Madeline Scotto loves to teach. She has been teaching math at St. Ephrem’s in Brooklyn since 1954, when she was 40 years old. Now she is 100, and the school will celebrate her birthday. She coaches the math bee now. She loves teaching.
She graduated from St. Ephrem’s in 1928, then graduated from St. Joseph’s College for Women, where she majored in French. After having given birth to five children, she decided to try her hand at teaching. And she has never stopped, other than to transition from full-time to part-time. St. Ephrem’s is a Catholic school. Catholic schools are dying out because of the competition from tuition-free charter schools that claim to offer the same climate but can’t because they do not have the moral foundation of Catholic schools.
A few days ago, I attended a memorial celebration for my friend Sister Nora Ashe at the Oratory of Saint Boniface in downtown Brooklyn. All of the students and about 40 of the Sisters of St. Joseph from far and wide were there. The school used to enroll 1600 students; now it enrolls 300. It rented some of its empty space to a charter school. Sister Nora was tragically killed a year ago when a box truck slammed into the back of her car at a red light. Sister Nora loved to teach and loved to learn. She was 65. She never got a VAM score. No one was trying to measure her effectiveness; they knew she was effective by the spirit in her classrooms. St. Joseph High School named its technology room the Sister Nora Ashe Technology Center. Nora is the kind of sister who would have taught to 100 or even longer, had she survived.
Isn’t it great to be able to teach without being harassed by state and federal officials and mandates?
Diane Ravitch's blog 
It would be interesting to hear from people who attended Catholic schools. I know several women who felt they were treated as 2nd class citizens and fed lots of ideas that they rejected.
For example, many religions feel that women as well as men can be religious leaders. Ever heard of a pope who was a woman? And some Catholic schools taught that Jews were Christ killers.
I’m sure that they are people who prized their Catholic education. But there was more to Catholic education that no standardized tests.
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Many Christians forgot that Jesus was a Jew (some still do) as his disciples were and blamed Jews for his crucifixion. As far as I know, Jesus never rejected his faith but sought to highlight its strengths as he saw it. That being said, people have done horrible things in the name of religion throughout history. They have also been shining examples to the rest of us in how to show faith. I don’t think anyone has or had a monopoly on righteousness or evil. We can only hope that with time we all will become more accepting of others. Your post was beneath you, Joe.
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Sadly, there are many people who have been harmed by their Catholic education. I think any fair description would acknowledge damage as well as the lack of standardized tests that are a part of Catholic education.
There also has been massive damage to youngsters done by pedophile priests. This is true all over the country. Yes, others have done some of this but the Catholic church has systematically hidden and denied it for decades. Finally we are making progress.
Again, a comprehensive view of Catholic education might include these facts.
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Joe Nathan,
There must be other blogs where you could be a naysayer. I did not write a post about the strengths and flaws of Catholic education, but a post about a remarkable dedicated teacher and the death of a dear friend who was a Sister of St. Joseph and a devoted teacher.
This is one of those times when I think you are obnoxious, annoying, off-topic purposely, and a troll.
Do me a favor and haunt someone else’s blog for a while. Your insensitivity is hurtful. Just go away.
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Far, far away Joe. I always knew your true colors.
Now they shine through. I am embarrassed for you.
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Joe Nathan, you have shown anti-Catholic bigotry. Please don’t comment here any more. Bigots are not wanted.
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What is factually incorrect that I posted about Catholic dogma? Women are 2nd class citizens. The church has tolerated pedophiles for decades. Some Catholic churches have taught that Jews are Christ killers.
Rather than name calling, how about if we have a frank discussion about the “moral foundation of Catholic schools.”?
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It’s the charter comment that set you off and now you’re attempting to deflect. Go away. Get your own blog.
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Nope – “it’s the moral foundation of Catholic education.” In a series of comments, neither you nor Diane have responded to the issues I’ve raised about 2nd class citizenship for women, about telling children that people who use birth control are evil, or about about the systematic defense of priests who abused children.
There is constant criticism of other parts of education in the US. Why is there so little concern about this part of education, which has had an impact on millions of youngsters?
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Your post was not just about a particular teacher Diane. It was a statement about the “moral foundation of Catholic schools.” That’s quite a statement. Sorry you don’t want ot hear dissent about this.
The “moral foundation of Catholic schools” includes 2nd class citizenship for women. Are you in favor of that? Catholic policy, promoted in Catholic schools, has insisted that people who practice birth control are sinners. Are you in favor of that “moral foundation.”
Raising concerns about Catholic education is entirely legitimate. Sorry you don’t see it, Diane. Many others around the country have shown considerable courage in standing up.
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Diane, sorry that my comments came across as insensitive. I am sorry your friend died.
Among other things, I’ve worked with people who have been victims of what I described. I’ve been married for many years to a woman who was taught by members of the Sisters of St. Joseph. She has strong views about the role of the church. And I’ve been active in efforts to promote marriage equity – a battle in which the Catholic church here and in many other places has been an opponent. Finally, both as a child, and as a parent, I’ve had to deal with Catholic teachings that were strongly anti-Jewish.
It appears we have different views and experience on the moral foundation of Catholic schools. I respect your willingness to accept different views being posted on this blog.
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Joe,
My partner was educated by the nuns. I have spent many hours with Sisters and Brothers and priests. Those I know are kind, caring, compassionate, and wise. I appreciate your keeping your anti-Catholic rants off this blog. Find another place to express those views. Not here.
As I have said many times, I oppose public money for vouchers, homeschooling, cybercharters (a Ponzi scheme), and privately managed schools. I oppose public funding of religious schools. I think that most charters are a part of the corporate assault on public education. I think that for-profit charters should be banned. I think charter executive salaries should be capped to no more than local school salaries. I oppose chain schools.
I think public money should go to public schools, private money to private schools.
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Half empty or half full. Joe thinks costs versus benefits for a post that celbrates a bithday of a friend and the loss of an educator who was clearly loved by a community.
