Valerie Strauss interviewed Samuel Abrams, director of the Teachers College, Columbia University, National Center for the Study of Privatization in Education, about his important new book, Education and the Commercial Mindset. The book is an in-depth, beautifully written history of the privatization movement.
Read the interview. It will make you want to read this brilliant book.
Here is one small excerpt:
Abrams: Privatization takes the form of nonprofit as well as for-profit school management, as privatization technically means outsourcing the provision of government services to independent operators, whether nonprofit or for-profit. Insufficient transparency and, thus, accountability can become problems. While nonprofit charter operators must file 990s with the IRS documenting expenses and salaries, for instance, many are less detailed in their reportage than they should be. Moreover, these charters report only indirectly, if at all, to elected school board members.
Yet there are far greater issues with outsourcing school management to nonprofit charter operators: First, this outsourcing generates the atomization of school districts, meaning the diminishment of neighborhood schools and the civic involvement such neighborhood affiliation involves; second, this atomization makes for navigational challenges for many parents, who either have a hard time finding the right school for their children or getting them there day after day when the school is across town; third, this atomization translates into “good schools” and “bad schools,” with students who can’t succeed in the “good schools” concentrated in the “bad schools,’ which are often default neighborhood schools, where learning can become far harder given the negative effects struggling students can have on other students. In sum, such outsourcing leads to opportunities at high-performing schools for some students but leaves many others behind.
Privatization accordingly amounts to a flawed response to state failure, not a solution. The solution calls for investing the resources necessary to make all neighborhood schools solid in the way all neighborhood schools are solid in middle- and upper-class suburbs, with well-paid teachers, good working conditions and smaller classes. But we have to go further than that. We have to invest in quality preschool, with college-educated teachers, so children show up to school ready to learn. We have decades of evidence of the positive impact of quality preschool. It’s expensive, but only in the short run. We likewise must invest in school-associated medical, dental and counseling services, which are also expensive but only in the short run. Privatization has brought many bright, dedicated agents of change, but it diverts us from addressing our state failure squarely.
When Strauss asked him what was the change he would make immediately if he could, he said he would abolish the annual testing that was mandated by No Child Left Behind, continued by Race to the Top, and is embedded in the “Every Student Succeeds Act.”

“First, this outsourcing generates the atomization of school districts, meaning the diminishment of neighborhood schools and the civic involvement such neighborhood affiliation involves;” Or, as Garrison Keillor said it more than a decade ago: “When you wage war on the public schools, you’re attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You’re not a conservative, you’re a vandal.”
LikeLike
Communities, neighborhoods, and civic involvement mean nothing to these vandals. They have replaced those old fashioned ideas with power networking, silicon technology, and the worship of ROI.
LikeLike
The privatization network is far more toxic than it was ten years ago when Adams’ wrote his thesis. Privatization has been co-opted by right wing zealots, hedge fund profit seekers and billionaires determined to bust unions and destroy middle class teaching jobs. In addition to destroying the concept of neighborhood schools and neighborhood schools, it has created schools that do not rely on evidence for their instruction, and it has further segregated our populace with splinter schools that are separate and unequal. It has unleashed a bunch of con artists and shams on our children as it has prohibited their parents’ democratic participation that should be the right of every citizen, in the process. With little oversight and regulation, privatization is the wild west of investing, much like the mortgage market prior to the meltdown. “Privatization accordingly amounts to a flawed response to state failure, not a solution.”
LikeLike
Correction: Abrams
LikeLike
Economist Clive Belfield, a NCSPE team member, is familiar with the NBER paper publication process, having published a paper at NBER.
The recent research of David Figlio (NBER research associate), which documented the failure of the voucher program in Ohio, warrants publication in NBER. Is there a date set for its publication?
LikeLike
Ed reform are cheering the newest ed reformer- Donald Trump, Jr::
“The speech also jolted awake the education world because it actually featured some thoughts about schools. This line, in particular, was one the Republicans would do well to incorporate into their message: “The other party gave us public schools that far too often fail our students, especially those who have no options. Growing up, my siblings and I we were truly fortunate to have choices and options that others don’t have. We want all Americans to have those same opportunities.
“Our schools used to be an elevator to the middle class, now they’re stalled on the ground floor. They’re like Soviet-era department stores that are run for the benefit of the clerks and not the customers, for the teachers and the administrators and not the students. You know why other countries do better on K through 12? They let parents choose where to send their own children to school. That’s called competition. It’s called the free market. And it’s what the other party fears.”
How great is that! Public schools are not only “crumbling prisons” they are like “Soviet-era department stores”
Has anyone in the Trump family ever entered a public school? Why are they opining on the public schools that tens of millions Americans support?
Do ed reformers agree that the thousands of US public schools in all 50 states are “like” Soviet-era department stores”?
Why are these wealthy people always bashing our schools? I don’t run around bashing the private schools they attend, although frankly if Donald Trump and his family are the “best and brightest” to come out of the pricey private school system maybe they should reform their own schools.
LikeLike
It’s clearly, past time, to start closing the private schools. Their elitism is distorting the graduates’ understanding about what fuels the American economy. The lesson the students should be learning is that the financial sector drags down GDP, by an estimated 2%. Labor, the engine of growth and productivity, could make America socially and economically great again, without the heavy yoke of institutions “too big to fail”.
LikeLike
I saw someone outside the convention carrying a sign that read, “Capitalism cures poverty.” Rhee-hee-heeally!
LikeLike
“cures”? or “produces”?
LikeLiked by 1 person
We could bar from public office anyone who did not graduate from public school. It’s clearer than ever that our political class now consists almost exclusively of people who wish to hurt the poor (the Republicans and the right-wing Democrats) and bumblers who want to help but don’t know what they are talking about (rest of the Dems).
