Peter Greene intermittently watched the Republicans debate education in a friendly setting created by Campbell Brown and the American Federation for Children, both representing privatization and union-bashing perspectives.
He concluded that the GOP has an education problem. Their positions are incoherent, aside from the obvious fact that they are eager to get rid of traditional public schools.
The love teachers, but hate their unions and want to get rid of them. They seem to think that unions are run by space aliens and are somehow disconnected from the teachers they allegedly represent. They love teachers, except for all those very bad ones who cause poor kids to get low scores.
But mostly unions are bad because they make us follow all these rules and pay teachers money and keep teacher job securities in place, and our great teachers don’t want any of those obstacles to doing their jobs. We teachers apparently love it when we can be paid whatever and lose our jobs at any time for any reasons. Love it.
They love local control except when they don’t. They love state takeovers of schools and whole districts but that has nothing to do with their love of local control. They love the idea that states can take schools away from districts and turn them over to private entrepreneurs because…well, because choice trumps local control.
They hate red tape, but they love accountability which requires lots and lots of red tape.
Yesterday confirmed what I have suspected, which is that if a GOP candidate talks about education for more than sixty seconds, the raft of self-contradictions come floating in. Standardization is bad, but students should all do the same thing. Local control is great, except when it should be eliminated. Teachers are great. Teachers suck. No federal overreach, but complete accountability for tax dollars.
This is going to be a long primary season. Let’s hope the Democrats can do better.
Now, here is the problem and you can bet Peter Greene will address it. The Democrats have an education problem too. It is called Race to the Top, which looks like the evil twin of the evil No Child Left Behind. They love standardized tests because no one will know that there are achievement gaps unless they are measured yearly. They love charters because…well, just because. They don’t love vouchers but they prefer not to talk about it. They love teachers, and the ones they love best are the ones who can produce the highest test scores year after year.
Which party is more incoherent?

There’s an American Federation of Children? I wonder how many children joined and was it tarted by children. I thought the boy and girl scouts was the organization for children.
I Googled it:
MISSION STATEMENT
The American Federation for Children and the Alliance for School Choice seek to improve our nation’s K-12 education by advancing systemic and sustainable public policy that empowers parents, particularly those in low-income families, to choose the education they determine is best for their children.
In the lower right hand corner of the About page it claims that they have served nearly 360,000 children.
What did they serve them or did they serve them to someone else?
The American Federation for Children was launched in January 2010, when America’s leading private school choice organizations worked together to create a lasting and sustainable structure for the advancement of school choice through the creation of AFC.
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Lloyd, the American Federation for Children is a pro-voucher organization founded by Betsy DeVos of Michigan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betsy_DeVos), whose husband is an heir to the Amway fortune. Her brother Erik Prince is the founder of the international security firm, Blackwater. She and her family have poured many millions into campaigns for vouchers. She has been chairman of the Michigan Republican party. She is very far to the right.
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Blackwater. Wow! That’s really bad news. I’ve read enough about that company to know that the founder of Backwater might easily become a brutal dictator if he ever came to total power over a country. From all that I’ve read, the evidence says he thinks he is above all laws.
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You cannot engage in “debate” with a libertarian. It is like banging your head against a brick wall. Libertarianism is nothing but a cult masquerading as a political movement.
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Thank you. I know. But libertarians are much worse than a cult. They are an evil coven of fools who would destroy law an order and the U.S. republic so their masters, the Koch brothers and ALEC, would be free to do whatever they wanted to make a profit with no one stopping them.
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It seems to me that many here are for local control except when they are against it as well. Jefferson County and east Rampo come to mind, as well as every school district that is or should be under a court order to desegregate.
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TE, when you violate the law, you lose local control.
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Dr. Ravitch,
Prosecuting local school boards for violating state or federal is exactly how state and the federal government trump local control. Which state and federal atempts to control local control do you approve of and which do you disapprove of?
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TE, you may not like this, but there is such a thing as human judgment. I grew up in the segregated South, and state laws and local control kept racial segregation in place. Then the Supreme Court upset the laws and the status quo. Many people had to engage in civil disobedience to bring about the Supreme Court decision, and many people did so long after the Supreme Court decision. I applaud those parents and educators who opt out because their children belong to them, not the state, and because they are protecting them from harmful policies inflicted by federal and state laws.
