Jimmy Qin, a junior at Seminole High School in Sanford, Florida, received a perfect score on the AP Physics examination. He was one of only two students to earn a perfect score. Nearly 23,000 students took the test.
Seminole is not a magnet school or a charter school. It is a regular public school.
Jimmy is in the International Baccalaureate program at Seminole.
Beyond physics, Jimmy’s interests include politics and economics. His favorite magazines are “The New Yorker”and “The Economist,” while his favorite newspaper is “The New York Times.”
Jimmy also plays the piano and cello. He’s a member of the Florida Young Artists Orchestra, where he is the principal cellist and has performed as a soloist four times.
If it were up to the “reformers” in Florida’s legislature, Seminole High School would not exist anymore. It would have been given away to for-profit charter entrepreneurs and turned into a lucrative real estate deal.
Diane Ravitch's blog 
One thing about these students getting perfect scores — they are obviously geniuses in the subject or as near to that as possible and could very likely have attended any school and excelled. I suspect that he already understands physics in a way that his teachers don’t — and I don’t mean that to bash the teachers at all. What students who are this gifted are learning is rarely from their classroom — they generally love the subject and are thinking and reading about it for pleasure the way that other students might have fun on social media or watching a movie.
The problem is that most students — 99.99% of them — are not going to be like this. They do need good, experienced teachers with smaller classes when they struggle. There may very well be a student like Jimmy who is getting perfect AP scores in a charter or private school but it won’t be because of some special sauce they offer.
We all know what works, but the people who support charter schools pretend that it can be done in large class sizes with inexperienced teachers and spending very little money. The problems in public education aren’t educating students like Jimmy — they are educating the 50% + children living in poverty who are struggling to learn. My guess is that Jimmy’s AP Calc teacher would have a hard time teaching a classroom of 30 of those 6 year olds.
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Beyond physics, Jimmy’s interests include politics and economics. His favorite magazines are “The New Yorker”and “The Economist,” while his favorite newspaper is “The New York Times.”
I hope to God he takes physics in college before economics or his scientific thinking may be ruined for life.
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“before economics OR political science [sic]
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Right on, SomeDAm Poet! Agree.
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Three items…You say that Seminole is a regular public school, and yet then say that the student was in the international baccalaureate program…That right there means that the school is NOT just a regular public school. Many times schools with an IB program are magnet schools (or IB programs are placed in schools to make them more attractive to parents across a county or area)…
Second, I think that it’s a bit of an exaggeration to say that all reforms in Florida would completely wipe out schools like Seminole. I also wonder why if celebrating such single success (perfect scores on a AP exam) is a little bit ironic…you are celebrating those that are doing well…ON a STANDARDIZED TEST…What does that say? On Shark Tank last night, a person was advocating for a testing company called 2400 (perfect SAT Score). That investor stated that he wasn’t a genius, but rather found a way to master the test – so it can be done.
Finally, so often on this blog one example of something that is not great (i.e a poor teacher, etc) are dismissed as single examples…And yet single examples like this are praised as proof the system CAN work? Is this really fair?
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Jlsteach, many regular public schools have IB programs. Carol Burris’s school in Rockville Center, Long Island, served the community as its neighborhood high school and it has an IB program. I have heard of many others in regular public schools. Regular public high schools offer a variety of programs–there are usually many electives and programs that students may choose from. Small high schools–whether charter or public–can’t offer the same choices.
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Hurray for Jimmy.
But, he is enrolled in a magnet IB program at his school and he did have to apply to get in. The school’s website says repeatedly that the program is “demanding” and “rigorous” and it’s designed for “highly motivated” and “college bound” students who seek academic “challenges.”
What’s more interesting, however, is that the mission of Jimmy’s schools it prepare students so that they can “begin a career and continue their education at a post secondary technical school, community college or university.”
Sound familiar? The purpose of public education in a democratic republic is to prepare kids for college and work. Isn’t that – essentially – the Common Core?
So, here’s a question.
Why is Jimmy, enrolled in a magnet IB program, taking Advanced Placement (AP) tests?
By the way, who produces the AP program? Yep, the College Board, which also had a major hand in creating the Common Core and has aligned all of its programs and products (like the SAT) to it.
SAT testing for juniors takes place at Jimmy’s school on Thursday, March 3. According to the school’s website, ” This is a full SAT test that will take place during the day. Scores may be sent to colleges.”
AP testing will take place between May 2 and May 13. In fact, during March, April, and May, there’s an awful lot of testing going on at Jimmy’s school.
Click to access 15-16%202nd%20sem%20testing%20calendar.pdf
This is what we now celebrate?
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”Why is Jimmy, enrolled in a magnet IB program, taking Advanced Placement (AP) tests?”
