Lynn Stoddard, a retired educator, writes about the damage done by trying to standardize what is inherently non-standard: a human being.
His solution: Let teachers teach. Encourage them to recognize and magnify individual differences. Standardization doesn’t work for unique human beings, which each of us is.
He writes:
Perhaps the largest damage to our culture is the countless people who have died with their music still in them because they attended schools devoted to standardizing students. An eighth-grade boy in Farmington composed music for full orchestra, with 29 instruments — brass, woodwinds, percussion and strings — a piece that was so good it was chosen to be played at the State Music Educators Conference. Sadly, he did not go on to become another phenomenal composer like Mozart or Andrew Lloyd Webber, because he had to spend so much time with higher math and other required subjects.
What would American culture be like if teachers had been respected and trusted enough to determine the learning needs of each student and help him or her develop unique talents and use them to benefit society? What would have happened if, instead of trying to make students fit a standardized curriculum, teachers had helped students magnify their positive differences?
We can get some answers from the only teachers who are now allowed to personalize education: athletics coaches and arts teachers. These teachers see benefit in letting students try out for positions on the athletic team or for a part in the school musical. Coaches understand why sprinters should not be required to throw the shot put, or weightlifters to high jump. Choir teachers understand why high tenors cannot sing the bass part.
Let teachers teach, and let every child attain his or her full potential.

With all due respect Mr. Stoddard, as a teacher of English literature and a die-hard student of American history, standardizing kids is, indeed, the point of Ed Rheeform.
The first point, of course, in this increasingly neoliberal, oligarchical plutocracy, is profiting off the public by enriching themselves with their tax dollars.
The second point is social/political: Maintain power and a stanglehold by indoctrinating students to keep cubicles filled, reports typed, phones answered, units shipped, burgers wrapped, fries in happy meals, shelves stocked with low-quality lead-contaminated product from some 3rd world Asian s-hole without labor laws—all without asking any questions whatsoever.
“Dark Money” by Jane Meyer…this will be a refrain from me here on out…
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Whoops, Ms. Stoddard….sorry about that….
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Didn’t you mean: “. . . is profiting off the public by enriching themselves with OUR tax dollars.”
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Reblogged this on Mister Journalism: "Reading, Sharing, Discussing, Learning" and commented:
Diane Ravitch post: Lynn Stoddard, a retired educator, writes about the damage done by trying to standardize what is inherently non-standard: a human being. His solution: Let teachers teach. Encourage them to recognize and magnify individual differences. Standardization doesn’t work for unique human beings, which each of us is. He writes: Perhaps the largest damage to our culture is the countless people who have died with their music still in them because they attended schools devoted to standardizing students.
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“Nonstandard Deviation”
(versification of Yong Zhao –aka “The Zhao of Education”)
Deviation from the norm’s
Anathema to school reforms
But variance is future’s seed
Not a thing that we should weed
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I had a group of 13 year olds in my car yesterday and they love this song we heard on the radio- they all know the words and they were all singing.
So funny- the lyrics include “student loans” as one of the reasons they don’t want to grow up 🙂
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NAEP scores are down again this year, especially math, suggesting that we’re losing more than the well-rounded qualities of education. Thanks a lot, Race to the Bottom.
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You know the drill. If the scores are up it means ed reform is working. If the scores are down we’re not supposed to rely on the scores and anyway that just means we double down on ed reform.
I listened to part of Arne Duncan’s appearance at a think tank yesterday. He has not changed ONE WORD of his recitation since 2009. They could literally just play his speeches and let him stay home.
Everyone was nodding in agreement. I do not think one can get a job in DC without repeating this mantra. It’s self-selecting.
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“The Duncan bot”
The Duncan bot repeats
The things it said before
With everyone it meets
Reform forever more
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“He has not changed ONE WORD of his recitation since 2009.”
Well, there’s not enough upstairs to be able to rearrange anything.
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If I may, I would like to add one more subject that is not yet standardized: debate. I don’t coach kids who do Lincoln Douglas debate the same what that I coach kids who do National or Foreign Extemp. And the fun part is that my kids can try different events until they find what they’re good at.
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Imagine the “Lincoln-Duncan” debate
Lincoln: Standardized Testing is intended to keep slaves in their place!
Duncan: Oh, you’re just like one of those white suburban moms whose kid is not as a smart as you thought they were.
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The almost exclusive emphasis on math and ELA instruction and testing has dominated the education landscape for 15 years. Common Core has given us ever narrower versions of these two disciplines. In a country where we celebrate our fantastic mosaic of human diversity, our schools have been forced to focus on just two monochrome tiles in the equally fantastic mosaic of knowledge, skills, and ideas.
