Peter Greene poses a question in this post. If poor children get low test scores, does that mean that all those who teach poor children are bad teachers?
Peter is always funny in the way he presents the “a-ha!” moments in educational research, which are usually either obvious or dumb. Here he looks at a study in Education Next that considered a teacher evaluation program in Chicago. It worked best for the reading scores of advantaged children. It had zero effect on the reading scores of impoverished children. One conclusion might be that poverty matters. But the researchers instead reach a different conclusion.
Peter writes:
“Even though the data points to poverty as the big flashing neon sign of “Hey, here it is!” Steinberg and Sartain walk right past the blinking brightness to select again the teachers and principals as the cause. This is not so much mis-reading data as simply ignoring it. I’m not sure why they bothered with the big long article. They could have just typed, one more time, “Poor students do worse on standardized tests, therefor we conclude that the only possible explanation is that all the bad teachers in the world teach in high-poverty schools.” Also, I’ve noticed that whenever a building is on fire, there are firefighters there with big red trucks, so if you never want your building to burn down, keep firefighters and big red trucks away.
Diane Ravitch's blog 
Peter Greene: The Erma Bombeck of anti-privatization blogging.
Says the privatizing set: “The grass truly is greener over the septic tank. I wonder why….”
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. . . because the edudeformers have a tendency to come from large cities where they don’t know what a septic tank is.
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They must think teachers decide upon graduation that they are either going to really work hard, so they apply to well off districts, while the rest have made the decision to really stink at their chosen profession, so apply to high poverty schools, because, oh, those children are soooo much easier to teach, and no one cares what you do.
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If more people test positive for cancer in one place, then all the doctors in that area a bad doctors?
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“If poor children get low test scores, does that mean that all those who teach poor children are bad teachers?”
Great question.
K through 12, I always did horrible on tests. I usually did horrible on multiple choice tests in college too.
I was also a lousy student K to 12 with severe dyslexia long before special ed came along to help children like me. I also was born into a family living in poverty and my father was an alcoholic, a chain smoker and a gambler. I still remember the first time he took me to Santa Anita with him, and I picked a horse in a buggy race for him to bet on for me and it won. I was probably five or six at the time. My dad knew all the handicappers and on the way to the stands, he stopped and talked to each one to get their tips. A few times, I was also in the car with him, when he went to the mob’s bookie to place bets off track.
To think that today, if I was a child, all my teachers would be judged on my test results might make me feel really guilty as a child. I actually liked most of my teachers and even though I was a horrible passive-aggressive student, I still remember several teachers who tried heroically to reach me so I would learn, and I remember them with kind thoughts even though I resisted all their efforts successfully.
And I’m sure that the emotional response would have caused the child me to do even worse on a multiple choice test if I knew VAM was being used to punish my teachers for my lack of motivation to learn.
There was a lot of turmoil and dysfunction in my family as I was growing up. For instance, when I was about age 5, my 17-year-old illiterate brother came home after a gang fight with an actual split skull with his brain exposed—the same brother would spent 15 years of his life in prison—not all at once. Several times for different illegal acts.
In fact, my father often cheated on my mother just like my brother often cheated on his wives. We lost one home and almost became homeless. My mother had cancer twice while I was growing up and had one kidney removed.
As a child living in poverty, I was really disconnected from reality and often escaped into a fantasy world that lived in my head, and this disconnected me from what was going on in the classroom when I was in school. In addition, I was often sick as a child and was under a doctor’s care for most of my youth as the doctor battled a virus for years that was trying to eat a valve in my heart that would kill me if it succeeded. Needless to say, that doctor won that battle or I wouldn’t’ be here today and I would have never been healthy enough to joined the Marines out of high school and end up in Vietnam where a sniper came within a fraction of an inch of blowing my head off.
Fast forward several decades and that sickly, dysfunction child from a dysfunctional family went to college on the GI Bill and is an Amazon best selling, mid-list author who has published three award winning books.
I think that this is evidence that some of us are late bloomers and Bill Gates $5 – $7 billion funded VAM agenda is punishing teachers unjustly because of that fact. I think more than 10% of high school graduates actually graduate from high school late because they were all late bloomers too. Not everyone earns that high school degree on time at age 17/18. In fact, I was almost 20 when I graduated from high school because I was held back one or two years when I was in grade school and due to health problems I started late too.