He challenges himself. He either self-studied or had a tutor.
Allen Liu. a high school senior, took AP Physics B in 5th grade. He latter taught himself AP Physics C and studied graduate level math at the University of Rochester. Allen earned gold medals at the 2014 and 2015 International Mathematical Olympiad. He is a member of the 2015 US Physics team.
David Banh took AP courses and self-studied. He passed enough exams that he graduated from the University of Virginia in one year with a double major in physics and math.
https://www.aapt.org/physicsteam/2015/team.cfm?id=942&year=2015
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/19/AR2006091901779.html
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I’m unclear as to what point Triumph is trying to make.
I asked this question: If Jimmy is in an IB magnet program, which has its own set of exams, then why is he taking AP tests?
Triumph’s answer is that he “self-studies” and “challenges” himself? Really? He has to take an AP test to do that? Perhaps it has to do with college. Which raises the question, then why the IB program?
Here’s another question. Why does a school with an IB program offer a full in-school day for the SAT test?
And why does Jimmy’s school spend so much time on testing?
I said before, and I’ll be more than happy to recite the research on it, one cannot be opposed to the Common Core but in favor of AP and SAT (and ACT) testing.
So why the celebration about Jimmy’s score on an AP test?
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Jimmy Qin’s high school has nothing to do with his success in physics. His culture is the reason. He is ethnic Chinese and his parents sought out additional educational experiences beyond the classroom. Most of the top high school physics students in the US are Asian males and attend open enrollment public high schools. Nearly all have parents who work in the STEM field.
Jimmy Qin won medals at the US Physics Olympiad in 2014, and 2015. Only three students from Stuyvesant were invited to the 2015 US Physics Olympiad, none from Bronx Science nor Brooklyn Tech. Conversely two regular Silicon Valley high schools received 17 invitations each. So out of 10,000 students from NY’s Big 3 selective high schools only 3 invitations and 34 invitations to the two California high schools with a combined enrollment of 4500. All five schools are over 60 percent Asian but the Silicon Valley kids have more money and their parents are highly educated STEM professionals.
https://www.aapt.org/physicsteam/2015/thisfileisnotforyou.cfm
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His culture gets the credit? So why aren’t all Chinese kids acing their AP tests?
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Good for Jimmy.
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Democracy beat me to the punch about the Seminole HS IB program being a magnet program. However, I am unsure why you are negative about the IB program. As an IB graduate myself I can attest that it is the most rigorous preparation that a HS student can have. It improved my critical thinking skills. I attended a Top-10 (US News) university as an UG and was better prepared than many of my classmates because of IB.
I’m unclear about the comment about why is Jimmy taking AP tests while in the IB program. While I believe that IB is superior as an overall program, most colleges recognize AP more than IB in terms of College credit. And yes, the May of my senior year was filled with many exams (some days were IB English in the AM and AP Physics in the PM). Again. this rigor easily prepared me for college. And I think that having an assessment that could provide students college credit (AND thus, save them money in college) is valuable…As for having all students take the SAT during the school day – this also saves students the costs of paying for the SAT (districts or schools pick up the cost) and are part of college readiness.
Now, one can argue that things like the SAT or AP shouldn’t happen at all – that’s your choice. But I think that there is merit to what the school is trying to do.
Dr. Ravitch – as you can see here, Seminole is a magnet school. Yes, the IB program is used at some “regular public schools” – I don’t have the statistics, but I would venture to guess that in most of them are magnet schools…
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Look at the Seminole website. Look at the list of faculty. It is a large comprehensive high school. Jimmy is in an IB program in a comprehensive school
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No matter what schools students like these attend, the point should be made that they were committed to making the most of their opportunities. In addition, their parents were educated and valued education and expected their children to excel. I’m sure they had fine teachers and excellent instructional programs, but one of the key things here has to be the out of school factors we all recognize are so important. These students are examples of how important all those background factors are to top performance.
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I wonder how he prepared for this brand new exam / what materials were used. At my niece’s school most of the AP physics 1 class failed the exam (2s and 3s were majority). The teacher told me that college board only posted one practice exam for the new format that they started and everyone tried their best and worked hard and they were disappointed.
This year only few kids ventured to take the class in the school. The discussion at the college confidential website states that many students had the same experience with AP Physics 1 exam last year.
I wonder about the magic behind the “perfect” result. May be he could share…
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I just saw in the source article that the exam Jimmy took was the old format AP physics C exam, not the new format AP physics 1 and 2 exam(that replaced the old AP physics B exam), so this is the reason for the “magic”.
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That is completely wrong.