Joe, please look at the context for the post. This post is not a great occasion for sniping.
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The original comment contained a slap at the charter movement and an assertion about testing. There was much more than praise for a friend.
Laura – How do you feel about the predatory practices of some Catholic priests that were part of some Catholic schools for generations?
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Joe’s purpose here has always been to nitpick and minimize Diane’s impact. Shoo fly.
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Linda, do you think the 2nd class citizenship for women promoted by Catholic schools for decades and the predatory tactics in some Catholic schools is “nitpicking”?
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Joe come on. Is this just about Catholics? I knew a boy scout leader who (after removing himself of his own volition) turned out to have been an Episcopal minister run out of his flock in another state for similar reasons. I taught at a non-religious private boarding school rife with inappropriate come-ons, by a female teacher to young women, by 2 male Engl teachers to young women (1 of whom divorced his wife & married the student when she turned 18– & never was fired!) This stuff is everywhere. Reflects nothing in particular on Catholic schools. Please.
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Agree that there have been predators in other schools. But again, you raise no concerns about 2nd class citizenship for women which has been promoted by Catholic schools.
Fortunately some people have been willing to stand up to this 2nd class citizenship for women, the hatred of Jews taught by some Catholic schools and the denial that has gone on for generations by the Catholic church of mistreatment.
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joe nathan. Get lost. Catholic schools did not work for us and I was targeted by a pedo priest (parents intervened). But realize the Catholic Church is varied and evolving as the recent conference demonstrated. I respect a 100 year old math teacher and the good priests. My best friend in high school was Jewish, our dear neighbor is a Muslim, I married a Protestant, a friend who stood by me in college is an atheist, and you are a troll.
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Glad your parents intervened, Math Vale. This thread started with praising a particular teacher, and with assertions about the morale foundation of Catholic schools.
It’s clear that raising questions that “moral foundation” is not popular here.
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If we all were to do a strict assessment of the texts and histories that serve as a foundation of our beliefs, I would guess that we would be questioning the character of that foundation. From what I can tell, we have been killing and enslaving each other since the beginning of time. Women have been treated as subordinate for most of recorded history in many if not most societies. The sexual excesses of men have frequently been expected rather than ignored. It is only in the most recent years that sexual escapades have been routinely aired publicly in this country. The fact that the church has been forced to deal with some particularly repugnant sexual behavior that has been ignored in the past is a step forward. Show me the institution that has not had to address these and many other issues of abuse and inequity.
I am not Catholic but Protestant. We have our own rather blatant shortcomings, and our history is not a string of saintly people and events. Human beings seem to have a really hard time living up to the moral teachings that I hope most of us could agree to in principle. While it is right that we address moral outrages, it is probably just as important that we not be too eager to claim the right to cast the first stone whether we believe in a higher power or not.
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To Especially Joseph Nathan and All Others Who Respond to Him,
I was raised Roman Catholic but converted to Judaism in my mindset, heart, cultural lens, and many other important ways. Neither religion is better or worse, but spirituality is a very personal thing. I don’t talk too much about my own experiences here because I feel very private about it, and that is my prerogative
It’s true when Joseph says that the Catholic church is oppressive to women and has had a history of abuses to children and to cultures across the world. . . . Look at the molestation records of priests and the whole coverup in the last 15 years. Of course, if the Catholic church could get its act together and just allow priests and nuns to marry, this would be far less of an issue.
Throughout history, many sovereignties have obliterated whole cultures and societies in the name of declaring the Catholic church to be THE religion of the world. Just ask Central and South America and look at how they still managed to preserve their Sun God in the imagery of Catholic themed paintings and sculpture.
Catholic and other Christian missionaries have set upon the world over the centuries to convert “less civilized” people. Just ask Christopher Columbus, Cortez, and Pizarro. I’m afraid in their zeal for god, they were anything but Christian towards the indigenous peoples of Central and South America.
And I would also like to say that without leaving its own continent, Europe has warred internally within sects of Christianity, and many schisms have evolved with competing ideologies AND as a mask to hide real motives of gaining more land, power, and wealth.
I tend to think that these thoughts are virtually a no-brainer to anyone who has studied world history.
Still, there are internal conflicts, JOSEPH, in all faiths. Jimmy Carter and Roslyn left their traditional Baptist Church to join a reformed one because of its code that makes a wife always defer to her husband in ultimate decision making.
And Judaism, Joseph? No abuses there from the rabbis to children? The whole orthodox culture of men being the scholars and attending schule but not really girls and women? And women having to sit up in the balcony at temple services, isolated from men? And women having mainly power (I am talking in very traditional, and even orthodox styles) in the home, women known as ballabusters. Yet, outside the home, women have little voice in politics and power structures?
So, Mr. Nathan, before you go off and criticize Diane’s rollout of Catholic education, why don’t you wax a little Catholic yourself (did you know “Catholic” means “well rounded and balanced” when used in the phrase “Catholic education” and it’s used to describe educational approaches and philosophies that are not necessarily within the Catholic faith!).
Diane was praising the contributions of a teacher who loved her students and worked in a system and culture that, even with its flaws, maintained, relative to public schools, a virtue of non-bureaucratic, independent thinking that did not defer nearly as heavily to policies that are made by very powerful, ignorant, corrupt, and disconnected non-educators, as in the 24 writers of the CCSS. Many of these people are people you support, Joseph.
Ladies and Gentlemen, Mr. Nathan has tried to distract many from the main issue at hand here, and it obviously did not work. Joseph, in the words of the fast, cheap, and out-of-control David Coleman, you need to do a CLOSE READING of Diane’s post. You obviously missed the tone and motivation of the writer as well as her view. Sorry, Joey, but that’s a reformy 1 or a 2 on your standardized test here.
And to the ever quippy Linda: You refer to Joseph as the fly who must be shooed away.
Please everyone, chase the cockroach and step on him, will you?
