Bruce Baker: Why #PublicGoodsMatter

45 Comments Post your own or leave a trackback: Trackback URL

1. Joseph Nathan says:

   March 31, 2017 at 10:06 am

   Money currently follows youngsters who move from cities to suburbs, or from a suburb into a city.

   With the exception of Hawaii which is a single school district, every state funds schools in part on how many students are enrolled there.

   Reply
   • Duane E Swacker says:

     March 31, 2017 at 10:11 am

     At the same time that money doesn’t follow the student. For if I live in Milstadt, IL and move to South St. Louis County, the money doesn’t “follow” my child from Illinois to Missouri.

     Reply
     • Joseph Nathan says:

       March 31, 2017 at 10:27 am

       Agreed, Duane that stat $ from one state don’t follow students to another state. But state funding formulas do fund districts in part on how many students are in a district. And districts fund schools in part based on how many students are in a school.

     • Duane E Swacker says:

       March 31, 2017 at 11:25 am

       Yes, but that doesn’t mean that the “money follows” the student. To make that statement is a leap of logic that I cannot make and my inability to make that leap isn’t due to my poly-arthritis-LOL!

   • Duane E Swacker says:

     March 31, 2017 at 10:14 am

     And really, the money doesn’t “follow” anyone or thing. That money is allocated by the legislatures and local districts to educate the children who are currently enrolled in a district (as of whatever date in the year is chosen to do the count). “Follow the money” is just a marketing/propaganda type slogan to mislead with what really happens in the funding of public education.

     Reply
     • retired teacher says:

       March 31, 2017 at 11:24 am

       Great conclusion! The money “following” argument completely falls flat without logic. Using that argument, people that plan to retire overseas, should be able to collect a lump sum on the Medicare they won’t use. Or if people die early, they should be able to collect on the Social Security that paid into, but did not use. These funds are not personal savings accounts; they are common goods as are payments for public services like police or fire. We pay for them even though we may never use them, and another person may use some services repeatedly. The problem with a lot of right wingers is that most believe the government should not do anything for people so privatizing common goods makes government “smaller” in their narrow view of the world. If they feel so strongly about “smaller government and personal responsibility,” they should vote to get rid of their own government health care and pensions

     • Duane E Swacker says:

       March 31, 2017 at 11:28 am

       Bien dicho, RT.

   • dianeravitch says:

     March 31, 2017 at 10:35 am

     Joe Nathan,

     That’s exactly what the right-wingers say! So, in Texas, they have a voucher bill that funds homeschoolers, so the money can follow the child who doesn’t go to school at all. Brilliant.

     Reply
     • Charles says:

       March 31, 2017 at 11:21 am

       I have some familiarity with home-schooling, I was an adjunct instructor for a co-operative in Bowling Green KY. Home-schooled children do not “go” to a school building. But they go to school. Home-school parents incur expenses, such as textbooks and internet fees. They attend museums and go on field trips. The parent who home-schools their child(ren), must forego working outside the home for wages, so this is an indirect expense, incurred by the home-schooling family. And the co-operatives sometimes pay honorariums to the adjunct instructors.

       It is only fair, that a home-schooling family receive some financial support from the public purse. And it is fair to receive some rebate on their school taxes, since they are paying taxes to a public education system that they are not using.

     • dianeravitch says:

       March 31, 2017 at 12:24 pm

       Charles,

       If you home school, do it on your own dime, not the public’s.

       Many homeschoolers oppose vouchers because they correctly fear state accountability and mandates.

       For a man with no children, you seem awfully certain about what should happen to other people’s children. As a parent and grandparent, I’d say take your own advice and butt out.

     • Joseph Nathan says:

       March 31, 2017 at 11:36 am

       Diane, that’s what the non-partisan people who work in state legislatures say.

     • dianeravitch says:

       March 31, 2017 at 12:21 pm

       Joe,

       I worked in three conservative think tanks. Selling the public on “the money follows the child” to religious schools, charters, cybercharters was their goal.

