The New York Times writes about the workplace and culture of amazon.com.
It is an unsparing portrait of a brutal, competitive, heartless work environment.
No excuses!
“At Amazon, workers are encouraged to tear apart one another’s ideas in meetings, toil long and late (emails arrive past midnight, followed by text messages asking why they were not answered), and held to standards that the company boasts are “unreasonably high.” The internal phone directory instructs colleagues on how to send secret feedback to one another’s bosses. Employees say it is frequently used to sabotage others. (The tool offers sample texts, including this: “I felt concerned about his inflexibility and openly complaining about minor tasks.”)”
“Many of the newcomers filing in on Mondays may not be there in a few years. The company’s winners dream up innovations that they roll out to a quarter-billion customers and accrue small fortunes in soaring stock. Losers leave or are fired in annual cullings of the staff — “purposeful Darwinism,” one former Amazon human resources director said. Some workers who suffered from cancer, miscarriages and other personal crises said they had been evaluated unfairly or edged out rather than given time to recover.
“Even as the company tests delivery by drone and ways to restock toilet paper at the push of a bathroom button, it is conducting a little-known experiment in how far it can push white-collar workers, redrawing the boundaries of what is acceptable. The company, founded and still run by Jeff Bezos, rejects many of the popular management bromides that other corporations at least pay lip service to and has instead designed what many workers call an intricate machine propelling them to achieve Mr. Bezos’ ever-expanding ambitions.”
Sound familiar?
A modern version of Fritz Lang’s “Metropolis,” a classic silent film?

Even with these horror stories, consumers still vote with their money and the lower price almost always wins over humanity, even if the employees are tortured wage slaves.
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While I knew Amazon’s CEO was a big supporter of the Reform movement, I didn’t know this until I saw the article. I have yet to buy anything from Walmart because of these issues.
But I can’t say I’m surprised. Many corporations used the economic crisis to lay off workers forcing those who were left behind to carry the load and be grateful they had a job. Many salaries and benefits were also cut while big profits were being made. I’m ashamed to say I use Amazon and was shocked by this report. This will be the last year of my Prime subscription. But I doubt this report will change the minds of most consumers. But perhaps it will cause a firestorm of protests although I don’t see any comments about this on their FB page and I don’t have a Twitter account. Maybe those with Twitter can Tweet both the article and Diane’s post to their site?
I do know companies like Netflix, also aligned with the Reform movement and whose CEO almost killed the company, just offered a wonderful maternity leave package. That I can at least respect although they also went through a major downsizing.
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I called and was told I can’t cancel Prime once it’s used. The gentleman on the phone said I was the first caller to inquire about this and he didn’t know about the NYTimes report, so I informed him.
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What! Of course you can cancel. Maybe you signed up for a year but I doubt very much you would be forced to pay after the year is up. I never signed up for Prime but I assume you agree to a one year contract when you use it. With Amazon Prime, shipments are free so as long as you use Amazon there may be a clause in the contract that treats each shipment as a new one year contract. If you really want to drop Amazon Prime it may mean you have to stop shopping with them for a year. I would also consider canceling any credit card on file with Amazon BEFORE the year is up.
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I have reduced my purchases from Amazon. At one time I thought I would make all my purchases through Amazon but after seeing several articles exposing the working conditions I decided to shop as much as possible locally even if costs are a bit higher. Some products are only available online at Amazon. But when I can I avoid Amazon.
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I agree. When Costco offers a similar product even if it costs more, I buy it from Costco before I buy it from Amazon—and it is obvious that Costco treats its employees MUCH better than Amazon does. Costco also has a low turnover rate compared to other retail companies.
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I try my BEST to buy from LOCAL, small stores, rather than those BIG BOX stores which don’t provide a living wage and go nuts re: making profits. BUY LOCAL!
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Costco is different. We know people who work there and they earn enough to buy their own homes.
How Costco Can Afford To Pay The Best Wages In The Industry
Costco is often praised by politicians and labor activists for paying its employees more than the minimum wage.
The company, which pays new employees $11.50—$4.25 more than the minimum wage—has become a standard bearer in the fight for higher wages at Wal-Mart and other major retail chains.