Things might improve if real Americans took charge for once. I’m not using a racist code word here – by ‘real Americans’ I’m talking about the vast majority, the ones who can’t afford to have someone wipe their nose by snapping their fingers. Most Americans don’t realize how different the political class is from them, and I think the political class, the minority of well-meaning bumblers like the Next President, also don’t know this.
Want to be President someday? Go learn what life is like for the majority. Don’t want to go to public school? Then do something else.
LikeLike
Agree, RJ-
I think it was Gen. Marshall who, after retiring, refused business employment. He said, people shouldn’t make money from having served their nation.
Until the scales find rebalance, the reverse, wealth before service, is a risk the nation can’t afford. The contributions of a few good people will be lost. But, for the greater good, private school education must disqualify citizens from political roles. In current times, the elite have proven to be a threat to democracy and national economic prosperity. There was a time when philanthropy and service meant noble sacrifice. Philanthropy increased the common good. Now, it steals the common good. Those who contribute nothing proportionate, to their pillage of the country and its people, should be prevented access to the U.S. and state capitols.
LikeLike
It’s a feeding FRENZY re: schools. Follow the $$$$$. And trust me, the GOP and DNC like their repressive laws clouded in “helping” our public schools. What a sham.
LikeLike
Ed reformers descended on Cleveland to attack public schools and labor unions:
Here’s Scott Walker opining on how ed reformers have to make at least a token gesture towards supporting public schools, or the public may figure out this is about eradicating public schools:
“It’s really important, not just politically, but it’s the right thing to do, to make that argument that you’re not just looking out for one sliver of students, we’re looking out for all students,” he said.
Have Scott Walker or Campbell Brown ever entered an Ohio public school? They know that they’re sitting in Ohio, right?
We’re the state with the failing charter sector and the voucher experiment that flopped. We’re the state where public schools have lost ground every single year since ed reformers captured our legislature.
https://www.the74million.org/article/2016-gop-convention-live-blog#74-scott-walker-school-choice
LikeLike
It’s really a shame that the insulated, privileged Trump children believe all public schools are terrible.
It’s not true. I could show them lots and lots of strong public schools that are absolutely supported by their local communities.
These people genuinely have no earthly idea what they’re talking about. All that money and all those fancy private schools and they are clueless about the country they live in.
Rauner thinks all public schools are “crumbling prisons” and the Trump children compare them to Soviet department stores.
They must GO BY public schools occasionally, right? They see our schools when they’re being taken from event to event? They think they’re all horrible?
LikeLike
An element of Donald Jr.’s speech appears to be lifted as well. These kids know how to voice an opinion about education, despite the fact they never set foot in a public school. http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2016/07/19/3800113/donald-trump-jrs-speech-also-plagiarized/
LikeLike
So far as I know, neither Donald nor his children ever set foot in a public school.
LikeLike
Trump Jr. said: “Our schools used to be an elevator to the middle class. Now they’re stalled on the ground floor. They’re like Soviet department stores run for the benefit of the clerks and not the customers…”
Compare that to the article in the American Conservative by F.H. Buckley: “What should be an elevator to the upper class is stalled on the ground floor…Our schools and universities are like the old Soviet department stores whose mission was to serve the interests of the sales clerks and not the customers.”
UPDATE JUL 19, 2016 11:55 PM
The author of the American Conservative article told Vox that he was also a speechwriter for Trump Jr.
So Trump Jr. believes that public schools now prevent students from entering the middle class? Seriously?
Coming from an ideology that thinks $7.25 an hour ($15K/yr) is a an adequate incentive to work hard.
The GOP legacy is poverty without hope.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Well said.
LikeLike
Trump Jr.’s speech was revolting in its dismissal of public education.
The GOP is officially opposed to public education and in favor of full privatization via charters and vouchers. ALEC wins.
LikeLike
Neither Trump nor his children attended public schools. They are like the director of “Waiting for Superman,” who started his movie by describing how bad he felt when he drove past public schools and worried about the children “forced” to attend them. He never entered any of them.
Probably the Trumps drive past public schools and see how students are dressed and how they kid around and wonder why anyone would send their children to such a place when they might be sending them to Deerfield Academy or Phillips Andover or Exeter or St. Bernards or Lakeside Academy or Sidwell Friends instead.
LikeLike
Trump’s children attend colleges where — despite their supposedly “superior” education — no doubt they were admitted with much lower standardized test scores than many of the public school students admitted.
Furthermore, they haven’t done particularly well at those universities, either. The phi beta kappa ranks at their universities — which I have never heard of a Trump scion making — are filled with those poorly educated public school students.
LikeLike
The Trump boys attended the Hill School in Pottstown, PA($40,000 per annum) and Ivanka attended Choate.http://jerseyjazzman.blogspot.com/2016/07/school-funding-hypocrisy-presidential.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+JerseyJazzman+%28Jersey+Jazzman%29
LikeLike
Linda
July 20, 2016 at 11:07 am
It’s clearly, past time, to start closing the private schools. Their elitism is distorting the graduates’ understanding about what fuels the American economy. The lesson the students should be learning is that the financial sector drags down GDP, by an estimated 2%. Labor, the engine of growth and productivity, could make America socially and economically great again, without the heavy yoke of institutions “too big to fail”.
The wealthy private school sector is really letting America down, considering the graduates they’re turning out. Clearly ripe for “disruption”.
I’m amused the Governor of Wisconsin took time out of his busy schedule to bash Ohio public schools.
Where’s the Ohio governor we’re paying? Anyone know? Maybe he could devote 5 minutes to the public schools 93% of kids attend. Not doing so hot under ed reform.
LikeLike
Maybe public university, OSU’s John Glenn College of Public Affairs (Sen, Sherrod Brown is on the Board), could initiate a discussion, prefaced with the amount that Glenn’s namesake, public school, loses to failing charter schools (KnowYourCharter.com).
