David Berliner, distinguished educational researcher, has assembled the facts about the powerful influence of poverty and inequality on students. Until now, the linked article has been behind a paywall. It is now available to all.
Here is the background for the article:
This paper arises out of frustration with the results of school reforms carried out over the past few decades. These efforts have failed. They need to be abandoned. In their place must come recognition that income inequality causes many social problems, including problems associated with education. Sadly, compared to all other wealthy nations, the USA has the largest income gap between its wealthy and its poor citizens. Correlates associated with the size of the income gap in various nations are well described in Wilkinson & Pickett (2010), whose work is cited throughout this article. They make it clear that the bigger the income gap in a nation or a state, the greater the social problems a nation or a state will encounter. Thus it is argued that the design of better economic and social policies can do more to improve our schools than continued work on educational policy independent of such concerns.
He writes:
What does it take to get politicians and the general public to abandon misleading ideas, such as, “Anyone who tries can pull themselves up by the bootstraps,” or that “Teachers are the most important factor in determining the achievement of our youth”? Many ordinary citizens and politicians believe these statements to be true, even though life and research informs us that such statements are usually not true.
Certainly people do pull themselves up by their bootstraps and teachers really do turn around the lives of some of their students, but these are more often exceptions, and not usually the rule. Similarly, while there are many overweight, hard-drinking, cigarette-smoking senior citizens, no one seriously uses these exceptions to the rule to suggest that it is perfectly all right to eat, drink, and smoke as much as one wants. Public policies about eating, drinking, and smoking are made on the basis of the general case, not the exceptions to those cases. This is not so in education.
For reasons that are hard to fathom, too many people believe that in education the exceptions are the rule. Presidents and politicians of both parties are quick to point out the wonderful but occasional story of a child’s rise from poverty to success and riches. They also often proudly recite the heroic, remarkable, but occasional impact of a teacher or a school on a child. These stories of triumph by individuals who were born poor, or success by educators who changed the lives of their students, are widely believed narratives about our land and people, celebrated in the press, on television, and in the movies. But in fact, these are simply myths that help us feel good to be American. These stories of success reflect real events, and thus they are certainly worth studying and celebrating so we might learn more about how they occur (cf. Casanova, 2010). But the general case is that poor people stay poor and that teachers and schools serving impoverished youth do not often succeed in changing the life chances for their students.
America’s dirty little secret is that a large majority of poor kids attending schools that serve the poor are not going to have successful lives. Reality is not nearly as comforting as myth. Reality does not make us feel good. But the facts are clear. Most children born into the lower social classes will not make it out of that class, even when exposed to heroic educators. A simple statistic illustrates this point: In an age where college degrees are important for determining success in life, only 9% of low-income children will obtain those degrees (Bailey & Dynarski, 2011). And that discouraging figure is based on data from before the recent recession that has hurt family income and resulted in large increases in college tuition. Thus, the current rate of college completion by low-income students is probably lower than suggested by those data. Powerful social forces exist to constrain the lives led by the poor, and our nation pays an enormous price for not trying harder to ameliorate these conditions.
Because of our tendency to expect individuals to overcome their own handicaps, and teachers to save the poor from stressful lives, we design social policies that are sure to fail since they are not based on reality. Our patently false ideas about the origins of success have become drivers of national educational policies. This ensures that our nation spends time and money on improvement programs that do not work consistently enough for most children and their families, while simultaneously wasting the good will of the public (Timar & Maxwell-Jolly, 2012). In the current policy environment we often end up alienating the youth and families we most want to help, while simultaneously burdening teachers with demands for success that are beyond their capabilities.
Berliner then proceeds to eviscerate the assumptions and theories that undergird the failed policies of No Child Left Behind and Race to the Top. Most politicians share these failed ideas and support these failed policies. Berliner brings research and knowledge to the issue and shows that there is no debate. On one hand is reality, based in research and experience; on the other is ideology backed by money and power.
The conclusion: The so-called “reformers” are hurting children. They are undermining American public education. They are ruining education. They should inform themselves and work to eliminate the sources of inequality and poverty and poor academic performance.

I would love a link the Berliner paper. Can you provide it?
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CWH: Here is the correct link: http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?ContentId=16889
My bad.
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I think the link is to a different article about Arne Duncan. Curious to read the Berliner article.
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Here you go, Virginiasgp: http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?ContentId=16889
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Doesnt link to Berliner? Links to Duncan article-
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Dottie,
The article will be reported with the correct link: http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?ContentId=16889
I will have to fire my assistant (but that’s me!)
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Diane, The link provided is to a different article, not an article by Berliner..
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http://www.schoolsmatter.info/2012/10/david-berliner-on-inequality-poverty.html
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Teacher Ed,
Here is the correct link: http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?ContentId=16889
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Amen!
One hopes that pieces like this will help people understand both the challenges that low-income students and educators face. Important, yet extremely difficult work (both teaching high-needs kids, and teaching the population that it’s not simply a matter of “we just need to work harder.”)
It’s time for a real discussion on these matters, as you (and countless others) have been saying for a long time.
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Is this the correct link? It keeps bringing me to a story on Duncan and his children.
David Hursh, PhD Professor Teaching and Curriculum Warner Graduate School of Education and Human Development 452 LeChase Hall RC Box 270425 University of Rochester Rochester, NY 14627-0425 Phone: 585.275.3947 Fax: 585.486.1159 Mobile: 585.406.1258 E-mail: dhursh@warner.rochester.edu https://www.warner.rochester.edu/facultystaff/hursh Associate Region Editor- Americas- Journal of Education Policy. Associate Editor- Policy Futures in Education
From: Diane Ravitch’s blog <comment-reply@wordpress.com> Reply-To: Diane Ravitch’s blog <comment+p6kq961q1cio8b2qg3li32qm@comment.wordpress.com> Date: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 at 9:02 AM To: Hursh David <dhursh@warner.rochester.edu> Subject: [New post] David Berliner: Why Poverty and Inequality Matter More than Schools and Teachers
dianeravitch posted: “David Berliner, distinguished educational researcher, has assembled the facts about the powerful influence of poverty and inequality on students. Until now, the linked article has been behind a paywall. It is now available to all. Here is the bac”
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DAVID HURSH,
MY ERROR: CORRECT LINK: http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?ContentId=16889
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Will The 74 include this important article about education?
How will Chalkbeat describe it, couch it, critique it?
Should start a blog How the Deformer Deform Themselves or How You Know You’re a Real Deformer.
Better yet, compare what the deformers say to what truly randomly selected kids from the actual 74 million say.
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I agree with this author. At some point the public has to take off the blinders and see the systemic inequalities are keeping our students from succeeding. The idealogy that the system spews out is merely to maintain the position of the 1 per centers and screw the masses. Unfortunately, the masses believe this idealogy and it’s hurting them.
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How the Deformers Deform Themselves
How the Deformers Give Themselves Away
How WE Know You’re a Real Deformer
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Could you repost the link to the Berliner article, please? The link provided does not lead to the article. Thanks.
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http://www.schoolsmatter.info/2012/10/david-berliner-on-inequality-poverty.html
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HERE IS THE CORRECT LINK TO BERLINER ARTICLE: http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?ContentId=16889
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http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?ContentId=16889
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Berliner has been astutely correct in his writings for decades now. Were he to have a national audience that would actually listen. Thanks for posting this one Diane! All should read the article itself.
“. . . we design social policies that are sure to fail since they are not based on reality.”
It would be better said that the policies are sure to fail because they are based on a false take on/reading of reality. The edudeformers’ and privateers’ reality based in false accounts and/or ideologies (many stemming from business/economic discourse) of the teaching and learning processes blinds them to many other valid/true viewpoints/realities. Whether by choice or mental blindness these folks refuse to comprehend that fact.