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Dr. Ravitch,
I certainly agree that human judgement exists, and that is why any thinking person might be in favor of local control when they judge the decisions to be correct, but against local control when they judge the decisions to be incorrect. I don’t think it is a criticism of republicans, it is a criticism of humans making judgements.
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“. . . because they are protecting them from harmful policies inflicted by federal and state laws.”
And I contend those laws that mandate discrimination by inherent, beyond the control of the individual mental abilities/capabilities are just as bad/unethical/immoral/unconstitutional as those laws that you (Diane) grew up with in the South that discriminated against persons by race and at other times in our history discriminated by gender and sexual orientation.
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Duene ,
Can I conclude from your statement that you support local control except when you do not? That seems to me to be the right position to take, but not all will agree.
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TE,
In all things, moderation. Absolutism leads you astray. Anyone who says that the US Department of Education is always right or the local school board is always right is not thinking.
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Dr. Ravitch,
I am very much a fan of moderation. I frequently use the word “some”, for example and encourage its use by other posters here.
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“Prosecuting local school boards for violating state or federal is exactly how state and the federal government trump local control.”
Um, no, it isn’t. Nearly all of the local districts that have been taken over by the state have been because of “poor performance” (on test scores). If you don’t understand the difference between that vs. takeover because of law-breaking, you’re (again) being willfully obtuse.
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Furthermore, TE, not once has the state managed to improve on the district’s “poor performance”, yet never once has the state returned the district to local control in light of state failure.
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Dianne,
In my state it is the state that requires local districts to hire qualified teachers and the federal government that requires local districts to educate those with with learning disabilities. Does the state of Illinois leave those things up to the local districts?
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TE,
You are not actually proving anything at all with this argument: “Can I conclude from your statement that you support local control except when you do not? That seems to me to be the right position to take, but not all will agree.”
Everyone takes that position on most things. You are generalizing to make a fairly insignificant point. Examples: Most of us are for the police, unless they abuse their power. Most of us are for parental rights, unless they abuse their children. Come on. Stop lumping all posters together just because they didn’t think of the “unless” in their comments and make it clear to your rigid and willful obtuse thinking.
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The Morrigan,
Dr. Ravitch’s original post had this statement: “They love local control except when they don’t.” I took this to be a criticism of the Republican Party, and it seemed worthwhile to point out that everyone does the same thing, just as you say in your comment.
When Duane posted about discrimination by sexual orientation being unconstitutional, what he meant was that the Supreme Court found it to violate the federal constitution, and the federal constitution trumps state constitution.
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The Troll returns, seeking to misdirect discussion … Which is no reason to engage with it…
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Dehumanizing a poster would seem to be a personal insult.
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I do not approve of dehumanizing any poster.
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Dr. Ravitch,
What is referring to “the troll” but an attempt to dehumanize? Much like the other, more foul names that I have been called here in your living room.
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TE, toughen your skin. My blog rule #1 is that no one insults me. Readers disagree all the time, and some people have very thin skins.
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Diane,
We are now discussing violation of laws. Here is an example that might change your views. You be the judge.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/ohio-mom-jailed-sending-kids-school-district/story?id=12763654
An Ohio mother’s attempt to provide her daughters with a better education has landed her behind bars.
Kelley Williams-Bolar was convicted of lying about her residency to get her daughters into a better school district.
“It’s overwhelming. I’m exhausted,” she said. “I did this for them, so there it is. I did this for them.”
Williams-Bolar decided four years ago to send her daughters to a highly ranked school in neighboring Copley-Fairlawn School District.
But it wasn’t her Akron district of residence, so her children were ineligible to attend school there, even though her father lived within the district’s boundaries.
The school district accused Williams-Bolar of lying about her address, falsifying records and, when confronted, having her father file false court papers to get around the system.
Williams-Bolar said she did it to keep her children safe and that she lived part-time with her dad.
“When my home got broken into, I felt it was my duty to do something else,” Williams-Bolar said.