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“Let teachers teach” – I have heard this many times before here and other places. However, this places a HUGE assumption that all teachers are doing what they should be doing. I don’t agree with everything that Kaya Henderson or many of her “ed reformers” state, but those here who argue against all of the “ed reformers” – do you know of cases (either personal or reported) where students were given A’s and told they were doing great work, only to get to college and find out that their HS diplomas were worth less than the paper they were written on? “Let teachers teach” – so, it’s ok for a math teacher to spend the entire year teaching material that is way below grade level, giving kids A’s in the class, only to have them struggle or flunk out of the first year of college? OR even worse get A’s but still end up in remedial math classes, which they must pay for but there is no credit.
I know, I know – if administrators had done their job right, if others had done their job, etc. Part of the movement towards accountability is that there weren’t enough folks doing their jobs.
Also, if we leave the jobs to everyone else – is it ok that a student in State A only has to take two years of math where in State B they get 4? Why should a child get less just because of where they were born (hmm…sounds similar to the argument that poverty impacts education, doesn’t it?)
There HAS to be a balance – I’m not sure what it is, but there HAS to be one.
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The balance existed naturally when the system was left alone. My experiences as a student (K to 18) started in 1961 and ended in 1987 with a few years off between under-grad and grad school.
Over the course of those 18 years in probably 80+ different classrooms with 80+ different teachers, I experienced a very reasonable balance of curricula, teacher expertise, teaching styles, teacher demands, testing, hands-on, and extra-curricular experiences. As did we all.
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“Part of the movement towards accountability is that there weren’t enough folks doing their jobs.”
No. Never forget that “accountability” is a bullshit term/concept made up by people who want to remain in control and in charge.
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” do you know of cases (either personal or reported) where students were given A’s”
Yes I have personally experienced this. In elementary school we only got Ns (Needs improvement) and Ss (Satisfactory) and I did get some “easy” Ss. In JHS I got a few “easy” As – and some very difficult Bs. In HS same thing. In college (pay your fee and get your B) same thing. There isn’t a college student alive who didn’t as some point take that “easy A” class to boost their GPA.
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Grades are a lie, a falsehood, a complete abomination of educational malpractice. Just because they have been fashionable for around 100 years doesn’t mean that they ever had any validity whatsoever. They haven’t.
Grades are to the teaching and learning process as what the four humours were to the healing arts.
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Yes, Lynn Stoddard’s philosophy sounds so beautiful in theory, but I wonder how many teachers have been faced with all the “remedial” readers in one class, or all the “bubble kids” (those 10 points below in reading/math but where admin thinks the teacher will get “the most bang for their buck”). The miracle is that the young person who wrote the music was recognized, probably by a teacher, to perform at a conference. But if a kid can’t read, write, or compute in high school, should we really just let him or her be and look for another talent? I know, the argument will be all kids in high school have these skills at some level, but there are kids out there who can read at a 10th grade level, but don’t comprehend a thing. How do you think they do on standardized tests, and if we have NO standardized tests at all, how the heck do we make any sense of how we’re doing?
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jlsteach wrote: “”Let teachers teach” – I have heard this many times before here and other places. However, this places a HUGE assumption that all teachers are doing what they should be doing.”
No need to assume that all teachers are competent. Just the vast majority. As with any profession, there will be people who aren’t doing a good job. So what? To demand that all teachers be competent is some version of the perfectionist fallacy.
I think that the real assumption on the part of jlsteach is that standardization and standardized testing is the only way evaluate teachers. But such an assumption is obviously false. There are many ways to evaluate both students and teachers that do not use standardized testing. Just think about what was done before the standardized testing craze.
I attended a gifted program in the 1970’s while in elementary school. My schooling was anything but standardized, yet I received an excellent education from very good teachers. We did not waste time on endless standardized tests and test preparation.
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Under reform, we are forced to place children in high school math classes who are not ready. State law. All students are to take two years of algebra and a year of geometry, then a fourth year of math. Students not ready for algebra are not given remediation when they are 9th graders. The state mandates that start their senior year. It does not work. Students are not getting what they need, only what politicians want to claim. No balance here. Beam me up.
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Eric…so if we assume not all teachers are competent do we have a lottery and day to those that get the poor teachers,” oops sorry” actually what we usually do in schools is give the struggling kids, the ones that need the best teacher, the worst ones.
