In an article in The Nation, George Joseph notes a curious phenomenon: the reports of violent and disruptive behavior are increasing at double the rate in charter schools in New York City, as compared to public schools.
The irony is that this is happening at the same time that the billionaire-backed Families for Excellent Schools has unleashed a social media campaign aimed at discrediting Mayor Bill de Blasio’s efforts to reduce harsh discipline in the public schools. Joseph’s article includes several tweets from FES, calling attention to disorder in the public schools. He surmises that FES–a major backer of Eva Moskowitz’s Success Academy charter chain–is trying to divert attention from the embarrassing video of a SA teacher humiliating a child.
Joseph interviews a retired professional who observed both types of schools in a building co-located with a charter:
Brenda Shufelt, a recently retired librarian who served public school and Success Academy Charter School students at a colocated school library in Harlem, said that as charter schools rapidly expand, they may be taking in more high-needs kids, many of whom cannot conform to one-size-fits-all disciplinary approaches.
“In my experience, what would often happen is that charter school students would be so rigidly controlled that the kids would periodically blow up,” says Shufelt. “At PS 30, some of our kids would have meltdowns, usually because of problems at home, but I never saw kids melt down in the way they did in charter schools. They were just so despairing, feeling like they could not do this. I was told by two custodians, they had never had so much vomit to clean up from kindergarten and elementary classes.”

Anyone who has worked with, rather than controlled, children will not be surprised at this. You can only push a child so far before their primitve brain takes over and the fight or flight reaction is triggered. Denying children the right and ability to be children can only lead to more and more rebellion. Cruel idiots who are far too enamored of their own ideologies and control will sow the tempest and reap the whirlwind in these scharter prisons.
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Chris,
You may be coming from an elementary school perspective and that may account for our different perspectives. I teach middle school –notorious across the country for being the most rambunctious and cruel age. Let’s stop demonizing the adults and angel-zing the kids. I’m not defending the no-excuses practices as I don’t know them intimately. But it does a real disservice to middle school teachers and administrators to suggest that stopping uncivil behaviors is as simple as “working with” children rather than trying to “control” them. Not every teacher who administers consequences for misbehavior is a “cruel idiot”. It’s a popular but false idea that all misbehavior stems from abusive parenting or deprivation at home or insensitive teachers or failure to “let kids be kids”. Yes, SOME misbehaviors stem from such causes. But definitely not all. Humans are not angels. There is perversity in many, if not all, humans’ souls. Kids often exhibit gratuitous and self-generated malice (cf. Lord of the Flies). They can terrorize classmates and teachers when they feel they have the power, just for the heck of it. Sometimes a positive relationship with these kids is not an option, especially if a peer-group is reinforcing the malicious behavior, as it often does. I have seen kids wickedly demean teachers and peers, and wantonly disrupt class, for sheer sport. Adults try, in vain, to activate their consciences (if present at all; 1-2% of kids are hard-wired sociopaths –science shows it’s an organic brain disorder). In many of these cases, I have seen kids suddenly perk up and start behaving if a significant enough consequence were threatened (e.g. getting kicked off a sports team). Unfortunately regular public schools have fewer and fewer such levers at their disposal. Summer school is out. Retention is out. And now suspension and expulsion are increasingly out. Schools have little power and the kids know it. We would like all kids to be like our own sweet kids, nephews, etc. But they’re not. And we would like to believe that a civil order without threats of punishment were possible, but in most schools and societies, it’s not. Sadly some kids –just like some adults –only respect a certain kind of raw, hard power. Adults should try not to resort to this –it is unsavory and often unnecessary —-but if push comes to shove, we need to be able to employ it on the most harmful students (yes, students can and do cause real harm). Let us look at classroom management with honesty, not through romantic spectacles.
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Scharter prisons. Oh, how have we gotten to this point.
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Ponderosa, I understand that your position is difficult. I taught in inner city elementary schools in the South Bronx. Now I teach in a 98% free and reduced lunch school with 73% ELL migrant children and high poverty children of color. I learned to work with them and yes, there were problems. Just last year I placed 3 children in residential treatment programs, had 3 children with multiple violent episodes where they trashed the classroom and injured adults and other children, and I had a 6 year old child stab another in the neck with a sharp pencil for laughing at him so I don’t believe I can be dismissed as ‘just being in elementary.’
What troubles me is teachers who are always calling for a change in the children but never show any indication that maybe they need to change also. Maybe, just maybe some of the things they do, the way the teach, and the way they interact provokes and exacerbates the behaviors that they dislike. I see it frequently and have for years. It comes from privilege and cultural ineptitude and ignorance.
