so very hard to convince politicians to approve Betsy DeVos’ view of education.
Leonhardt and his like want private schools operated with public money. Just like Betsy DeVos. He goes to great lengths to prove how we should all just embrace it based on nonsensical studies that refuse to examine the real attrition rates.
Page 9 on this report is the ONLY study that I have found ever to look at longitudinal attrition rates of children who enroll in charters and it turns out that HALF the children who enroll join Kindergarten are MIA by 5h grade.
It’s not a coincidence that this study has not been done for every charter school that claims outsize results with every child who walks in the door. The desire of the charters to see no evil — even if many children suffer — is the hallmark of charter operators. Their own careers and pocketbooks are far more important to them than learning the truth. And they lie to themselves and say “they do it for this poor child who they are helping” while being delighted to cheer on the white people who tell them how violent many 5 year old
African-American children are because she is white and must be telling the truth about how violent they are. They are ugly, greedy people who have convinced themselves they are doing something good. I’m sure Ivanka Trump is no different.
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^^^Apologies for leaving out the link to the report:
Click to access school-indicators-for-new-york-city-charter-schools-2013-2014-school-year-july-2015.pdf
Page 9 shows that 49.5% attrition rate for the “average” charter.
One wonders if the top performing ones lose even more and the ones that keep children instead of putting them on got to go lists have lower attrition that covers up the attrition at high-performing charters.
This is the only study I have seen that actually tracks the STUDENTS and doesn’t simply compare numbers. Charters do backfill in early years but they are allowed to give students a pre-enrollment test and tell them they must enter a lower grade than they should if they want to come to their school. That means every single attrition seat is filled with a student who comes in working at or above grade level. And no one has ever questioned the practice that guarantees that a charter school’s test scores will be unusually high, certainly not
“the charters that powerful billionaires fund never do anything bad” cheerleaders like Leonhardt.
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Charters are agents of gentrification in many cities. Several cities like Chicago are closing public schools, sending poor students to cheap charters further from the CBD, and creating selective mostly white charters in redeveloped neighborhoods. Developers profit; charters profit, and cities get higher tax ratables. They are resegregating America for profit.
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It’s more than gentrification.
There is a reason why the ONLY place where charters do better than public schools is in large urban centers.
Charters need a base of thousands of students in each grade in order to identify the worthy from the unworthy ones and have others to replace them.
High performing charters who claim a desire to expand mysteriously refuse to expand in places where their wait lists are longest. What seems clear is that they are certain they have exhausted the worthy kids and if they keep expanding they will not be able to keep losing and replacing kids without people asking questions.
Why would a high performing charter chain that is supposed to be the miracle school for at-risk kids demand a third school in a district where they already have 2 schools that serve mostly middle class kids and relatively few at-risk kids? Especially when their wait list for those two schools is tiny compared to the huge wait list in their one school elsewhere that serves mostly at-risk kids?
It’s clear they don’t want to expand where they may have to educate too many at-risk kids, despite the demand being multiple times higher in those places.
Those results of every charter that is the default of students in other cities and doesn’t weed out the lowest performers are ignored because they don’t add to the pro-charter’s lie that charters are working miracles.
Some charters are good just like some public schools are good. The problem with the people like David Leonhardt is they are so gullible and racist to believe that the “good” charters get there by teaching every kid and not because so many kids leave. Leonhardt prefers to insist that lots of 5 year old non-white children are violent and that non-white parents with no better option frequently hate high performing charters AFTER they experience them so why would he question why they pull them out?
I have no doubt that if Leonhardt heard that tons of educated affluent white parents in his suburb were pulling their kids from a public school that had a good reputation and putting them into a public school with terrible results, Leonhardt would not just say “I’m sure those white middle class parents prefer poorly funded public schools that have low test scores”. He’d ask questions and wonder what was going on. I doubt he’d simply say “the school administrator told me those white affluent students were either violent or their educated white parents hate good schools so I will accept that as the gospel truth.”
There is a lot of racism in how white reporters like Leonhardt cover charter schools and their willingness to trust word of a white woman who explains how violent lots of 5 year old African-American children while questioning the NAACP’s desire for oversight. And there is something racist about them saying “but African-American families send their kids so I am certain that they agree that there should be no oversight or accountability for charters”.
Lots of white parents send their kids to Horace Mann — a fancy private school. The school reformers would say that means that all white parents want to make sure the sexual abuse by teachers there is allowed to be covered up. Or they wouldn’t because people would recognize how absurd such a claim is.
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That is a big problem with tossing education into the market. Rather than serving students in areas with the greatest need, they will often go to greener pastures, or perhaps whiter pastures, where there is a greater certitude of “success.” They have to ensure that they emerge a “winner.” They have to protect the brand.