And you are wrong. I do not think that VAM or having test scores should be tied to evaluation. I do think that we can’t trust teacher made tests only. Dr Ravitch has suggested NAeP…I also don’t think we need yearly tests. But honestly there are some teachers I trust and others that I do not…I also disagree that a teacher or a student is just a number. And that data can be useful or harmful depending on how it’s used. But that doesn’t mean one should not collect it at all
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Why does there have to be “A” balance? Is there such a magic mixture that assures that all children from all over the U. S. will graduate from high school college and career ready? I think I know where you are coming from. I worked in a system whose standards for a large segment of their school population were far lower than those required in my home district. However, if the expectations of my home district were required in the district with lower expectations, I doubt the results would have astounded anyone. There were too many other out of school factors that influenced the school culture. There were no quick fixes. I think we need to come up with some new questions rather than trying to reduce “readiness” to a simplistic one size fits all accountability paradigm.
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When I taught French, some of the best students that loved the language would drop it in their junior year because it competed with advanced science and math classes. Some of them would come in and apologize for their decision, but the math and science would be more highly regarded on their transcripts.
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I’d just like to note that the Common Core promoters told parents repeatedly that the tests were not “high stakes for students” which was apparently not true:
‘In a crucial decision for high school students, the Maryland State School Board is expected on Tuesday to set the passing scores on tough new tests required to earn a diploma.
With thousands of students now failing the tests, the school board must balance its desire to have high standards with the reality that keeping those standards would prevent many students from getting a diploma.’
On last spring’s Partnership for Assessment of Readiness for College and Careers tests, about 45 percent of students passed the 10th-grade English exam and only 40 percent of students passed the Algebra I test. If the state lowered the passing score to three on a scale of one to five, with five being the highest, the pass rates would rise to 65 percent for Algebra and 74 percent for English.”
I don’t know- do they care at all about credibility? If the Common Core test was intended to be used this way, why didn’t they tell people that? We were told the opposite.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/education/bs-md-graduation-preview-20160426-story.html
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With reform the the foxes are in charge of the chicken coup. Decisions regarding graduation requirements are not being made by educators. Decisions are being made by politicians, very often under the influence of business leaders. Since they don’t really understand what they are doing, they are making unrealistic or inappropriate decisions including the misuse of scores about graduation requirements. It will probably take some challenges in the form of lawsuits to get them to back off. Several states are making these blunders, but this is what happens when educators are barred from making decisions about education.
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These PARRC scores disprove the fundamental hypothesis of test-based reform:
Higher standards + Harder Tests = Higher Achievement
They could have saved the country a lot of time and money by asking teachers and administrators. Many a teacher has tried this at the classroom level and it ultimately fails until we find that sweet spot of
“just-right-rigor” for any given class or individual. Creating a “common” level of rigor for all requires a lot of trial and error until they find the sweet-spot. Finding the sweet-spot for 50 million different children is IMPOSSSIBLE.
And in the best practices of all outsiders who impose ideas with no attachment to results, they get to blame the teachers and schools for improper implementation.
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Rager,
“They could have saved the country a lot of time and money by asking teachers and administrators.”
NO! However I would agree if you dropped the “and administrators” part. I’ve seen very few adminimals that have any critical thinking skills whatsoever.
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I don’t know what I was thinking when I typed “and administrators” .
sorry about that.
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“the damage done by trying to standardize what is inherently non-standard: a human being.”
Enter the so-called “experts”. Experts that are often wrong (damage done),BUT
seldom in doubt, of their ability to “concoct” a finite “remedy” for an infinite
situation (the inherently non-standard human being).
Is the current social order the result of the “experts”, or in spite of them?
Will the afflictions of the system (damage done) be “cured” by another “dose”
of the system? Will the problems be solved by the level of thinking that
created them?
To date, the system-generated “experts” offer the prevailing social explanation,
that tends to perpetuate the given social order. (Antonio Gramsci)
If we get off the myth-ferris wheel, we could move.
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I think it’s interesting that the arts are mentioned in the last paragraph.
They are historically the first subjects to be cut – so many students never have the option of benefitting from the various disciplines included.
“We can get some answers from the only teachers who are now allowed to personalize education: athletics coaches and arts teachers. These teachers see benefit in letting students try out for positions on the athletic team or for a part in the school musical. Coaches understand why sprinters should not be required to throw the shot put, or weightlifters to high jump. Choir teachers understand why high tenors cannot sing the bass part.”
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Reblogged this on Politicians Are Poody Heads and commented:
“Talent lost,” indeed. Children, in fact all people, should not be viewed as mere cogs in a machine, but as individual humans. Humans with different strengths (and yes, weaknesses), different talents, different interests.