While her children are no longer attending schools in the Copley-Fairlawn District, school officials said she was cheating because her daughters received a quality education without paying taxes to fund it.
“Those dollars need to stay home with our students,” school district officials said.
Sentence Intended as Deterrent
The district hired a private investigator, who shot video showing Williams-Bolar driving her children into the district.
The school officials asked her to pay $30,000 in back tuition.
Williams-Bolar refused and was indicted and convicted of falsifying her residency records.
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Raj,
What part of this blog do you like best? Every comment you make is critical of someone else. This blog supports students, public schools, teachers, parents, professionalism, and collective bargaining. You object and object and object. Why bother?
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Diane,
“Raj,
What part of this blog do you like best? Every comment you make is critical of someone else. This blog supports students, public schools, teachers, parents, professionalism, and collective bargaining. You object and object and object. Why bother?”
I am glad that you asked these questions
Here are my answers.
Let me put the facts straight:
1. First of all your questions are critical of me.
2. I do like the parts of the blog and some of the subjects such as common core, testing. I have learned quite a bit from those and have commented as such. I always and will continue to support change. My mind is not closed.
3. I have been following this blog for about 10 months. Early on I was called names and attempts were made to drive me out. I am not an educator.
4. People here are trying to suppress the other side of the discussion by attacking the writer and not writing strong rebuttals of his/her views. Many a blogger has been run out of this blog. If this blog is supposed to be just a one sided discussion, please say so right up front.
5. I never said anything against students, public schools, teachers or parents and collective bargaining. I do not think the bloggers here show much professionalism. I hardly ever express my opinion, but always point out facts that in many cases support the other side. People read between the lines and have stated in this blog that I am employed by Bill Gates, Waltons, or by the Los Angeles Times Editorial Board and many more unsavory statements. I state that I am retired and is not employed by anybody or any organization.
6. My mind is not made up and will continue to evolve, in spite of comments on my comments. You will notice that I am always trying to put the facts out front.
7. If you think that I have no leg to stand on, please state so and I will take my leave and never bother you or your supporters. I strongly believe that every one has a place in this society. But please point out my comments against students, teachers, public schools, collective bargaining, etc.
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“I strongly believe that every one has a place in this society.”
Even the 2.2+ million in prison?
How about Keith Simmons, Sholam Weiss, Keith Pound, Norman Schmidt, Robert Thompson, Bernie Madoff, R. Allen Stanford, Will Hoover, Richard Harkless, Karen Bowie, Frederick Brandau, etc?
http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2013/12/11/a-reordering-of-the-top-10-white-collar-prison-sentences/
Or how about these famous serial killers who are still alive?
Charles Manson
Gary Ridgway
Dennis Rader
Dennis Nilsen
Charles Cullen
David Berkowitz
Wayne Williams
Donato Bilancia
Hu Wanlin
etc.
http://www.ranker.com/list/famous-serial-killers-who-are-still-alive/ranker-crime
Or these priests who molested children?
http://bishop-accountability.org/priestdb/PriestDBbylastName-A.html
Or Michelle Rhee who boasted she would accomplished much but accomplished almost nothing when she ran Washington DC’s schools?
http://takingnote.learningmatters.tv/?p=6490
http://takingnote.learningmatters.tv/?p=6232
I suspect that “place in our society” doesn’t always have to a good one. After all, we really do need criminals, killers and frauds, don’t we, to keep the rest of us hard working Americans honest even if we are robbed of all we worked hard for?
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Raj, I questioned you because you are aggressively opposed to the views of parents and teachers who contribute to the blog. I welcome you as a participant in the discussion but question your hostility to the views of others. If people have called you names, I regret that. I think you don’t understand how angry and demoralized educators are these days by the vicious public attacks on their profession in the media. They are looking here for support, not for another naysayer. What you see as “facts” all too often appear to be your opinion. You all too often sound in your remarks like another teacher-basher. I am sure you will correct this impression in future remarks.
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I agree every one here is either a parent or a teacher or both. I was both quite sometime ago, now I am just a grand parent.
I cannot antagonize any one with facts (and links to the facts). The fact is there for all to see. They are not just my facts, they are facts.