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Exactly. Protecting the brand is far more important than any child.
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Diane Snip from your note: “Charters that don’t fill seats that are emptied are very different than schools that serve everyone who walks through the door, regardless of the time of year.”
I’m glad to see someone take a hard look at all the studies. I want to say to them: “Read my lips: ALL means ALL” and cannot mean “some.”
Without taking away from the quality of the article or the importance of perusing different KINDS of schools, none of it speaks to the more comprehensive issues that, in the long run, are slated to change the very structure of a secular democracy. Those issues are powerful and are at work, either by design (as the recent notes about racism testify to) OR **by an absence of thought (aka ignorance) about either the importance of maintaining a secular/constitutional democracy, its intimate relationship to providing a public education for ALL, or the destructive connection between that and their own desires, omissions, and actions.
Both the former (by design) and the later (by ignorance) are self-destructive in the long run. Forgive me for beating that drum again but, in that light, comparing schools is important (and the charters are apparently already self-destructing); but that won’t matter at all if those two forces get their way–by maintaining and consolidating their power and, from there, by just ignoring the evidence.
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Also There’s the hard to measure impact on neighborhood life and mixing with “others”. Both still happen even if it rnough
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“Also There’s the hard to measure impact on neighborhood life and mixing with “others”. Both still happen even if it rnough”
Could you clarify further what you mean? I’m guessing that you’re alluding to the fact that parents are often willing to send their kids to a school farther from home if they believe it is better school for their children than what is available close by. And that has the disadvantage of the children having fewer friends who are both at their school and also live close by.
I have certainly regretted that aspect when advising kids to apply to New Mission High School here in Boston while knowing that it would be a long, multi bus/train trip to school, if they won the heavily oversubscribed lottery.
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Diane: “Feel free to suggest other studies that Leonhardt should read.”
“Collective Bargaining in Education: Negotiating Change in Today’s Schools” edited by Jane Hannaway, director of the Education Policy Center at the Urban Institute and Andrew Rotherham, co-founder of Education Sector and Senior Fellow at the Progressive Policy Institute (as per the 2010 book jacket).
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SAVE this country from Charters and Vouchers. They are AWFUL.
When I first saw on TV “Lotteries” for getting into a charter school, I wanted to VOMIT and thought, “Egads, you parents are being HAD, big time.”
It all so SICK.
Oh, I keep getting surveys from the DNC and other DEMs. NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING is there are SUPPORTING PUBLIC EDUCATION. I keep writing to those airheads.
But, good news is that 3 GOP senators voted NO to TrumpUNCARE. Glad Drumph is “POed” at McCain. I thoroughly enjoyed McCain’s speech in the Senate.
Says a lot that despicable Dump didn’t consider McCain to be a hero, because he was a POW. That Dump is despicable.
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The comments on this post so far delve well into the facts that refute the New Orleans “miracle” as mere gentrification, and other minute test score gains in cities like Chicago as merely the effect of weeding out students by charters, as well as the common sense notion that charters drain funding from public schools. I would like to additionally address the negative effects competition for students has on public schools beyond the funding drain.
Public schools have been forced to focus on marketing instead of quality.
First, public schools have been forced to focus heavily on annual test scores for Zillow-induced score publishing websites, narrowing the curriculum and intensifying the wrongheaded practice of tracking to expand unchecked. Second, public schools have been coerced into spending money and employee time on advertising instead of pedagogical development. I’m supposed to be a teacher, not a salesperson. It is a loss for my students when I have to spend my time developing websites and videos to advertise my school instead of investing every moment of my workday (which includes nights and weekends) helping students learn. Third, public schools, all schools do better the more diverse the student population. Not just charters are more racially and economically segregated, but public schools are too, as a result of the draining of one or another racial and/or economic demographic by charters.
Competition has a negative impact on public schools.
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Let us grant, for the sake of argument, that KIPP/Success/Match’s superior scores are not the result of skimming and refusing to backfill. What, then, is the secret sauce? If it’s tough discipline, can that be spread to public schools? I doubt it. The lynchpin of any thought discipline system is a credible threat of expulsion, which is inordinately hard to do in the public system. If it’s curriculum, then, yes, that probably could be spread to public schools. If it’s ability to fire teachers at will, then why don’t Southern, non-union schools do a better job? If it’s pedagogy (apart from discipline), specify the techniques. No good citing Doug Lemov’s book “Teach Like a Champion” –those techniques presume a culture of tight discipline in school. There should be a disclaimer on the cover that says “Warning: all the model teachers in this book teach at no-excuses charters”. The non-nonsense techniques don’t fly in a loosey-goosey public school culture –I know because I tried them one year. I wish Dynarski and Leonhardt could be more specific about what the secret sauce is, and what, if any, part of it can realistically be imported into public schools. If none of it can be, then they need to stop bashing public schools and acknowledge that KIPP etc. can only succeed under special, narrow circumstances.