       The problem is that there are now senior citizens saying, if education is a consumer good, why should I pay taxes for schools? My children are not in the schools. Similarly, people with no children can ask the same question. Once public education is privatized, only those who use the dollars will feel obliged to pay for it. Bond issues will fail. I do not want my tax dollars to pay for religious schooling; that is a personal, not a public responsibility.

     • Joseph Nathan says:

       April 1, 2017 at 8:10 am

       For many years (and long before district or charter public school choice), some seniors (and some people without children or people who sent their youngsters to private schools) have been asking why they should support public education.

       As an urban public school educator, as well as an urban PTA president, I remember responding to this argument more than 40 years ago.

       Part of the response, then and now, is that public education benefits all of us. An educated citizenry is vital for democracy. It’s also vital for our economy.

     • dianeravitch says:

       April 1, 2017 at 9:32 am

       Public education does benefit all of us.

       When public schools are closed and replaced by corporate chains, it benefits the corporate chains, not all of us. Charters leech the best students and leave the public schools with the most expensive students and less money to help them. Non-profit charters that pay outrageous salaries to their CEO while busting teachers’ unions and churning through inexperienced teachers undermine public schools. If we ever again have a resurgence of democracy in this country, all funding to corporate charters, for-profit charters, and charters that compete as predators to public schools will end.

     • Joseph Nathan says:

       April 1, 2017 at 6:35 pm

       IMHO, Democracy and opportunity are expanding for district & charter public school educators, families and students throughout the country as teachers are being empowered to create the public schools they think make sense – and families are allowed to select among them.
       https://www.teacherpowered.org/

       Democracy and opportunity are expanding as low income families and students are able to select among new options – some district (like the Boston and LA Pilot Schools), some chartered public schools.

       Democracy and opportunity are not served when some public schools are allowed to use admissions tests to exclude students can not pass standardized tests. Democracy is not served when some suburban districts with space in their schools use detectives to exclude people who can’t afford to live in the district.

       Youngsters are not well served when some educators receive huge salaries, when public funds are spent to enrich administrators, when huge sums are used to pay bond houses that sell bonds that are used to pay for buildings, when some schools avoid or resist public reporting and transparency on the way that they spent dollars.

     • dienne77 says:

       March 31, 2017 at 12:04 pm

       Laughing, Joe. There are no “non-partisan” people in state legislatures. That you think so (or that you want us to think you think so) is very telling.

     • Joseph Nathan says:

       April 1, 2017 at 8:19 am

       Having worked with and testified in more than 30 state legislatures from Hawaii to Maine , I’ve found that virtually every legislature has long term, non-partisan staff. These staff do not change when a new administration comes in, or the party in control of the legislature changes.

       I’m not sure what state you are in Dienne, but you might want to check with your state legislature about the non-partisan staff. They are valuable sources of info.

       Equally important, you might want to check for an on-line publication about how your state funds education. In every state with which I’ve worked, the per pupil state funding varies to individual districts in part based on the number of students enrolled in that district. The state funding also depends in many states in part on the characteristics of the students attending school (ie many states wisely put extra dollars into funding students from low income families).

       This link goes to a 2013 summary of state funding of education prepared by National Center for Education Statistics. It states, “In 22 states, at least half of education revenues came from state governments, while in 14 states and the District of Columbia at least half came from local revenues. In the remaining 14 states, Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, Maryland, Montana, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, and Wisconsin, no single revenue source made up more than half of education revenues.”
       https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cma.asp

     • Joseph Nathan says:

       April 1, 2017 at 8:28 am

       Here’s a link to a discussion from the National Conference on State Legislators about legislative staff based on a 2009 survey. It’s the most recent national info I could find. Recognizing that many people who post here are deeply interested in state education policies, the non-partisan staff can be a great source of info – especially if you go through your state legislator(s) to gather info and/or the legislature is not in session. The non-partisan staff is extremely busy during legislative sessions.

       “Most states rely primarily on their year-round, full-time permanent staff for support. However, five states—Hawaii, Nevada, New Mexico, North Carolina and Virginia—each hire more than 300 temporary staff for the session only. The employment of session-only staff has declined since 1979, when they represented more than 37 percent of all legislative employees compared to only 19 percent in 2009. This is a result of lengthening sessions in many legislatures, busier interim schedules and the conversion of session-only positions into permanent ones.”