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a couple of quick comments from one who has been in a variety of religious traditions, including all 3 main branches of Judaism (not Reconstructionist)
1. Orthodox Jews never use the term “temple” – that is only used by Reform Jews. For all others that term is reserved for Jerusalem and instead they will use synagogue or shule
2. Even some Orthodox shules now have women as Presidents of the Congregation. They may not have the liturgical function, but otherwise still exert leadership. All other branches of Judaism have female rabbis and cantors
3. We can take ANY religion and find things to criticize either among prominent members, ordained or otherwise, or in the structure of the organization if we want. To recognize that is not to thereby imply that there is no morality in that tradition. That one of us does not agree with their moral framing does not per se make it immoral. If you do not like that framing, or the organizational structure, you are always free to change religious affiliation and/or start your own religion. You and I are people who have changed their affiliation. I maintain respect for many Catholics – including some bishops and many priests – that I know. Having myself held lay leadership positions in the Orthodox Church of America at parish, diocesan and national levels and having had a liturgical function as a choir director, I can still respect that tradition in which I was married and in which my wife is still a member despite having encountered corrupt (on moral and ethical grounds) priests, bishops, and other lay leaders.
4. None of that is relevant to what Diane originally posted. That the thread has been hijacked is unfortunate.
For the record, my current affiliation is Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) and we have our share of problems, including that Evangelical Friends remain hostile to gay rights at the same time as unprogrammed Friends often have openly gay people in leadership positions. That does not prevent me from affirming what is good among evangelical Friends – for example, we all support the Peace Testimony.
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I attended a well-regarded Catholic high school in a suburb of a major metropolitan area. It’s the closest thing in my experience to living under a totalitarian regime. I can’t comprehend Diane’s love affair with Catholic education.
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My cradle-C husband rarely darkened the door of a church after his Catholic ed for similar reasons; he was an unconventional Italian soul in Irish-Catholic lockdown. Nevertheless, he studied hs Engl from the same text used in my Ivy League freshman Engl class; his fine Catholic ed bought him scholarship into an exc engrg school which led to a fine career. Enough w/the C-school putdowns.
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I don’t normally out my way to criticize Catholic schools or even tbe Catholic Church. But I find it difficult to hold back when I see weird, slavish praise of this backwards and harmful institution. I realize that Catholic schools were an important bulwark against anti-Catholic prejudice in East Coast public schools many years ago. But enough with the facile praise of the “moral foundations” of Catholic schools.
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Thanks for the observation FLERP! Sadly you are not alone.
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Rheely Joe? That is what you got out of this post? Ugh.
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What I got was an uncritical salute to Catholic schools. Sadly, not one of the people who criticized me expressed any concerns about Catholic schools.
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And you don’t care about the segregation that happens in charter schools Joe? You don’t care that little black and brown children are treated as less than? Have uncertified, under-prepared, unqualified teachers and lots of them? You don’t care that charters circumvent the law and run off with the profits? You’re talking about ancient history that no one embraces. Betcha tho you love yourself some vouchers that go to religious schools tho, huh? Anything to get those public taxpaying dollars out of the public schools. You take every moment here, no matter the post, to promote your charter agenda. Go kiss a Rhee.
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Donna,
As a long time reader and poster on this blog I can assure you that Joe Nathan has repeatedly expressed his opposition to voucher schools. His and his families long involvement in urban education would suggest that he is committed to a better education for all.
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Actually, Donna, I care a lot about those kids,whether they attend district, charter or other schools. And I assume you do too.
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I am a Roman Catholic and I take issue with your post and find it offensive.
It doesn’t surprise me coming from you but there it is. Modern education had its foundations in the Roman Catholic Church yet you try to reduce it to a few anecdotal stories and a mischaracterization of the bedrock doctrine of the Church while totally ignoring the content of Diane’s post.
Way to go Joe. You are consistently obtuse and offensive, if nothing else.
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Chris, Diane spoke of the “moral foundation of the Catholic schools.” Let’s talk about that. 2nd class citizenship for women is not an anecdote. Telling children that people who use birth control are evil and not following what God wants us to do is not an anecdote.
Denying that priests all over the nation abused children was policy for decades. Fortunately some people stood up to this.
These are not anecdotes. They are part of the moral foundation of Catholic schools.
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I’ve been having an internal debate on your last question for a while now: does the higher salary my district pays as compared to that of a private school compensate for the stress I am feeling as a public school teacher? I am about 7 years from retirement and truly do not think I will make it that long.
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Diane, Your blog is very inspirational to so many educators, but just a little tidbit if you see a decline in your readers now that we are back in session…. this is why……. You see….. we have to manage and create a professional growth plans, develop SLO’s, show data in the growth of all students, did I mention OTES, not to mention that I have my IEP students that I have to get ready for the 3rd grade reading guarantee in Ohio or she fails the 3rd grade (oh and yes she has an identified learning disability in reading). Did I mention that our school levy is going on the ballot and we are going door to door, and attending levy committee meetings and our district is the process of a huge transformation plan that has working committees. All these activities have some value to their cause but like most we are also trying to raise families as well (at least a couple of hours in the week).
From: An organized and professional time manager that really wants to enjoy the passion of teaching.
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Hang in. You are doing heroic work that none of the “value-added” metrics count.
The SLO process is an effort to micromanage teachers. It is filled with pretentious pseudo-scientific nonsense, The requirement to do comply with this requirement twice is absurd, and that your rating on the SLO counts for 50% of you evaluation is off the charts wrong. The proposed option looks even more formidable, especially if an external reviewer jumps into the process with no background in the grade, subject, or students you are teaching.
The Ohio Department of Education website should be an embarrassment. People who input the information for SLOs do not know the difference between a rationale and a rational or they have used a spell checker without bothering to check for meaning. Meaningless answers are abundant in the “frequently asked questions” section on teacher evaluation.
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I think that having parents choose the school reduces the needed regulations compared to schools where the local government chooses for the parents.