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/why-costco-pays-more-than-other-chains-2014-4#ixzz3j0dzsiq5
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Another consideration: Costco offers an excellent return policy which is 90 days last time I checked. While Amazon is also fairly good with returns sometimes you have to pay for the return shipping costs. I never make a major purchase without a return option. So, frequently Amazon isn’t lower cost when returns are factored in.
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I love Costco and am very conscious of the excellent reputation they have for treating workers well. However, they, too, are competing with small businesses who cannot match their prices. For example, we checked with a local business for a price on tires that Costco had as a special deal. They could not meet it, nor could any of the other local retailers. Costco had a special deal with the manufacturers that would never be an option for small retailers. The local business told us to take the deal, but we will always go to them for service. We can build a level of trust that just isn’t possible with a “big box” in terms of service. Margins are often quite small on big ticket items, so small businesses do not make much off such transactions. Remember your local retailers when making those little purchases where markups are higher and always be aware of the level of service you receive. Local businesses rely on their reputations for personalized service. Buy those back to school products from your local merchant.
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I hope even after retiring I can still afford to buy new tires, or even an oil change, from our neighborhood auto service garage. My dad & brothers worked as auto mechanics in their day. You have to do high-quality work for long hours just to make your nut. But where else is your kid gonna go when something snaps in the brakes while he’s delivering pizzas– & they squeeze him in & turn it around in time for the next shift? To the guy who’s been keeping all your old vehicles ship-shape for 25 years.
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Costco does tires. It doesn’t do auto repairs. For an auto mechanic, it’s almost always safer to find an independent and stay away from dealers and big repair chains like Sears offers.
For instance, my wife had her oil changed at the local new car dealer and it ended up costing her $400 by the time the dealer was done. She was upset enough to listen to me, finally, to go to a smaller outfit and stay away form the corporate dealer. The next oil change cost her less than $50 from a local less than a block from that Toyota dealer who soaked her for $400.
When the water pump went out in my car, I went out to get quotes. The dealer’s quote was the highest. I ended up at a local indie mechanic and saved $100.
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” Costco does tires. It doesn’t do auto repairs. ”
I was a bit confused by this comment. I don’t think anyone claimed they did. The point being made was how easily the big box operations could take business from small retailers who have no means of competing by price. You were right to highlight the superior service that is often available from independent garages. I can’t imagine using a manufacturer’s mechanics except if I had a warranty repair. The issue is far bigger than whether we use local mechanics. Do you have a local independent pharmacy or have they all succumbed to the chains? How about a hardware store? Stationary? Pet store? Shoe store? Toy store? Bookstore? Sporting goods store? I would contend that the personal attention and expertise of employees is likely to be much greater at the local small retailer than at the big box in the nearest mall. I am as guilty as the next person of looking for the best price, but I am trying to be conscious of the intangibles that local businesses are so much better at providing. They are part of the community. I think that is probably the key. Although losing a local public school can have a much bigger impact on a community, the loss of those local businesses diminishes a community as well.
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We live near an upscale shopping hub and I think most of the downtown businesses are indie owned restaurants or dress shops and that they outnumber the corporate chains that area also in town but how much does a small dress shop or Thai restaurant earn for its owners compared to the corporate competition?
On that note, “In 2010 there were 27.9 million small businesses, and 18,500 firms with 500 employees or more.” … “Small firms accounted for 64 percent of the net new jobs created between 1993 and 2011 (or 11.8 million of the 18.5 million net new jobs). Since the latest recession, from mid-2009 to 2011, small firms, led by the larger ones in the category (20-499 employees), accounted for 67 percent of the net new jobs.”
Click to access FAQ_Sept_2012.pdf
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The neoliberal future, writ large.
I too have been a longtime Amazon Prime member and I spend a significant amount of money with the company.
After reading this expose I will no longer be a member and my money is going to go elsewhere.
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A neoliberal, FACIST future?
Fascism definition: extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice.
I think the defintion of noliberal is wrong: relating to a modified form of liberalism tending to favor free-market capitalism.
Using the world “free” when the neoliberal movement is using authoritarian methods to achieve its agenda doesn’t fit.
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I’m never sure what “neoliberal” means but this a very good piece that goes a long way toward explaining it:
http://harpers.org/archive/2015/09/the-neoliberal-arts/
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Lloyd,
I AGREE! Defininition of neoliberal today means as you wrote: “…using authoritarian methods to acheive its agenda …” I would add FASCIST in front of “agenda”. The REPs and DEMs think they have it all wrapped up. I feel held hostage (big time) by the REPs and the DEMs.