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It’s all about creating “alternative” (virtual) realities that sound enticing and even plausible to people.
This is precisely why it is a very bad idea to “debate” such people. They are not constrained by reality and can (and do) adjust the ‘facts” and even terminology to fit their own private Idaho.
“Divorced from Reality”
I never married reality
So can not be divorced
Reality is not for me
And sure can’t be enforced!
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Another goodun, thanks SDP!
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Let’s see how many have thrown in the towel because they lost a few debates. I recall Duane from another blog. Must be nice to compete down in the Little Leagues where you just say “I’m done” and go home, eh?
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Virginiasgp, no one lost a debate with you. They just got tired of responding to your repetitions.
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Yes, repetitions and lack of response to questions. Still looking for the answer to how many other countries, and which ones, use VAM?
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virginiasgp,
You recall me but I don’t recall you from another blog, Diane’s blog is the only place I remember responding to you, but hey, maybe I’m having a second half century of life moment and not remembering. Please fill in the details of where I supposedly “threw in the towel”.
So let me ask, if I may virginiasgp, are you a guy, gal, or neither? (not that it matters, I just like to know how to address you properly) Do you teach? If so, what grades/subjects, private or public schools? For how long? What is your legal name?
I have given mine. I have stated many times where I live, what my email is, my phone number a couple of times, my connection to public education. I’ve nothing to hide from you as your brief sojourn here means very little to me, just enough to have me write this response to your bullshit post about me.
I can handle myself openly and candidly, can you?
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Duane Swacker I believe we crossed paths on Carol Burris’ blog. She was trying to withhold my comments after taking a swipe at me (other comments were going through). But when I noted on WaPo that I had a screenshot of the “moderated” comment withheld for a week, she suddenly relented.
You can see my name in this WaPo article. I am advocating transparency in the Commonwealth of Virginia. Our next court date is July 31 in Richmond. Are you free? Care to watch the arguments?
Or you can find my information on this complaint against my local school board chairman. He is the right hand man to Dennis Bakke of Imagine Schools, Inc. You know him from here. My chairman, Hornberger, advocates charter schools in Loudoun but doesn’t think he ever has to disclose his conflicts of interests (that’s not quite kosher with the law). You can read Diane’s other post on Arne Duncan to get more details (see my posts on Hornberger).
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Okay, Brian, have you made all of your prior work evaluations available for the public to examine?
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If what you allege is true, I certainly agree with your course of action. I’m not sure what that has to do with what was being discussed, though.
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Not that I expect any answers from you vsgp. We’ve seen your type and you all don’t last very long here. I haven’t said it yet but when I respond to you with a “basta contigo”, that will be the last thought that you will get from me.
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I would like to know how much better our urban students would do if we funded the schools more equitably so they had resources and smaller classes. I would like to know how much better poor, minority students would do if they were integrated into middle class schools. I know the second suggestion works because I worked with poor ELLs in a middle class school district, and many of our African American and ELLs attended college. The way we fund schools sends a message to our poor urban students that they are not worthy of anything better. We can do better, and we must do better.
Charters are another example of short changing poor. Even the Success Academies that get better results only do so by gaming the system. Their model is not a viable solution for urban education; they are an artificial distraction. It cannot be replicated on a large scale and get the same results. The cheap charters are another exploitative scheme designed to bust unions and disrupt poor students’ lives, not improve outcomes for poor, urban students. We are not solving anything by leaving the neediest in impoverished public schools. We need real solutions, not politicized agendas.
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The link isn’t right on this one. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ALL YOU DO!!!
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When I was in graduate school at Ohio State, renowned educator Edgar Dale asked this question in his first class:
What is education?
He went on to explain that education is both formal (school) and informal (home, out of school) and both are powerful.
One reason we don’t see too much, if any, progress in education is due to the fact that we focus on the “formal” and forget the more powerful “informal.”
Right now my eleven-year-old grandson is in Italy with his father. He is visiting many places and experiencing all kinds of things. Is there anyone who does not count this as part of his “education?” Is there anyone who thinks this knowledge will not show up on a standardized test?
In the age of computers, we are now capable of giving the poor kid a virtual trip to Italy. But first we must acknowledge the need to do so.
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The wealthy have always sent their children abroad to learn about another culture and language. I personally dragged my children to Europe three times during “winter break” (because the deals were affordable, and we had common time off) to give them the experience.
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Or you could do the patriotic thing and sign your kids up to serve in the military to see the world. Oh well, I’m guessing the teachers on here probably think that’s just feeding into the military industrial complex and that’s “evil”.
Rather funny how everyone thinks standardized testing over here is evil. Outside this nation’s walls, it’s taken as a given that testing measures achievement gains. Only in America will soccer moms fight to defend their child’s self-esteem by undermining an objective test. Rather silly when you think about it.
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Virginiasgp, you pretend to know more than us benighted educators about education.
Did you know that no top performing nation in the world tests every child every year? Why don’t you convince them to copy our folly?
How can you explain the fact that we became the most powerful, creative and productive nation in the world before NCLB, VAM and your hero Arne?
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Ok, Diane, I did grow up in South Carolina so sometimes I talk a little slow and think slowly too. But help me out here. You are complaining about having only 16 test scores to use for VAMs in New York. Then you cite a statement from the Board of Assessment that talks about not using a single class worth of data. And then you go off and make some crazy statement like you want even fewer scores to use for analysis? Call me paranoid but I just might think you are trying to sabotage the whole process! Next thing I know, you’ll be calling for kids who have no idea about what’s going on to just walk out of their tests. Me thinks you want less objectivity and no accountability.
How did we become the greatest nation in the history of the world? Easy. It’s called capitalism and it’s the greatest weapon against poverty ever devised. It’s pulled 600M+ out of poverty since 1989 in a single country!
I must admit we had some help from some really smart immigrants too:
– this one came before the war
– this one came after the war
– This one founded Sun Microsystems
– This one helped found the greatest information system known ot man (and the greatest ad machine as well). They might so dramatically transform driving that they will virtually lengthen the day by up to 2 hours!
– Here’s a few more
– 40% of the largest firms were founded by immigrant
But alas, that is a’changing. China now produces more patents than the US (for several years now). Our universities are stocked with foreign-born students (great to have them here but we could compete too if our K-12 was better). Did Wellesley have any foreign-born students? I know my small tech school down the road was chock full of them. And as I recall, they were always at the top of the rankings. If they ever realize that there is a more fertile ground for capitalism, we are in trouble. My classmate emigrated here when he was about 13. Several years after college, he wandered back over to Shanghai because the venture capital business was more promising over there. Hmmm.
Btw, my personal hero is Michelle Rhee. While I respect the civil tone of Arne and Joel Kline, there was nothing like watching Michelle on TV telling principals they would have to perform or else the students would get a principal who would. A principal that that those students deserved! Wasn’t sure I could find this video but it is very inspirational, don’t you think? Now I realize that many teachers out there must be fuming right about now. How dare someone actually take the side of students over a tenured educator?! How dare someone not demand 100.0000% reliability before removing them from a critical position in the life of our students. I’m sure if there was a 94% chance that a teacher/principal was ineffective (just outside the statistically significant range), you all would back the teacher 100%. To heck with that student’s life. But that’s the difference between Arne, Michelle, Joel, and Bill. They actually give 2 cents about the students. Others simply don’t. At least not when it interferes when their total devotion to teachers unions.