       The Partisan Percentage
       The balance of partisan and nonpartisan staff has not changed significantly since 2003, another sign that legislative staffing has entered an era of stability. Partisan staff make up the majority of staff in about half the states, but in about a quarter of the states, mostly the smallest ones, all but a very few of them are nonpartisan.
       The 2009 data provide a first-ever look at personal staff, defined as employees who work directly for a legislator in his or her capitol or district office. Personal staff total more than 11,000, almost one-in-three. By definition, these employees are partisan staff, and this is where much of the precipitous growth in partisan staff has occurred in the past few decades. It may also explain the high percentage of total staff growth since 1979.
       Nearly one-half of all personal staff are concentrated in California, New Jersey, New York and Pennsylvania. They help members cope with the challenges of providing constituent services in districts with very large populations.”

       There is more info at this link The report was written by Karl Kurtz, NCSL’s director of the Trust for Representative Democracy and Brian Weberg, director of the NCSL Legislative Management Department.

       http://www.ncsl.org/research/about-state-legislatures/sl-magazine-the-state-of-staff.aspx

     • Charles says:

       March 31, 2017 at 2:08 pm

       Q If you home school, do it on your own dime, not the public’s.

       Many homeschoolers oppose vouchers because they correctly fear state accountability and mandates.

       For a man with no children, you seem awfully certain about what should happen to other people’s children. As a parent and grandparent, I’d say take your own advice and butt out. END Q

       Home schoolers are educating their children at home. They should not have to support a public education system, that they are not using. Rebating some of the money that they are sending up to the government for educational costs, seems only fair.

       Non-parents pay the same school taxes, as people with a dozen children. Since I am a citizen and a taxpayer, I have just as much right to influence education policy, as a person with children enrolled in public schools.My money, my government, my politicians. As long as the government takes my taxes, they are going to hear from me.

       I have known many home-schoolers. One of them, Laurie Morel, earned a national award for home schooling her children. She was presented with the award by the late Phyllis Schafly. I know a home-schooler here in Fairfax, who is educating all nine (9) of their children. I have never met a home-schooler who is opposed to receiving some financial support in the form of rebates or vouchers.

       I am not certain about what should happen to other people’s children. I only know that when children are not raised properly, and educated properly, that they wind up as adults on welfare or in prison. Since all taxpayers pay welfare and prison costs, all taxpayers should be concerned, and influencing these policies.

       As long as I am being taxed to support education (and other government activities), I will continue to speak up. I will never butt out.

       I will continue to exercise my constitutional right of free speech. Are there any other rights that you are opposed to?

       “War is too important, to be left to the generals”- Clemenceau.

       I will add that education is too important to be left to educators.

     • dianeravitch says:

       March 31, 2017 at 3:49 pm

       Charles,

       Narrow-minded ideologues like you who know everything about education without setting foot in a school are hurting the children and teachers of America. You complain, you whine, you make no contribution, you show no appreciation for the dedication of teachers. Your ignorance and arrogance is a painful combination.

     • Lloyd Lofthouse says:

       March 31, 2017 at 5:41 pm

       Charles said, “I will continue to exercise my constitutional right of free speech. Are there any other rights that you are opposed to?”

       There are limits to free speech in the U.S.

       What exactly does the 1st Amendment say?

       “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.[1]”

       The 1st Amendment does not force Diane or any other blogger to allow you to have a soap box on their site or even in their front or back yard. Private sector businesses can also deny your right to free expression on their property.

       It is only Congress that “Shall make no law …. ”

       “Federal free speech protections apply only to the government. The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, for example, does not apply to private employers. … Still, an employer must exercise caution in regulating speech in the workplace.Feb 28, 2014”

       http://www.njlawblog.com/2014/02/articles/employment/the-first-amendment-playing-field-regulating-speech-in-the-workplace/

       Diane has the right to censor you if she wants to and there is little you can do to stop her.