I met with a retired principal from South Los Angeles last week. He took a high school from failure with constant behavior issues, rampant drug use, fights and frequent arrests, and gang violence to a top achiever in the top 10 in California in 3 years. The school has maintained the achievement for years since he retired. How did he do it? By working not only with the children but also with their parents, members of the community, and other stakeholders.
We can’t teach the children we wish we had or think we should have. We have to teach the children who come into our classrooms every day and that means that we must adapt ourselves to their needs and learn to understand their culture. It is not easy but it is possible for those who are willing to learn, change, grow, and adapt. I know because I have spent over 20 years doing just those things.
I wish you well and do not mean to question your struggles or your integrity but I also will not be dismissed for being elementary either.
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“Maybe, just maybe some of the things they do, the way the teach, and the way they interact provokes and exacerbates the behaviors that they dislike. I see it frequently and have for years. It comes from privilege and cultural ineptitude and ignorance.”
I am white and the most egregious behavior problems I have this year stem from a handful of white, middle-class kids. I teach 200 kids each day; of these, only five are chronic misbehavers, but these five too frequently dominate my consciousness. (By the way, they’re a bane to almost all their teachers). One might leap to the conclusion that I’m inept at psychological finesse and other “soft” techniques for managing a class, but I do manage 195 of my students pretty successfully. There was a sixth difficult, insolent and manipulative (white) kid, but his behaviors have finally been checked now that his parents realize he’s been lying to them and they’re now taking the teachers’ side.
I tend to think the teacher-blaming in your quote, which seems to be the orthodoxy in education schools, is usually misguided and often amounts to blaming the victim and throwing our decent and hard-working comrades under the bus. Liberals especially want to angel-ize kids, especially minority kids, and they seem happy to throw teachers under the bus if it helps them preserve their sanctified view of kids, even if it means unjustly painting thoroughly decent adults as malefactors. Let me give one thought experiment that may help to disrupt this conventional and wrong-headed thinking: imagine a black (or atheist, Muslim or gay) teacher in a mostly white, lower-income, conservative community. Imagine the kids misbehaving –maybe even self-righteously demeaning and subverting this “bad” (because of who they are) teacher. Would you tell this teacher to examine their “privilege” or “cultural ineptitude”? The kids may have cultural reasons for what they’re doing, but that doesn’t mean they should be able to do it with impunity. The fact that whites have done heinous things to blacks does not mean we should condone some black kids’ mistreatment of white teachers. I think the history of racial injustice in America colors some liberals’ view of discipline in these situations, but while it may give them some emotional satisfaction to see whites suffering at the hands of blacks, this reflects a warped understanding of justice.
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Chris,
I don’t mean to impute all of the “liberal” attitudes I mentioned to you. I was speaking generally. And I don’t mean to discount your observation that your colleagues are guilty of “cultural ineptitude and ignorance”. I do wonder though whether you think that is a major factor in their students’ misbehavior.
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Yes, I own all of those “liberal” bugaboos you fear and loathe and I do so proudly. You only have 5 misbehaving kids? Lucky you. I willinglye take all on my grade level every year and I make a difference. They come back to me and tell me so.
I am metoring a third year teacher who actually said to me, that “these kind of kids can’t learn”. That teacher was right because that teacher wants kids who come to school already educated where that can just place woksheets bought online in front of the kids and have them teach themselves. I am tutoring 5 other teachers with similar issues.
It seems conservatives will do anything but admit that we are all in this together and that sometimes subverting your own needs and desires in service on others is a noble and important calling. Easier to just trash liberlas, deny privilege exists, and lament the passing of the good old days that Trump is teying to bring back.
Ugh. And nice how you ignored my concrete examples and life experiences and dismissed it all as concventional ed school wisdom. Really?
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Chris,
I have no doubt you are a great teacher. And I do think there is value in being culturally sensitive. And I know that elementary teachers do face big behavior challenges too. And I identify as a liberal in most regards.
However I do think there is an orthodoxy on discipline –evident on this blog and the education world in general –that has its merits and its flaws. I want to point out some of those flaws. To give one example: we’re not even allowed to use the word “punishment”. We must say “consequences”. Not only that, it seems almost taboo to frankly suggest that “consequences” are even very effective. In fact, it seems to me, while not 100% so, they are one of the more effective methods humans have discovered for stopping bad behavior. That’s why all societies from the beginning of time have employed punishments to deter crime. Yet I’ve had a VP tell me bluntly: “Consequences don’t work.” That’s what she learned in education school.
