Peter Greene here explains why he objects to Mike Petrilli’s defense of “no-excuses” charter schools that exclude or push out students they don’t want. Mike is the president of the Thomas B. Fordham Institute, which supports school choice, vouchers, charters, and high-stakes testing. In an article on the “Bloomberg View” website, Mike argued that disruptive students hurt high-achieving students, so it is appropriate to throw them out so the other students have a chance to reach their full potential.
Petrilli wrote:
Imagine that we wanted to prioritize the needs of low-income students who demonstrated the aptitude to achieve at high levels and a willingness to work hard — the kids with the best shot to use a solid education to put poverty behind. What might we do?
First, we would put in place “universal screening” tests to look for gifted students in early elementary schools. We would ask all schools, including those with a high percentage of poor students, to identify at least 10 percent of their students for special programs, and then allow these kids the opportunity to spend part of their day learning with other high-achieving peers, and to go faster or deeper into the curriculum. A recent study by David Card of the University of California at Berkeley and Laura Giuliano of the University of Miami demonstrated that this sort of approach is particularly effective for high-achieving, low-income students.
By middle school, we would embrace tracking so that poor, bright students had access to the same challenging courses that affluent high achievers regularly enjoy, and that are essential if young people are going to get on a trajectory for success in Advanced Placement classes in high school and at more selective colleges.
Finally, we would ensure that schools were safe and orderly places to be — balancing the educational needs of disruptive students with the equally valuable needs of their rule-abiding peers.
Yet in most cities we do very few of these things. This is in large part because many progressives are convinced that any sort of tracking is classist and racist, and amounts to giving up on certain kids, and they have worked to ban it. (Ironically, political leaders in the poorest neighborhoods themselves are asking for more schools for the gifted and talented.) Most accountability systems still work on getting low-performing students up to basic proficiency in reading and math, rather than pushing schools to help all students get as far as they can.
Meanwhile, discipline “reforms” are focused overwhelmingly on reducing punishments, often with little attention to the potential downside for learning in the classroom. Yet as common sense — and solid research — tells us, that downside is real. For instance, a study by the group Public Agenda found that 85 percent of teachers and 73 percent of parents felt the “school experience of most students suffers at the expense of a few chronic offenders.”
Frustrated that the traditional public schools aren’t willing to prioritize their children’s needs, many low-income strivers have turned to high-quality charter schools instead. But now those are under attack, too. In recent weeks, the “PBS Newshour” and “New York Times” had highly critical coverage of Success Academies, charter schools in New York City that have shown excellent results in improving student performance. The reports focused on the academies’ suspending students aggressively and removing those who are chronic disrupters. There were similar controversies over the relatively high rates of suspensions and expulsions at charters in Chicago and Washington in recent years.
Peter Greene takes issue with Petrilli on a number of points.
He writes that he does not want docile and compliant students. I don’t need compliant students. I need students who have some drive and initiative and are occasionally obnoxious because they are excited about stuff. Just in general, I see a real contradiction between striving and complying….
Petrilli talks about disruptive students as if disruptor status is permanently and unwaveringly a thing. The student who is a gigantic, disruptive pain in the butt on Monday may be the shining light on Wednesday. Being a disruptive student is not like being left-handed. For that matter, the student who is absolute disaster in your class may be my top student.
This is betterocracy at work, the notion that some people are just better than others, and that’s just how it is, and the purpose of public institutions like school is to sort out the Betters from the Lessers, allowing the Betters to rise and the Lessers to stay in place, as if every persons level of Betterness is fixed and static, wired into their dna.
Disruptosity is not an absolute, static condition. Worse, talking about “disruptive students” is like talking about “bad kids”– it locks a child into some sort of permanent state that colors all our interactions with him, instead of recognizing that we’re seeing a particular behavior on a particular day, but that behavior is not who the child is.
If a child is disruptive, Greene writes, he wants to know why. I may need to find a way to shut my disruptor down now so I can do my job for the rest of my students. But part of my job is to find out what is going on with the disruptor, because there’s a long list of reasons that a student might act out, and all of those reasons are important to know, particular as a representative of the school that is quite possibly the only place where the child encounters caring, professional adults.