Maybe the College could write a Columbus Dispatch rebuttal commentary, to Fordham’s claim about competition and school improvement. It would indicate that Ohio’s taxes belong to its citizens and, are not, the property of oligarchs.
LikeLike
I read this blog only about once every two months, because it is relentlessly repetitive and just preaches to the choir that wants to return to the good old days when the traditional public school establishment, with the teachers union at the forefront, had a monopoly on K-12 education, and non-affluent parents could just like it or lump it. I sent my two kids to a non-profit charter for several years because of what I regarded as a superior curriculum. My daughter now goes to the neighborhood high school, which provides the best academic choices to meet her long-term goals. I like that her friends are close by, and the high school is overall a positive aspect of the community.
But parents in other areas don’t always have the choice of a good, safe neighborhood public school. They are raising their kids RIGHT NOW, and they aren’t going to wait for unruly, unsatisfactory public schools to improve in the long run, if they ever will. So some of those parents opt for charters, which in my state are heavily and appropriately regulated. I know everyone here wants your monopoly back. Many parents, especially in predominantly minority areas, disagree and want choice.
LikeLike
You are overlooking the fact that the vast majority (90+%) of poor, minority students rejected by charter schools or victims of parental neglect are sitting in those “unruly and unsatisfactory” public schools that have been made much worse due to the charter drain on public, taxpayer funding and a drain on the select students skimmed off when the charters get to choose who they want.
That sir, is immoral. Just take a look at Detroit.
LikeLike
correction: “parental indifference”
LikeLike
The real shame and abrogation of responsibility are that we have allowed funding disparities among schools to be ignored so that some neighborhood schools in poor areas have been starved of resources. No students in our country should attend a school in dilapidated buildings or an unsafe environment.
As far as choice, there may be some decent charters in the real world, but too many are undemocratic and unfair. Overall, most charters feature a one size fits all mentality, and public schools usually offer far more options for diverse students.
LikeLike
…Ah, yes, the good old days… when financial transparency and accountability had a monopoly on service provided by state governments, and when working class parents did not have segregation as an option. You’re right, those were better times. They truly were. Mr. Webster, thank you for taking up the burden of visiting this blog. Reading is hard. But if it’s too much for you, you can stop now.
LikeLike
I have to agree with John about the choices a parent might have to make now. If I still had school age kids and we lived in a struggling area with poor public schools, I would be looking at charter options. I disagree with his summation of what readers of this blog want. The vast majority of us know that poor schools are usually located in struggling communities. Not only are the school resources limited, but the community lacks the stable housing, jobs, social services and medical care necessary for a thriving community. Their children come to school already deprived of what our society should provide for all children. No school, public or private, can combat all these problems alone, and no school should be blamed for not being able to erase the ongoing deficits with which these children, their families and communities are faced. I am not a fan of the educational reform movement’s solutions to the problems we see manifested in the public school system. Good neighborhood schools based on sound pedagogical practice and backed up by investment in the healthy development of the surrounding communities have to become a priority.
LikeLike
The call for “choice” is pure bullshit. Choice is simply code for publicly funded, private schools that weed out the undesirables, and thus maintaining orderly and satisfactory learning environments.
However I guarantee that Success Academy, Rocketship Charters, KIPP or any other charter school will not provide the mostly poor, minority children they serve, anything close to AN ELEVATOR TO THE MIDDLE CLASS. Just not happening. Twenty first century snake oil comes in many forms.
The Achilles heel of the charter movement is that significant growth in cities is untenable. Eventually they’d have to take 90% of the students and would have nowhere to dump the unwanted. Charters have no chance in middle class and upper middle class suburbs, and the uber-wealthy already have their cushy private schools.
Charters are closing ion on their self imposed limitations.
Well come on Wall Street, don’t move slow,
Its charter reform lets go, go, go!
There’s plenty good money on the way
By supplying parents with choice today
Just hope and pray that when the charters bomb,
That you and your money are long-gone
LikeLike
John.
If you watch the 3-minute video, at the Network for Public Education, about how charter schools destroy public schools, it won’t be repetitive because you aren’t aware of or haven’t processed the info.
If you haven’t watched Netflix’s CEO, partnered in a charter school chain, on YouTube, calling for an end to democratically elected school boards, it’s worth viewing.
Gates gave $22 mil. to a group with the marching orders, “to develop charter management organizations that produce a diverse supply of different brands on a large scale”. Bill Gates co-owns the largest retailer of schools in a box, which, where they are sold, cost an estimated 25%-30% of family income. The World Bank promotes them to the exclusion of public education. Gates funds the Senior CONGRESSIONAL Education Staff Network. If that’s repetitive info., you and I just have a different view of what is best for America. In conclusion, if 25-30% of family income further concentrates Bill Gates’ wealth, what will fuel the economy to create growth and employment for your kids?
LikeLike
John Webster,
Please tell us in what state charters are “heavily and appropriately regulated.”
Clearly, you don’t live in Ohio, Michigan, New York, Pennsylvania, California, Arizona, or Florida.
Please let us know. I wait with bated breath to find out where charters are “heavily and appropriately regulated.”
LikeLike
“I sent my two kids to a non-profit charter for several years…”
Say what? Why didn’t your children stay in that non-profit charter?
I bet that some of the top students in your daughter’s public high school did not go to that “non-profit charter”. Are you finding that your daughter is breezing through that high school with her superior charter school education while all those kids are struggling because they were in a public school?
I expect that must be the case if you are so certain that your child’s education was so superior to the other children in that high school in those inferior public schools you bash.
LikeLike
RageAgainstTheTetsocracy July 20, 2016 at 12:53 pm
” Charters have no chance in middle class and upper middle class suburbs….”
I disagree with this. What do you think the reform movement has been all about the last few year?