AP Physics 1 & 2 are algebra-based courses that stretch over two years instead one year like AP Physics B. AP Physics 1 doesn’t require any previous physics background, hence the high failure rate. It is a watered-down survey course.
Jimmy took the rigorous AP Physics C which is calculus-based. He has won medals at the US Physics Olympiad. He is one of the top physics students in the United States. He wouldn’t take a baby exam like AP Physics 1.
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I suppose it’s nice that this kid got a perfect score on the Advanced Placement test.
Celebrating that score seems to imply that AP is “really good.” As some researcher on AP notes, “The College Board’s Advanced Placement (AP) program is considered by many to be the gold standard for a topnotch high school education.”
But guess what? It isn’t.
Research has shown that in Advanced Placement courses “the focus is on delivering information, perhaps even more than is found in an introductory course” at college. That same research found that instruction in most AP classes was “inconsistent with the results of the research on cognition and learning.” The report said that AP courses and tests were often a mile wide and an inch deep.
A 2004 study found that “the best predictor of both first- and second-year college grades” is unweighted high school grade point average, and a high school grade point average “weighted with a full bonus point for AP…is invariably the worst predictor of college performance.”
But high schools award bonus points, and that’s why many students take AP classes, to pad their transcripts.
A 2005 study found that AP students are “…generally no more likely than non-AP students to return to school for a second year or to have higher first semester grades.” Moreover, the study authors concluded that “close inspection of the [College Board] studies cited reveals that the existing evidence regarding the benefits of AP experience is questionable,” and “AP courses are not a necessary component of a rigorous curriculum.”
A 2006 MIT faculty report noted ““there is ‘a growing body of research’ that students who earn top AP scores and place out of institute introductory courses end up having ‘difficulty’ when taking the next course.” Two years earlier, Harvard “conducted a study that found students who are allowed to skip introductory courses because they have passed a supposedly equivalent AP course do worse in subsequent courses than students who took the introductory courses at Harvard.” A Dartmouth study found that high scores on AP psychology tests do NOT translate into college readiness for the next-level course.
Students readily admit why AP is important to them: “You’re not trying to get educated; you’re trying to look good;” and, “The focus is on the test and not necessarily on the fundamental knowledge of the material.” Students know that AP is far more about gaming the college acceptance process than it is learning.
Even more perversely, the College Board –– which also produces the PSAT and SAT and had a major role in creating the Common Core, and says all of its products are “aligned” with the Common Core –– now recommends that schools “implement grade-weighting policies…starting as early as the sixth grade.” Yes, that’s right. The SIXTH grade! Is this a stupid idea? Absolutely.
A 2009 research study found “students who took and passed an A.P. science exam did about one-third of a letter grade better than their classmates with similar backgrounds who did not take an A.P. course.”
The 2010 book, AP: A Critical Examination noted that “Students see AP courses on their transcripts as the ticket ensuring entry into the college of their choice…there is a shortage of evidence about the efficacy, cost, and value of these programs.”
More recently (2013), research concludes that ” the impact of the AP program on various measures of college success was found to be negligible,”
And yet, hundreds of millions of dollars taxpayer dollars are being used to fund AP programs and tests – and it’s precisely because of misinformation and misperceptions. This is rational education policy?
As I’ve mentioned before, educators and citizens cannot be against the Common Core but in favor of College Board products like the SAT and Advanced Placement. They are part-and-parcel of the very same thing.
And they are not what we should be “celebrating.”
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“As I’ve mentioned before, educators and citizens cannot be against the Common Core but in favor of College Board products like the SAT and Advanced Placement. They are part-and-parcel of the very same thing.”
As far as I can see, it is not the Common Core, but the Common Core TESTS that received the backlash from educators. When the Common Core curriculum was first introduced, there was not widespread anger. When the terribly designed tests that were (intentionally?) written to create widespread failure were given to students, that’s when you heard the concern. Those tests purported to align with the common core curriculum as their excuse for being so incomprehensible. The truth was that politics was involved and those tests wanted to show that US students were failing.
democracy, AP Exams and the SATs, whatever you think of their value, have not yet become political. Do you know why?
Because ALL students — including the students in private schools — take those exams. You can’t do to the SAT what the politicians did to the state tests which every private school student automatically is exempt from taking but every public school child is FORCED to take (until opt out). The common core exams were designed to prove to parents — especially middle class ones — that their public schools were failing their kids and they should support charters and vouchers and getting rid of teachers unions.
Guess what happened with the SAT that private school kids take? It was made EASIER! And the AP exams? Guess who led the charge saying they were worthless? The private school administrators where those tests were given great weight until suddenly public school students started taking the SAME exam en masse and often out-performing many private school students. And I see a huge flaw in that study that purports to show how useless AP exams are. Because the students who test out of introductory courses are taking higher level courses that most college students never get to. So the comparison groups — comparing a college freshman taking his only course in subject and making it a more difficult one versus a sophomore taking their 2nd level course in a subject that he wants to pursue – is not very useful.