Greene writes that the disruptive students may include some of the smartest students:
Like much of his talk on this subject, his call for universal screening to look for gifted students in elementary school seems to assume that academic aptitude goes hand in hand with striverliness, while not going along with disruptorosity. That is kind of hilarious. Because nobody knows how to spread chaos, disorder, and disruption like a really smart student. Particularly a really smart student who finds himself up against a school that wants him to show how compliant he is.
Greene has a proposal that will solve everyone’s problems with disruptive students:
It’s probably fair to say that there are some students so troubled and challenged that a traditional school setting just doesn’t work for them, and they become chronic disruptors. But that’s a small percentage. And since they are a small percentage of the school population and charters only have capacity for a small percentage of the school population and charter operators claim to know the secrets of making all students from all backgrounds successful, why don’t we do this– let the charters have the disruptors.
The strivers will be left in disruption-free public schools, safe and freed from Those People who interfere with their education. The disruptors will be set straight by the edu-wizards of the charter world. It’s perfect.
Now there is a modest but feasible proposal: Let the charters be the schools that solve the problems of disruptive students, a tiny fraction of the student population. Then everyone would join in the Hallelujah Chorus to charter miracles.

I listened to you on Philip Malderi’s show, KPFA this morning. You always explain the issues with clarity and always speak to the needs of the students and support teachers!
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This is brilliant! Last weekend and this, I’ve been in a Twitter debate with Dmitri Mehlhorn about charter school discrimination. I’m going to tweet this out right now.
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I was a bit concerned with Peter’s analysis until I got to his “modest proposal.” That is a true stroke of genius, one that should be used to unmask the charter miracle horse manure at every opportunity.
Meanwhile, I have a lot of experience teaching and coaching teachers in some of the most challenging districts and schools in SE Michigan, and to a lesser extent, Manhattan and the South Bronx. And there are places where the “handful” of chronic disrupters is more like a significant plurality. Furthermore, chronic disruptiveness can spread like many other unpleasant human behaviors and diseases. And I’ve yet to see a school, regular public or charter, that has a secret solution that works without degrees of repressiveness that simply operate close to prison control. The “bad behavior” is temporarily pushed underground, but what drives it doesn’t disappear and hence small flareups are regular and inevitable, as are eventual explosions. Whether the result is harm to teachers and less and non-disruptive students or a major repressive crackdown on the “bad actors,” the real problems are never openly acknowledged or successfully addressed. And the beat goes on.
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This is the business model of education. In business the goal is to get the maximum output with the minimum input. You can do this in business, where success is defined for public corporations as profit. That is the model Petrilli argues for–find the kids that are easiest to educate and educate them. That is the model that private schools have used for a long time.
If we as a society reject that model of education, believe that education is a PUBLIC GOOD and not a private good, that everyone deserves some basic level of education, then we have already rejected the application of business values to education.
If charters can combine public and private money, with higher spending, then it is reasonable to do exactly what Greene asks–put more resources for the harder to educate (but equally worthy of education in a democratic society) population. For educational methods to be effective, they should be be evaluated on how well they reach harder to educate populations, not the easier to educate populations.
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Please look at the original proposal by the AFT President in regard to creating charter schools. This seems to have been the idea from the start, but $$$$ got in the way. Money and a lot of potential profits brought in the Billionaire Boys Club and now we have this mess and we do not have enough money to stop it from growing and destroying our Public School system. They are like a flu virus, we can come up with a vaccine, but each year they come back in just a slightly different form of the flu virus and we need to create a newer vaccine, but who is paying for the newer vaccines each year and for how long can they continue to pay for them? Bill Gates should know about viruses and how difficult it is to fight them from his recent experience in Africa.
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Petrilli is skating mighty close to the philosophy behind eugenics but I’m sure he’s aware of that. The whole bogus ‘meritocracy’ movement in conservatism is simply social cover for racism and classism.
The ‘good’ blahs who become more like the white, middle-class ideal are allowed to advance. The rest? Thrown to the wolves by Petrilli and the charters. Right, Joe Nathan?