     • Zorba says:

       March 31, 2017 at 6:35 pm

       Lloyd, Charles, or “Chuck” or “Chuckie” as I have called him, has a very narrow, selfish, and unethical view of schooling.
       He’s a selfish jerk, and unfortunately, we are not going to change his little mind.

     • dianeravitch says:

       March 31, 2017 at 6:52 pm

       Thanks, Zorba. I have tried and there’s no hope. Charles is a know-it-all who has no children, never taught, and struts his ignorance

     • Zorba says:

       March 31, 2017 at 7:07 pm

       He does the same thing at Jan Resseger’s blog on WordPress.
       His last comment there said ‘Public school supporters should quit their “bitching”, and just learn to live with reality.’
       That’s pretty damned ugly.
       (https://janresseger.wordpress.com/2017/03/31/12994/)

     • Charles says:

       April 2, 2017 at 5:43 pm

       It is true that I have no children. But I am still a taxpayer, a citizen, and a voter. This means that I have as much input in education policy, as if I had a dozen children. (Just because I never had the honor of having children, does not mean that I am anti-child).

       As long as my government is running public schools, they will be hearing from me, loud and clear. I have to live in the economy, that will be run by the graduates of our institutions of learning (notwithstanding the large number of foreigners, who take all of the STEM jobs). When our public schools fail, and the graduates wind up on welfare or in prison, I pay for this failure. I have a self-interest in ensuring a successful and productive school system.

       Telling people who are not parents to “butt out” of public education policy, is basically “taxation without representation”. I am not a farmer, but I give my politicians advice on agricultural policy (never taken). I am not a meteorologist, but I give my politicians advice on National Weather Service policy. And so on, and so on.

       All citizens, parents or not, have a vested interest in the success or failure of our public school systems.

     • dianeravitch says:

       April 2, 2017 at 5:49 pm

       Charles,

       Unfortunately you don’t know anything about education. Your advice about education has as much value as my advice about engineering.

     • Joseph Nathan says:

       April 2, 2017 at 6:12 pm

       Thanks to each of the people who are posting here. Thanks to Diane for providing the platform for a discussion of education.

       Researchers and experts, as well as parents and citizens disagree about many issues in education. One of the values of participating in this list serve is to learn more about various perspectives, various reports, and other insights. Then each of us can make more informed decisions about what we want to encourage.

       Earlier this week school board members in St Paul asked me help interview the two finalists for superintendent. They asked about ten others as well. It was fascinating and instructive to hear the different perspectives. We agreed on many things, disagree on others.

       Recognizing that some people who post here disagree strongly with some of my suggestions, I still think we are far better off listening to and learning from each other – rather than giving any single group total power over what happens in schools.

     • Lloyd Lofthouse says:

       April 2, 2017 at 6:09 pm

       “As long as my government is running public schools, they will be hearing from me, loud and clear.”

       Charles, what government are you talking about – local governments, where voters vote for thousands of local school boards in thousands of public school districts scattered through the fifty states, state governments where education legislation is voted on by elected representatives who are supposed to represent the best interests of the people, or the federal government that is responsible for about 10-perecent of national spending on public education?

       There is only one government you have a justified right to be loud and clear with and that is the locally elected school board for the public schools where you live.

       Because most of the money that supports public education is raised in the districts where those public schools exist, why do you think you have the right to meddle in the affairs of other community-based, publicly funded, democratic, transparent, non-profit school districts across the country that your taxes and fees do not support?

       If you have an argument for how the federal government spends its 10-percent share of education funding that goes to public school districts, then complain to the feds about those programs, but stay away from all the other states and school districts not one cent of your taxes/fees supports.

       Also consider that federal funding legislation through the years for public education was approved by the elected representatives in both Houses of Congress.

       The public education system in the United States is a product of the democratic process as guided by the U.S. Constitution.

     • Charles says:

       April 3, 2017 at 7:05 pm

       Q There is only one government you have a justified right to be loud and clear with and that is the locally elected school board for the public schools where you live. END Q

       I dispute that. I am a citizen of the Commonwealth of Virginia. I pay Virginia taxes, and I vote in Virginia. I have the right to communicate to the elected representatives, my wants and desires. And they have every right to ignore me.