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The basis of this reply seems to be the irrational thought that test scores somehow are indicators of the ability to become the best in your profession. Or that one nation is doing better because they show better test scores. This is blatantly false
Of course fewer tests would give less information, however, the real question is what kind of information are they giving. The ability memorize and puke out an answer rather than using critical thinking to develop a project is of no consequence. Nor is this a sporting event that someone wins or loses. I would think China advances has more to do with cheaper pay scales and child labor more than it does there antiquated school system.
If you want real information and real accountability the issue doesn’t become the test but becomes assessment, 1st class assessment. If China wants to treat their students like the Stepford kids and strip them of every ounce of humanity than so be it.
If you want more innovative thinking in this country, than it is time to empower students, not take it away from them. It’s time to bring innovation, meaning the ability to seek out the best way for individual students to learn. And that takes a whole new system of education. Not one where kids think of themselves as objects, but one where they see themselves subjects that can actually do something rather than bubble in something.
I strongly support accountability but not the farce that exists today.Try this http://savingstudents-caplee.blogspot.com/2013/12/accountability-with-honor-and-yes-we.html
So rather than spew out cheap political rhetoric I suggest you educate yourself and not follow like lemmings to the sea only to drown in a tsunami of word games and math riddles and use that junk to pretend that kind of educational system means anything.
In the words of Dr Angela Dye “Traditional school outcomes as level “B” achievement (the test) can occur in the absence of learning how to work and learn independently; (“A” level whole child learning includes) learning how to synthesize, transfer. and apply knowledge to the world beyond the classroom; learning how to value self as subjects not as objects; and learning how to engage in and share power in democratic spaces”
Those like Rhee who have a narrow scope expect schools to be, in the words of that great Irish philosopher, George Carlin, “Indoctrination centers where children are stripped of their individuality and turned into obedient soul dead conformist members of the American consumer culture.” Sorta like China.
So next time you choose to eat a shit sandwich, look at what it is made of
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To virginiasgp: Many of us on this blog are in fact veteran, one does not join to experience other cultures…the opportunity may be there but one commits to the military for other reasons. As a combat veteran let me say the rush to join in the heat of war is not always patriotic, forcing careful thought before combat is more patriotic. We have no business in Iraq or Afghanistan. I have been there! The people that attacked us on 9/11 were Saudis. We aren’t exactly punishing them are we? As a former intelligence analyst and profiler I think that all we have done is make more enemies for ourselves. I do not encourage anyone to join this misguided venture. My oldest son is now a rehabilitation therapist and prosthetic limb fitter for the V.A. My middle son is a former Coast Guard Rescue Swimmer. Is that patriotic enough for you? You assume too much and you know too little. Your tired tirades on behalf of faulty metrics designed for other purposes are boring. YOUR mind is closed and you filter out only the things you think prove your point despite the overwhelming proof to the contrary. You will not be missed. We engage those that have an open mind, I for one doubt I will respond to you again, it is a waste of time.
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Diane, would you agree with this quote? I think you might be surprised by its author:
“As long as we insist on blaming inequality of academic outcomes on economic inequality, we will pursue policies that end up punishing children whose strengths do not lie in academics. We will continue to tell them that they will be second-class citizens if they don’t get a college degree; to encourage them to accumulate student debt only to drop out or obtain a worthless degree. Worse, we will prevent them from capitalizing on their other gifts of character, grit and the many skills that the SAT doesn’t test.
What we need is an educational system that brings children with all combinations of assets and deficits to adulthood having identified things they enjoy doing and having learned how to do them well. What we need is a society that has valued places for people with all combinations of assets and deficits. Both goals call for completely different agendas than the ones that dominate today’s rhetoric about educational and economic inequality.”
I think there are areas of agreement that have been overlooked
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“Duane, would you agree with this quote? I think you might be surprised by its author:”
No, I’m not surprised by the author, should I be? Why? And I can’t agree or disagree because I don’t have a subscription to the WSJ. Pulling two paragraphs out of an article can greatly distort what the author is saying. Please provide a link that can be read by all.
TIA
Duane
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Duane, that’s the point. If you take him at his word, you would likely agree with the sentiment. If you see his name, you will change your mind not because the argument has changed, but because of your emotional reaction. Everyone on here cannot think logically because they are wrapped up in this cause. This “religion”.
And besides, it was an op-ed so I can’t find it elsewhere. At least not in full.
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Virginiagsp,
Do you mind limiting your comments to no more than 4 a day? You are eating up too much space.
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I’m curious. What does “SGP” stand for?
Is it “Screwed ‘Gaijin’ Planet” fallen into the Virginia Mountain??
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One note I failed to mention above, You do not sign your kid up for the military, they sign themselves up and must do so voluntarily.
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I think this article is remiss without including the influence of IQ on academic achievement. We should encourage kids to maximize their potential, but it is foolish to think that reducing income inequality will “solve” the achievement gap when IQ and income are highly correlated (which one is causal on achievement). Talk about confusing correlation with causation…
Here are a few more articles that might inform the discussion.
1. Articles on a test of fluid intelligence vs academic achievement gains
– http://psychcentral.com/news/2013/12/12/standardized-test-score-may-not-correlate-to-higher-iq/63200.html
– http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2013/12/standard-test-fluid-skills
2. Study on brain stem size, income and test scores (which causes which)
– http://phys.org/news/2015-04-links-brain-anatomy-academic-family.html
3. Lots of links to income/score relationships including those of Berliner
– https://grantwiggins.wordpress.com/2012/12/12/the-odd-correlation-between-ses-and-achievement-why-havent-more-critical-questions-been-asked-a-call-to-action/
4. Does education or IQ generate higher income?
– http://www.bc.edu/content/dam/files/schools/cas_sites/psych/pdf/critique_income_.pdf
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Schools alone will not change outcomes for some poor students. We will always have impaired students and slow learners with layers of problems that will not make them “college ready.” However, we have an obligation to do our best for all of our students. Make no mistake; many poor students are bright, inquisitive and motivated, even if they are behind in academics. I have seen this many times with under prepared ELLs. Given the opportunity and time, many of them will make up for lost time, and some will not be able to overcome the obstacles. Those with less dysfunction at home have the best chance at success. The point is these students must have the right to learn and grow to be productive citizens.
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retired teacher, I think we are in agreement. We want to provide all students with the opportunity to maximize their potential. I think that was Murray’s point. We cannot hold teachers responsible if a student doesn’t have the same talents as his/her peers. But we owe it to him/her to provide a core education and help him/her develop skills that will provide a productive life.
We also agree that bright students from humble beginnings can achieve tremendous success. For great examples, look to places like SE Asia. They test their students at young ages to identify the talented ones. They take students from the rice fields and put them in the best universities to be their leaders of tomorrow.
I’m only suggesting that when many studies show IQ has a greater effect than income on success and results, then it’s critical to acknowledge the elephant in the room. If you can’t change IQ, there is no reason to fixate on it. Focus on what we can change. However, we have to have realistic expectations of all policies and players.
I have no idea what ken watanabe is talking about.
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This man’s mouth is running like water as his head keeps spinning like a wheel of fortune that doesn’t stop. Speaking of a high IQ from promoter of IQ and data. (IQ = Ignorant Quotient.)
Oh well.
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>”when IQ and income are highly correlated (which one is causal on achievement). ”
It’s extremely ludicrous to believe that high IQ will fix the problem with lower income for itself, and hence achievement gap by conveniently ignoring the fact that IQ is also based on the metrics of standardized test. No wonder so many reformsters are seriously affected with VAMpire virus. Rubbish.