Another bit of the orthodoxy: black kids misbehave for white teachers because of white teachers’ “cultural insensitivity”. No, for the most part black kids misbehave for the same reasons white kids misbehave: wanting to show off for friends, wanting to cover up academic inadequacies, preferring to socialize than do academic work, etc. Framing the issue as racial grants a legitimacy to what is essentially illegitimate behavior. This the last thing teenagers need: a cosmic justification for following their druthers! I bet most black kids –at least those who have not been indoctrinated in the PC catechism –would tell you as much. And even if there is a degree of cultural insensitivity in a well-intentioned teacher does that justify kids’ disrupting class or behaving rudely toward her? I don’t think so. I think this is one area where the reformers’ talk of the “soft bigotry of low expectations” holds some truth.
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When five kids take up endless amounts of time and energy from teachers and administrators it is time to find them an alternative placement. They forfeit their right to a standard public education based on severely chronic misbehaviors that disrupt the education of the vast majority (195) of the students.
Chris there is a fundamental difference between the types of misbehaviors at the elementary level compared to early adolescents. There is also a huge difference when a teacher has to manage 100 to 200 students per day. The sheer number of interactions with that many personalities makes classroom management much more challenging. When X% of students start to manifest signs mental illness in early adolescence, that fact alone alters the picture for the teacher with enrollments that run in the hundreds.
However, in a strange way I agree with both of you. As teachers we are forever searching for that sweet-spot that lies between being to hard or too easy – academically and through classroom management.
Ponderosa, is there a reason that these five students do not get suspended?
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Rage,
In our district, and I suspect most others, there is a strong stigma to suspending and expelling students, regardless of how egregious misbehaviors may be, or how beneficial doing so might be to the school climate. The best principal we ever had was fired in part because the school board deemed his rate of suspensions and expulsions too high. That message has been heard loud and clear by his successors. The zeitgeist is against suspensions. We can’t even use the word “suspension” anymore. We have in-school-suspension, but our principal felt the need to give it some euphemism because the word “suspension” is now taboo too. The chronic misbehavers I mentioned are finally starting to get occasional in-school suspensions. When they’re out of the class, it’s amazing how much happier and more productive the rest of us are.
American schools are now victims of yet one more invidious standard, one more ill-conceived “best practice”, one more brick in the the orthodoxy: reduce suspensions.
“Everyone” agrees that good schools and good principals do not suspend or expel. Ergo few principals will do so. The result is deteriorating teaching and learning conditions in public schools that fosters an exodus of exasperated parents and students to charter and private schools.
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WELL SAID!
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Except in extremely rare instances, the ONLY kinds of suspensions — especially for kids who aren’t yet teens — should be in-school.
In fact, if suspension is supposed to be a punishment, it is a much worse punishment to sit in a room alone all day than to get to stay home. Those kinds of suspensions are simply means to rid yourself of those kids.
I think principals who won’t allow teachers to discipline unruly children with in-school suspensions should be fired. But that is a disciplinary measure every school should be able to use.
Furthermore, if there are multiple in-school suspensions, then a caring professional needs to look closely at what is going on. Maybe it is just that another teacher makes the difference. Or maybe that child needs a small class environment. Maybe the student’s problem is a means to hide their academic difficulties, and a few weeks or months of intensive tutoring gives them the self-esteem they needed.
But as long as we give schools an out by allowing them to simply send the difficult kids home we will never improve schools. They should be sent out of the classroom, but then their needs should be addressed in other classrooms (which does cost money, but would be worth it.)
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Ponerosa
NY mandates that out of school suspensions “at the secondary school level, each such pupil shall receive at least 10 hours of instruction per week. To the extent possible, at least two hours of instruction shall be provided each day.”
One of the best disciplinary options that our middle school has implemented is the SOS (Student Off Schedule) room that allows to send a student out just for the period. A great way to provide a separate location for an unruly and uncooperative student. The rooms a staffed with teachers – in lieu of a study hall supervision. Works great! I suggest you give this a try if you have a principal who listens.
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It may also be that the staff that is needed to ensure a positive learning environment is missing. Charter operators have been known to cut out “extra” staff to maintain their all-important bottom line. And the “volunteers” or parents who have mandatory volunteer hours also have mandatory bills to pay, or other commitments they have to spend time on. Recruiting “mentors” or volunteers to fill in for staff only works so long, like at this charter -.http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-ci-renaissance-plan-20160304-story.html
Less support for kids means more cash for the privatizers to push their business model.
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Wow.
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The statistics used in the linked article are completely useless without some measure of actual incidence of violence. You cannot compare a 54% increase with a 27% increase. It needs the violent incidents per 100 kids per year figure. The article is otherwise just bad journalism.