I think that we must do all we can to stop forcing children to take bubble tests that will be used to judge teachers and do all we can to make sure all children grow up literate enough to function in today’s modern society. Literacy for a child growing up in poverty might end up being the key that sets them free.
Instead of college and career readiness, the focus should be overcoming the dysfunction that is often caused by growing up in poverty so children will have the same opportunities that I had later in life. I’ve read that about 20% of children who grow up in poverty escape it later in life. If that is true, them I was fortunate but my older brother wasn’t. In 1999, he died at the age of 64. He still lived in poverty; he was still illiterate and mot of his seven children were repeating the life that he lived.
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Thanks for sharing your inspiring story Lloyd!
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You are welcome.
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Your story points out why we must continue to offer options and opportunities for our students. Many poor students, students with learning disabilities, English language learners and emotionally disturbed or substance abusers may not be able to demonstrate their potential through traditional approaches. Many of these conditions overlap as well. With time, help and additional chances, they may find a passion and a path through which they can activate that untapped potential. You certainly did!
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What you say is exactly why we can’t put our children on the Common Core assembly line with endless standardized tests judging them as college and career ready possibly as young as two or three.
The Bill Gates agenda will destroy millions of lives by standardizing the growth of children. Those children who can’t keep or or are not ready will be left behind branded a failures, their lives ruined.
And that leads to this idea. My father belonged to AA for awhile when he was struggling to stop drinking. I think AA for alcohol and drugs might be an ally in the war to keep the public schools more flexible and controlled locally and by teachers instead of billionaire oligarchs like Gates who group up in the upper class and has no idea about the fact that challenges in life where we don’t have wealthy, powerful fathers plowing the road in front of us means we might need more time to come into our own.
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I agree with you. I would also like to add that some people that have high positions in poor districts treat schools with a high rate of poverty as second class citizens. As a former principal of a school in the Bronx, I know that we received no support from our Superintendent, quite the opposite. Nothing from our Network, who for some reason thought they didn’t have to work for us. They knew that a large percent of our parents did not speak English, were in shelters or homeless, so they did not feel that they had to devote any energy in our direction. The truth is they wanted us closed. With that said, I would like to thank all the educators who work hard for the children day in and day out, you are greatly appreciated.
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Thanks, Lloyd. More than well said. Well lived.
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I’m there with you Lloyd. I was a foster kid in and out of institutions for running away and then later burning through 15 homes. I was no delight as a student, but it certainly was not the fault of my teachers. They would be up a creek today, I could not read until I was nearly 15. My then retired first grade teacher taught me to read. I just love how VAM would penalize the fine people that put up with me and eventually helped me become a functioning member of society. We have lost our minds.
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The children growing up today like we did will be prison food for the assembly line, standardized Common Core and VAM world that Bill Gates is buying for everyone if if they don’t want it.
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Lloyd Lofthouse: thanks for speaking straight from the heart.
I make no pretense that my early life was anything like yours, but just to give just one personal example—
Sometime in my late teen years I read a phrase that went something like “he walked around with death in his eyes.” It put words on what I already knew. During my teenage years there were people I had met, either my age or a little older, that simply, by the way they carried themselves and the look on their face and the look in their eyes, were simply rushing quickly to a meeting with the Grim Reaper.
You didn’t want to get in the way of such people if you didn’t want to hasten your own exit from this life. Bravery, cowardice, such words don’t come even close to explaining what I am trying to get across. Living, dying, their life, your life, it’s all the same, who cares? It was just a normal part of what my life was like then.
It was only much later that I really, truly, understood the utter hopelessness that such folks lived with. And their utter and complete lack of any feeling that they, or others, mattered at all, or that people could depend on and help each other. That was just for suckers, sucka….
So in middle school and high year, in school or out, it was a lot more important to keep my attention focused on not (in my case, accidentally) giving offense to such folks. I had at least enough hope to want to stick around a bit longer and see if my life and luck improved.
Did that take attention away from academics? Sure, but I did ok in school. And I am not complaining about my life or what I saw or experienced. Others had it a lot lot tougher than I did.