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Sounds like you have that google search and cut and paste down pat. Anyone now days can do a google search and cherry pick points they agree with. Honestly, I read you posts and have a hard time understand where you are coming from and seem all over the board at times, posting and re-posting. I understand you want more testing. IQ is not a definitive measure and itself derived from tests. What exactly are you advocating?
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Don’t want more tests, just to use the ones we have to improve schools (actually, the current tests can use a bit of improvement).
As for my objectives, check out and expand the top post on the Facebook page (www.facebook.com/virginiasgp). Here is a direct link. Not too controversial actually. Lot’s more ideas for district administration reform in the prior post on the greatest civil rights leader since the 1960’s: Arne Duncan.
Btw, I post a lot because the folks ask me questions. It would be rather rude not to respond, don’t you think? Plus, it’s no fun to debate in your own fan club.
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Virginiasgp, Arne Duncan is no civil rights leader. Don’t be ridiculous. He carries water for the 1%
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Arne Duncan DOES NOT carry the water for the 1%. He sold me out completely!
He allowed Staples and Holton to get a 4-year waiver with this nonsense. That was after I won my first round in Richmond and received my 5 million SGP records. He basically told me to fight my own battles because he was fighting for the disadvantaged kids. I understand why, but saying he is “carrying water” for the affluent districts is nuts.
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Actually secy D is down to 0% because he forces those who advance faster to remain held back in a singular grade level system of education that is out dated
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Virginiasgp, I read your link. You want to measure teacher effectiveness, I get it. You like VAM. You favor Gates’ approach and cite Chetty.
You probably will ignore my thoughts, but, quite simply, VAM does not work for teachers. In theory, from its manufacturing days, value-add was an approach for things and processes. The application to education is not built on solid ground. Evidence is scarce, if any, supporting VAM as a measure of learning. I can give you my own personal classroom experiences with state mandated VAM if you would listen. When VAM or SLOs or SGPs come into the picture for my students, these ideas look like an alternate reality. It is hard to focus on quadratic equations when your home is friends’ couches or some of the other challenges the kids face..
I also reviewed the Science article. It is a fairly narrow study comparing essay responses to concept maps. It is not peer reviewed in the sense it needs duplicated by an independent researcher. It is not a basis for accepting standardized tests.
But since you like VAM, I’ll pose two questions I cannot answer and neither have any VAM supporters.
1) if I teach a student far below grade level, then raise them several grade levels, yet they still are not high enough to cross the lower threshold of the measurement capabilities of a standardized test, am I an ineffective teacher?
2) If a student scores lower on a standardized post-test than a pre-test, that means the student lost knowledge I never taught them. What does that mean in terms of VAM?
Please answer. I have never received a response from VAM supporters and am genuinely interested in how these contradictions square with VAM theories.
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The imaging studies are interesting, but these are fairly narrow. For a more comprehensive set of factors as well as a more longitudinal approach you may find the following of interest.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3132760/
It is interesting to see the explanatory power of a more holistic measure like class rank vs. a standardized assessment for the important life outcome of survival.
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That “holistic measure” of class rank is neither holistic nor a measure. Again it’s another false mechanism for sorting and separating students. Hell we might as well just do the sorting and separating by height, or weight or eye color. It would be just as valid (in other words COMPLETELY INVALID).
The question that should be asked is: Should public education be a sorting and separating mechanism so that some students are rewarded (scholarships, monetary gifts, acclamations) and others are punished (not allowed to continue their education, be retained in grade levels, not allow to take certain classes that they may want to take and learn about)??????
Class rank is another typical American educational malpractice!
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Wow, Diane, you have some really crazy ones on here today.
I’m proposing a bet for this Duane Swacker. Let’s make it $10K to the charity of each other’s choice. You say that IQ is not real. We’ll identify 10,000 students and include their aptitude scores (CogAT or whatever the school uses). I get to pick 5000 based on that test. You get the rest because according to you, “IQ” is not real. Then, we can have them take a standardized test. Either the PARCC/SBAC or one like the SAT. Or we can measure their change in scores over the course of a year.
Want to take that bet? Come on, show a little courage….
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Duane, I agree with you on how class rank should not be used. We do not use class rank for any of our high school honors and do not report it on our transcripts. The only circumstance where we would report class rank is where it is required for a scholarship or another high stakes decision that offers our student a benefit. A student’s class rank is dependent on the GPA of other students and not solely their own. It is also the case that students take different courses with different teachers at different stages of their high school career so we both know that it is false to pretend that two students with the same GPA have the same accomplishments.
Having said that, I feel that class rank is a more holistic measure than a standardized assessment like IQ (the Henmon-Nelson in this case). I recognize the flaws are abundant and it is a low bar. Even with the limitations, a student’s GPA as an average of teacher determined grades is more representative of the whole student that a simple IQ score.
I recognize that you have great skepticism for the validity of grades and quantitative studies. I am fairly sure that Hauser and Palloni would acknowledge that their analysis is using observable measures to make inferences (not exact descriptions) of concepts that are notional and cannot be specifically measured, but some readers of the study might assume a higher degree of validity.
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Instead of calling Duane crazy, which he is not, VirginiaSGP’s time might be better spent reading the linked paper and considering the extent to which the authors claim the measurement variable of IQ correlates with survival/longevity.
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“but it is foolish to think that reducing income inequality will “solve” the achievement gap when IQ and income are highly correlated (which one is causal on achievement). Talk about confusing correlation with causation…”
What is really foolish is to believe that an IQ score has any meaning at all. It’s another false “measure” that is COMPLETELY INVALID.
Therefore there is nothing there to correlate with or cause differences in incomes.
Can you be honest and just tell us who’s paying you to write this nonsense. Not that I expect you to say, but your comments sure seem like edudeformer (including the Dunkster in that category) babble.
¡Basta contigo!
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I see that Duane Swacker gets to live in NeverNeverLand. You all are fortunate to live in a world where folks believe in science as you clearly do not.
Do you recall this statement published by 52 university professors in the intelligence research fields? Note the word “mainstream” in that statement. While we have learned more about intelligence since them (it can be slightly altered after age 5 and there are various vectors of intelligence), it is the underlying topic on which all these policies must be based.
I don’t understand your fear of acknowledging facts. Liberal progressives should use this as the basis for their rationale to redistribute everything they can get their hands on. If folks have different potentials, why is that fair? It is because of these different potentials that we must be realistic and use VAMs instead of absolute test scores in measuring teacher effectiveness.
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Just because a WSJ opinion piece has been signed by supposed “experts” doesn’t mean that the statement about the supposed validity of IQ testing/assessing is true and holds up to epistemological and ontological scrutiny.
That type of argument, that everyone thinks such and such doesn’t hold any water. All of European thought up to a certain time contended that the sun revolved around the earth and that the earth was flat. Your argument fails simple logic. As my mom used to say “So if everyone jumps off a cliff, you will too??”
Thanks for the information on the lawsuit, but I don’t know what that has to do with the effects of poverty on the teaching and learning process.
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Read up on eugenics, VSGP. You would fit right in with them.
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Thanks Diane—if we all stay on message maybe someone in power will hear us.
best,
David
David C. Berliner
Regents’ Professor Emeritus
120 E. Rio Salado Parkway, Unit 205
Tempe, AZ 85281-9116
Ph: 480-861-0484
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Mr. Berliner, you hit the nail on the head. If only we could move the needle and spend even more on poverty transfer payments (about $1T/year at this point), I’m sure all our problems would fade away.
I’m guessing a few more blog posts and the national agenda on income redistribution will reach a tipping point. Nothing like adding an extra $100B/year to the budget.