How to engage individual students and encourage those interests and talents (while still teaching them what they do need to know to become functioning members of society and informed, critically-thinking citizens and voters) is the essential task of education. Not trying to fit students into the machine as cogs.
But maybe that is one of the main goals of all the standardized testing and teaching to the tests, at the expense of the arts, PE, and, let’s face, critical thinking skills, which seem to also have gone by the wayside. Maybe they want uncritical cogs, who will accept and do what they are told.
Well, that, and the opportunity for edu-businesses to make more money.
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So I find it interesting that many have continued to rant about testing, etc. but only one person has addressed my comment (and that post was certainly not a solution)
To RageAgainstTheTetsocracy, in terms of accountability being a loaded word…Let me share an anecdote. Brand new school, I am teaching Algebra II to 9th graders (who supposedly were amongst the brightest having had Geometry and Alg I)…In their own words the students share stories of the teacher not doing anything in their class, how he (or she, I forget) just gave them all B’s…Is that ok? Is some type of accountability needed there? Because what I had to do was reteach many skills they should have had in a short amount of time while also teaching new material (because I did not want to start the cycle of teaching them old material in the higher class)…
Such stories are more common than not in education – and you say we don’t need any accountability?
To the others who are anti-PARCC and anti-testing, etc. I agree there is too much test prep. I agree that teachers should not be judged on test scores. I also agree we need more arts, PE, etc. BUT that doesn’t mean that there should be no accountability.
Again – I’m open to reasonable solutions..Too often people on this blog (and other places) rant against what’s wrong without offering concrete answers…
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What’s your concrete solution to the problem of a 9th grade algebra teacher giving everyone a B?
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Well, a few things: 1) if there was more accountability maybe that teacher would feel some sense that he or she could NOT just give anyone grades, that others are impacted, 2) if there was a system in place where administrators felt empowered to remove poor teachers like this one (I know, it also could be a lazy administrator – but that’s another issue in itself) then maybe the teacher would feel more motivated to not just give kids grades
Note – I said MAYBE in these cases…Not enough time here to list out an entire plan, but I think that if such plans were in place, it could be a start.
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Not sure I’d call these “concrete solutions.”
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FLERP – I posted one idea (having more role as teachers/administrators)…Sorry I can’t post everything there…I also posted some general ideas.
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jlsteacher, I am in favor of accountability for politicians first. They have the power. Let them be accountable before they impose burdens and mandates on everyone else.
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jlsteach,
See my response above. Again grades are a COMPLETELY INVALID method of assessing student learning and work. So, any talk of grades then vs now, of accountability for grades is all mental masturbation.
Just saying it as it is.
Duane
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I would disagree that “such stories are more common than not in education”. But I agree that they do happen and they are wrong. It is inconceivable to me that the supervisor of the math teacher who gave all B’s was unaware of that practice – didn’t they skim through the kids’ report cards? Or talk to the kids?
When wrong stuff continually goes on in a classroom, it’s well known – the kids know it and so do other teachers. But it’s the supervisor’s job to address it. I learned early on in my duties as a union rep that many who get the big bucks don’t like that part of their work.
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Christine – Thank you for at least agreeing that such situations occur. And yes, part of this is lack of oversight by the principal/administrator (often they are only worrying about the number of failures) And yes, to those of you out there saying that one reason this happens is because administrators are focused on things like test prep, testing scores, etc. I agree with you. It’s one reason that I think that if you had teachers take on admin roles (like observation) that this could help. In terms of paying these folks – one person noted that having a teacher take on fewer classes could mean either larger classes OR hiring other teachers, I don’t have the perfect answer for that. But I think it means taking a really critical look at school budgets. In some cases there is a lot of “dead weight” on budgets – positions on the school budget that are being paid but not doing work, etc. I also think that sometime folks are overpaid for their positions due to closeness with the administrator…Such things have to be looked at as well…
Christine, I don’t have records on this, but I do think it happens more than you would say. First, a teacher would never admit do doing this, so there would be a hard way to get survey data. Second, usually no one (teachers, students) are willing to speak up and say this is happening. Most students in middle and high school (or even college) would take an easy grade for doing little or no work. It’s only later when they wish they had someone holding them accountable
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At the moment, we have somewhere around 50 people who have been tagged as ineffective and who may lose their jobs (only a couple are under 50, and most of them are teachers of color, but that’s another part of the story).