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What if the parent chooses their local public school?
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Daniel,
Choice can substitute for some regulations. That is independent of which school is chosen, one that is near the home or one that is farther away.
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Even in the best case scenario, “choice” can only substitute for regulations with full transparency, which is something that many (most?) charters are fighting tooth and nail. Gee, I wonder why?
But even with full transparency, “choice” isn’t really a substitute for regulation. Parents lack the power of the government.
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Dienne,
I would go with “some”. It is an underused word here.
You send your children to a lightly regulated private school. Do you feel powerless?
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My daughter’s school is completely transparent. Any parent is welcome to attend board meetings and review the books. Can KIPP, Yes Prep, Success Academy, Rocketship, ASPIRE, etc. claim that?
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Dienne,
I did not think you would choose to send your children to any school that was not transparent. I think other parents wold make the same choice.
I don’t know about the schools that you name, but taken together they amout to a very small percentage of the charter schools in the country, certainly no more than 5% (Rocketship, for example, has 11 schools out of the estimated 6,000 charter schools in the country.)
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Yes, I think parents should be able to attend board meetings and review financial statements including yearly audits. Good question about those organizations. I’ll ask.
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You two are a hoot. All the charters I listed are national. How’s a parent in, say, Milwaukee, supposed to attend a board meeting in, say, California? For all I know, maybe those charters will claim that parents can attend their board meetings. But distance kinda makes the whole point moot, doesn’t it?
Anyway, if you both really do value independent schools, whether charter or district, you should be the first to speak out against these giant behemoth charters all using identical drill-and-kill, “no excuses” methods, all specifically targeting minority kids. The fact that you don’t speak out says all I need to know. Clearly, you know where your bread is buttered.
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Dienne,
National charters are a small fraction of all charter schools.
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Yes, for now, TE. And besides, it’s only “those kids” who are affected anyway, so who cares, right? Thanks for making yourself clear.
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Dienne,
Who are “those kids”? You mean kids like mine, that only attend public schools?
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You mean like the regulations on financial transparency, TE?
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Threatened,
Those would be good to have. I think you want to regulate the things that are difficult for the parents to see, likely to have important consequences, and folks can generally agree about.
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Yep. But charters fight tooth and nail against those kind of regulation. As a result, the choices are not always informed. People are horrified, for example, when I explain to them that charters remove students all the time but keep the money.
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Threatened, in which states does this occur? Many states base funding on # of students attending, and not just on # attending at the beginning of the year.
What state(s) are you referring to, and what is the law re whether schools keep funding regardless of where the student attends throughout the year?
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Threatened,
Perhaps some do. Would you like to see the annual report for the Community Roots Charter School? It is here:h ttp://www.communityroots.org/apps/pages/index.jsp?uREC_ID=279704&type=d&pREC_ID=632382
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Joe: In my state, Utah, what I have described is accurate. A teacher at a nearby charter school was even bragging in a doctor’s office that they get rid of kids who violate dress codes, but only after October 1. She was so impressed by this, apparently, that she found no shame in it and announced it out in public, within earshot of one of the teachers at my school–the school which gets the kids back from the charter school when they violate whatever. Frequently, they are credit deficient. I know that several other states, mostly notably Florida, do something similar. This won’t be fixed anytime soon, because several legislators, including my own state senator, work for, or have family working for, charter management organizations, and the state school board is stacked with charter supporters. In fact, the Utah State School Board just selected a lawyer as its new State Superintendent. He has no teaching experience whatsoever, and has managed to run most of the teachers out of the inner-city district that he “managed” as superintendent for three years.
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And if the “choice” schools are a couple monopolies? You assume choice cannot be offered through government, free elections, and public schools. A major flaw in your assumptions.
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MathVale,
Choice is not offered to the minority through elections or governments. Typically the minority is protected by limiting what elections and governments can do.
If there are a “couple” of schools to choose from, that is choice. The schools can be allowed to specialize a bit more than they could if parents were told where to send their students, and I think the students would benefit from the specialization.
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as you know, I have tried retiring several times. I will turn 69 in May and am teaching 6 classes totaling >140 students. After having lived through what I was like when I was not in a classroom, my beloved wife will kick me in the butt or worse if I try to stop teaching while I can still be effective.
Yes, I am in a public school. I have to put up with Federal, state and school system mandates – to some degree. I am fortunate in working for a principal who knows me and respects what I do, and with building administrators who have already told me they support what they have seen and what they are hearing from parents and students.
Could I have more flexibility in a non-public setting? Probably. But I am able to teach a wider variety of socioeconomics and other dimensions of diversity by being in a public setting.
Perhaps one day we will get rid of the recent madness and empower local schools to meet the needs of the students before them.
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Ken, congratulations on having the energy and desire to continue teaching 140+ students at age 69.
A growing number of educators are intrigued by the “teacher led” schools concept. Perhaps this will interest you:
http://www.educationevolving.org/blog/2014/05/today-teacher-powered-schools-initiative-launches
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Joe – several things
1. you need to read with more care. I said I would be 69 in May
2. I am well aware of teacher-led schools, having known Lori Nazareno for a number of years, having met her at an event in Richmond. As you well know, despite how busy I am as a teacher and a blogger, I find time to ride widely in educational fields
3. Whether you agree with what you think the moral foundation of Catholic schools might be, you were definitely hijacking the thread. You are also overly defensive on anything to do with charters. While I am not and never have been Catholic, I have a masters from a Catholic Seminary and license from the Vatican to teach religion in any Catholic school in North America. I think I know a fair amount about Catholic education. That women cannot be ordained priests does not per se make them second class citizens. Neither can married men. That is an expression of your personal view, and is irrelevant to the purpose of Diane’s post.
4. Finally, and this is why I will not further reply to you here – this is Diane’s blog, we are her guests, she asked you not to post further, yet you choose to ignore that. Regardless of anything else, that is rude. As one who has run an open blog and served on the editorial board of two others, I can assure you that the kind of behavior you are demonstrating would have lead to your being banned forthwith. You were warned, you persisted in the behavior.