Oh, btw, how much does standardized testing (and its related evaluations) cost to implement? Could it be just 0.3% of those transfer payments? Since the cost of testing is about to overshadow our war on poverty, better cut back on testing to make room for a few more peanuts to the masses.
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Virginia, how does standardized testing feed the hungry or heal the sick or provide jobs or housing? As a Jew, I ask you, what would Jesus do? Order up another round of standardized tests?
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Touche, Diane.
But in all seriousness, Prof Hanushek (your good buddy) has shown that improved numeracy skills increase one’s expected income by 25%. I say the quickest way to get those folks out of poverty is to:
1. Publish private sector equivalent pay so we can hire some good STEM majors as teachers
2. Use VAMs to identify the best teachers and put them in math class. Since the variability is greater in math than reading, you get more “bang for the buck” having the best in math class.
What did you have in mind? Another $1T in handouts to get them 1/4 of the way to a minimum threshold?
Thoughts? Or more “what country is VAM used in” retorts?
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Virginiasgp, Hanushek speculates on many things. His theories about test scores increasing GDP are unusually speculative
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This was about numeracy skills, not replacing ineffective teachers this time Diane.
You know, the skills that allow you to project how large our transfer payments must be in order to solve poverty like Mr. Berliner likes to fantasize about.. See, those numeracy skills don’t just help folks in engineering and finance occupations. They can prove useful to “social justice” activists or even help teachers figure out how much they actually earn!
Btw, did you know Step 30 teachers with a doctorate degree earn $130K/year in Loudoun County, Virginia? Top 25% teachers (per VAMs) out there… come on down!!!! We are hiring!
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You’re linking to the Cato Institute and expect to be taken seriously? Go away, troll!
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Dienne, so which would you prefer:
1. USDA discussion on average transfer payment
2. Liberal magazine arguing that all those $1T in transfers worked to reduce poverty
3. Research paper arguing that transfer might very well help counties reduce poverty
All indicate the same thing. Our income transfers are massive but often unaccounted for in the latest hyperbole on poverty.
Why, yes, I’m decent at googling. But the key is being able to actually understand what I read. I’ve noticed that most teachers who discuss VAMs have no idea what the concept entails. Sort of like they really don’t understand the Big Bang (hello inflation), evolution or marginal anything (marginal tax rates).
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Virginiasgp, I think the Board of Testing and Assessment at the National Academy of Sciences knows quite a lot about VAM, even more than you. They warned Duncan that VAM is not reliable or valid for Individual teachers.
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Geez, SPG…
It really makes me wonder what kind of plutocratic alien planet you are coming from.
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Basta con este presuntuoso/a sabelotodo/a.
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Virginiasgp, funny you want to publish private sector pay. Companies guard that information tighter than an NSA building. Because they do not want everyone to see that most people are paid pretty much the same, women are still discriminated against, relatives are overpaid, and office revolts are never a pretty sight. But private sector pay IS available by positions if you dig enough. All we know is teachers aren’t getting rich.
VAM doesn’t identify the best teachers. I do well with math and have a strong STEM background but I’ll take a veteran ELA teacher as a mentor any day. It is good to know math foundations, but it still comes down to teaching. I have no idea what you mean about bang for the buck. I’ve worked with real geniuses and millionaires, and they are impressive people, but they would be terrible teachers.
I think we are at the point we are going in circles. I’m done unless you can answer my prior two questions.
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Ok, Diane has asked that I limit my posts to 4 per day. Given that I already have more than 4 questions by different users, I may not be able to answer all those questions. I’ll try to combine responses into a single post.
Mathvale, you ask about (1) students below grade level. Students fell below grade level because they were “socially promoted” despite not knowing the material (I support this approach). I agree that we must administer tests that show both what they know and don’t know to discover their progress. That means either an adaptive test or a test for a lower grade level. I understand that does not always currently happen but it should. I don’t support only giving a 5th grade student questions on 5th grade material if he reads at the 2nd grade. This will likely be fixed within 2-3 years. (2) If students’ scores drop, that could very well be the natural variability in measuring their scores. The reason we take 40+ scores to make a calculation is because this error exists. When averaged across many scores, the positive errors and negative errors generally cancel out. But yes, it is possible to lose knowledge. If I don’t work with my child on her concepts and leave it just to the school (as I did this year), she scored lower on an independent test in Jun than she did in November. Probably lost knowledge that was not practiced.
It won’t be possible for a student to make large strides if they are homeless. However, the VAM models take SES into account so its projected gains will be small anyway. How much do you think the VAM will project for growth for a homeless kid?
With respect to private sector pay, I’m saying put the equivalent amounts out there. When I was in the Navy, you could find out what I made simply by learning my rank. That’s the nature of public servants. Taxpayers pay the bills and your pay is public. Who in their right minds recruits employees by telling them we pay you $100K when they really pay $130K? That is horrible marketing. Why don’t we simply publish the real numbers. But note that we must measure results to keep the best. I never said a particular “genius” would be a great teacher. I do think if we hire 2x as many as we need and only keep the best (a la sports teams), we will get a better product. Not easy when there are 3 million K-12 teachers though.
Swacker, Those “experts” are the prominent researchers in their field. You can disagree with science, but be careful when belittling those who don’t “believe in global warming” if you also disregard scientific research. Note that most of your allies on this blog not only believe in IQ, but they use it (or other terms for it) to disregard the value of VAMs. Thanks on the lawsuit. Nobody else will stand up and take any action.
I have not made my evaluations public. But the public does not pay my salary. I am not asking for teacher evaluations as a whole (not the observations), just the data. I often give as an example doctors, lawyers, etc. Many have websites that rate them (AVVO). The Mayo clinic does not always have great outcomes but people still trust them. Why? They know Mayo receives the hardest patients and gets amazing results. Parents are not stupid. If these VAMs really mean “nothing”, why not publish them since the opt-out parents won’t believe them anyway?
m4potw, don’t you find it odd that nobody can provide a single number to help reduce poverty? I wonder if anybody has ever tried to calculate that number. “Reducing poverty” without a number is a wish. Put some numbers down and then you might have a goal. Capitalism reduces poverty. Markets that generate demand for product and provide jobs are what increase standards of living. Carlos Slim was once asked why he didn’t give away more of his money. He had an interesting response. He basically said creating jobs by investing his capital has a greater positive effect that giving money to charities. Not sure I always agree but nobody can deny capitalism has ended most of the poverty that existed in China prior to 1979. Literally 100’s of millions lifted up not by socialist handouts, but by free-market capitalism.
Threatened Out West, I do not support eugenics in any way. It was the liberal progressives who supported eugenics (George Bernanrd Shaw, President Woodrow Wilson, Theodore Roosevelt, Keynes, Oliver Wendell Homes). Folks should be free to live their lives but we need to take into consideration natural talent (whether in sports or academics) when we set realistic expectations.
Cap Lee, nobody has answered my question on 1 x 2 x 3 x… And nobody has indicated they could solve the Singaporean math question. Are these not testing ‘critical thinking’ skills? Does the LSAT not measure logical reasoning?
Old Teacher, thank you for your service and that of your children. I’m sorry you feel it is not worthwhile, While the infantry is a critical component of the forces, the Navy and Air Force also need talented folks and provide more opportunities to travel. There are many reasons to sign up for the service. The Navy would tell you that they need talented folks to run their high-tech equipment (planes, subs, reactors, etc.) and it’s not dishonorable to choose a high-tech job rather than being on the front lines.