Seeing the writing on the wall a couple of years ago, the Boston Teachers Union researched and spent a lot of time trying to set up a PAR program – Peer Assistance and Review, then negotiated it as part of the CBE. Teachers who have received poor evaluations can enter voluntarily into the program, which buys them time, if nothing else, before a dismissal can go forward. They get a second evaluator, who is a peer, called a Consulting Teacher.
http://btu.org/member-resources/peer-assistance-and-review-par-program/
We have also set up a Peer Mentorship, which provides a non-evaluative support system.
http://btu.org/whats-working/peer-mentoring/
We honed the distinction between programs because there had to be argeement that it was okay for a peer to act in a supervisory capacity.
Both of these programs have worked pretty well, both for the kids and the grown-ups. But neither of these programs would address the issue you raise. If it’s obvious a teacher isn’t doing their job, but the administrator doesn’t take steps to address that problem, nothing will change.
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Christine – That is great that BPS implemented PAR – I have seen that done in Montgomery County, MD and I think that it should be done in more districts…one question for you (and others) is WHY aren’t more districts doing it?
In terms of my scenario, you’re right, PAR may not catch that teacher. And administrators HAVE to be willing to do their own work. That being said, as you mentioned kids, and teachers, hear things. I feel that there needs to be a process that teachers can express their concerns about their colleagues without being punished (OR, on the other hand, without it being a witch hunt where things are said because they don’t like the person, etc)
To others on here, to me PAR is a reasonable solution…
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“…one question for you (and others) is WHY aren’t more districts doing it?”
It costs money. You have to pay teachers not to teach but to mentor, support and supervise other teachers.
It’s not a speedy process.
The administrative team has to relinquish some power.
Teachers have to buy in.
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So, yes, it costs money – but isn’t that money better spent than having to lose teachers (and then hire new ones and retrain them again?)…And yes to the admin team relinquishing power and yes to teacher’s buying in.
But this gets to one of my main points – why are folks so afraid of being evaluated? If you are doing your job correctly, there should be nothing to fear (I can already see the sharks circling about planning to write how this is so polly-ana of me, how folks have been dismissed unjustly). that being said, there are some that have claimed here that we should have assessments and let teachers teach and that the number of poor teacher is so small that we should have accountability…I wonder which is greater – the number of teachers that have been unjustly removed or the number of teachers that are still teaching that are not strong teachers?
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“But this gets to one of my main points – why are folks so afraid of being evaluated? If you are doing your job correctly, there should be nothing to fear (I can already see the sharks circling about planning to write how this is so polly-ana of me, how folks have been dismissed unjustly). that being said, there are some that have claimed here that we should have assessments and let teachers teach and that the number of poor teacher is so small that we should have accountability…I wonder which is greater – the number of teachers that have been unjustly removed or the number of teachers that are still teaching that are not strong teachers?”
I think evaluations can be punitive and I also see a movement underway to circumvent the evaluation process and still purge the system of older teachers.
I mentioned that we have about 50 teachers right now looking at dismissal. I don’t think they all became ineffective at once and it’s only just been noted. Evaluations are framed in such a way that once you’ve been dinged, it’s pretty much a downward path. We have significant numbers of principals who are short timers in the classroom. Many of them are uncomfortable with veteran teachers (especially union reps) who question mandates and push back against imposed policies which violate the CBE. These principals tend also to be young and reformy. They want fresh, new, young, cheaper teachers who are “a good fit” for their leadership style, i.e. they don’t yet have families, don’t mind cell phones calls through the evening hours, and answer email when summoned even if it’s the weekend or vacation.
The result has been that we have another group of teachers now called Suitable Professional Capacity – I think the number is about 125. As more schools have morphed from “traditional” to “pilot” or “innovative” or “turnaround” or turned over to charter management (so-called failing schools), principals can hand pick their staff and turn out ones they don’t want. The vast majority in this group received excellent evaluations, but currently have no classrooms of their own to teach in – they’re floaters. They can’t be fired and senority has protected them so far from losing their jobs – some of them are women who have returned after taking maternity leave, others after recovering from a long medical leave. But the school department and the press keeps harping on the cost and want them gone, like so much jetsam. Meanwhile, real vacancies are filled by new hires off the street, most recently through TNTP. In the worse case, some SPC teachers have been assigned to work with the newbies, who are the teachers of record.
One of the refrains I hear is that “we have to change the culture” in schools. In the same way that China is destroying the Tibetan culture by moving large numbers of Han Chinese into Tibet, our schools in Boston are seeing a grand movement of “out with the old, in with the new”.