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Lloyd, to each their own. I’ve always found this to be a good working definition as it is practiced today:
http://www.globalissues.org/article/39/a-primer-on-neoliberalism
“Neoliberalism, in theory, is essentially about making trade between nations easier. It is about freer movement of goods, resources and enterprises in a bid to always find cheaper resources, to maximize profits and efficiency.
To help accomplish this, neoliberalism requires the removal of various controls deemed as barriers to free trade, such as:
Tariffs
Regulations
Certain standards, laws, legislation and regulatory measures
Restrictions on capital flows and investment
The goal is to be able to to allow the free market to naturally balance itself via the pressures of market demands; a key to successful market-based economies.
As summarized from What is “Neo-Liberalism”? A brief definition for activists by Elizabeth Martinez and Arnoldo Garcia from Corporate Watch, the main points of neoliberalism includes:
The rule of the market — freedom for capital, goods and services, where the market is self-regulating allowing the “trickle down” notion of wealth distribution. It also includes the deunionizing of labor forces and removals of any impediments to capital mobility, such as regulations. The freedom is from the state, or government.
Reducing public expenditure for social services, such as health and education, by the government
Deregulation, to allow market forces to act as a self-regulating mechanism
Privatization of public enterprise (things from water to even the internet)
Changing perceptions of public and community good to individualism and individual responsibility.”
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To simplify, a return to the wild west with vigilante mobs enforcing whatever rules anyone wants to enforce with a one minute trial where there is no judge, jury or lawyers and then you hang the accused to expedite justice by mob rule—-What the KKK did in the South for decades.
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Chiara, the article in Harpers is a must read. Thank you for linking us to it.
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Here’s some neoliberalism at work in the Chicago schools, and one public parent giving a speech calling out those behind it.
It’s a great video that shows the double standard they have: what kind of education that the wealthy elite think their own kids deserve—everything and then some,— compared what they think the children of the middle and working classes deserve—just enough education to function as a working drone.
First of all, Chicago doesn’t have an
elected school board. What they DO
have is akin to a rubber-stamp
phony parliament or legislature in a
Third World dictatorship—one
appointed by the Mayor without
any input from citizens.
It’s made up of business leaders with ZERO
background in education as teachers
or administrators, or anything. They
actually funnel ed money out of
education into TIF funds, which are
then used to subsidize the building of
high-rise hotels constructed by some
companies owned by someone on
the board—i.e. former Chicago
Schools Board Member and Hyatt
Hotels executive Penny Pritzker.
It’s so corrupt it staggers the imagination.
Check out parent activist Matt Farmer
calling out then Board Member Penny
Pritzker for her hypocrisy in gutting the arts,
phys. ed., libraries, etc. from the
traditional public schools, while
simultaneously raising millions for a
new library and other facilities
at the Chicago Lab School where
her own children attend.
He begins by quoting from an
interview where Pritzker states that
that the traditional public schools—
where her kids do not attend, but
the children of middle and working
class kids do—are only responsible
for providing the bare minimum
required to perform at low level
jobs in the workforce… and no critical
thinking education, God forbid!…
and that’s all that Pritzker believes
that the children of the middle and
working classes “are entitled to.”
Matt then brings the facts, and
brings the fire. Since Matt is
a lawyer (and journalist), he
“cross-examines” Pritzker in
abstentia. In the process, he
delivers one of the greatest
speeches against so-called
“corporate reform” and
privatization ever given.
It’s a classic:
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Chris I am in same boat & admire your decision. I stopped buying clothes & accessories there some years back. Our book club gets our monthly selections from a family-owned town book store. I’ve found small online retailers for routine repeat purchases of household goods. Classical CD’s from arkivmusic: costs a few bucks more but my way of ensuring arkiv is there for the hard-to-find stuff.
I’m still connected to them for my vice, Scandinavian mysteries. But over the years husband & I are finding that when you have a special interest, you can soon peel off to the online version of a local store, e.g., etsy to find individual artisan boutiques, ebay for individuals selling a few collectibles.