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Thanks for pointing out that you will turn 69 in May. I stand corrected.
As one of the purposes of this blog seems to be to share information about how to improve public education I thought I’d share information about the teacher led school efforts.
I realize that you read and comment widely. I thought you might not know about the teacher led schools effort. Again, now I know that you do.
As to the other issue, yes, agreed, this blog does belong to Diane.
One of the features here is there is spirited debate, and an openness to listen to and learn from other views. I respect that.
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A lovely tribute to some dear friends (and good teachers!). Thanks for sharing, Diane!
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Every school in the Diocese of New York administers the NYSED ELA and math exams to its grade 4, 6, and 8 students. I’m sure the Diocese of Brooklyn has a similar policy.
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For obvious reasons I cannot identify by name the teacher I am referring to in the following true account. This teacher taught for just under 50 years almost solely in the same school with nothing but satisfactory and often stellar performance ratings. A new principal was appointed, who was conceived in her mother’s womb a lesser amount of time back than the date of this teacher’s appointment. Anyway, guess who suddenly got exclusively bad evaluations? There had been no change in her style or effectiveness. Education is the only “profession” where experience is viewed as a drawback by many of the authorities in charge.
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Diane,
Unfortunately, the NY archdiocesan school leadership is attempting to negotiate a new evaluation system with the Catholic schools’ teacher union. The new system the superintendent wants is modeled on NYSED’s. So unless the union leadership holds out, Catholic school teachers in the NY archdiocese will be VAMed. Very depressing. (The NY archdiocese doesn’t include Brooklyn, but it does include Manhattan, the Bronx, and the lower Hudson Valley.)
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Can we assume that’s what teaching in public schools was like before the DOE or maybe before A Nation at Risk?
Was it?
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Joe’s promotion of Joe goes way back. See this comment and the full blog post on Fred Klonsky…link below. Skip Joe’s bio..he has posted it over and over and over.
George N. Schmidt
October 6, 2014 4:10 pm
Joe Nathan has been preaching this nonsense from his “University of Minnesota” and other pulpits for more than 20 years. He used to belabor all these points from the ARN ListServe (Fair Test) and others I was on, but has apparently continued elsewhere. This was nicely done. I’d like to use it, since back when Joe wrote “Free To Teach” he trundled around with his car filled with copies of the book. He really hasn’t changed the abstract positions he defends, even though history long ago proved his abstractions (insofar as they were ever worth considering) wrong. But as you note, he is as well funded as the Illinois Network of Charter Schools. Difference is his camouflage is usually much better.
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Increasing family involvement, having a wider variety of assessments, empowering educators to create public schools that make sense to them, having more youth community service, and more thoughtful use of technology are hardly abstractions.
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However you want to spin it Joe. Many have your number. You’re a legend in your own mind.
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Poor delusional Joseph.
Poor, dear, self aggrandizing Joseph. . . He’s here to save the world when he cannot even save himself or at the very least, recognize that he violates mores of conduct, etiquette, and most of all, critical thinking.
Give it up, Linda, on Joe. GIve it up, Teacher Ken.
You have more of a chance in training a drosophila how to perform neurosurgery than in getting Joseph Nathan to correctly and appropriately respond to commentary without going off into his own laughable and irrelevant tangents . . .
But Joe, I will say this to your credit: You are persistent (= fixated), relentless (= obsessed), full of endurance (= narrow minded), and very brave (= naive and uninformed).
Joe, just be who you are. I don’t have television or cable. I can’t even get reruns of Seinfeld on the internet. Harlan Underhill used to be a wonderful comedian on this blog and I really miss the laughter he’d generate every time I’d read one of his “very special” and ridiculous posts.
I am hoping you can fill his shoes (although that is admittedly a tall order) and make us all chuckle once again.
Diane, if you block Joe, I’m afraid I will have no one to laugh at.
Diane, how can you be so cruel?
I’m a sarcasm addict, and you are talking away my drug . . . . . .
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I do think that Dr. Ravitch is remarkably open minded about the virtue of the moral foundations of an institution that would find it immoral to employ her as a teacher. Here is a good article on the issue: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/23/us/gay-marriages-confront-catholic-school-rules.html
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Will you do anything to take away from the original meaning of this post, TE? You’re pathetic. Hook up with Joe.
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Here’s an important quote from the NY Times article that TE referred to: “The ouster of Mr. Z, as the former vice principal, Mark Zmuda, is known, comes amid a wave of firings and forced resignations of gay men and lesbians from Roman Catholic institutions across the country, in most cases prompted not directly by the employees’ sexuality, but by their decisions to marry as same-sex marriage becomes legal in an increasing number of states.”
Here’s a link to a Frontline story on the “state of the Church’s Child Abuse Crisis.” http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/religion/secrets-of-the-vatican/whats-the-state-of-the-churchs-child-abuse-crisis/
Among the information shared by Frontline: “More than three decades after the initial reports of abuse began to emerge, critics say that many bishops, who have authority over their areas of responsibility, known as dioceses or eparchies, seem more committed to protecting the church than preventing abuse.
The Vatican defrocked nearly 400 priests from 2011-2012 who abused children, according to Vatican figures. But while several bishops have resigned in connection with sex abuse scandals, of those who ignored offenders’ behavior or even intervened to protect them, a scant few have been otherwise disciplined by the Vatican.
“That’s the crux of the crisis,” said David Clohessy, the national director of Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, or SNAP, a victims’ advocacy group. If the bishops have impunity, he said, “there’s no incentive for them to reform. It’s not even in their self-interest to reform.”
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Your beef about Catholic school system or church denomination has nothing to do with teacher(s) who have dedicated their profession out there. Go find elsewhere if you want to bad-mouth its system or religious dogma(and hence, any teachers teaching at Catholic schools are morally corrupted, eh?).