       I am also a US Citizen. My representative in Congress (Don Beyer D-VA) and my senators, Mark Warner and Tim Kaine (D-VA), often hear from me. I requested my senators support HB610, and they refused. I asked my congressman to co-sponsor HB610, and I have not yet heard back. My elected representatives have every right to ignore me.

       I can also register my wishes with any individual I choose to. My free speech rights do not stop at the state or county line. If I see a policy in Texas or California, with which I disagree, I will tell them And they too, also have the right to ignore me.

     • dianeravitch says:

       April 3, 2017 at 8:13 pm

       Sad, Charles. No one listens to you. Why don’t you write to Trump?

     • Zorba says:

       April 3, 2017 at 9:07 pm

       Diane, ignore Charles. He gets off on people responding to him. The more we ignore him, the more frustrated he will become.

     • Charles says:

       April 3, 2017 at 9:09 pm

       Q Sad, Charles. No one listens to you. Why don’t you write to Trump? END Q

       My free-speech rights do not imply that everyone I speak to, has to listen! If my elected representatives are not inclined to agree with my requests, that is their right. And I have the right to express my displeasure at the ballot box.

       Although I do not necessarily agree with the President’s policies, I have not yet had a reason to write to the chief executive. If I do, he will probably ignore me, or one of the staff will write back with a polite reply.

     • dianeravitch says:

       April 3, 2017 at 10:20 pm

       Charles,

       I too will ignore your comments in the future.

2. Lisa M says:

   March 31, 2017 at 10:22 am

   I like his tweet about the charter fire department. How about a charter police department, too. It’s all about breaking the teacher unions. Who gives a crap about the kids because they have parents that will take care of them. But who will come to put out the fire at your house or to show up when a burglar is trying to gain entry?….firemen and police. Nobody messes with those unions because they know what happens when they go on strike.

   Reply
   • Joel Herman (@jwherman11) says:

     March 31, 2017 at 10:58 am

     Lisa M

     Strikes are something that most unions have become averse to. Because they are rightfully concerned about the commitment of their members. Teachers unions with rare exception have been reluctant to put their membership to the test.

     I would ask; Is who will educate your child as important a question as who will put out the fire?

     But the key thing to remember is that the issue of charters and school privatization does not hit many of the middle class and affluent suburbs.
     It neither affected my children nor the very well compensated professional unionized Teaching staffs that delivered a fine education.

     Only when education policy becomes a problem to these districts, does anyone pay any attention. So here I am in the affluent down state suburbs of NY and the opt out movement is about to grow again . It is no accident that some of the more affluent districts in the Nation are the most active in opposing bad education policy . But the sad part, they would have no objection if the policy only affected the children of the less affluent.

     Reply
   • Charles says:

     March 31, 2017 at 11:23 am

     Q “There is no right to strike against the public safety by anybody, anywhere, anytime,” Coolidge gained a national reputation as a staunch supporter of law and order. END Q

     “Silent Cal” Coolidge did not speak much. But when he did, people listened. see

     https://www.britannica.com/event/Boston-Police-Strike

     Reply
     • Joel Herman (@jwherman11) says:

       March 31, 2017 at 1:03 pm

       Tell that to the NYPD who went on a slow down two years ago
       They cut the number of arrests by 66% and the number of tickets by 94%

       Guess what crime rates dropped . Overtime making arrests at the end of the shift dropped , So the offset in revenue was made up for . So the Job action was stopped (sarcasm noted)

   • Joseph Nathan says:

     April 2, 2017 at 6:15 pm

     Lisa, we have options within public education because many people believe that there is no single best way to organize learning, teaching and schooling. Some youngsters do better in a project based school, or a MOntessori program. Others appear to do better when they are in a more traditional program.

     Some high school student prefer to take all their courses in a high school. Others do much better when allowed to take courses on a college campus.

     I think offering options in public education makes much more sense than offering options in a community with a police or fire department.