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Dr. Ravitch – that is a chicken and egg thing…we can wait for accountability of politicians (superintendents and principals are not elected officials – I know that State Board of Ed, mayors, presidents are, but…). Why does the accountability of one group have to happen before we make another group accountable. And while I appreciate the sentiment (and agree politicians need to be held accountable), rhetoric only gets so far…we need solutions to concrete issues.
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jlsteach,
Identify one “concrete issue” for us (and not I’m not accepting grades as the issue). TIA, Duane
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A fellow teacher after reviewing the first few chapters of my upcoming book asked. “What are your solutions?” I laughed and replied, “Diane (yes, that’s her name, no last name though-ha ha) that’s the question that adminimals ask to shut up those who challenge their decisions. I know you didn’t mean it in that way but. . . ” She replied “But you know that is what is going to be asked”. I concurred. And immediately sat down and wrote the Afterword for my book”
Afterword
‘If you shut up truth, and bury it underground, it will but grow.’ Emile Zola
A tactic of administrators or any powers that be to silence those bold enough to critique their policies and practices, even after agreeing with one’s critique, is “Well, you’ve criticized what we are doing but “What is your solution?” usually said with such tone and emphasis as if they have now trapped the perpetrator in a debate dilemma. The administrator knows that it is impossible to come up with a feasible solution to your critiques in the minute or two they allot you to do so solving their problem of the critical thinker in their employ. They walk away smug in their confidence that they’ve won that verbal battle. And you’re left standing there thinking “What a smug ass bastard!”
It takes an immense amount of ego, of hubris and gall to think that one person can solve long standing, seemingly intractable structural problems in the public education realm especially on such short notice. To attempt to do so guarantees failure. Not only that but who am I to propose solutions for everyone else? Our society doesn’t work that way. So I offer no specific answers but I do offer some general guidelines in struggling to lessen the many injustices that current educational malpractices entail:
• Correctly identify malpractices that hinder the teaching and learning process and that cause harm to or do injustice to students. (see just a few identified above).
• Immediately reject those malpractices, cease doing them as soon as is practically possible.
• Maintain a “fidelity to truth” attitude in identifying those malpractices and instituting new practices.
• Focus on inputs and resources. Are they adequate to have all children be provided with the learning environment in which they can learn to “savor the right to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and the fruits of their own industry?”
• Involve all, interested community members, parents, students, teachers, aides, other support personnel, administrators and the school board in revising and formulating new policies and practices
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Duane,
Thanks for that response. I have often been asked the same question. It goes like this, “Well, if punitive practices don’t work, as you say, do you have a better alternative?” Or, something along those lines. We may be failing, but why change if you don’t have a better answer? I usually reply that you can’t do the right thing until you stop doing the wrong thing. If all these free-market approaches fail, if treating tests as a way to improve achievement fails, stop doing it. Then we can work together to find better ideas.
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I believe the word “accountability” has been used once too often by people who want someone else to do something. A teacher once suggested the test that were being given were worthless. The response by the superintendent? But how are we going to get “accountability “? The word is a dodge. Let us agree that it has become, perhaps always was, just a code word used by testing advocates in their sales jargon.
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Ok, I am playing catch up:
Duane – you asked about one concrete issue – teachers who let students pass onto to the higher grade without the right material. I didn’t say give grades (I partially agree with you about their lack of validity – however, I then ask you – how would you make sure students knew the material they were supposed to know?
As for asking for solutions – I never said that I could solve things on “such short notice” I have students coming to me talking about how unfair it is that a 9th grader was just given up on (they are student teachers in a HS setting). I understand and know the layers upon layers of changes that would have to occur. One student was so down about the situation it nearly made her not want to teach. I told her that to start she has to focus on what she can control – her lessons, her classroom, her students.
That being said, I disagree that asking for solutions has a lot of hubris. I don’t know the solution. What I do know is that NCLB stemmed from a place because of the large amount of inequality amongst education levels in states (I believe that is correct – right Dr. Ravitch). It came from a place to address inequality. It came from a place because in so many cities and so many states we “let teachers teach”:…
The problem I have, Duane, with your comments is that you enter it making huge assumptions. If we assume that every person entering the teaching profession has the same goal – to support children – well that’s a HUGE assumption (not to mention the number of those that are still teaching now)…
One person asked what I would offer as one concrete solution – here’s one. I would have the administrative unions and teacher unions work together so that teachers could have joint positions – teachers (dept chairs) could have the ability to observe, to offer feedback and support to teachers, etc. Right now in most places that is NOT the case. Where I taught a principal wanted to institute having teachers observe one another (even informally to learn from one another) and many teachers jumped out of their chair and noted that positions that are the same level CANNOT observe one another. Here is what I ask – what are they hiding? Why not let any person into their classroom? Where is the spirit of learning there?