This post is not the right place for your stupid sock-puppeting.
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Ken, this discussion started with a tribute to a Catholic school teacher and an assertion that “the moral foundation of Catholic education.” No one has asserted that “any teacher teaching at Catholic schools are morally corrupted.”
One of the reasons that the number of Catholic schools is declining is that many women who formerly joined organizations liked Sisters of St. Joseph no longer are joining. While there are many reasons they are no longer becoming nuns, positions that the Catholic church (and that Catholic schools are expected to promote) have discouraged some women.
Another reason is that there are fewer Catholic schools is that some families that formerly sent their children to Catholic schools have decided to send them to public schools, both district or charter.
Regardless of your views on charters as part of public education, this is a forum about education in the US. Diane made a comment about “the moral foundation of Catholic education.” We’re discussing what that means.
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Joe,
I can see you’re trying to make an argument that there’s no such thing as “moral foundation” in Catholic school because they are inherently bad–by bringing the episodes of recent catholic church scandal.
Again, what does that have anything to do with a teacher who dedicated her entire life to teaching? She’s from Catholic school you are talking about. Right? Or are you saying that’s different type of Catholic school?
>Regardless of your views on charters as part of public education,
I don’t see them as part of public education whatsoever. Many charters are failing to function as a responsible public unit because of irresponsible school accountability and sub-standard management.
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Ken, I’m responding to an assertion about the “moral foundation” of Catholic education.
The scandals to which I alluded are not new. The 2nd class citizenship for women is not new. The attitude toward gays and lesbians is not new.
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Ken,
I am not a sock pupet. I have only ever posted on this blog under a single name. I am not sure why you think that posting an article about teachers being fired is a statement that those teachers (who want to teach in their former schools) are morally corrupt. In fact I would be in favor of allowing those fired teachers to teach, as I am sure you would be as well.
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Joe&TE
Congratulations! You two are now getting close to receive the “Edupologist” award for your cunning effort to discredit the post.
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Ken,
What post am I trying to discredit? My comments 1) discuss why schools that parents choose might be expected to require less regulation than schools where students are assigned to the school and 2) the firing of teachers because of their marriages.
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TE,
You don’t need bother to reply me to make any excuse for what you and your buddy are doing. You got caught deep in the mud and it will only make you harder to get out.
Ken
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Ken,
It is unclear what “mud” you think I am in. Do you disagree with me that if a government assign students to a school there should be more regulation than when parents choose a school? Do you think teachers should be fired because of their marriage?
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I wish I could of taught that long without the alternatives taking over.
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I think people lump Catholic schools together, We have some well-regarded Catholic high schools in the general area here, but those are both expensive and selective. The local K-8 schools are tiny, generally under-enrolled, and under-funded. They’re really not superior to the public schools here, and without the public schools they wouldn’t have art or music, because their kids go to the public schools for those programs. People generally choose them here because they went there or they have family members who teach or go there or (of course) because that is their religion.. They also pay teachers dramatically less than public schools – we’re talking very low wages, like not enough to make both a car payment and a student loan payment.
Vouchers have really changed the landscape, too. There are now Catholic schools in Toledo.OH where 70% of the students attend on publicly-funded vouchers. Since funds are fungible and the church subsidizes the schools, it’s public funding of religion, whether “choice” proponents want to admit it or not. Because I don’t think the public should subsidize religion (anymore than we already do with tax exemptions) I oppose that.
I’m also not thrilled about funding schools that expel pregnant girls and fire teachers for sexual orientation and pregnancy if they’re not married.
Catholic schools certainly don’t have to take my advice, but I think vouchers are a mistake for them. Catholic schools in Ohio really run the risk of becoming just one more government-funded contractor. I think they’ll come to regret joining that very large crowd.
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We agree that K-12 vouchers are a bad idea.
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I think we are blessed if we are healthy enough and able to work at a job that we so enjoy and be well into our later years – let alone love what we do and BE 100! I had a relative who did just that well into his late 90’s! Sadly, teaching in public schools is no longer a career that teachers would ever stay at for as long as possible… why? THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DO WHAT THEY LOVE TO DO. Teachers are not given professional autonomy nor are they allowed to teach anymore. They are forced to follow rigid top-down dictates they know are harmful to children. And so many of the dictates are nonsensical – like the SLO’s… like spending SO MUCH OF THE YEAR focused on high stakes testing. So happy for this 100 year old teacher but so sad for what is happening in public schools! Perhaps Duncan should be talking with this teacher centenarian – he could sure learn something from her!
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Aaand……the voucher students don’t do any better on state tests than the public school students do in Ohio. but why let that little detail get in the way of expanding vouchers every year! 🙂
http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/02/cleveland_students_hold_own_wi.html
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Sad that a tribute to a good teacher who was not forced to retire had to turn into a debate about Catholic education. And not surprisingly, it’s from the same people who twist the truth about public ed. As for charters, many religious groups are seeing that it’s cheaper to go the charter route. I just wonder if these same naysayers have a problem with Right-Wing Christian schools and Christian-based charters?
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If you are talking about this naysayer, the answer is yes, I have similar objections to those schools as well, and would not generally praise them or their ethics.
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All publicly funded k-12 schools should be, in my view be non-sectarian.
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That’s interesting, Joe, because In my opinion ed reformers have so blurred the line between “public” and “publicly-funded” I think vouchers are inevitable. The one and only reason the Obama Administration gives for not supporting vouchers is “they don’t work” (meaning they don’t improve test scores). Presumably if vouchers “worked” (increased test scores) they’d go to a voucher system.
If the one and only measure of “public” is “what works” then “public” has no meaning.
Ed reformers are already changing their argument (again) on vouchers. They went from “great!” schools to “choice!” and now it’s “Equity!”
Vouchers are inevitable in ed reform. They’re the end result.
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Chiara, as in many efforts to improve education, people disagree about vouchers. Some who have worked for more options within public education also support vouchers. Some (including those who helped write the nation’s first charter law), don’t support K-12 vouchers. That includes me.