That’s the whole story behind Obama, the Kenyan Muslim Communist Usurper and Ben Carson, the Acceptable Black Man Who Gives Cover to the Racists.
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Chris in Florida: your first paragraph—
Is a harsh but apt characterization.
Thank you, and everyone else, for one of the best threads ever on this blog.
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Does anyone remember that the school choice movement started on the premise that it would help the low achievers to do better and now the message has changed to what the agenda of the corporate education demolition derby really wanted all along? First fool the people to justify your fraud and then once you have a few feet of that rope, take it all and refuse to help the kids they promised to help.
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Lloyd,
The promise of “saving poor kids in failing schools” was always a boast. It was meant to trick Democrats into supporting privatization. It has worked. So far.
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Yes, I figured that out a long time ago. NCLB, RTTT and the Common Core Crap agenda are all frauds designed to destroy the public schools, segregate the country between the halves and the have-nots and get at the public money that supports the public schools.
That’s all it has ever been. It is nothing but greed, a power play, and social engineering at its worst.
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How about the hard to teach duds at high achieving schools? Do we throw them out? Goose/Gander anyone?
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Why is it that disruption is a good and desirable thing when it’s done to schools, and students, from the top – federal and state governments, competition, etc. – but a very bad and undesirable thing when it’s done from the bottom – students, teachers? Who gains and who loses with different sources, types, and motivations?
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We could certainly have an honest national debate on whether there should be a special new sector of publicly-funded schools to serve this “striver” group, akin to “magnet schools”- but in order to do that we’d have to stop comparing these schools to ordinary public schools and we’d have to ask what the effects are on the public schools that take the “non strivers”, so I don’t think that’s likely.
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Having to pass a test to get into such a school would be a lot less stressful for the attendees than the current set up, where they essentially have to pass a test every day to stay in.
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Michael Petrelli, President of the Thomas B. Fordham Institute, is doing some promos for Chester Finn Jr.s” new book and the Fordham’s newest policy ideas.
Remember Chester E. Finn Jr.? He is former president of the Thomas B. Fordham Institute, known as a champion of the Common Core and conduit of money to push the college and career-ready agenda and tests nation wide. Now a senior fellow at Stanford’s Hoover Institution, Finn has teamed up with an editor at the Fordham Institute to reject that whole agenda and propose a new one. So here we go again.
Finn wants a serious revival of tracking in schools, starting in grade three with tests. These tests will perform a triage on kids so “we” know which ones are really smart, those whom he calls “our brightest kids” (at least at taking tests).
In a November 4, 2015 Commentary in EdWeek, Finn treats the ups and downs of international tests scores—reading, math, and science—as unimpeachable evidence of failed or successful policies in education and indicators of whether a country deserves to be considered “advanced” or not. Finn has decided that Finland has an undeserved reputation for being “advanced.”
Finland’s test scores are declining. Chester Finn uses those declines to justify his criticism of Finland’s “inclusive, child-centered instruction delivered in similar schools by exceptionally well-prepared teachers whose skills are supposed to include differentiating their instruction according to the needs, capacities, and prior achievement of all their pupils.”
Finn thinks that the popularity of this model within and outside of Finland rests with “its obvious allure on grounds of both fairness and individualization.” Even more important, Finn thinks that the Finnish model has been overrated. He does not seem to understand the possibilities for achieving “differentiating instruction” and ”achieving fairness” in Finland or elsewhere. All alk about inclusive child-centered education bothers him. In order to dampen enthusiasm for the Finnish model, Finn caricatures educators in the US and elsewhere as rejecting special education as a necessity for the gifted and talents, the best and brightest.
Here is the caricature: “We don’t need to provide special programs or schools for gifted children, because we expect every school and teacher to adapt their instruction to meet the unique educational needs of all children, including the very able.” Finn claims that everywhere he (and some unnamed colleagues) went ”in 11 countries” they encountered that idea.