But I had a very supportive and encouraging parent, something a lot of my peers did not, and their attention to anything academic was fragmented and atomized. Blame that on their teachers?
That’s exactly what the self-proclaimed “education reformers” do. And they leave out every other influence and determining factor on purpose in order to sell their eduproducts du jour—
Except when it comes to THEIR OWN CHILDREN. Then the sky’s the limit and the catchy pr slogan that “you don’t solve a problem by throwing money at it” is blown apart at the subatomic level.
So besides getting well-qualified teachers and letting them teach without the constant interruption of high-stakes standardized tests, we see athletics (sometimes with facilities that would be the envy of professional sports teams) and education abroad programs and fine arts & dramatic arts programs and music (vocal and instrumental) and after-school programs and summer camps, etc., and last but not least, maybe even that fabled kitchen sink—gold plated?
Bill Gates. His own children. Lakeside School. ‘Nuff said.
It’s no accident that they don’t mandate for OTHER PEOPLE’S CHILDREN what they ensure for THEIR OWN CHILDREN. The gap between (public) word and (private) deed is conscious and self-serving: how can the advantaged increase the advantage of THEIR OWN CHILDREN if they don’t disadvantage OTHER PEOPLE’S CHILDREN?
It’s all a game for them, a deadly serious game, and what we call rigging they claim is just the natural and divine order of the universe, with them just codifying in law and practice what they see as both an inevitable—and most importantly from their POV, desirable—outcome.
So forget all the numbers & stats. It comes down, as it always does, to a value judgment, not an algorithm.
They are dead wrong on the substance of the issues. That’s why they’ve already lost the debate, even at this early stage. You think the likes of rheephorm giants Bill Gates or Arne Duncan or John King would ever willingly consent to go toe-to-toe even with a lowlife teacher like you? They’re cowards, and it’s particularly sad and pathetic—don’t you think?—that the edubullies that bash teachers constantly prance and prattle about “ad hominem” attacks when that is their stock in trade.
Thank you for your comments. Keep swinging for the fences. You’re knocking them out of the park.
😎
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I know exactly what you mean by that look of death in someone’s eyes. I saw it in Vietnam. I see it in vets I run into at the VA medical center I use who fought in Somalia, Iraq and Afghanistan. I saw it in some of the children I worked with as a teacher. I even worked with some teens with a look in their eyes that you didn’t turn your back on because that cold look of death in their eyes might end up being your death.
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Dear Lloyd, do you mind me quoting your story with teachers I work with? Your story rings so true to our experience. Teachers are so ready to give, but often students “can’t” receive.
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Readers of this blog will be familiar with the cast of characters and institutions that perpetuate the SPIN from Education Next
Publisher: Hoover Institution,Leland Stanford Junior University
Additional Sponsoring Institutions: Program on Education Policy and Governance, Harvard University and Thomas B. Fordham Foundation (not mentioned Bill Gates and other foundations who pour money into all of these institutions)
Mission Statement
“In the stormy seas of school reform, this journal will steer a steady course, presenting the facts as best they can be determined, giving voice (without fear or favor) to worthy research, sound ideas, and responsible arguments. Bold change is needed in American K–12 education, but Education Next partakes of no program, campaign, or ideology. It goes where the evidence points.”
Editor-in-Chief Paul E. Peterson
Executive Editors
Frederick M. Hess
Michael B. Horn
Marci Kanstoroom
Michael J. Petrilli
Martin R. West
Communications Consultant: Ashley Inman
Research Manuscript Editor: Matthew Chingos
Contributing Editors
Chester E. Finn, Jr.
Jay P. Greene
June Kronholz
Peter Meyer
Editorial Advisory Board
Matthew M. Chingos
Joshua Dunn
David N. Figlio
Chester E. Finn, Jr.
Roland G. Fryer, Jr.
Jay P. Greene
Eric A. Hanushek
William G. Howell
Caroline M. Hoxby
Kirabo Jackson
Robin J. Lake
David L. Leal
Michael Podgursky
Jacob L. Vigdor
Grover J. “Russ” Whitehurst
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“. . . giving voice (without fear or favor) to worthy research, sound ideas, and responsible arguments.”