Some form of charter law has been adopted in more than 40 states, while the vast majority of states have not adopted a voucher approach. The Gallup poll done by Phi Delta Kappa for more than 30 years shows consistent support for the charter approach and opposition to the voucher approach.
Click to access PDK_Poll46_2014.pdf
I don’t think vouchers are inevitable. I hope they are not. We’ll see.
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And what about the charters that are religious in nature? While they are technically non-sectarian, some charters may as well be religious–they’re just not overt about it. A major example would be the Gulen charters, but there are others from all types of religious traditions.
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K-12 public schools that promote one religion over others should be warned. It they continue to do so,they should be closed.
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Linda and 2old2teach and dianeravitch and Laura H. Chapman and Spanish & French Freelancer and MathVale: If I remember correctly… *Read through to the end!*
A certain commenter has been front and center, leading the charge on denouncing the unconscionable salary of Eva “The Saint” Moskowitz of $ucce$$ Academy fame, being especially diligent in pointing out that she makes 2 1/2 times what Carmen Fariña makes—but only has to look after, max, one eleventh the number of students. Oh my, and that advertising budget that takes money and resources out of her classrooms—unacceptable!
Especially telling when that commenter is committed body and soul to charters.
😏
Add on the railing at that infamous charter practice known as the “midyear dump.” You know, where charters hang on to those irascible test suppressors and unruly behavior problems and hardcore SpecEd kids and ELLs and the rest of the “non-strivers” [Michael J Petrilli] and “uneducables” [Rahm Emanuel] for a month or two until they get their year’s allotment of the monies allocated for them, then it’s buh-bye to those pains-in-the-neck to the local under-resourced over-burdened public schools that now have more students and lowered test scores.
😳
And the umbrage taken at former LAUSD Supt. John Deasy’s treatment of Ms. Patrena Shankling and the terrible damage done to public schools by his iPad & mISIS fiascos. Hell hath no fury like a charter supporter that finds that someone pretending to be a dyed-in-the-wool charterite is an incompetent bully that has immorally abused the power of his position.
😲
And there are so so many other things too where the true colors shone through…
¿? I got it completely mixed up? You mean, the promoters and enablers of the charterite/privatizer movement “stick together like birds of a feather” no matter the cost to their moral and ethical standing? No matter the cognitive dissonance?
My head hurts…
So, uh, all that fuh-fa-rah about Catholic schools is just another diversion in support of the mad dog pursuit of $tudent $ucce$$?
😱
I’ve got to stop trying to finish my CCSS ‘closet’ reading with an insufficient supply of flashlight batteries.
Kind of destroys my faith in the whole charterite/privatizer movement. Next thing, y’all will be telling me that charters don’t really get 100% graduation rates and that Michelle Rhee didn’t really take “her” students from the 13th to the 90th percentile and that Arne Duncan is trying to stop the runaway train of standardized tests.
¿? I got that wrong too? Please don’t put me in a padded room…
I’m going to quit while I’m ahead. Maybe I’ll just stick to every parent and student having the choice of a well-resourced and supported local public school in order to achieve a “better education for all.”
😎
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I have never read and article go as astray as this one. The “astray” is the result of a few individuals who decided to co-opt the story and to purposely go off topic – way off topic. Their co-opted topic is a serious one and I am sure that none of us feel the topic they mentioned is a light one (even if the message is still twisted probably for the sole purpose to draw people in). It is not at all relevant to the story here and has no place here in this article at all. It saddens me that one or two individuals have taken an amazing accomplishment of a 100 year old woman who is still teaching COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC and ignored the story. My thought here is that we all – those who participate in this blog whether agreeing or disagreeing – GET BACK ON TOPIC or ignore those who comment to divert the topic and seek attention. The creator of this blog deserves no less.
I also think that choosing to ignore those who want to abuse this blog is always a good strategy (and I do not mean those who dissent in an honest way and on topic) – a spark goes nowhere if there is no oxygen to make it a flame. I would rather see people who comment in this blog talk about very seasoned educators that they know who have stayed the course – and in public schools these days, this is nothing short of a miracle. I know a few seasoned veterans who are approaching 70 and many retired teachers who bring their expertise back into the system as substitutes (and they are in their 70’s). Given the current climate in public education, I do think it would be rare to find someone approaching 100 in a public school classroom and would sure love to know if there are any out there. There was a piece on the news several months ago about an elderly man who still taught high school math. Anyone have any stories of teachers over 70 in the classroom?
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Your comment is well stated, Art. I have two stories. Both retired the end of last school year. One, a Spanish teacher at my school, was 83 and had taught or been a principal for 53 years.
The other had turned 70 the previous fall and was an amazing English teacher. She taught for 44 years–all in the same school. She taught generations of students, including my own son, who adores her. In January, she had a massive heart attack–a 100% blockage. Fortunately, she is fine. The kids missed her desperately while she was gone. I heard from them all the time: “We MISS (teacher). She really teaches us.” I’ve seen her, all five feet and maybe 100 pounds of her, dress down huge football player boys and at the same time nurture struggling kids and get them to love reading. I watched a student who never did any work memorize and perform Shakespeare–in costume! The Romeo and Juliet scenes, performed in the spring with costuming, sword fights, curtain calls, and small set pieces, are a highlight of the year for students. She tried to come back after her heart attack, but she also cares for her aging parents and a granddaughter, and the stress was too much. We all cried as she left, but were glad, for her sake, that she retired. We all worried about her health.
I doubt we’ll see the likes of that in the next few years. Teachers in my school are retiring or leaving in droves. The school almost never has turnover, but then the district replaced our entire administration this spring. There was no reason for it–we do quite well, even with the levels of poverty that we have. Regardless, the district did it, and over one quarter of our faculty left or retired.
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Why do you think the district replaced the entire leadership? Where are the former leaders now?