Why do you think Arne Duncan threw one of the most astonishing temper tantrums about the opt out movement, attacking suburban moms?
The reform movement is desperately trying to market to affluent parents to get them from supporting good public schools. That’s why they NEED the high-stakes testing to be accepted. They will spend any money to convince middle class and upper middle class parents not to trust their own lying eyes but to believe in tests designed to tell parents their children are mediocre because of public schools. That way, charter schools who specialize in shedding low-performing students can market their “free private school” education to insecure parents who think their child will be irretrievably harmed by having to sit in a 1st grade class with “sub-par” students who are unworthy.
The fact that suburban parents have rejected this argument to date infuriates the reformers but it has also made them double down on their determination to convince them otherwise.
LikeLike
I agree with Rage. Charters cannot legitimately scale up because of all the weeding and sifting they do. After they drain the public schools of funds, the neediest most expensive students are left behind with the least amount of resources. It makes no sense. By the way, most schools can get decent results if they can pick and choose students. There is nothing new or innovative about it.
LikeLike
Ms. Ravitch, you can take a deep breath, and you should broaden your reading sources to become better informed. I live in Minnesota, where charters are indeed heavily regulated and are all non-profit, which I know for a fact, having served on a charter school board. I oppose for-profit charters because the incentive, and therefore usually the practice, will be that for-profit schools will shortchange students in order to maximize shareholder returns. I know that there are bad charters, and that some states do a poor job of regulating them, just as some traditional public schools are poorly overseen. I understand that the traditional K-12 world would like to regain its monopoly and have no competition; I regret that my line of work has competitors and that I can’t just tell my clients to take it or leave it. Anyway, I’ll go back to my reading of serious history and literature and leave the blogs alone for now.
LikeLike
I wrote about Minnesota charters on several occasions.
Check out this one: https://dianeravitch.net/2015/02/17/minnesota-star-tribune-reports-that-most-charter-schools-are-struggling-academically/
LikeLike
Yup, it’s all sunshine and unicorns in Minnesota: http://charterschoolscandals.blogspot.com/2010/05/minnesota-charter-schools.html
LikeLike
Anyone who starts in with this ‘monopoly’ rhetoric is lacking in the cognitive ‘umph’ needed to enter a serious conversation about education. Education is not a product.
We know that both benign and malign neglect of public education infrastructure has left individual parents in a tough spot. They may find that for them, personally, a charter school is a better option for their children.
It’s a poisonous choice, and inevitably leads to somebody else’s children getting the brown end of the stick.
This blog is repetitious because the evidence is univocal. Charter schools are at best cash sucks that do the same thing more expensively, while excluding those children most in need of educational resources. At worst they are dens of corruption and child abuse.
And just as I would never take the word of a Clinton or Trump supporter at face value, I would not accept the word of a charter school board member on whether these schools are required to play by fair rules. Every single time someone neutral checks, this is found to be false.
LikeLike
Students are not clients. Education is not a product. I’m afraid that it is not possible for me to take seriously a person using the ‘monopoly’ rhetoric in discussing schools; it is basically conclusive evidence of deliberative incompetence. Got any coherent arguments that do not rely on actively misleading rhetoric?
Like many other groups, charter school boards have a well-deserved bad reputation. Hence I never would take the word of a board member at face value. Prove that your schools are required to play by fair rules with references from neutral parties, or I don’t believe you.
Sadly, benign and malign neglect of public school infrastructure have left many individual parents in a bind. Parents may find that for their children, a charter school is the best option. But in every case, there is some other child getting the brown end of the stick.
This blog is kind of repetitious, much like those discussing global warming denial or creationism. The evidence is univocal; charter schools always are at best cash sucks, doing the same as public schools for more money, or at worst, dens of theft of public funds and child abuse. See this blog and others for reference.
LikeLike
Thanks, RJ. People who love charters, vouchers, and privatization don’t enjoy reading this blog. That’s ok with me.
The blog has had over 27 million page views since April 2012. I don’t aim to please everyone. I aim to inform and give moral support to people who care about public schools and their improvement.
LikeLike
The low level of basic economic knowledge displayed by other comments shows how dismal teacher education is. Education is not a product, but it is a service, and is measured and included in the statistics for Gross Domestic Product. If people providing education services are financially compensated, their work is reflected in the GDP number. In economic terms, a monopoly is created when there is only one provider of a good or service. This blog’s readers want traditional public schools to have a monopoly on K-12 education, and most of them would love to see private schools forcibly shut down.
No amount of evidence will sway the readers here that any charter school anywhere is run honestly with full accountability. In my state, charters are required to have independent audits performed every year by qualified CPAs, and the state DOE monitors the results of these audits. Some poorly run charters have been closed by the DOE, and there have been a few examples of corruption – just like in traditional public school districts. A common sense question: if Minnesota charters are so bad, why are there long waiting lists to enroll at almost every one of them?
Again, I know that everyone here hates the competition from charters and private schools. You want guaranteed employment with little to no accountability for results. That’s a very human desire which I share. But America is not Cuba – we have freedom to choose in many areas of life.
LikeLike
John Webster,
Do you have freedom to choose not to use a public highway?
Do you have a private park?
Do you avoid our national parks and monuments unmentioned?
Do you have freedom to choose a private police force or a private firefighter?
I assume you never use the public library.
LikeLike
Oh, and John Webster, this will disappoint you. Public schools don’t employ me, never have. And I don’t belong to a union.
Keep your aspersions to yourself.
I guess you think teachers are welfare queens driving fancy cars.
LikeLike
John Webster,
There are a number of Ravitch readers, who likely, have a more nuanced understanding of economics, than commenters barking the Koch brand. Some are published in collegiate level business references.