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Jeff Bezos’s Other Endeavor: Charter Schools, Neoliberal Education Reforms
http://www.thenation.com/article/jeff-bezoss-other-endeavor-charter-schools-neoliberal-education-reforms/
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Wow well I guess I will order far less from Amazon. I think these employees need to start turning the tables on their corporate masters and send back emails about “random acts of kindness.” This can be stopped but employees have to realize they do have power. If someone sent me an email after 12 midnight and wondered why I didn’t respond I would simply say I was sleeping and what were you doing? Tomorrow I start back at school and our principal is going to ask teachers to do something that is in violation of our contract. I will politely tell him no. I know that Amazon workers do not have a contract but they still need to push back with extreme politeness to make these fools look like the degenerates they are.
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Love it Barbara, random acts of kindness ad infinitum. As the saying goes:”Kill them with kindness.”
I’m a bibliophile and have spent a great deal of my personal funds for books for my students and myself. I am dismayed to hear that yet again big business is being run like the Rectal Probe Factory where Tom Hanks’s character worked in Joe Versus the Volcano.
Where is the good? Where are people of character? Why is this the new normal?
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My eldest son works for a large “data driven” tech company and he makes fun of the insistence that this is some new and innovative workplace model. They drive their employees really hard, measure output constantly, and the heck with the cost to the employees. Employers have been doing that since his great grandfather was pulling coal out of a mine in Scranton, Pennsylvania.
It’s not just him. A lot of his co-workers are very clear-eyed about this industry and brutal practices within the industry. They don’t romanticize this stuff at all, which I found really heartening.
Maybe they really will change the world 🙂
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I am also descended from Scranton coal miners originally from Wales. My grandmother was born in Miner’s Mill, PA.
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I was glad they question the narrative because these companies have been portrayed as just the best thing ever. To listen to Tom Friedman and Arne Duncan this is the holy grail we should all be shooting for. Maybe they aren’t as impressed because they grew up with it.
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Mayfield/Jermyn area of NE PA mining for one branch of my family.
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I almost went to work for Amazon after I left the Navy. After reading that story, I’m kind of sorry I didn’t choose Amazon!
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Virginia, you would have been a champion at Amazon.
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As long as Virginia doesn’t have infants, children, or anyone in the family suffering from a medical condition and ignores other family situations he/she would be a hero at Amazon. btw Virginia with all the turnover, you should apply.
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vsgp, Funny. I’ve been in those places. Even the best last only a few years. I lasted as one of the longest, but it took a heavy toll mentally and physically and I was (am?) no weakling. Those at the top reap the rewards by basically sitting on their tails while everyone else chases meager stock options and does the work. If you are not in at the ground floor, forget it. The trouble is the pace is so brutal and inhuman, few ever vest the options. It is not the merit-based, survivalist fantasy you are hoping for. The system is rigged. Think instead of pit bulls in a dog fight were even the strongest eventually succumb to their wounds while the dog owners reap the profits without ever stepping in the ring.
But give it a try and let us know how it goes.
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There’s still time.
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Not to sound snarky, but last time I checked, Amazon.com wasn’t the only employer in the world, and once this gets publicized perhaps it won’t be able to hire anyone. Why work in such a hostile place? Do their employees have specialized degrees in working at Amazon.com? I don’t get it.
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It’s aiming to be the only employer in the world.
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I think they would prefer their employees to be drones, literally the type you power up and don’t have to pay.
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These are highly-driven Type A personalities who feel they must succeed even if it means working 24/7 with no sleep. Somehow it’s built into their psyche. If they researched the company first, they may not have entered into their employment. But the best part of this article was the nickname given to former employees who think they can take this divisive concept to their new jobs….They are called Amholes.
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McGrew and our progressive mayor could have that company pared down to mere shell of its former self in just a year or two with a new labor contract, new benefits, etc. Of course there would also be 25,000 unemployed once fully implemented. They are growing dramatically and adding employees at a rapid pace, paying a decent wage with opportunities to make much more. No it’s not for everyone, but so what. Get a life. No everyone wants or needs the cocoon of a progressive policy and union negotiations.
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You get a life. Not everyone is a selfish livertarian whose only concern is their own bank account and propoerty. That coccoon you snear at was the result of the blood of my ancestors who died in WV coal mines working 7 days a week under unsafe conditions and getting paid in company scrip to slend inthe company store. Most died before they turned 40.