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No idea why they replaced the leadership, Joe. The principal is excellent and they moved him to the flagship high school. The assistants are assistants at other schools. This was not a punishment for them–in fact, at least two out of the three got pay raises. I don’t think the district even noticed or cared about what they did to us. I am in one of the highest-risk schools in a district which has real divisions between rich and poor. The vast majority of district personnel and superintendents come from the wealthy end of the district. The poor end has always been ignored–I grew up in the school community in which I teach. I don’t think it was a slap in the face to the school per se, just that they didn’t think about it. And get this: the district replaced one of the new assistant principals with ANOTHER assistant principal about two weeks before school started. The district moved around eight assistants, like musical chairs. And we got caught in that, too. The new administration is fine, but the chaos that erupted after all of this shuffling has not gone unnoticed by our school community. I get asked about it all the time. The school is just not used to this much shuffling. I expect we’ll be fine, but it was still a stupid thing to do, which would NOT have been done if the school was on the wealthier side.
PS: Before you begin saying that charter schools would solve this problem, Joe, consider that charter schools pull all kinds of money from my school, and then we get dozens of kids back during the year, credit deficient and needy, that we get no extra funding to help. The district assumes this, and so we are understaffed, because the district can’t afford to budget for the kids coming back. Of course, we take them and help them, but I have almost 250 students and will have 280 next semester, so it’s really a challenge. There are almost NO charter schools in the wealthier areas, by the way.
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threatened out west… thanks for sharing that! Your comment as that it is unlikely that we will see older teachers continuing into their later years makes me wonder if we might see older teachers returning to classrooms to deliver much needed education expertise (after the “ed reform” disaster finally collapses and the nation is in desperate need of seasoned veterans). Lord knows, there will be so many veteran teachers who were a few years away from retirement when they quit to maintain their sanity. Maybe they will get back into the profession! I can dream!
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I really appreciate this teacher’s longevity, dedication and commitment. BIess her.
I started teaching 46 years ago and I feel that I have been very fortunate to have had a long, rewarding career as an educator. I have no pension, and Social Security does not pay enough to meet even the most basic survival needs, so I will never be able to retire and I will be working until the day that I die. God help me if I have to live to be 100.
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Teachers in public school are forced to spend more time on paperwork than teaching. Individual testing to submit data to the administration instead of teaching and assessing as you teach is one of the examples that slow down knowledge and promote the skills in test taking. I agree with you when you state that: “Isn’t it great to be able to teach without being harassed by state and federal officials and mandates?” The system which allows teachers to focus on education without the interference of the officials produces great results. It is unfortunate that teachers get degrees from highly credited institutions and when they start working some politicians promote what goes against the educational research findings!
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joe Nathan
October 20, 2014 at 7:43 am
Chiara, as in many efforts to improve education, people disagree about vouchers. Some who have worked for more options within public education also support vouchers. Some (including those who helped write the nation’s first charter law), don’t support K-12 vouchers. That includes me.”
But ed reform is as much a political coalition as it is policy. I think they struck a deal in Ohio: religious voucher people would stay within the ed reform coalition as long as they received some share of the pie.
In Ohio that means two things: vouchers to religious schools that are actually keeping the schools open (the schools would close without the state subsidy) and religious organizations renting property to charter schools.
If ed reform dumped vouchers ed reform would lose that whole section of the “coalition”.
There’s 20 years of “data” on vouchers. They don’t improve scores. They expand every year. I think that’s POLITICAL, not policy-based, and that’s also why I’d bet a mortgage payment that Democratic and “progressive” ed reformers will be supporting vouchers if they aren’t already.
Again, the President cannot come up with a single reason to oppose vouchers other than “they don’t work”. He’s the most high-profile Democratic ed reformer. He doesn’t even make any argument defending PUBLIC education. He relies completely on this technocratic “what works” frame that can easily adopt to a 100% voucher system.
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Ms. Madeline Scotto is truly inspirational! Her true colors shine through! It’s unfortunate that this thread was hijacked by the likes of Joe Nathan (who also showed his true colors).
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Wow, Joe Nathan.
You really took a beating on this post today, didn’t you . . . . .
And you have a PhD?
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So now that we know that Joe Nathan is a religious bigot and that he is eagerly backed by teachingeconomist and FLERP! can we all stop feeding these trolls and just let them fade away into the sunset?
How many offensive things are they allowed to say before they are ignored away?
How many threads are they allowed to highjack before we shun them?
They constantly claim they want to engage in dialog but they are broken records of obtuse ignorance, self-congratulation, and offensive rhetoric masquerading as an opinion.
I’m done with the lot of them. I hope most others here are too.
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Well, I suppose just one little nibble can’t hurt . . . .
There’s only one Catholic that I go out of my way not to offend, and that’s my mother.
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Chris,
What did I say that was even slightly offensive? My two posts were 1) that when the government assigns students to attend a school there is more of an obligation to regulate the school than when, like catholic schools, a parent can choose to attend or not, and 2) that at least some catholic schools are firing teachers because of who they married. You might argue that the first point is wrong I suppose, but I don’t see how it could offend anyone. The second point is a simple statement of the facts of the matter.
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Thank you Chris in Florida.
The trolls have been fed so much that I don’t know which swollen bloated parts of them will burst first: their bellies or their egos. . . .
Joseph and TE, please take some Di-Gel. . . . . .
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Robert,
Any actual thoughts about the content of my posts?
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I would happy to comment if you actually had some content . . . .
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Robert,
In this thread my two comments where 1) the reason that catholic schools have relative freedom from regulation is that the students choose the school and 2) that Dr. Ravitch is very broad minded to speak enthusiastically about the moral foundations of a school system that would refuse to employ her on moral grounds because of her choice of spouse.
You think these posts have no content?
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I think creating “Edupologism” blog under his name might be best option for him since no one will likely respond to his petulence whatsoever…
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For every person who comments, would you say a hundred read or is it more like a thousand?
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