As for Rhee’s promises (or that of any reformer), I think they get carried away. I’m not sure how one can promise absolute improvement without knowing the aptitude of the students. However, I don’t think anyone would dispute there was room for improvement. DC stood a great chance because they (1) published their increased pay scales thus allowing them to recruit more teachers and (2) used VAMs to identify the effectiveness of teachers. But I always use DC as a comparison against my county of Loudoun located 40 miles away. If we swapped teachers (Loudoun to DC), would the scores of the districts change? Is it the teachers in Loudoun causing higher test scores or the students? For the most part, it’s the students and their parents. Great teachers exist in both districts. Ineffective teachers exist i both. The difference within districts (great teacher vs ineffective teachers within DC) are greater than the average effectiveness of teachers between districts. That is why I will always compare the overall growth of a district (median VAM/SGP) to assess the quality of instruction. I would never say that X % of children need to be “proficient” for a district to be deemed “good”.
Lastly, we could have a long debate on the merits of the Middle East wars (if ISIS defeats Syria, how long before they would be running the oil wells outside Riyadh without US intervention?) but it’s not relevant. Diane brought up the subject of the cost of the wars in relation to fighting poverty. I just asked her to have an honest debate and cite the cost of “fighting poverty” so we could compare it to the cost of those wars. Neither Diane nor any other poster has provided even a range of estimates. It’s very telling. That is a sound bite, not a solution.
Ok, answers to questions from six posters. This is my first (of a maximum of four) post of the day.
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virginiasgp, you didn’t answer my questions in relation to VAM. That is the usual response I get from VAMmers – they answer a different question.
Larger samples can eliminate certain errors, but not inherent bias. If the measuring instruments are flawed, the results are invalid. You did not answer my question if that means a teacher is ineffective, even if they raise a student several grade levels.
You also missed the issue on losing knowledge.
As I mentioned, teacher pay is public knowledge already. In our state, the libertarian Buckeye Institute has a public database of teacher pay, though at times inaccurate. Private sector pay can be reasonably obtained by general careers – for example a two year computer degree grosses $50,000 while a teacher’s starting salary is $32,000. Unless a charter, then maybe $20,000.
As far as running education like the military, I come from a military family reaching a line back to the Revolutionary War. My Dad and uncles would roll with laughter at adopting the military model in entirety. Dad had some great stories. Some ideas certainly.
VAM does a poor job adjusting for homelessness when the students put their head down or just fill in bubbles to make a pretty pattern. No mathematical model accounts for that.
I’m done. There is so much more you could learn just being in a classroom for an extended period of time. But I suspect I’m wasting time.
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Wow, Virginia, you must have a lot of time on your hands. “Progressives” and “conservatives” of the time loved eugenics. Your arguments on IQ fit right in with their supposed “science.” You may disagree, but that’s how I see it. The idea that IQ is fixed and immutable and actually worth measuring comes right out of the eugenics playbook.
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Dr Berliner,. Your discussion of the Utah and Chicago preschools was great, except that you failed to mention that these efforts are launched as a financial product–social impact bonds–with a marketing pitch that investors will reap significant returns on investment, at least 5%. These programs have management oversight fees–lawyers, accountants, auditors, external evaluators, and managerial positions. The managers can hire and fire providers– which can override the professional wisdom and TLC of the persons doing the work, in addition to changing a social service into a profit centered enterprise. In each of these cases, designers of the investment product also include a counterfactual, which means students are excluded from the program on purpose. These excluded children and their parents/guardians function as a control group offering proof of the efficacy of the program. Some skimming is also present. Preschoolers are excluded if they have serious disabilities. The premise seems to be that relatively mild learning problems can be diagnosed and treated early enough to assure reading skills in grade 3 at or above grade level. For an example of the reasoning about savings from social impact bonds (also called pay for success) see: https://www.robinhood.org/initiatives/early-childhood
But, your extended analyses with references are a great addition to the cause of making schools better by making communities better.
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I think it is safe to be leery of any “research” conducted by foundations underwritten by hedge funders.
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IMHO, it is truly worth to remind all of us that:
0) From SDP:
“”This is precisely why it is a very bad idea to “debate” such people. They are not constrained by reality and can (and do) adjust the ‘facts” and even terminology to fit their own private Idaho.
“Divorced from Reality”
I never married reality
So can not be divorced
Reality is not for me
And sure can’t be enforced!””
1) From retired teacher:
“”I think it is safe to be leery of any “research” conducted by foundations underwritten by hedge funders.””
2) From Laura H. Chapman:
“”…the cause of making schools better by making communities better.””
3) From Dr. Berliner:
“”But the general case is that poor people stay poor and that teachers and schools serving impoverished youth do not often succeed in changing the life chances for their students.””
4) From Dr. Ravitch:
“”Virginia, how does standardized testing feed the hungry or heal the sick or provide jobs or housing?…””
In conclusion, realistically, compassion will always overcome the righteousness, so does general case that will win over all exceptions. Education , both formal and informal cases, is only powerful and useful if and only if it is in the hand of a compassionately driven by SELF-LESS educators, like Teacher Rafe Esquith and many thousand of other unknown, but valuable and dedicated teachers whose careers are damaged by LAUSD.
In business world, generally speaking there are COUNTLESS cases of intentional mismanagement for individual GREED and GAIN
In educational world, exceptionally speaking, there are MANY MORE cases of compassionately driven teachers who commit their teaching career in order to motivate all students to learn regardless of students’ behaviors or attitude toward learning which is their true joy or just a way of making an earning later in life. Back2basic
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Speaking of greed and personal gain, were you referring to this?
So tell me something. At a spring meeting, I asked the teacher why the school would ask a student to be “retested” on the SOLs. You see, if a student barely fails (375-399), they can now take a single retest to try to raise the score above 400. Only the best of the two scores is counted. The consequences for the student are…. nothing either way. I can show you from a statistical point of view that the retests are unfair to the districts who don’t encourage/force students to take them.
Teachers bemoan the “pressure” testing causes students. If there are no consequences for the student, why should he/she be asked to retake the test? The only possible reason is to benefit the school’s results. But by only asking a few to retake the test, the schools risk identifying the kids who failed the test. In fact, in my daughter’s class, there was only a single kid who failed and had to retake it. Imagine being in that class and learning you were the only one who failed. Do you really think the principal or teacher care one iota about that child’s well being? If only one child failed, do you think the school’s scores are in danger of missing any required thresholds? For purely pride reasons, those “educators” humiliated a child. The real problem is they appear to have violated FERPA. That’s not going to be pretty.
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>If there are no consequences for the student,
There ARE consequences already. All across the OECD nations.
Amazing the high degree of your IQ(Ignorant Quotient).
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Poverty and inequality matter because they are allowed to matter more than they should. The system and philosophy of education was never designed to serve all children and take into consideration the reality that children learn in different ways and at different rates.
As long as we continue to treat the children like the Stepford Kids, we will push them into the streets. When we allow them to progress at their best rate, continuously innovating to assure their success, then and only then will we succeed at educating all children. And that takes reasonable class sizes, reasonable planning time and the ability to innovate, to meet the needs of those left behind.
We may not simply wish kids in need forward, it takes a lot of hard work, support and a love of children that recognizes differences.
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Cap Lee, I take that to mean you support tracking of students?
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Mr. Berliner/Diane/anyone, can you provide me with a ballpark figure of what it would take to significantly reduce poverty in your mind? Are we talking $50B/year, $500B/year, $5T/year? Has anyone performed a CBA (cost benefit analysis) on this to determine how much bang (improved outcomes however you measure it) we get for our buck ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$).
Otherwise, isn’t this all just pie in the sky whining?