What follows is an example of adverse competitive effect- a colleague of mine had a devastating diagnosis. He went to a prestigious hospital, which reviewed his case and declined to treat. When he returned home, his local doctor explained that hospitals are ranked by success ratios. The cases with highest risk are avoided because they will lower the hospitals’ rankings. You can extrapolate to other examples and hope that neither you nor your family become part of bottom line decisions.
Your assumptions are arrogant, flawed, and numerous.
LikeLike
Linda,
I’m sure John Webster understands that just fine. If a charter “declines to teach” a student whom they have decided is not worth the trouble, that’s a good thing. It’s the market at work. Privatize the profits and socialize the costs. The American way, brought to you by the Republican Party.
LikeLike
Mr. Webster seems to be basically an honest guy. But he also seems to think he can read our minds. Yes, we’re pathologically and ideologically committed to ‘monopoly’. He also detects statements I’ve never seen here, that every single charter school is corrupt and bad. I certainly don’t think so, but the thin edge of honest cases simply doesn’t warrant the destruction of public schools.
In terms of political action, I’m not sure how to change minds. We need to change the conversation, so that more people say “‘Monopoly?’ ‘Competition?’ ‘Basic economics?’ Sorry, we’re trying to have a real conversation here.”
And there’s a lot of people like Mr. Webster. Not all charter school supporters are thieves and ideologues. But I have no idea how to create a counter-meme that sticks.
Obviously I’m not cut out to be a politician. The ‘monopoly’ rhetoric strikes me as similar to evolution denial and global warming denial – but a politician cannot gain any traction by saying these things.
LikeLike
Yes, the public schools are funded and overseen by government employees. So are the police and firefighters. So are public beaches and public parks. So is environmental protection. So are highways and traffic lights.
Do they too need competition?
LikeLike
I don’t get the monopoly rhetoric either other than as a cheap trick to privatize public services. Do we really want to privatize police and fire departments? How about libraries? Just exactly what is the overwhelming reason for turning public services, available to everyone, into private entities available only to those who can afford the cost or meet the private service’s criteria?
LikeLike
More Economics 101. Economists describe a “natural monopoly” as a situation where one provider (because of a unique raw material, technology, or other factors) can supply a market’s entire demand for a good or service at a price lower and/or a quality better than two or more providers. It’s impractical and totally inefficient to have multiple public highways, more than one water or electric utility in a given geography, etc., so those monopolies are either directly controlled by or regulated by government entities.
But K-12 education – actually, any education – isn’t a natural monopoly. There can be different types of schools operating in the same area. Government might have a monopoly on public education tax dollars, but those dollars can be provided to traditional public schools, charter schools, or private schools that are secular. Again, it’s basic human psychology to not want competition for whatever good or service you are paid for providing. But lack of competition is almost never in the public’s interest.
LikeLike
John Webster,
Clearly American society has failed for 150 years since public education has been a “monopoly” all that time, with no public money going to privately managed charter or to religious schools.
LikeLike
In this context, the word ‘competition’ is inapplicable. Can you write in English please?
Your several-times-repeated claim that people here are speaking out of naked self-interest is offensive and unevidenced. So I guess you just want to impoverish America right? Don’t deny it, you self-interested so-and-so. Is it OK if I speculate on your motive this way?
Hey – I know the economics 101 stuff. Also why its key assumptions break down in so many ways, in so many places. Don’t speculate on my training, which is likely much more extensive than yours.
There is not strong evidence, just your Rand-like supposition, that public schools improve with economic competition. So let’s move back from Economics 101 to Evidence 101.
1. If the suppositions of a theory have been falsified, the theory is not supported.
2. The suppositions of microeconomics applied to mass schooling have been falsified again and again.
Therefore, basic microeconomics applied to mass schooling is not supported.
1. If the deductive predications of a theory are falsified, the theory is not supported.
2. the deductive predictions of basic economic theory have been falsified again and again and again.
Therefore, basic economic theory is not supported.
1. There are no nations with a record of success in mass-outsourcing public education to groups that don’t even theoretically have responsibility to students and parents.
2. The few countries that tried, quickly switched back.
3. We want students to be successful.
Therefore, success in mass-outsourcing public education to groups that don’t even theoretically have responsibility to students and parents is almost certainly a bad idea.
Tell me if any of the words are too long for you, junior.
You started politely, but then quickly switched to not-very-subtle accusations of rational incompetence and lack of knowledge. Nobody treated you this way. You don’t know what you are talking about.
LikeLike
Of course the word “competition” is applicable. K-12 schools compete with each other whenever parents have a genuine choice about where to send their kids. Some parents choose the closest public school, others choose another public school if open enrollment is allowed, others choose charters, others choose private. If competition isn’t applicable, why do schools market themselves with brochures, mailers, etc.?
Competition doesn’t automatically improve whatever good or service a provider offers. I think the area where schools across the board need to most improve is curriculum, a long topic to discuss. Most schools pretty much offer the same stuff whatever their legal structure happens to be; as a teacher friend once said, regarding curriculum most schools are just more flavors of bad. At any rate, if competition is inapplicable to K-12, why do many parents spend considerable money, often at great personal hardship, to send their kids to private schools rather than saving their money?
I don’t accuse the traditional public school establishment of being nefarious for not wanting competition for students. I accuse them of being as human as everyone else – they want a secure source of income and job security. I’m extensively educated in economics, but you don’t need an economics degree to realize the truth of that statement.
P.S. to Ms. Ravitch: I thought you were a stickler for civility and opposed commenters cursing at people with different viewpoints. I see – yet again – that standards of civility only apply to the opposition.
LikeLike
Back to polite mode. I’m through with the smug bigot however.
I should add, though, that I share some of his concern with the academic preparation of schoolteachers (which charter schools obviously worsen rather than improving). I often find that both for disciplinary and for general knowledge, B.Ed. graduates very often display shocking ignorance. And I think this obvious fact, almost always denied by teachers’ unions, may be helping drive parents into the arms of the standardized-testing and privatization maniacs.