I also understand how demoralized some of the teachers are, but I do know some who are very satisfied with their opportunities.
My hostile reaction appears only when some one recommends a drone strike on some one else, or call some one a right wing nut or recommend execution of all teachers or banish them to Alaska and similar comments even if it is a joke. I am also hostile when I am called a troll, a shrill and many other derogatory terms or Gates, Walton, Broad, LA Times supporter.
I respect anyone who writes a well defined rebuttal to my comments and remain committed to the subject.
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TE,
No, you may not conclude that! Thanks for asking!
I said nothing one way or the other about local vs non local control. How did you come up with that one out of what I wrote? Perhaps your reading comprehension abilities are what drove you economics in the first place, eh!?!?!
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teachingeconomist, do you find it okay if the control of a charter school is only by its board and a handpicked group of political appointees by the state who have already showed favoritism to one charter school because the billionaires who sit on their board are people they want to please? Especially when the oversight board has not once shown any curiosity about why so many at-risk children leave. It’s just a “coincidence”, no need to actually investigate why because the charter school told us that those kids just wanted to leave so badly they just couldn’t stop them. But of course!
I watched the SUNY Charter Institute laughing their heads off last October when they were given information (never contradicted) that the charter school whose many applications to expand they had just approved was shown to have empty seats (despite claiming wait lists of thousands). I am paraphrasing here, but the conversation went something like: “It was a glitch” said one Charter Institute employee. “They didn’t have time to advertise” (to the thousands on their waitlist?) said another board member. Just like the board members say results is all that matters — if lots of at-risk children are leaving, let’s approve them changing their priority so that not too many at-risk kids get in. And let’s approve them opening a new elementary school where they have empty seats instead of one where they have thousands of kids on their wait list, which makes no sense if you care about at-risk kids but does make sense if you are desperate to get affluent kids to keep your attrition rates down (since oddly those affluent kids don’t get suspended at age 5 nearly as many times and – surprise! – remain at the school.)
teachingeconomist, there is absolutely nothing to stop unethical charter schools from making unwanted (mostly poor) kids feel misery until they leave in order to be able to brag about their test scores. Nothing. And the fact that you do not want to reform THAT speaks volumes about how little you care about those kids at all. Why? And why the need to lie and claim those schools are educating every kid when they are certainly not doing so? I have never seen a public school which claims it works miracles – the successful ones with top scores readily acknowledge that their students are different than the ones in failing schools. It takes a certain chutzpah by a charter school to claim otherwise AFTER dropping priority for the kids they claim they are trying to help.
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NYC Public,
I am not all that concerned by an independent board controlling a charter school. If the families believe the school is poorly managed, they can leave. I am concerned about politicians controlling a school, which is one reason that it seems reasonable to have more regulations attached to a school controlled by politicians that students must attend than a school controlled by a private board that students might choose to attend. Given the very harsh criticism of politicians by orthodox posters on this blog, I am somewhat surprised that more posters here do not share my concern.
I do think charter schools require some regulation, and certainly there should not be unethical charter schools. It would be good to join forces with the ethical charter schools to write a set of regulations that forces the unethical ones out. It seems foolish to me, though, to close all charter schools in order to get rid of clearly unethical ones.
I am a little concerned about regulations that require backfilling of classes, though. As I see it, the advantage of a choice school (charter or magnet) is that it can offer a different approach to education. It may be the case that the approach a school uses is different enough that it is not a good idea for a student to start in the middle. Many private Montessori schools, for example, do not backfill classes. I don’t believe that the qualified admission high schools in NYC do a great deal of backfilling either.
I suspect that the popularity of charter schools in NYC stems at least in part from the gigantic size of the school district. Any district with 1.1 million students will have a bureaucracy that parents might decide is best avoided.
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TE,
I don’t think any poster on this blog wants politicians to control schools. As a generalization, I believe that most want educators to control schools.
You are creating a smokescreen.
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Dr. Ravitch,
Many post here about the importance of democratic control over schools. Indeed, that is one of the common criticisms of charter schools. How do we get democratic control in a representative democracy without politicians?