You go ahead and have your fantasy world without the 5 day work week, paid benefits, living wages, vacations, days off, lunch, overtime, sick days, OSHA, NLRB, and all the other thigns that union members whom you aren’t fit to even name won with their blood, sweat, and tears.
Your philosophy of settling for the least you can get while conforming and cowering and tugging your forelock to money disgusts me.
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Chris,
Do you mean “a selfish lily-liveredtarian”??
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That works Duane! LOL Typing on an iPad with old eyes produces some interesting spelling. I try to edit but miss things. Can’t see as well as I used to but some Malapropisms are funny and apropos.
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I think people like you have destroyed any choice for progressive policy and unions.
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Bezos, even more than most CEOs, jettisons all human warmth in the name of efficiency. Suddenly it struck me: the reason “poor” nations are usually considered friendlier places to visit than “rich” nations is that it takes work to produce friendliness, and in these places such work is valued and allowed to take place. Thus Haiti and Cameroon and Ireland are very productive places –it’s just that their produce is invisible to Wall Street and sociopaths like Bezos. Similarly, good teachers produce a lot that’s invisible to Pearson psychometrcians and psychopaths like Cuomo.
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TAGO!
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Getting to know people, making and maintaining friendships, being considerate, raising kids, caring for parents, mowing your yard, taking part in democracy, building community –all of this demands time and effort. Thus the good life depends on ample off-the-clock time. By hogging all our time, companies like Amazon require these aspects of life to fall into disrepair and ruin. They colonize our brains 24/7 and rob us of our own inner-lives. Stalinist regimes are called totalitarian because they seek total control of citizens’ lives and minds. The corporate regimes we live under are becoming more totalizing. KIPP and Success Academy commit similar time- and soul-robbery. Condemn me as lazy for wanting a 40 hour week? Well, it’s largely because I want to do other kinds of work.
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Amazon has enjoyed a tax free existence that was a huge competitive advantage. But that is changing as more states collect the sales tax or Amazon expands warehouses locally into taxing districts to shorten delivery times. Without tax free, shipping costs have a significant impact on price. I’ve noticed big box retailers beginning to match price and product more often. Plus, the cheap sellers from China on Amazon that take weeks to ship seem more prevalent. Unless Prime and drones are enough, Amazon could be a bubble ready to burst.
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It is not just Amazon. The Nation or perhaps it was Mother Jones but a woman reporter took a job with one of the delivery services. She did not identify the one but their time was kept track of so bad that in the delivery vans, the drivers sat on the seat belts to save a few seconds of time. That instead of putting them on. People working on the assembly lines were timed to the second etc etc. No toilet breaks for long periods of time etc etc.
Yes people have been relegated to peon status from the beginning of “civilization but we have not been subjected to that degree since unions were formed and utilized. With the demise of unions and the middle class we can expect more of the same.
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It was Mother Jones. Complicating the picture: a friend of a friend works at an Amazon warehouse near SF and loves it.
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It’s all about metrics these days.
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It is definitely more than Amazon. I just saw this post from shared by a friend who is a physician… In skimming through the article, I felt that “teacher” could have been substituted throughout for “physician”… http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2014/09/hospitals-discourage-doctors-step-step-guide.html
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“purposeful Darwinism,” This is a hot new description of business practices, goes with “disruptive innovation”
If you read this Diane, I finally constructed a reply to Josh Weinstein and posted it. Sorry it is so long but I think it does the job. The letter to the President of the World Bank is pretty amazing.
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Amazon has one big Achilles heel – the company makes very little profit. The whole mindset is to pump up the value of the stock, not to make a profit. The company buys/buys back its own stock to pump up the price. This is called “financial engineering”. It is the SOP of many huge companies today. Of course, this keeps Bezos happy and brings him more billions. But the result is a huge bubble.
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You’re right – for a company with a large revenue stream and expanding
market share, they have very little in earnings to show for it all. It’s been that
way for quite some time and buybacks are sometimes simply a way to
mollify investor concerns.
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Yes, Amazon isn’t primarily a retailer. From the start, its retail business has existed to provide collateral for Wall Street schemes. A model corporation!
No wonder its employees are disposable and managed by mutual cruelty and secret denunciation.