I was a private tutor for many years, and I helped (I hope!) my student teachers who felt perfectly comfortable telling me they went into education because they ‘could not do math’. Not a paraphrase.
So here we might take some instruction from the Nordic nations. I’m afraid I have to agree that teacher education in North America is a joke. Just like the ‘Master’ of Business Administration ‘degree’.
LikeLike
One more reply junior, then goodbye.
People send the children to private schools to gain access to the hereditary ruling class. By hanging with the sons and daughters of the better-off, they hope to gain future security. Also, they get to avoid the problems in life experienced by the majority.
The instances of choice you cited are different in kind from people trying to buy a better skateboard, in ways obvious to those without careful ideological training.
In a world of plenty, people are entitled to job security. They have kids you know, just like yours.
Civility – I invite you to go to a dive bar in the sketchiest part of town and join a conversation with a group. Subtly and then less subtly, suggest that they are all misinformed and don’t know what they are talking about. Soon after, lying on the floor with a bloody nose, ask the barkeeper why people are so uncivil.
You were uncivil, flippin’ rude and full of yourself. If you can’t sense this perhaps you took too specialized a major in uni.
LikeLike
My thanks to RJ for conceding defeat; when you curse at the other side, it means you don’t have confidence in your argument. Some friendly advice: America is not just one big college campus, newsroom, or union hall. People have different opinions, and if you want to understand the world, you need to escape your ideological bubble, and not rely on the NEA newsletter. I’m curious: why do many traditional public school teachers send their own kids to other types of schools?
LikeLike
Webster’s examples are highly selective. Bridge International Academies is in a monopolistic market. Ambassador Bridge has been, in a monopolistic market, for decades.
LikeLike
It appears that Webster’s mind is closed to all but affirming information.
If it was otherwise, he would be familiar with industries’ political attempt to prevent communities from providing public broadband (competition) . And, he would be concerned about a finding in Ohio, that customers of municipally-owned energy plants paid less than customers in deregulated markets.
LikeLike
Reblogged this on Crazy Normal – the Classroom Exposé and commented:
If we want to fix our schools, then we must abolish the annual testing that was mandated by No Child Left Behind, continued by Race to the Top, and is embedded in the “Every Student Succeeds Act.”
LikeLike
Yes, BUT . . . All we really need to do is defuse it.
ESSA has eliminated AYP and allows states to de-couple student test scores from teacher evaluations. If this can be accomplished, the tests become moot and the standards become mere suggestions for textbook publishers.
Test scores have been shining a spotlight on struggling students, struggling sub-groups, struggling schools, and struggling communities for 15 years. But that’s all it has done. Like shining a spotlight on a homeless person and shouting, “My god, look at that struggling homeless person!” And then coming back every year and doing the same thing, and wondering, “Why is he still homeless?”
LikeLike
“The solution calls for investing the resources necessary to make all neighborhood schools solid in the way all neighborhood schools are solid in middle- and upper-class suburbs, with well-paid teachers, good working conditions and smaller classes.”
I like how the defenders of confining kids to zoned neighborhood schools, and then using money to fix the inevitable inequity that the practice creates, pretend that New Jersey—which received an “A” from NPE for school funding equity and which can be seen with the naked eye from Morningside Heights!—doesn’t exist.
“Research has shown for a half century that children learn more when they are in schools with better-prepared classmates and excellent, experienced teachers, schools with strong, well-taught curriculum, stability and high graduation and college-going rates. Concentrated poverty school . . . tend to have a high turnover of students and teachers, less experienced teachers, much less prepared classmates, and a more limited curriculum often taught at much lower levels because of the weak previous education of most students. . . .
“Money can buy important things such as good preschool training, strong facilities, and educational resources, if it is well targeted, but it does not typically buy the same kind of teachers, curriculum, level of instruction, level of peer group academic support and positive competition, and stability of enrollment of classmates and of faculties that are usually found in white and stably diverse schools . . .”
That passage was written by Gary Orfield and Paul Tractenberg, the latter of whom has extensive experience with the Abbott court cases that have led to most (but not all) of the high-needs districts in hypersegregated NJ receiving substantially more funding than middle-class or wealthy ones. The improvement in student outcomes has been infinitesimal in relation to the extra spending.
The traditional public school district has spent the 60+ years following Brown reorienting and solidifying into a different kind of “separate but equal”—what Abrams labels as a “state failure.” He should hop across the river and see for himself that his solution has extreme limits. For extra credit, he can explain how NYC DOE per-student funding, which will approach an astonishing $27,000 per traditional neighborhood school student in 2016-2017, is an insufficient amount to run the kind of schools he wants to see.
LikeLike
$27,000 is a lot of money. I assume Barbara Byrd Bennett, hand- picked by reformer, Rahm Emanuel, spent a lot per student. From what I read in the paper, LAUSD school reformer, Deasy, spent a lot on I-Pads. Side note- allegedly, Deasy, in his 3 1/2 year tenure, spent 200 days traveling to promote reform… travel subsidized by wealthy donors.
I’d want a breakdown of the $27,000 to see how much of it is spent, in a way, that benefits corporations and administrators, particularly if they are hand-picked by plutocrats.
LikeLike
You are correct that $27,000 is a lot of money. I’m certain that CPS has ever spent anything remotely close to that amount per student.
For a publicly accountable and transparent school district, it is very difficult to find detailed and comprehensive NYC DOE budget information! Fortunately, as a requirement of the extension of mayoral control in 2009, the DOE has to hand over all information to an independent nonpartisan watchdog agency, which in turn is required by law to publish a very detailed annual report on NYC DOE school spending. Here’s a link to last year’s; the new one won’t be out until October. You’ll quickly see that the majority of spending goes to wages and fringe benefits for instructional (classroom) employees. For your back-of-the-envelope calculations: the top-line budget number for the NYC DOE for the 2016-2017 school year is $29.2 billion.