In asking for solutions, I never said I have all of the answers, I certainly don’t. Neither does anyone here. But I thjink instead of writing poetry and slamming what has been done, that we should try and come up with other options that are reasonable…And candidly, Dr. Ravitch, I fear that if we wait until there is accountability for politicians, etc. that it may be too late for a large number of the children in school today.
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How are you planning on paying for that? Because, in my state, that would mean putting a lot more students in classes of the other members of the department, in order to free up several periods to observe. In my state, there’s NO WAY they would hire more teachers.
As Peter Greene says, if someone is stabbing you, and you tell them to stop, and their answer is, “Do you have a better plan?” SURE–stop stabbing me! And that’s what has to happen first.
Personally, I really liked site-based decision making. When it works, it’s beautiful, because the staff are actually involved, and not being dictated to from on high. I wish we could get site-based decision making back.
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But what happens when it doesn’t work??
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jlsteach,
A couple of responses. First to your last question “But what happens when it doesn’t work?” Exactly! You say that I am making assumptions, we all do no doubt and yours in this case is that what was going on in public education before NCLB was so egregious that we needed the massive edudeform and privateer agenda to correct it. Well your assumption is dead wrong for the majority of schools and teachers at the time. Were there a very small percentage of schools that needed major improvements? Yes! But would you “fail” all your student teachers if one happened to sexually molest a student? Absurd example, no, just extreme to drive home the point.
As far as the hubristic comment, that was meant to say that anyone who believes that one can effect any change by himself would be ego driven, hubristic and overflowing with gall. It was not directed at you for asking your question/making the comment. And it was meant to reiterate the hubris and gall that many adminimals have in demanding such things.
“I would have the administrative unions and teacher unions work together so that teachers could have joint positions – teachers (dept chairs) could have the ability to observe, to offer feedback and support to teachers, etc. ”
First, I know of no administrative “unions”. The NEA has both teacher and administrators as members. Is that what you would like to see? Second, it is not the job of the teachers to evaluate other teachers although some districts in the past have had department chairs be a step above the teachers and who have had the administrative task of evaluating teachers. As a former WL dept chair, I never had that capability but I did work with any department teacher who asked for or was determined to need help in what ever fashion was needed. I sat in on candidate interviews but did not make the final decision (which usually coincided with my recommendations because the administrators had no clue about teaching a second language). Again, though it is an administrative responsibility to do the hiring and firing if needed (obviously with the proper procedures followed in trying to get the teacher up to snuff).
And:
“I fear that if we wait until there is accountability for politicians, etc. that it may be too late for a large number of the children in school today.”
Well, what about all the completely invalid testing, the dominance of that testing over curriculum, the narrowing of the curriculum, and many other edudeformer and privateer favorite practices? Should we wait until the “pendulum swings the other way”? HELL NO! At this point in time the only option is for the teachers themselves to take it upon themselves and practice civil disobedience to prevent any more harm to students, as way too much harm has already been done! I’m not holding my breath as most value personal expediency over justice and what is right by the students. I’ll leave you with this thought:
“Should we therefore forgo our self-interest? Of course not. But it [self-interest] must be subordinate to justice, not the other way around. . . . To take advantage of a child’s naivete. . . in order to extract from them something [test scores, personal information] that is contrary to their interests, or intentions, without their knowledge [or consent of parents] or through coercion [state mandated testing], is always and everywhere unjust even if in some places and under certain circumstances it is not illegal. . . . Justice is superior to and more valuable than well-being or efficiency; it cannot be sacrificed to them, not even for the happiness of the greatest number [quoting Rawls]. To what could justice legitimately be sacrificed, since without justice there would be no legitimacy or illegitimacy? And in the name of what, since without justice even humanity, happiness and love could have no absolute value?. . . Without justice, values would be nothing more than (self) interests or motives; they would cease to be values or would become values without worth.”—Comte-Sponville [my additions]
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Duane
Do you think it’s acceptable that kids in one state have different standards for graduating than in other states? That such things led to inequality?? (I’m not even talking about segregation)?? Because that was why NCLB came to be…
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Yes I do think it is acceptable. The push for “standardization” is mind boggling to me. How the hell did this country manage to become the supposed top dog country in the world before these attempts at standardized education. I used to call them the “Sovietization” of public education but far too many don’t understand what I mean by that. (Lest that imply that I am a regressive right, I used to get Soviet Life back in the mid 70s just to learn about what was happening behind the Iron Curtain-never meant getting it as a political statement just a means of learning, albeit a very biased one.) Now I use the term McDonaldization of education and most understand. They understand one doesn’t get gourmet meals at McDonalds (and hey I like a Big Mac every now and again so it’s not meant as a cut at McDs, as they have figured out a way to make tons of money through standardization) But making money is not the goal of public education and to expect a gourmet education through standardization is, well, let’s just say I’ve got some great white sand ocean beach front property over at Lake of the Ozarks in Central Missouri for sale cheaply.