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Ponderosa, in respect to understanding MATCH in particular, I’d suggest this article:
http://educationnext.org/match-corps-goes-national/
Here’s a brief extract:
“While there is no “magic bullet” that can explain Match’s success, many point to a unique feature of the school: a built-in corps of highly educated tutors who live on the school premises and provide students with intense academic support throughout the school day. The Match Corps is not an “add-on” service, nor are tutors mere “teacher helpers.” Tutors are integral to the school day and to students’ academic experience. They are accountable for student learning; they form strong and lasting relationships with students and families; and they are known to all members of the Match community, from full-time teachers to administrators.
“Results from the Match Corps model are perceived to be so powerful that many other schools and districts are adopting it. In addition to installing tutor corps in Match Middle School and Match Community Day in Boston, Match has helped charter and traditional district schools in such places as Chicago, Newark, Houston, and Lawrence, Massachusetts, adapt its model to their needs.”
And this book:
“Inside Urban Charter Schools: Promising Practices and Strategies in Five High-Performing Schools” which includes a helpfully informative chapter on MATCH.
It includes a chapter on Academy of the Pacific Rim, which was recently discussed in the comments here:
In respect to the Brooke charter schools, also in Boston, there’s this article that I recommended in another thread recently:
https://www.the74million.org/article/whitmire-americas-best-charter-school-doesnt-look-anything-like-top-charters-is-that-bad
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Stephen,
Please stop citing rightwing, pro-charter sources. I was on the board of EdNext. It is funded by the very conservative Hoover Institution.
No more.
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I have no doubt that 1:1 tutoring helps kids. I remember reading about a study that showed this was the best kind of learning situation, and my experience learning Spanish in a 1:1 situation in Guatemala supports this. We did not need the vast charter school experiment to tell us this. Will you join me in advocating for a massive tutor corps to enter America’s public schools? If my school of 600 hires 60, our kids can get 1:1 tutoring for 10% of their time in school (though not being in college-rich Boston, it might be hard to find such a large stable of bright educated young folks willing to work for $15/hour). We’ll have to raise taxes, of course –either that or slash regular teachers’ pay.
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You’ll find futher down in that article that it’s actually 1:2. They tried variations and found that to be best… one tutor for a pair of students. I’d quote from the article, it provides quite a bit of interesting detail, but I guess I’ll need to substitute this… perhaps slightly less immediately relevant to your question:
“All fixed, fast-frozen relations, with their train of ancient and venerable prejudices and opinions, are swept away; all new-formed ones become antiquated before they can ossify. All that is solid melts into air, all that is holy is profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses his real conditions of life and his relations with his kind.”
― Karl Marx, The Communist Manifesto
Diane, could you perhaps recommend a left-wing publication that adequately answers Ponderosa’s question about MATCH’s methods?
“Society as a whole is more and more splitting up into two great hostile camps”
― Karl Marx, The Communist Manifesto
Ponderosa: “Will you join me in advocating for a massive tutor corps to enter America’s public schools?”
Absolutely!!
But keep in mind that the unions have been highly skeptical of many tutoring programs… perhaps believing:
“In proportion therefore, as the repulsiveness of the work increases, the wage decreases.”
― Karl Marx, The Communist Manifesto
But I don’t know about that… those ill-paid AmeriCorps tutors seemed to find the work attractive…
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It’s only right to pay people a decent wage. And it’s only right to spread resources, including tutors, in a way that is equitable instead of marketable. Someone better burn this Match ’cause it stinks. We’re not looking for left wing publications or right wing publications. We’re looking for honesty and truthfulness. Quoting Marx as if in support of free market privatization?! How insulting to all.
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LeftCoastTeacher: “We’re not looking for left wing publications or right wing publications. We’re looking for honesty and truthfulness.”
Ah, thanks, that’s very reassuring.
If anyone here has any reason to believe the EdNext article about MATCH is not honest and truthful, kindly elucidate the details.
Meanwhile, I’ll step cautiously slightly rightward from Comrade Marx, and cite the Boston Globe: “Union resistance to outside tutors is bad form.”
https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/editorials/2013/09/10/union-resistance-outside-tutors-bad-form/w3CjS4REyC4Ea5zmgzV20J/story.html
Check out the second sentence of that last paragraph, if you please, NYC Public School Parent. And kindly remember it for future reference.
And there’s this:
“Who is against library volunteers?