Having created the false stereotype, and without blinking an eye, Finn then points to evidence of “a dizzying assortment” of programs and entire schools for gifted students, in Finland, in the US , and on other countries. Finn’s amazing feats of argumentation from false premises serve one purpose: to forward his favorite idea of the moment. Finn thinks that the US should adopt the early tracking and segregation policies that he found in Singapore, Western Australia, and the Asian Tiger Mom countries . He is forwarding his ideas in what appears to be a coordinated effort with commentaries from Mike Petrelli, now president of the Fordham Institute.
Here are some key ideas.
1. We should not expect “Classroom Differentiation” to meet the needs of every child.
2. Low-achieving students are taking resources and teacher attention away from the needs of the best and brightest.
3. “No school system can make the most of every child’s potential without support from elsewhere.”
4. “Accelerated learning” is good for “smart kids,” and “especially good for high ability minority students.”
5. Teacher and parental recommendations are impediments to sound policies for smart kids.
6. Teachers and schools do not press for academic growth in all of their students.
7. We are “failing” to serve our brightest students.
8. We should have the following policies.
(a) Test all 3rd and 4th graders for ability and achievement,
(b) Create a separate track for the top scoring 3rd and 4th students,
(c) Place the top students in separate classrooms or schools with “enrichment” programs,
(d) Provide mastery-based education (non-graded) so that progress through school is not impeded by seat time.
(e) Offer incentives for teachers and schools that “raise the ceiling on achievement.”
(f) Frame this whole reform as a “global challenge” that we MUST meet.
Since we know that the Fordham and Hoover Institutes favor vouchers, charters, and high-stakes testing, I think we are witnessing a new campaign to justify tracking for the talented in tandem with so-called mastery-based education. The campaign seems to be designed to justify selective admissions for all charter schools and to begin a marketing strategy intended to recruit the best and brightest in all schools to these new schools with the bait of being among the elite and not being held back by “dumb and disruptive” kids. The recruiting will be conducted in public and private schools, in secular and religious school. The idea that all good and just things flow from a meritocracy, especially those with a great gene pool, will be revitalized….as if unproblematic.
“Failing Our Brightest Kids: The Global Challenge of Educating High-Ability Students, (2015) September Harvard Education Presss.
More at http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2015/11/04/a-different-kind-of-lesson-from-finland.html
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Is comparing him to Hitler off base?
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Checkers Finn was the godfather of the failed standards movement, which he insisted for roughly 2 decades was the panacea for what ailed US education and he insisted it would end poverty.
His cohort cannot allow egalitarian thought: there MUST be a meritocracy, there MUST be losers to serve the winners, some MUST be scapegoats who are blamed and punished for the foolish policies of their economic and racial betters. Bircherism and other equally heinous belief systems are the bedrock of all they do.
A world where all are allowed to exist and thrive alongside one another in mutual respect and harmony is repugnant to them and stinks of hippies and patchouli and early Christianity and it must be outlawed and, if possible, eradicated.
Hitler? Not openly. But other equally loathsome historical figures? Most definitely. God, that Gerald Bracey were still alive to bring Checkers down in that way that only he could . . . .
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Thank you Laura.
As I said earlier, eugenics and “The Bell Curve” redux.
These sociopaths never tire of resurrecting old, failed, and horrendous ideology and painting it with a shiny, bright coat of paint for the next generation, do they?
It has ever been thus.
Yet the Internet makes it very hard to hide and maintain cover and that is ruinous to their plots and schemes, as we see with the CCSS.
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Dear Dr. Ravitch,I am a huge supporter of yours and enjoy receiving your blog. My only disagreement with you is the way you portray LAUSD Board Member Steve Ziimmer. You paint him as teacher friendly.I hope you will quote from today’s LA Times front page story on the results of a new suspension policy strongly supported by Mr. Zimmer. Last spring, the Board voted to eliminate suspensions for confrontational behavior in the classroom. The Times reports on the kinds of behavior teachers in the LAUSD must tolerate as a result of this policy. Concern about the number minority students suspended is well placed, but taking away tool for classroom control from teachers is not the answer. Having taught for 36 years for the LAUSD, I felt my stomach turn when I read about the student who told the teacher to “screw you”, and the teacher had no effective way to respond. During a good portion of my career I taught at a magnet school. We had students who traveled 2 hours from the inner city to go to schools where classroom behavior allowed them to learn. Who speaks for them?Looking forward to your response.