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Incorrect statement. While it would be useful to put into context the overall numbers for comparison, the rate or incidence is a valid comparison between the school districts.
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Maybe the article is bad journalism but the fact that their is violence in charters and the extent of it will never be fully known since there is no accountability in these schools. To believe that switching kids to charters automatically takes care of discipline problems is silly.
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With all due respect:
Rates by themselves, and numbers by themselves, are incomplete, one without the other.
For example, it’s nice if my hourly wage goes up from $7.50@hour to $15@hour for a forty-hour week. Without vacations or time off or sick time and so on, $600@week for 52 weeks comes to $31,200@year (and don’t forget taxes and other deductions). A very welcome increase indeed, but my 100% increase sounds a whole lot less impressive than the “paltry” 20% increase of the CEO: s/he was making $5,000,000@year and now makes $6,000,000@year (not to mention all sorts of other goodies).
I doubled my yearly income, getting $15,600 more, but s/he gets $1,000,000 more.
You can put a lot of spin on either figure depending on whether you use rates or numbers by themselves. Not to mention other contextual info.
Just sayin’…
😎
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This is the Karl Rove strategy of “turning opponents’ strengths against them.”
BACKGROUND: in the 2004 election, when it came to their respective war records, Kerry had a huge edge on Bush:
Kerry was a veteran who fought in harm’s way, was under fire, won multiple decorations.
Bush’s daddy got him placed in the Air National Guard as a way to keep W. OUT of harm’s way. If that wasn’t bad enough, Bush went AWOL (Absent WithOut Leave) for months at a time, as he was embroiled in one of his periods of alcholism.
Not a close call.
Well, Karl Rove’s strategy was counter-intuitive. Instead of avoiding or conceding that Kerry had this advantage, he decided to destroy that advantage through employing paid liars to claim Kerry was a horrible soldier. Behind the scenes, he organized a fake group that claimed to serve with Kerry — the infamous “Swift Boat” veterans — tell lief after lie after lie … to achieve this end.
Sadly, it worked, and W. was re-elected.
Here’s something about this:
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/brent-baker/2007/08/14/abc-blames-karl-rove-swift-boat-ads-all-nets-scold-him-plame-leak
“David Wright cited Rove’s ‘political ju-jitzu’ in ‘turning opponents’ strengths against them.’ With a Swift Boat ad clip on screen, Wright described a “sustained attack on John Kerry’s war record, an audacious move considering Bush’s Vietnam War record was weak.”
—–
That’s basically what’s happened here. Eva and her allies at Families for Excellent Schools are “swift boating” the public schools.
The public schools seemingly have the advantage here. They don’t have screaming banshis like Charlotte Dial abusing 5-year-olds like Eva’s Success Academy chain has and… if you believe insider Jessica Reid-Sliwerstki… were systematic and widespread, not an “anomaly” as Eva claims.
Not so fast, says Eva’s propaganda leviathan… those schools are actually WORSE when it comes to violent incidents, and an unsafe school culture.
Hence, Families for Excellence Schools unleashes a multi-million dollar campaign to that effect … press conferences, social media, article at friendly news org’s…
And voila, it’s the “Swift Boating” of John Kerry all over again. It’s the public schools that have an unsafe, violent culture, not the charter schools.
Thankfully, George Joseph at THE NATION pulls out the real numbers, and accounts to refute this.
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The last statement about the sheer amount of students getting physically sick and vomiting hits home. I also worked at a co-located school (with Harlem Success) and the custodians were overwhelmed with the daily calls (sometimes multiple)to clean up vomit from the HSA students. Our kids rarely had a problem- unless they were sick. The HSA kids-poor babies- were simply stressed out. HSA claimed that it was natural. Why is it not happening at regular public schools then? Seriously that easily tantamount a to child abuse!!! Something must be done to protect these children!
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Maybe they need some help from a virtual class:
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Re: the video. That’s good advice for handling many kids, but not all. I’d really like to see how PACE recommends breaking up a violent gang initiation outside your classroom while the nearest administrator is at the other end of campus. Or what to do if being a teacher with good people skills isn’t enough, and someone threatens you and shoots in front of your house. Seriously.
These things don’t happen every day but when they do, you wish for the good old days of just getting somebody to put away their cell phone.
Administrators often have lots of shame around these issues and so won’t meet them head on. I’d like to see all schools address and train for potential emergencies, as well as offer teachers support for dealing with them. We also need a different breed of administrator, not just a business manager, but one with teaching and behavioral training.
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