Click to access new-york-city-public-school-indicators-demographics-resources-outcomes-october-2015.pdf
Happy reading!
LikeLike
I find it hard to take Tim seriously when he posts things like this.
His heroes were leading the charge AGAINST universal pre-k in NYC. Tim was right there explaining that it was far more important to give free space to charter schools with tens of millions of dollars in the bank than to use that money for universal pre-k, which he found less than useful.
His concern for at-risk kids ends as soon as they don’t work as public relations props anymore. Period.
LikeLike
Linda, Tim’s assertion that NYC spends $27,000 per pupil is worthy of a Trump!!
I’m sure he was delighted to hear Trump’s son last night bashing public schools. I mean, just like Tim, Trump and his family really CARE about the at-risk kids in public schools.
The $27,000 is because public school students are now charged for much of the overhead costs of charter schools. Public school budgets are not even close to what charter school expenditures per pupil are.
Ahhh, but Tim also adds a little something called “overhead”. See, charter schools want to be free riders. So charter schools get $15,000 per kid and pub lic schools get $10,000. But of course, the cost of all that rent and maintenance and crossing guards, etc. is added to each public school students. They don’t just pay their share, they pay the share of all the kids in charter schools, too!
Tim is obviously a big fan of Trump — he spouts the same nonsense Trump’s admirable son does. They really care about poor kids.
LikeLike
The first time I heard a pseudo-numbers guy bemoan the amount of direct labor costs in a service, I laughed. What expenditure would be more necessary, than the money spent on people engaged in delivering the service, at the core of the organization’s mission? I’d expect a hair salon, to have high salary expenses, a church, to spend a substantial portion of its budget, on its staff, a veterinary’s office, the same, etc.
LikeLike
Right. You were concerned whether the $27,000 was reaching students or being shunted to corporations and administrators. I provided the breakdown which shows that most of it is going to teachers.
The DOE is getting to spend $540,000 per 20 kids, an amount that dwarfs the school budgets in the leafy, high-cost-of-living districts in Connecticut, New Jersey, Massachusetts, California, Maryland, etc. If it isn’t enough, can Abrams or anyone else give us an idea of what would be?
LikeLike
If the buildings are aging, increases in maintenance costs, may be a significant problem. With the special accommodations, required for technology, retrofitting a structure is often more costly than building new.
LikeLike
I think Tim would be far more impressed if a good portion of that salary expenditure in public schools went toward marketing and public relations costs like his favorite charter school does.
No doubt he believes what would make a public school “better” is if they spent far more money in marketing so they can “compete” for high income students whose parents are college educated.
In the reformers’ perfect world, the “non-strivers” in public schools should be underwriting the costs of the students that reformers believe are worthy of a charter school education. (That’s why when he comes up with these faux numbers he always makes sure to charge public school students for the pension costs of every teacher who ever taught in the NYC school system for the last 40 years! — those children SHOULD be paying the costs because they are “less than” charter school kids and their budgets should subsidize the worthy charter school students’ costs.)
The fact that the worthy students happen to be far cheaper to educate is just icing on the cake for reformers! At least, that’s what we are supposed to believe. The reason charters are desperate to market to the cheapest to educate children and adamantly lobby for their right to get rid of the more expensive students is because they really, really care about those at-risk kids.
Tim and his cronies care about those kids about as much as Donald Trump Jr. does. They are convenient to use as props before you throw the ones who you deem “unworthy” under the bus.
LikeLike
School districts spending money to pay teachers. Holy sh#t Tim call the FBI. But no problem paying Eva $600,000 a year.
LikeLike
The district where you work is getting a tidy $26,100 per student in 2016-2017, the sizable majority of it from New York State. That is a bit more than twice the national average, even though your district’s local cost of living is right about the national average.
So let us know what it is going to take! How much to get the kids up to speed so you don’t have to publicly humiliate them on the internet? $30,000? $40,000? $100,000?
LikeLike
Linda, Tim’s numbers are nonsense.
The DOE publishes galaxy budgets (which Tim prefers to ignore). Let’s look at a typical budget for PS 87 in Manhattan for FY 2017:
https://www.nycenet.edu/offices/d_chanc_oper/budget/dbor/galaxy/galaxybudgetsummaryto/display2.asp?DDBSSS_INPUT=M087&Submit=Enter&PROG_YEAR=2017
852 children are being educated at a total cost of 6.6 million dollars.
In other words, PS 87 is spending less than $7,800 per student. And this includes having 2 ICT classes per grade.
What’s weird is that charter schools in NYC spend TWICE as much for the same costs!!!
No wonder they can spend so much of it marketing to middle class kids and sending their students on expensive charter bus rides to Albany to lobby (oops, I mean to “learn” — their mandatory rallies in Albany are not political at all but a learning experience that Tim knows is worth every penny spent.)
I don’t mind people making honest arguments. I do mind this Trumpian approach that Trump and his followers like Tim in the faux “reform” movement have promoted for years:
‘The “truth” is whatever we say it is and what our billions can convince the public is true.”
LikeLike
^^and because I am not trying to mislead, as the reformers do, I will allow that it is unclear whether that budget includes fringe benefits. So let’s charge an addition 40% on top of all of that staff cost (and frankly, I doubt that the fringe is 40% since the teachers are most definitely NOT getting fancy health care insurance). That still leaves under $12,000 per pupil spent.
Imagine if PS 87 was a charter school getting $15,000 per student and spending the SAME amount on salaries. There would be an extra 2.5 MILLION dollars in their budget after spending the same amount on their students as PS 87 does!