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Petrilli is dangerous and the worst kind of ignorant fool. If this is what he proposes as a “White Savior” bringing culture and learning to the brown people who might not understand how awesome his class is, then he and the others should devote their time and money to establishing free private schools in the ‘hood. I lived through ‘tracking’ and I was tracked, I got an education but many of my friends and relatives were not so lucky. No educator should be given the power to make life choices or to cut off avenues of learning or earning from anyone especially in middle school or as Duncan would like to do, in second grade.
Has he ever taught or known people who went to expensive private schools? My assessment of children of the upper-class is that they have no more or less ability or intelligence than my working class cohort. Wealthy private schools take almost all those that can pay including the obnoxious and the trouble-makers.
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The whole reason we got NCLB was because of tracking and “giving up” on the trouble makers. High expectations for all have a familiar ring?? That was only so good as it justified closing failing schools. Now let’s lower those expectations on the kids we expect to be left behind.
What is funny is a meritocracy would assume all kids should have equitable chances to pull themselves up.
Petrilli’s system is the path to a perpetual under class. It is no exaggeration a form of the hunger games – complete with societal caste system.
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It reals of TFA’s shouts of “the best and brightest” ill prepared “teachers” versus truly qualified, educated, “actually want to be teachers” TEACHERS. More of the same b.s. from the same b.s. machine.
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I like that idea. Let the charter schools deal with the smaller number of disrupters and other groups that are challenged and send the rest of the students to public schools who already know how to advance our kids. Many of our public schools are already identifying students that might thrive in alternative programs like magnet schools which are already recognized as superior to most charters.
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I don’t like this idea either way – how is it better if we make the charters “suffer” with the “bad” kids? Which seems to be the implication.
Any system that allows us to segregate, label, and discard childrens’ futures’ should be impermissible. Meaning we should have one system that consciously decides what kinds of environments to establish and how to assign children to those environments with THEIR needs in mind – as an entire system and an entire school.
What serves everyone best – not just individuals – and those 2 are not interchangeable and not necessarily the same thing.
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While I agree fundamentally with Greene here and laud his point that disruptive behavior is hard to pin down, I would like to suggest that the real gorilla in the schoolroom (mixed metaphor?) is that a far greater percentage of students are too behaviorally dysfunctional to learn. Moreover, these children are the ones who need to be taught the basics. How to read is just a part. They need to be taught how to work together and to value learning. I suggest at least 30% of our students are in this boat
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From my 30 years in the classroom, I agree with you. There are far too many children who don’t know how to learn and most if not all of those children also don’t want to read. They don’t like it anymore than most of our children don’t like drinking water becasue it has no sugar in it.
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A charter school for disrupters sounds interesting but this concept has
already played out in some school districts. In the LaMesa-Spring Valley Schools in San Diego–we had Chaparelle School. Students in HS who were chronically in trouble with the law or in their schools were sent there before being totally expelled. The students generally did well as they knew that it was their last chance. This was in the 90s so I don’t know if it still exists but it served a great purpose then.
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Reblogged this on Politicians Are Poody Heads.
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I have worked in a school in which we allowed the students and their parents to pick the “track.” Basically, in English classes we offered three different courses at each grade level: an AP equivalent, a grade-level appropriate class, and a class for those who wanted functional and supportive reading. Amazingly, only one student who was willing to be challenged chose the grade-level class although he was not a strong reader. Several recognized their difficulties and interests and chose the supportive reading class.
The same idea was developed by Jackie Goldberg in Compton. The high school allowed kids to choose the kind of academic structure that suited them.
I am always surprised by conservative thinkers who simply do not wish to ask the customer what s/he wants but go with social engineering to meet their own goals. What about choice at this basic level? Why CC for everyone that was dreamed up by a central committee?
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Has Petrilli ever known any kids over a long period of time? I used to get kids who tested gifted in elementary. They were only a little below average later while the truly gifted had gone on to special public schools. It’s pretty much a crap shoot, even when everything is equal.
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