Two bits says they’ll never give voice to Wilson’s work!!!
“It goes where the evidence points.”
Bullshit!!!
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Lloyd, your story is about the resilience you acquired at the hands of those adults peripheral to your nuclear family. Being a late bloomer is something to celebrate. Teachers often impart immeasurable long term social and emotional strengths and skills to students. Bravo for sharing your reflections.
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Thank you.
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Ha
I am one of 5 TNTP trained teachers at my title one school, and our scores are not as good as the wealthy town nearby.
I conclude that it must be TNTP.
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Teachers need to recognize that you have a child from 8 AM to 3 PM with multiple breaks during this time frame. When a class has at least 20 children (usually 40) how much energy does a teacher have to devote to each child. Minimal. Take the blame off your shoulders and address the child’s parenting skills who should be fertilizing and watering their child’s mind the other 17 hours of the day.
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And when a secondary teacher has 40 minutes and 30 struggling students, even the most herculean effort can barely dent her students problems. And when a significant portion of those students exhibit chronic absenteeism and/or non compliance, all bets are off. Unless you are Andrew Cuomo and think that our training includes the issuance of magic wands. The 8th grade ELA teachers of NYS/NYC will have their careers at stake this coming April, when their students sit for 3 days/4.5 (9 hours for many IEPs) to take the Pearson ELA test. An average 8th grader will have accrued 80,000 waking hours during which they have engaged in various language acquisition activities. The ELA teacher will have had all of 60 hours to improve the reading and writing skills of every 25 to 30 students they taught. So yes, we can take the blame off our shoulders until Andrew Cuomo and his new APPR plan drops it smack down on our heads.
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Came to elementary teaching as a second career. Did my student teaching in a middle income school–with all the trimmings. Took a position (thinking that I was needed and might be able to help) in a school with 95% of the students qualifying for free lunch.
You’re right: test scores indicate that overnight I went from being a “good teacher” to being a “bad teacher.”
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I went from being a “Skilled” teacher as a result of my observation and walk-through evidence portions of my evaluation, to a “Developing” teacher when the VAM (50% of my evaluation) was included. I’ve been teaching 20 years, but went back to “Developing” overnight. And I teach in a suburban district with a growing population of free/reduced lunch kiddos. I’ll be “Ineffective” in the near future if I stay in this district. I’d better get to a more affluent district pretty darn quick so I’ll be an “Accomplished” teacher before I retire.
Thanks for the heads-up!!
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Those Swine. You’re not alone . I have seen 30’year vets without a blip on the file, great evaluations offered jobs in affluent districts they were that good ,kids in love with the class and BAM The suits crawl up their a** and they re gone. They get displaced then theyre at will subs until the kill site where principals create absurd reasons to give them unsats that they do not know they must answer in 5 days or you get the sack, which you may get anyway. . The union helps teachers to the gallows , tells them they got no case in teachers jail and act like RiFsare not that big a deals when they know prop 30′ is supposed to pay to keep them, these senior teachers replaced by subs and interns Utla fails to mention when it sleepwalks through a Perb Why should they get more interns to pay dues . And Lausd can afford more of them. And they will never stay ling enough to get pesky tenure .or the benefits. The raises up dried up 8 years ago. So the reform maverick thinks twice the legal cap on class size , usurping conferences giving an Avg HS teacher 300 kids with the usual issues , ESL, sped , stoner. Replacing exp teachers with highly qualified interns,- TFA interns is going to improve test scores .mas you can see sociopathy is inclined to lash out at those they intend to eliminate. You gotta be ready . They are gonna F with you , so do not let them make you emotional .KNOW THIS is not you . But they can make it so you appear to be .
LM
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I’m going to shamelessly steal that line about the firefighters and the big red trucks. As soon as enough time has gone by for you all to forget that Peter Greene was the one who originally came up with it.
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According to KIPP, those poor kids just need better self control and GRIT. So I guess that’s the silver bullet (besides selective enrollment). Teachers just have to make sure their kids pass the marshmallow test.
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I hope everyone who understands the satirical content of the above comment watches and then comments on this segment of the PBS Newshour. Paul Solman gushes all over KIPP, apparently without ever verifying KIPP’s “stats”. Why do economists have a place in education anyway?