Teachers unions in Raynham and Bridgewater.”
http://archive.boston.com/yourtown/budgetblues/2010/10/who_is_against_library_volunte.html
LeftCoastTeacher: “And it’s only right to spread resources, including tutors, in a way that is equitable instead of marketable”
How would you apply that theory in practice given circumstances like those I’ve cited above? What do you consider equitable?
LeftCoastTeacher: “It’s only right to pay people a decent wage. ”
To offer you some context, see this article on Boston teachers’ salaries:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/editorials/2016/02/25/boston-school-budget-this-what-means-starve-then-where-sign/z0eWXsn4aQMmt80KVRUpeJ/story.html
And, today, the Globe published this analysis:
“Some charter school leaders’ pay far outpaces their public rivals”
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/08/01/some-boston-charter-school-leaders-paid-hefty-salaries/fbHDOC33WKmzcvvZaNNkLN/story.html
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I’m a School Librarian and not only do I have a BS in Elentary Education and a BA in English, but I also have a Master’s Degree in Library Science.
I have special skills and an education to match plus hours and hours of continuing education.
All too often “lay people” think that library volunteers can take the place of a librarian – they can’t.
Over the years I have had various individuals volunteer in my libraries, and while I appreciated the help, all too often they couldn’t even shelve the books correctly in alphabetical order, let alone the Dewey Decimal System. Forget cataloguing and while they might be able to process a book with assistance, it was usually by rote because they didn’t understand what they were doing. Of course there’s ordering materials, creating lesson plans, and actually teaching the kids, plus overseeing the technology, fixing computers, unclogging the copy machine, assisting student and teacher patrons, and checking out books.
Assistance is always appreciated, but more often than not it’s mostly extra work unless the volunteer is well trained.
My pet peeve was when the principal had a substitute who wasn’t functioning in the classroom assigned to help in the library for the rest of the day. Once I had the assistance for six months of an elderly teacher’s aide with dementia issues. She was a sweetheart, but had no idea what to do. She did enjoy putting the Mylar covers in the book jackets – a time consuming project, so I assigned her that task.
So what exactly did you expect these volunteers to do?
And what about the librarian?
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I can’t off-hand think of a more important academic goal of an elementary school than facilitating a love of reading. And, with a sister a long-time public librarian, I am closely familiar with the important work a librarian can do with youth beyond keeping the stacks open and accessible. But the latter alone can be a whole heck of a lot better than a closed door. Diane once asked me why my sister (who is sympathetic to Diane’s views here) is so much smarter than I am. My response: “Librarians have better circulation?”. I imagine you’ve heard that before, hope you’d agree that keeping books circulating has great value in itself, a significant fraction of what a skilled librarian can accomplish.
“So what exactly did you expect these volunteers to do?”
I have lots of experience with volunteers and with work/study students (where we pay only about 1/4th of the students wage) who make variable, but often vast, contributions to the work of nonprofits. So I wouldn’t underestimate the capacities of well-recruited and managed teams of volunteers. I have no doubt that they could make a great improvement over a closed library.
My sense from that article is that the school system has needed to make difficult choices. Checking quickly, it looks like on the most recent occasion that Bridgewater residents were asked to raise their tax rate, they declined.
Is the union cleverly working to make it more likely that that won’t happen again, to persuade the residents of the need for more tax revenues, or are they clumsily creating hostility while harming kids? Hard to tell at this distance. I suspect the latter. Our AFT-affiliated Boston union is rather better than average in respect to keeping the needs of kids in mind. Our NEA-affiliated state association is rather less impressive, and the union in this circumstance is affiliated with the latter.
“And what about the librarian?”
My impression from the article is that the choice was between classroom teacher or librarian. I’m not sufficiently familiar with the details to argue the merits of the decision. But from a taxpayer/parents/kids point of view I would think that the capacity to make liberal use of volunteers/work-study students/AmeriCorps Vista tutors and the like would positively enhance the range of possibilities that administrators confront.
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Stephen B Ronan A minute of your time? . . . Way back circa 1835, Tocqueville warned in his Democracy in America that the demise of a democracy (and a civil culture) won’t likely occur quickly, but rather slowly, crumbling from within.
An example of a quicker version occurred, for instance, as Hitler’s thugs burned piles of books in the town square, and another, a little less so, where in some places they jail or kill members of the press.
One example of slow internal crumbling is having to make choices, none of which are acceptable, and where both or all, from a larger view, are just different ways to dissemble the vibrancy of a culture. Having to choose between teachers and librarians is just such as choice, as is choosing between keeping the doors of a library open by teams of trained volunteers, and just closing down the library.