     Reply
3. Yvonne Siu-Runyan says:

   March 31, 2017 at 11:01 am

   The public needs to WAKE UP.

   Reply
4. Chiara says:

   March 31, 2017 at 11:43 am

   “Public money supports services and institutions for future generations, not just for those now using them”

   That always struck me as weird in ed reform. When they were doing the “parent votes” to convert to charters I immediately thought of the people who weren’t eligible but would be stuck with the decision. It’s ludicrous. If you have a 4 year old who starts the next year you’re excluded? What about if you’re an older person who built and paid for the school? No say at all?

   It’s like voting on public transportation and excluding it to people currently on a bus. A library vote limited to people SITTING IN THE LIBRARY.

   Ed reform theory becomes nuts when you apply it to nearly anything else.

   Reply
   • Laura H. Chapman says:

     March 31, 2017 at 12:01 pm

     More people pay for schools that are the direct “customers” of them. If public money is attached to a student then all of public education would be far more expensive. So far, we do not have public education totally organized as a “user pays the cost system.”

     Reply
5. NoBrick says:

   March 31, 2017 at 11:52 am

   The funding fallacy seems to rest on another fallacy. The future money fallacy.

   Passing “Public Good” levies, commits future money.

   If we can bring money foward from the future, where is it now, if it’s in the future?

   In order to “Grab” it and bring it forward, it has to be someplace now.

   How do you bring it backward in time from the future to the past?

   And when you remove it from the future, what fills the hole its’ removal creates?

   Reply
6. Lloyd Lofthouse says:

   March 31, 2017 at 2:06 pm

   The corporate education movement also will cause irreparable harm to the economy.

   In a consumer economy, consumers are vital and if consumers don’t earn enough money, or have jobs, to spend beyond rent/mortgage and food if even that, then corporations are going to die in droves leading to a downward spiral that causes civilization itself to collapse.

   The privatization movement leads to short-term profits for the few but over the long run will be economic suicide for everyone.

   Soon, the wealthiest 0.1-percent will start to build their fortresses where they will have to hide from the billions who will eventually start hunting them as war destroys everything.

   Reply
   • Zorba says:

     March 31, 2017 at 6:08 pm

     Yes. But it’s not just that, Lloyd. Do the people who think it’s fine if money and resources are sucked away from the public schools in order to fund charters and vouchers, stop to think that the children left in the public schools (the vast majority of children, in fact), will be less and less well-educated? These are the kids who will grow up to care for us as we become sick and get older, the kids who will become our policemen and firemen, the kids who will be building new houses and buildings and repairing our infrastructure, the kids who will eventually be not only filling a lot of those jobs, but running this country? The 1% can’t fill all these jobs, even the political ones- they are not going to be the ones who become the members of our school boards, the local sheriffs, the local mayors, etc.
     Do we really want poorly educated kids to fulfill all these roles?
     This doesn’t even begin to address the whole ethical thing about doing our best for all our children, which I consider more important, but too many people do not. But maybe they should at least stop and think about the practical ramifications that will affect them.

     Reply
7. carolmalaysia says:

   March 31, 2017 at 2:18 pm

   I just received this update email from Senator Niemeyer of NW Indiana. Looks like Indiana is still experimenting on children to find the ‘right’ and ‘perfect’ test. Now they are looking at an “existing, proven testing product that can be conformed to Indiana’s standards’.

   How long will these politicians continue to play with children to find the right product, which will never be available.
   …………….

   Replacing the Outdated ISTEP Exam

   One of lawmakers’ top priorities this session is to replace the broken ISTEP exam, and this week the Senate Committee on Education and Career Development passed House Bill 1003, which would replace ISTEP after June 2018.

   HB 1003 would create a new statewide assessment program – Indiana’s Learning Evaluation and Assessment Readiness Network (ILEARN).

   To avoid the widespread technical problems that have plagued ISTEP in recent years, HB 1003 would direct the State Board of Education to select an existing, proven testing product that can be conformed to Indiana’s standards.

   This new test would be administered only once, at the end of the school year, resulting in less time away from classroom learning.

   HB 1003 now moves to the full Senate for further consideration

   Reply