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Vieginiasgp,
It would cost far less than the pointless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to reduce poverty dramatically and rebuild our society
Read Bob Herbert’s Losing Our Way
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I am not sure where I got this information, but children who are raised in two parent homes seem to have lower poverty rates. Children who live in poverty with two parents also tend to do better in all aspects of their lives than children raised in single parent homes. I personally know many successful single parents. It’s just what the statistics show.
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Sorry everyone, I can’t help myself. Virginiasgp, see G.F Brandenburg as he examines the goals and claims of your hero Michelle Rhee. She is a fraud and a liar. https://gfbrandenburg.wordpress.com/2014/09/02/did-any-of-michelle-rhees-pro He goes into great detail using Rhee’s own data. See also John Morrow’s early investigation into cheating during Rhee’s tenure in D.C. Student Growth Percentiles are even more specious than most forms of VAM. Dr. Bruce Baker could school you on that, but we know you really do not care, your mind is made up. Eventually history will show you were wrong. I do not know whether to pity you or be angry at you. I will likely just ignore you from now on.
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To Brian/Virginiasgp:
Here a poem for you from this forum blogger who is SomeDamPoet:
“Divorced from Reality”
I never married reality
So can not be divorced
Reality is not for me
And sure can’t be enforced!
Your question is in term of money in order to improve poverty. My answer to you is about compassion and true education for the unfortunate in order to improve human lives. Life is all about GIVING A HELPING HAND in order to improve our general weakness and to strengthen our foundation of humanity.
People, who are in power and in authority and take an advantage of their “”upper-hand”” position in order to bully the population, will face their consequence sooner or later in this life or in their UPCOMING re-incarnation lives.
It is easy to laugh now and cry later for all ignorant people who intentionally harm innocent generations. Back2basic
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For some of us, it’s important and worthwhile to work to help improve things inside and outside of schools. One of the reasons alternative district schools were created 40-45 years ago (and are still being created via programs like the Boston and LA Pilot Schools, and NY New Visions programs, is that many educators believe they can make a positive difference in the lives of youngsters from low income families.
These folks recognize the value of partnering with other groups to help deal with some of the other inequities that unquestionably deserve attention.
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For almost ALL teachers, it’s important and worthwhile to work to help improve things inside and outside of schools.
The people who want the best for children are likely those who care for them at home and school. Many “reformers” have forgotten that.
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An underlying problem in the US is that there is an acceptance of having poor schools to serve poor children. The contrast between public schools in economically diverse schools is shocking. Schools in the wealthy suburbs around Jackson, Mississippi rival those of the private schools with their modern, well-kept campuses, while my school has numerous broken windows and other windows that have never been closed. While teachers in tested subjects have smartboards and wi-fi, other departments have no technology at all, not even working computers for the teachers to use in district-mandated grade management.
In other first-world countries, there are schools that serve poor children, but the schools themselves are not poor. My students have to deal routinely with the inadequacies of being in a district that is increasingly underfunded to the point that there will be a state-wide referendum to mandate minimum funding of an existing law. Perhaps if they were in a school that is safe, sound, and secure, with up-to-date technology in every classroom, we might be able to mitigate the merciless poverty in which their parents are raising them and teach them the skills to avoid inflicting such poverty on their own children.
After 22 years in the same school, now teaching the children of my former students, I have little hope that fairness will ever be a part of the American public educational system.
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First, thanks for your 22 years of work with youngsters. Second, I strongly agree that we should be providing MORE state $ for schools serving a high percentage of low income states. Minnesota is one of the states that does this.
It is a deep shame and stain on this country that many states permit substantially more $/pupil to be spend in affluent suburbs, than on children from low income families.
Perhaps we would be farther along with this around the country if we did not have prominent people arguing that, as Professor Berliner does, that “”the sources of America’s educational problems are outside school, primarily a result of income inequality.”
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David Berliner acknowledges what almost everyone knows, or should know: education is both formal (school) and informal (home, out of school). We also know that informal education has a profound effect on the child and greatly affects his life chances. So if we truly want to help all children have equal access to a quality education, we MUST address both informal and formal education because both count.
Yes, it is shameful that the rich kids get beautiful, well-equipped public schools and the poor kids get “make do.” I believe the courts will soon put an end to this grave injustice but then we are faced with the huge inequalities that exist in homes and out of school. We can’t just ignore this or make excuses for not helping these children. Other advanced countries have reduced the effects of severe poverty for their children and we can too.
Joe, you sound like a nice man who truly cares. Look up the word “education” and embrace the full meaning of the word. If you truly want to improve education for all children, a deeper understanding of the word should expand your goals. It is NOT a synonym for charter schools. To make it even simpler to understand, think of the education of your own children or grandchildren. Does it include read-alouds at home, trips to museums, other states and countries, appointments with specialists for every problem that might hamper learning? Well, all children will benefit from those things.
I’ll agree that some well-run charter schools can improve formal education for some children, but that’s only a part, a very small part, of the challenge we face. To really make a difference for poor children we must find ways to impact both their formal and informal learning experiences. Please join us in this fight.
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Linda, here’s a recent Ed Week blog in which I try to describe a comprehensive education agenda. This includes a variety of efforts: http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/Bridging-Differences/2015/05/whats_are_priorities_for_a_pro.html
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Joe, if you want all those things, as I do, then surely you must know that most “sources of America’s educational problems are outside school, primarily a result of income inequality.” We all wish this were not true but there is a mountain of research to show that it is.
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Actually, Linda, some research shows that gaps grow for many youngsters in public schools once they enter. We also know that some education programs help close gaps. Again, we need to work simultaneously on what’s happening inside & outside public schools. That’s what I’ve tried to do for the last 45 years.
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It is correct that outside school influences are a significant problem and there should be a full frontal attack on these issues. At what point, however, will we realize that schools must be designed to recognize these issues and do our part in supporting all children and all their differences.
Currently students must fit into the school. Is it not time for the school to fit the child? The standardization of children must end.
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Yes, schools must improve too. We know a great deal about how children learn and could make great strides if we responded to the needs of the students. The first thing we need to do is to make sure poor kids have the same resources as rich kids. To me, primary among this is an experienced teacher. Let’s stop the shameful practice of placing the least experienced teacher in low-income schools. An inexperienced teacher from Yale is still an inexperienced teacher.
That said, I know of no school that takes everyone and has closed the achievement gap. All (as in 100%) of the schools that have produced “miracle” test scores have found a way to game the system. There are so many variables involved with testing that it is easy to do. The most common way is to have a select student population while pretending it is not select (e.g. requiring parents to apply in March, requiring parents to comply with strict rules, not replacing students who leave, etc.).
Joe Nathan, you have admitted that we need to address formal and informal education in order to provide equal educational opportunities for all students. Why don’t you join teachers in saying that instead of pretending that the school can do the whole job. There is so much evidence to the contrary.
I firmly believe we can provide a quality education to every child, but first we must acknowledge what we know.
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Linda, you suggest that I “join teachers” – actually I have been working with public school teachers for 45 years. Our center has helped a number of public school teachers carry out their dreams. More details at http://www.centerforschoolchange. I’ve also written more than 2,000 newspaper columns since fall, 1989 that deal with these issues.
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Joe, I know who you are and appreciate your advocacy for children in need. That said, you send the message that a good school can close the gap when there is so much evidence that this is not true. This type of message can be dangerous because many parents subscribe to the false belief that it’s “the school’s job” to educate their children. This is only a partial truth.
When my own son started doing poorly in school, my husband and I evaluated the situation and made changes (e.g. no TV on school nights, summer science workshops, tutors, etc.) Within six months we saw a positive change and he eventually graduated from Stanford with a Ph.D. in engineering. When he matriculated, a sociology professor asked, “What got you interested in engineering?” my son replied, “My mom bought me this great construction toy.” Whether that’s so or not, I don’t know but I DO know that the influence of the family is critical. Again and again, researchers have told us that it is more important than any other factor, including the school.