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This rebuttal to the Times exposé makes for some interesting reading: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/amazonians-response-inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-nick-ciubotariu
A person could get whiplash tracking this community’s opinion of the New York Times: one day they are feckless shills pushing a corporatist agenda, the next they are unsullied freedom warriors taking down an evil empire. An evil empire that happens to own a rival newspaper and be the bitter sworn enemy of Apple, Google, and many New York-based traditional media and publishing companies.
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Tim, you slay me. Amazon’s Head of Infrastructure Development writes a ‘rebuttal’ on a business social media site and you tout it as anything but PR spin? The dude’s job is to create the crap the NYT reported on and you think that refutes it? If so you are vulnerable and easily led. Wanna buy a bridge in Brooklyn?
And how does commenting on a reporter’s article about Amazon’s business practices based upon interviews with former and current employees have anything to do with the paper’s editorial bias toward CCSS and reformist practices? Several commenters noted that Bezos is in agreement with the NYT on school reform.
Are you arguing that the NYT is biased against Amazon and made this stuff up? Maybe they are and maybe they did! Prove it by some other means than quoting a high level employee of Amazon whose job it is to create the atmosphere criticized in the article, as we have proven and done over and over with the CCSS and the NYT.
Here’s a bit of advice. Study the word ‘nuance’ and learn that the world is not revolving in black and white dualtities and dichotomies, That is childish, primitive thinking. The NYT can do and be more than one thing at the same time! So can Amazon! So can this community! Why that is bothersome to you is strange and worrisome.
And the ‘you people’ argument? Besides indicating a total lack of human empathy it is offensive in any context. Your smug assurance of superior thinking skills is overblown by several degrees, my friend, as you prove over and over again in your comments here.
Trying to offend and harm isn’t healthy. Try another approach sometime. There are comments that you have made here that are cogent and add something to the discussion. More often than not though they just poke a stick at whoever disagrees with you. I think you can do better.
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Just so you know, Tim, some information in that article is known to be just factually wrong, ignorant of the facts, or deliberately misleading. Bezos and other Amazon spokesmen have contradicted Ciubotariu’s claim that Amazon doesn’t have an annual culling, for instance.
But I do agree about the whiplash point.
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Ah, another ‘those people’ commenter, superior in every way. Welcome Mary Pop . . . err “TheMorrigan”
You’ll have to do much better disdainful rejection than that though to live up to your name’s sake. . . .
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I’m going to go against the majority here. I think these “high achievers” like the environment at Amazon. Those that don’t burn out and/or get out. Lots of people have their identity and their self worth tied up in their jobs and they’ll tolerate this to be a part of the cool kids club.
And on another note, have any of you ever met an altruistic publicly traded company? No way a public company can do this. See link below.
http://consumerist.com/2015/08/14/chick-fil-a-franchise-owner-pays-employees-during-5-month-renovation/
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FYI.. Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 19:01:42 +0000 To: lgartz3963@hotmail.com
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I suspected this. Add to that Amazon’s predatory and unfair marketplace practices, paying no sales tax, having few retail overheads of conventional stores, plus pressuring state legislatures and executives in numerous ways to keep the playing field tilted in their favor and against small stores and you have a prescription for tyrannical monopoly. It will be claimed that the consumer benefits from lower prices and ease of accessibility.
I would hazard that it is worth a few extra dollars to keep local bookstores and other stores alive, support good-paying jobs with benefits, reduce the outsourcing of jobs and maintain the diversity that is needed. But try telling that to the consumers.
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Hope McLuhan was right. When one thing get extended or emphasized, something else is brought back (retrieved).
Data mania and cut-throat competition may bring back an appreciation and realization of need for humanistic practices and evolved thinking.
The Global Village
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May be happening as we speak.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeanders/2015/07/29/liberal-arts-degree-tech/
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I Read the article in the Times. Describing the Amazon white collar work place as a modern “Metropolis” is right on. I couldn’t help but think of a more nefarious comparison too: “Arbeit macht frei.”
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Now people may start to remember why unions were formed? Companies like this turn their employees against unions, but pretty soon a discrimination lawsuit will raise its head because with Amazon one good idea will not garner any respect in the long run. Just make sure you don’t go on vacation, spend any quality time with your family, have a baby, get sick, or suffer a personal loss and be available to answer emails and texts in the wee hours of the morning and you may, just may, keep your job.
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I had no idea, but will think twice before shopping Amazon. I didn’t know some place as bad a working for DPS.
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