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/can-teaching-kids-resist-marshmallow-pave-road-success/#comment-1782753900
The money quote:
“PAUL SOLMAN: Most KIPP students are chosen by lottery, regardless of prior academic record. Almost all meet federal poverty guidelines. And yet 82 percent go on to college, and nearly half complete a four-year degree, five times the rate of the average low-income student.”
What can’t Gates’ money buy?
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Except that we CANNOT take the blame off of our shoulders, because we didn’t put it there in the first place. Tell you argument (which is a good one) to the policymakers and politicians and administrators. Teacher have none of the power, and, apparently, all of the responsibility.
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teachers for poor children are not bad… but it depends on other external and internal factors for teachers to be good or bad
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A lot of us were like Lloyd. When I wrote a thank you letter to my legendary English teacher in high school (20 years later), he was very surprised. He didn’t think he got through to me at all. I was a jerk in high school and very sarcastic and angry at everyone. I liked the thrill of fighting, driving fast, and chasing girls. I didn’t really get serious about education until graduate school. It’s funny how education and mentoring work. Sometimes it takes years to marinate and ripen. No matter what kind of system of education comes to be, there will always be those who succeed and fail. Life does a good job of separating the wheat from the chaff. Even if the whole system becomes privatized (and everyone goes to two years of community college, ha ha) there will be those who succeed early (with testing), or late (like Lloyd and myself), and those who fail. It probably doesn’t matter very much what system is used. The end results will be the same. The country won’t become smarter or dumber. I just wonder who will want to teach in the future. That is the question! Who wants this career?
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Yes I agree. I was that student. I also got an email from “that student” recently telling me what a huge influence I was in her life, and all the things that prevented her from benefitting from it then. Most of which I knew:)
Luckily, we didn’t have student surveys “yet” because she seemed to hate me that year because I was always trying to push her to achieve her potential and to be more respectful to me and others. In Dallas they are giving student surveys out. Personally I don’t think that an adolescent, esp a resistant one, should be allowed to rate their teacher. A lot of kids are just going to pick the one that they like the best and even the ones that give little work. They won’t often see the effort of a good teacher until they are more mature.
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The students at the high school where I taught for the last 16 years I was a teacher voted annually on the best teacher, and the same teacher won most of those annual popularity contests. He was also known as Mr. Hollywood because he showed so many films, and no one ever failed his class. When he should have been teaching, he was telling lots of jokes that had nothing to do with the history he was supposed to be teaching. He was more of a stand-up-comic than a history teacher, but he was voted “best” teacher of the year on a regular basis, and he also was one of the football coaches who worked after school and on weekends with one of the HS football teams.
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Slightly off topic but thought it was worth posting.
Once again from the NYT. Article titled, “Should Schools Teach Personality?”
Here’s an excerpt:
“Self-control, curiosity, “grit” — these qualities may seem more personal than academic, but at some schools, they’re now part of the regular curriculum. Some researchers say personality could be even more important than intelligence when it comes to students’ success in school. But critics worry that the increasing focus on qualities like grit will distract policy makers from problems with schools.”
http://op-talk.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/01/10/should-schools-teach-personality/?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=c-column-top-span-region®ion=c-column-top-span-region&WT.nav=c-column-top-span-region
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I think we already have the answer to artificially attempting to manipulate the development of character and personality—for instance, grit—outside of the home and community—-what did we get from the self-esteem movement that did all it could to inflate a false sense of self esteem in children?
Answer: The Narcissism Epidemic
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-narcissism-epidemic/201101/why-chinese-mothers-really-are-superior-average
Can we really program a child to grow up with grit and be courageous, dedicated, fearless, a hero, or will we end up with another Frankenstein monster? The opposite of grit is cowardice, timidity and weakness.
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You bring up the notion of “programming a child,” and I think this is Gates’ simplistic way of understanding the human condition. Like a computer, if you write the correct code, you will get the right output. As most of us understand, humans are complex, flawed and sometimes irrational. As you point out, you and your brother had the same dysfunction in your lives, but you overcame and he succumbed to the negative forces. Teachers certainly influence students, but trying to quantify the amount is absurd and unscientific.