It’s rather telling, don’t you think? . . . how wonderful volunteers are–to those whose main line of thought is about saving money, or that some just don’t have a clue about what’s important, for instance, about the professional qualities of a librarian that they bring to the library and to the people (in this case, children) who attend it, and so define everything in terms of their own ignorance and its low horizons.
It’s not burning books, by any means; but I think it does qualify for that slow crumbling from within that we were talking about above.
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Catherine: “Having to choose between teachers and librarians is just such as choice, as is choosing between keeping the doors of a library open by teams of trained volunteers, and just closing down the library.”
And your choice as a school administrator would be what? What would you do in the described circumstances? Or how would you reconstruct the set of available options?
There are a number of actors in that Bridgewater/Raynham drama concerned about where money is allocated. The volunteers not so much. Their focus is on what benefits the kids. And let’s defer to their judgement, yes?
I had to quickly refresh my recollection of Alexis de Tocqueville by reverting to Wikipedia (am only mildly busy at the moment volunteering as an amateur substitute for a pro). I’m not sure that de T would be the arbitrator you’d really wish to choose in this instance…
I see we can give him credit for, by 1855, decrying slavery in the US. But also find stuff like:
“Tocqueville’s political position became untenable during this time in the sense that he was mistrusted by both the left and right, and was looking for an excuse to leave France.”
“During the Second Republic, Tocqueville sided with the parti de l’Ordre against the socialists.”
“Tocqueville, who since February 1848 had supported laws restricting political freedoms, approved the two laws voted immediately after the June 1849 days, which restricted the liberty of clubs and freedom of the press.
“This active support in favor of laws restricting political freedoms stands in contrast of his defense of freedoms in Democracy in America. According to Tocqueville, he favored order as ‘the sine qua non for the conduct of serious politics.’
Easy to imagine him as a hedge fund manager doing fundraisers for no-excuses charter schools…
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Stephen Ronan writes: “And your choice as a school administrator would be what? What would you do in the described circumstances? Or how would you reconstruct the set of available options?”
I certainly don’t envy them or disregard the importance of what they are doing. Unfortunately, the real-deal thinking with its distortions is already done by the time you get to such either/or questions.
But I’m suggesting that you at least try to think at a different level, that is, where we ask questions like: How did we get to having to make these untenable choices? If you can only think about “which choice would you make,” you are already out of the ballpark, so to speak. And before you say it, such thinking is not an “abstraction.” Accepting such either/ors situations without further thought about how we got there in the first place makes lemmings out of us all.
And if you think you know about Tocqueville’s thought by reading a a few interpretive paragraphs from Wikipedia, . . . well . . . What can I say . . . except maybe this: You don’t.
It’s sort of like Trump saying the White House is a dump–the more he says, the more he exposes the range of his ignorance.
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Catherine: “I certainly don’t envy them or disregard the importance of what they are doing. Unfortunately, the real-deal thinking with its distortions is already done by the time you get to such either/or questions.”
I’d nevertheless still be interested in how you’d think through the problem and, as best you could, address it, if you were in their position in that circumstance.
I’m optimistic that you could deal with it relatively well, even if you were sorely tempted to turn and flee to an ivory tower.
“And if you think you know about Tocqueville’s thought ”
I don’t claim expertise in Tocqueville’s thought. And reading stuff like this:
“The Indian knew how to live without wants, to suffer without complaint, and to die singing.”
and this:
“I know of no country in which there is so little independence of mind and real freedom of discussion as in America. ”
And the first section of Chapter XVIII of “Democracy in America,” doesn’t inspire me to develop much further expertise.
I apologize for any offence I may have unduly given to any hedge fund managers in making that comparison earlier.
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Stephen B Ronan (1) I was wondering when the “ivory tower” thing would come out. That comment commonly runs interference for the speaker’s ignorance.
(2) Cherry picking Tocqueville still doesn’t work. Sheesh.
(3) to comment on the details of such situations as you suggest requires just that: details, which I have no access to and certainly no intention of pursuing. I’ll trust those involved to do the best they can with what they have, which (from a general point of view, and not from an ivory tower by your definition of it) I would also try to do. BTW, I’m not real fond of the lemming point of view. Why are you?
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Catherine: “(1) I was wondering when the “ivory tower” thing would come out. That comment commonly runs interference for the speaker’s ignorance.”
That’s a fair response.
Catherine: “(2) Cherry picking Tocqueville still doesn’t work. Sheesh.”
At a certain point an accumulation of tasted cherries can give a pretty good sense of the overall quality of the tree. The first section of Chapter XVIII spoils my appetite. Seems like sloppy and ignorant analysis. And you? What do you think of that? An aberration? If so, what about his work do you find particularly delectable? The praise for the power of the press in the US as he strove to restrict it in France? I have no doubt that as he slung darts at the dartboard some may have hit their mark, but I’d be wary of citing him as if he were a respectable authority, though some of his observations may be accurate and well-stated.