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teachingeconomist, you have just made an argument for charter schools to get rid of kids they don’t want to teach with no regulations to stop it. Well, they can’t actively bar the gate — but no problem with them suspending a child over and over again and making him feel misery until he leaves. And if that results in higher scores, the charter would still be in good standing — in fact, the charter would be in BETTER standing than a charter school that does its best to educate all students and make them feel welcome, and thus ends up with many at-risk kids.
Saying we need BOTH kinds of charter schools is a little bit scary to me. Especially if they both get the same funding but one gets to profit by getting rid of the most expensive kids. It’s a poor allocation of resources. If you want those kinds of schools, you can have public schools doing that work, and the “profit” that goes to pay a charter school CEO a gigantic salary can be used to educate the kids that this charter model school makes feel misery until they leave.
What a huge waste of resources.
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Reblogged this on World's Greatest Detective of Education and commented:
All politicians are clueless about education, GOP is just worse. Bernie Sanders my not be an education expert, but he is by far our best hope. He will actually listen and surround himself with brilliant people.
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Thank you for clarifying that BOTH parties have education problems – it comes down to the fact that politicians have no idea what it takes to teach students today and, instead of asking teachers for direction, they turn to more non-educators for advice. They need to stop, back away, and let the professionals (teachers) figure out to salvage the mess they’ve created!!
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Teachers are great. Teachers suck.
That is hilarious. I an laughing because I know this all too well.
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The disconnect between the national and the state-level narrative is what amazes me.
Here’s another in what is now a near-daily blistering Ohio newspaper editorial on John Kasich’s education reforms:
http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/08/legislative_inaction_adds_to_o.html
There were actually two today. There was one in the Toledo Blade also.
At some point these two competing narratives have to collide, right? It’s like two different worlds.
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Making schools about choices avoids addressing the incoherent narrative of our society being meritocratic when increasing evidence and personal experience dictate merit is not what drives our society currently . rather than rebalancing priorities in the face of class warfare, the “choice” narrative remains and if you don’t make it, that is your fault for lacking grit or will to succeed or talent.
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Aaaand now every major newspaper in the state teams up to force Kasich to release emails related to why the husband of his national campaign manager cooked the books on charter school ratings:
“Sensing that the release of the public documents is taking unreasonably long, the major newspapers in Ohio compared their requests.
Staff at The Blade in Toledo and The Vindicator in Youngstown said that they were concerned over the time it takes to obtain information.
But what began to raise concern was the consistency of problems at other papers in their attempts to conduct independent investigations of the Hansen matter.
The Akron Beacon Journal, the Cincinnati Enquirer, the Cleveland Plain Dealer, the Columbus Dispatch and the Dayton Daily News all submitted formal records requests and posed simple questions attempting to determine whether Hansen acted alone.
“After everything blew up at the board of education meeting, we asked for emails that would show any discussion of the process that Hansen was using,” said Doug Caruso, assistant city editor at the Dispatch. “And we haven’t gotten anything.”
I don’t how the crack team of celebrity journalists and editors at The 74 missed this ongoing charter school rating scandal in their adoring coverage of John Kasich’s education reforms. They’re paid a heck of a lot more than any of the journalists at these newspapers.
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2015/08/ohio_department_of_education_h.html
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Democrats have a bigger problem because the party has been hijacked by neoliberals. Remember, this destruction of public education accelerated under Barack Obama and Arne Duncan, two Democrats who should have been run out office. Without a fake Dem in the White House, this mess we are currently going through would not have happened.
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The St. Louis Post Dispatch ran an article which raised my suspicions….”American Federation of Teachers takes on racial justice”……I suspect the editor to whom the reporter answers, might have perpetrated some sort of journalistic abuse towards her….I expressed my feelings in the comments…I had a feeling it was designed for effect….and I pointed out my suspicions of catering to those who are comfortable with “predatory plutocracy” ….something which the PD claims in its platform to fight. I used this article in trying to create a better context for unions…..I hope someone can read the article and tell me….you are dead wrong about this, Joe. http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/education/american-federation-of-teachers-takes-on-racial-justice/article_1eaf1143-db7c-5601-9f10-f3b4914e9820.html?mode=comments
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