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You are right. And teachers do have some influence but I think K – 12, the individual teacher has only a small fraction of influence compared to the whole. Gates, on the other hand, is attempting to take over the education of children from k-12 with his idea of reform and that may eventually include the national early childhood education program that Obama is rolling out this year. If Congress approves his 10 year plan, that means $75 billion.
Imagine the Gates VAM rank-and-fire teachers while closing public schools approach to reform while that corporate agenda takes over the education of children possibly as early as age two and then controls that programming until 18.
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“If poor children get low test scores, does that mean that all those who teach poor children are bad teachers?”
Under Race to the Top, I guess we will find out. Every state has to come up with a plan to ensure Teacher Equity http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/campaign-k-12/2014/03/obama_to_propose_race_to_the_t.html
Move the high-achieving school teachers to the low achieving schools. Let’s see what happens.
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Can the teachers from the low achieving schools go to the high achieving schools? “My bags are packed. I am ready to go.”
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Teach for America recruits do it all the time—-that is, most of the 1/3 who stay in teaching behind the second year finds a job teaching in an affluent community and far from public school with high ratios of children living in overly. In fact, less than 3% of TFA recruits who started out, stay in poor performing public schools after the second year. Two-thirds leave education forever and most of the one-third that stays, moves out and up.
If anyone asks me for my sources on that, read Dana Goldstein’s “The Teacher Wars”. She already did the research.
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I’ve always wished there could be a controlled study, whereby the entire staff of two schools – one high achieving, one low achieving – could be swapped for three years to see if there was a correlation. Wouldn’t that be interesting???
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I found this from the Aspen Institute. I scanned the paper and it looked assimilate to swapping teachers between a low performing and high performing school.
Maybe Diane knows something about this experiment.
The components of an effective turnaround strategy include19
:
>A transformational leader who can build a culture of high expectations and ownership of
student outcomes.
>High-capacity teams of teachers with know-how and expert support to collaborate to
adjust instruction using assessment data on student progress.
>School designs that prioritize core academics and provide time and individualized
interventions for students to catch up.
>Resources and central support to implement their turnaround vision.
Click to access ED_Case_Study_Strategic_Staffing.pdf
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Our district has a very wide reach. You have schools with almost 100% free and reduced lunch and some with 0%. We are at 90%. There is a district reading competition that we participate in every year. In May they release the new lists for the following year-parents from those weathier schools buy their students the whole set of books at Barnes and Noble (over $300). They read the books over the summer as a requirement from the school. During the competition the parents even know the answers because they read the books as well-probably with their kids. Our kids are given the list in May and I have yet to have one read a book even at the library over the summer (they really don’t have access to reliable transportation, plus you have the problem of needing valid ID to get a library card which scares some of our parents). Our parents can’t even name the books on the list. Which schools do you think win the competition every year? There is a vast difference between the resources available to the rich compared to the poor. How you could ignore that fact as a researcher, I have no idea!
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I’m reminded of something Sonia Sotomayor says in her autobiography: affirmative action only puts people at the starting line of a race they didn’t even know was happening.
And I hate that school is all about competition – thanks, market-based education!
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The joke of it is, it seems to me that if you fully financed public schools, and left good benefits in place, and allowed teachers their autonomy (and maybe, just maybe, heralded teachers now and then), the free market would actually work well!
Teaching would be a desired profession. More students would enroll. More talented students would enroll (whether talent is defined as academic skill or passion). More talented students in schools of Education would naturally raise the bar within the programs. More graduates would apply for teaching positions so schools could make decisions among many candidates and choose the best fit. Administrators might even work hard to keep talented new teachers, perhaps by listening to them every now and then! Imagine! The chaos of it all…..
The only problem with that fantasy is that the ‘free market’ in my scenario lines no ones pockets…..
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Reblogged this on TD Hassett and commented:
Why is this so hard for the public to understand?
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The parents aren’t interested in this pointless random number generator. In NY only a handful of the millions of parents asked schools about their teacher’s APPR score. The state ed department decided not to comment on it.
http://www.troyrecord.com/social-affairs/20150111/few-parents-seeking-teacher-evaluation-scores
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