Catherine: “(3) to comment on the details of such situations as you suggest requires just that: details, which I have no access to and certainly no intention of pursuing. ”
I see. I’d think that to arrive at a conclusive opinion would indeed require lots of details; but I’m highly skeptical that you are consistently unable and unwilling to comment on situations where you have an equivalent amount of detail.
Catherine: “BTW, I’m not real fond of the lemming point of view. Why are you?”
I don’t even begin to understand your meaning, so don’t know what that comment may or may not run interference for. Would be curious for an explanation.
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Stephen B Ronan This is a waste, for both of us and takes away from Diane’s intention. I wish you well. CBK
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Thank you, CBK. As you see, emailing with Stephen is like playing ball with a puppy. It doesn’t stop until you stop.
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Diane: It’s like playing whack-a-mole. Been there. Done that. A waste of time.
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Yes, thanks, Catherine.
I was afraid you were about to offer me a couple hits of purple blotter and urge me to step back and back and back and back to see the reaalllllly big picture (cliff behind me be damned.)
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Stephen,
You have convinced me again. Your sister is way smarter than you.
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Once in a great while, Diane, you make a point that I find difficult or impossible to counter with logic and/or evidence… ;-).
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Hah! At last!
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Stephen,
Sorry, but the most rewarded and revered charter CEOs in the country have told us that all you need is more technology and that class size doesn’t matter — especially for the poorest at-risk kids whose parents can’t afford to pay the $40,000/year tuition that rich and highly educated people pay so their children can have small class sizes! Because we all know it’s a waste of money so we don’t want poor kids to have small classes. It might reward more of those nasty union teachers we hate who should be able to get our results WITH THE SAME EXACT CHILDREN in our fabulous and very rich charters.
As charter leaders most rewarded and revered keep telling us, fighting for small class sizes is just something greedy teachers to do have more jobs for their friends.
You people have lost your way. What happened to make you sell out children and the truth? For what? An overly generous salary? Donations from Trump-supporting billionaires? Was it worth it?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-cost-of-small-class-size/2011/03/03/AFPGSkkB_story.html?utm_term=.741689d4c154
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Stephen,
I’m sure you are right that your sister’s librarian job can be done by any quickly trained volunteer. Frankly, we should simply close down the library schools and replace them with 30 hours of training for recent college grads. In fact, do they even need to have attended college?
I’m sure your sister would tell you that there is nothing she does as a public librarian that can’t be done by a high school kid with 30 hours training. Or a self-service machine that checks out books.
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Thompson: “Leonhardt trusts a meta-analysis which concluded that 6 studies showed positive or mixed positive results, with 9 showing neutral results, but with only 1 showing mixed negative and neutral effects. But he doesn’t mention ‘The Impacts of School Choice Reforms on Student Achievement,’ by Gary Miron and Jessica Urschel, which is included in Learning from the Federal Market-based Reforms. In contrast to the studies read by Leonhardt, Miron and Urschel show that 30 charter studies found positive results, with 30 showing comparable negative results, and with 23 showing mixed results.”
Wasn’t clear to me on a first reading, but apparently Thompson is not alluding to Miron/Urschel research that in any way at all counters the meta-analyis Leonhardt had cited that indicated that charter schools most likely exert a beneficial impact on local traditional district schools.
Instead, I belatedly realized, in respect to the Miron/Urschel research, Thompson is referring to positive/negative results on students within charter schools rather than referring to impacts on district schools.
Presumably, he is referring to this or perhaps an updated version of this: “The Impact of School Choice Reforms on Student Achievement” by Gary Miron, Stephanie Evergreen, and Jessica Urschel, The Evaluation Center, Western Michigan University, March 2008
Click to access EPSL-0803-262-EPRU.pdf
Perhaps they greatly updated their research for the NEA-supported NEPC’s publication that Thompson alluded to. Anyone know?
Thompson: “But, rarely do I find a charter supporter who isn’t disappointed in their outcomes.”
I think most charter school supporters are focused on their local schools’ success or lack of it. And therefore their enthusiasm or disappointment would likely vary tremendously from one locale to another. Certainly he’d find plenty of enthusiastic charter school supporters among those with a close relative in charter schools in this part of the country. A bunch of ’em are within a paperback book toss of where I’m lounging. Would be interested to chat with him if he’s ever up this way.
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Parents in charters that serve primarily at-risk kids are far more honest than the charter operators themselves. Almost all of the parents will acknowledge that a big appeal of the charter is getting away from the “bad” kids at public schools. They almost never promote the lie that their charter educates the same students as public schools. They will say “I’m glad the charter doesn’t have to teach those kids.”