And no, those different graduation requirements and curriculum (they weren’t called standards then-that is one of the many misnomers now in place-purposely, I believe-to further the edudeformers and privateers agenda) did not lead to “inequality” what ever you mean by that phrase. What are you trying to say by “led to inequality”?
And I’m not sure that “inequality” was why NCLB came to be. I think that there are many reasons that NCLB came into being with perhaps “inequality” (again whatever that means, I don’t know) being a side show at best. Where did you find that this “inequality” is why NCLB came into being?
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Well Duane that’s the difference between you and me. I don’t think it’s acceptable that a kid in Mississippi and a kid in Massachusetts could both be HS graduates but have different requirements. And that because of that if both the kid from Mississippi and the kid from Massachusettes end up at the same college the kid from Mississippi is automatically behind. That’s inequality. The same inequality that many here discuss saying poor kids are more disadvantaged than rich kids (note it’s not exactly the same but it’s similar in the sense that your education plays a role in your success…
Also something that folks who went to school in the 1960s, 1970s…if venture to guess that in today’s schools there are more kids in K-12 education than in the 1960s…
It’s not one size fits all…its here’s the minimum threshold for all…so that all have equal chances to succeed
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Again, how did this country survive and thrive without all this supposed (and I say supposed on purpose) standardization.
The fundamental purpose and concerns of K-12 public education are not the same as the concerns of post secondary institutions. K-12 public education is not there to be a training institution for higher ed. Do you know what the fundamental purpose of k-12 public education is and how does that interact with the purpose of state government? (hint, if you’d like to know email me at dswacker@centurytel.net) and I’ll email you a copy of my discussion of those things in Ch 1 of my upcoming book-it’s a bit too long to post here although in one thread yesterday I posted some of it in response to what Diane wrote about the purpose of public education with which I partially agree but majorly disagree.
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Minimum thresholds have a tendency to morph into very low thresholds. See Outcome Based Education of the last century or of the various state standards of curriculum requirements for graduation that seemed to morph down into minimums needed to graduate. These things have been tried and have failed before. Why do it again (see Competency/Proficiency Based Education)?
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Also In terms of unions look up ASFA or council of school officers…
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Okay, so the CSO is a very localized organization that bargains for administrators in Washington DC. It appears to be an anomaly.
And The American Schools Foundation Alliance or “ASFA” is a not-for-profit organization with a mission to build a nationwide community of school and education foundations, and to serve those foundations by providing essential and timely information through resources, tools and guidance to advance public education in the United States.
That certainly does not sound like a “union” to me. I could not find anything about its funding without having to pay a fee. Do you know who its funders are?
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Duane – a few thoughts:
1. While the USA may be “thriving and surviving”: as you say during those periods – my question to you is WHO was really thriving? Not every single person, that I can assure you. Kids who didn’t have the same opportunities as others (see my Mississippi vs. Massachusetts analogy earlier on) certainly didn’t thrive as well as others.
2. I never said that we should use CBE as a tool…where one simply checks the box. There is a huge difference between saying “Yes, you did something, check” and “you have met these minimum expectations – it’s also how one is assessed on these items.
3. Honestly I’ve never been administrator, so I am not as familiar with administrator unions. But you said there weren’t any and I found one. could be more, Could be fewer. I once taught in DC, and that was a reason I heard for why a teacher/admin hybrid wasn’t possible. However, I find it interesting that in most public schools that I know you are either a teacher or an administrator. That leads to two things: 1) those that are the best teachers are taken out of the classrooms to become administrators, 2) those that are the top teachers end up in central office or other policy making decisions. It’s been well documented that teachers often feel that they want/need more opportunities for leadership – imagine if those could happen within their building.
4. clearly the purpose of K-12 education has evolved over the course of the last two centuries – think about who has access to education now that didn’t have it in the 1800s or the 1900s…
5. There is a difference between common threshold and standardization. Do I think that every school in the US should be on the same place at the same time doing the same thing? No. But do I think having common expectations for all schools would be a good thing? Yes…because without them teachers tend to do their own thing (see the example I already mentioned about the teacher who gave kids all B’s for no work)
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