Many people in the “reform” movement have convinced parents that if they can just get their kid into a “good” school, the child will do well. Of course, it makes a difference but can only go so far. I know this and you know it. That’s why most educated parents go to great lengths to provide educational opportunities for their children. Let’s not hide this or lie about it to poor parents. What they do at home counts, and it counts for a lot.
Joe, this is a wordy response. I’ll simplify it by saying: We know that the home and the school are of critical importance in educating the child. Let’s speak the truth to all parents as they have a right to know.
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Ok, sorry if did not get to everybody’s questions as each of my 4 posts yesterday were quite long already. Here is my first (of 4) posts for July 16, 2015. Let me be more precise as to what my goals are and how VAMs are critical to ensuring all kids have quality teachers. As teachers, I’m sure many of you are quite fond of mnemonics to help kids memorize required facts. I find them quite useful and am quite confident you will never forget this one.
1. We are constantly bombarded with stats about various school districts. Real estate values depend on the perception of how “good” a school district is. Teachers are judged in the public by their overall achievement scores even though everyone knowledgeable in the subject (whether you agree with tests/VAMs or not) agrees that absolute test scores cannot serve as an accurate measure of teacher effectiveness. If we took the least effective teachers in an area and placed them in an affluent school and the most effective teachers and placed them in a disadvantaged school, it is highly unlikely that the disadvantaged kids would outscore the affluent kids. We need a more honest evaluation of schools and districts on an apples-to-apples basis. We need a means to compare disadvantaged schools with disadvantaged schools and affluent schools with affluent schools. While we can disagree with the range of effectiveness, nobody would disagree that some schools are “better” than others. But how do we determine that effectiveness? VAMs provide the most reliable means to evaluate these schools and districts. At the very least, it is unethical to publish average test scores without also publishing growth measures. In one word, VAMs are about providing the TRUTH.
2. Lots of folks throw around the term “social justice”. But what is justice? There is a lot of disagreement when it comes to income redistribution, affirmative action, union rights or even financial reform. But what everyone can agree on is that disadvantaged kids should not always draw the shortest straw when it comes to getting an effective teacher. There is little dispute that mere credentials do not correlate well with teacher effectiveness. The zeal to put “quality teachers”, as measured by credentials, is misplaced. There must be a way to ensure quality teachers are distributed more evenly to all schools. Supporters of VAMs want to hire/retain more effective teachers overall to make this proposition easier. But even if you claim that current teachers are nearly all effective, there should be some attempt to distribute teachers based on effectiveness even if it’s just by observation scores. Since VAMs are highly correlated to observation-based evaluations, VAMs provide the most efficient way to ensure that students have an equal chance to receive an effective teacher. In one word, all students deserve an effective teacher – they deserve JUSTICE!
3. Finally, we need to tell prospective teachers about all the benefits of being a teacher. Studies/polls show teaching is always among the most highly esteemed careers and that it provides a great deal of personal fulfillment. Teachers don’t teach for money but some may eschew teaching because they feel the need to provide a sufficient standard of living for their families. If we can both publish how much teachers currently make and reward the most effective teachers, then we can attract more and better candidates into the profession. Even if we used a purely observation-based system, better teachers deserve higher pay. Higher pay always attracts more candidates which necessarily means that a greater number of highly effective teachers will enter the profession. That ain’t socialism, folks. That’s called capitalism and it’s the greatest force for poverty alleviation in the history of the world. In one phrase, paying the best teachers more is THE AMERICAN WAY.
In the end, it’s pretty simple. Just remember it’s all about the truth, justice and the American way. If we will stop blocking progress, we will no longer have to wait for Superman. He is already here. “He” is just cloaked as VAMs!
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VAM is a cheap, artificial means to avoid systemic change. http://savingstudents-caplee.blogspot.com/2013/12/accountability-with-honor-and-yes-we.html
Value added crap is just a cheap way to try to justify an outmoded system of education. Why do value added when you have the real thing, whole child assessment. We have the ability to assess kids in a meaningful way and look at individual progress. Yet we try to put a band aid on a severed arm.
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To Brian/Virginiasgp:
You sound very naive for being as teacher.
I am neither being teacher by profession, and no longer being parent/grandparent of K-12 student.
If you agree with me that ”the” foundation of any argument needs to be addressed before any debate, then I would like to remind you that in this website, we agree with Dr. Ravitch’s ADVOCACY FOR A QUALITY PUBLIC EDUCATION FOR ALL.
Please re-read carefully WHAT Dr. Ravitch supports and REMINDS all readers in this website that “UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL”
1) We support public education because it is a pillar of our democratic society.
2) We support schools that are subject to democratic control by members of their community.
3) We support the principle that every classroom should be led by a teacher who is well educated, well prepared for the challenges of teaching, and certified.
4) We support teacher professionalism in decisions about curriculum, teaching methods, and selection of teaching materials.
5) We support schools that offer a full and rich curriculum for all children, including the arts, physical education, history, civics, foreign languages, literature, mathematics, and the sciences.
6) We support parent involvement in decisions about their children.
7) We support the idea that students’ confidential information must remain confidential and not be handed over to entrepreneurs and marketing agents.
8) We support schools that have the resources that their students need, such as guidance counselors, social workers, librarians, and psychologists.
9) We support schools that have reasonable class sizes, so that teachers have the time to help the children in their care.
10) We support high standards of professionalism for teachers, principals, and superintendents.
11) We support assessments that are used to support children and teachers, not to punish or stigmatize them or to hand out monetary rewards.
12) We support assessments that measure what was taught, through projects and activities in which students can demonstrate what they have learned.
We support the evaluation of teachers by professionals, not by unreliable test scores.
We support helping schools that are struggling, not closing them.
We support early childhood education, because we know that the achievement gap begins before the first day of school.
We support the equitable funding of schools, with extra resources for those students with the greatest needs.
We support WRAPAROUND SERVICES FOR CHILDREN, such as health clinics and after-school programs.
Please, it is time to remind the public that people with greed will not tolerate humanity, civility, and democracy. As a result, whoever works for people with greed, cannot be trusted.
Definition of greed = grab or loot public fund/assets with bribes.
Definition of virtue = patience, kindness, consideration, calmness, and genius (being born with, or years of working + learning experiences with conscience.)
In short, every time people who have twisted intention, please ask yourself a question,
Do we have a virtue to STAY AWAY any manipulative TRAP from GREEDY corporate backers or from people with knowledge, power, wealth but LACK of CONSCIENCE, and TOLERANCE for humanity, civility, and democracy? Back2basic
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Diane –
Is the link correct, to David Berliner’s “facts about the powerful influence of poverty and inequality on students?” The link takes me to an article about Arne Duncan.
Thanks.
Jerry Becker
From: Diane Ravitch’s blog <comment-reply@wordpress.com> Reply-To: Diane Ravitch’s blog <comment+p6kq961q1cio8b2qg3li32qm@comment.wordpress.com> Date: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 8:02 AM To: Jerry Becker <jbecker@siu.edu> Subject: [New post] David Berliner: Why Poverty and Inequality Matter More than Schools and Teachers
dianeravitch posted: “David Berliner, distinguished educational researcher, has assembled the facts about the powerful influence of poverty and inequality on students. Until now, the linked article has been behind a paywall. It is now available to all. Here is the bac”
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Jerry Becker,
The original link went to the wrong article. I fixed it about an hour after it was posted. Try again.
This is it: http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?ContentId=16889
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