Very few will say “my charter teaches the exact same students that would be in my child’s class if he went to that public school.” That lie is reserved for charter operators and the people paid to promote charters with no oversight or accountability.
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To me that seems like reasonable speculation… but it’s in fact it is not what, in my limited experience, I have tended to hear thus far. Instead I’ve heard parents talking about the culture of community, and mutual respect among students, and consistent coherent discipline practices, and respect for strong, caring, decent authority figures that some schools are able to create more effectively than others.
But I accept your point that here in Boston, for example, there are some district schools with a higher percentage of kids whose parents are less motivated to encourage academic success and whose students are correspondingly less motivated, than is typically the case at the many of our selective public district schools and the charter schools that require entry into a lottery. That’s one reason I support the simplified unified enrollment system for charter and non-selective district schools.
That said I know some truly vibrant, energetic kids at charter schools with massive capacity for creative disruption… who may not fit your stereotype…
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“I know some truly vibrant, energetic kids at charter schools with massive capacity for creative disruption… who may not fit your stereotype…”
Are they performing at or above grade level or have parents able to pay for tutors to address learning issues that mystify inexperienced charter teachers who don’t understand why a kid isn’t learning when they have repeated the same rote technique 30 times and punished and humiliated them for not getting it? Then they are “energetic and vibrant”.
Are they struggling students whose parents don’t have enough money to pay for the expensive tutors to make up for the “model” charter teachers who know only one way to teach a concept and constant humiliation and punishment isn’t making them “try harder”? Then they are “disruptive and need to be on the got to go list”.
Unfortunately, charter operators insist that they be given the ability to decide which “energetic” students to teach and which to characterize as “violent” 5 year olds and suspend over and over again until their parents get the message to pull them out.
That is the only explanation I can find for why so many charter CEOs are so wildly and crazily fighting accountability to the degree that they attack the NAACP as selling out their own children. You are a typical example. You’d rather shout that the NAACP is selling their own children cheap than acknowledge that any white charter CEO who defends a suspension rate of 20% and 25% for non-white 5 years in her charter is a liar. Nope, she isn’t, says Stephen B Ronan. She is telling the absolute truth. If only they were performing at grade level and then those natural violent tendencies you insist that they have would be called being “vibrant and energetic”.
There is something truly disingenuous — in fact, it is corrupt — about people like you who pretend the “market” works fine in education while ignoring the fact that the “market” ENCOURAGES charters to get rid of struggling students who cost more to teach and PUNISHES charters that keep every child. You cannot deny that the incentives in the education “market” are for charters to push out kids who struggle just as private schools do. A private school can get $40,000 for a student and still tell their parents they don’t want to teach him because he isn’t worth it! That is exactly how the “market” works although you keep denying it is true.
It’s why private insurance companies that dump their customers after they get sick fight regulations just as much as you do. They deny they’d ever want to dump a sick patient. “Trust us” they say, we would never do something like that because the market financially rewards us if we do it so we’ll fight any attempt to see if we do. All those sick people who left did it “by choice”.
You’d rather say “sure 20% of the (mostly African-American) 5 year olds in a high-performing charter school are nasty and violent children” than say “the charter school CEO is lying because when you provide a school with a huge financial incentive to get rid of the most expensive kids, they will take it and that is why got to go lists exist.” According to you, got to go list are just some inexplicable idea that an inept principal who happened to be trained by the charter school’s most honored and revered principal made up out of thin air. Not because “the market” rewards dumping as many children as you can when they cost to much. Just like unethical health insurance companies do.
Stephen B Ronan says “we can’t regulate health insurance companies because we must trust that their CEOs will never dump a patient and I insist that there are abolutely no market incentives for them to ever drop a sick patient. Stop oversight now!!
At least, that’s what you keep saying about charter schools so I assume you believe it when it comes to health insurance. Or will happily do so if the people who underwrite you tell you to.
Who taught you basic economics in which you claim that there would never be any incentive for a charter school to drop the most expensive students when the financial responsibility to them ends as soon as they are dumped? Because I suspect the professor would be ashamed to hear you claim that is not how the market works.
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“Are they performing at or above grade level?”
Oops, I neglected to ask them or their adult relatives about their academic test scores, but, in case it helps answer your question, I can vouch for the fact that each has some skills that substantially exceed what I would expect given their grade level.
Excuse me if your message fails to motivate me to share with you the details of family financial circumstances.
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Good job changing the subject.
We both know that the market INCENTIVIZES charters to get rid of every child who isn’t profitable to educate. And by “profitable” I mean that a right wing billionaire will give you tens of millions of dollars if you mislead people into believing you are educating every at-risk 5 year old who walks in the door and turning them into a high performing scholar at a cost that is a fraction of what the wasteful public schools spend. Unless those children are some of the many violent ones, of course.