I know that all standardized tests have questionable value. But we have always known that. It is only now that CERTAIN standardized tests — the common core ones — have POLITICAL value. Right now, the SAT and AP exams have not yet become political. As soon as the private schools completely opt out and their favorite Ivy League colleges allow them to opt out, then the SATs and APs will go the way of the common core and become political tests, not educational ones.
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AP courses have become political. They are a measure of how rigorous a program a high school provides. Schools advertise how many AP classes they offer.
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Schools may “advertise” how many AP classes they offer, but when was the last time you saw a ranking of how each school’s students did on the AP exam? And whether it was a 3 or a 5?
There are no rankings with comparisons of AP exam scores of students – at least none that are used politically. And it would be easy to manipulate because you could just start doing what some of the private schools do and only your very top students in the supposedly “non-AP” course that was so much more rigorous than the regular old AP course would take the AP exams.
AP classes in most public schools are simply what the “honors” classes used to be. It culminates in an AP exam, but those scores come out in the summer long after they are relevant to the grade the student receives in the class.
I’m not arguing that having an honors class designed around the college board’s AP curriculum is no better or worse than an honors class designed against a different curriculum. But the AP EXAM is not a political tool right now. The common core exams are. And that is why the parents whose kids are in elementary and middle school and are being used as pawns in a political game are opting out.
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I would agree that scores on the exams have not been politicized yet on a wide scale basis. Local districts show some competitiveness with each other, but there is no national outcry about how poor public school children do on AP exams. I have noticed that at least more rigorous colleges do not tend to give credit for AP scores; they seem to be more likely to allow a student to opt out of the introductory courses. You still have to accumulate the same number of credits on campus as anyone else, and if a college has general ed requirements, you still have to take courses in the appropriate divisions to fulfill those requirements.
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Sorry NY Parent, you are hopelessly deluded.
The research is the research. And I cited a lot of it in my comment. The comparisons are, indeed, valid ones.
If the Common Core was political – and it was – then so are the SAT and AP programs and tests (as well as the ACT). Both the College Board and ACT, Inc. were instrumental players in developing the Common Core and its battery of tests. Both the College Board and ACT, Inc. have aligned all of their products the the Common Core. Both are also offering college and career “readiness” tests.
If you want to bury your head in the sand and pretend that the PSAT, and SAT and AP and ACT are somehow disconnected from the Common Core, be my guest.
That’s exactly what Bill Gates and David Coleman and their cronies would prefer.
And that’s exactly what we don’t need.
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democracy, I don’t understand what you believe I am “deluded” about.
I read your research and you don’t really understand my criticism. I am sure that students who take an intro level course in a subject at MIT and Harvard and then go on to a higher level class very likely do better than students who go right into the higher level class from high school because they “passed” the AP exam (which can be as low as a 3!)
But how about students who took AP classes in high school and are in the SAME introductory class? Are they doing worse? I doubt it. If your argument is that an AP class is not the same as the introductory class for Freshmen at Harvard and MIT, then I agree with you 100%!
Almost every student vying for Harvard and MIT understands that those schools don’t really accept AP credits anyway. They aren’t taking AP classes to skip out of intro level courses; they are taking them because they have replaced “Honors” classes in their high schools. And while you can argue that they are worthless, I would far prefer a public school student gets judged against a private school student based on her much higher test scores on the AP Exams or SAT subject tests. What I find most offensive is private schools claiming that colleges should just take their word that the student in their “honors” US history who got an A of course is better educated than the student who took AP US History and got a 5 or a perfect score, because those AP exams are meaningless. They were never meaningless until public school students starting getting wise and getting better scores than many private school students.
FYI – I am not going to defend the value of an AP versus a private school “honors seminar” class in European History. I don’t really have an opinion on it. But what you don’t realize is that the only thing that prevents these tests from becoming politicized is that ALL students — including private school students — take the same ones. So far, the SAT and AP Exams are not something that colleges DEMAND every public school student take for admission while telling private school students they are exempt because of course, the Heads of their private schools have told the Ivy League that their courses were far more rigorous than any test can prove.
What I described is exactly what has happened with the Common Core testing in grades K – 8. Private schools are welcome to opt in and aside from very few, they avoid it like the plague, claiming that they don’t need to take the SAME tests as public school students. They can have specially designed tests just for private school students! When the college admissions tests mirror what has happened with the K-8 common core tests, and private school students take DIFFERENT college admissions exams than public school students do, then those exams, too, will have become fully politicized.
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