What do the charter school folks do with that extra 2.5 million? Now THAT is the 100 million dollar question that Tim does not want to answer.
LikeLike
My daughter lives in a poor state. She’s paying $12 an hour to a person, paid as a day laborer, to babysit her one child. The individual, as a non-professional, receives neither retirement contribution nor paid sick leave.
If, the businesses and citizens, of one of the most expensive cities in the world, are paying 4-5 times that for a professional teacher, with responsibility to educate 15-20 the number, the babysitter takes care of, they are getting a real bargain. On the other hand, they are being shafted by the pay that the charter operators are getting.
LikeLike
Linda
Teachers are often referred to as “high priced baby sitters”.
Lets look at the math based on your $12/hr rate.
That would be $8.00 per child, per 40 minute class plus one study hall period. A typical teacher load for 6 classes (25 student per) is 150 students.
$8.00 x 150 = $1,200 per day!
$1,200 x 180 days = $216,000 per year!
Average teacher salaries are about 1/4 of that number.
So no, we’re not even low priced babysitters because no parent would trust even a 12 year old if they offered to watch their kid for $3 an hour.
The cost per pupil numbers ($27K) in NYC are put into perspective when you realize that teacher salaries and benefits are only about $9K or 1/3 of the total. So 2/3 of the cost per pupil amounts go to aspects of running and maintaining that are not directly related to teaching. You don’t house, feed, transport, and care for 1.1 million children for chicken feed in NYC.
LikeLike
More Trumpian tactics–lying and avoiding questions!
Table 3.1 on p 24 of the IBO report clearly shows that a total of $14,629,478,000 goes to classroom instruction and instructional support (paras). That comes to a little more than $14,000 per student, not $9,000.
And you haven’t answered the question! Your district, located in an area with a cost of living almost exactly at the national average, will spend a cool $26,100 per student next year. How much more do you think you need to right all the perceived wrongs and to have the kids prepared so you don’t have to belittle and mock them for their shortcomings?
LikeLike
Tim,
I am awaiting your apology.
You have 15 minutes or you are gone.
LikeLike
Better education for all, unless you have the temerity to complain about being called something you aren’t.
I’m sorry, Diane. I am happy to provide my bona fides to a mutually acceptable third party who can maintain confidentiality.
LikeLike
Tim, not good enough. I have never interfered with your ability to post here.
That is not an apology.
You are now in moderation, where I will review your comments before posting them.
If you continue to insult me, you will be permanently blacklisted.
LikeLike
Tim,
I didn’t ask you to present your true name to anyone. I asked you to stop insulting me. I asked you to apologize for calling me a liar. You didn’t do that.
LikeLike
Tim,
I won’t approve any of your comments until you apologize for calling me a liar.
LikeLike
Many teachers could technically, handle a PR position like Tim’s. Few PR people have what it takes to be a classroom teacher. It’s an opinion that I think research would prove. The measurement of employee willingness to mislead, as a variable, might skew the results.
LikeLike
Yeah, sorry, no. Diane has borrowed from the Trump playbook and lied over and over again about my being a PR person, and it just isn’t true. I work in a field wholly unrelated to education (as does my partner) and I have connection at all to any charter schools. My children attend a variety of high-needs, ethnically and racially diverse NYC DOE traditional public schools.
But you go ahead and keep on Trumpin’.
LikeLike
Tim,
When you accuse me of lying, which I have not, you skirt close to being permanently excluded from my living room. Apologize or get out.
When a commenter posts daily, several times a day, in defense of charters and specifically of Eva’s charters and its practices, it does give the appearance of being a spokesman for that corporation.
Your denial does not constitute a fact. Your postings do.
Apologize or get out.
LikeLike
“How much more do you think you need to right all the perceived wrongs and to have the kids prepared so you don’t have to belittle and mock them for their shortcomings?”
The narrowing of student knowledge has nothing to do with needing more money. It has everything to do with vise grip of test-and-punish reform and its effect on the narrowing of the curriculum, combined with a prevailing test-prep centric pedagogy. My comments had nothing to do with mocking or belittling my students and everything to do about criticizing Common Core math and companion testing. The topic I was referring to (the meaning of pi) is not tested – so it is not taught! That was and is my point. The promise of in depth math instruction was a lie. Math instruction is no deeper the narrow slices that appear on Pearson’s tests. Please stop misrepresenting my comments.
LikeLike
“Gustav Fridolin, Sweden’s rather youthful education minister, emerges from behind his desk in a pleasant office in central Stockholm wearing what looks like a pair of Vans and the open, fresh-faced smile of a newly qualified teacher.
The smile falters when he begins to describe the plight of Sweden’s schools and the scale of the challenge that lies ahead. Fridolin, it turns out, is the man in charge of rescuing a school system in crisis.
Sweden, once regarded as a byword for high-quality education – free preschool, formal school at seven, no fee-paying private schools, no selection – has seen its scores in Programme for International Student Assessment (Pisa) assessments plummet in recent years.
Fridolin acknowledges the sense of shame and embarrassment felt in Sweden. “The problem is that this embarrassment is carried by the teachers. But this embarrassment should be carried by us politicians. We were the ones who created the system. It’s a political failure,” he says.”
Is there any discussion of this at all in ed reform? This privatization effort was a disaster.
There are thousands of paid ed reform advocates. No discussion of Sweden?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/10/sweden-schools-crisis-political-failure-education
LikeLike
Shocking! A politician that blames politicians and their failed policies rather than teachers. Refreshing!
LikeLike
The very existence of ed reform advocates and their PAY is dependent on ignoring the truth. Why on Earth would publicly state, “My god, look at the disaster Sweden’s education system has become. Now let’s keep the US going down that same path.”
When it comes crashing down, I doubt that paid ed reformers will feel any sense of shame or embarrassment.
LikeLike