I can run a charter that keeps every kid and gets mediocre to crappy results or I can run one that suspends huge number of 5 year olds and tells their parents to remove them from the school (as the NAACP report verifies.) If I run the second kind I get much, much richer and if I run the first kind I get vilified as an inept failure.
According to you, the “market” will work wonderfully here!
Just like it will when you give senior citizens a voucher for Medicare and let the insurance companies go hog wild with no oversight allowed except by the people who want to promote more insurance companies!
Of course, you don’t want to address that little problem you free market advocates have.
Instead you’d rather accuse the NAACP of selling out their own children for a union donation and pretend the people who really care about African-American children are the white charter CEOs so talented at identifying the huge number of violent African-American kindergarten children and meeting out suitable punishment to them.
Will you try to change the subject again?
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This past weekend I was talking to a friend who lived in Buffalo but whose grandkids attend a charter school. Her daughter didn’t like the local elementary school and did not pursue options for other schools in the district. Distance must not be an issue since the Charter School is not close to her house.
My friend did not even flinch when I mentioned her grandkids’ education came at the expense of the public school students. In order for hers to have more, they got less.
The problem is that these parents look at charters as a sort of private school education where their kids avoid contact with minority troublemakers. The perception is that the quality is better and they are giving their children a leg up over the other children in their neighborhood.
How do you combat this mama bear mentality?
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Flos56,
The logic is simple. They think they are getting a private school education for free. It probably never occurs to them that they are taking from the majority of students who attend public schools.
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It’s worse than that. Their attitude is:
“I’ve got mine. Screw you.” (Sorry Diane)
And this friend is a decent person, not someone I’d normally label selfish or uncaring.
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Diane and flos56: So the solution has to be at the policy level; not to take anything away from parents who, regardless of attitude, only want what’s best for their children; and certainly not to take away what legitimate choices they have. The solution is to structure and restructure the public school and its environment so it is what parents want and would want for their children–to truly serve everyone in the community and to make it so that public schools are, if not the envy of everyone, qualitative intersections between home cultures and and adult living in a democratic environment where, regardless of their background or problems, children can thrive and grow, starting with what we know about the importance of class size.
Dream on . . . . but you point to just one of the reasons why the charter school advocates’ notion of parental choice is detrimental to the whole that they, themselves, their children, and we live in. Parents should not feel they have to make a choice between their own children’s education and those poor other kids that are being left behind, nor the long-term survival of the country and culture. The reformers probably love it that they can “blame the parent” for making such a choice and, therefore, those reformers shed any responsibility for the long-term effects of what they are doing.
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That’s what privatizers depend on.
There is a reason that the same people who support privatizing public education have worked very hard to starve public schools to keep them as crappy as possible. The more they let public schools rot, the more they create “customers” for schools that only accept the cheapest to teach children.
And then those privatized charters claim that they are doing a good job that they deserve even more money! Which they get and attract even more of the cheapest to teach kids. So that public schools are left with a disproportionate number of students who cost more.
It’s also why people like Stephen B Ronan and his pals hate what the NAACP is doing because that charter your friend is choosing wants to make sure there are any of the kids that your friend wants to avoid in the charter. Sure, the “strivers” may stay, but the rest are not welcome. How dare anyone ask for accountability or transparency that would prevent charters from doing what attracts your friend and parents like her from “choosing” them.
It’s all fine until they find out that their child is not wanted. But it’s like health insurance — people just love their low-cost insurance because they are healthy or have mild illnesses. Then their kid gets cancer, they learn what isn’t covered, and they realize they got played for fools. Or their kid stays healthy and they think they got the best deal in the world because they cannot muster any empathy and have no intellectual capacity to imagine that those “other” parents were at fault.
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Bingo!
Yes, everything you said.
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I am so tired of this debate. When I first heard of charter schools & the ‘school-choice’ mantra, what I heard was, they want to put public education on a retail model, & they’re calling it ‘choice for all’. Public ed already suffers from inequality because of local funding/ residential segregation by income– better schools in wealthy areas, worse schools in poor areas, w/ some (but not much) equalizing aid from fed taxes. The retail model is similar but much worse. Anchor stores depleted by online retailing. Rich areas w/ choice among pricey boutique stores, poor areas with a low-quality box store or two. Global gourmet goodies for the rich, smelly understaffed groceries for the urban ring, food deserts for the poor. How cynical to peddle public ed on this model as ‘choice for all’.
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Another interesting article from Mr. Thompson: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/how-school-reform-made-the-teacher-shortage-worse_us_597d0bbde4b0c69ef70528b8
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